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- [00:01]
Sponsor Voice
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- [01:31]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
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- [01:37]
Sponsor Voice
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Karen Freeman Agniphilo
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- [02:02]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
It's the midweek edition of Legal af. Karen Freeman, Agniphilo's back. Michael Popak is right next to her. And we're going to cover some of the most interesting and fascinating issues at the intersection of law and politics that's out there. Karen, let's just go down the rundown for today. We start with, well, a couple of things. We're going to start with the Trump administration of the Department of Justice being grilled in the Senate in various ways, including Pam Bondi and new pronunciation alert. Amel Bovey. I've been calling him Emil Bovey for the longest time, but apparently he corrected the record. He is Emil. Emil. Emil Bovey. More importantly, you've got a witness, an.
- [02:49]
Michael Popak
Insider, the most insider of insiders.
- [02:51]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
We talked about it before. Erez Reuveni, who used to be the top of the immigration litigation for the Department of Justice. He had just been given a promotion.
- [03:01]
Michael Popak
On March 14, the same day he now swears.
- [03:04]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Amel Beauvais, now the number three in the Department of Justice and sitting through a confirmation process to become a lifetime federal judge, told the assembled group, including Mr. Raveni, that they were to not.
- [03:18]
Michael Popak
Comply with federal judges orders.
- [03:20]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
They were.
- [03:21]
Michael Popak
They were to tell them to go F themselves if necessary and not tell.
- [03:25]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Them the truth about Trump's use of the Alien Enemies act and where any particular migrant was in a process. We always suspected that judges like Judge Zinnis and Judge Boasberg have gotten pretty close to concluding that.
- [03:40]
Michael Popak
But now you've got an insider witness.
- [03:43]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
We're going to talk about Erez Reveni and the chances of Mr. Bovet to.
- [03:47]
Michael Popak
Become the Third Circuit Court of Appeals judge that he apparently wants.
- [03:52]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
We've got a judge in Tennessee, Magistrate Judge Judge Holmes, who made a determination that the grounds to detain Abrego Garcia, here's another name alert. He wants to be called Kilmer Abrego.
- [04:11]
Michael Popak
So Kilmer Abrego, that she doesn't have.
- [04:14]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
The grounds under the factors that you.
- [04:16]
Michael Popak
Use under federal law to detain him.
- [04:19]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
In the criminal human smuggling indictment case in Tennessee doesn't mean he's going to be a free man or he's going to be released. It just means as it relates to the criminal side, it's got an immigration.
- [04:33]
Michael Popak
Side and a criminal side. On the criminal side.
- [04:36]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
She made a determination and she also made some determinations. Karen, I want to talk to you about about the quality of the evidence that the Trump administration had been using about its MS.13 membership and other aspects.
- [04:52]
Michael Popak
To try to keep him in jail.
- [04:54]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And she had some choice words for the Trump administration. Not the first time we've heard them. Then we're going to turn to what's broken out just today or so.
- [05:03]
Michael Popak
If you listen to the Trump side, you have a defiant judge in Massachusetts.
- [05:09]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Who'S refusing to obey the Supreme Court's order on Friday about to stop his injunction and allow people to be continue.
- [05:19]
Michael Popak
To be deported to third world countries.
- [05:21]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Like South Sudan and Libya without due process. That was sort of the initial headline from the DVD case coming out of the Supreme Court. And now you've got the Trump administration running back to the Supreme Court with a motion for clarification because they don't like what Judge Murphy's doing. Judge Murphy held a hearing and was like, I've read the order and there's.
- [05:43]
Michael Popak
Other orders of mine that have not.
- [05:45]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Been enjoined that need to be obeyed. And we'll talk about what's going on in the battle between the Trump administration and this federal judge. And we have another battle that's related. The Trump administration has sued each and every judge in Maryland federal court, from the chief judge down to Judge Zinnis and the clerk.
- [06:07]
Michael Popak
Why?
- [06:07]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Because they don't like an administrative order that grants a two day stay, basically an administrative stay on habeas corpus petitions being filed to give a judge, a.
- [06:18]
Michael Popak
Real judge, time to get their minds.
- [06:21]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Around and the jurisdiction around. And the stay is to stop people from being deported outside the continental US by the Trump administration, which constantly deports people outside the US in order to avoid federal jurisdiction and oversight.
- [06:35]
Michael Popak
So they've sued in Maryland.
- [06:37]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
We'll talk about that case, including who's going to hear that case if all the judges in the federal circuit have been sued.
- [06:44]
Michael Popak
E. Jean Carroll, back in the news for all the right reasons.
- [06:47]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
She's the sexual abuse victim and defamation.
- [06:52]
Michael Popak
Victim of Donald Trump. That's been proven by two different civil.
- [06:56]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Federal courts, federal juries in New York.
- [06:59]
Michael Popak
And now for the third time and.
- [07:02]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Twice in the last two weeks, it looks like Donald Trump's going to be on the losing end of a decision by the second Circuit Court of Appeals.
- [07:08]
Michael Popak
Moving E. Jean Carroll one step closer.
- [07:11]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
To collecting her total of about $100.
- [07:14]
Michael Popak
Million against Donald Trump. All that and so much more.
- [07:18]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Karen, at the intersection. That's usually when we bring her back at the intersection of law and politics. We got some new producers working with us today, somebody I'm now calling the Admiral working with Salty. But Karen, I'm so, so pleased to see you back in the saddle. Back here on Legal af.
- [07:36]
E. Jean Carroll
It's great to be back. Popak. I really, really missed being here last week, but my, our number one fan, my dad was in town and so I'm just so happy. I had the best week ever with him and my sister. So here I'm back. He left this morning. I'm a little sad, but he's going to be home in time to watch tonight's episode. So that was what he chose his plane flight so that he could watch it live.
- [08:00]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
If one thing anybody's figured out is that the Midas Touch network and its contributors, especially you, me and Ben, love, adore. And we'll go through, you know, brick walls and barbed wire for our families, you know, parents write down the children. And I think, I think people appreciate.
- [08:24]
Michael Popak
I assume people appreciate that.
- [08:25]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I certainly appreciate that in you.
- [08:27]
E. Jean Carroll
I feel very lucky I'm very, very, very lucky. I do have an amazing family.
- [08:33]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
So let's talk about other Mostly.
- [08:35]
E. Jean Carroll
Mostly. Mostly.
- [08:36]
Michael Popak
Yeah, I know.
- [08:37]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I mean the husband you can take or leave, but.
- [08:39]
E. Jean Carroll
Not true. Not true.
- [08:41]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I love your husband, you know, same in a platonic way. On the let's kick it off with let's kick it off with the Brago Garcia and what happened there with with.
- [08:55]
Michael Popak
Judge Holmes, a magistrate judge in Tennessee.
- [08:58]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Court criminal court case the Trump administration conjured up manufactured an indictment about human smuggling off a traffic stop from three years ago in order to give them some fig leaf or political cover to bring him back from El Salvador after they were ordered to do so by.
- [09:20]
Michael Popak
Judge Zinnis in Maryland.
- [09:21]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Hold on to the Maryland thought and the United States Supreme Court 900 but as most, as most people now know from watching Legal af, much of the hard work and laboring or in a federal criminal case is conducted and administered by the magistrate judges in most jurisdictions.
- [09:41]
Michael Popak
There is a federal judge here who's.
- [09:42]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Assigned Judge Crenshaw, but you don't really get to see Judge Crenshaw in the beginning. It's a lot of work that's done by the magistrate judge. And I know you know that world well. So why don't you walk the audience through the we were waiting. We wait, we waited 10 days, which is quite unusual for her to make a decision about whether Mr. Kilmer, Kilmer Abrego, that's what he wants to be called, is going to be detained in a detention center pre trial on the two count indictment for human smuggling or not. And then we can talk about does that really answer the question if he's going to see the light of day?
