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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
Michael Popak
You're on Legal AF the podcast. Sure it's got to be that. Karen Freeman Agniphilo Michael Popach on a Wednesday. What else would it be? We got a lot to talk about. Firstly, we've got a Trump trial. Yes. This is not an old episode. We've got a Trump trial going on in San Francisco in front of a judge named Breyer. Sounds like it's an old episode. This time Charles Breyer presiding over a three day trial about whether Donald Trump and the Trump administration violated the Posse Comitatus Act. God, I never thought I'd have to talk about that. But we do. And that would be violated if a judge finds that the Trump administration has used the US Military, that awesome power of the US Military on domestic soil for civilian domestic law enforcement. And that happened in California. And it's not just California where it matters. It matters in every blue state and every Blue municipality from D.C. to California and all, you know, from, from the, from the Hudson to the Pacific and everything in between. And that's why it's literally the case of Governor Gavin Newsom versus Trump in that case. And we'll talk about it more with Karen Freeman. McNiffalo we just finished day two. Day three is tomorrow and or actually no, they just finished day three today. Sorry. So we'll be able to give you the update related to that then. There's a lot of update and confusion in the Epstein world. Did Ghislaine Maxwell just get work release? Is she going to be working at a Starbucks near you hunting for her next prey, having been convicted of being a child sex offender and child sex trafficker? Well, Alison Gill Mueller, she wrote, just did some reporting and I think there was a non denial denial by Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyer, David Oscar Marcus. The fact that we're even talking about a convicted child sex trafficker who Donald Trump wants to vouch for his character. I Think it says all you need to hear. And the fact that we're even talking about the fact that she might be able to get a work release and the fact that she was sent to a minimum security prison filled with other women and young women, probably not a good thing, not the right thing under the Bureau of Prisons, but we'll talk more about that and then, you know, no rock left unturned by maga. They are going to keep testing whether they've got the numbers at the United States Supreme Court to do really immoral and underhanded things in this case, overturning a long standing precedent that established the right to same sex marriage. And I'm going to have actually tomorrow, I think we'll post it the following day. Robby Kaplan, the lawyer for E. Jean Carroll, who when she was at a big firm doing pro bono work argued a lead case in the Defense of Marriage act that led into the same sex marriage ruling by the United States Supreme Court. And she'll have some great things to talk about. But we'll break down the issue here, Karen and me, and then we do. Speaking of Robbie Kaplan, E. Jean Carroll just got another win at the Second Circuit Court of Appeal about her sexual abuse and defamation and punitive damage case against the, against the, against Donald Trump. And we'll talk about what happens next there. Let's bring on Karen with much. Do we have the balloon drop? It's Karen's birthday tonight.
- [03:53]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Yes, it is.
- [03:54]
Michael Popak
Let's leave it. Let's watch the, all the comments. I don't think I've ever had my birthday fall on a Wednesday. You lucky, lucky person. What are you, what are you, what are you going to do for it?
- [04:05]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
I'm going to go out to dinner with my husband. I'm very excited.
- [04:08]
Michael Popak
Should be.
- [04:09]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Yeah.
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Michael Popak
Are the kids in town?
- [04:11]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
I just got to be with my husband, you know, date night.
- [04:15]
Michael Popak
Date night.
- [04:15]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
That's, that's what I want to do.
- [04:17]
Michael Popak
So there. Thank you, producer.
- [04:19]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Thank you for the balloon.
- [04:20]
Michael Popak
We should end now. This is the highlight of the entire show.
- [04:22]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
So great.
- [04:24]
Michael Popak
This is the end of it. Happy birthday to kfa.
- [04:27]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
The other thing I wanted to do was legal AF with you. You even said, do you want to pass? It's your birthday. I said no way. I want to be with this community, this amazing, these amazing people. That's what I want to do.
- [04:37]
Michael Popak
I'll give you the out you did. I said, you really want to do this tonight with us, so. And that just shows you her commitment to everything that we do here. So let's dive in. There's no segue off of a happy birthday. Congratulations to you. Certainly not the Posse Combatus Act.
- [04:51]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
I will say it's not a big birthday yet. That's all I'll say.
- [04:55]
Michael Popak
Okay. I thought you were going to say something like, well, the Posse Combatantis act is older than me.
- [05:00]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
That's true.
- [05:01]
Michael Popak
That's also true.
- [05:02]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
It's always for the one skin and all their amazing products. I look much better and younger.
- [05:08]
Michael Popak
I wonder if they're a sponsor today. Well, we're going to. They are. Are now. We're gonna, we're gonna tell Jordan it's true. Jordy's gonna go collect. So I've been doing a lot of reporting on it. And so let me just do see if I can do the shorthand and turn it over to you for the color commentary. Judge Breyer, brother of retired Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer, he's senior status himself and he issued a preliminary injunction against Trump administration after the takeover of California and its National Guard by Trump. And he ruled that it was unconstitutional, that it violated the 10th Amendment, which reserves to the states powers that's not given to the federal government, and that his attempt under a unique statute to federalize and commandeer the National Guard of California was an abuse of power. Goes up on it, but he doesn't touch the Posse Comitatus argument, which was another secondary argument or another argument of the state of California. I just had, by the way, Rob Bonta, the attorney general for California, on he's up right now on Legal AF YouTube channel with an amazing interview not to be missed. In fact, it was so amazing I led the video with a, a talking point or a sound bite from General Banta. I think you'll like it a lot about this case. So they bring Posse Combatas arguing that ever since our Reconstruction period, Civil War, post Civil War, in order to get the Confederacy to feel comfortable and to cut a deal about a presidential election. Boy, that sounds familiar. They passed this act which basically assured the south that Union soldiers or the federal troops would not be in their states enforcing local law or domestic. Or domestic or take over domestic disturbances. And that's the law. That's what we've been doing. Now, it does say that a violation of it is a crime, although this is not a criminal case in, in San Francisco and subject to fines. Doesn't really talk about injunctions. We'll touch on that in a minute. Judge doesn't rule on that. That's not what goes to the appellate court because the appellate Court in a three judge panel, one Trumper, one Bush, one Biden rule against the judge on the injunction about the takeover of the National Guard. But they don't address because it wasn't addressed by the trial court below the Posse Combata issue. And way back when we, we, we put a placeholder, we said and the judge is going to hold a trial in August about the Posse Comitatus. And, and we're here Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday he's held a trial. So let me turn it over to you Karen, about what you've picked up and learned about the trial and how do you think this is going to turn out for the Trump side.
