Legal Innovation Simplified Podcast Summary
Episode: What If Lawyers Weren’t the Heroes? Hallie J. Pope on Solidarity by Legal Design for Housing Justice [Ep. 8]
Release Date: February 19, 2025
Host: Hannele Korhonen
Guest: Hallie J. Pope, Director of the New Jersey Legal Design Lab at Seton Hall Law School

Introduction

In Episode 8 of Legal Innovation Simplified, host Hannele Korhonen engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Hallie J. Pope, the Director of the New Jersey Legal Design Lab. The discussion centers around redefining the role of lawyers in social change, emphasizing solidarity over traditional advocacy through the lens of legal design for housing justice.

Redefining Legal Advocacy: Solidarity vs. Heroic Advocacy

Hallie J. Pope challenges the conventional notion of lawyers as the primary agents of social change. She introduces the concept of "solidarity by design," advocating for a collaborative approach where lawyers support and empower communities rather than positioning themselves as heroes or sole champions.

“Solidarity shifts the relationship… we are supporting, we are facilitating.” ([05:47])

Hallie contrasts solidarity with advocacy, explaining that while advocacy involves lawyers championing on behalf of others, solidarity emphasizes mutual support and shared power.

Founding the New Jersey Legal Design Lab

Hallie discusses the inception of the New Jersey Legal Design Lab, founded by her colleague Abdourah Man Khan, who has extensive experience in eviction representation. The lab aims to address the housing crisis by integrating law education with design thinking to empower local housing justice movements.

“It is an endeavor that is co-created with people who are impacted by the housing crisis.” ([02:18])

As the new director, Hallie emphasizes a learner’s mindset, collaborating closely with tenants, organizers, policymakers, and other stakeholders to ensure the lab’s initiatives are grounded in the community’s real needs.

Historical Perspectives on Social Movements and Legal Roles

Drawing from historical accounts, Hallie highlights that significant social changes have often been driven by the very communities affected by injustice rather than by lawyers themselves. Referencing works like Jane McAlevey’s No Shortcuts and I’ve Got the Light of Freedom by Payne, she underscores that ordinary people are the true agents of change.

“History shows us… when ordinary people’s power effectively challenged elite rule.” ([19:45])

This perspective reinforces her belief that lawyers should facilitate and nurture community-led movements rather than lead them.

Impact on the Legal Profession and Mental Health

Hallie addresses the culture within the legal profession that values certainty and expertise, often at the expense of mental health. She cites a study by Tang and Foley, which links the profession’s intolerance of uncertainty to its high rates of mental health issues.

“Design encourages us to sit in that ambiguity and embrace it… It’s joyful for us to make those connections.” ([11:43])

Embracing design thinking allows lawyers to collaborate more effectively, share knowledge, and experience collective joy, thereby improving both professional effectiveness and personal well-being.

Real-Life Project: Tenant Association in Montclair

Hallie shares a detailed case study of a project undertaken by the Legal Design Lab’s Housing Justice and Legal Design Clinic. Collaborating with tenant leaders Rosie and Rhea, along with students and organizers, they co-designed tools to support the formation of a tenant association in a mixed-income building facing numerous habitability issues.

Project Phases:

1. Discovery and Mapping:

   • Conducted design jams and brainstorming sessions with tenants and stakeholders to identify key challenges and opportunities.
   • Mapped out stakeholders’ influence and alignment with the project’s mission.

2. Co-Creation of Tools:

   • Students and tenants collaboratively generated ideas, leading to prototypes such as:
     • Informational flyers and meeting templates.
     • Tenant newsletter templates for community building.
     • An issue tracker to organize and prioritize tenant complaints.

3. Feedback and Iteration:

   • Presented prototypes back to the tenants for feedback.
   • Initiated ongoing collaboration to refine and implement the tools.

“One of the best things about this project was having the students really learn to view the tenants as their collaborators and as experts in their own experiences.” ([34:00])

The project not only provided practical tools but also empowered tenants by reinforcing their agency as change-makers.

Reimagining the Role of Lawyers

Hallie emphasizes that redefining the lawyer’s role does not diminish their importance but rather repositions them as essential allies in community-led initiatives. By transferring power and fostering mutual respect, lawyers can enhance the impact of social justice efforts.

“We still very much have a place in this, it's just a matter of reimagining what it is.” ([20:54])

Personal Journey and Encouragement for Lawyers

Hallie reflects on her transition from traditional lawyering to embracing legal design, highlighting the fulfillment she finds in creative and collaborative work. She encourages lawyers to integrate their creative skills into their legal practice to broaden their impact.

“Your creativity is a superpower. … Let the folks you’re working with know.” ([38:34])

Her own experience serves as a testament to the diverse paths available within the legal field, advocating for a more holistic and empathetic approach to legal practice.

Conclusion: Embracing Solidarity and Collective Impact

The conversation concludes with a reaffirmation of the importance of solidarity, collective knowledge, and mutual support in driving meaningful social change. By shifting from a hero-centric model to one of shared responsibility and empowerment, the legal profession can more effectively address systemic injustices.

“Together we have collective knowledge, and we know so much more than the sum of our parts.” ([14:04])

Key Takeaways

• Solidarity Over Advocacy: Lawyers should support community-led initiatives, sharing power and fostering mutual respect.
• Design Thinking: Integrating design principles can enhance legal strategies and empower affected communities.
• Historical Context: Social movements are most effective when led by those directly impacted, not solely by lawyers or external advocates.
• Mental Health: Embracing uncertainty and collaborative approaches can improve mental well-being within the legal profession.
• Practical Application: Real-life projects like the tenant association demonstrate the effectiveness of co-designed legal tools in empowering communities.
• Personal Growth: Lawyers are encouraged to incorporate their unique skills and creativity into their practice to drive social justice.

Notable Quotes

• “Solidarity shifts the relationship… we are supporting, we are facilitating.” — Hallie J. Pope ([05:47])
• “History shows us… when ordinary people’s power effectively challenged elite rule.” — Hallie J. Pope ([19:45])
• “Design encourages us to sit in that ambiguity and embrace it… It’s joyful for us to make those connections.” — Hallie J. Pope ([11:43])
• “Your creativity is a superpower. … Let the folks you’re working with know.” — Hallie J. Pope ([38:34])
• “Together we have collective knowledge, and we know so much more than the sum of our parts.” — Hallie J. Pope ([14:04])

Final Thoughts

This episode of Legal Innovation Simplified offers a transformative perspective on the legal profession’s role in social justice. By embracing solidarity and design thinking, lawyers can collaborate more effectively with communities, fostering genuine empowerment and sustained impact.

For more insights and strategies on scaling law with heart and purpose, subscribe to Legal Innovation Simplified and join Hannele Korhonen each week as she navigates the intersection of legal design, business strategy, and growth mindset.