- [10:22]
E. Jean Carroll
Yeah, well, I mean, look, Mr. Abrego was I remember the filing that Quinn Emanuel did when they said he's one of one, he's a guy who was mistakenly deported. He shouldn't have been deported. He was not here illegally. He has a family here. And the Trump administration said, oops, deported him, sent him away. They tried to get him back. And that's when Trump started being cute too cute by half playing games and just really saying, oh, I can't bring him back or I have no authority this and that. And then of course, when the Supreme Court essentially ordered the Trump administration to facilitate his return back, he found himself in a bit of a tricky situation because he knew all well that he could bring him back. Obviously there isn't a lot that the United States can't do and can't accomplish, but he didn't want to just bring him back and then release him, because then he would be. It would be sort of embarrassing and humiliating. So furiously, I'd love to know how much work they put into looking for something to charge him with or hold him with. And they found, and they dug up an old traffic stop case from years ago that nobody ever brought charges against. And they compared the traffic stop to some phone records, decided that he was driving around a lot of different places, there were other people in the car, and decided to charge him with human smuggling. And I think it was very protective to do this. It was a pretext in order to have some reason to bring him back and hold him. And so they put together this criminal case. They go before Judge Holmes. And Judge Holmes had to essentially apply the law of the Bail Reform act to this case. Because in this country, there's a presumption, you know, we're a free country, so there's a presumption that you get to be released. You know, it's not automatic that you have bail held or jail or money, money, bail, or that you're held in jail pre trial because you are innocent until proven guilty in a criminal case. So Mr. Abrego is innocent until proven guilty, just like any other case. And the judge had to apply the Bail Reform act factors, those three factors to this case is the victim, is there a minor victim who's involved in the case, meaning a victim who is a minor that is involved in the case. Is there a serious risk that Mr. Abrego or any other defendant will flee? Or is there serious risk that he will obstruct justice or interfere with the integrity of the proceedings? This is the same factors that apply in any criminal federal case in this country. In every single case, the judge will apply these factors according to the Bail Reform Act. So this is what's been going on in this case. The judge issued an order. And basically it was very interesting because it was quite long for not actually setting any conditions, but it was quite long in the judge's analysis as to. Because what the judge actually said in the beginning was, look, I'm going to make a ruling. It's largely academic. And everybody agrees that it's academic because whether or not I, if I release him and don't hold, hold him in, the immigration authorities will hold him. Like, one way or another, the government's going to find a way to hold him and deport him. And so essentially, he applies the three factors. He goes into a long, long recitation of the law. What does it mean to be A minor victim. If a minor victim is involved, is it enough that Mr. Abrego had his kids in the car? That's not an involvement of a minor. Can't be. Right. The law can't possibly mean that just because your kids were in the car when, when you were. When you were smuggling people, if you were smuggling people, that that counts. And so he basically said that I'm not going to find that there was a minor victim. I'm not going to. There's no serious risk that you'll flee the country, because the whole point is you want to stay in the country, right? So, like, it's obvious you want to be here. You're not going to flee. In fact, they're trying to kick you out, and there's no serious risk that you'll obstruct justice or interfere with the integrity of the proceedings. And so he basically said the judge found there are conditions of release that can be imposed to reasonably assure the safety of others and the community and that he will return and that there's no minor involved and that they're going to tell us what those conditions are another time. But what was really interesting to me is the government then comes forward and says, you can't possibly do this because essentially, if you release him and he gets out, we will deport him, and therefore, he will flee the country and he can't face criminal charges. But it's so ridiculous, because obviously you don't have to deport him. And so you can't hold him in because. And saying that, oh, you will flee the country. He's not gonna flee. He's gonna be forced out of the country and not face criminal charges. So pick one government. It's sort of this weirdly absurd argument that the government's making, but that's where we are. And so in this, for now, he's going to be released with conditions, and I'm sure he's gonna be held in immigration custody, and we'll see what the government does from there. I mean, it's like. It's like everyone. It's like a chess game, and everyone's trying to one up each other and find some way to play this game.
- [15:59]
Sponsor Voice
The.
- [16:00]
E. Jean Carroll
The Abrego Garcia. Mr. Mr. Abrego's his. His little situation that is quite a quagmire continues. And, and I. I don't know where this is going ultimately, but we'll see. We'll see if he'll stay in this country and face these charges to see if they're actually real, to see if there is something there, or if he'll be sent back to El Salvador or who knows, who knows where this is going?
- [16:25]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
It's not going to be sent Salvador. I think everybody agrees that he'll be.
- [16:29]
Michael Popak
Removed at the rate that they're going on the immigration side, which Judge Holmes noted.
- [16:34]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And she said, look, I. In her order, she said, people might think this is an academic exercise. It's not. I take seriously.
- [16:44]
Michael Popak
This is my paraphrase of her order.
- [16:46]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I take seriously when we're talking about pretrial detention and the presumption of innocence. And she also made a point of talking about the difference between human smuggling and human trafficking, because those words have.
- [17:01]
Michael Popak
Been used interchangeably, but in her mind, they're not.
- [17:03]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And in the penal code, they're not.
- [17:04]
Michael Popak
Human smuggling is sort of collaborative.
- [17:07]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
You know, the person wants to be smuggled, you want to smuggle them. It's transactional. Nobody's being exploited. Trafficking, you're exploiting somebody usually related to a sex crime. And there's a big difference in how.
- [17:20]
Michael Popak
The penal system treats it.
- [17:22]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
She said, I've looked at the punishments that have been given to human smuggling charges in this district in Tennessee, and it's like 12 months. It's not nothing, but it's not such a crime that it would encourage somebody.
- [17:38]
Michael Popak
For instance, to flee. She also did a fair amount of.
- [17:40]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Time doubting and criticizing the evidence, put on what she called double hearsay, sometimes triple hearsay. She totally shot down, which was good because we've never had a federal judge look at it.
- [17:53]
Michael Popak
We've seen Pam Bondi violate the Department.
- [17:55]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Of Justice manual, crap all over Mr. Abrego, call him effectively a child molester, child pornography, bad marriage, a smuggler of children. I mean, everything that's not in the indictment and try to get away with it. And they're constantly talking, including Trump, whenever he's cornered, on the issue about Ms. 13, membership in this terrorist gang and all of that.
- [18:23]
Michael Popak
And she completely refuted having heard the.
- [18:25]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Evidence, having at least had the transcripts.
- [18:28]
Michael Popak
Of the testimony of confidential informant number.
- [18:30]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
One, two and three presented to her through an agent. She said, we have problems here. Confidential informant one is staring down the barrel of a 30 month sentence on his fifth, on his second felony and his fifth deportation. And now he's being given the golden.
- [18:48]
Michael Popak
Ticket of not being deported.
- [18:49]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
If he rolls over on Mr. Abrego. I got a problem with that. Two, the other two are related to the first guy and obviously are also incentivized and biased to roll over on Abrego.
- [19:03]
Michael Popak
In order to cut their own deals.
- [19:04]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
He says, so and it's secondhand. I don't have these people in front of me. So it's, it's, it's, it's double hearsay. And she said in particular on Ms. 13 membership, they're not even consistent with their own testimony. They're inconsistent among the three of them.
- [19:21]
Michael Popak
About whether he is or is not in MS.13.
- [19:24]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
So I totally, totally throw away basically.
- [19:27]
Michael Popak
All of the testimony about it.
- [19:29]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
The agent doesn't know anything firsthand. He'd only investigated the case for three weeks before they brought the indictment. Three weeks, three, two years after it happened. So she's like, no, not going with that. And when they started to try to, you know, they wanted to keep them in federal detention pre trial on the crime as, as compared to detention on the, on the immigration side, on the removal that they're trying to do for the second time, this time from the United States. She said, what's the evidence on the 15 year old being involved and therefore being involved, you know, a minor, that's.
- [20:03]
Michael Popak
A minor crime, so to speak.
- [20:05]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Oh, well. The cop, during the stop did a roster of what was happening in the car and asked everybody to write down their birth dates. She said, okay, do I have that doc? Do I have the boy? No, what do you have? I've got the handwritten.
- [20:18]
Michael Popak
We're already in here, say world.
- [20:19]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I've got the handwritten photocopy of it. She says, and the handwriting is terrible. If that's a seven instead of a one, he's, he's above 15, he's over 18.
- [20:30]
Michael Popak
This can't be your only evidence on this issue.
- [20:33]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And also, that's not how the statute works when it comes to minors being involved. This is not an exploitative thing. He was in that car, he's trying.
- [20:40]
Michael Popak
To cross the border.
- [20:41]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And those would be the charges. So it's really the first federal judge to take a look at the evidence that the Trump administration and Pam Bondi have been free riding on because they're not sworn, they're not under oath, and they just say things out loud, say crap out loud.
- [21:00]
Michael Popak
So.
- [21:01]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
But she's also very pragmatic. She said, he's probably, we all agree he's not getting out. He's just going to be transferred from one federal van to the next and be held in immigration purgatory, immigration detention, while they work on a removal to a country not named El Salvador, which they're probably, I'm just going to manage expectations there. They're going to be successful. But this time he's in the United States with due process, with lawyers and.