- [07:56]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
I don't think the Trump administration is going to be able to show that it was necessary under the Posse Comitatus act to be able to invoke the military and use the military for local domestic law enforcement. You have to show an insurrection. You have to show all sorts of things that absolutely did not exist in California when this was done. It was sort of this manufactured situation that, that Trump said required this. But I don't think he's gonna meet his burden. And I think he's going to lose bigly, as he says in California. That's what I think. And it's just we're talking generally about military being used and National Guard being used in local law enforcement for local law enforcement purposes. And DC is in which we're gonna talk about next, is in a very different position than California. Cause D.C. is not. But I just want to make a general point which is other than the fact that people in the military and people in local law enforcement carry weapons and carry guns, there's almost no similarity between the two jobs to become a local law enforcement officer. The amount of specialized training that goes into it. I have so much respect for both actually for the military and for local law enforcement. I mean, my father was a police officer in Los Angeles and served in the military. And I've always just had the most tremendous respect for people who serve in both. But there's virtually no similarities between the two roles. And the training is so different. And to be a local law enforcement officer and to enforce the local laws, it's so dependent on being a part of the community, knowing the community and being trained to do things like de escalate and local law enforcement. Only a very small percentage of what they do is enforcing laws or making arrests. I should say local law enforcement. They do things like when you call 911 if somebody passed away of natural causes in New York, the police will sit with you until the coroner comes. So you don't have to be alone with the, with the person your loved one who just passed. Or crowd control, if they're, if you're having a parade, they will help control the crowds. Or if there's a swarm of bees that have taken over a hydrant, the local police officers come and there's a beekeeper that works for them and they help move the bees. I mean, these are all examples of. They do help with search and rescue. They help when there's, they help crowd control if there's a fire, they show up when there's an emergency like EMT is called. I mean, there's so many things that they do. And making arrests is maybe 10% of what they do. And so. And the military is a completely other thing. Right. What they're trained to do, it's totally different. Right. They're trained to engage in war. And so just federalizing all these local places, it's such a different thing. And a, I worry a little bit about, I worry a little bit about the military or federal law enforcement. Again, FBI, you're going to bring FBI and they don't patrol. That's not what they do. They do long term investigations that then sometimes end up in arrest, but they don't do that kind of uniform patrol on the street function, which again is just very, very different. So it's a big deal what Trump is trying to do. It reminds me of the Handmaid's Tale where you can't even drive around without these military checkpoints. Everybody in uniform with guns. We're not there yet, but let me tell you, it's a little scary what he's trying to do by bringing these federal forces into local law enforcement. So I think California is right to fight this and I think they're going to win.
- [12:01]
Michael Popak
Yeah. And look what happened with, with Trump. He wants to distract from the fact that there is a trial going on against his administration for violations, the Posse Combatants Act. So that's why that and the fact that he's got a teacher's pet named Big Balls. That's why he tries to take over the D.C. national Guard or D.C. police Department at the exact same time as day one of the trial with a group of people up there. It's just a distractor from Epstein and the Epstein scandal and his role in the COVID up and the crimes related to it and the bad press about Ghislaine Maxwell and J.D. vance's failure to try to tamp down the Epstein story on the weekend on the Sunday morning news shows, making it worse. So he pulls together this phony press conference about strongman Trump. You know, every time I talk about Trump, it's devolved into caveman Me Trump, me have big club. Me, me going to, me going to fix problems in dc, which has worse crime rate than, than Mexico City.
- [13:05]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
I like his Russian. I like your Russian Trump accent.
- [13:08]
Michael Popak
I don't know what it is like caveman Russian. It's wrong. It's not worse. It's 30% down over the year. This is just a facade. Odd, because your, your, your, your pet Big Balls that used to work for Elon Musk is now rummaging around our Social Security records, got jumped by a bunch of 15 year olds. Lord knows what he was doing. Not saying he invited the attack, but I mean, listen, if I'll just leave it at that. So Big Balls gets jumped and now we've got to federalize the DC Police Department. I mean, look, DC's already federal. It's a federal district. Yes, the President has the right to do a lot of things there, but he can't take it on the road and do it in New York. But he does it right at the moment of this trial. In fact, evidence we had. Adam Klassfeld just joined us on Legal AF to be a contributor, and he's in the courtroom watching this trial on Zoom. And he said, it came in the evidence. Like they said, well, you're seeking an injunction. That means California. You need to show that there's a chance that this is going to happen again. And they said, look at dc, there's a press conference going on right now. So that kind of wafted its way right in, in real time, as it often does in Donald Trump cases, to become evidence against him. But that whole, you know, I was reading a New York magazine article today that came in and it reminded me of, you know, it was a whole section about Donald Trump from childhood where he was a bully that used to, you know, pull pigtails and attack little girls. His father had to send him off to military academy, where it got worse. Then he gets under the tutelage of Roy Cohen, Roy Cohn, the lawyer, the pugnacious lawyer. And Roy taught him, you never apologize, you never defend, you only attack. And that's always been Donald Trump. Always attack. And then of course, the interview with the reporter Bob Woodward, in which he said, power. This is Trump to Woodward. Power is. What's the word I'm looking for? It's about fear. It's about creating fear. That's all we're watching with Donald Trump, and we can't allow him to make us fearful. That's why there's over 400 cases that have been filed in federal courts around this country. And by and large, 90% of them have been successful, including injunctions. That's why they matter. And we're also batting about 90% at appellate courts. Sure, there's a stray appellate court here and there that makes a ruling like today, oh, we can do this to the USAID or do that. But by and large, we are winning in the federal courts. At the lower level, there's cases that then drift up to the United states Supreme Court, eight or 10 or 12 of them, and they are important. But main justice in this country gets done at the trial court level and at the first level, appeal court level. And there's plenty of examples of Trump, for instance, chickening out, folding taco moments, walking away from cases, releasing funds. See, they don't get the