Karen Freeman Agnifilo (3:35)

Yeah. Michael Dougherty is somebody who, like Jack Smith, I started at the Manhattan DA's office with and we were Baby Das together. And he is one of those people also like Jack Smith, who was a superstar from the beginning. Everybody knew he was destined for greatness. And he rose through the ranks very, very quickly. He was chief of the sex crimes unit. He became an executive at the Manhattan DA's office and he moved his family. He's got 18 year old now, twin daughters, beautiful twin daughters. And his wife Antonia, who also worked at the Manhattan DA's office, who I knew was superstar. And they moved out to Colorado where he continued as a public servant prosecutor and ended up working for not only the Attorney General's office, he then ran for the Boulder DA. And he's been the Boulder district attorney, the elected DA since 2018. He's running for Attorney General of the State of Colorado. And he's the real deal. He knows what he's doing. He's a prosecutor's prosecutor, but he cares a lot about justice. He cares a lot about people in. He was trained under the same philosophy that I and Jack Smith were trained under. Like Jack Smith said In his testimony today, he started it with, you prosecute cases without fear or favor, and you bring the right cases at the right time for the right reasons. And it's just, he's really substantive and he's just a great guy to bring into the Midas Touch ecosystem and to introduce to everybody because he, he's the kind of person that you want to be a public servant. He's fearless and he's substantive, really smart and extremely ethical. So he also, he's crazy. He's like a marathon runner and triathlete and all these other, all these other things that he does that all I.

Michael Popak (5:31)

Had here is you vouch for him, you worked for him. That's about it for me. And it's a great race, too, because Phil Weiser, who most people, most people know when I went out to Phoenix to meet with the other, we interviewed 11 attorneys general who are Democrats about, they just hit their 50th case filed against the Department of Justice, I mean, against the Trump administration about, about a week ago. But Phil Weiser was on one of our panels. He's term limited out. This is the new open seat and Phil's running for governor. I'd like another attorney general to run for governor. That would be Mr. Banta from California, but that's for another day. I'm glad you're bringing them on. We'll have him on in a few minutes. Then we're going to talk about the Epstein files. We're going to need a bigger boat. Sheriff Brody said on Jaws they, they found another 4 million, 5 million. If they're saying that they had, they have 5.2 million more to go through after saying it was only a million a week ago. Just multiply that, that's 20 million and we'll never get to the bottom of it. That's why the Senate Democrats and the House Democrats have come out firing, asking for the inspector general to do a review of the process and the production. And as Ro Khanna said in his postings today, that means they've only released less than 5% or something of the Epstein files. 100,000 pages that came out on the deadline. We'll talk more about it here on Legal af. Happy New Year, Karen. What are you doing for New Year's with your family?

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (7:06)

Happy New Year.

Michael Popak (7:07)

Thank you.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (7:07)

Low key. You know, it's new. I live in New York City where it's a huge party and tomorrow actually is going to be the inauguration of our new mayor and they have a huge block party that's going to happen Right in front of my apartment building where I live. So. And they're expecting 40, 50,000 people. So I'm actually going to attend the inauguration. I'm really excited, and I'm going to take some video clips that we can hopefully use. And if I can, I'm going to try to get to some really interesting people and maybe interview them. That's what I'm hoping to do.

Michael Popak (7:40)

I'd like to see that. Are you going to the old City hall subway?

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (7:44)

No, that's tonight at midnight. And that's really. That's when he's actually. Because in New York, the changing the guard happens on January 1, so at midnight you get sworn in, and that's just a very small thing at midnight to make the transition official.

Michael Popak (7:58)

The public one, you're going to the bigger one.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (8:00)

I'm going to the public one tomorrow. Yeah.

Michael Popak (8:02)

So I read that Letitia James is swearing him in at the subway one.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (8:08)

Yes.

Michael Popak (8:08)

Yeah. This is. You guys should look this up. This is the old subway stop under City hall that's now ceremonial. Amazing artwork and freezes and. I mean, from the 1920s. Chandeliers. I mean, is this.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (8:22)

It's incredible.

Michael Popak (8:23)

Subway was, like, coming.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (8:24)

Yeah, yeah. No, it's incredible. I've actually seen it. They had to close it down 50, 60, 80 years ago, a long time ago, because it's. There's a curve that if they kept that subway going the way the trains are now, there's too big of a gap between. It would be dangerous between the door and the. And where people get off.

Michael Popak (8:44)

Oh, there's a photo. Look at that photo.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (8:46)

It's. It's absolutely exceptional.

Michael Popak (8:48)

I heard that. Something from a movie that's like, from a Pan's Labyrinth movie or something. And I heard, though, it's still like a turnaround spot for the sixth train. So. True.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (8:58)

It's true.

Michael Dougherty (8:58)

Yeah.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (8:58)

They turn around there. Yeah. So it's still used. It's just. You can't get off there because they deemed it a safety hazard a long time ago.

Michael Popak (9:04)

Well, I'm jealous. But I'll. I know you'll. You'll make good on your promise to take good photos.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (9:09)

My. My bucket list is to get to interview Bernie Sanders. That's what I really want.

Michael Popak (9:14)

Right. He's swearing into the public.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (9:16)

Yes. So I'm sure I won't be able to get to him, but that's. If I had one wish. That's who it is.

Michael Popak (9:21)

Yeah. Well, okay. Talk to Midas. Maybe that can happen. Who knows? Yeah. No.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (9:26)

Yeah. I'm trying I'm trying. So he.

Michael Popak (9:28)

So. So with that buoyant atmosphere in the air, you know? God. Although I did remember four years ago. God, it seems so much longer ago when Mare Adams was standing at the ball at Times Square to get sworn in. That. That should have told us everything we needed to know that he was standing, like, with. Not Dick Clark, who's the guy that took over Ryan Seacrest or whatever, getting sworn in with his picture of his mother. I'm like, oh, boy, here we go.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (9:56)

Exactly.

