Legal AF by MeidasTouch: "Trump Blindsided as Criminal J6 Case Returns"
Date: November 22, 2025
Hosts: Michael Popok (MeidasTouch), Chris Mays (Arizona Attorney General, guest interview)
Topic: The revival and legal nuances of the Arizona fake elector prosecution, the impact of Trump's recent pardons, and the broader fight to safeguard democracy after the 2020 election.
Episode Overview
This episode centers on explosive new developments in Arizona’s fake elector criminal case as the state's Attorney General, Chris Mays, takes her legal fight to the Arizona Supreme Court. The hosts dissect why federal pardons granted by Donald Trump are performative and legally irrelevant to state prosecutions, delve into the legal tactics underpinning the fake elector case, and feature a direct interview with AG Chris Mays about her mission to defend democracy and deter future anti-democratic conspiracies.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Background on Arizona’s Fake Elector Case
- Context: Arizona’s AG Chris Mays indicted 18 individuals (11 Republican “fake electors” and seven Trump insiders, including lawyers and a chief of staff) for conspiring to overturn the 2020 election.
- Complication: An appellate court recently dismissed the indictment, citing a technicality—that the prosecution did not present the text of the Electoral Count Act of 1887 to the grand jury.
- Current Status: Mays has appealed this ruling to the Arizona Supreme Court, arguing the law’s non-criminal, federal character means its text was not required for a state grand jury.
- Insight: The episode highlights how determined Democratic AGs are working together nationwide to uphold accountability when federal resources or willpower are lacking.
2. Limits of Federal Pardons
- Popok’s Explanation [06:12]: Trump pardoned 18 people—including Christina Bobb (now with the Dept. of Homeland Security)—but federal pardons only cover federal crimes, not state prosecutions.
“Donald Trump or any president has as much pardon power when it comes to state cases … as you and I have—meaning, none.” – Michael Popok [06:29]
- Takeaway: These pardons are “performative”, offering no protection in Arizona’s state-level legal system.
3. Grand Jury Procedures and the Indictment Ruling
- Popok explains the difference between presenting applicable “criminal statutes” versus non-criminal, federal laws like the Electoral Count Act to grand juries.
- Key point: The defense’s “alternate electors” argument (they were only “standbys” if a court reversed the election) couldn’t excuse their conduct because no court backed their claim and their scheme evolved into outright fraud.
“In 80 lawsuits, no court called into question the election, including the United States Supreme Court. But that plan morphed into something else.” – Michael Popok [08:13]
4. Chris Mays Interview: Commitment to Election Integrity
[13:34 – 17:53]
Popok interviews AG Chris Mays, focusing on continual threats to democracy and her philosophy as Arizona’s chief law enforcement officer.
- Mays on Deterrence:
“Criminal law … is not just punitive, but it also is designed to be a deterrent against future crime. … Do I want to send a message to future bad actors who might try to undermine American democracy? You bet I do.” – AG Chris Mays [16:25]
- On Trump’s actions:
“This is a president who is trying to overthrow American democracy and who on a daily and weekly basis, Michael, is violating our Constitution.” – AG Chris Mays [17:26]
- On AG’s responsibility:
“When any president … violates our Constitution, violates the law, it is the job of the state AGs to push back on that.” – AG Chris Mays [17:55]
5. Legal Strategy and Broader Stakes
- With the Arizona Supreme Court dominated by Republicans, Popok notes Mays is “walking into a buzzsaw” but has no choice but to pursue accountability, warning that abandoning prosecution would embolden repeat attempts at election subversion.
“She has to stand up and make a principled position. … She’s worried about the next slate of fake electors if they get away with it.” – Michael Popok [18:04]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On presidential pardons:
“Forget the pardons. That was just theatrics, that was just performative in order to give these people something to write in their obituaries.”
– Michael Popok [05:46] -
On legal technicalities:
“…because Chris Mays office did not present to the grand jury as they were rendering the indictment the text of the Electoral Count Act of 1887, that rendered the indictment invalid. I don’t see it. Chris Mays office doesn’t see it.”
– Michael Popok [07:12] -
On deterrence and defending democracy:
“Yes, do I want to send a message to future bad actors who might try to undermine American democracy? You bet I do. Because that's what the law is about.”
– AG Chris Mays [16:37] -
On the ongoing nature of the anti-democracy threat:
“What we're watching is an ongoing coup and an assault against the Constitution.”
– AG Chris Mays (as cited by Popok) [17:05]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [03:55] – AG Chris Mays’ indictment press conference clip: Laying out the fake elector prosecution
- [05:15–09:00] – Detailed legal distinctions on pardons and grand jury procedures
- [13:34–17:53] – Interview with AG Chris Mays: Election defense, deterrence, and the responsibilities of state attorneys general
- [18:04–18:45] – Popok’s commentary on legal strategy, risk, and necessity for accountability
Tone & Style
The episode maintains a hard-hitting, urgent, and conversational tone, with Popok providing direct, layman-accessible legal explanations and AG Mays offering candid, principled responses about the stakes for American democracy.
Conclusion
This episode delivers a deep dive into the Arizona fake elector case’s new legal chapter, highlighting the limitations of Trump’s federal pardons, the strategic choices of Arizona’s AG, and the broader imperative for state-level prosecutions to defend democracy. Through expert commentary and a focused interview, the podcast makes accessible the often-complex intersection of law and politics for its audience.