press that these other ones do. But when you talk to the newsmakers who are in the courtroom, like, like we do on Legal af, you know, Democracy Forward has a playlist on Legal F YouTube channel where Sky Perryman comes on with me once a week and talks about her 80 cases that they are now handling and all the success that they're having. There's, there's even cases where Donald Trump hasn't even bothered appealing. You know, so we were like, we always lose because it goes to the Supreme Court. Not so fast. And that's not what the attorneys general, the 23 Democratic attorneys general will tell you about their success record so far this term. And, and not, and not with the public interest groups like Democracy Forward and the aclu. And I'll just leave it on this, Karen. Rob Bonta, the attorney general for California, by the way, keep an eye on that person. I mean, this is not his last stop as attorney general. I don't know if it's governor of the state of California. I don't if it's running for president one day. Quite an impressive fellow. He was a vice mayor. He was right. He was. He was a representative in California. He worked as a district attorney, then attorney general. I mean, watch this guy's career. Quite fascinating, quite amazing. And he, and why did I bring up Rob Bonta? Oh, we talked about all the cases that they filed because Rob Bonta said we, Trump may have learned in his first term while he had a shadow government waiting to get reelected or elected. He might have learned, but we learned also the lessons the first time around. And we are ready. All gas, no break. And I love hearing that. And I think our audience will take quite a lot of comfort from hearing about the attorneys general, the, you know, the Letitia Jameses and the Rob Bontas of the world and the other 21 of them, along with the Aclus and the Democracy Fords, and what they're doing every day as the firewall between Donald Trump and the American people.
- [18:09]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Yeah, I agree with you. And I also agree with you that the takeover of DC that he's of the DC Police Department, that he's doing is a little smoke and mirrors, because I think he sees the writing on the wall that he's going to lose in California. And D.C. is slightly different. As you said, it's already federal, and there's a state statute that actually allows him to take over and federalize the Metropolitan Police, the, the, the police force in D.C. if there's an emergency. Now, he's manufactured this emergency and, and frankly, I think is way, way overstating and, and lying about what the actual crime numbers are in D.C. and of course, there is some violent crime and there are some problematic areas, but there's no reason to think that local law enforcement there can't handle it on their own. In fact, they've been handling it, and crime has continued to go down, violent crime, year after year, the last two years in particular. And this is from Stat. These are Department of Justice statistics. These aren't. This is, this is Trump administration's own statistics show that crime is down, but he manufactures this emergency, which then triggers the statute that allows him to place the D.C. police Department under his control and deploy the National Guard in the city. So, you know, declaring this emergency in the District of Columbia because, as you said, big balls got jumped. I think it wouldn't pass muster, but I do think it's a loser in court, unlike the California case, because of this DC code. I think it's 1207 40, which basically says emergency control of the police by the president. When special conditions of an emergency nature exists, they can direct the mayor to turn over control for 48 hours and then again for 30 days. After 30 days, they need congressional permission. That's a lower bar, lower standard than the Posse Comitatus act that is required in every other state for this to happen. So I think that's one of the reasons he did it, timing wise, was so that he can get a win or have this happen and not be, you know, because I think he knows he's going to lose in California. So that's what I think.
- [20:22]
Michael Popak
Very, very, very good observation as usual. And we're going to talk about more observations here on Legal af. We're going to talk about the Epstein developments. It's been so many of them since the last time you and I got together. The Defense of Marriage act and same sex marriage now is the next thing on this, on this immoral checklist by maga. But we need, we need, we need to cover it. And then Eugene Carroll had a win and that's a win for justice and for democracy. And I'll have Robby Kaplan is going to be meeting with or interviewing with me tomorrow and we're going to talk about both E. Jean Carroll, her wing as she represents and this, this new attempt to overturn same sex marriage in America. Just such a vindictive group of people that are running our government right now. And we just have to cling together, be joined at the hip and we shall overcome the Trump administration. I mean, that's the best that I can put it. And it starts with telling truth to each other. Mark Marin, the comic social observer, had a good line in his recent special. He said, normally it's speaking truth to power, but for Donald Trump it's speaking power to truth. And that's what we're watching with total revision of American history at the Smithsonian Institute, rewriting the entire impeachment exhibit at the Smithsonian to write out literally Donald Trump, the only two time impeached president ever. I mean, it's just disgusting things that are going on in the, at, in the, in Washington to leave, for Donald Trump to leave his mark. And there's, and I think it just shows you how important it is to support what we do here on the Midas Touch Network and on Legal af, people ask how do you keep the lights on? How do you pay the bills? Because it's not just Karen and me. It's Karen and me and an entire group that works behind the scenes. It's a lean team, but it's an entire group behind the scenes that works on the videos and on the hot takes and on the lives and on the podcasts and there's a lot going on. And then Legal AF YouTube channel, we've got a team there that does the editing and, and the producing and the content making and you know, buys the microphones and things that we need to do the show. And how does that get done? It's very, very easy. We don't have a paywall. You know, if you want to make contributions, you make contributions, but there's no Paywall for our content either here on the Midas Touch Network. Hit the subscribe button. Come over to Legal AF, the YouTube channel. Do the exact same thing, just that's the receipt. We need to show us that you like the content that we're curating on the legal AI YouTube channel. I got a dozen contributors that do work over there with me. Adam Klassfeld just joined from All Rise News. We got our resident historians, Sidney Blumenthal and Sean Wallent's amazing interviews that they bring on as, as a group and others, which I don't want to bore everybody with the details. Come over to legal after YouTube channel. You'll see the playlists and all the podcasts that are there. And all we ask for is a. Is you take a finger and hit the subscribe button. That's really it. Legal. I have a substack and the way to support that. Sure, paid subscription is great. It does help pay the bills for people that are involved in this. But if you just want to start it off with a free subscription, you'll get a lot of the content that's very, very interesting, including the filings and the orders and things in that coming right out of the courtrooms. You have to rely on Karen and me or Ben telling you about what