Sky Perryman (2:37)

Great to see you.

Legal AF Host (2:38)

How are You, I'm doing great. And our audience loves, loves the slogan that's always up on your website. We go to court for people and democracy. But you saw some.

Sky Perryman (2:48)

That's what we do.

Legal AF Host (2:49)

Yeah, you saw some fantastic things. I know that you went to no Kings Day and marches in the D.C. area and virtualed in to the flagship one in Minnesota. What did you see in the crowds and courage of the American people on the streets this time around for no Kings Day?

Sky Perryman (3:06)

It's really amazing. I mean, you see over 8 million people across the country. And we saw people of all generations, all backgrounds here in Washington marching people from across the country. But you also saw that across the country, my hometown of Waco, Texas, which is kind of a red area. Right. You see even activated people in red areas and swing areas across the country, people all united together saying, we're going to be here together. No Kings. What is this administration doing? And we're not going to allow this administration to take our democracy down without hearing from the people. And so it was a really inspiring weekend for so many folks that were tuning in, watching marching.

Legal AF Host (3:48)

Let me show a clip that Democracy Forward has up on its social media. Sort of a compilation of, I don't wanna say the best of no Kings Day, but just to, just to frame it here, when you add up all of the marches, the 5501s, the hands off, the third no Kings Day, you're talking about 15 to 20% of the electorate hitting the streets. This isn't just the Trump derangement syndrome therapy session that the Trump administration calls it. These are voters, these are Americans and people.

Sky Perryman (4:17)

It's historic. It's historic.

Legal AF Host (4:20)

And so let's play the clip that's up on social media for Democracy Forward.

Protester/Activist (4:24)

This is what democracy looks like. This is what democracy looks like.

Concerned Customer (4:31)

The Constitution in this country does not defend itself. It has to be defended by people.

Protester/Activist (4:36)

Today is a movement. Let it be a reminder. A reminder that progress is real. A reminder that sacrifice brought us this far. A reminder that the job is not finished. What are you willing to do to be a part of the change that we are overdue and that we absolutely deserve? Engage in small acts of resistance. Join the big movements, share information.

Concerned Customer (5:03)

It has been very inspiring to see how many people are taking to the streets and just the clear message of no Kings that the American people are not going to let their democracy go down without a fight.

Protester/Activist (5:15)

And we stand today because we are rising in solidarity. We are standing today because we are clear that the power belongs to the people.

Legal AF Host (5:30)

And from your perspective, sky, how important is when our audience takes to the streets, when they participate in these events, when, as Rob Bonta and Chris Mays, our great attorneys general from California and Arizona, call it, crowds, courage, and courts, the three Cs that are important right now, we just saw crowds and courage in the streets that you, that you observed. How does that help you in the courts? Then we'll turn to some recent amazing victories for democracy forward.

Sky Perryman (6:03)

Well, the courage and the crowds and people across the country, they fuel the fight in the courts. We've always viewed the court cases that we have the privilege of filing, and we have filed hundreds of them since inauguration. And there have been over 700 total cases across the country, which is the largest and most successful affirmative litigation effort against an executive branch in US History. But we've always viewed the courts as a way for people to make their voice heard. You heard me on the clip that you just played. The Constitution doesn't defend itself. It's a piece of paper. The way we defend our Constitution is by using our constitutional rights. That includes the right to protest and march and assemble and use our voices. It also includes our ability to go to court and to challenge our government when they are violating our rights. And so we really see what we have seen in the courts from nearly day one with people across the country stepping forward to file these cases. Not necessarily powerful institutions, but people doing that. When powerful institutions have pulled back, when Donald Trump has said at the White House he wants to threaten everybody that files a lawsuit, people haven't been deterred. And that's why you have this tremendous legal effort that has served as a guardrail. And you're seeing people aren't deterred either by the historic numbers that we're seeing in these activations and no Kings protests and a range of other mobilizations across the country. So, you know, the tide is turning. The tide is turning on this administration. They never had the support of people on the issues. They had political support from the prior election for various reasons, in part because so many Americans didn't vote, were apathetic, didn't believe the system was delivering for them, and it wasn't. And we're not going to make excuses for that. But now you see the tide is turning, and this administration, this administration is really, has lost so much support.