Michael Popak (9:56)

All right. But we have a very hopeful period here with some amazing people getting sworn in. We've got a new governor in New Jersey and Mikey Sherrill. We've got a new governor in Virginia in. In Governor Spamberger. We've got the new mayor. You know, just. We got a new mayor in the city of Miami who's being. Who will be sworn in. Eileen Higgins, who is the first woman mayor of the city of Miami. We need a woman mayor in New York. Right.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (10:28)

Well, we'll see eventually. Eventually for sure. Yeah.

Michael Popak (10:31)

Do you think I was talking about you, you know, hesitate.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (10:34)

Well, you never know. Exactly.

Michael Popak (10:36)

Oh, are we breaking news?

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (10:38)

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I just every once in a while, I, you know, I think about, would there ever be a public service job that would tempt me to go back into public service? But, no, that. That's. I don't think so.

Michael Popak (10:50)

Police.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (10:52)

You know, I'm good. I'm happy. I'm happy being, you know, doing what I'm doing.

Michael Popak (10:56)

Right. All right.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (10:58)

The mayor of New York City is an incredible job. And.

Michael Popak (11:00)

Salty. Weren't you thinking we were about to break the news? I'm sure he had an asset ready.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (11:05)

No, no, all good. All good. I did my time in public service. I'm very happy.

Michael Popak (11:09)

You certainly did. All right, let's. Speaking of doing their time in public service, Jack Smith, remember him? Special counsel. Only special counsel in history not to be able to report to the American public the results of his investigation. Seriously, you know, special counsel for Nixon, special counsel for Joe Biden and the stupid document thing in his garage. Robert. Her, you know, John Durham, the multiple ones against Donald Trump and people related to him, you know, from Robert Mueller, et cetera, et cetera. And Jack Smith never gets to speak. And we. He's been trying to speak to the American people, gave some interviews abroad with Andrew Weissman that pissed off Donald Trump, apparently. And then Jim Jordan, who thinks very highly of himself, thought that this would be a good matchup between Jim Jordan, who went to law school, apparently, but never took the bar. And Jack Smith, one of the greatest lawyers, one of the greatest prosecutors of all time, and that this would not be a tremendous mismatch when the video was finally released. And so we have nine hours of video. It's up on Legal, a Legal AF sub stack for our paid members. We've got the transcript if you're really interested. Also up on Legal AF substack. And now we've had some time to digest it. And I thought, Karen, we would kick it off the way that Jack Smith kicked it off with a clip from his opening statement that he led off the, the testimony on the, on the 17th of December in the Committee on the Judiciary in the Rayburn building and room 2237 with his, his lawyer sitting next to him. Let's play the clip of his opening statement.

Michael Dougherty (13:04)

For nearly three decades, I've been a career prosecutor. I've served during both Republican and Democratic administrations. And I've been guided by those principles in every role I've held. I continued to honor those principles when I was appointed to serve as special counsel in November of 2022. The decision to bring charges against President Trump was mine, but the basis for those charges rests entirely with President Trump and his actions as alleged in the indictments returned by grand juries in two different districts. Our investigation developed proof beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump engaged in a criminal scheme to overturn the results of the 2020 election and to prevent the lawful transfer of power. Our investigation also developed powerful evidence that showed that President Trump willfully retained highly classified documents after he left office in January of 2021, storing them at his social club, including in a ballroom and a bathroom. He then repeatedly tried to obstruct justice to conceal his continued retention of those documents.

Michael Popak (14:20)

Powerful opening statement, right? Take away from you, Karen, from what you've but for the reporting that you've seen so far on what Smith accomplished and what Jordan thought he was trying to accomplish.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (14:33)

Yeah. So what was really interesting. So I actually, I'm almost halfway through. I've watched it on double speed because it's nine hours. So, you know, if you put it on two times the speed, you can watch it quicker. It's incredible. And I'm so glad they released it and that we're able to watch it. And what really struck me about the beginning and his opening statement was, was first of all, he is the same Jack Smith that he's always been. He is just a good person, a public servant. He cares about the people he works with. He said over and over again how he's there because he thought that the people he worked with, especially the FBI agents, who are the good guys, the public servants, are getting vilified and unfairly attacked. And that when you attack the good guys in life, who are you left with? You're going to deter people from coming to public service. So he really talked about his motivation for coming forward and for wanting to testify publicly. Jim Jordan wanted to make it seem like he was there for bad reasons. And Jim Jordan was questioning him and talking to him and asking him to agree with things that Jack Smith had no problem agreeing with, principles of prosecution and ethics and things like that. And the big takeaway I had was he comes across as being totally forthcoming, wanting to answer as many questions as he can. He has made it clear that he can't talk about the Mar A Lago documents case because there's an injunction from Judge Eileen Cannon saying he can't. And so he was honest about that. When he couldn't remember something, he would say he can't remember, but not in an evasive way. He would say things like even from somebody who was from the Republican Party, who was clearly attacking him or trying to, to do Trump's bidding for him, he would say, well, isn't it true that this happened on this date? And he'd say, I don't have a recollection of exact dates, but if you say so, I take it as true. He wasn't combative. He wasn't trying to only kind of talk to one side and not the other. He was really trying to answer questions honestly. And so I highly recommend people watching it, at least watching part of it again, do it on double speed, because it takes a lot of time to do it, but you get a real good sense of how just earnest and honest he is. And it's such a contrast to when you hear anyone in the Trump administration speak about anything, how they just attack you and fight with you and gaslight you and talk about facts that aren't true, also known as lies. And he's just totally the opposite. And in some ways, it's just such a breath of fresh air because we need more of this and more of people who just want to tell the truth and speak and speak truths of power. The one thing I found really interesting was when you listen, almost every single Republican person who questioned him spent a really long time on the fact that they subpoenaed records, these call records, no content, just who called who on what date of that two day period from or I think it was even like 48 hours or 24 hours on January 6, just to kind of get a sense of what was going on when Trump was not calling off the troops and when he was fomenting violence, et cetera. And they're like obsessed with the fact that you can subpoena those records. Again, no content, no nothing. And so they're clearly self interested, not caring about the American people, not caring about the truth, and really just wanting to talk about themselves because God forbid someone subpoenas just their records of who they called. But I thought Jack Smith did a really great job of fighting back when they asked him about interested parties who they spoke with and building a case against biased people, with biased people against Donald Trump. Jack Smith fought back and said, this case was built by Republicans, this case was built by allies. This is information that we got from people who are Trump's natural allies and from hard evidence. And so that was excellent, I thought. And another thing I thought was really excellent is they tried to say, oh, Trump has a First Amendment right to question an election. And again, Jack Smith was like, the First Amendment's not absolute. He didn't say this, but you're not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater. You're not allowed to basically lie, cheat and steal your way and defraud people. Yes, of course you can question it, of course you can say things and you can bring court cases like you did and you can say things publicly. But what Trump did is next level and he made it very clear that he would have prosecuted under the same facts and the same law, Barack Obama, Joe Biden and anybody else. This was not political and it was just a really, I thought a really great, great testimony on his part. Especially, especially just how he handled him.