the 38 page order says. You can read it for yourself as well. And so that's on Legal AF substack. And then we've got our. We've got sponsors. That's another part of the ecosystem that keeps the lights on, keeps the, the printing press running. And we've got some amazing sponsors. Some of them have been with us for five years. Some of them are brand new, but all have been vetted and curated by Jordy Mysalis and the brothers. And then we look at them and we try them out. We go, we like these and we pass on some that we don't like. And these are the ones that are very supportive of what we do. And just to make a point, because sometimes it comes up in the chat. Google Ads, ads by YouTube we have no control over. So if they're placed there, someone's like, pop the meme coin for Trump and his gold watch is being sold on one of your videos. I have no control over this at all. However, the ads that we actually run during or do during a show that we have complete control over and they, they don't have any control over our content at all. They don't know what we're going to say. Karen doesn't. We don't know what we're going to say to each other, all right, I just have a list like that. Here we go. And that's it. And if they don't like it, they don't have to sponsor us. And the first day that a sponsor tells Karen or me or Ben what to say or what not to say is the last day we're going to have that sponsor and or I'm going to be on the network. So don't worry about any of that. But if you got disposable income and that's shrinking, I get it in this economy. But these are some great products and some great sponsors. And now a word from them. Guys know I love my late night.
- [25:15]
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- [25:21]
Michael Popak
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- [25:24]
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- [26:08]
Michael Popak
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- [29:21]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Sure. So Ghislaine Maxwell is, as you know, she went to trial in her case after Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide a month after he was arrested. And she went to trial, she was convicted of most of the charges of both facilitating sexual activity with minors as well as participating in them herself. So she was resoundingly convicted and sentenced to 20 years. And there are different places she could serve that time. And she was in a higher level security facility. And as a result of talking to the Trump administration, she suddenly is now transferred to a minimum security camp. And, and when you get to go to a place like that, there's a lot you get to do there. First of all, they call it a camp for a reason. It's minimum security. A lot of freedom, a lot you can do. And one of the things that you get to be. It's kind of ironic that Jared Kushner in Trump 1 was instrumental in a lot of these prison reforms and sentencing reforms, things like the First Step act, et cetera, that allows people who have served a certain amount of time to have time reduced off their sentence or to get to do things like work release. And that seems to be where she's headed. And it's one of the reasons, I'm sure, why she was given this cushy role to go to minimum security now so that she can avail herself of all of these things and start the process of getting out, frankly. So I think that's where she is. And what's happening, I don't know, maybe the Trump administration decided that a full pardon is a little too distasteful. And it's just interesting because through all of this, although I followed Epstein and Maxwell at the time when this was all going on, now that this is all happening, I'm sort of refreshing my memory on all of what happened and came out in her trial. And thankfully Judge Engelmeier, who's the judge in the Southern District, who denied this request from the Trump administration to release the grand jury minutes. He denied it in a 30 plus page decision. This, this could have just been a one page decision or a two page decision, you know, or just denied, I mean, because it doesn't meet the legal standard even close. But he took the time to really remind everybody of the treasure trove of information, the amount of stuff that, that the Trump administration possesses and doesn't need the permission of the judge to release. What he basically said in this decision was, look, there was a trial, Ghislaine Maxwell had a trial and lots of evidence came out in that trial. And nothing in this grand jury testimony amplifies upon that grand jury. The grand jury is a bare bones probable cause standard, just enough to charge someone with a crime. And then you have a trial where you have full evidence and cross examination, etc. This grand jury presentation was two different witnesses who testified and neither of them, they were summary witnesses. So they just summarized the evidence. Neither of them testified at the trial. And there was nothing in there that illuminated anything. There was nothing new or anything in there special that didn't come out at the trial. So he basically said, look, I'm denying it because you didn't meet the standard, but I'm. But I'm not. There's nothing in there. And he previewed that for everybody. There's literally nothing in there. But there is a lot of stuff that came out at the trial and is part of the investigation that the FBI and the Department of Justice has when they investigated and prosecuted these cases. Right. They executed search warrants, they recovered a notebook, flight logs, all that kind of stuff. I was reading a CNN article that talks about just the connection and how close, I don't know that people realize how close Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump were. They called themselves best friends. They were the best of friends, the closest friends. He'd been on the plane. His children when they were little and their nannies went on his plane. It's all in the flight logs. And they put it in chronological order, and it's worth looking at because it's just shockingly, they were shockingly close. They weren't just acquaintances who knew each other at parties. These were people who spent a lot of time together, flew on each other's airplanes a lot together, and literally called each other best friends. And there was a. At one point, Trump admitted that he knew that Jeffrey Epstein likes him young. I mean, you know, it's not a far stretch, given the amount of women who have come forward and accused Donald Trump of forcibly, whether it's raping them or kissing them or touching them, there are so many women who have come forward to say that that's what happened and that's what his friend Jeffrey Epstein did as well. And so it's not a huge stretch. And when you think about it and you see how close they were, and I think it's time for the Justice Department and the FBI to turn over the records that they have in their possession that does not require the court or anybody else to release. The way these grand jury minutes that show nothing, this is just, they just want to be able to say, oh, we were going to turn them over, but the judge said, no. The judge said, no, there's nothing there. It's. It's literally giving ice in winter. There's nothing in those minutes, and there never was going to be anything in those minutes. I've never seen grand jury minutes that that are, are substantive Federal grand jury minutes that are substantive. That's not how they do it. They do it exactly this way for a reason. So that, that's where we are. And you know, with all of this. Sorry, I know I kind of went off on a, on a tangent there, but I get so upset when I get. So this, this topic really bothers me.