Legal AF Host (7:52)

Yeah. And we have the new reporting that Donald Trump, advised by his closest advisor, Susie Wiles, the chief of staff, and his wife Melania, believe that their mass immigration deportation program, led by Stephen Miller, has been a. Has been a loser. For. For not only America, but for Donald Trump's electoral fortunes. And there's rumors out there that Stephen Miller's time in the administration is maybe coming to an end soon. One of the many. If we're to categorize the hundreds of cases that Democracy Forward's been handling, I'm just gonna do a rough cut and then you can fill in the blanks there. It has to do with cutting off of funding to the American people, immigration rights, including due process, right to counsel, voting, including using Department of Homeland Security and ICE to scare people out of voting. I mean, there's many other things, gender affirming, care and that type of thing, but. But for me, that seems to be where a lot of your cases are coming. We're coming up to the number I predicted at the start. The administration. I said if we don't see 4,000 cases filed by the end. And that's not even including the writ of habeas corpus.

Sky Perryman (9:00)

No, no. If you add those, I mean, we're already in the thousands.

Legal AF Host (9:04)

We hit my number already.

Sky Perryman (9:06)

Yeah.

Legal AF Host (9:06)

You know, it's like 1,000 the first administration, 4,000 this administration. We're certainly well on our way. But you've got some breaking news about in the immigration rights area that you can share with our audience along with some wins. I mean, you know, I'd love to have you on every day, but we'd have to have you on every day to talk about Democracy Forward's wins for democracy and people in the courtrooms. Why don't you share with our audience what's happened recently?

Sky Perryman (9:31)

Well, just as we were getting on, so I'm really excited to get to share this. You're the first person I've talked to about it. We received a federal court order that is going to restore status to individuals who are using the CBP1 app. App. App for. For their immigration. And so you'll recall, this is a program that the Biden administration put in place. These people have been doing everything they were supposed to do, filled out the right paperwork, show the right hearings, were waiting for their. For their status. And the administration had deprived all of the people who utilize the CBP1 app of. Tried to deprive all of them of their status, of their ability to continue to move through the immigration system. A federal court has said that is unlawful. We know it was manifestly unfair and un American, but a federal court has said that is unlawful. And so everybody we represent, a big class, is going to have their status restored. So this is a big day and a good Win. And really, I think, hopefully shows people that, as you said, this administration's agenda, I refuse to even call it an immigration agenda anymore, it's a power grab agenda. It hasn't done anything to actually tackle the hard issues we have around immigration policy in the country. It's just been a cruel agenda. And the administration has faced many setbacks. And of course, later this week, we're going to have the birthright citizenship argument. Cecilia Wang at the ACLU will be making those arguments. And I think the administration's going to face another big setback there as well, because they continue to operate in ways that are so unlawful and so harmful. So we're really excited here today at Democracy Forward. People outside the hall very excited about this win. And then we've received a number of positive court orders over the past week alone. I mean, a judge that was appointed by President Trump himself at Whipple in Minneapolis continuing to affirm our bid to make sure that people can access their lawyers and access counsel and holding the government to account for its, you know, its performative compliance with the court orders that we've won while it's still continuing to skirt it. You have them calling that government out for misstatements, misquotes, potentially the misuse of AI in the courtroom. All this from a judge that President Trump himself appointed. And so we want people to know is that the, the, the litigation's working, it's buying time, it's enabling people to use their voice. And you can see that it's motivating people because of historic crowds. We just joined this last weekend at no Kings.

