Episode 18 - Bird Dogs and the Obsession That Never Ends

Summary

Legends of the Wild, Episode 18 – Bird Dogs and the Obsession That Never Ends

Podcast: Legends of the Wild, A Field & Stream Production
Host: Sam Soholt
Guests: Tyler Webster (Western Wing Shooter Podcast, The Flush TV) & Wes Larrabee (Prairie Tales Podcast)
Date: February 25, 2026

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Overview

In this engaging and insightful episode, Sam Soholt sits down with passionate upland hunters and bird dog enthusiasts Tyler Webster and Wes Larrabee, just after the famed “Pheasant Fest.” They explore their lifelong obsession with bird dogs and upland hunting, the cultural and conservation importance of events like Pheasant Fest, hunting ethics, the unpredictability of bird populations, and the unique connection between dogs and their people in the field. Rich with personal anecdotes, practical advice, and some truly memorable moments, this episode is a celebration of the upland lifestyle and the enduring obsession that comes with it.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet the Guests & Their Backgrounds

[01:15 – 05:53]

• Tyler Webster introduces himself as host of the Western Wing Shooter Podcast and co-host of The Flush TV show. He hunts nearly 140 days a year across the country with his bird dogs, based in North Dakota.
  • “From the time I…was 8 years old, what I wanted to do, and I told her I wanted to be a professional upland hunter at eight.” (Tyler, 03:42)
• Wes Larrabee shares his journey from coyote hunting with his dog-loving family, big game hounds, to falling in love with bird hunting and his transition toward retrievers as he moved to North Dakota.
• Both have built lifestyles centered around dogs, public lands, and the pursuit of birds across diverse landscapes.

2. Why These Guys Became Bird Dog Obsessives

[07:05 – 13:51]

• Tyler tells the vivid story of his first upland hunt as a boy, witnessing a Brittany pointing and retrieving a pheasant.
  • “Working with bird dogs and to achieve a common goal…is the coolest thing on the planet. Like, watching those dogs go out there searching, literally, they will run themselves to death if you let them looking for a bird…It does not get purer than that for me.” (Tyler, 10:58)
• Wes reflects on growing up among working dogs—greyhounds and hounds, then setters and labs—as an integral part of the family and hunting life.
• Discussion on how hunting with dogs creates an irreplaceable bond and a different kind of outdoor experience, especially as families grow.
• Talk about the benefits of bird hunting for introducing kids (and new adults) to hunting—social, lively, and “bluegill fishing with a bobber” for the whole family.

3. Bird Dogs, Labs, & Future Plans

[15:00 – 17:36]

• The group talks about the merits of various bird dogs: pointers, setters, and the growing love for Labs as all-rounders for upland and waterfowl.
  • “The best thing about a lab is they do both.” (Wes, 17:08)
• Sam is tempted to make 2027 “the year of the dog” and revive the bird dog tradition in his own family.

4. Inside Pheasant Fest: Upland’s Mardi Gras

[17:35 – 23:22]

• Deep dive into what makes Pheasant Fest so special—described as “upland Mardi Gras,” attended by nearly 29,000 people.
  • “It’s upland Mardi Gras is what it is…never not something to do.” (Tyler, 18:45, 20:26)
• Events include conservation talks, dog parades, women’s events, seminars, national banquets, and the “Concert for Conservation.”
• Importance of the event as a gathering place for conservation, dog culture, and the broader upland hunting network.
• Numerous organizations in attendance, including Backcountry Hunters & Anglers and major conservation voices.

5. The Offseason, Conservation, and Monitoring Bird Populations

[24:24 – 36:07]

• Despite the “offseason,” Tyler describes the endless preparation, monitoring, and dog conditioning that goes on—running dogs on wild birds, staying in tune with micro-habitat weather patterns, and reading bird population reports.
• Lamentation on how weather and habitat drive bird numbers—bad storms or cold snaps can cut populations by more than half.
  • “If one chick lives, they’re done. There’s no more renest.” (Tyler, 27:25)
• Discussion on game agency roadside and lek surveys, and the potential for emerging technologies like thermal drones to improve population tracking.

6. Ethics, Trigger Control & Managing for the Future

[38:49 – 46:05]

• The guests discuss the responsibility hunters have—not just in filling limits, but in keeping coveys and populations healthy, especially in down years.
  • “...Populations drive hunter numbers. Hunter numbers do not drive populations.” (Wes quoting Wade Zerlingo, 38:49)
• Advocating catch-and-release mentalities, passing up small coveys, and “trigger control” to ensure quality hunting remains for future years.
  • “Shouldn’t we all be that way?” (Wes, 40:55)

7. The Joys Beyond the Harvest & Focusing on the Experience

[47:24 – 54:54]

• Reframing expectations: The value is in the journey, friendships, and field experience, not just the kills.
  • “At the end of the day, we do not hunt upland birds because that’s all we’re eating. One of the most calorie negative activities in the outdoor space.” (Tyler, 44:11)
• Comparing failing to “catch-and-release hunting.”
• Cherishing small, magical experiences: Sam tells of watching a migration of leopard frogs during a deer hunt; Tyler recalls sliding into a flock of turkeys only to meet a bobcat instead.

8. Memorable Wild Encounters

[56:03 – 64:10]

• Lion and bobcat stories from the Southwest: harrowing, humorous, and awe-inspiring close calls that underline why time in the wild is so addictive.
  • “My body is sensing danger and I can’t figure out why.” (Sam on locking eyes with a mountain lion, 58:15)
• The lesson: the best moments in the outdoors are often the unscripted ones.

9. Advice for Newcomers & Final Thoughts

[64:50 – 68:33]

• Tyler: “Just do it. 100%…it’s going to take you to some unbelievably cool places, and you’re going to get those moments with your dog, with your kids, with your friends that you’ll talk about for years…It’s really not about limits.”
• Wes: “It’s okay to fail…Stop being afraid…No matter what it is…go do it. You ain’t getting any older.”
• Both stress the affordability and accessibility of upland hunting versus big game. The learning curve isn't steep, and the rewards are rich.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tyler on his boyhood bird dog awakening:
  “That dog just turned to stone. I was like, well, that’s about the coolest thing I’ve ever seen. …That was the shot in the arm that was like, okay, this is what I want to do.” (10:04)

• On the toll of passion:
  “You come sliding into the end of season…I mean you’re just wrecked—physically, mentally, emotionally, you’re just shot.” (07:15)

• On conservation gatherings:
  “It’s upland Mardi Gras is what it is.” (18:45)

• On modern “catch-and-release” ethics:
  “It’s basically catch and release hunting. Your dog has done everything correct up to that point. …The only thing you’re missing is the bang.” (44:53)

• On the unpredictability and awe of wildlife:
  “My body is sensing danger, and I can’t figure out why.” (58:15)

• On getting started in upland hunting:
  “Stop being afraid…No matter what it is…go do it. You ain’t getting any older.” (66:31)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:15] – Podcast intro, guest intros, background and road trip tales
• [07:59] – The physical and mental toll of a long hunting season
• [09:17] – The moment the upland obsession began (Tyler’s first bird dog story)
• [13:51] – Dog breeds, family, and passing on tradition
• [17:35] – Pheasant Fest: what it is and why it matters
• [24:24] – Offseason routines, bird population monitoring, and planning
• [38:49] – Conservation, population ethics, and trigger control
• [44:53] – Catch-and-release hunting and savoring memories over limits
• [56:03] – Harrowing encounters with big cats in the wild
• [64:50] – Advice for newcomers and final reflections

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Tone & Style

• The conversation is candid, story-driven, and authentic—both educational and humorous, filled with the easy camaraderie of road trip buddies, and palpable love for the outdoors and the animals (and dogs!) that define their lives.

