D (3:53)

After the general election on November 3, 2020, the defendants and other unindicted co conspirators raised false claims of widespread voter fraud in Arizona to protect pressure elections officials to change the outcome of a transparent, free and fair Democratic election. Those efforts ultimately failed when officials stood firm, followed their statutory duties and officially certified Arizona's election on November 30, 2020. The defendant Republican presidential electors, allegedly plotting with additional defendants, then voted for Mr. Trump and Vice President Pence on December 14, 2020. Falsely claiming to be the duly elected and qualified electors for President and Vice President of the United States from the State of Arizona, these defendants deceived the citizens of Arizona by falsely claiming that those votes were contingent only on a legal challenge that would change the outcome of the election. In reality, the defendants intended that the false votes for Trump and Pence would encourage Vice President Pence to reject the certified Biden Harris electors votes regardless of the result of any legal challenge.

C (5:15)

So that case got up and running the federal pardon that Donald Trump just did. Of these 18 people, including Christina Bob that is now a senior leader in, if you can believe it, in his Department of Homeland Security. Her title is Executive Secretary for the Department of Homeland Security, overseeing the management of written communication intended for and originated by the Secretary and Department of Secretary of Homeland Security. So anything you hate about Kristi Noem's public statements were probably written by Christina Bobb. Christina Bobb was a lawyer working alongside Rudy Giuliani on Team Crazy, as it was referred to during the January Six committee. She was sort of that year's Lindsey Halligan, if you know what I mean. And she's in the government, yet she was indicted by a state prosecutor. Federal presidential pardons don't help her or any of the rest of them. You know, for just a quick teachable moment, the pardon power under the, under Article 2 of the Constitution is absolute. I know that because the Supreme Court has recently said it. But that's only for federal crime. Donald Trump or any president has as much pardon power when it comes to state cases, state criminal cases or even civil cases that he has the same power that you and I have, meaning none. Only the governor or in some states a commission can grant a pardon of a state offense. And so forget the pardons. That was just theatrics, that was just performative in order to give these people something to right in their obituaries. That they got pardoned for the crimes that they committed doesn't mean they didn't commit the crimes, just means that they got a pardon. Now a lower level appellate court in Arizona ruled that. And it's a very Republican heavy state at the judiciary. I was just in Arizona. You'll see my interview with Chris Mays in a moment. It's a blue purple state when you talk to people and you see the politics. But the governors have been Republican lately and the judiciary is heavy Republican. So an appellate court ruled that because Chris Mays office did not present to the grand jury as they were rendering the indictment the text of the Electoral Count act of 1887 that rendered the indictment invalid. I don't see it. Chris Mays office doesn't see it. Prosecutors have to present the statutes, the criminal statutes that are being implicated by the conduct with clear language and instruction and legal instruction around the elements of a crime in the state. They have to present the evidence to show that there's probable cause in order to gain the indictment on a probable cause. Standard indictment, probable cause conviction beyond a reasonable doubt, completely different burden of proof. No one's in the grand jury except the lawyers for the prosecution team and occasionally witnesses. The defense can ask to participate, but there's no obligation to let them speak as a witness to the grand jury. And mostly they don't. So you have an obligation to give fair but frankly one sided information to the grand jury. If there's some evidence that's obvious that is exculpatory, meaning tends to prove the innocence of the defendant, then I think you have to present that. Or you may have to present that, but you don't have to present these alternate theories. See, the theory that the defense has, which would be their defense in front of a judge after being indicted, not grounds to dismiss an indictment, is that they were just contingency fake electors. They were alternate electors. They don't like to call themselves fake electors. And that they were only to spring into action if a federal court or some court called into question the election. Of course, in 80 lawsuits, no court called into question the election, including the United States Supreme Court. But that plan sort of morphed into something else. It was originally created by a combination of Ken Chesbrough, a lawyer, and John Eastman, a half baked constitutional lawyer. And they put up this plan and they said, oh, if there's a challenge, we'll have the fake electors, we'll have the alternate electors ready. But there was never a successful challenge. But that didn't matter because at the end, people like Mike Roman, who's also indicted the Election day coordinator for Donald Trump, said F in a famous email to Ken Chesbrough said F the electors. Get me a copy. I needed to give it to Mike Pence. He was like the mule for the certificates. But. And Chesbrough's like, but there's no lawsuit that declares the election invalid, so I don't care. So it went from alternate electors in their scheme to effectively fake electors where Mike Pence, Pence would, would be forced to recognize the slate of actual electors certified by the state, the governor, the secretary of state, Attorney General of each state, and then this slate of, you know, wacko fake electors. And then the goal was for Mike Pence as president tempore of the Senate to throw it over and say, I can't figure it out. There's all these competing slates of electors and I'm going to throw it to the Congress to pick the President. Forget the Electoral College, it would have gone to each delegation within the House and there's more red delegations than there are blue delegations. So it would have been Donald Trump all over again. That was the scheme. So the argument in the new filing, I'm going to read it to you now, is that there is no obligation to provide to the grand jury the Electoral count Act of 1887 because it is a federal statute, we're talking about state crimes and it's a non criminal statute. So it doesn't need to be provided to them at all. Everyone acts like they fully understand AI and meanwhile I'm over here arguing with my smart fridge. If you feel that way too.