Michael Popak (19:33)

Yeah, I, I'm going to show a couple more clips here. The opening statement we've seen for him, he, you know, he made it clear he's angered by the fact that people who are public servants who just doing their job in the Department of Justice and the FBI have been attacked. He said, the person who occupies, you know, the, the highest position in the land has called for me to be jailed. I mean, it was called. Right. Talking about himself for a moment, he said that this was not him going in to a prosecution with a pre determined outcome of finding a crime against Donald Trump. Let's remember that despite Jim Jordan saying that, that Jack Smith is some sort of zealot Democratic zealot that was going to pin a crime on Donald Trump regardless, Jack Smith wasn't Even in the country. Jack Smith had been out of the country for a number of years at the Hague prosecuting war crimes because, and that's why Merrick Garland picked him, so that he could not be attacked for being political. Because I don't know what his politics are. I don't know if he's a registered independent. I forget at the time what happened to. But this is a guy who was out of the mainstream, out of the media world and limelight, doing a, doing his job as a prosecutor in, in overseas. That's why he was brought in. He said it wasn't anything other than evidence, not politics, that dictated the outcome. And for those that have attacked, that attacked or found nefarious, the timing of the indictments. Jack Smith said the timing had to do with the evidence and when we were ready to indict, because we are. Because under the Department of Justice Manual and the rules of Federal prosecution, you don't go after and bring a case as against a president on his way out who's now campaigning to come back as president unless you got the goods. You have to be at, you have to have probable cause to indict that the person committed a crime and you can sustain that conviction through appeal. But Jack Smith went further in the testimony. He said I had beyond a reasonable doubt evidence. In other words, I would have won on the election interference case and I had credible evidence in the Mar A Lago case. In fact, we have a clip on just that point. Let's play it.

Michael Dougherty (22:04)

You just made some pretty definitive statements about, you know, your belief that President Trump was guilty of these, of these charges, is that correct? Yes, I believe we had proof beyond a reasonable doubt in both cases. And doesn't the Justice Manual prohibit prosecutors from asserting that the defendant is guilty of something before a jury makes a.

Michael Popak (22:24)

Determination.

Michael Dougherty (22:27)

If, when a case is pending?

Michael Popak (22:28)

Yes. So, Jack. Okay, so to distract from getting schooled by Jack Smith, Jim Jordan came in there with a pre, a pre disposed approach. And his was to use the toll records issue, as you alluded to, to try to argue that there was some sort of conspiracy. And the problem with that is as Jack Smith corrected him, he says, I didn't get a wiretap, I didn't get a pen register, I didn't intervene. There wasn't a guy in a van, I mean, he didn't say this part. There wasn't a guy in a van with headphones listening to conversations from members of Congress. They had every right to follow the evidence and to see if Donald Trump was using members of Congress who would have been outside their speech and debate protection to interfere with the peaceful transfer of power and slow down certification to give Donald Trump more time to do whatever he was doing, commit crimes, according to Jack Smith. And so to go get effectively the phone bills for members of Congress and senators that only lists phone number originated, phone number called and duration of call without more is not an invasion of privacy and it is not an improper use of toll records. Which Jim Jordan's pissed off about is that he didn't know, because there was no policy that would require it, that they were being, that they were having their phone bills pulled and that they were under investigation in that way. They weren't a target of the investigation, they weren't prosecuted or indicted. In fact, there's an email that Jim Jordan made a big deal out of during the cross examination of, of, of Jack Smith in which he said, oh, you know, you, you, I wasn't even going to be indicted along with the rest of them. Right. That's a proper use of prosecutorial discretion. You're just not used to it under the current Department of Justice. Let's play one more clip of this losing battle between the House Judiciary Committee and Jack Smith. Let's play another clip.

Michael Dougherty (24:36)

The timing and speed of our work reflects the strength of the evidence and our confidence that we would have secured convictions at trial. If asked whether to prosecute a former president based on the same facts today, I would do so regardless of whether that president was a Republican or a Democrat.

Michael Popak (24:58)

So, Karen, what do you think now that the public has finally heard from Jack Smith directly, although not the way we would have wanted it to, which would have been at the time in a public hearing with questions being asked by others, you know, in Congress. What do you think the ramification, why was this important that this finally came to light even though on a holiday day? And what do you think the impact's gonna be moving forward?

