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Legends of the Wild, A Field And Stream Production | Hunting, Fishing and the Outdoors
Episode 17 - Boundary Waters Under Threat: Why Sportsmen Must Speak Up Now With Lukas Leaf
00:48:49
One vote could change the future of North America’s most iconic wilderness waters.
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- [00:02]
A
This is Legends of the Wild presented by Field and Stream. Let's get into it, Everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Legends of the Wild. Today I am joined by Lucas Leaf of sportsman for the Boundary Waters. We are going to talk about everything Boundary Waters related as that is a kind of a hot topic right now when it comes to the world of conservation. And it's kind of funny that we're doing this now because I actually recorded a real little mini episode with Lucas a couple months ago about this when nothing was really happening. But before we get into all that, Lucas, welcome to the show. Glad to have you on and just excited to talk about the Boundary Waters and everything that means for sportsmen and women and anybody who likes to recreate outside.
- [00:54]
B
Yeah. Sam, thank you so much for having me on. It's an honor and a pleasure. I appreciate you taking the time.
- [01:00]
A
Absolutely. You know, like it was when all of the current stuff that's going on, you know, went through the house. We'll get into all this, but basically there's a moratorium on a, on a mine that could be near the Boundary Waters. And the reason I wanted to have you on is because it's a, this is a time sensitive issue and this is something like, you know, people are always wondering how they can get involved in conservation. And that's why I wanted to do this, like, show immediately, because it's like we need to, you know, have people speak up, talk about this stuff and at least explain and educate people on, on what's happening. So before we dive into everything that's going on with the Twin metals mine and what this moratorium actually is, why don't we talk about, for people who are listening, most probably have an idea of like, or at least an idea of the Boundary Waters themselves, but maybe just dive into the Boundary Waters where it is in the world, what it is and, and why it's so special to people like us.
- [01:58]
B
Yeah, for sure. I mean, so Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. It's a designated wilderness area in northeast Minnesota. Roughly 1.1 million acres of lakeland wilderness. Interconnected lake, streams, rivers only accessible by canoe and your own personal power. World class fishing, hunting, camping, hiking, birding. I mean, it is open and accessible to everyone from, you know, families bringing their infant in to, you know, grandparents taking, you know, their 50th anniversary trip.
- [02:33]
A
Right.
- [02:34]
B
So, like, it is, it is a gorgeous, wonderful, super important, water rich area here in Minnesota that is super important, obviously to hunters and anglers, but also all outdoor recreationists across the country. And it's not only for Minnesotans. Right. I mean, it's public land that's owned by everybody and, and it's also, you know, recreated by, by people across the country as well. So super cool area. You know, it also, it also is super important to the outdoor, you know, recreation economy up in northeast Minnesota. There's tons of different outfitters and businesses that are ready and willing to help you on your journey and your first trip or, or if you're, you know, again, like your 30th or 40th trip in. Right. You know, you can use your own personal gear or you can, you know, frequent one of those places and help give them business as well.
- [03:32]
A
Yeah, for sure. And it's, it's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is the most visited wilderness area in the country, right?
- [03:39]
B
It is, yeah. You know, it fluctuates, you know, you know, 10, 15,000 visitors a year, but you know, it's between 150 and 165,000 visitors a year that, that are marked via permitting. Right. So.
- [03:53]
A
Right.
- [03:53]
B
The permits are accessible. April thirst first through October 1st. Outside of that, you know, it's a lot of the, it dies down a little bit and you have the folks that are going up to hunting fish at the same time, you know, we call it cast blast.
- [04:08]
A
Right.
- [04:08]
B
And then a lot of winter recreation for, for cross country skiing, for ice fishing, for winter camping. So that number definitely increases depending upon, you know, what, what numbers you're looking at for sure.
- [04:23]
A
And that's a, that's a lot of people when you consider that it's all under like your own personal power. You know, it's like you have a lot of it. You obviously can't access it via, you know, four wheeler, side by side or.
- [04:34]
B
Dirt bike or whatever.
- [04:35]
A
It's all, you know, canoe in type stuff. Portage.
- [04:38]
B
Yeah. So some of the border lakes, right, that are, have, have portions where you can, you know, snowmobile and stuff like that, but everything inside, you're carrying your own gear across portages, you're carrying your canoe. You can't have any, you know, you know, mechanical assistance. Right. So you're going ice fishing, you're not using a power auger, you're using a hand auger.
- [04:58]
A
So. Right.
- [04:59]
B
Yeah, you got to be, you got to be very specific and, and you know, the choices you make on, on where you're going to do that because you got to put a lot of work in to get lines in the water there.
- [05:09]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So where, so explain the twin metals mine and Go back as far as you need to to kind of paint the picture for people like where this all started. Like, I mean, how long ago did Twin Metals decide that they wanted to place a mine near the Boundary Waters watershed?