E (11:23)

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C (13:21)

Now I asked Chris Mays as a lead up to her decision making. She was about to make the decision in about 48 hours after I asked her these questions. But I wanted you to see my interview with Chris Mays in case you missed it. Here's the interview with Chris Mase and.

F (13:34)

The other thing that's on our on the minds of our audience, you know, especially coming off of a big election night in America a couple of weeks ago is the elections at midterm and your office very publicly prosecuted 18 people related to the last election presidential election, 11 electors, fake electors, we refer to them in shorthand, and seven people in the inner circle for Donald Trump, including many of his lawyers. Many of those people have now received a federal pardon, although that doesn't help them with your case. I don't want to focus so much on what's happening with your particular case, but what does it mean for the future? What does your Attorney General office going to do to ensure people that their vote is going to count, that we're not going to have another certification problem.

C (14:20)

Or God forbid, Donald Trump makes good.

F (14:22)

On his attempts or his people around him to try to get on the.

C (14:25)

Ballot for a third term.

F (14:27)

What are you prepared to do?

G (14:28)

Look, I mean, we are prepared to, you know, protect our elections and we are prepared to enforce the law. And that is what we did when we took the fake electors case to the grand jury, which was, you know, we decided that it was important to present this case, let a grand jury decide. They decided to charge 18 individuals with an attempt in 2020 to essentially overthrow an election. And so what are we prepared to do? We will continue to uphold election law and to make sure that no one tries to overthrow an election.

F (15:18)

That's your message to the next fake elector?

G (15:19)

Yeah, I mean, in a sense, and it's an interest. Interesting question because, you know, this issue has come up in terms of the fake electors case. You know, there's an anti slap motion. We won't get too far into it, but basically we have these. We are the only state in the country that has a criminal anti slap law that allows defendants to claim that they were engaging in free speech and speech when they engaged in allegedly criminal acts. And there are civil anti slap laws across the country as well. What I worry about these anti slapp laws is that they are, you know, get out of jail free card or they're people are trying to use them that way. But, you know, criminal law as you know, is used as a deterrent. We want to determine illegal activity in the future. Arizona has, for instance, a death penalty. We have the death penalty in Arizona. And I think I'm the only democratic AG carrying out the death penalty in this country right now. Because it is the law of the land. The death penalty is a deterrent against people committing murder. That is what criminal law is by and large. It's not just punitive, but it also is designed to be a deterrent against future crime. And so, yes, do I want to send a message to future bad actors who might try to undermine American democracy? You bet I do. Because that's what the law is about. You know, I am out there saying I'm an attorney general who will enforce the law.

D (17:02)

That's my job.

C (17:02)

Yeah.

F (17:03)

And AG Mays, when you said in one of your early statements, speeches about against the Trump administration back in February, and so. Right, you said what we're watching is an ongoing coup and an assault against the Constitution.

C (17:21)

Let's talk about that, Yeah, I think.

G (17:23)

I was one of the first people to say that and to use that word. But I, you know, I believe strongly that we have to call it what it is. And it still is. You know, this is a president who is trying to overthrow American democracy and who on a daily and weekly basis, Michael, is violating our Constitution. That is why I have sued him 30 times. Because when any president, any president, and I would be doing this if it.

D (17:53)

Was a Democrat in power as well.

G (17:55)

Violates our Constitution, violates the law, it is the job of the state ags to push back on that.

C (18:04)

Okay, now she's walking into a buzzsaw, but she's fighting for our democracy because most the vast majority of the Supreme Court in Arizona is Republican. But I don't think she has a choice. She has to stand up and make a principled position, as you heard her say. She's going to enforce the law. There has to be repercussions. There has to be holding people accountable. She's worried about the next slate of fake electors if they get away with it. If she just threw up her hands and says, well, I'm going to walk away. It's too hard. They're, you know, they got federal pardons and, you know, it's 2024, 2025 already.

E (18:44)

She can't do that.

C (18:45)

And she didn't do that. That's why I'm so glad to have met her. And I'm going to be regularly having her on Legal AF with you here in order to debrief our audience at the intersection of law and politics. Take a minute and help us on Midas Touch. Hit the subscribe button there. But where we really need the help is on legal AF YouTube, because check to see if you are a subscriber. We're going to cross 970,000 subscribers this weekend. I think we're going to hit A Million Before Christmas and Hanukkah, but only with your help. And the bigger we get as an audience, the more street cred we have at the intersection of law and politics to be all things law and politics with our contributors. That's how we're able to bring on the American Civil Liberties Union regularly to give interviews. That's how we're able to bring on Democr Forward and Sky Perryman. That's how we're able to have our resident historians, Sidney Blumenthal and Sean Wallentz, or bring on, you know, Shan Wu, the former Attorney General, the former general counsel for the Attorney general, or the pragmatic optimists or Court Accountability Action or people like Dina Dahl and Civil Action and my own commentary and bring you the lawyers that are in the courtrooms fighting it out with Donald Trump every day so that you can get briefed by them. Take a minute. Come over to legal AF YouTube hit the subscribe button. No outside investors, no paywall. Come over to Legal AF Substack where I post the brief that was just filed by Chris Mays, Arizona Attorney General for you to read for yourself. So until my next report. I'm Michael Popak.

E (20:15)

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