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (25:21)

Yeah, look, first of all, just the timing of the release of this shouldn't be lost on anyone. This was released on New Year's Eve to try to bury it. The whole world is talking about 2025 and feel good stories and anything in the news is all the reporters, everybody you could tell are sort of taking today off because they're not refreshing news stories very much. It's very much a, like, you know, stuff that they had in the can before. So everyone can take the day off or the evening off and focus on New Year's Eve and party. So they're burying this. That's why this was released today, number one. Number two, I think that it was interesting because Jack Smith said in no uncertain terms that I believe that Donald Trump is going to come after me if he can. He's going to try to come after me if he can and try to seek vengeance on me. And I thought that was a little chilling. And I think what he's basically saying is, I have nothing to hide, I didn't do anything wrong. I'm proud of what I did. Go ahead. Anything you dish out, I can take it. There's no one tougher than Jack Smith. He can take it, and he's not gonna find anything on Jack Smith. And so go for it. And so, you know, he, I think he was just basically, he was calm, he was cool, he was collected. You know, he was getting the. Setting the record straight. Because again, the Trump administration loves to spin lies. They love to mischaracterize. And I think the record is very clear here. And people are gonna be hard pressed to find anything that is going to be able to be proven as, as false, as political, as unethical as anything other than actually exactly the right thing. But I also think the history books needed to be. Look, he was invited to testify, right? So they asked for this, and now there's a sworn record for the history books. Because Donald Trump buried this, right? He's pardoned everyone under the sun. The cases had to be dismissed. And he's probably gonna. I shouldn't say this. Who knows what's gonna happen to all the records and the right. I mean, there's no clue about whether they'll be preserved or to what extent. And now we have a record from the person who led it, from the person who conducted the investigation of what happened, what didn't happen. And it really amplified his report and put a lot of context into not just the what happened, but how they investigated the case, how they prosecuted the case, how they came to the conclusions they came to, and really how this case stood out differently than any other time when a president, for example, questioned elections. And that's one of the things that he was, that he was questioned about is, well, what about this president who questioned an election? And Jack Smith would say, yeah, okay, they questioned an election, but no one ever did. And then he would list out all the things that Trump did that were criminal and why he deserved to be prosecuted. So I think for no other reason than just his history, this was just an amazing, incredible thing that was done and in some ways, I think backfired for the Republicans because now we have a fuller record of it.

Michael Popak (28:44)

All right. Well, thank you all for joining us on our special New Year's Eve Eve edition of Legal af. We wouldn't want to let our audience down and try not to miss a beat. And we've got a special guest interview that'll be coming up after the ad break and our sponsor break of a dear friend of Karen Friedman Agnifolo, who's running for the attorney general position in Colorado, which is going to be vacant because of term limits. And I think you're going to want to hear from this, this really amazing prosecutor. There he is, Michael Dougherty. And speaking of ways to help on New Year's Eve, as long as you're here, I was pleased to wake up this morning to find that Legal AF substack was number one rising in US Politics on substack. And to celebrate that, I'm extending for another day until tomorrow at midnight, a 30% off sale on legal AF substack. Annual membership brings it down to about $6.77 a month. 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Karen Freeman Agnifilo (35:22)

Welcome back. It is my true honor and pleasure to introduce my friend, my former colleague, and potentially hopefully the future Attorney General of the State of Colorado, Michael Dougherty. Michael and I worked together at the Manhattan DA's office. We were Baby Das together. We came, learned and trained under the same people and he has since gone on to do incredible things in the State of Colorado. He's currently the District Attorney for the county of Boulder and in that capacity he's prosecuted some of the most high profile cases in the country. He successfully prosecuted and tried the mass murderer from the King Super Supermarket in Boulder. He's now called prosecuting the Pearl street firebomber who attacked the Jewish community members on June 1st of this year. And he headed up an investigation into the devastating Marshall Fire that destroyed communities and 1100 homes. He runs, he does these Hundred Mile Trail Run races. I mean, the guy has more hours in the day than anyone I know because in addition to being the District Attorney of Boulder county, he is running for Attorney General and he's standing up for democracy. And today there was so much in the news about Colorado. We had Donald Trump vetoing a bill that was going to bring clean water to southeast Colorado just to retaliate against Lauren Boebert's calling for the Epstein files to be released. We have him pardoning, trying to fake pardon because she was prosecuted in the state. The Clerk who tried to. Who essentially smuggled someone in to make a copy of the voting machine and was not supposed to do that and claiming that the election was stolen and he's trying to fake pardon her. So there's a lot going on in Colorado today, and we thought, who better to have on the show but Michael Dougherty, who worked with Jack Smith like I did, and he also is in the news today. So I thought what a great person to have on and to introduce, really, to the Midas community, because Michael is someone to watch, someone to get to know, and someone who's going to really continue this fight against this authoritarian regime that we're in and fight in Colorado. So, Michael, welcome to Legal af. It's such an honor to have you on the show.

Michael Dougherty (37:57)

Well, thank you so much for having me on, and I appreciate that very kind introduction. And Karen, it is great to see you after all our years working together. And you left out one important part, which is you and my supervisor in the sex crimes unit. I learned a lot from you. And we handled some really difficult, meaningful cases together and helping victims and survivors through the criminal justice process after they've been sexually assaulted. So it's great to see you again and wonderful to be on with you and your team. Thank you.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (38:22)

Yeah. So, Popak. I know, I know. Michael, why don't you, why don't you throw the first question to him?

Michael Popak (38:27)

Oh, you're just here to do the introduction.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (38:30)

No, no, I couldn't. I just figured you're chomping at the bit.