- [21:30]
Michael Popak
A process that has to be abided.
- [21:32]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
By with an immigration judge sitting over it. So I don't know if it's six months or a year. And I don't know what the defenses are. I'm not the defense lawyer for these guys.
- [21:40]
Michael Popak
Maybe they have very good defenses here on removal. But at least he has his day in court.
- [21:46]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
As we segue into Maryland, where Donald Trump has sued all the judges, including Judge Zinnis, who is not only still presiding over the removal to El salvador issue of Mr. Abrego, but is seriously considering contempt. And now she's been sued by Donald Trump. Let's pick up with that when we come back from our break. We'll talk about the new suit. Who's going to preside over that suit now that all the judges have been sued there and they all have apparently now have a conflict? What is the impact on Judge Zinnis.
- [22:20]
Michael Popak
With the Abrego Garcia case?
- [22:22]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
What is the impact of the insider whistleblower who got fired by the Department of Justice for telling the truth to Judge Zinnis and what he had to say about people who are still in the Department of Justice, including one who's being put up for and is in a confirmation process to be a lifetime federal appellate court judge for the Third Circuit. We'll talk about the United States Supreme Court's order. But now maybe a little Easter egg inside of the dissent by Judge Sotomayor picked up by Judge Murphy in Massachusetts and what the Department of Justice and Donald Trump is doing or Solicitor General is doing about it with a new motion to the United States Supreme Court. And we'll end it all on E.
- [23:06]
Michael Popak
Jean Carroll, one of our favorite plaintiffs.
- [23:10]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Who deserves every penny, if not more, for what? For how she was sexually abused and defamed and continues to be defamed by Donald Trump. She was a guest with Ben on with with Robby Kaplan on the Midas Touch. We had Roberta Kaplan, God, it was three years ago. You can believe it when the Dobbs, when the Dobbs decision came out that day. We had Robbie Kaplan then, but we're going to pick all of that up. But now we got to talk about the ways you can help support the channel and the show and us. There's that here's the bill paying part. So there's a number of ways Midas Touch went over on the odometer. They'll say it wasn't on our show. I think it was to the 5 million subscriber base, which is fantastic and already on their way, as Ben likes to say, to 6 million. So subscribe to the Midas Touch Network. We have a Legal AF YouTube channel. We call it Legal AF Legal AF MTN from Midas Touch Network that I curate. We've got a dozen dozen contributors there. We're doing 1012 videos a day at the intersection of law and politics. But we need your help to get. We gotta cross the 700,000 threshold and then the million threshold before the summer's over, but only with your help. Hit the subscribe button. On Legal AF, the YouTube channel. We have a Legal AF sub stack. So every time we talk about one.
- [24:24]
Michael Popak
Of these cases, the filing, the motion.
- [24:26]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
For clarification with the United States Supreme Court, the lawsuit that was filed by Trump against the 20 or so lawyer, lawyers, judges in Maryland, you know, the, this filing this, the order by Judge Holmes, where do we, what do we do with it? We, we digest it, we use it, we use it on our hot takes, but then we post it so you can see it yourself with commentary and other writing and other reporting on the Legal AF substack. And we need help to continue to grow that. So legal a substack is another way to support things there as well. Of course, the YouTube and the podcast itself always could use a little love. We got the audio world, which is. Some people are like, wow, you're on audio too. Yeah. And some of the audio people are like, you guys do this on YouTube? So we need the two of those groups in our community to meet and download more audio downloads, leave five star reviews. That really helps us watch video, send off clips, you know, get people to grow with us organically. So that is the way internally, since we all are vibrating on the same frequency to support what we are doing here in this pro democracy without outside investors, independent analysis and commentary, set of channels. And then we've got our. We call them the Pro Democracy sponsors, Karen, as you know, because it's shorthand for they know what we're going to say. Well, they don't know exactly what we're going to say.
- [25:54]
Michael Popak
They know what our point of view is. They know who we are. They have five years of a body.
- [25:58]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Of work with Legal af and yet, and not. And yet not in spite of, because of.
- [26:04]
Michael Popak
They know our audience and they know.
- [26:06]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
What we, what we bring to the table in this very important time to our democracy. They've, they've sponsored us and they've advertised with us. And so we like these products. Jordi puts it together, he curates it for us. We try them out and we're not telling people to spend money they don't have, trust me, in this economy. But if you have some disposable income and this is addresses something that you've always wanted to try or that's in your life, we think this is a good place to start and our sponsors would appreciate it. So let's take a break. For our first word from our sponsors, I want to talk about something that's.
- [26:34]
Michael Popak
Really changed my mornings Mud Water if.
- [26:38]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
You'Re like me and you're trying to.
- [26:39]
Michael Popak
Cut back on coffee jitters but still.
- [26:41]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Want that focus and energy, this stuff.
- [26:43]
Michael Popak
Is a game changer.
- [26:45]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Their original blend mixes cacao, chai, turmeric and adaptogenic mushrooms. Like Lion's Maneuver, it gives me this.
- [26:52]
Michael Popak
Steady, calm energy without the crash or.
- [26:54]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Brain fog I used to get with coffee.
- [26:56]
Michael Popak
I love that it's 100% organic, vegan, no sugar and honestly it tastes amazing.
- [27:01]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Great hot or even over ice.
- [27:03]
Michael Popak
Sometimes I add a little honey or.
- [27:05]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Creamer just to switch things up.
- [27:07]
Michael Popak
Compared to other mushroom blends I've tried.
- [27:09]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Mud Water feels way cleaner and balanced.
- [27:12]
Michael Popak
Plus they have caffeine free options if you want.
- [27:15]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
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Seriously, check it out. Mudwater.com legal AF make the switch to.
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Karen Freeman Agniphilo
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E. Jean Carroll
Also part of this SPF as well.
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E. Jean Carroll
But that's not all.
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E. Jean Carroll
Peptide which targets the accumulation of these.
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E. Jean Carroll
So I'm a big fan.
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- [30:19]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Welcome back to Legal AF at the midweek.
- [30:21]
Michael Popak
Karen Freeman, Nicknifflo, Michael Pop, those were our amazing sponsors.
- [30:24]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
We thank each and every one of them. Take a moment and hit the subscribe button for Legal AF, the YouTube channel.
- [30:30]
Michael Popak
And the substack as well.
- [30:32]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Karen I wake up this morning, I start a lot of my hot takes that way and I get this blast on my, on my text chain and.
- [30:43]
Michael Popak
I look at it in my different.
- [30:44]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Feeds that I use to prepare and it says trump administration sues every judge in Maryland Federal District Court. What I know they're not happy with.
- [30:56]
Michael Popak
Maryland's Federal District Court.
- [30:58]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
It's a bluish location. It is moderate, it's a little bit liberal and they don't like the rulings they're getting out of there they've been fighting and telling judges like Judge ZINNIS.
- [31:09]
Michael Popak
In the Mr. Abrego case the pound.
- [31:11]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Sand to go effectively. We'll talk about this in a minute.
- [31:14]
Michael Popak
Go F themselves.
- [31:16]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
They don't like other rulings that have been coming out of Maryland. And maybe they think they've come up with a way, knowing that Judge Zinnis.
- [31:23]
Michael Popak
Is about to find them in contempt.
- [31:25]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
The second, the second judge to do it after probable cause finding by judge, Judge Boberg in D.C. knowing that, knowing they don't like the decisions, they stumble across something that happened at the end of May. It's like, all right, we're glad you woke up. You know, Rip Van Winkle and the chief judge issued an administrative order to.
- [31:52]
Michael Popak
To address a number of things that.
- [31:54]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
The judges were concerned about, mainly even up to the Supreme Court, that the Trump administration was hell bent on deporting and removing people without due process, sending them to foreign countries and then looking.
- [32:07]
Michael Popak
The court in the eye and saying.
- [32:09]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
You don't have any jurisdiction because we.
- [32:11]
Michael Popak
Might have violated the Constitution or a.
- [32:13]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Statute or a law, but you don't have any ability to do anything about it. Haha. And taunt them. They're literally taunting them.
- [32:21]
Michael Popak
And so to avoid that and to.
- [32:22]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Enforce or to reinforce what the Supreme Court has said to judges like Judge Zinnis in the, in the court and to Support what the 4th Circuit Court.
- [32:34]
Michael Popak
Of Appeals itself, through Judge Wilkerson has.
- [32:36]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Said a couple of times, which is.
- [32:38]
Michael Popak
Federal court judges like Judge Sinis in.