- [35:35]
Michael Popak
The podcast is a tangent. I know, but Ben, Ben, when he and I talk about, when we do Saturday, Sunday, he's like, we talking about, all right, I'll, I'll do this part. And then you do a popoc rant or Ben ran. I'm like, the rant. That's the, that's the juice. That's the podcast, the rant part. So, yeah, Engelmeier, I'll just touch on that part. Judge Engelmeier issued a 35 page plus decision. What I liked about it, in a way that Judge Rothenberg, sorry, Rosenberg, in my, in West Palm beach, when she was dealing with her grand jury transcript. No, I'm not going to release the transcript issue. She just did like a five pager. Like, well, Rule 6E of the Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure, rule of secrecy. You haven't given me proper ground. So no, that's not what Engelmeier did. What Engelmeier had said is I'm going to set the record straight. First part of my order is going to be reminding people of the crimes that Ghislaine Maxwell committed. The, the six that, the six or seven that she was indicted for, the five that she was convicted of, her, her participation in sexual abuse of girls and women, the victims that testified, because he's, seeing as we all are, an attempt to rehabilitate Ghislaine Maxwell by her lawyer, by Donald Trump, by the right wing maga, by the, by MAGA media and the rest. Because they have to do that because Donald Trump wants to exonerate her. And so they have to have it be muddied in the people's mind that maybe she's the victim too. And the judge says, all right, this is my paraphrase. Let's set the record straight. She's not a saint. She's a convicted sinner, and these are her sins. He didn't have to do that, but he did that, I think in honor of the thousand or more victims of hers, including those that had the courage to testify against her. And there were about six of them. That was the first section. Second section was what I referred to as release the damn files. The judge saying, okay, I know you've, you've tried to, to divert attention and sent it over to federal judges because you're trying to redefine what the Epstein files are. But we don't have the Epstein files. What we have, and we're not sitting on them are a very scant one day transcript, nothing of which. And he said, I looked at it, I'm not going to tell you what's in it, but I will tell you in general, all of it has been reported, none of it is new. And then he went off to say the mine load, what I call the mother load of documents that comprise the Epstein files or are sitting with the Trump administration. And he says point blank by quoting Pam Bondi's February memo, Pam Bondi's February announcement, the press conference, the letter to the Department of Justice, to the FBI, have all the files on my desk. The revelation by the Department of Justice that there were 300 gigabytes of information which comprise the Epstein files. And he laid that all out to say to the public and to the Trump administration, administration, your attempt to blame federal judges for not releasing the Epstein files is a charade. You're sitting on the Epstein files. We aren't. He says, I looked in the files and anybody, if I could allow you to look at them and I can't because of the rule of secrecy around grand jury materials, you and all the people that you say justify releasing the files, the pundits, the press, the media, the public would all be bitterly disappointed because there's no there there. His words. And he called out the Trump administration and reset, I think, reset the battlefield to remind everybody Ghislaine Maxwell is a convicted sex predator. One, two, I don't have the docs and none of the federal judges do. The Trump administration does. So go to them and if solve your own problem Trump administration, and don't try to use the federal courts to do it. And three, he then had a short section, much like Judge Rosenberg In Florida, about, yeah 6E none of these things that you're telling us are the justifications work. And also found it interesting, Karen, that this is where we always have the disconnect on purpose between what Trump says for political fodder on the campaign trail or on the presidential trail about what his arguments are and what they can actually argue in a court of law. How many times have we heard over the last six weeks or more, why are we still talking about the Epstein files? It's boring. There's nothing there there. It's not very interesting. Why don't you ask me questions, dumb reporter, about the tariffs or about my peace deals that I'm doing or about something else I want you to focus on. Why do you keep focusing on the Epstein files? That's. That's what he says publicly. Of course. We know it's rocked the administration because they're holding non secret secret meetings on. In the middle of the night in the White House to try to figure out. I love this one. It's a communications. They're having a communications problem. It's like the old Cool Hand, Cool Hand Luke movie. We're having a failure to communicate about Epstein. No, you're not. You're not releasing the files. And everybody sees that as a cover up of epic proportion of. Of depraved sexual criminal conduct. And we want to know if you're involved. You may say to us, there's other people involved, but why is your name all over the Epstein files? And that's the problem he's having right now and convincing even his MAGA base about it. So while you got all that going on and all the distractions going on in the filings, Pam, Bonnie, the Department of justice tells Judge Engelmeier and others, this is a case of great public importance. Everybody, history needs to know how the FBI and all. And I'm like, which is it? Is it. It's boring, nothing to see here? Or this is a case of great public importance. That's the only time I ever agree with Pam Bondi. It is a case of great public importance. And what it says about this administration, I'll leave it on this, Karen. The fact that Donald Trump is so low has sunk so low that he needs a convicted child sex offender to vouch for his character says everything you need to know about this administration and how morally hollow it is.
- [41:42]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Yeah, I agree. But I also agree with you that this is really a. You know, if. If he. If there's nothing in there that, that Donald Trump did and there's really nobody else, then release them. You know that. That's what I don't understand. Like, it makes it almost worse than it actually is. And that's why I think he's having such a problem.
- [42:01]
Michael Popak
Because there's stuff in there. Yeah, because there's stuff in there that you and I.
- [42:04]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
There must be. Yeah, yeah.
- [42:06]
Michael Popak
It may be. It may be. He may be blowing up in his mind. I mean, is there evidence that he was on the island and raped girls? I mean, at this point, who knows? It's hard to tell. But whatever's in there needs to come out because the public is demanding it. And the more they hide it, the more we want to see it, the more they try to blame the Biden administration, the more everyone's like, just release the damn files. So will continue to follow this case for all.