- [05:28]
C
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- [06:02]
A
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- [06:22]
B
Know, this, this fight, you know, really started gaining steam, you know, around a decade ago. And it's, and it's played sort of hopscotch back and forth between, you know, different administrations and, you know, approvals, denials, et cetera. You know, Twin Metals getting leases, getting leases removed. In 2023, the Department of Interior under Secretary Deb Haaland under the Biden administration, instituted what's called a 20 year moratorium on mineral leasing in roughly 225,000 acres surrounding the Boundary Waters in the Superior National Forest. That moratorium, or a public land order, essentially bars any companies from starting a new sulfide or copper mine, which is what we're trying to prevent. And that's what Twin Metals is. So Twin Metals Minnesota is a subsidiary of Anapagasta, which is a Chilean mining conglomerate. They are seeking to mine for specifically copper and nickel and some other, you know, minerals as well. But those are, those are really the main ones because of the rich deposit, you know, throughout northeast Minnesota. That's called the Duluth complex. Sure. Essentially, you know, the issue here is, is that this mine is so close to the Boundary Waters border on a lake called Birch Lake. You know, extremely water rich environment. That area where that mine is proposed is upstream of the Boundary Waters. If it were to pollute, and as we know, factually, all of these, this type of mine has in some form polluted the waterways Surrounding it historically.
- [08:11]
A
Yeah, 100% of the time.
- [08:13]
B
Right, 100%. And just recently Anifa Gassa in one of their, one of their home turf mines was fined nearly $800,000 for not following regulatory processes. So I mean, so this is a company that is not following their processes properly on their home turf that is also trying to start a mine here for Coppernickel mine. Let's be very clear on that. This isn't iron ore or taconite, which is, you know, the backbone of the iron range of northeast Minnesota, which again, a lot of, a lot of, you know, organizations like ours, we make sure to point out that this isn't an anti mining, you know, organization or movement. Yeah, we're focused specifically on this mine because of what, because of the potential damage it, it has.
- [09:06]
A
Yeah.
- [09:06]
B
In that area.
- [09:07]
A
Yeah. Right, yeah. It's not, you're not anti progress, you're not anti extraction. It's, it's trying to educate people on why this is a dangerous mine in the location that it's at. It's not so much. Yeah. Like, and even if the, you know, the mining company, the, you know, people like doing all of the mining are doing everything to a T, there's still such a high chance of polluting like this massive amount of freshwater. Like it's, it's hard to, it's hard for me to see the positive in that when you know, like there's even a chance of polluting some. Such an incredible place that has been protected for so long.
- [09:47]
B
Yeah, exactly. I mean, we can't recreate areas like this. We can't recreate cherished landscapes like the Boundary Waters that are important to everybody, you know, across the board and across, you know, America, the world.
- [10:01]
A
Right.
- [10:03]
B
It is just so incredibly important that we keep, you know, this is one of the most important resources water that we have. And you know, you reference, you know, the, the water source itself and I mean, so the Boundary Waters is in the Superior National Forest. The Superior National Forest, roughly 3 million acres, holds 20% of the fresh water in the entire national forest system, which is roughly 193 million acres. I mean that is a, a national forest that is 2% of the collective whole of the national forest system holding 20% of the freshwater. Right. Which is, which is an incredible number. Right. And that is what we're fighting for.
- [10:43]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and that's like, like you said, water is such a precious resource that I mean, even on the off chance that it like would be polluted is I, I, you know, I'M not a politician. Right. So I'm not sitting there making these laws and I'm not seeing, you know, the, the back side of all of these things and why they might want to push this through and what money's flowing where and that kind of thing. But like, just from, from somebody who likes to recreate in clean and wild places, it's like, well, that's a no brainer. So what's going on right now as far as, so you said before we started this, it was like, this was like the three year anniversary of that moratorium, right?
- [11:24]
B
Yeah, we're, we're right there. Right. And it was supposed to be a 20 year moratorium to, to take a step back, allow for, you know, let's be honest, either tech, technology to catch up.
- [11:36]
A
Yeah.
- [11:36]
B
Or to, or to decide on the fact that, you know, this is a space worth permanent protection through congressional action.
- [11:45]
A
Yeah.
- [11:45]
B
And again. Yeah, we're in, we're in the third year of that in 20 years. There's still a lot to go. I mean, it was, it was a collective effort and huge win for the outdoor industry. Hunters, anglers, again, campers, hikers, folks that don't even, you know, recreate in the area. It was a, it was a historic collective win for everybody. And an example across the board of, of how we do need to protect spaces like this. So, you know, where we're at now is, you know, we, we are in, of course, the, the Trump administration. And you know, leading up, leading up to January, there was, there was public indication, Representative Pete Stauber of, you know, who, who represents the district that the Boundary Waters is in, they were all pushing, you know, publicly saying that they were going to approve this mine in some form. Right. So the 20 or more times in place, Twin Metals did not have its leases. Still does not have its leases.