Michael Popak (38:33)

No, no, I mean, I. This is great. I mean, and it fits well with, with sort of our ethos here and try to brief our audience about things that matter, not just at the federal level, but at the state level. I just had Rob Bonta, the California Attorney general, on a few days ago, and the 23 Democratic attorneys general, which you hope to join and, and, and replace, a Democratic attorney general whose term limited out, but running for governor. It told us that they. We just hit a milestone. 550 suits have been filed by the attorneys general, Democratic attorneys general, none of them. None Republican. I'd like to just say attorneys general, but I can't. They're all Democrat. It's a milestone they never thought they would have to reach as part of the 400 or so cases against the Trump administration. But he said, we are fired up and ready to file the next 50 and the next 50 and the next 50 until this lawless Department of Justice and Trump administration is brought to heel. As you're running for office in Colorado, how much do you get into? Like, what do you want the voters to know about your, your agenda, whether you have an agenda, what you're going to do for the people of the state of Colorado and beyond vis a vis the Trump administration, along with Colorado's in own interests.

Michael Dougherty (39:55)

Well, having left the Manhattan district Attorney's office where Karen and I work together, to come work at the Colorado Attorney General's office, I know firsthand the impact and importance of that office on everyday lives for people throughout Colorado. But right now, everyone is aware of the role of the attorney General. I think 15 years ago, if you asked people what does the attorney general do? Often, the answer was limited, if any. But right now, people recognize that the attorneys general across the country, Ag Bonta, Phil Weiser in the state of Colorado and others are the only thing standing between Donald Trump and the rule of law being violated every single day. So we see the Constitution being violated and people being harmed, whether it be in Colorado, California or elsewhere. It's the responsibility of the attorney general to stand and fight for the rule of law and to protect our democracy. And those lawsuits, the number of those lawsuits is actually unfortunate. Unfortunate in that they've been absolutely necessary and required. And you need people with experience, the ability and the fight to stand up and protect our democracy right now.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (40:56)

Karen, Michael, tell us what you think about this veto today and tell us about that issue.

Michael Dougherty (41:04)

Well, what's particularly terrible about the veto is it was a bipartisan bill. And how often do you hear that word, bipartisan in today's Congress? So the idea that it passed the House and the Senate with really strong majorities in both, and it's a bipartisan bill that's designed to bring water to a rural part of Colorado that's really suffering, as you pointed out at the start, Karen, Warren Boebert spoke out against the president's veto. And I think that really highlights how surprising the veto was and also the clear line that's being drawn between the decision to veto the bill and the president being angry and taking vengeful actions against the state of Colorado, in part perhaps because the conviction of Tina Peters, who's a political crony of his, and he's demanded her release. But the idea that we're talking about the president of the United States taking action against the state because he's unhappy with the state in some other respects, to me, defies logic. But it absolutely requires a response.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (41:57)

I think it's also because of the Epstein files, but, you know, because she spoke out against that talk about the Tina Peters case. Tell us about that.

Michael Dougherty (42:05)

So Tina Peters, in a lot of ways, symbolizes some of the things we're seeing in this country right now. Tina Peters was a county clerk in Colorado, responsible for managing elections in Mesa county, which is a largely Republican jurisdiction. And that matters in a moment. But she was caught taking someone in and giving people access and engaging in then an attempt to influence public officials who were investigating the case and responsible for the overall election integrity in Mesa County. When that was discovered, the Republican District attorney, Dan Rubenstein, did the absolute right thing. He realized it was a possible crime. He launched an investigation. He called the Attorney General, Phil Weiser, to ask Phil Weiser's office for assistance on this large, complex major case. So you had a Republican district attorney and Democratic AG uniting and pursuing justice together. And as you know, in the criminal justice system, that's exactly how it should work. It shouldn't be defined by party affiliation or politics. To me, in my career as a prosecutor, it's always been about doing justice and doing the right thing without fear or favor or any concern about political affiliation or political impact. And that's what DA Rubenstein and AG Weiser did. They prosecuted the case, their two offices together, and they did that by presenting it to the grand jury in Mesa County. So, again, largely Republican jurisdiction, choosing to indict the Republican county clerk. The case then went to trial, and she was convicted by a jury, again in a largely Republican jurisdiction, a state prosecution in state court. Which is why the president actually does not have any legal authority to issue a pardon or take any action. Shortly after he took office for the second time, Donald Trump demanded her release and threatened Colorado with harsh measures. That was his quote. If she were not released immediately. I feel like that's something I would have read as a kid growing up in the paper about some third world country, but never about the United States, that a president is demanding the release of someone who's a political crony. To me, that's the height of public corruption. And the AG and the district attorney both have stood strong in saying she should not be released. The president then issued a pardon for her. And as Karen pointed out, the president does not have the legal authority to issue pardons in state cases. So that parting has had, in essence, no impact whatsoever, except once again, undermine the confidence and trust in the justice system and to cause front page news. But it's my expectation that she'll remain in state prison where she belongs for the consequences for her actions, because she's sentenced to nine years in state Prison after being convicted at trial, I was bored today.

Michael Popak (44:39)

So I read Donald Trump's high school roommates filing. Mr. Ticketon, this is the lawyer, the lawyer of last resort for Donald Trump when nobody will file for him in his crazy crackpot theories. He hires or Ticketon volunteers. Literally. They were, they were roommates in a military academy. And he practices law near me here in Miami. I'm not quite sure what kind of law. I've never seen it. I've been doing this for 35 years. I've never seen a brief that was filed in an appellate court, at least by somebody who's a practicing lawyer that cited in an appellate court cited absolutely nothing to the record. No, just, just ticketing about the big lie and fraud in the election with no citations, ticketing on the Civil War and casualties. And like he was watching the, he fell asleep during the History Channel while he was dictating the brief. I don't know what the Civil War and that George Washington in the Whiskey Rebellion would have, would have pardoned somebody like Tina Peters. I think George Washington would have hanged somebody like Tina Peters. Certainly a misinterpretation of the, of the, of the case and of Washington's powers. Again, not one case cited, let alone Colorado case law. But my favorite part, Michael, is where. Talk about a rookie mistake at the end. What he asked your, one of your appellate courts to do is two things, although I don't know how he gets past the first one. He says he wants the court to declare that they do not have jurisdiction or power over the appeal and in the same breath says, and let my lady out of jail. Like, okay, which is it? They have power in jurisdiction or they're going to let your lady out of jail? I don't understand how they can make, though. I don't understand how those two things can exist together at the exact same time. Did you see this brief?