- [42:34]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
More survivors are coming forward, too. There are some survivors that have never spoken publicly before that are, that are going to speak on September 3rd in Congress. And I think more people are coming forward and so maybe the evidence will get out one way or another.
- [42:49]
Michael Popak
Yeah. And that's what I think. I think that's what the judge hoped for, too. Why don't we, why don't we touch when we come back from our last ad break, we'll touch on, we'll talk about this attack on same sex marriage and then a win for justice. And E. Jean Carroll on Legal AF, as I said, many ways to support us. Legal AF, the YouTube channel, come over there, hit that subscribe button. We're going to hit 800,000 well before the summer is over at the rate we're going. We just passed 230 million views of our content over there. And I'm adding contributors about once a month. But really high end crown jewel type contributors. I think you're really, you'll really enjoy Legal AF sub stack. We're continuing to build that and we're doing more lives on Legal AF sub stack. I did two today, one with Katie Fang, one with Adam Classfeld and we're going to be adding, I think Adam Parkman, though, is going to be coming over with me. We're going to try to do, I don't know about one a day, but we're going to do a lot of lives on Legal AF sub stack. If you want to, if you want to join and pay, we appreciate it. If you can't or you don't want to start out as a free member, Both places Legal AF and the YouTube channel as well. And then of course, we've got our Patreon and we still do a lot of original content on Patreon. Another way to support us and keep the lights on. And then we've got our sponsors and here's our our next break for our sponsors.
- [44:11]
Sponsor Voice
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- [47:15]
Michael Popak
And State and their growing movement.
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Sponsor Voice
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- [47:33]
Michael Popak
Karen Freeman agniflo Michael popak sitting at the intersection for breaking legal news about Trump presidency and so much more. And now we've got a MAGA attack on same sex marriage. What is it about MAGA and people that lead alternate lifestyles? Why does it bother them so much? Why does it matter? Republicans used to be not in my bedroom and now it's like all up in my bedroom and all up in my, in my, you know, if, if you're, if you want to be nothing from a gender perspective, if you want to be transgender, if you want to be whatever, whatever makes you comfortable as a human being and you want to marry somebody that you love and they happen to be of the same sex, why does it matter so much to maga? Why, why do they have to tear down and make people uncomfortable and force everybody in the back alleys and consider suicide? Because they can't live the life that they were meant to lead. What? Let's start with that. Why do you think that this, you know, we're not in the 50s anymore, the 30s. This is 2025. Why does this bother them so much?
- [48:49]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
I, honestly, this one is a head scratcher for me. I have no idea why anyone could be anti gay or anti same sex marriage. I mean, as you said, just love who you want to love, be with who you want to be with. I mean, finding true love in this world is not, not everyone finds it. Right. And if you find it and you have it, it shouldn't matter whether you're same sex or not. And this attack on same sex marriage is really, really upsetting and really concerning because just to remind everyone where, where we are in 10 years ago now, it's been legal in, in the United States, Oberfeld versus Hodges. And I love that you're having Robbie Kaplan on who is responsible in some ways. Right. She's the one who took this case all the way to the Supreme Court and won. And right after that, right after the Supreme Court declared that that same sex marriage is needs to be nationwide. In Kentucky, there was a clerk who refused to issue a marriage license to a gay couple, citing her, it was against her religion. So I guess to answer your question, why is that? I guess that's why. Right. I think it's a religious belief. And she has now asked the Supreme Court, she's been, she's back the same clerk she is Back and asking the Supreme Court to overturn the Oberfell is really where, where we are. And normally you would think, well that's not going to happen and why would it happen? And you know, will they take the case? And you know, they, they, she, she filed a writ and the two individuals who she denied the license for did not file a response. Just kind of left it hoping that the Supreme Court would just deny certiorari. And you can just, one justice can call for a response from the other party. So it's briefed prior to them knowing whether they want to grant cert or not. And of course somebody, one justice asked for a response because they don't typically grant reviews without hearing from both sides. And again, any justice can. And so they asked for it and we'll see, you know, we'll see if they do. You need 4, 4 votes as you know, POPOC to grant cert or to hear a case officially and you need five to overturn a case. And so I don' know that they would grant cert if they didn't feel confident that they had the, the five to overturn it. There were dissenters in Oberfell and so, you know, it was Roberts and Thomas and Alito dissented. So do they have a fourth and then a fifth? Let's see, let's see what they have. But this one scares me a little bit.