Legal AF Host (12:06)

Absolutely. And, and listen, judges are people, too, and they see the crowds, I think in the first, this is my, my opinion. I'll get your view on it. First year federal judges, you know, listen, they were knocked to the canvas and trying to figure out what was in their tool. They didn't expect the defiance. They didn't expect the Department of Justice to be so disrespectful, both in making arguments that had no me and disregarding orders. We know why. Because people like Stephen Miller and Donald Trump was telling Department of Justice to disregard federal court orders. But in their second year, I think they're hitting their stride now, and I think they are empowered by what they're seeing as this wave of democracy and support for our values in the streets and around the world. And now we're seeing federal judges that are not shy about contempt, not shy about having the Department of Justice do an audit on itself about how many orders they have violated. And then taking steps or order to show cause to force Trump administration officials to take the stand under oath, they're coming up with new and creative ways against a defiant and lawless Trump administration. Right?

Sky Perryman (13:25)

Yeah. So, I mean, I think that the federal courts, the federal judges, I mean, first of all, I just want to say they've been incredibly courageous. They are doing their job, and there are lots of people in this country that are facing far more threats. So I don't want to minimize the threats that people, communities of color, immigration, immigrants, so many communities across the country, the LGBTQ community are facing right now. But the federal judges have been facing a lot of threats as well, with the president specifically targeting them and their families. And you see them continuing to interpret the law, to write their opinions, to, you know, not, you know, without regard to the politics of the moment, write their opinions and say what they need to say, including if it's someone that President Trump himself appointed, which is what we've seen in a number of our cases. But I do think initially they struggled with. With two things. I think the court struggled with the speed at which the administration was operating. I mean, we were ready for the speed at Democracy Forward. We got into court early. Like, you know, we read Project 2025. We took it seriously. The state AGs did the same thing. But I think the courts initially were like, how do you know the administration is going to do this if DOGE is at the door of. Of labor? And so it took them a minute, I think, to really see the speed at which it's operating, and they've been able to move much quicker as time has moved on. So that was sort of one area. And then the other area is, you know, you learn about lack of compliance in law school. I mean, these are kind of academic things that you learn about. But I was talking to some lawyers the other day that have, like, civil practices and criminal practices that are not really focused on government action. And it's like, you might have one case, your entire career, an entire career of a 40, 45 career, where you're litigating contempt issue. I mean, that's just not something that lawyers do every day. And so I think that the federal courts, too. I mean, we as lawyers had to. At first, it's like, do you really go in and make a big deal about this? I mean, what's going on? Maybe it's a mistake.

Legal AF Host (15:17)

No.

Sky Perryman (15:18)

The federal courts are now seeing that the government doesn't have that presumption, what we call that presumption of regularity. And so it's been inspiring to see the courts adjust using the tools that are their tools. They're not making up new tools or not finding new tools, but we're having to, we're having to build our muscle. It's a muscle memory. And I think that's actually what you see with the people. I mean, these are not new tools. I mean, mass demonstrations, direct non violent action to overcome big barriers to our freedom. Those have been the tools that movements in this country, that people in this country have used. But the American people needed to, you know, remember those tools and, and kind of work out a little bit. And I think that's what you see with these demonstrations that are building and building and building. And we're going to need it because it's coming straight for the elections. We're going to need it.

Legal AF Host (16:01)

Absolutely. So the anti war protests, civil rights protests, and we're looking back and we're standing on the shoulders of that and realizing, no, we have to, we have to take to the streets. As to the federal judges, you're exactly on point. I've been doing this for 35 years. I've had one contempt proceeding I had to deal with, with somebody on the other side.

Sky Perryman (16:19)

Right.