Michael Dougherty (46:32)

I did. And I think it's clear to your point that they're throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. And that's. At the very least, I think they're hoping to keep the president's attention focused on this in an effort to leverage her out of state prison. And again, she was convicted by a jury and sentenced by a judge who recognized when the judge spoke at sentence, he talked about the fact that she engaged in fraudulent conduct for which she showed no remorse whatsoever and that state prison was the right and appropriate outcome for her and the right consequence for her actions. And I think that's so important that the rule of law be upheld right now. And the president issuing this pardon in a state case defies logic, violates the law, and should have no legal effect.

Michael Popak (47:12)

Talk to the as we, as we round out here, this is your opportunity. You've had so many opportunities to speak to the people of Colorado about your being their chief law enforcement officer for the people, the people's attorney. That's one thing I came away with in interviewing your future colleagues at dag, the Democratic attorneys general. How many times they they said and believe it's in the fiber of their being that they're going to be the people's attorney. Talk about what it means for you to be that in Colorado. And, and what is it? If you can have a elevator speech to the people in Colorado voting for you, what would you tell them about why you should be the attorney, the next attorney general for the great state of Colorado. By the way, for those that want to help Michael, we got a link below related to his website and fundraising. Go ahead.

Michael Dougherty (48:03)

Well, thank you for that and thank you for the question. I will say this is the greatest test of our democracy in my entire lifetime. This country has survived other tests in our history, but only because people stood up and fought for what was right. That's why I'm running for attorney general. I've been serving the public throughout my entire career as a prosecutor at the Manhattan District attorney's office and a leader there before coming to Colorado to work for the attorney general's office. So I know firsthand the impact and importance of that office, and I'm passionate about it. And having been an elected DA for the last eight years, I know how important it is to be able to lead a large law office through times of crisis. And indeed, we are living through a time of crisis in this country right now. And for us to weather this storm, we need the right people standing up and fighting with every ounce of our being and doing it with integrity to defend our democracy and the rule of law while also restoring trust in our democracy. And that's why I'm running for attorney general. And as Karen pointed out in that introduction, I've had the responsibility, and I view it as an honor of handling incredibly difficult and serious cases for my community, from the Marshall Fire to the King Sooper's mass murder, the firebombing upon Jewish community members in Boulder, and each time coming out on the other side of those crises with the right output, which is justice for the victims and for the community. And that's what I'm going to do as attorney general, stand and fight for the rule of law because the rule of law is the only thing we have right now at this test of our democracy.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (49:28)

Michael, that's chilling. It's amazing. Thank you so much for saying that. What can people do generally? What can the average person do generally in this fight?

Michael Dougherty (49:39)

Well, a couple things. If they're willing to support the campaign, that would be a tremendous help. I'm working hard to get the word out across Colorado so people are aware of my experience and the ability to hit the ground running on day one. This can't be a learn on the job experience. I mean, if you picture going to the airport and you have two pilots to choose from and one's been flying in storms for 30 years and the other's never flown before, you want to get on the plane with someone who's been doing it for 30 years. And that's what I provide with my experience and the ability to fight for the rule of law and to stand up and fight for justice. So supporting the campaign, volunteering with the campaign, that'd be terrific. But I would also highlight right now we have our nonprofits in our communities throughout the United States under attack. So I was at a nonprofit organization earlier today. They've had their funding cut by the Trump administration. So also supporting our nonprofits through volunteer work and contributions as well. So each of us has a ripple effect on those around us. Each of us has an impact on the community. And right now, for me, it means running for attorney general. But for each one of us, it may feel overwhelming at times. What's coming at us every day in the news and every day from the Trump administration. But it's more important than ever that we stand up and have positive impact and fight for what's right.

Michael Popak (50:52)

Michael Dougherty, running for the what is going to be the open seat to be the next Colorado attorney general on the Democratic side? I was only kidding when I said what would be your elevator pitch. I should have said your stairwell pitch. Now that I that I realize where you're look at the look at this leadership and can do attitude of this candidate that came on legal AF from a stairwell. Reminds me of Karen Freeman. NickNiffalo, your friend. We appreciate you. We'll do everything we can in our power and I'm sure our audience will too, to help get you elected and help contribute to the defense of our democracy and to be a supporter of all things related to the people of the state of Colorado. Thank you for joining us, Karen. Thank you so much for bringing him on with us today.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (51:39)

Michael Come back again anytime. We'd love to have you.

Michael Dougherty (51:42)

Thank you for having me on. Next time I won't be in a stairwell, but I will always have the honor anytime I'm on. It will be an honor to talk with you both. I really appreciate what you're doing and you calling attention to these issues and I was running between meetings. But being able to join you today is an opportunity I did not want to pass up. So thank you so much.

Michael Popak (51:58)

Send a photo of your rig and how you have such a perfect, a perfect propped up laptop. I want to know. Anyway, thank you for doing it.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (52:07)

It's probably on top of like an upside down trash can, which I have done many times.

Michael Dougherty (52:12)

That's impressive.

Michael Popak (52:13)

Thank you all. All right. Thank you. You'll see. We'll see you on the next time. All right, Karen, that was great. Thank you for bringing on. Now I see why, you know, you're a big supporter of his and now by extension, of course, we are, too. Let's get him elected to replace Phil Weiser, who's now running for governor in the great state of Colorado. Let's round out. We're in the home stretch here. Let's talk about the Epstein files. Another, another dump Todd Blanche in the Department of Justice, which by that I mean wink, wink, Donald Trump writing the social media post for the Department of Justice thought nobody would notice on New Year's Eve eve. What's another 5 million, 5 million documents, which really means 20 million. I mean, with the Trump administration, you just have to multiply everything by four.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (53:00)

And it's also not five, it's not five million pages. Right. Each document has multiple pages. So we're talking a billion, we're talking many, many multiples of that, of just pages of stuff to go through.