- [52:14]
Michael Popak
It's gonna be awkward. Gorsuch presided over a gay marriage at some point in his career, that seems to be the one area that he is more progressive is in the gay marriage world. I mean, I mean I, I, you know, do they have the numbers to do it in the maga Right. Of the Supreme Court? Sure. Have they been working overtime to rip a super precedent off the, off the shelves, you know, as part of their MAGA checklist like Roe vs Wade and cases related to Administrative Procedures act and the Chevron decision and all. And I could name about a dozen different doctrines that have fallen by the wayside under the Roberts court. Yes. Are they, do they have the balls to go after same sex marriage? That's probably terrible phrase to go after same sex, same sex marriage and have that be on their obituaries. I'm not sure about that, but we will know soon enough. I could definitely make an argument where they would never take that case and I could certainly make an argument where they'll definitely take that case. And that's the problem with the U.S. supreme Court when it comes to things about religion or sexual autonomy or your ability to control things. About your body or reproductive rights. They're just. They're not consistent on everything. And we're gonna have to see. It's gonna come down to Amy Coney Barrett and maybe Gorsuch on this issue or maybe Roberts. I want to hear from Robbie Kaplan tomorrow about what she thinks she had a case that led into Ober Cafell on a related matter, sort of set the framework for same sex marriage. And I want to hear from her as well. So it's just something we wanted to put on everybody's radar. It's not an emergency appeal. That's going to happen in August, September. This is going to be a first new term in. In of the United States Supreme Court in October. But we will follow it closely. But again, that's why I started with why. Why must they deny people the right to feel comfortable in their bodies with whom they love? I just don't understand it. It doesn't bother me one bit what goes. As long as it's not illegal. What goes on in my next door neighbor's house or how their children are being raised or who they love. I mean, listen, I have. You have children. I have a daughter. Everybody knows I adore Francesca. I couldn't love any person other than my wife more than my daughter. But if my daughter came home one day and was adult and told me that she loved somebody of the same sex, I would focus on the love part part and not on the same sex part in accepting her. But that's me and our audience, I think, by and large. But that's not the adversary. So remember that at the time of the voting, because, you know, you're in for a penny, you're in for a. Somebody once said, you're in for a Deutschmark. I mean, you're in. You know, this party is so depraved that people say, I'm a. I'm a single issue Republican. You can't be. That's a cop out, and that's a lie. Like, what was your single issue? Transgender sports or a single issue? Is this. That the other thing? You're. That's your party, okay? If you're an independent, you voted for the party, that's your party. And if you don't like what's going on, then that shouldn't be your party and you should be voting for the Democrats. Now, I know the Democrats are getting, you know, low polling numbers, but frankly, their party out of power. You know, we can do letters, we can do shadow hearings, we can drive people crazy during confirmation hearings. We can do filibusters now and again, but there's a limit to what a party out of power can do. If you want to see real change, if you want to see checks and balance, if you want to see abuse of power being limited and impeachment hearings being opened up and things being done that help the American people, then vote for the Democrats and get them back into power and have them run the House and the Senate. It's really that simple. There's a lot of hand wringing we can do, and Lord knows Democrats are known for hand wringing. But at the end of the day, you have to, there's, there's, there's this call to action that you can do. Carol, you want to talk about E. Jean Carroll?
- [56:31]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Yeah. Yeah. Just before we leave. Same sex marriage. I just, this is just an issue that I, I really haunts me that this is, that this could happen. You know, I really, I want to live in a world where people don't have to come out as gay. They don't have to say, I'm gay. Like you don't, you don't go to your parents and say, you know what, I have something I need to tell you. I'm straight. You know what I mean? I want this, like, we need to move so far in the other direction that this isn't even a question that you just love who you love, right? Your lifestyle is your lifestyle and you are who you are and who you're meant to be and you're with who you're meant to be with. And this is just an issue that we all have to make sure we've finally, I mean, I can't believe it took until 2015 for same sex marriage to be legal, but we've already lost abortion. We cannot lose this. And this is something just, just what you were saying, Popak, about what we have to do and what is at stake and what is important. This is, this is just next level and we have to, we have to get it back because this is just outrageous.
- [57:49]
Michael Popak
You and I all have friends. 1 degree separation of people who are same sex. Same sex marriages successful, some not successful. I think their divorce rate is actually a little bit lower than heterosexual. But, but they have the right to be in that marriage. And I know plenty of couples, same sex couples that have adopted children or have had children and also loving. Look, there's, there's a, there's a love and abuse in, in the full spectrum. So it's not like, you know, oh, well, let them do it because they do it. Better. No, I mean, everybody, everybody should have their shot at whatever love in life that they want to have. And, and that's the choice. Like, that's why it just infuriates me too, about same sex or single. Single issue Republicans or single issue Independents. How can you possibly do that? What a cop out. What a, what a cheat. You know, well, somebody that's not a cheater, not a cop out, has gotten justice for herself. Is E. Jean Carroll. And we've got some people might be thinking, do we already do this? Yeah. Because there were two judgments, one for the. A nine person jury, civil jury, that found that she was sexually abused by Donald Trump. That's why we get to call him a sexual abuser. There's 9.
- [59:07]
Sponsor Voice
0.
- [59:08]
Michael Popak
A jury found on a preponderance of evidence that he sexually abused, or as the judge called it, technically raped Eugene Carroll in a dressing room at the Bergdorf Goodman department store, diagonal from and across the street from Trump Tower back in the 90s. And she. And that jury awarded her 5.5 million in total. He then defamed. Then there was a second trial when he defamed her again. And that trial went second. And that trial had to do when he was president and he testified and the jury hated him. Second jury, and they awarded her 83 and a half million dollars. Good job. Alina Haba and the rest. And he. It's been up on appeal ever since. It's been kicking around with different appeals. Donald Trump's tried to. Argued that he's entitled to what's called Westfall immunity because he was a, he was a, an employee of the federal government when he made the statements that defamed her. She's ugly. I would never sleep with her. Look at her. She's not my type. She's trying to shake me down. She's a liar, all that stuff.
- [60:14]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Jury hated him and mistook her for Marla Maples. Right. During a deposition. Yeah, that's why he's not my type. But that's, but he thought she was Marla Maples.
- [60:24]
Michael Popak
I asked Eugene Carroll about, I interviewed Eugene Carroll about three weeks ago. And I asked her, I said, said, I said, gene, Eugene. Is that what was that moment like when Robbie Kaplan, your lawyer, ran the video of the deposition in which with Alina Habas, his, like his nurse sitting next to him, she handed him, your lawyer handed him the photo when he denied having ever met you and it was you, John Johnson, who was a ABC News reporter, who was her, her husband at the time, and Ivana and Donald Trump all like laughing in a photo with fur coats, you know, very, very 1980s New York. And they handed it, you know, and the whole point of that cross was to disprove that Donald Trump had never met her. Robby didn't know what was going to happen next. Neither did the jury, which was. Let me see that photo. Well, okay, so that's a photo of me and Marla Maples. And so Donald Trump's so demented that he thought his, his, his two wives were in the photo at different times because Ivana was in the photo, me and Marla Maples. And Robbie says, stop, I'm sorry, are you, you're pointing to this person here as being Marla Maples, the person you married. Yes, that's me and Marla. And then you hear Haba in the video recording say, that's Carol, that's E. Jean Carroll. And he looks at it. Oh, it's a fuzzy picture. We've all seen the photo. It's clear. It's a very clear photo. Point being, he had just said, not my type. And yet he confused her for the woman he married. I asked Eugene, how'd that go over in the trial? He says that there were two moments that won the trial for me, that, and when Donald Trump walked out during Robbie Kaplan's closing remarks, closing argument, literally got up in front of the jury, turned and walked out the door. She said, that's when we knew that we had got that the jury was with us. When he, when he was both misogynist and insulting about Robby and dismissive of EG Carroll, it only reinforced the narrative they had been making in the courtroom the whole time. So first 5.5 and then an 83 and a half, both go up on appeal. They end up at the same panel about immunity, about whether he had immunity. And they were all like, you waived it. If you had it, you waived it, you never raised it. Which is Alina Haba problem, by the way. That's malpractice for having not raised it. And so now the same panel affirmed both. Now her judgments. Last stop is the Supreme Court. So let me ask you, do you think the Supreme Court gets involved with these civil cases about rape or sexual abuse, technical rape in New York, and about punitive damages, or do they. Nah, we're not touching that one. What do you think happens if it was.