- [32:41]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Maryland and other places have to do all they can do to preserve and protect their jurisdiction over related to habeas corpus and due process related to migrants, undocumented illegals, whatever you want to call them. So they came up with a plan.
- [32:58]
Michael Popak
They know that these writs of habeas.
- [33:00]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Corpus, which is exactly what the Supreme Court has said, needs to be filed, sometimes get filed at odd hours. Takes a minute to spin the wheel and assign electronically a judge for the judge to see the petition, for the judge to make an emergency ruling.
- [33:15]
Michael Popak
So they said, we're going to put.
- [33:17]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
An administrative stay in place for 48 hours. After a petition is filed in Maryland, there will be an automatic stay to give the judge effectively time to figure out the petition, the jurisdiction, and to make sure that person doesn't get sent in the middle of the night or otherwise to a foreign country purposely to evade federal jurisdiction and oversight. Seems pretty consistent with both the Supreme Court precedent, the orders of the fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. What's happened to Judge Zitis's and others courtrooms. But, but to Donald Trump, it's an assault. Talk about calling the kettle black. It's an assault on the injunction rules, the All Writ act, they're not allowed to do that. So he has sued in their official capacity, every judge and the clerk, to try to overturn this, this administrative order, which he conveniently misstates. If you were to read the complaint, Karen, and I know you did, it says effectively that the order would prevent the Trump administration from moving these people around the United States and it puts a hardship on the US in its.
- [34:32]
Michael Popak
Negotiations with foreign governments.
- [34:34]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Like, what are you even talking about? It just says for 48 hours, don't move them out of the United States. The fact that they can't read is scary. Why don't you pick up from that filing and then we'll talk about what kind of judge and who picks the judge is going to end up being the judge over this particular new complaint.
- [34:52]
E. Jean Carroll
Look, I mean, let's just zoom out for a minute and talk about the big picture. The fact that you have a federal judge, the chief judge of a district, issuing an order that applies to all future cases that basically says if any of these other habeas corpus cases come in, Press pause for 24 hours before they can be expelled from the country or 48 hours, whatever it is, from the country. It's just short, tiny little period of time to give them the due process that the Supreme Court has already said that they are entitled to. He's not saying you can't send anyone out of the country ever. He's not saying that Donald Trump can't do what he wants to do. He's just saying he can't do it in the middle of the night without giving them notice and an opportunity to be heard. Just a tiny little brief period of time. But the fact that you have the chief judge of a district of, I think, what, 14 or 15 judges who had to issue this and say, this applies to all cases here, and then Donald Trump comes forward with his administration and sues all those judges to try to stop it. It just highlights how broken this relationship is between two of the branches of government. It's just absolutely broken. There's no trust. There's no, I mean, essentially what the chief judge there is saying is, I don't trust this admin to follow the law. I don't trust them to follow the Supreme Court that says you have to give them 24 hours or you have to give it a period of time. Right, for this due process. So that they can call their lawyer, go to court, try to challenge it, whatever it is. You can't just take someone out in the middle of the night in this country and send them to a country they've never been to before, that has no relationship whatsoever to their home country. And they might not have ever been there before. You have to give them some, some kind of meaningful opportunity, just a short period of time. And so just the fact that they already don't trust the administration to do that, and then that this administration then had to file this lawsuit, I mean, it's just really stunning to me that the breakdown in the relationship is just crazy. And it's just, it comes on the heels of the Trump administration constantly trying to delegitimize all the judges and constantly just really calling them names and just ridiculing them and being very unprofessional. But that's what he does. He goes after individual judges. And it's just this whole broken relationship between two branches of government. And Trump just really seems to be delegitimizing the entire judicial branch. So that's the sort of zoom out version of this that I find really stunning. But then, as you said, Trump files the same lawsuit, or the, the administration files this lawsuit saying that the, that the chief judge who issued this order, Judge George Russell is his name, that he. That is intruding on the White House's inherent powers to, quote, enforce the nation's immigration laws, and goes on to say this lawsuit involves yet another regrettable example of the unlawful use of equitable powers to restrain the executive. Specifically, defendants have instituted an avowedly automatic injunction against the federal government issued outside the context of any particular case or controversy. Now, the reason that sentence, the reason I wanted to read that is normally cases need to, in order for a court to issue an order or ruling, you have to have a case or controversy in front of you. And this is really prospective in looking at the future. And that's what they're going to try to get at here, saying, look, he's issuing this order. There's nothing before them. He's talking about hypothetical future cases. But that's where this is so significant that this judge felt the need, because again, just reading the writing, seeing what's happening across the country, seeing what's happening in other courtrooms, seeing people getting airplanes that are taking off despite court orders, seeing people whisked away in the middle of the night, there's just no trust that exists anymore in this relationship. So I thought that was what was really Interesting about all this. And as you said, what this administration basically said was, okay, I'm bringing this lawsuit, and I'm asking the appellate court to put a different judge in charge of this lawsuit, because I'm suing all the judges in this district. And it's going to sort of an interesting thing to do, because if you don't like a particular judge, what are you going to do? Sue them. So to disqualify them so that you can then get a new judge. So I think it's going to be really interesting how the appellate court looks at this. And regardless, any judge that gets this is going to see right through that kind of foreign shopping thing. You can't just sue an entire district.
- [39:45]
Sponsor Voice
But we'll see.
- [39:46]
E. Jean Carroll
We'll see what happens. Trump is breaking all the rules.
- [39:48]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Yeah. I mean, technically, procedurally, if you wanted.
- [39:51]
Michael Popak
To do it, you sue the administrator.
- [39:52]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
You sue the chief justice judge about his administrative order. Not all the judges, they admit in the body of the complaint that the clerk is issuing off the administrative order.
- [40:03]
Michael Popak
An administrative stay. They want to make it into an injunction.
- [40:08]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I mean, it is an injunction in.
- [40:09]
Michael Popak
The sense that the administrative stay says.
- [40:11]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Enjoin, but it really is in the.
- [40:14]
Michael Popak
Way of an administrative stay, which is sort of the lowest level, temporary stay.
- [40:19]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
We've talked about this on Legal af, a lot of, you know, sort of.
- [40:22]
Michael Popak
The food chain hierarchy of stays.
- [40:25]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Administrative stay for hours or days. Temporary restraining order, weeks, maybe two or.
- [40:32]
Michael Popak
Three weeks, could be a month. Preliminary injunction from that moment till the end of the case, permanent injunction, end.
- [40:38]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Of the case, until the end of eternity.
- [40:41]
Michael Popak
That's how that works.
- [40:43]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
So that's who you sue. But you're right, they wanted to sue. Judge Zinnis particularly, and another judge there.
- [40:50]
Michael Popak
Judge.
- [40:51]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I want to say Chung, because they're in hot water with both of those judges, Zinnis in particular, especially after Zinnis has now learned what she always suspected, which is that Amy Emil Bovey, whatever his name is, instructed a lawyer and others that are in front of her, including Drew Ensign, instructed them to effectively not comply with federal court order and.
- [41:21]
Michael Popak
To tell them to go F off.
- [41:22]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
That's Emil Bovet's words. Now, during his confirmation hearing, he denied it. He said, I'm just. I love Matt. It was. It was like a Matlock moment. I'm just a. I'm just a lawyer.
- [41:32]
Michael Popak
From a small town.
- [41:34]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Like, what's what? Small town, New Jersey.
- [41:37]
Michael Popak
I'm from Jersey.
- [41:37]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
It's not a lot of small towns here. I'm just a lawyer from a Small town. I deny everything that was said.
- [41:44]
Michael Popak
I would never tell anybody to violate federal court rules. Really? Really. That's why they went after him.
- [41:51]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And I think the Democrats did a good job today with, well, what about the Eric Adams indictment that you dropped in order for him to play ball on your immigration policies. That led to the departure, the noisy departure of a series of senior prosecutors.
- [42:04]
Michael Popak
Including the acting head of the office.
- [42:07]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Who wrote a 10 page letter attacking you and your ethics.
- [42:10]
Michael Popak
And Erez Reuveni himself being fired because.
- [42:13]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
What was his crime? He told the truth. He told the truth to a federal judge, Judge Sinis, and she commended him for it. He said point blank that Mr. Abrego was illegally deported by ICE even though they knew he had an order of non removal to El Salvador from a federal judge, an administrative judge nonetheless, but a judge, an immigration judge, and they did it anyway. And now in every order we've ever seen about Abrego, it says he was illegally deported or removed, including the United States Supreme Court saying the same thing. And that's because Mr. Raveni told the truth. And so that's another reason. Now, how does the judge get picked? There's a statute. There's always a statute in the law for how you pick a judge in this scenario.