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For More:

• Listen to Tyler on The Western Wing Shooter Podcast and The Flush TV
• Listen to Wes on Prairie Tales Podcast
• Follow them on Instagram: @westernwingshooter and @prairietalespodcast

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This summary provides a comprehensive recap of Legends of the Wild, Episode 18, capturing the practical insights, gripping stories, and enduring wisdom that make upland hunting—and bird dogs—such an enduring passion.

Transcript

[A]

Ugh.

[B]

You said you were over him, but

[C]

his hoodie's still in your rotation. It's time.

[B]

Grab your phone, snap a few pics, and sell it on Depop. Listed in minutes with no selling fees. And just like that, a guy 500 miles away just paid full price for your closure.

[C]

And right on cue. Hey. Still got my hoodie? Nope.

[B]

But I've got tonight's dinner paid for.

[C]

Start selling on depop, where taste recognizes taste list.

[A]

Now, with no selling fees, payment processing

[C]

fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details. This is Legends of the Wild presented by Field and Stream. Let's get into it. We are recording. We are recording, recording, recording. Holy recording buckets.

[A]

There's some more technology right here. And I got a coffee on the table. I'm terrified to move it.

[B]

And you want to put this in our studio, Right?

[A]

No kidding.

[C]

I'm gonna flip this around before I just make sure you're still in focus here. I was gonna put it in autofocus, but it terrifies me so.

[A]

Control freak. Yeah, a little bit.

[C]

All right, everybody. Well, that's too loud for me. Testing, test. I'm on three. Hello, everybody. That's better. Welcome to another episode of Legends of the Wild. This is going to be a fun one. Today I am joined by Tyler Webster and his good buddy, Wes Larrabee. Wes Larrabee, we are right on the. We're recording this right after Pheasant Fest.

[A]

Literally.

[C]

Literally. These guys are driving home from Pheasant Fest, but I wanted to do an upland episode and talk all things upland. Upland dogs. And what a better time to do that.

[A]

Dead of winter.

[C]

The dead of winter. But right after a giant event raising money for the upland bird and conservation.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's. I think it's a good time to do this dead of winter because you get to start to think about spring thoughts. Summer thought.

[A]

My brain never stops thinking about it, you know, and.

[C]

And you can't even say dead of winter. I mean, you just came off like a, you know, six week road trip chasing upland birds all over the place, so.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. So why don't you, Tyler, why don't you tell everybody kind of what you do, what you've been up to, and then I'll take it back from there.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

My name's Tyler Webster. I'm the host of the Western Wing Shooter podcast. And I also, starting this fall, I'm also co host of the Flush television show.

[C]

Sweet.

[A]

So I spend roughly 140 or so days every season chasing birds all across the country with my dogs. But I'm a North Dakota resident. I live here, love it here. And this is where I spend probably 3/4 or so of my season from early September all the way until it gets really cold in winter with winter winters, at which point me and the dog start packing up, and we start our trip west and south. And so I'm on the road a lot. December, January, and sometimes even into February.

[C]

Yeah. Which is sweet because it makes winter

[A]

a lot shorter, buddy. It really does.

[C]

Yeah. For sure. I mean, the. The fact that you can get out and just, like, kind of. I mean, it's different than chasing the migration. Right. But as you go south, seasons are open later and later. And, you know, the first time that we met was actually we had to go down near the Mexican border.

[A]

On the border. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

And so it's. It's cool that you get to do that, that you've shaped your whole kind of lifestyle around that and that pursuit.

[A]

Well, I'll tell you, my guidance counselors in school and my. I'm tax professional. Not. Not necessarily thrilled about my life choices sometimes, but from the time I. My aunt, who lives down in southern Arizona, which is why I started hunting down there as well, she asked me When I was 8 years old what I wanted to do, and I told her I wanted to be a professional upland hunter at eight.

[C]

So you knew.

[A]

And so, like, I never let a job get in the way of opening day. I would literally just quit a job and go hunt. Opening day for pheasants. So, like, if you just have, like, a focus and just. That is my path. This is what ends up happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Which, I mean, which is a testament to, like, the fact that you can really do whatever you want if you figure it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And there's always a way to, like, navigate that. I mean, I did that for a long time. You know, living in a school bus. It's like there's no backup plan. No, you just be like, this is what I do. This is what I want to do, and then you work it out from there. It's not like, oh, I can fall back on this or that. You know, it's just like, no, I'm just like, full speed ahead.

[A]

Yeah. There's no brakes on the car. Like, this is the way we're going. We're on a rail and all these other exits and stuff. You just keep on blowing past those and just keep on going down the road.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, Wes, how do you fit into this whole mix?

[B]

I am the co host on the Prairie Tales podcast, was it? That was last year, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He's good at that.

[B]

Well, it was my plan all along. I was gonna do a certain amount of time working for a coal company in Wyoming, and I'd been there, I. A long, long time.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Over 18 years. So.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But I've been chasing Tyler around every winter since 2016.

[A]

17, 18. Somewhere.

[B]

Somewhere around there.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So we'd go on these two, three week long trips. I'd come to north. I'd been coming to North Dakota since 2013 with my bird dogs, just camping out of the back of my pickup, wherever I could lay my head that night, another spot the next day to hunt. So that's what I do now.

[C]

Sweet.

[A]

That's full time.

[C]

That's not bad.

[B]

Not bad at all.

[C]

I can't.

[B]

I can't complain. It gets a little boring, though, when he takes off for a long trip and I don't go this year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was a little bored around home. Had to take up ice fishing.

[C]

Poor guy.

[B]

You know, when you're deathly afraid of the ice, it's not a fun experience.

[C]

You know, I don't do a ton of ice fishing where I live. I really should get into it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But with how busy, like, especially fall and spring are. Yeah. The winter, like, it comes down to it, I'm like, I don't need, like. Because I know if I got into it, I would go all in, you know, and I would spend a ton of money on it, and I would have an ice castle and the whole thing and do it, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, they don't give.

[B]

Outdoorsman.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Jack of all, Master of none.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. But I. I don't. Because it's time for me to, like, slow down 100%, be at home, you know, maybe go to a trade show or two. But it's. It's a way for me to, like, okay, like, regroup, you know, go through all of the networking, connection stuff that I neglected during all of fall seasons.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And then be like, hey, I'm still alive. Remember me? Here's all the deliverables I didn't forget about.

[A]

Yeah. You know, every year I get back, end of January 1st part of February, and somebody will always. They'll never ask me how anything was or say, when do you leave again?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, no, no, no. This one's. I'm back for a bit now because, like, you come sliding into the end of season. I mean, you're just wrecked physically, mentally, emotionally. You're just shot. Yeah, to the point. This year, on my very last hunt of the year, I was in Kansas and I let my old dog Rusty out, my other older setter, C.J. out, and we're out walking and C.J. rips a beautiful covey on or a point on a covey of bob whites. Rusty comes in and backs. I step in. The birds went up right in front of me. I forgot to load my gun. Never was. That was the last point of the 2025 season for me. No shots fired, no parts, no birds hung.

[C]

Perfect way to end it, honestly.

[A]

Yeah, right. Like, I just put my head down. I was like, God, it has been a long season.