- [63:17]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
If the parties were anyone else other than Donald Trump on one side of the V and E. Jean Carroll, they wouldn't touch this with a 20 foot pole. But your guess is as good as mine. When it comes to them with, with Donald Trump, I mean, they, they're like his personal, his per, his personal, his own small claim score or whatever you want to call it. Like, they just, every case he has, he goes to them. It doesn't matter what it is. And they seem to, they're like, you know, it just, they're his advisors.
- [63:47]
Michael Popak
They shouldn't take it. They shouldn't take it.
- [63:48]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
They shouldn't take it.
- [63:49]
Michael Popak
Yeah, it's beneath them to take the case. My God.
- [63:53]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
When will she get the money though? When will she physically get paid?
- [63:56]
Michael Popak
When. When all appeals are exhausted, which would be. He tries an appeal at the United States Supreme Court and it either happens or it doesn't.
- [64:04]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Do you have to post a bond though, with the money?
- [64:06]
Michael Popak
He's got two bonds, he's got a cash bond for five and a half that's been sitting running with interest. It's now over $100 million. It's over $100 million. E. Carroll told us during the interview she is donating almost all of it out. I'm like, don't do that. Enjoy some of it. But she wants to set up foundations. The ones she said, the ones that'll drive Donald Trump crazy are the foundations that she's going to set up with his cash, which we loved. You know, so many things I love about her. But the five and a half is cash bond, the 83 and a half. Remember, he had problem getting a surety company to post the bond. He finally found a surety company. There's a combination of sureties that are involved to post it and it once. If she, if he tries the appeal and they reject it within 30 days, he has to pay it or she goes to the bonding company or the, the court clerk and gets paid. If they accept the appeal, she's got to wait and she's then got to win. So we'll keep a close eye on it. But if they don't bother taking it, like with a one line order, you know, which you could see here, then 30 days after that one line order, but we gotta get the appeal first. So he's got 30 days from now, so it'll be a September event when he files the appeal, sometime two or three or four or six months later, we'll know what they do. In the meantime. It runs with interest. And if he fails at the Supreme Court one way or the other, then she will get her money sometime in 2026.
- [65:30]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Speaking of bonds and money owed, what's going on with the new York State civil fraud case and that bond that he had to put up.
- [65:39]
Michael Popak
And only bad things. I mean, Donald Trump, I won't say he's done anything to slow it down. The First Department Appellate Division has been sitting on a $450 million civil fraud judgment against Donald Trump for going on 10 months now. I do practice in the First Department. That's an incredibly, exceedingly long time. I don't know if they're scared, if they're worried what their timing issue is. This is not a big deal. But what that has allowed is mischief. Because of the huge gap, Donald Trump has been able now to open up criminal investigations against Letitia James, the New York Attorney General, for having gone after him in the civil fraud case, which is ridiculous. And of course, they put a, a sock Puppet, Crash Dummy, MAGA, Northern District of New York Fake U.S. attorney to go after her along with Ed Martin in a mortgage fraud, no less. So just this time gap has allowed Donald Trump to change the narrative and try to go after people like Letitia James. And I blame the First Department. You know, they're gonna cut, let me. As you and I talked about it, they're going to cut that judgment probably in half because the First Department cuts every judgment in half. It's. You just have to get through the, the meat grinder of the First Department. When you get a judgment in New York, in Manhattan, you don't celebrate that amount of money. Trust me, if you're a plaintiff's lawyer, because you got to go through an appeal and they're going to whack you. So it's going to come down. Is it going to come down to zero? I doubt it. Is it going to come down a couple hundred million? It may. And that money goes to New York State. But look at this time gap that's allowed Donald Trump not only to get elected, but also to sic the Department of Justice on his political enemy who prosecute, successfully brought that case in. Letitia James of the New York Attorney General's office.
- [67:30]
Karen Freeman Agnifilo
Yeah, Interesting, right?
- [67:32]
Michael Popak
So we will continue to talk about those things, but we got a happy birthday celebration for kfa. She's meeting her husband for some dinner at an undisclosed location right after the show. We're going to end it right now. I really appreciate her being here and stretching it out for this amount of time. You know how to support us all. Hit the subscribe buttons, Midas, Touch, Legal, AF and all of that. Come right back here Saturday for our show with with Ben Mysellis. And I got some great interviews about newsmakers including Robbie Kaplan, E. Jean Carroll's lawyer, and others on the Legal AF YouTube channel. So until our next our next podcast, come over and listen to us on audio. We need some audio. Love this is Legal AF and the Shout out to the Midas Mighty and the Legal A efforts. You say you'll never join the Navy, that you never track storms brewing in the Atlantic and skydiving could never be part of your commute. You'd never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit or fly so fast you break the sound barrier. Joining Joining the Navy sounds crazy. Saying never actually is. Start your journey@navy.com, america's Navy forged by the sea.
- [68:54]
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