Michael Popak (53:11)

So eight days ago, our colleague Ben Meisellis going through the 100,000 pages we did get, which represents like 5% or less of the Epstein disclosure. That was supposed to be done by 19 December by congressional act signed by Donald Trump. He says, well, how could they only have 70,000 or 700,000 pages left when I have an email here from the U.S. attorney's office in New York about the Maxwell prosecution between an assistant U.S. attorney and some contractor that says 1.2 million pages or documents are in that. What about that file? Twelve hours later, we have the social media post Department of Justice says we just discovered in the Southern District of New York. You just discovered. You mean Midas Touch just discovered the 1.2 million files we're going to be Delayed everybody. And we're like, okay. And as Ben said with me recently, it's not going to be a million. It's going to be multiple hard drives that they haven't located. How can you ever trust the word that they say? And right on time, it gets leaked. And then a social media post that now they think it's 5.2 million. And they want the public to feel sorry for them because they got to work round the clock during the holidays pulling in 400 more lawyers. That's the original post. That's from nine days ago. They got 400 more lawyers. They gotta pull in from Florida, New York and national Security. Like we should feel sorry for them. And it's all hands on deck. Todd Blanche says, as if he's gonna be there and Pam Bondi is going to be there. You know, all right, what? Okay, so the Democrats are. Her hair is on fire again. You got Ro. Ro Khanna, who said. Are you effing kidding me? Miss my paraphrase. You got 5% or less of the documents who have been produced on time. The Senate Democrats, you know, led by Sheldon Whitehouse and Senator Blumenthal, they've come out with, we want the inspector general for the Department of Justice and FBI. Well, that's. Yeah, there's Rob Garcias to get on top of this and look at the production, the process and make sure it's transparent. And why are things just being found now? Who's in charge over here? Now, I will say one thing. The Department of Justice is not the right agency, but they are the ones to be producing documents like this. They're not built for this. This is not their thing. Sure, in a case they'll have to produce something, but to go through tens of millions of documents round the clock. And I got one last comment. Turn it over to you just to show you this is all a charade to slow this down. Where were the complaints by the Department of Justice, FBI or Donald Trump when the bill that was passed, the Epstein Transparency act, had a 30 day timer in it. I didn't hear one complaint from 30 days. Are you kidding me? Well, that's outrageous. No, because they'd already spent March and April and May round the clock with FBI agents looking through the documents, trying to find Donald Trump documents. So they felt relatively confident they could make it in 30 days until they figured out it's not like we missed the. We only have the tip of the iceberg. They missed the iceberg, but on purpose. It's because they're not motivated or qualified to be searching for these documents. They don't really want to do it. They're not built for it. They lost 5,000 people from their, from their organization. Can you imagine an organization, Karen, that loses 5,000 people that aren't replaced in 11 months and then has to do this? What are you, what's your takeaway about this as our final segment?

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (57:02)

I mean, first of all, it goes to show when people like Pam Bondi have said that she's reviewed the files, it makes you wonder, what files did she review in the Epstein files since she didn't even know half of them existed. Right. So they're just discovering all these files that existed in the investigation. And look, the Department of Justice is used to sweeping huge, complex cases that have terabytes, multiple terabytes worth of discovery that they have to turn over to the defense. They know how to do this. They can do this. But frankly, they've lost so many of the people. Who are the excellent prosecutors, Maureen Comey, for one, who was the lead prosecutor on the Ghislaine Maxwell case, who, if you hadn't fired her because her last name's Comey, there's certainly no substantive reason to fire her because she was by all accounts is an excellent, excellent prosecutor with a great reputation who also had a relationship with the Epstein victims and who could be sensitive to them and what their needs are and what their desires are. But they fire her for no good reason. And so one of the people who had the most institutional knowledge is gone. And there's, there just, there's a lot of people who either aren't familiar with it or who aren't going to touch it with the 20 foot pole or who are just people who are new hires by Donald Trump. I mean, they're going to enlist 400 more prosecutors, that's fine. And they'll do a good job at going through stuff. I'm sure. I still have faith in prosecutors at the Department of Justice, especially the line prosecutors, but they don't know anything about the case substantively. They don't know what means what and what's important to what because they're just going to be looking for God only knows what. And so I really do think that it's such a shame. You're going to see a lot of mistakes made. And frankly, more than anything, I really, really hope if any mistakes are made, they aren't ones that negatively affect the Epstein victims who have really, I think I'm worried about, and I'm worried about potentially their, you know, the retribution that goes on in this administration against, against people who have spoken out against anyone close to Trump or anyone in a position of power that's close to Trump. I just really hope that their perspectives are handled carefully and gingerly and really that they do it well, because I just don't know who's doing that in the Trump administration. So hopefully the people who they bring on in the Department of Justice to do this will be able to do that. But. But like you said, they're going to find more documents, they're going to find more things because nobody knows what's going on here. And again, I just don't understand how they're finding things now when we've been reassured that they've gone through the files, they've gone through the documents, et cetera. So, you know, this is to be determined, but I just think it's the very tip of the iceberg, and I look forward to seeing what comes next because finally, maybe, maybe we'll get some transparency and not just a bunch of pages that are mostly blacked out.