- [12:48]
A
Yep.
- [12:49]
B
And you know, just recently now, what did happen was Representative Pete Stauber introduced what's called a House joint resolution in the House using a very obscure procedural measure called the Congressional Review act, to allow Congress, which is a Republican majority in both chambers, to review that 20 year moratorium and essentially overturn it. That is what the resolution states. Overturn the 20 year moratorium. That moved incredibly fast.
- [13:22]
A
Yes.
- [13:23]
B
We're what, Tuesday here? It's less than two weeks ago that it was introduced, passed last week. So that now moves on to the Senate. The Senate has an opportunity here to stop that in its tracks. If this resolution were to pass the Senate, that goes to the President's desk. Right. And then we Move on to the next step, which, you know, has been indicated numerous times since last summer that those leases will be reinstated to Twin Metals. That's kind of like the big moment right now, you know.
- [13:59]
A
Yeah, yeah. So where. How do we know when the Senate is supposed to vote on this or like, how long we have to speak up or contact our representatives about this and make our voices heard?
- [14:11]
B
I mean, the time is now, right? Yeah, there. There's no better time than now and ensuring that we get it, get ahead of it and create as big of a stink as we possibly can. We don't know yet when the Senate is going to vote on this. I think, as we've seen across the country, there's a lot of other things going on at the moment. Yeah. Though, again, you know, it, it moved so fast through the House that, you know, we, we expect this to be becoming very soon. So being prepared for it, having a strong coalition behind it, which we have seen, and incredibly thankful for that. There's been so many folks, you know, from outdoor industry to NGO that have really stepped up right now. And, you know, you're sort of seeing that push that happened with Mike Lee's, you know, public land sales piece, which I think is incredible. And, you know, we just need to keep the foot on the gas man and flood the lines. You know, you said earlier, you know what, we need to touch on what we can do. And really what folks can do is just continue blowing up those offices and making phone calls, letting your senators know right now that this is not the place for this mine. And to vote no on that resolution when it does come up in the Senate is super important. Getting involved with an organization, signing an action alert, every piece counts. Taking a meeting with your local representative, if you can, every single thing you can do is super important. Social media, social media is huge, right? Share Post comment tag poll9 I mean, it's like all hands on deck at this moment.
- [15:47]
A
Yeah. And I still think the most powerful thing that people can do is call, right. And leave a message with their representative, their senator, and we'll put it in the show notes, like the number for the White House switchboard. It's super easy to call. When Mike Lee was trying to sell off, you know, 3 million acres, I think everyone was putting the phone number out there and it just showed how simple it was to, like, call and make your voice heard. And the biggest thing, yeah, I mean, the biggest thing there is. For every person that calls, they know there's another X number of people who are thinking the Same thing. And so it's, it. It might not feel like you're doing all that much because you're probably just going to get in touch with either a voicemail or an aide. But just being able to like call, make your voice heard, make. Does make a big difference as we've seen. Um, and, and like you said. Yeah. And like you said this moratorium was for. I mean, because who's to say that within 20 years there's a completely different technology where that is far safer or you know, something changes where you can do this in a way that does make sense. I mean, I don't know if that depending on where the, this location probably never really makes sense because of the possibility of pollution.
- [16:57]
B
Yeah, likely not.
- [16:59]
A
Right, but likely not. But you know, it's like I think the most important thing there was showing the fact that this was a way to take a step back and not be so short sighted and try to force something through before we have all the answers on this. And so this is, I mean, yeah, this is definitely something that needs to be shut down as fast as possible so we can have the time to figure out whether like you said, like it needs permanent protection, which would be the best thing. So we're not having to do this every couple years and, and figure out how to get this shut down.
- [17:32]
B
Yeah. I mean it, yeah, it's exhausting. But we all know what the, what the outcome is that we, that we want and that that is.
- [17:39]
A
Right.
- [17:40]
B
You know, and it's important to put, to put the issue fully on the, on the table too.
- [17:45]
A
Yeah.
- [17:46]
B
So people understand what is going on in the background.
- [17:50]
A
Yeah.
- [17:50]
B
You know, just, you know, just last week when we saw Representative Stauber testify in the House Rules Committee, I mean he, he essentially, you know, got called out and asked a couple questions and admitted to the fact that, you know this. Yes. This is a foreign mining company. Yes. You know, there is no guarantee that the minerals taken out through this, this mine will be processed and end up in the United States. Right. Since Anifagasta has a pen contract with, with smelters abroad in China.
- [18:28]
A
Right.
- [18:28]
B
You know, so once, once that, once that material is shipped overseas and processed, it hits the global market, there's no guarantee that it comes back here. So trying to tie it into domestic, you know, critical minerals dominance doesn't shake out whatsoever.
- [18:45]
A
Yeah.