- [43:01]
Michael Popak
And the chief judge of the Fourth.
- [43:03]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Circuit Court of Appeals, Judge Diaz, who is, I think, an Obama appointee, he.
- [43:08]
Michael Popak
Has to choose another judge from the 4th Circuit.
- [43:13]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And here's where the forum shopping comes in, which includes North Carolina, South Carolina and West Virginia. He's got to pick another judge in there who doesn't have a conflict.
- [43:24]
Michael Popak
So you can see Trump already going.
- [43:26]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I go from the blue state of Maryland to the red states of, you know, purpley of North Carolina and red of West Virginia and West Virginia, South Carolina, I'll take it.
- [43:36]
Michael Popak
So it is a way to get.
- [43:37]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
The motion in front of a more favorable judge. But that is what's going to happen. And then that judge is going to have to hear the arguments. Here's the other issue that's up. Who's going to represent the judges? Not the Department of Justice.
- [43:50]
E. Jean Carroll
That's a good question. Who is going to represent the judges?
- [43:52]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
They're going to have to use a budget and go higher. There's going to be a pro bono law firm. Let me think who that would be. How about Jenner and Block, Wilbur Hale.
- [44:02]
Michael Popak
Sussman, Godfrey and Perkins Coy or other.
- [44:05]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Firms right behind them that are Robbie Kaplan. There's going to be firms that are going to stand up and volunteer. Donna Perry I can think of a million firms that would step up to represent that group.
- [44:15]
Michael Popak
They need a lawyer.
- [44:16]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
They're not lawyers. They're judges. So you're going to see a, a group of public interest type law firms or law firms who are not scared of the Trump administration step forward. I keep going. Quinn Emanuel, you know, representing the American Bar association in the Abrego Garcia. Well, they couldn't do it because they're in the Abrego Garcia.
- [44:39]
E. Jean Carroll
Also. They need 14 judges. I mean, 14 lawyers, right. They're each gonna.
- [44:43]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I think they're all similarly situated.
- [44:45]
Michael Popak
1.
- [44:45]
E. Jean Carroll
Yeah, but they'll probably hire their. I think they'll hire. Why not?
- [44:48]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
All right, you and I'll fight that out.
- [44:50]
Michael Popak
I think they get one law firm to, you know, with a joint letter.
- [44:53]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
You and I have done joint engagement letters that says, well, you're all the same boat. Seek the dismissal right away of the individuals and keep just the judge, the chief judge. But this will be fun to watch. But while we're watching, do you think.
- [45:05]
E. Jean Carroll
Really quick, do you think Trump is going to take one of his billion dollars worth of pro bono legal service services that he shook down the other law firms? Do you think he's going to use one of those firms? I think this is going to play out a battle of the fancy law firms. That's what I think.
- [45:21]
Michael Popak
Well, that's very interesting.
- [45:22]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
You know what? We should do another hot take on you and I together after we do a little bit more research.
- [45:26]
Michael Popak
I haven't heard.
- [45:28]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I haven't heard anything about how that billion dollars of free public service pro.
- [45:34]
Michael Popak
Bono work is being used.
- [45:36]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Have you heard of a case that. Where a big, I mean, they're not going to advertise it. Where one of these big fancy firms.
- [45:42]
Michael Popak
That was shaken down and bent the.
- [45:43]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Knee, where they're doing actual work for.
- [45:45]
Michael Popak
Donald Trump in the courtrooms?
- [45:46]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I haven't.
- [45:47]
E. Jean Carroll
Yeah, no, I haven't either. I haven't either. But I think one of the law firms that fought and won against the Trump administration is going to raise their hand and say, I want to represent the judges and go against one of these other. We'll see how this plays out. But I think this one is going to be one to watch because this is a big deal. You're suing an entire district of federal judges. This is a huge, huge deal. This is so different than representing somebody who might be here illegally or representing, you know, this is just a different type of defendant. I think that lawyers are going to want to be on the right side of and look, also guess what other district judges are going to notice that these are the firms who are standing up for their brethren. And that's going to make a big deal. So I think every, you're going to see a lot of lawyers who are going to sign up for this.
- [46:39]
Michael Popak
Great.
- [46:39]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I just, I just did an interview.
- [46:41]
Michael Popak
Today that'll be up tomorrow on Legal.
- [46:43]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
AF with Sky Perryman, who's this president.
- [46:47]
Michael Popak
And CEO of Democracy Forward.
- [46:50]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And we were there to talk about a brand new filing that they did in federal court in Texas, where the Trump administration, this is another page out of their playbook, is conspiring and colluding with red states to try to take laws off the books by having the attorney generals of those states enter into phony settlements and consent decrees to to declare that laws on their books are illegal, to try to do an end run around the legislature and the will of the people. So there's a DREAMER act in Texas that a DREAM act that's been on the books since 2001 with, with Governor Perry. Speaking of Perry's with Governor Perry and.
- [47:35]
E. Jean Carroll
He Governor Perry, Donna Perry, Sky Perryman.
- [47:39]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Admiral Perry here, Mel Perry, it's a Perry day, but that's been on the books giving free tuition to anyone that graduates from high schools in Texas, regardless of their immigration status. Trump hated it. So he served a lawsuit and an hour later served the consent settlement with the Texas attorney general just days after the legislature, even the Texas legislature, was unwilling to take the law off the books. And so but when I was talking to sky and Democracy Forward, I was gobsmacked by how many lawsuits she is, her organization is involved with. They have 70 lawsuits just themselves right now against the Trump administration. Great interview, everybody. Catch it tomorrow on Legal AF, the YouTube channel. But it could be Democracy Forward, they just filed a new case with the Perry firm in Washington about some other issues. So, you know, we're going to be onboarding just a little bit of a public service announcement.
- [48:39]
Michael Popak
Democracy Forward is going to be on.
- [48:41]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Regularly with Legal AF talking about their cases.
- [48:44]
Michael Popak
And they are in the courtrooms.
- [48:45]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I mean, I talk about it because.
- [48:47]
Michael Popak
I've been in courtrooms, but they're in these courtrooms about these cases.
- [48:51]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And also the ACLU is going to be coming on regularly talking about their cases as well. And so when we come back from our final break today, I want to talk about the Murphy case, Judge Murphy and Donald Trump also running very busy, Department of Justice and Solicitor General's office, running back to the Supreme Court off of what looked like a win for them on Friday. But you know, it's you live by the sword, you die by the sword. You go in on an emergency application with limited briefing and no oral argument, you get a one paragraph decision and then the dissent comments on, well, this.
- [49:29]
Michael Popak
Only applies to the injunction that's before.
- [49:31]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Us, not to other remedial orders that.
- [49:35]
Michael Popak
The judge has entered and it doesn't.
- [49:36]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Divest them of jurisdiction. And lo and behold, Judge Murphy agreed with Justice Sotomayor and made a ruling that the Trump administration is upset about. We'll talk about that and of course we'll end it all on this particular podcast with E. Jean Carroll. But we have our break here to help support the show. People always ask us, what can we do to support the show. Let's be frank. We don't put this behind a paywall. You're not required to pay anything.
- [50:01]
Michael Popak
So what are the ways that keep.
- [50:02]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
The lights on, so to speak. And the home fire is burning here at Legal af, Midas Touch and all of that. It's simple.
- [50:09]
Michael Popak
Subscribe to Midas Touch and help continue.
- [50:11]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
To grow that pro democracy subscriber base. Same thing on Legal AF, the YouTube channel.
- [50:17]
Michael Popak
Go over there.
- [50:17]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
We're going to hit 700,000 in the next day or so. Off to a million before the summer's over. But with your help, you know, we vibrate on a frequency. We're just glad we have everybody here.
- [50:26]
Michael Popak
With us who wants to be educated.
- [50:28]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And updated on law and politics and at that intersection, that's, that's that legal A F sub stack. Everything we're talking about today that resulted.
- [50:36]
Michael Popak
In a written decision or order or.
- [50:38]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Filing or lawsuit up on the Legal AF substack along with some amazing commentary. Come over there. Hit the subscribe button as well. Audio versions of this podcast, the Midas Touch, Legal AF podcast. Come over to the audio version. Hit follow, hit subscribe, Listen.
- [50:56]
Michael Popak
Leave a five star review.