Michael Popak (60:18)

Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, the people that are looking at are not people that are. I mean, they're qualified as in the Department of Justice, apparently, they're national security there. They're in the captured Southern District of Florida office run by Jason Reading Quinones. They're in Jay Clayton's office in the Southern District of New York. They're offering them bounties of extra vacation time for putting in three to four hours a day to look at a thousand pages or a thousand documents. I mean, yeah, I've handled large. I don't know about. Yeah, maybe mill. Yeah, yeah. Millions of millions of documents. There's different ways. There's AI, there's databases, there's platforms. There's. You bring in. You can't do it here, but you bring in, you know, temporary lawyers and paralegals, you know, and that type of thing. But it just shows a complete lack of good faith on the part of the Department of Justice because they're not moving heaven and earth to make it happen. They're not. Nobody's properly managing this with any leadership abilities because all those people have left the government. And so it's left with a, you know, like if I was doing a large production when I was a younger lawyer, which is what you do when you're a younger lawyer in big firms. You know, you'd sit down with a piece of paper and you'd be like, okay, where are all the potential locations for documents? Where would they be? And this is Back when they were documents, not really even electronic, you'd say, oh, in this office, in this office about this matter, about this matter and this hard drive and that we all knew sitting here there was a case against Ghislaine Maxwell. It had had a football field worth of documents. Where are they? You know, it took us to point that out that there was a case that was being prepared by Maureen Comey, as you pointed out, for Epstein before he unalived himself or whatever the phrase is. Where are they? There was a prosecution and an investigation in the Southern District of Florida. Where are they? There are IRS documents, there are postal service, postal inspector documents, there are subpoena response documents. There are FBI search warrant and execution of search warrant documents. I mean you have like a spreadsheet and you check the who's doing this there. I mean it's a complete brain dead organization. It's a dangerous combination. Lawless, immoral, unethical and brain dead. That is a terrible law firm, by the way. The law firm of unethical, immoral, brain dead, you know, and incompetent and, and that's what we're watching. But I feel for the survivors. I mean, Lisa Phillips has joined to do regular work on Legal A. She's one of the leaders of the Epstein survivor movement. And you know, there's a, there's a, there's another thing that Trump is worried about. Many states, including California tomorrow open their window for filing civil lawsuits, civil lawsuits against predators and people who abused these women, now girls, now women and the rest. California's got a two year window opening tomorrow and I've, I've heard on good authority that we're going to be, we're going to be shocked with some of the filings that may be coming out of the Epstein matter. Is Donald Trump continuing to cover up, as he told Marjorie Taylor Greene, for his quote unquote friends so that they don't get sued. So that, and what I said in a recent hot take is states like California should be extending their window to match every day that the Epstein files are delayed beyond December 19 as ordered by the court. They want to play a game. They want to wait a month, extend the deadline to file the lawsuit a month and so on. Six months. Six months and match them because I'm sure that's on his mind about protecting his people from getting sued, protecting the, the rich and powerful predators again by Donald Trump. So anyway, you and I and Midas and Legal AF will continue to follow those things. Everybody in our community, thank you for making 2025, despite all of it, because of all of it. Such a successful result for Legal AF and its ecosystem. The millions of people that have come here. Legal AF YouTube channel is going to hit 500 million views of its work. The podcast Legal AF the podcast regularly in the top 50, 75, 25 of various charts that matter. My new intersection podcast also bouncing around between 20 and 50 on YouTube. The sub stack that we've built in the last year with 125,000 people, over a thousand people becoming paid members off of my sale, my promo sale in the last couple of days. This is all testament and just the volume of content, you know, Ben's volume of content over on Midas, and I join him when I can legally have 12 videos a day. You know, we're talking about 17, 18, 20 hours of content per day just to keep up with the Trump administration and bring them to heel. And that's, that is all because of our audience. And I just, if I give everybody a hug, I would. And I'll leave it all this way, then I'll turn it over you for the last word. We will overcome the rogue, depraved Trump administration together. There's no greater title that you can hold in America than citizen. And join together the way that we are and band it together the way that we are. Through my decision, Legal af, we can do great things. It starts at the midterms. 435 seats up for grabs in Congress in the House. 35 Senate seats up for grabs in the Senate. Right. The hard work has already begun and is continuing here. Stay here together. Truth. Truth to each other first. Truth to power. Hit the rallies, go to, go to the swearing ins, do all the, do the voter registration and then vote. And if you can give us back the House and the Senate, we'll have the investigations, we'll have the oversight, we'll have the checks and balances, we'll have the impeachments, and we'll have the convictions. And if you can give me what I've, what I've now claimed is the sweetest words in the English language right now is a new Department of Justice or a future Department of Justice that we can now see at the end of the tunnel. Right. The light at the end of the tunnel. You give me that. You give us that and I will give you the justice that you've, that you've demanded. Karen, last word for today.

Karen Freeman Agnifilo (66:58)

Yeah. Like, as we close out 2025, it's hard to not look back at this year and have a lot of feelings about it, given that Donald Trump became president this year and it was a very, very challenging and tough year in that regard. But you know, having watching Jack Smith's testimony, hearing from people like Michael Dougherty who are still people interested in public service and who are good, ethical, moral people and being part of the Midas Touch network and community and the community that has been built over these last few years, frankly, I have so much hope and I have so much hope going forward and it's real hope. And I have so much faith in people and in humanity. And just because we see right now a lot of loud voices that are the worst of humanity and that's what we're seeing. And those loud voices also have a lot of power. We have more power and we're going to take it back and we're going to bring this country back to the beauty and wonder that it is. And it's going to start now. It's already starting. And 2026 is going to be the best year ever. I'm saying it out loud because we're throwing it out there and putting it out into the ecosystem and into the ether. We're going to will it to happen. And Happy New Year to everybody and and Popak and everybody in the legal AF and salty who's our amazing producer who's here with us every single week? Who this couldn't happen without you. You're my family. I love you. I love you all and I just wish everyone the most wonderful Happy New Year.

Michael Popak (68:40)

Ring it in everybody. Shout out to the might as mighty and the legal af.

Michael Dougherty (68:54)

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