- [18:45]
B
I mean, in fact, and to be honest, he got called out and he just smirked. Right. It's like he knows it, we know it.
- [18:53]
A
Yeah.
- [18:53]
B
It's not really a talking point on that end anymore.
- [18:56]
A
Yeah, this isn't like a us first, you know, type of situation.
- [19:00]
B
Yeah, yeah. So how do we move past that? Right, let's talk about what it does mean then for Minnesota and for the United States. And at this moment it's a proven fact that there's no guarantee that, that it actually helps the situation right now that they're touting.
- [19:17]
A
Right, Right. Oh, so what, what all is sportsman's for the boundary waters? Like what can people do to help your organization specifically in this fight? Like, I mean, I know you said social media and stuff, but like is there, is there a bigger way for people to get involved in all this stuff?
- [19:40]
B
Yeah, I mean like, like I said earlier, I mean I think it's, it's honestly as simple as, as getting more involved as you know, listening to these podcasts, as following the social media folks that are, that are doing the good work joining a conservation organization. So you're educated, reading up. You know, I think it's important to read up, you know, what both sides are saying on the issue, you know, for and against. Right. I mean get, get the information that you need and make the decision based on, you know, that information. Yeah, we're certainly not put, pushing anything out there that, that, that isn't, you know, standard and factual because you know, we pride ourselves on ensuring that we're giving the proper information. But again, call offices, get involved, sign action alerts, follow folks on, on, you know, social media. You know, there's great, there's, there's people doing really good work, you know, like backcountry hunters and anglers and you're seeing folks like, like meat eater get involved first light onx. I mean all the way to like, you know, Wilderness society, you know, outdoor alliance, conservation alliance. I mean like everybody is, is in this. You can be a part of that by, by ensuring that, that you are joining some of those organizations and staying educated on the issue. So then you know what to do and what actions to take when it's most important too.
- [21:03]
A
Yeah, it seems like this is really an industry wide fight on behalf of the boundary waters. I mean I, I had reached out to you about doing this podcast last week and, and then right after that I saw that field and Stream put out an article about the issue and the fact that it had gone through the house and like, you know, basically just stating everything that was going on. I think Travis hall wrote that piece.
- [21:23]
B
Travis, he's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, he's been, he's been covering this, you know, to the T for, for A long time now, and I'm very thankful for that.
- [21:33]
A
Yeah. Seems like he's always, like, on the ball when it comes to all this stuff. So I was glad that Field and Stream was in on at least educating people on what's going on to help spread that message. So, you know, I want to tell some, like, I want to hear some stories about the Boundary Waters, too, because, you know, it's easy to. You know, it's easy to just, like, get into this kind of, like, you almost feel like you're in a bit of a funk, right. You're in a rut where it's just like, you know, you're always trying to, like, preach to people. Like, you got to call your representatives. You got to, you know, do these things. You got to step up. You got to make your voice heard. But, like, I think it's important to also, like, you know, tell some stories about the places that we're trying to protect. So, I mean, you've been in this role. How long have you been in this role with sportsmans for the Boundary Waters?
- [22:18]
B
I am pushing a decade now.
- [22:20]
A
It'll be. I was.
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B
It'll be.
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A
I was going to say.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
I was gonna say. Because you and I talked early on when I had bought the school bus.
- [22:28]
B
Yeah.
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A
And was roaming around, talking about public land stuff. And I had originally planned on trying to get the bus up there and then go do a Boundary Waters trip, which still has never happened. Which is crazy.
- [22:38]
B
And we can still make that happen.
- [22:40]
A
No, for still make it. Still make it happen. But. But I was getting to think. I was like, man, like, that's coming up on almost 10 years ago that I bought the bus and did all that stuff. So. Yeah, I think I figured you'd been in that role for a long time. What. How many trips have you taken into the Boundary Waters, boy?
- [23:02]
B
Well, I started going when I was 12 with my dad and his friends on spring fishing opener trips for. For lake trout. And, like, behind me, like, that middle lake right there, that's like Tuscarora on the Gunflint, the east side. That's kind of like where I cut my cloth in the Boundary Waters. So, you know, my first experiences were going up there, you know, getting in, like, the day before opener, getting everything set up. You know, the anticipation of being able to put a line in the water at midnight if you wanted to. You know, just being used to going up there and, you know, dealing with the elements, understanding the elements. Just like, kind of growing. I really feel like I grew up in the outdoors, going, going to the Boundary Waters on those trips.
- [23:54]
A
Right.
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B
Like there, there was a, a couple years when I first started going where, I mean, it, it snowed the entire time, but an incredible experience and you know, a lot of folks, their first trip is going to be in the summer, you know, where you're not really, you're not really dealing or with, or understanding like, you know, the actual dangers of being out in that country like that too. Right. So I think it's a very educational experience too and makes you understand, you know, that you are not, you are not necessarily in control, but you need to understand how to be in it and safe for sure. But, but yeah, I think my dad waited to, to bring me until I was 12 just because of, you know, the group that it was and that, you know, it was a bunch, a bunch of guys, you know, having fun and, you know, allowing me to mature a little bit. But again, you know, I brought my girls for the first time when they were two. Right. So a different, a different situation. But I wanted to make sure they got introduced early.