- [50:57]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Come back to the YouTube version of it. We are, we just got the new rankings, Karen, for the top 100 podcasts on YouTube. They just started ranking that about a month ago. And this, this show is in the top. What is it?
- [51:14]
Michael Popak
50?
- [51:15]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I think we're in the top 50. 49. 49 out of like the top 50.
- [51:22]
Michael Popak
Out of every podcast in the world that's on YouTube.
- [51:25]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
We're in the top 49. The brothers. I don't know. I'm get. I'm getting hawked by my producer. Yes, the brothers are number two.
- [51:33]
E. Jean Carroll
Who's number one?
- [51:34]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I don't know.
- [51:35]
Michael Popak
Who cares?
- [51:36]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Number two, Rogan oh, Rogan's bad. Rogan's number one brothers are two. We're in the top 50.
- [51:41]
Michael Popak
I have a show which called the.
- [51:42]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Intersection, which is also in the top hundred. I moved up to 80. I moved up to 86. Yes. All right, so we got three for the Midas Touch Network.
- [51:51]
Michael Popak
Basically.
- [51:52]
E. Jean Carroll
Amazing.
- [51:52]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
We're dominating the top 100 and that's another way to do that. And then of course we've got our pro Democracy sponsors and here's a, here's a word from them.
- [52:02]
Sponsor Voice
Physio, chiropractic and massage therapy are all.
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Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Great resources for when you need them.
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Sponsor Voice
But going to these appointments every few months does not give me the ultimate.
- [52:12]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Results I'm looking for.
- [52:13]
Sponsor Voice
When it comes to my well being.
- [52:15]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
It's taking daily, even hourly opportunities to.
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Karen Freeman Agniphilo
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Karen Freeman Agniphilo
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Karen Freeman Agniphilo
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- [56:30]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Midweek edition of Legal AF and Karen.
- [56:34]
Michael Popak
Freeman Agnifflo and Michael Popak.
- [56:36]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
So let's start with or we're going to wrap it up here in the home stretch.
- [56:40]
Michael Popak
Supreme Court makes a ruling last Friday.
- [56:43]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Ben and I talked about it on.
- [56:44]
Michael Popak
The Saturday, Saturday edition.
- [56:45]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And but when I was putting together the list for today earlier, I was thinking we're just gonna have to talk about, you know, the, that case, the lack of silver lining in which the.
- [56:56]
Michael Popak
Supreme Court in one paragraph effectively turned.
- [56:58]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Due process on its head and is allowing people to be deported and removed to third world countries without notice and really effective due process over an injunction.
- [57:10]
Michael Popak
Of Judge Murphy in Massachusetts.
- [57:12]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
He's the same judge that has already.
- [57:14]
Michael Popak
Found that the Trump administration had violated.
- [57:16]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
His injunction, had continued to send people to South Sudan and to Libya of all places. Now we're now the Trump administration, not now, is offloading to countries that don't share our values. That's, that's the thing that sticks in.
- [57:33]
Michael Popak
My craw the most.
- [57:34]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
You know, he's sending it to, he's not sending it to like European countries, you know, like, well, well, they're sent to Germany today. I'd be like, all right, well, at least they're in Germany. But, but they're sending them to places that don't share our, our values, our constitutional values, our justice values at all. Quite the opposite.
- [57:51]
Michael Popak
These people are in fear of being tortured, killed or worse in these countries.
- [57:56]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And that's why even the immigration laws say you can only deport people to.
- [58:01]
Michael Popak
Where they're from or where they are willing to go.
- [58:06]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And if you're sending them to a.
- [58:07]
Michael Popak
Third country that they don't want to.
- [58:08]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Go to, there has to be a process around that. But the Supreme Court off an emergency application off of Judge Murphy's injunction from April said it's interesting, but we're going to let them continue to do that while we, while we wait around for the full blown merits appeal to come back up to us. Maybe a year from now, we're like, what? And then Sotomayor writes this scathing dissent. And in it there was a curious line. I read it, I kind of read over it. And in it it said, I'm paraphrasing. This order does not, and our jurisdiction does not address the remedial orders of the trial judge of the judge below. I was like, huh, interesting. And I kind of, I kind of blew it off. But you know who didn't blow it off? Judge Murphy. Because when you go back to the docket for his case and he's the guy that found not only a violation by Donald Trump, but he's the one that made the Trump administration hold at an Air Force base in Djibouti, hate Libyans and not deport them until they get due process, keeping them on U.S. soil at an Air Force base. And he's pissed off. And he said, I'm not ready to find contempt yet, and issued a remedial order a month later in May, in.
- [59:26]
Michael Popak
Which he said, you are, as part.
- [59:28]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Of the remediation for violating my prior order, you are to do the following, which is don't deport anybody, keep them on US Soil until I get around to deciding whether you have the grounds to do it and notice has been given properly and due process has been given properly.
- [59:44]
Michael Popak
And he said on Monday after reading.
- [59:46]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
The Supreme Court decision, nothing's changed. It did not enjoin my May 21 remedial order, nor does it divest me of jurisdiction.
- [59:57]
Michael Popak
So nothing's changed.
- [59:58]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
So why don't you take it from there, Karen, what did the Trump administration do about that?
- [60:03]
Sponsor Voice
Well, what do you think?
- [60:04]
E. Jean Carroll
They again ran to mommy and daddy, the Supreme Court of the United States and basically said, you know, basically is trying to get the situation clarified and asking for clarity about whether or not this applies to them. And, you know, look, it's just they're, of course, once again attacking, you know, attacking everybody under the sun. You know, John Sauer, the solicitor general, said this is a lawless act of defiance that once again disrupts the sensitive diplomatic relations and slams the brakes on the executive's lawful efforts to effectuate third country removal. He asked for an immediate stay to make clear beyond any doubt that the government can immediately proceed with these third country removals. You know, the White House is basically attacking Judge Murphy and other judges, as usual. And of course, while all this is happening, by the way, and Stephen Miller is saying, you know, the Stephen Miller who seems to be the architect behind all of this, says, quote, expect fireworks tomorrow when we hold this judge accountable for refusing to obey the Supreme Court. I mean, if that's not a veiled threat. And of course, what does Donald Trump say about all this? I'm not really sure what's going on around here. I know nothing about the situation. Right. And then he says, oh, but it's out of control. The situation's out of control, but I don't really know a lot about it, which is sort of his go to answer with these, these kind of difficult things that he doesn't want to, he doesn't want to really wade into. So that that's what's going to happen. And meanwhile, you've got these eight men sitting on, you know, in, in this, in this country that kind of in purgatory. Right. Waiting to go and, and see, see what happens to them. But, but that's kind of what's happening.
- [61:54]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Yeah. And I think they lose because as I said on a hot take about.
- [61:58]
Michael Popak
This, you live by the sword, you.
- [61:59]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Die by the sword. You go in with a half assed emergency application, limited briefing, limited record, no oral argument to clear up these issues. You get a one paragraph decision that appears on face value to be in your favor. But Sotomayor circulated her dissent and nobody made a nobody from the majority in a statement, which is what they use.
- [62:24]
Michael Popak
Nowadays for these granting the stays.
- [62:27]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Nobody said she was wrong about the.
- [62:29]
Michael Popak
Remedial measures, the jurisdiction of the court.
- [62:32]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Because just like Judge Breyer in San.
- [62:35]
Michael Popak
Francisco about the California National Guard still.
- [62:38]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Has jurisdiction over new temporary restraining orders, new preliminary injunctions on new evidence and the Posse Comitatus Act. He's not divested of jurisdiction just because the appellate court has blocked a temporary restraining order. Same thing here. But they don't like it. So now they want to supplement their briefing and try to get new argument and try to get four votes or five votes from the six that ruled.
- [63:01]
Michael Popak
In their favor to clarify. I'm not sure the Supreme Court clarifies.
- [63:04]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
On this because there's not much to clarify. They saw Sotomayor's dissent, they didn't challenge it. They didn't say, well, she's wrong on that issue. We're blocking the whole case, all of the orders.
- [63:16]
Michael Popak
This is about the powers of a.
- [63:18]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Federal judge wearing a black robe with lifetime appointment to administer justice in their.
- [63:23]
Michael Popak
Courtroom using their inherent authority.
- [63:25]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
This has nothing to do with the United States Supreme Court blocking one of those orders, especially when there's another order that happened after it and a pox on Trump's house because they should have brought a more fulsome appeal about orders that related to the original injunction.
- [63:42]
Michael Popak
But they didn't. And so it wasn't up before the.