Legal AF Host (16:19)

I mean, and judges didn't, you know, judges didn't sit, you were doing tabletop exercises and learning as we were about Project 2025. Judges weren't doing that at a judge school about what do we think is coming up next week? Yeah, they weren't doing that. And so it's, it's been really heartening to see and we've, we've platformed a number of federal judges who are doing something extraordinary and courageous. They're speaking out as sitting federal judges, not even waiting till retirement. They're speaking out now about the Trump administration, not just wearing their black robe, but in interviews, on panels on things, on legal, afraid because I think they're also, as you said, encouraged about the support that's out there for the American, you know, from the American people. Let me, let me turn quickly here at the end about the United States Supreme Court, because one of the things I found from our audience, understandably so much information, is that they, they tend to focus on the important cases and I'm not minimizing them at the United States Supreme Court, the 70 cases or even the 10 cases at the Supreme Court and not the thousands of cases that really affect their life and what we consider to be our constitutional republic. And so we've got a series of cases, you know, as we lead into birthright citizenship as an oral argument tomorrow. And we'll be having that as a live feed on legal af. You know, we got a, we got an opinion just today as you and I came on the air about gender affirming.

Sky Perryman (17:47)

Yes.

Legal AF Host (17:48)

8181, right. About, you know, the conversion. Yeah. Conversion therapy now, you know, licensed therapists can try to convert people, you know, and use that kind of voodoo on people's minds about what they're about what their gender identity is. And because and that went 8 to 1 as a First Amendment right that couldn't be regulated against Written by Neil Gorsuch. Talk touch on whatever you like about the Supreme Court, including birthright citizenship. But how you see that and, and some despondency among our audience about hearing about the Supreme Court rulings and thinking

Sky Perryman (18:25)

all is not we understand the despondency. I mean, and the Supreme Court, as we know, in a range of decisions over the past few years and you can look back through history and find that there are many times throughout history has not consistently been protecting the rights of all Americans. And you can see that with big, high profile cases like Dobbs, you can see that with smaller things that are on the shadow docket that ness that also have a range of implications for people in communities. But first of all, let me be very clear. This president is not going to win 100%, 100% of the time at the Supreme Court. He hasn't been winning 100% of the time at the Supreme Court. And he's going to face significant, significant, significant hurdles there even, even given the politics of the court. And we're going to continue to see that, and you heard it here first, but the second piece of this is the court system is a system. The judicial system is a system. And while the Supreme Court is the highest court in the land, as you mentioned, there's only a fraction of cases that go there. Of those 700 plus cases that have brought against the Trump administration, less than 5% have or will go to the Supreme Court, including, including with the administration's desire to go to the Supreme Court all the time on the shadow docket and in this accelerated pace. And so, so what we are encouraging people to do is to look at it as an overall system. Susie Wiles, Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, they will all admit, and they have, that the courts and the judiciary in this country have been slowing and stopping some of their most priority items. Slowing, buying time, exposing. That's the work of the court system. It may not be the work of the Supreme Court, but that is what this judicial system has done. Now, as we look forward to the future, the American people have power to insist on reforms to any institution that is not serving the American people, not serving our constitutional rights. And so I think that there are going to be important conversations and work to do as we move out of this moment, when we get to move out of this moment to help restore the American people's trust in our judicial system and our department, Department of Justice, but also in our Supreme Court. Things like an enforceable code of ethics. This should not be some radical proposal. I mean, the Supreme Court needs to operate with an enforceable code of ethics. There are many reforms that people can demand as we get to a new moment. But I will say that if you take a look at it overall, it is the courts and it's the people that have been pushing back. And that's precisely why the president has threatened lawyers and judges, is because it's working so. So much so it may not feel that way on a day to day basis, but. But that's a bit of hope for people and a bit of dose of reality as to what we're seeing.

Legal AF Host (21:09)

Absolutely. And we'll cover the birthright citizenship over on Legal af. Love to have you back, Sky. Great talk about, you know, like on an hourly basis. I mean, this is where I mean every day.

Sky Perryman (21:20)

Yes, yes, yes.

Legal AF Host (21:21)

Okay.

Sky Perryman (21:21)

Well, thank you so much. Thank you.

Legal AF Host (21:23)

Congratulations to your, your team of phenomenal lawyers accomplishing, accomplishing for our our public. You're on legal AF YouTube channel. Take a moment, hit the free subscribe button especially. That's your way to vote for this type of content. Sky Perryman of Democracy 4, thanks for being on.

Sky Perryman (21:40)

Thank you.

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