- [25:01]
A
Yeah.
- [25:02]
B
But yeah, I mean, those, those opening lake trout trips are so awesome. So many cool stories of just, you know, three, four night trips where it's just hundreds, hundreds of lake trout. And it's just, it's such a cool experience. The camaraderie of being around a campfire, having those conversations, even if you're having to warm up and you're cold and wet and miserable, being out in a canoe and, and, and trolling Northern lights, I mean, the list goes on. It's just, I think, as we all know, the folks that do this and frequent the outdoors in situations like this is that there's really no other experience. Like, it doesn't have to be the Boundary Waters, it really can be anywhere else. But to truly understand how important the place is, you really need to experience it.
- [25:55]
A
Right.
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B
And I would encourage people, if you ever have the opportunity to, to take that trip, even if it's, you know, an overnight, something simple, something easy and, and using one of the phenomenal outfitters that, that, that help folks out. But yeah, I mean, I've. The amount of trips, I, I honestly don't know. It's been about 250 nights overnight, I think, over the course of the years. You know, I was.
- [26:29]
A
So you're sneaking up on a full year of these. Yeah. Live in the Boundary Waters.
- [26:35]
B
It is really like. It's funny that you mentioned this earlier. It's like the slog of it and doing this kind of work. Like, it almost pulls you back from it a little bit just because, you know, I don't go as much. I'm also a dad now with two little girls, so that pulls away too. But as the work started, I think the trip started kind of pushing down a little bit. Unless we're. We were, you know, taking folks for. For work, which we've done a couple times, which I think is, you know, incredible how. How best to. To write a great story on the area.
- [27:08]
A
Right.
- [27:08]
B
You know, actually get a group of people.
- [27:12]
A
Yeah, right.
- [27:13]
B
Right. So. So, yeah, I mean, I took those, those spring opener trips, you know, religiously, you know, until I was 17 or 18. And then it sort of flipped and a lot of my friends started getting interested. They were coming, you know, a few of them were coming, you know, earlier than that. And then we just sort of took over and started, you know, a big group of us started going a couple times a year too.
- [27:36]
A
Sure.
- [27:36]
B
And we weren't taking short trips. I know there, there was a number of years where we were going two weeks, I think the longest one we took, my buddy Keith and I, we stayed for 17. And I remember we were actually sitting on a campsite on Tuscarora and we had, we had run out of food and, and a number of other things. And we were sitting there, I think we were like 21 or 22, and we looked at each other and we were like, probably time to go. Right. And. And fortunately we had an employer that was okay with doing a do, letting us do that. And there was a storm rolling in and, you know, we decided to make the call. We could have stayed longer, but yeah, our, our traditional trips were.
- [28:22]
A
Were.
- [28:24]
B
A lot longer than, you know, that, that normal three, four day trip. And it really does take a few days to get acclimated and comfortable.
- [28:31]
A
Right.
- [28:32]
B
Especially, you know, sleeping on the ground, as everybody knows. You know, you, you, your, your body just becomes used to it and sort of. And sort of syncs up with everything going on in with nature and the time and everything. Right. So, um, it's just.
- [28:47]
A
Yeah, it. I was gonna say it always. It always takes a few days, like, especially if it's been a while since you've been in the backcountry or, you know, like kind of off the grid, like. But once you, like, mind kind of slows down, especially if you're in a spot where you don't have any service, so you're like, not, you know, pulling your phone out and checking your phone all the time. Yeah. If you can get to a space like that, it takes, you know, like, it does take a few days to like, meld into it, but, man, when you can get into that, like, flow state, that connection, like, to what you're doing, and like, it's amazing how little you really need to feel comfortable, to feel happy, to feel content out there doing it. Like, it's. It just. You kind of just become part of the landscape instead of like, working over it or through it or, you know, like, you're not. You're no longer trying to conquer it. You're just like, out there with it.
- [29:38]
B
Yeah, yeah. Naps on rocks, on a little cliff and in 20 island hour, you know, winds become. Become comfortable.
- [29:47]
A
Yeah.
- [29:48]
B
You're wearing the right stuff if you're wearing the right gear.
- [29:50]
A
Yeah. And I don't think there's anything better than a nap out in the wild, like, especially when it's like a little bit cold but the sun is out and you're just like, you can feel the warmth of the sun, like on, you know, whatever shoulder you're, you know, is pointing towards the sky and on the side of your face, and then you just out like a light. I. So, yeah, I mean, most of the best naps I've ever taken have been on the side of a mountain, you know, laying in some little. On some little shelf in the sun. Just cashed out after, you know, four or five days of hiking hard or whatever. So.