[C]

Yeah, we were, you know, I host. Co host the Roost podcast. We're in the thick of that now, talking all things turkey. And I recorded an episode this morning, but Ben and I were just down at National Wild Turkey Federation show in Nashville and we were laughing about. And I hadn't even looked, but we had like, photos of us from the beginning of the season, you know, and like, we're all spry, feeling good about life. And then there's pictures of us at the very end of May together, turkey hunting. And. And he was like, dude, we look awful. Like, we look so strung out. And then I went and looked at the photos, like, oh, boy.

[A]

Like, we're going to need to run these through some AI to clean these

[B]

things up, filter them up a little bit and.

[C]

And you know, it just goes to show, it doesn't matter what like, your like, really passionate pursuit is. Like, when you really go that hard, man, does it just, like, destroy you in. In the best way?

[A]

Oh, 100%. I mean, like, like I said, I think it was 142 days I hunted this year. Something like that. And that's from Sept. And that's just the upland season. I'm not. We. We. We Turkey hu spring. But from September 1st until the end of January, I think I took off like five days. Yeah, like, all the days that were possible to go out hunting, we went out hunting.

[C]

So what is it about upland hunting, like, from that early of an age, what is it about that pursuit that, like, got into your blood?

[A]

Why, like, I watched a Brittany rip a point on a wounded rooster out in a. In a stubble field. First rooster I ever shot in my life. I was heartbroken because we're back when we were young, we didn't have them pheasants like up in Minot where I'm from. Yeah, right. You had to travel a ways.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And so we went over to Williston. My uncle over there was the president of the Senex, knew all the landowners. Really nice guy to know, you know, for sure. So. And he had this little Brittany, and we hunting the straw. It's me and my grandpa and my uncle and my cousin. And. And we're walking. This rooster gets up, and I knocked it down. I caught, like, that last two inches of the wing. And it did build.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And I'm running up there eight, super excited. I can. I could. If I had any artistic ability at all, I could draw you a picture of it. I could. Like, I remember the way it smelled, everything. And we get all the way to the end of the draw, and we're never found. All of a sudden, that little Brittany starts nose down on the ground, tracking out into the wheat stubble field at the end of this draw. And that dog just turned to stone. And I was like, well, that's about the coolest thing I've ever seen. And then all of a sudden, that rooster tried to jump up in the air and did the one wing flight. And that dog caught it out of the air and ran back with that bird in its mouth. And that was the shot in the arm that was like, okay, this is what I want to do, like, working with bird dogs and to achieve, like, a common goal and desire that I have and that they have is one of the coolest things on the planet. Like, watching those dogs go out there searching, literally, they will run themselves to death if you let them looking for a bird. And then all of a sudden, they will just rip a point that tail straight up in the air. You walk up, they're doing the little tasting with their mouth. Like they're trying. Like, they. They already know. They. They could tell you exactly where it was. And bird goes up, shoot the bird dog goes, grabs it, brings it back. It does not get pure than that for me.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Wes, did you have a moment like that that, like.

[B]

Well, mine's a little different than Tyler's. I grew up in a family of dog guys.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

You know, my grandfather had hounds. My father was a greyhound. We were coyote hunters. We. Yeah, we got our dogs off the track. We trained them. I don't know. We. I think at one point, when I was younger with puppies, I think we had 40, somehow, you know, greyhounds. When I got out of high school and out of the military, when I was old enough to have my own dogs and living my own life, I got into big Game hounds pretty bad.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Ran all over the place chasing lions, bears, whatever my dogs could chase.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Moved to town. You can't have 13 hounds in the backyard and not be in trouble with animal control every day. So went through the process of finding, you know, people that would hunt my dog because I bred my dogs from the first two I got, trained them, knew they were going to be good following bloodlines just like we do now when we're looking for a good puppy.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Let's see, that would have been in 2001, somewhere around there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then got rid of my dog. My hounds lived, I think, four months without a dog.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Got my first setter. I had already had a springer spaniel before that.

[A]

That.

[B]

I love that dog. I mean, we killed a lot of pheasants. We're typically in south West. South Dakota where there is no pheasants, but we found a lot of pheasants. Was offered $10,000 by two firemen out of Denver for that dog. And I said no because he sat at the kitchen table with me every day and drank coffee and.

[C]

Family member.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He ate his evening meal at the table while I did in the chair beside me. That's how. I mean, so, you know, I'm a dog guy through. And now I'm. I don't know what we want to call it. Going into the retriever world. A little bit from the pointing dog world. From having three pointing dogs now I'm. Since I've moved here and the. Knowing I was going to move here to North Dakota, I wanted to get a lab because I love to duck and goose hunt too. And when you have that upland bird waterfowl bug like I do, it's a. It can be a bad thing because you don't know what to do every day.

[A]

Right. Yeah. You could end up actually kind of getting a paralysis by analysis some days where it's like, man, what do we want to do today? I want to go. I want to go walleye fishing. I want to. Like, we have this embarrassment of riches here. You know what I mean?

[C]

Yeah. And I, you know, I didn't really understand it before. So, like, growing up, my dad. My dad grew up an archery hunter and a deer hunter. He grew up in Wisconsin, started archery hunting, and then when we were all born right. He basically quit archery hunting and then started. Started upland hunting, started duck hunting. And. And then we had. He had. We had two English setters. And then when we got into duck hunting, we started to. We got a couple yellow labs and And I didn't really understand, you know, he always said he's like, oh, with kids it's so much better to bird hunt. You know, it's just.

[A]

It's bluegill fishing with a bobber. Right.

[C]

More social. You get to have your kids right next to you in the duck boat or in the duck blind or whatever.

[A]

And there's dogs. Like, kids love dogs.

[C]

Right. And so, you know, but you didn't. You don't fully grasp that until you have. Until I had kids.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And so now I'm like, oh, man, I spend so much time big game hunting, you know, so much effort and focus on chasing whitetails with a bow.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And I'm like, maybe it might be time for me to get a bird dog finally and go back to. Because I grew up just bird hunting, mostly just duck hunting. That's all I focused on. And now I'm like, I've always wanted a big yellow lab named Moose. Like, it might be time to make that happen. Especially if we stay in North Dakota for a while. Because it's like you said, it's an embarrassment of riches in this state in neighboring states that we can easily get to. And so I'm kind of leaning into that. You know, I told my wife no

[B]

better time than the present. Yeah.

[C]

I told my wife this morning. I was like, my buddy Sam, who works for Field Stream and does a lot with the Field Stream pet food side of things. Now, I don't know if you guys have looked into that at all. I haven't watched to get you some samples.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Talk to the guys at NWTF who are helping manufacture all that stuff.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And they were like, you know, there was kind of just this. You had to sell something new for a long time. Right. So there was. As all things in sales, there's different marketing campaigns surrounding different foods. You know, I'm sure you guys, dogs really good food, but they kind of like went back to the old school, like whole foods, organ meat, like all the stuff that dogs need to perform really well. So let's get you something.

[A]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[C]

Just to see if you could like it and try it.

[B]

They sell it at Tractor supply.

[A]

Do they really?

[B]

I seen it in there last time I was in there.

[A]

I'll have to check that out.

[C]

Yeah. I actually think for right now it's exclusive. For the retail side, it's exclusively at Tractor Supply because they're doing like Field and Stream store within the store kind of thing.

[A]

Nice. Yeah. I mean, that's handy because we have one in Stanley. Which is about the only store we have.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So. But no, my wife. This morning, I was like, Sam had texted me, and he's like, you need a bird dog? And I was like, I probably do. And then I told that to my wife, and she's like, but you don't duck hunt that much anymore. And I was like, yeah, but I would.

[A]

I would.