- [63:44]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
United States Supreme Court.
- [63:45]
Michael Popak
And if it's not there and it's.
- [63:47]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Not in the record and it's not properly briefed, the Supreme Court doesn't have.
- [63:50]
Michael Popak
The power to rule on it.
- [63:52]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
They should lose on this. There should be crickets, no clarification at all. And then they can try to appeal.
- [64:01]
Michael Popak
The remedial order on another emergency application.
- [64:05]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
But that has to do with the power of a federal judge to enforce his own orders.
- [64:10]
E. Jean Carroll
Exactly. I mean, you're assuming people Here are going to play by the rules. Right? I mean, that's why the story we talked about earlier. Earlier that you were talking about in this confirmation hearing with Emil Bove is so significant, because part of what he's being accused of is basically telling the members of the Department of Justice to basically say f you to the courts and to not abide by the court order. So even if the court says this is what you have to do, that he is accused of saying that, and there's a little colloquy between Adam Schiff and Emil Bove. Schiff said, did you suggest telling the courts fuck you in any manner? Question mark, Bove? I don't recall. Schiff. You just don't remember that. In my experience, the answer to a question like this is either yes or no. And we all know which of those I don't recall is. You know, I mean, that's pretty astounding.
- [65:14]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I don't recall.
- [65:15]
E. Jean Carroll
That's what he said. I don't recall. That's astounding admission that it happened. Of course it is. Of course it is. It was in a room full of people. There's no way you can deny that. And if that's really coming, he's the number three in the Department of Justice. That couldn't come more from the top. If that's really what the Trump administration is telling the rank and file of the Department of Justice is to just ignore court orders. This is work, because everything you just said, Popak, is 100% right and 100% just completely accurate. But that's assuming everybody's willing to play by the rules, and everybody's willing to abide by the rules. I mean, that's why people always say, you know, democracy is so fragile, because democracy depends on all of us agreeing to abide by the rules, even the ones we disagree with. The reason there's no lawlessness in the streets is not because of any law enforcement or laws, et cetera. It's because we all have this social construct, this compact, that we're all going to abide by the rules, whether we agree with them or not. This is the first time in my life that coming from the top, coming from the administration, coming from the federal government, they are basically saying, sorry, it's my way or the highway. I'm not going to abide by the rules that I don't like. That is why our democracy is so fragile and why this authoritarianism government that is coming forward is really so terrifying to all of us. And so that's why Popak when we talk about these things, they're all interrelated because they're all pointing to the same thing. They're all pointing to where we are headed as a country and as a democracy. And that's why I love doing this with you every single Wednesday. And why I think the work that the Midas Touch Network is doing and Legal AF is so important because we have to keep really shining a bright light on what's happening here.
- [67:05]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Yeah, I agree.
- [67:05]
Michael Popak
The social contract is in tatters around.
- [67:07]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
The feet of Donald Trump. And it is, it's a. And that's a scary place to occupy.
- [67:13]
Michael Popak
Because we do, we do keep this together as a.
- [67:16]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
That's what the, that's what a nation.
- [67:19]
Michael Popak
Of laws, not men means. That means that we and laws are.
- [67:23]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
On a book and they have to be abided by because you want your.
- [67:27]
Michael Popak
Neighbor to do it and you.
- [67:29]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And you want to contribute that to the social cause. When I was talking to Sky Perryman today, she, she said she's, she's. Her Democracy Forward is representing the JGG class action in front of Judge Boasberg. And I said, well, you saw the whistleblower letter by Mr. Raveni. What are you gonna do about it? And, you know, I didn't want to put her.
- [67:53]
Michael Popak
I said to her, if you can't.
- [67:54]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Tell me because you're working on it, it's confidential. I totally understand that, but I know you're involved. And she had a good comment. She said it's new information, but not something that the judges like Zinnis and Boasberg didn't already suspect. They just now have the proof that's necessary. I mean, if I'm the judges, I.
- [68:11]
Michael Popak
Make referrals to the bar associations for disbarment.
- [68:14]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I call these people. And Drew Ensign needs to come in.
- [68:17]
Michael Popak
He was a lawyer that's still there.
- [68:19]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
That's running around between Boasberg's courtroom and sinus courtroom and answer for it, because he threw, he threw revenue through Bose, threw Ensign under the bus and said.
- [68:30]
Michael Popak
He'S been lying in court.
- [68:32]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I mean, there's no other way to put this. And we'll see if this scuttles. There's many, many reasons why Amel Bovey should not be a circuit court judge or get anywhere near it. There's right wing conservatives that don't believe that he should be a judge and that he's temperamentally and mentally unsuited to have that role. And they've come out against Bovet and against Donald Trump, including those that would be considered you know, this is one of the things that started the fight with the Federalist Society is that major people in the Federalist Society were coming out against Bovet, and Donald Trump would stand for it or Bovey. But we're going to watch that. We'll do some hot takes on that confirmation hearing. But let's turn to somebody who demonstrates.
- [69:21]
Michael Popak
That it's necessary, even though there's hard.
- [69:23]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Work there, to protect our democracy, it's necessary to hold these people accountable and go through a process, file the lawsuits, have the trials, suffer through the appeals by Donald Trump and come out the side victorious. I know you're a big fan, as I am, of everything E. Jean Carroll has done to try to reclaim her life as a sex abuse victim. Not my words, the words of two different juries who got to see the.
- [69:51]
Michael Popak
Case, got to see the evidence.
- [69:53]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Donald Trump has been trying ever since to rewrite history. While on one hand, he continues to.
- [69:59]
Michael Popak
Defame her, I know they're considering other lawsuits against him.
- [70:02]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
He's also lost two trials. He's got an $83.5 million judgment in one case about him defaming her when he was President of the United States and another one for 5.5 million when he defamed her when he wasn't President of the United States States. The sex abuse happened when he wasn't even a candidate.
- [70:19]
Michael Popak
So it all goes back to the 90s.
- [70:22]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And so Donald Trump has tried every which way at the appeals level to avoid paying her the money. Now, to remind people or to tell them for the first time, there is a bond for each of these judgments so she will be paid eventually, even if Donald Trump refuses to pay her when he has exhausted all of his appeals, he had to post a $5.5 million cash bond. He's got a bonding company for the 83.5 million running with interest, so she'll get paid. He ran to the Second Circuit a number of times. One of them we reported on two years ago where Alina Haba, yes, Alina Haba went to court to argue that the judgment that the case against Donald Trump related to the $83.5 million should never have gotten off the ground because he enjoyed presidential immunity. And the Second Circuit panel two years.
- [71:20]
Michael Popak
Ago looked her in the eye and.
- [71:22]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Said, that's sort of interesting, except you.
- [71:26]
Michael Popak
Haven'T raised that issue in the 18.
- [71:28]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Months of this trial and you have to raise immunity as a defense. And she said, well, no, you don't.
- [71:33]
Michael Popak
Presidential immunity is unique.
- [71:35]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
You don't have to raise it. It's just automatic. And they did not buy that.
- [71:38]
Michael Popak
And they, and they shot her down.
- [71:40]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
They never took an appeal to the Supreme Court. So it's for me, it's a conclusive order law of the case, if you will. Now you fast forward and they decide now that Trump controls the Department of Justice, they'll try a new trick. They'll make. They'll file a motion with the Second Circuit, this is now in the last several weeks to try to have the.
- [72:02]
Michael Popak
United States of America intervene in the.
- [72:04]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Case and take Donald Trump out as a defender. So the case would then be E. Jean Carroll versus the United States of America on the argument that he was acting within the course and scope of his duties as president and has what we call Westfall immunity. And why, why would he do that? Because the next step is the government saying sovereign immunity, you can't collect against us. And the Second Circuit panel and we did the live audio of the oral argument on legal AF said led by Judge Chen, said Chen, sorry. Said no, no, we are not allowing, it's already been up on appeal on this issue. It's not him defaming her as President of the United States is not part of the course and scope of his duties. We don't find Westfall immunity. We're not going to allow you to intervene.
- [72:51]
Michael Popak
That was just the last several days.
- [72:53]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Same panel has to hear a new issue. Donald Trump now argues, wait for it, presidential immunity on the same judgment on the same argument he already raised and lost two years ago. Karen, why don't you take it from there and then I'll give you the wrap on it.