- [30:22]
B
Yeah, man.
- [30:23]
A
Yeah, but like you said, it's. It's something that people need to try. Yeah, it's something that people need to try to experience, you know. And again, like, I've never been there, which is silly. It's stupid for me not to have made the trip yet. And it's going to happen. I've got a year and a half old now, but I'll. I'll probably try to sneak away, you know, hopefully. Hopefully even this, you know, spring or summer and get out there for a few days just to. To go experience it. Because, you know, as a photographer, like, you look at the imagery that people come back with and people that are just like, simply going on like a fun trip. Like, it's the amount of good photography from bad photographers. Yeah.
- [31:02]
B
Like I say, it's this old bad picture. I don't. I don't think there's a bad picture. Yeah.
- [31:06]
A
You know, especially certain times of the year when, you know, the colors are changing and stuff. I mean, obviously that's in the fall and spring, but, like, just the amount of diversity in, like, the, the foliage and stuff and just like the rocks and the whole thing, all of it. Like I've.
- [31:22]
B
You.
- [31:23]
A
You just Google like boundary water images and you just like, want to go spend time there. Yeah, it's a pretty cool spot.
- [31:31]
B
Fall. Fall is an amazing, amazing time in the boundary waters. And you know, for, for us as hunters and anglers, it. It provides a really unique opportunity too. I mean, the fishing is great, you know, in, in. In late September into October and, and you can also, you know, hunt for rough grouse. I mean, it. Folks do take really cool backcountry trips for like, you know, black bear and, and whitetail too. But yeah, you know, I, I've. I've done a number of. Of those cast and blast trips especially for like towards the end of September for lake trout. The water gets colder again, so like the lake trout are coming shallower. Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty cool when you can spend a day fishing and then, you know, take. Take a walk in, in the deep woods of northeast Minnesota and, and bag a couple grouse and come back for dinner for, with everybody. So.
- [32:25]
A
Yeah. Cause I know. I mean, I think if you're going to do a cast and blast, I think rough grouse is the way to go because I've heard that like, you know, people that go up and try to whitetail hunt, like, it's not a, a dense population of whitetails up there, right? Yeah.
- [32:37]
C
Yeah.
- [32:38]
A
I mean, it seems like a cool hunt, right?
- [32:40]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. I. It's certainly not dense. And I mean there's, you know, people have their opinions on the reasoning for that as well, but it, yeah, it's, it's. It's truly an incredible opportunity for, for that type of hunt, especially with, you know, with canoeing as well and, and you know, your own, your own personal power to, to make that happen.
- [33:01]
A
Yeah. And I was gonna ask you, you've done a bunch of foraging stuff up there too, right? Yeah. Kind of up your alley. I feel like I remember. Didn't Sick Manta do a little project on you film of stuff you're doing up there?
- [33:14]
B
Yeah, yeah, I did hook up with, with Kyle and Donnie. Yeah, that was a while ago now. Yeah. Yeah, five, six, seven years ago. And we actually, we actually filmed that up by my buddy's cabin where his land is near Crosby. So.
- [33:33]
A
Okay.
- [33:34]
B
Kind of an example of. Of a mining town turned.
- [33:38]
A
Yeah.
- [33:38]
B
You know, incredible outdoor recreation area in the Kayuna area for sure.
- [33:42]
A
Yeah.
- [33:43]
B
But really, really cool space. And yeah, we. We spent today kind of doing some foraging specifically for. For mushrooms. I think it was like mid October, so we're right at the end. But yeah, but yeah, I mean, that's. That's a whole nother piece. Right. I mean, if. If. If you're at least, you know, slightly savvy or have a good book, you know, that shows, like, you know, the. The top things you can forage. It's a. It's a great opportunity throughout the summer, into fall as well.
- [34:06]
A
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Another thing I wanted to touch on, too, is so this, you know, the way they went about, like, getting this through the House. Right. So this. This using kind of an obscure rule to, like, put this vote through. This is. This goes beyond just protection of the boundary waters. Right. This. This has implications for other public lands. So can you touch on that a little bit?
- [34:31]
B
Yeah. So the Congressional Review act has only traditionally been used for federal rules.
- [34:39]
A
Right.
- [34:40]
B
To review a federal rule, like a land management rule, for instance, you know, a public land order, mineral withdrawal. You know, there's. There's a few different names for it. That's a federal action. It is. That is. Is a situation that is unprecedented because it has not been used in that fashion. And it is very easy, especially in this situation, to overturn something with a simple majority. Right. You know, in the Senate now, you know, with, you know, traditional, you know, legislation needing a 60 vote count in order to pass. So a simple majority with The Senate being 53 to 47 right now could. Could pass this. And, you know, the unfortunate aspect of that is that using that cra. The Congressional Review act also ensures, if it's passed, that a future administration cannot take the same action for the area.