[C]

I was like. If I had. If I had the dog. Because she's always wanted a second dog. And I told her. I was like, we're not getting a second dog until it's a bird.

[A]

You're the one pumping the brakes.

[C]

Yeah, well, we have a. We just have a family dog right now, and he's great, and. But he's not a hunting dog. And I was like, we're not getting a second dog until it's a hunting dog, and I'm not getting a hunting dog until I can dedicate.

[B]

The best thing about a lab is they do both.

[C]

True. Right.

[B]

I. I hunted the legs off my young lab. Well, last year, we did our trip to Nevada. Nevada. I shot a lemon chukars with my lab, and he wasn't. He was 11 months old.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

They'll do it.

[C]

Yeah. No, I mean, it's probably going to happen. Not this year it's not. It's not going to happen this year. Too much going on.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But maybe 20, 27 might be the year of the dog.

[A]

Yeah, that's it. That's it.

[C]

Yeah. So what. Talk. Let's talk about Pheasant Fest, because there's. I think there's a lot of people listening who probably have never even heard of that. And we missed the last two years, which is unfortunate. The one Kansas City was just too far by the time I put fuel in the bus and.

[A]

Fuel.

[C]

And Josh's truck to get all the merch there. Right. You know, it's a.

[A]

It's a. It's a business decision. Yeah. For.

[C]

And then we were fully planning on being in Minneapolis this year, and then my brother tore his Achilles, just like I did a year and a half ago.

[A]

I was giving out false information. I thought it was the acl, but. Yeah, I remember you telling me about.

[C]

Anyway.

[A]

Bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And so it was just not a good time to have Josh, like, standing at a screen printing Josh over there,

[A]

just ripping around on a Rascal at Pheasant Fest. Yeah, that would have been pretty funny.

[C]

Yeah. And like, even just, you know, printing a couple thousand shirts and hoodies to bring to the event to make sure we have enough stock to, you know, keep sizes in stock and stuff. It was like I went through that whole rehab process, like, I'm not gonna have him on his feet. It's a rough one.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So we opted out this year. But it looked like a great show.

[A]

It was.

[C]

Why don't you guys dive into, like, what Pheasant Fest is and why it's. Why it means so much to the upland world.

[A]

It's. I mean, it's. It's upland Mardi Gras is what it is. It's. You know, I haven't heard the numbers yet, but, I mean, I did a podcast with Bob St. Pierre from Pheasants Forever yesterday for his on the wing podcast. And I think they were thinking it was right around 28, 29,000 people came through the doors over the course of the weekend.

[C]

I saw it just before you guys walked in here. It was 28,860 or something like that.

[A]

So. Right. Right there where they were hoping to get, you know, and with pheasants, it rotates around a little bit. I think this is the seventh year I've gone to it. And they just keep on raising the bar year after year. So it's. It's their national banquet on Saturday night. Raises a bunch of money for the organization. They have the Concert for Conservation on Thursday night. They had Turnpike Troubadours there this year.

[C]

And I was trying really hard to, like, if we would have gone, I was trying really hard to get a podcast with those guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

For. For the Legends of the Wild, just to talk about everything they.

[A]

For sure.

[C]

You know, because they spent a lot of time in the woods.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Do a lot of country music stuff. Fits well with field and street.

[A]

It does, yeah. And, you know, and of course, it's the bird hunting national anthem. Is the Bird Hunters via Turnpike Troubadours. Right. And so when I was under strict orders last year, because I'd heard this was going to happen, and they're like, if you say one word. Because I have a tendency to maybe, you know, you know, Podcaster. Right. I have a tendency to let things slip out every once in a while. I'm not necessarily the most trustworthy person when it comes to closely held secrets. But, you know, it's. There's all kinds of seminars there, just like any of the other trade shows. But there's just it. They've done a really good job of making it a social event. You know, they have the Upland Ball. They have Women on the Wing event.

[C]

They have Dog Parade.

[A]

Dog parade. I was grand marshal the dog parade this year with Travis Frank and Scott Franzen, my co hosts on the flush. And so they've really done something pretty extraordinary. Yeah, you know, there's 20. Some 28,000, 29,000 people came, and there's never. Not something to do. There's professional dog trainers on the stage. There's conservation talks. You know, backcountry hunters, anglers had a big presence there. Cal was there a bunch on stage talking about the copper mine. That's, you know, the big thing there. In fact, they were flying to D.C. right after the show. They had a petition there that people were signing at the show.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like an all. It's not just pheasant hunting or bird hunting. It's this beautiful network of conservation organizations that have come together and, you know, with all the different challenges that have been coming up and recently with, you know, the public lands and all that kind of stuff, it was really cool to see BHA have a big presence there. But it's. It's. I mean, it's. It's one of my favorite things to do in the wintertime. Once bird season's done, we start looking forward to Pheasant Fest.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. We've had. Go ahead.

[B]

I was gonna say, they say it best. It's the world's largest gathering of upland bird hunters.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For three days.

[C]

Yeah. And if you've. If you're listening to this and you. You chase any sort of upland bird, honestly, like you do any sort of bird hunting at all, it is a very cool show to go experience, like.

[B]

Well, even this year, they had grouse camp. American woodcock had grouse camp there. They had. They had their own stage, they did their own talks. You know, right across. Basically the whole event is.

[C]

Was the.

[B]

Who was putting that one on with all the seat. Different seeds? What?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

There was so much.

[A]

Yeah, there was. There was way, way too much to

[B]

do for, like, three days.

[A]

You couldn't do it all.

[B]

If you went there and tried to do everything, you'd never get done.

[C]

I was. I was supposed to be on the grouse stage at Grouse Camp talking about photography and stuff. Yeah. Again, I just had to miss it. I was like, oh, man.

[A]

Like, it was fun.

[C]

I've been on stage at Pheasant Fest every time we've been there, whether it's talking about public lands, but the ones that I really loved was diving into all the photography side of things because there's. There's so many people because you're a

[A]

little bit of a nerd.

[C]

I am a nerd.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I am a full nerd when it comes to that stuff. But there's so, like, I've. I've seen it and the messages that come in asking me about photography. There's so many people that simply want to shoot better photos to bring memories home. It's not even like, hey, I want to shoot better photos so I can post it on social media.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that's what I really like doing is, like, helping people, whether they're shooting on their cell phone or they have a nice camera, regardless of what they're using. It's like, here's just a few tips and tricks to, like, come home and be able to look back, scroll through your phone, and be like, oh, for sure that I. I can smell that. Yeah, I can feel that experience.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah. So a very, very cool event. And I think the. Didn't the Concert for conservation raise, like, 100 grand?

[A]

100 and something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every year. I mean, last year it was Muscadine Bloodline, and the year before that it was trampled by turtles. And every year it's been, you know, 100,000 plus. It goes right back into the organization to do really cool work with.

[C]

Do you know who's doing it next year?

[A]

I've heard rumors. Not saying anything.

[C]

We'll talk about it after.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And then whenever they announce it, I'll just, like, put that in the podcast. Be like, hey, if anybody listened to Episode with Tyler and Wes, like, just know that, you know, here's the real announcement on it. So the doing it, like, how many. We got to talk about this, too. Like, after the show. It's like, we were talking about doing an episode of Flush together this year.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

We got to get that planned out. I would love to get out west and chasing birds.

[A]

We're going to do something.

[C]

Yeah, definitely. So what does now. Okay, season's over. What the. What do you guys do off season now in preparation for.