- [73:08]
E. Jean Carroll
Yeah, so look, they're basically saying the case should be thrown out because of presidential immunity because that at the time that the statements were made in question, he was president. He says, not only was I president, that I was. It was in the, we discussed it amongst the White House. And this is in response to a report, Porter, it was an inquiry about a matter of public interest. So this was part of my, of my presidential authority. And you know, the panel who, who heard this was essentially skeptical because what they're citing is Trump versus United States, that that basically gave him criminal immunity, but didn't say anything about civil immunity. And so this skeptic, you know, the panel was skeptical, basically saying he may have waived this by not raising it earlier. Of course, the Trump administration says, well, how could we have raised it earlier? Because at the time that this was, that we made, that we made this appeal, Trump view United States hadn't been ruled on Yet. But look, the issue of immunity and civil immunity was something that has already been settled in and has been kind of well settled law, that they are not immune from civil suits when it for things outside of your presidential duty. That's why Paula Jones was able to sue Bill Clinton while he was president. And of course, it was about something that happened prior to his presidency. But Trump's trying to make this, that this was, I had to, I defamed her as part of my job description, as part of my job duties. So we'll see what they say. We'll see what happens. Ultimately doesn't matter, not really because the audience is the Supreme Court. And so that's where he's going to appeal it to and let's see what they end up saying. But that's, that's where we are here and we'll see what ends up happening. And you said earlier, Popak, that she'll get paid no matter what because he posted a bond.
- [75:03]
Sponsor Voice
Not if the case is reversed.
- [75:05]
E. Jean Carroll
Right. Not if the Supreme Court ultimately says, sorry, we do find you and me wins. Exactly. Exactly. I know. That's why I wanted to clarify that. That's why I just wanted to clarify that this is not this still. This is still the Supreme Court is really unpredictable and very pro Trump, as we know. And so we'll see what they decide here. I mean, no one in the million years thought they would have said he was, he would get immunity, you know, presidential immunity, criminally. So I don't know, all bets are off for civil, for civil immunity.
- [75:39]
Michael Popak
I don't see it on the civil side with the Supreme Court. I'll tell you why. They already raised this issue of presidential immunity.
- [75:44]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And as you rightly pointed out, the civil immunity, the June 2024 immunity decision, which we talk about in shorthand, was about immunity from criminal prosecution for core.
- [75:58]
Michael Popak
Presidential functions, constitutional core presidential functions, or.
- [76:02]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Those within the scope and course of a president's job description, if you will.
- [76:08]
Michael Popak
Stretch to its outer boundaries.
- [76:10]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And then this third bucket, which is private conduct, is always prosecutable.
- [76:15]
Michael Popak
They never really addressed the civil side. Now with their argument here, this guy.
- [76:18]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Justin Smith, who argued for Trump, they said, well, why, you know, why are you here?
- [76:24]
Michael Popak
You raised this issue at the Second.
- [76:26]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Circuit two years ago and you lost on waiver.
- [76:29]
Michael Popak
Why hasn't it been waived?
- [76:30]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Well, we couldn't have waived because as you said, Karen, the new decision came out, but the new decision did not.
- [76:37]
Michael Popak
Did not change the jurisprudence as it.
- [76:39]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Relates to civil liability for non presidential conduct. Oh, but the underpinnings of it. Well, okay, but you've waved it now. They're going to make the argument ultimately on appeal. If they, when they file their writ of certiorari asking for a full blown appeal on this, because they're not going to get an emergency application on this on a civil case not involving the, the, the US Government. This ain't happening. But the, but the court could take it up. He only needs four people to be interested, five to overturn. But I think they're going to find it a little bit unsavory given that the conduct that a jury found that he did happened before he was even thinking about running for president.
- [77:23]
Michael Popak
It's sex abuse and defamation with us.
- [77:26]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
With a dollar amount judgment and it doesn't impinge.
- [77:31]
Michael Popak
And I don't think they're going to.
- [77:33]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Be that enthusiastic about revisiting the wet.
- [77:37]
Michael Popak
Cement of the immunity decision from a year ago.
- [77:40]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
You know, if John Roberts doesn't have.
- [77:43]
Michael Popak
To type out the word immunity for a president ever again, I think it.
- [77:47]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Will, it will be too soon. He just, I just don't see them.
- [77:50]
Michael Popak
Wanting to do that again, although they.
- [77:52]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Want to help Trump, the guy named Trump, as opposed to the presidency as an institution. So they'll try. I think it's been waived. I don't think there's anything about the.
- [78:07]
Michael Popak
Immunity decision that helps revive the claim. And the only remaining argument is the.
- [78:12]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
One that Alina Hoppa made without any case law and that was shot down two years ago, which is you can't waive presidential immunity. I remember the panel at the time was like, sorry, you can't waive it. It's unwaveable.
- [78:22]
Michael Popak
Well, why is it unwaveable?
- [78:23]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
It has to do with the institution of the presidency. But it's a privilege. It's an immunity, right? Yes. So all immunities. And then they say, well, the case law, all immunities can be waived by conduct or action or otherwise. Suppose the president wanted to fight this off because he wanted, or the candidate or whatever wanted to have the American people have the evidence heard in public. He'd been charged in public, he'd been.
- [78:48]
Michael Popak
Accused in public, had a judgment against him in public.
- [78:51]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Maybe he wanted a, his name. Couldn't you envision, I remember them saying to Lena Hava, can't you envision a president who wants to clear his name in a courtroom? And she was like, no, because that's not Donald Trump. It's the opposite of Donald Trump.
- [79:07]
Michael Popak
So I think they lose on waiver.
- [79:08]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
I think this is eight. You can't wait two years into a case to raise the issue and it doesn't get revived because later on a better Supreme Court decision on the issue comes out. Pardon me. So, and if to be, to be rounded out, to be clear. Yeah. Well, my point about the bonds were don't worry that then when he finally loses, I put it in too short of a hand, he won't pay. Don't worry about it. He has 30 days to pay after all appeals are exhausted, including at the U.S. supreme Court. Meaning if they don't take the case and that I think that's 50. 50, they're like, yeah. No, if they don't grant cert and reject it, it's over. If there's nowhere else to go. And if that happens, 30 days later, he either pays her or she runs to the insurity company, the bonding company, and says, okay, you know, the debtor, the judgment debtor didn't pay me pay up. And they have to pay up.
- [80:09]
Michael Popak
And the money, the other money, the.
- [80:11]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
5.5 million, is sitting earning interest at the statutory rate in the court registry. So, you know, she's one step. Every time she wins the Second Circuit, she's one step closer. Now, of course, that one step, you know, talk about crevice risk, is the.
- [80:26]
Michael Popak
United States Supreme Court.
- [80:27]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
But she's got a phenomenal lawyer in Robbie Kaplan, who's when she's not her day job is representing E. Jean Carroll.
- [80:34]
Michael Popak
But she also represents other people.
- [80:36]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
She's involved with a lot of different cases where she successfully has beaten Donald Trump and the Trump administration. And she's one of the good guys. She's one of the courageous people that's out there fighting for justice. So, Kara, we've reached the end of.
- [80:49]
Michael Popak
The midweek edition of Legal af.
- [80:51]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
We started it with welcoming you back, talking about family, talking about Donald Trump's assault on now the judiciary. I'll give you the last word. As always.
- [81:05]
E. Jean Carroll
Family is a blessing. Even if at times they can be inconvenient or some other difficulty, they're such a blessing. And so I'm just so grateful that my family, that I have such a great family, both my actual family and my Midas Touch and Legalea family. That includes you, Popak. And speaking of, I think a family member of yours has a big birthday right around now.
- [81:29]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
My daughter Francesca had her birthday, her first birthday yesterday. And we'll post some pictures up on that.
- [81:37]
E. Jean Carroll
Happy birthday, Francesca. The cutest little thing ever.
- [81:40]
Michael Popak
Big party on Saturday.
- [81:44]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
And we're just so blessed. And we've got my mother in law in from another country joining us here and then we're going to be going abroad to go visit family of my wife said I've never met I've seen him on Facetime and things like that. So yes, family very important in all different versions here on Legal AF and the Midas.
- [82:04]
Michael Popak
And the Midas Mighty.
- [82:05]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
So you know how to support us, you know how to follow us. Saturday I'll be doing the show with Ben Mysalis back here again.
- [82:13]
Michael Popak
Rinse, wash, repeat with Karen Freeman Igniffalo next week.
- [82:16]
Karen Freeman Agniphilo
Until then, Michael Popa Karen Freeman Agniphilo shout out to the Midas Mighty at illegal a efforts.
- [82:31]
Michael Popak
Psst.
- [82:31]
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