- [35:34]
A
Gotcha.
- [35:35]
B
And this sets a precedent, if it is successful, for Congress to target other public land orders across the country. So this isn't a singular issue. This isn't just Minnesota. This is about protections across the country that have existed for a while or were just implemented recently.
- [35:54]
A
Yeah. So if you're, you know, for anybody listening to this, if you're like, well, I, you know, I don't know anything about the boundary waters, I'll probably never go visit. This has much larger implications than just this 1.1 million acres, you know, of beautiful wilderness in Minnesota. You know, like Lucas said, like, if this sets precedent, it just. It makes it a lot easier for protections to be stripped for public lands across the country. Yeah, it's.
- [36:22]
B
It's a procedural loophole at this point. Right. And technically, the Senate parliamentarian is supposed to rule on whether or not Using this path forward is lawful. Sure.
- [36:36]
A
We're.
- [36:36]
B
We're unsure whether or not. And there's been a. There has been an example where the Senate has bucked the parliamentarian and still moved forward.
- [36:43]
A
Right.
- [36:43]
B
So it's. It's possible that, you know, they say, well, too bad. We're going to do this anyways. And that's a big problem. That's a big problem for public lands. That's a big problem for the places we care about across the country, our cherished landscapes and places that we recreate in that we hunt, fish, camp, hike, bring our kids to. That we want them to be able to experience and for future generations. Right. I mean, we're talking about the potential for, you know, millions of acres of protections across the country to be overturned using this simple procedural tool that only needs a simple majority in the chambers at this point, which is, you know, incredibly concerning. I mean, to put it political. But, I mean, it's a terrible move and it's very bad for everybody.
- [37:38]
A
Yeah. So if you're on, you know, if you were listening to this, you're on the fence about, like, well, you know, I could call, but maybe I'll save my, you know, voicemail for something that I deem, you know, bigger in my own head or something that's more local to me. I think people need to understand that this, even though it's not happening, maybe in your state or even something that you even ever plan to go visit, like, this is something that is going to affect all of us if we don't end up on the right side of this. Uh, so that's. That should be enough motivation for people to speak up and, and understand, you know, how big this issue really is right now.
- [38:11]
B
And it's such an easy step to take. I mean, I, I get it. I mean, it, it. There can be some nerves, you know, calling a, you know, calling a congressional office, but, you know, once you're connected, it's very easy using that switchboard, the congressional switchboard. Super easy. You'll. You'll talk to an operator, you'll tell them, you know, your. Your zip code, your district, whatever it is, they will connect you immediately with that office. And all you have to do is tell them to vote no on this and tell them why. And we've been talking about this, you know, through this entire podcast. Everybody, you know, that's putting stuff on social media, on the websites, you know, gives. Gives clear directive on, you know, what those talking points are, what can be said, what can. Why this is important for The Senate to vote no on this. So making that call, you know, we gotta keep hammering that. Make that call. Flood the lines, flood the switchboard. Make sure that these folks that make these decisions that are supposed to be working for us, make these decisions based on the public opinion.
- [39:18]
A
Yep, absolutely. And you know, for anybody who's nervous about making a phone call, there's a very, very small percentage chance that you're actually gonna talk your representative, like most of the time you're going to get their aid or you're going to get a voicemail.
- [39:31]
B
Yeah.
- [39:32]
A
And so, you know, don't figure out if you do actually.
- [39:34]
B
Yeah, they're taking notes. I mean, they're marketing, you know, they're. They're letting this many people call today to say, you know, hell no to this. This many people called and support.
- [39:43]
A
Right.
- [39:44]
B
Like they are taking notes. And those, those representatives, those senators, they are listening to that for sure.
- [39:50]
A
Yeah, yeah, definitely. You know, another thing too is, you know, go, if you want to help out and you're listening to this, you know, go make a donation to Sportsman's for the Boundary Waters. Because, you know, when Lucas makes a phone call, he can say, I'm calling on behalf of this many people who have spoke up through our organization, you know, or join backcountry hunters in anglers or join one of the other organizations that's speaking up about this. Because even though you might be making a phone call on behalf of yourself, when the leaders of these organizations call or go and testify or know, speak up, they can say, I'm here on behalf of 200,000 members of this organization or 75,000 members of this organization. So the more we're, the more involved we are in conservation groups in general, the more voice we have collectively. Like when just a few people who have a little bit more access, you know, to lobbies and, and aides and senators and representatives, you can make a bigger splash just by simply going out and getting involved that way as well.
- [40:48]
B
Yeah. And that's absolutely how we, how we get folks, you know, to D.C. this, this is, this is a collective effort. And, and yeah, I mean, donating does help. You know, I always like to say we're a, we're a small but mighty organization, you know.
- [41:03]
A
Cause you guys are not a membership based organization.
- [41:06]
B
Right.
- [41:06]
A
It's just. Just donations.
- [41:07]
B
Correct? Correct.
- [41:08]
A
Yep.
- [41:09]
B
Correct.
- [41:09]
A
Yep.
- [41:09]
B
Yeah, perhaps we'll get there someday. But we're not a membership organization. But, you know, we, we really are, you know, a part of that top line, you know, that, that spear, you know, the spirit, I would say that, that that is helping organize this community around, around this issue. So we, we are the ones that are, that are work, working with those hook and bullet folks to get them involved, which is super important right now. Hunters and anglers speaking up is, is the most important, the most important voice at this moment. Especially with those Republican offices, they listened more. But it is also important to work collectively with the environmental community at this point too. Right? Absolutely. This should not be a political issue. This should not be Democrat or Republican. This shouldn't be how you recreate. We should be working on this together for the collective good. I've liked to say let's dust the book off of working together and reread a little bit and figure out how we can do this and ensure that we're doing this collectively to make this happen. Because that is important. Personal differences and opinions need to be set aside, especially, you know, on the political spectrum to make this happen.
- [42:25]
A
Yeah, I mean, when it comes to something like the Boundary Waters, it goes so far beyond just hunting and fishing. You know, selfishly, you know, a lot of us who, you know, hunt or fish, we want to protect things, you know, in wild places because we like to go shoot rough grouse or we go like the white hunt whitetail deer or elk or you know, go fish for lake trout. Like we like to protect the resource because we like to go out and, and consume, you know, things off of the landscape. But it goes so far beyond that. I mean, it's clean air and water, it's, it's erosion, it's everything that these waters protect, like for the entire country that we're fighting for. This is, this goes so far beyond.
- [43:03]
B
Hunting and fishing that I like noise pollution, you know.
- [43:07]
A
Right.
- [43:09]
B
Wetland protection. Right. I mean like the foot, the footprint of this potential project is enormous. Thousands of acres. Right, right on, right on the shoreline of, of, of a lake that is, you know, directly flowing into the Boundary Waters through the Kawashi River. So yeah, it's this, it's mind boggling and it's important, you know, for folks to understand that proximity to, to what we're talking about too.
- [43:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, I think, I mean this is a little, you know, 45 minutes is great. I just wanted to make sure that everybody had the information about what's going on. Maybe just, yeah, maybe just reiterate one more time like where people can follow you guys and what you're up to and then maybe, you know, if you want to plug any other organizations that people should follow along, go for it. But I just, I really wanted to get this out because it's so timely right now.
- [44:08]
B
Yeah, I appreciate that. Sure. So, yeah, I mean, for folks to get involved, you know, in, in this incredibly timely issue again. So this is HJ140. It's a house resolution that was just passed last week that, that aims to overturn the 20 year mineral withdrawal or the public land order that we've been talking about. It's moving now to the Senate. That could happen at any moment. So it is incredibly important that folks get on those phones, call their congressperson through the congressional switchboard. Visit sportsmanbwca.org if you'd like to support us. We also have an action alert that sends messages directly to your senator with, with something that we've typed up that you can adjust if you'd like to put your own personal, personal touch on it, ensuring that you're, you know, following folks on social media. There's a bunch of great organizations that are involved in this like backcountry hunters and anglers like Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership. The list goes on. You know, we have a great partnership in Save the Boundary Waters who is doing the work on, you know, across the board in the environmental community as well, you know, as we all need to come together on this. So make those phone calls, you know, support your local organization, join an organization, send a message, do whatever you can. Follow us on social media to stay updated. We just, you know, we're super, super appreciative of, of the support, you know, of, of you and Field and Stream and of those folks that are heavily involved in this issue right now because it is, it is an important one. And as we said, it has, it has implications to affect, you know, protections across the country.
- [46:00]
A
And I'm going to just say the White House switchboard Phone number is 202-456-1414. This is the main line available for general inquiries. And it'll get you connected and you can have them basically tell, like you said earlier, you can give them your zip code or which representative or senator do you want to talk to or leave a message for and it'll get you connected. So, Lucas, thanks so much for hopping on today and explaining kind of like boundary waters in general and then just what this mine would mean for that area. But then above and beyond that, the implications this has for public lands across the board. So just can't thank you enough for taking the time to talk about all this stuff while you're in the middle of the fight.
- [46:40]
B
Yeah, and I'd take the time, you know, any day. I just. I. I really appreciate you reaching out and giving me the opportunity to spread the word on this because it is so important. So, again, honor and a pleasure. Appreciate it.
- [46:54]
A
Yep. Absolutely. Well, we'll catch up again soon, but thanks again, and have a good rest of the year. We'll see if we can get this killed.
- [47:02]
B
Yeah, we got to get you up there. So we'll. We'll connect later and. And put that trip together that we need to do.
- [47:08]
A
All right, that sounds good.
- [47:09]
B
All right, thanks.