[A]

Sure. Well, I mean, and that's the crazy thing about when you spend that kind of time in the fall and you get done with Pheasant Fest, and now it's the time that I have to get some work done. Yeah, for a little bit. Right. But turkey season's not that far off. And, you know, we were on the drive up today, we seen turkeys, and that's my. That primal side of my brain was like, like, it's almost here. Right. And so, like. And again, the embarrassment of riches that we have In North Dakota, we have roughly two months of an off season, you know, so the snow geese, if the weather stays the way that it is, they're going to be back soon. Turkey season is just around the corner. Walleye fishing gets really good the end of April.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And really good May and June. And he doesn't care about that at all. He's a smallmouth guy. So.

[C]

Which smallmouth fishing also gets really, really good.

[A]

Really good.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, like, there really isn't an off season, but with the, with the bird dogs, you know, it just, it doesn't stop, you know, until April 15th. We can still run on wild birds. And so trying to keep the dogs out there, keep them somewhat in shape because as all of us during the winter time, we, they want to relax a little bit as well. But trying to keep them out there, keep them kind of tight on wild birds. And then once April 15th, K gets, gets here, then it's just kind of playing fetch in the yard, swimming the dogs, you know. But it's, it's a, it's a thing that goes all the way through. And the other thing that I'm always paying attention to because as much of a camera nerd as you are, I am that with birds. So the weather apps on my phone are out of control.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I'm always paying attention to these little micro habitats that I really like to go and chase in these different bird species. So I'm paying attention to weather patterns from basically 1st of March all the way until the 1st of September, seeing where's getting rain, where got too much rain, where it's too dry, hail, storms, all this other kind of stuff. So it's, you know, I've, I bet I answered the question a thousand times this weekend. I never gave anybody an answer that they wanted. They're like, where are you hunting next year? I said, ask me in August.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because until August comes, you don't know where's going to be good and where's not.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're like, you're trying, you're just going to keep a secret or whatever. It's like, no, I'm. Honest to God, like I, I'm, I don't have bad hunts because the weather and, you know, follow the reports and wherever there's going to be bird numbers, you're likely I will turn up at some point.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I was going to say, just look at what happened last year. I mean, right, like pretty mild winter.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Pretty good hatch, to be perfectly honest. I mean, there was like enough Moisture, enough growth. But then like those storms rolled through.

[A]

July was brutal and just.

[B]

And the cold nights that we had when we had the storms was really tough on.

[C]

But I mean, what was the winds up to 80.

[A]

Oh, 80, 80, 90 miles an hour.

[C]

And then hail.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and with, with chicks, it's the. You need. They need warm, dry weather for those first 14 days because they can't thermoregulate.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And with all the upland bird species, they're very good at creating more birds if. If there's a bad nesting event. But if one chick lives, they're done. There's no more reness. So, you know, when a mama sharp tail is sitting there huddled up with her little brood and, you know, six out of the eight die, that's going to be a brood of. That's a covey. Now like that's a group of three birds instead of. It could have been 10.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So I mean like, it can, it can go, it can swing hard. And like I told, you know, Travis from the Flush, he's been going over to Montana for that first early part of the season every year because they, until this coming season, They've always opened September 1st for non residents as well as residents. And so it's kind of that first, first state on the docket. Everybody's been pumped all summer. You know, we're planning this. And he was going over there to film an episode of the Flush with Ben Bredigan from Onyx. And I was like, guys, I'm telling you, it's going to be tough.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And they went over there and they hunted. They walked 12, 13 miles a day and they shot a handful of birds and they didn't see very many birds. Yeah, I mean they still, you know, they went like lake trout fishing on Fort Peck and so they were able to still get a TV show of it. But I was like, this is one of those reminder moments that just because it was good there last year and has been for the last eight or nine years. Yeah, it's not going to be that way every year.

[C]

It can swing super fast.

[A]

Super fast.

[C]

When you look at massive weather events like that, I think that goes to show. Did a podcast this morning for the Roost and my buddy Aaron Warburton and I talked a lot about like, how many factors go into a population.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So I mean, it's habitat, it's predator, prey management, it's. But weather factors, it's, you know, moisture conditions, all the things. And everybody wants like this silver bullet to fix it or do it. And, like, there's just some things that

[A]

are completely out of control.

[B]

It'll never be just one thing that causes.

[A]

Yeah, it's a cascade.

[B]

Yep. It's just. It keeps going and going, and you can't get away from it.

[A]

Well. And, you know, with the farther I've gotten into this in the last decade now, I guess I. I feel like, you know, like that Chicken Little farmer kind of a guy. It's like, it's too wet, it's too cold, it's too hot, it's too wet. You know, it's too dry, whatever. Like, I don't know what the perfect recipe is, but I know last summer was not that.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You know, like, we had. But there's always silver linings as well. So, like, the month of July last year, we had record rainfalls and. And low temperatures.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It wasn't good for sharp tails and Hungarian partridge. The pheasants were out of this world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was pheasants everywhere. And, you know, so with. With every. With every plus, there's a minus. And this year, it was the year of the pheasant in North Dakota. I mean, it was unbelievable.

[C]

Yeah. And I was. I was driving west to go do some big game hunting, and I was just doing a scouting mission, and I called you on that trip, but I also called good friend RJ who is RJ Gross. RJ Gross. He's the bird guy.

[A]

He's a stud.

[C]

Yeah. For North Dakota. And he's like, hey, I know you're scouting big game, but, like, while you're out there, like, keep an eye out for grouse. And I was like. I was like, what's. You know, what's going on? He's like, man number. He's like, we had a lot of complaints from guys hunting and, you know, just not seeing a lot of numbers. And I was like. I was like, all right, yeah, I'll keep an eye out. And then after the trip, he's like, you see any grouse? And I was like, I saw four.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[C]

And typically, when you're hiking around in that, like, badlands type country, you're bumping coveys of sharpies a lot, or, like, all of a sudden there'll be 30 that just, you know, fly overhead.

[A]

You know, the last time I had a. An archery tag and I was hunting down there, I had a flock of sharp tails ruin a stock for me because I crawled right through the middle of them.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

It'll happen.

[C]

I have had that happen as well.

[A]

And, boy, you Want to talk about a start?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Like that. That will get your heart racing a little bit.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. It's. It's like being like. I used to get scared of pheasants flushing when I was a little kid.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But that. Exactly. Like you're crawling through. You're being super quiet, you know, there's not a lot of wind. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, gosh.

[C]

They expl, like. Yeah. Didn't need that right now.

[A]

Right, right. I was a little tuned up as it was, you know. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was. It was a tougher one out there, you know, and when we were down there in April hunting turkeys, there was a ton of sharp tails on Lex.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And I spent a lot of time with my phone just filming them on the Lex because watching them dance is super cool. Yeah. And I was thinking it was, you know, like, holy buckets. I mean, because we had a super nice open winter and sharp tails are a native bird, so it's not like they're. Winter doesn't really bother them a whole lot. But the better shape that they come out of the winter in the females will produce more eggs. And I was like, there's going to be sharp tails everywhere. Wasn't the case.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. And it sure seemed like that. I mean, I'm supposed to go out and shoot photos with Seth this spring and. Seth Owens.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

He. Anybody who.

[A]

Seth sees us on Instagram.

[C]

Seth sees. Yeah, he's great. But we're going to go shoot photos on Lex and stuff.

[A]

Stuff.

[C]

Because I've wanted to.

[A]

It's cool.

[C]

The last couple springs and just timing of everything. He's like, I'm going to get you out this spring. So I'm excited to go see some of that and just see what the, like, flocks are looking like, how many birds are on Lex and like, you know, get a little bit of behind the scenes on that kind of stuff.

[A]

Right. And the. The game and fish does a really good job of. They do the. The roadside surveys. They also do the Lex surveys every year. And I'm a huge fan of our North Dakota Game and Fish department, the work that they do. But. But, you know, I'm guessing just.

[C]

We're gonna pause for a second. We got room service, apparently.

[A]

What do you got? Jeez.

[C]

All right, all right. Sorry for the pause. When I rented this room, I added on a mystery four pack of drecker beer.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[C]

And so they decided that right now is the best.

[A]

What was the time?

[C]

This was now. So Anybody, Any of you need one?

[A]

I'll tell you after this weekend at pheasant festival. Yeah, thanks a bunch.

[C]

I'm just gonna put these down below. We'll go back to coffee.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Where were we at?

[A]

We were talking about the game and fish and, and the, the surveys and stuff like that. So I'm, I'm guessing in our area, northwest North Dakota, I'm guessing that the birds were down roughly 60 to 70% for sharp tails and for Huns.

[C]

Oh man.

[A]

And I'm guessing that it's going to, they're, they're going to, it's going to be very reflective in their LEX surveys this spring. Yeah, that's, that's a good indicator of how the previous year did. Just like with the pheasants with the crow counts. Right. In the spring when the game and fish go out and they run the same routes every single year and they have like a number, pheasants are going to be through the roof. But with the sharp tails, I'm guessing it's going to be down 60 to 70% statewide. The next number that's going to be way more important than that is the brood survey that they do. They do these, these roadside brood surveys where they drive and if they see a sharp tail or a pheasant or a Hun, they get out and they try to flush them and they get an, like an actual count of, of what it is. And these are long established routes. I think RJ said they've been doing the same routes for about 50 years, I think.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that is going to be a way more important indicator number than, than what the LEX survey is going to be because again, they can blow up in a hurry for sure.

[C]

Do you think one just thinking about the surveys and stuff and how like thermal technology has changed so much, do you think there will be a time where they'll start to use like thermal drones to fly to do these surveys?

[A]

Interesting that you bring that up because they did some of that in Arizona for merns quail.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Because mernsquil and like the, the, the, the common knowledge or thought process behind merns quail forever is that they live in these little micro habitats down low in these beautiful valleys. And it turns out they were curious about this. They flew drones up higher on the mountains of like way out of typical and they were, they were finding Covey's emergence quail with thermal drones at night. That's super because they're all huddled up in a little ball and they can see them.

[B]

I think it Would be really hard with the sharp tails. Because if you ever watch them on a lek, if a hawk flies over.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

They totally disperse.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And then half hour, 45 minutes later, one male will come back and then they'll start coming back. But every time that hawk comes in and disperses them, less and less males come back onto the lek along with their hens. And I don't know if they would want to. But if you float high enough. High enough.

[A]

But with quail, it works great. Yeah.

[B]

Because then that just. They lock in and they're in those.

[A]

They're in those family groups in, you know, in cover. It absolutely works with quail. I mean, particularly bobwhites and merns.

[C]

Yeah. Because I had a buddy who did precision ag drone stuff in North Dakota. And just. I was just thinking about the type, the way that they flew the drone. So everything was really high. And it would fly a pattern, right. And then it would take data every so many feet or whatever, take a photo. And I was like, you could do the same thing at night. You fly it high enough and basically have like, okay, we do, you know, this square mile. This square mile, you know, kind of like. And then extrapolate it out, you know, based on statistics. But it could be cool, you know, going forward. As much hate as, like, the thermal stuff is getting for that Etheline, you know, ethical. And, like, when I look at thermals, I'm like, oh, that's just predator management.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And, like, deer recovery stuff has been really cool.

[A]

Oh, super cool.

[C]

There's a lot of people that are mad about that because it. It would be very easy to start scouting for deer, 100%. But, man, like, some of that deer recovery stuff that they're starting to do, I'm like, that is a million percent worth it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because a lot of times if somebody shoots a deer and doesn't recover it, they'll go back to hunting. I mean, I've done it. I've, you know, clipped deer or whatever with my bow. And it's like, well, I've got another eight days. Like, I searched for three. I'm going back out. And it's personal preference, right. Whether you cut your tag or you continue to hunt. But if you can for sure know, like, oh, that deer is 100 alive.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Or that deer's dead right there.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Then you can not your tag go home, you know, cut that deer up. So that's pretty cool. But, like, looking at the upland side, I think that could be, like, as far as Creating better science when it comes to season dates, bag limits and having. Because a lot of times state agencies are working on lagging indicators. And so like, okay, let's say you had a really good season, there's a lot of birds around, and then the next year they're like, oh, well, based on number of hunter days, we can issue this many more licenses or we can increase the bag limit by one or whatever it might be. And then all of a sudden you have a massive weather event and it's too late to change.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know, we've had that on deer quite a bit for sure. Some of that stuff, some of that science that could be implemented quicker might save populations and help them rebound faster.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Because you know, then you don't have a group of guys that goes out and they still hunt for a week and kill what's left.

[A]

Right. Our mutual friend Wade Zerlingo from down in Arizona, his, his saying has always been that populations drive hunter numbers. Hunter numbers do not drive populations.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And I'm a firm believer in that. But with certain bird species, quail are a really good example of this. Hungarian partridge are also a really good example of this. You get those guys that come out for a three day trip, four day trip, whatever, and they've got a bucket list. You know, I want to, I want to shoot some hunts, right. And you get a covey of Huns up and maybe it's been a bad weather event year. And that coveys four birds and they're good shots and they drop four birds.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That covey no longer exists.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That covey is off the landscape now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so like being able to adjust stuff like that, I think there'd be, you know, there's definitely some, some value there for sure. In fact, the Hun number, the coveys around us were bad. And I mean there were still the same number of cubbies as there was last year, but the average size went from 14 to 16 to 5, 6.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so we went out the first weekend and we were hunting Huns and we kept on seeing these small coveys. We quit hunting them. Yeah, we, we did not. I, we ended up, or I ended up shooting more Huns in Nevada this year than I did in North Dakota. And it's not because I didn't have opportunities. It's because I don't want to take more out of that particular covey because I like to hunt them a lot.

[B]

Knowing, you know, we live in North Dakota.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're not really sure what the winter is going to be yet even in early November you get up a small covey of say, you know, like Tyler was saying, five or six, you take two out of there.

[A]

They need that.

[B]

That's a covey of four. Now are they going to have enough thermal regularity to keep themselves alive through.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Any kind of weather?

[C]

And that's, and that's really incredible. Like hunter control.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

But then it.

[B]

Shouldn't we all be that way?

[A]

We should.

[B]

Yeah, we should.

[C]

We should be 100 and that's, you know, that's something that we need to do a better job as a whole. Like pre.

[B]

Correct, correct.

[C]

But the, the hard part about that is everybody's in a different phase of their hunting.

[A]

Right. Like, and I, I don't ever shame somebody for it. I mean like it's, but it's something to be conscious of.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Right. I mean you just, we all had bloodlusty phases. I'm not saying I'm all the way over mine. Like I, I still, I still, I've seen get pretty.

[C]

You still hunt two days.

[A]

And I'm, I'm, I'm aware of that in myself and I'm working on it. But you know, it's just, it's looking at those, those long term things. Right. So. And I do that in North Dakota. He does that in North Dakota. I do that in Arizona for Mearns and same thing in Kansas because I have been doing this long enough in those states to know that hey, I can go and I can walk this canyon in Arizona. And last year there was six coveys in this canyon and I'll take a bird, a covey. And I also have to be aware that marns quail live in a pretty small place.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And we're not the only people that are down there hunting them. There's going to be other people that are also going to take birds out of those populations. But it gives me this resource. Like you open up my Onyx folder on it's wild, the number of pins that I have dropped across the country. But I can with a really high degree of certainty drop my dogs in one of those canyons because I've put the boots on the ground and because I've managed the coveys that are in there.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean sometimes it might only be two, sometimes I might not find any. But I know that I didn't, I wasn't part of the problem.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, for people listening to this, if you're younger listening to this and you spend a lot of time hunting, fishing, doing These things, I think it's important to kind of just in the back of your mind, always think about the, the quality of experience of hunt you want to have in the future.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So you might go out if you're going to have an absolute banger day that day, that's amazing. Right. But if you do it, if you manage the resource in the wrong way, you don't get to have that same type of day next year. And the next year the guys that

[A]

are really, really good about that are the rough grouse guys. And they're also so, so adaptable because their, their covers age out so fast. Like, I swear to God, there's, there's ruff grouse guys out there that have a big male ruff grouse that is named, I mean, like, I mean they

[B]

name him like white tailed deer, literally.

[A]

And you know, and they cuss his name at night because they are, they can never, you know, but they're so good about doing that. And the birds do their part as well, making themselves very tough to actually get a good shot at.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But you know, if I can go to any place up by, up in my neck of the woods and there's coveys of Huns that I have hunted the Same coveys for 20 years. I mean, it's not the same birds, but they're related.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You know, and I, and it's fun to be able to go out there and follow a covey of Huns through nine different jumps and see the exact same pattern that I seen in that thing 20 years ago. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you get those kind of experiences that are a lot, I mean, like, let's face it, at the end of the day, we do not hunt upland birds because that's all we're eating.

[C]

Right.

[A]

One of the most calorie negative activities in the outdoor space. Right. I mean like you are never going to be able to harvest enough upland game birds to replenish the calories that you have burned for sure. And so like it's upland hunting. And I think that's why I love it so much and why I like the community so much is because instead of, yes, we'd certainly want to get our birds, we want to have, have fun time shooting birds with our friends and eating them and all that kind of stuff. But we hunt for those moments of watching a dog running across the prairie and just rip a 90 degree point. Right. Like, I don't care at that point if I've, if I like, I could have my limit at that point or I Could not even have a gun with me.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That's the moment that I hunt for.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

And it's, you know, it's kind of like I took it as this, as, you know, with our huntings this year, even our sharp tail after the opening weekend, and we did notice how much they were down. It's basically catch and release hunting. Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Your dog has done everything correct up to that point. You've walked in there, the only thing you're missing is the bang is the shot.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's. And that's okay.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, if you want to equate it to. It's like other types of hunting, you know, for people listening to this and like, they don't do. If they don't do a lot of upland hunting, hunting, you know, in the turkey world, it's like, it's okay if they win, right? Yeah, like that.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know, and then in the whitetail world, it's like, you know, deer worlds, they're like, just let them grow. You know, a lot of people are trying to preach that message. I don't really care. But, like, when it comes to deer, like, shoot what you want.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The turkey thing, I totally understand. I have been whooped more times, way more times than I've won.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And I love it. It's why I love turkey hunting. And so when you look at managing this, you know, know, resource and making sure that these experiences continue to happen, it takes trigger control.

[A]

It does, it does, it does. And I mean, and again, with North Dakota Game and Fish Department, our limits are pretty conservative.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you can shoot three sharp tails, three Huns and three pheasants a day. So do you want to be done by 9:30 in the morning?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Not really.

[A]

Not really.

[B]

I don't know. The weather's nice.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

What are you going to do the

[C]

rest of the day? I have to go fish.

[A]

You got to go fish, right?

[C]

Yeah. You know, and you brought up Wade Zarlingo, and he was one of the first people that I'd heard mention this. And I've heard it talked about a lot since now, like when you talk about bag limits and shooting three roosters or whatever, and when we were down hunting Arizona, I'm trying to remember what the Mearns quail was. Eight.

[A]

Eight.

[C]

Yeah. And Wade was like, I wish they would just switch it to three or four or five or whatever. He's like, because if you go out and you shoot five or shoot four you're like, ah, just, you know, there's a little piece here where it's like, you know, that's amazing day.

[B]

And that's a dang good day.

[C]

A dang good day. Right? But you have a piece of. You're like, well, I didn't fill my limit. Right. I wish I would switch it. Because the feeling you have at the end of the day, if you have a full limit at four or a half limit at four is completely different 100%. He's like, it doesn't change the amount like it doesn't really change the amount of food you're taking home that much. When you, especially when you talk about, about a small bird like that. But the quality of the moments that you feel like you had. If you feel limit at four, you're like, oh, I got.

[A]

We did a talk at Bezenfest on stage DIY road, like bird hunting, road trip kind of a thing. And one of the biggest pieces of advice that I gave in that talk was go on the trip with the right expectations. Right, right. And go into it with a mentality of, you know, I'm not going down here to kill limits. I'm going down here to experience something different with my dogs and with my friends. Right. And it's, it's very much that way when it comes to limit control as well, where it's like, you know, I was out in Nevada chucker hunting this year and those are a bird that I get a little blood lusty about, those little buggers. So they're delicious.

[C]

Is it because you have to walk

[A]

like there's that, there's that them chucking up in the rocks and talking and you watching them run 150 yards ahead of you all the way to the top of a ridge and then flying over to a different mountain and out of your life. Yeah, there's some of that. So. But you know, like the limit is, is six chuckers and four huns a day per person in Nevada. Yeah, that's a pile. That is. And boy, if you get a limit of chuckers, you have earned a limit of chuckers. Right. I mean, so. But I go out there wanting to get. I just want to shoot birds over my dogs. I don't care if it's one or six, it doesn't matter to me. And if those people that go out for the first time, if they go out there thinking, hey, we heard that the population of chukars in Nevada this year was up 145% or whatever it was last year. And they went out there and they were upset if they didn't get limits. And it's like, it's not really what it's about, fellas. No, it's really not.

[C]

Yeah. And I like that you went that direction with it, is the trying to focus on the auxiliary stuff.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And I, the last few years have spent a lot of time chasing whitetails with the bow. And there was two seasons in a row where it took me, like the one year it was like 68 sits before I shot a deer. And then the next year was like 70 some sits before I shot a deer. And the amount of time you sit up there and think, think you're going insane.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Like, like, why? What's wrong with me, like, sitting up here.

[A]

Well, you've hunted turkeys with me. To know that I'm not very good at. No, I'm just not.

[C]

Yeah. And I wanted to, I wanted to get to that. Like, I wanted to loop back on.

[B]

I experienced that firsthand.

[A]

Yeah. I, I, I, it's like I didn't

[B]

break your child and then he's playing with a stick behind you or out in front of you.

[A]

I did this year in the, in the waterfall blind. I was, I made it 45 minutes before I was ready to pull my hair out.

[B]

Well, no, because I got you to go snow goose hunting. Opening day of pheasant season.

[A]

Yeah. In the morning. Until 10 o'. Clock.

[B]

Until 10 o'. Clock.

[A]

I said, I'll give you till 10. And it did. It didn't hurt that there was about 15,000 snow geese in the area and all the juveniles were coming in. And like, we didn't kill a ton of birds, but I mean, we killed 11 or 11 or something like that. It was a good morning.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But it was constant action. If there's not constant action. Yeah, I'm out. Yeah.

[B]

You ain't gonna pull one in off the roost off of him, let me tell you.

[C]

No. Yeah. No.

[A]

Yeah. He tried with me. I've tried coda and I, I was literally playing with sticks.

[B]

Yeah, he was, it was like, I was crazy. Somebody was doing a drum solo. You'd hear it on his pant legs, his boot. I'm like, well, you know, that's not really helping, man.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, and I knew that's kind of how Tyler hunted turkeys. Yeah. Going into last spring, because I had never seen him. Like, I'd never, any video he'd posted had never been like, sit down. Calling him in new.

[B]

No, there's no calling.

[C]

No, no. There's a lot of in stock, like, you know, walk them down kind of thing.

[A]

Yeah. Like just kind of, you know, they're working up this ridge and they don't see me. I'm going to get up here before they do.

[B]

And his consists of a little. Just to lift their head and bang. I tell you, a little push pull. Works great.

[C]

Works awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it. And because you live in a place that has the terrain to do that, it's, you know, obviously different. And I've done quite a bit of that style as well because it's awesome.

[A]

It's. It's so much fun. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You're just. Yeah. I mean, you're just. It's always exciting from the minute that you see them. You and it. I mean, you. The only way I could ever bow hunt is. Is spot and stock. I shot a couple mule deer in the badlands, spot and stock. And it's the exact same thing. Like the, the anticipation from the second that you see those birds. Now it's time to. To. To put something on them. Right. And again, they win a lot of the time.

[C]

All the time.

[A]

Those things are so turned up. I mean, they're, they're, they're hearing's fantastic. Their eyesight's really good. If you can. If you can. I've never shot a turkey spot in stock over 35 yards. Yeah, I mean, you gotta. You gotta work at them a little bit.

[C]

For sure. Yeah. Especially if there's a big group of them. I mean, like just that many eyes that are always, you know, periscoping up and.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Looking for danger.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You guys had a little. A little flock.

[C]

One Small flock.

[A]

A little one. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, we had a small. If anybody hasn't watched it, we had a. Basically five tom strut to about six feet before I took.

[A]

I was showing Doug during the video in the bar last night.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

He's like, oh, my gosh, it was crazy.

[C]

We got. I mean, it was like a shield wall basically working.

[A]

Failing some turkeys.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But no, what I was saying before about spending that much time, like hunting for a specific moment. Right. I had to force myself that every day that I was in the tree and I'm still doing it now is every time I'm in the woods. Woods, because it's easy to get caught up on focusing on the end result. So since then, I have been focusing on like, okay, I'll give myself a number. Be like, all right, today, like, I'm gonna focus on 25 things that are cool, that are Happening here.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Even though there's not deer walking by, there's not, you know, it's not progressing how I would like it to progress. But like, what are the cool moments that are happening right now? Like this fall I did an all day sit, dark to dark, and I got in there crazy early and got up the tree and I didn't shoot a deer that day. I had a couple young deer walk by. But the coolest thing, one of the coolest things that ever happened to me in the woods is it was a really cold morning. And then we had had warmer days before and we had a cold front come in and it was a really cold morning and I was kind of on this little pinch between like a cattail slough and then a little bit bigger body of water.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And I'm just sitting there and then all of a sudden I heard like the leaves rustle and I just figured it was a squirrel. And then I started, I was like, it's not a squirrel because it's too inconsistent. And I started looking down. Well, I had a migration of leopard frogs.

[A]

No way.

[C]

Move. Like as the sun warmed them up, they started jumping from the cattail marsh over to the bigger body of water because the water would be warmer on that side. So I watched like 200 leopard frogs jump through the oak leaves below me over to that bigger pond.

[A]

Oh, that's wild.

[B]

That would be pretty cool.

[C]

I mean, talk about something you never see on November 8th or whatever, right. So I try to focus on seeing all of these different things and like coming home with this collection of memories that I can either journal about, write down or talk about on a podcast, like for sure. Or like, you know, soak that in. Because I know know that when I'm 65, 70 years old, I can look back on some of the stuff and go, I don't even. I mean, yeah, I remember the deer and I remember the Mrs. And I remember the stuff. But like, remember that moment I had

[A]

one of those two springs ago, turkey hunting. There was a big group of toms up on top of this ridge just going nuts. And I was like, my calling ability is bad. Like just flat, end of, end of sentence. But it's good enough if there's five toms up on a ridge and if I could get inside their bubble, I can get them fired up enough to come towards me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I'm sliding around on these things and I got to about 150 yards or so and I come around this corner and there's a bobcat coming, doing the exact same thing. I'm. He's after those turkeys. Just like I'm after those turkeys. And we looked at each other, and he's like, oh. And he ran right straight through that flock of turkeys. And like, I. Off the cliff they went. Never seen him again. But I could care less about shooting a turkey. I got to have that weird little moment with a Bobcat at about 15ft. Yeah.

[C]

Which most people never have in their entire life.

[A]

No.

[C]

Yeah, It's.

[A]

I think I actually called him and I called the other buddy George, because I was down there by myself that day. And they're like, get you, will. They're like, did you get a turkey? I was like, no, but you got it. This. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, that's so cool. I've, you know, cat. Like, cats are a cool thing to have on the landscape. Bobcats and mountain lions and stuff. Yep. It just reminded me a buddy and I were elk hunting in Montana, and we're in breaks country, and we had hiked all the way into the spot. You know, it was back. It was before I had onx, before I had, you know.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Map on the phone. I had the topo map of, like, the area or whatever.

[A]

I still got my books.

[C]

Yeah. And I actually love that because you could look at it and be like, hey, from right here, we should be able to glass this drainage, this drainage and this drainage, you know, and then you just go there and like, oh, this is cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So. So it was one of those spots parked. Hiked a mile and a half in or whatever. And we sat down on this little finger ridge where we could look up this. Look up and down this giant drainage. And we ended up seeing quite a few elk. But we were kind of on the, you know, one side of the ridge, glassing as much as we could. And I was like, hey, Kai, I'm just going to stand up and I'm going to walk over here and glass down this other side. And so I grabbed my bow and I grabbed my spotting scope, and I stand up, and from behind a sage bush, I lock eyes with this thing. And, like, it didn't register. Right.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And I was like, what? Like, I don't. What is that? Like, I don't see this. It's a shape and figure. I was like, I don't see this in the woods, you know? And so it took me, like, bigfoot. Yeah. Right. So it took me a couple seconds to like, figure out what I was looking at. And it was a mountain lion that had snuck up on us because I'm sure it could just see our heads in the sage. Right. And so I lock eyes and I go, kai, there's a mountain lion right there. And he goes, shut up. And I was like, no, stand up. And Kai stands up and he looks over and there, sure enough, mountain lion from like, you know, it's probably, I think it was like 8 yards and standing there. And it was a small cat. It wasn't like, you know, it wasn't 180 pound tom or something like that was probably like a 90 pound, you know, female.

[B]

Still a big kitty.

[C]

Still a big kitty, yeah. And then it saw that there was two of us and ran off. But when it was just me staring it down, it was not turning and running.

[B]

They're not intimidated.

[C]

Not at all. And it was those eyes staring into your soul is one of the craziest feelings I've ever had. But the funny thing to me was how long it took for me to register like, what is that?

[A]

Yeah, you recognize it as a thing. Just not sure which thing.

[C]

My body is sensing danger and I can't figure out why.

[A]

But the next time you're down in Southern Arizona, you got to go over and do this podcast with Warren Warner. