Wow: Trump Accidentally Accuses Himself of Crimes?!

Summary

Legal AF by MeidasTouch

Episode: "Wow: Trump Accidentally Accuses Himself of Crimes?!"

Date: December 13, 2025

Hosts: Ben Meiselas, Michael Popok, Karen Friedman Agnifilo

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Overview

This episode delves into the ongoing controversies around mortgage fraud accusations—including those leveraged by Donald Trump against his political adversaries—and the revelation that Trump himself may have engaged in the very conduct he decries. The hosts break down new ProPublica reporting implicating Trump, examine the political and legal double standards at play, and analyze why many of these accusations aren’t crimes in the first place.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Mortgage Fraud Accusations: The Pot Calling the Kettle Black

• Trump’s Public Accusations:
  Trump and his allies have leveled “mortgage fraud” allegations at his rivals, including Lisa Cook (Federal Reserve) and Letitia James (New York Attorney General), seeking to undermine or even get them removed from their positions.

  • Trump accused Cook of fraud for taking out two loans and allegedly listing both as “primary residences”.
  • He similarly accused Letitia James of fraud for allegedly saving $50/month on a mortgage by declaring a residence wasn’t going to be rented, even though she let family stay over.

• The Irony Revealed:
  ProPublica’s new reporting shows that Trump himself did the very thing he accuses others of—taking out two “primary residence” mortgages for Florida properties during the 1990s (05:11).

• Notable Quote:

  “Donald Trump and mortgage fraud just seem to go together like peanut butter and jelly. Especially when you live in a glass house like Donald Trump, and you accuse your political rivals ... of committing mortgage fraud.”
  — Michael Popok (01:36)

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2. ProPublica Investigation and Its Findings

• Deep Dive into the Report:

  • ProPublica found that at least 20% of Trump's cabinet engaged in similar “double primary residence” mortgage applications (04:05).
  • These applications sometimes secured preferable mortgage rates, but often with the knowledge or encouragement of the banks involved.

• Trump’s Florida Properties:

  • In 1993/1994, while under financial strain in New York, Trump obtained two mortgages in Palm Beach, both labeled as “primary residences”—despite never actually living in them (05:26).
  • Instead, he rented them out as investment properties.

• Bank’s Awareness and The Reality of “Fraud”:

  • Banks likely knew about the real status of these properties due to due diligence and title searches.
  • Such activity is generally considered a “commercially acceptable practice” if there’s no actual deception or loss to the bank (10:17).

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3. Political Weaponization and Legal Double Standards

• Trump Allies’ Prosecution Referrals:

  • Bill Pulte, whose family also engaged in similar conduct, formally referred Lisa Cook and others for prosecution based on “fraud.”

  • Notable Quote:

    “Bill Pulte ... even his parents have committed what he refers to as mortgage fraud because they claimed a property in Michigan as their primary residence when they really lived in Palm Beach County, Florida.”
    — Michael Popok (06:24)

• Hypocritical Defenses:

  • When Trump was challenged, the defense from his White House was that a bank who issues both loans cannot defraud itself (08:13).

  • This mirrors the defense available to Lisa Cook—highlighting the hypocrisy.

  • Notable Quote:

    “Since the same lender for Donald Trump was being used for both loans, there could be no defraudation ... and it would be illogical for the same lender to have approved the loans and defrauded themselves.”
    — Michael Popok (08:18)

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4. Legal Realities: Is It Mortgage Fraud?

• Host Analysis:
  • The hosts clarify that, in most of these cases, there is no actionable fraud since banks are aware or complicit, and there is no loss or intent to deceive beyond standard banking practices.
  • Michael Popok: “There’s plenty of ways and due diligence a bank to determine ... whether there's fraud, because there's no fraud here. I don’t even think Donald Trump did [commit mortgage fraud] ... but we'll continue to follow it.” (10:44)

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5. Supreme Court Implications and Next Steps

• SCOTUS Case on Lisa Cook:

  • The Supreme Court will hear arguments on whether Trump can fire Lisa Cook from the Federal Reserve over these unproven mortgage fraud allegations—expected in January (09:37).

  • Strategic Tip:
    Popok suggests Lisa Cook’s lawyers use the Trump defense as evidence in her favor.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Michael Popok, on Trump’s Hypocrisy:

  “All of this double talk, all of this, don’t do as I say, do as I do … that Donald Trump and his minions are using to defend his own, apparently his own mortgage fraud.”
  (09:55)

• Michael Popok, on Uniform Practice:

  “The reality is none of this is mortgage fraud. This is all commercially acceptable practices within banks to reward or benefit clients.”
  (10:19)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:36 – Introduction to Trump’s use of “mortgage fraud” accusations as a political attack
• 05:11 – ProPublica finds Trump did the same double mortgage primary filings he accuses others of
• 06:24 – Bill Pulte’s parents’ similar conduct and weaponization of mortgage fraud claims
• 08:18 – White House defense: banks cannot defraud themselves when issuing both loans
• 09:37 – SCOTUS to hear Lisa Cook case; potential defense strategies
• 10:17-10:44 – Analysis: Why none of this is typically prosecuted as fraud

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Tone

The episode maintains the hosts’ signature incisive legal analysis and biting wit, especially as they highlight the hypocrisy and political motivations behind these so-called “mortgage fraud” accusations. The language remains direct, occasionally sarcastic, yet always rooted in legal nuance and evidence.

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Summary

This episode exposes the circular logic and hypocrisy in Trump’s recent attacks on political rivals over “mortgage fraud”—attacks that are undercut by his own past conduct. Leveraging new investigative reporting, the hosts unravel the legal realities of mortgage paperwork and emphasize how common (and non-criminal) these practices typically are. They preview how these issues may soon land before the Supreme Court and offer strategic advice to those wrongly accused, all while maintaining a sharp, engaging tone.

Transcript

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Claiming that that's crooked and criminal and should be made. There should be a criminal prosecution referral because she took out two loans from the same lender on two different properties and checked the box for primary residence. And lo and behold, she claims that. He claims that Letitia James, the New York Attorney General, another major political rival of his, who successfully obtained a $400 million fraud judgment against him for mortgage fraud, that she committed mortgage fraud by saving $50 a month. $50 a month, everybody. She checked a box that said she wasn't gonna rent the house out to anybody, and she let some of her family stay there. Oh, the crimes that are being committed. And then points to people like Adam Schiff, who says he. He has a couple of. A couple of properties that he shouldn't own, both listed as his primary residence. And lo and behold, that got a lot of investigative reporters thinking, huh? Wonder if Donald Trump or anybody in his administration have done the exact same thing. And ProPublica has been on the case from day one. About a month or so ago, I reported the ProPublica had found that at least 20% of Donald Trump's cabinet, including his Treasury Secretary, his head of the Department of Labor, and the head of the Transportation Department, all had exactly the same types of double primary residence mortgage documents, meaning that banks let them check the box for primary to give them a slightly lower mortgage rate. And they took advantage of it because, frankly, it's not a crime. It's not a crime if the banks aren't being defrauded, if they encourage you to check the box, if they want to give you the lower interest rate, that's between the mortgage lender, the banker, his underwriter at the bank, and his God. I mean, if there was any. If there was any miscommunication on that issue. So that was the first reporting, but now we got brand new reporting that ties it directly to Donald Trump. See, back in 1993 and 1994, when Donald Trump was trying to figure out whether he could live at Mar A Lago year round as a residence and hadn't gotten that approved yet because it was a club and he was still living in New York, crushed under the weight of 7 or $800 million worth of bankruptcy debt. Oh, yes, he decided to buy a couple of pieces of property in Palm beach adjacent to or near Mar a Lago, one for about $500,000 mortgage and the other for about a million two. And he claimed in those mortgage documents. According to ProPublica, who got a copy of them from the Merrill lynch bank documents, he claimed that both were gonna be his primary residences, that he was gonna relocate within the next six months and he was gonna live in both houses as his primary residence. You see the problem already. First of all, he never relocated to Florida, except in 2007 he stayed in New York or actually 2019 became his permanent residence. He always split time between New York, which was his residence, and Florida. But he checked the box for this primary residence for two pieces of property. He never lived in either piece of property, according to a real estate agent who helped rent him rent out the properties. Instead, he always rented them out at 2 and $3,000 a day to people that wanted to stay in these investment properties. So Donald Trump, seeing these facts about somebody else would say they are quoting him. This is deceitful and criminal and crooked. Bill Pulte, who's his the Nepo baby that runs Freddie Mae and Fannie Mac, who went after on behalf of Donald Trump, Lisa Cook on the Federal Reserve, Letitia James, New York Attorney General, Adam Schiff, all for quote unquote mortgage fraud. He said about, for instance, about this type of double primary residence box checking the way that Donald Trump did it, that that should subject the person to a, it's a crime and there should be a criminal prosecution referral. And then he made a prosecution referral to the Department of Justice. Now, Bill Pulte is interesting because even his own parents have committed what he refers to as mortgage fraud because they claimed a property in Michigan as their primary residence when they really lived in Palm Beach County, Florida the whole time. Now the Michigan tax collector has gotten back the money for that quote, unquote fraud by Bill Pulte's own parents.

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So I also found that the defense that the Trump administration White House is using actually helps Lisa Cook in her case against Donald Trump. So if you're listening, Lisa Cook's lawyers, Abby Lowell, listen to this one. Because the White House said the following. They said that since the same lender for Donald Trump, Merrill lynch, was being used for both loans, there could be no defraudation. That's a big word, defraudation. And it would be illogical for the same lender to have approved the loans and defrauded themselves. And so a fraud case would be illogical. And then of course, they went off. Oh, this is just another leftist attack on Donald Trump, you know, and all that. Okay. Now Lisa Cook on the Federal Reserve took out two mortgages, one for her primary residence in Michigan and one for a vacation home in Atlanta. Took it out from the same credit union. Check the box because I'm sure she was told to do it by her loan officer to get her the better rate. Primary residences she never made. Atlanta was always a second home for her and it is. And she lives in Michigan. But this is the exact same thing that the White House has just said is the defense for Donald Trump, same lender, couldn't defraud themselves. No crime here. Same for Lisa Cook. So if I'm Abby Lowell and Lisa Cook's lawyers, I file an updated set of material to the United States Supreme Court to supplement the record and do it below as well. Cuz the Supreme Court said they're gonna hold oral argument about whether Donald Trump can fire Lisa Cook, whether he has the cause to fire her based on these allegations of mortgage fraud. Unproven. That's gonna be front and center in January at an oral argument with the United States Supreme Court, which of course we will follow on Legal AF YouTube channel. Come over there, become a subscriber there as well. I'm going to follow all of this double talk, all of this, all of this, don't do as I say, do as I do. Whatever the phrase is that Donald Trump and his minions are using to defend his own apparently his own mortgage fraud. The reality is none of this is mortgage fraud. This is all commercially acceptable practices within banks to reward or benefit clients. Underwriting in the bank knows that this isn't the primary residence or knows there's more than one. It's very simple to do a title record search to find out if the person has a second home or not, has a first home or not, is renting out the home or not. There's plenty of ways and due diligence a bank to determine which they're obligated to do, whether they're whether there's fraud, because there's no fraud here. I don't think Scott Bessant committed mortgage fraud. I don't think the Labor Secretary did. I don't think. I don't even think More I don't even think Donald Trump did. Certainly it was 40 years ago, but we'll continue to follow it. The the complete lack of ethics as Donald Trump uses perfectly acceptable conduct that he himself did to go after his political enemies. Till my next report, I'm Michael Popak. Can't get your fill of Legal af? Me neither. That's why we formed the Legal AF Substack. Every time we mention something in a hot take, whether it's a court filing or a oral argument, come over to the substack. You'll find the court filing and the oral argument there, including a daily roundup that I do called Wait for it Morning af. What else? All the other contributors from Legal A for there as well. We got some new reporting, we got interviews, we got ad free versions of the podcast and hot takes where Legal AF on Substack. Come over now to free subscribe.

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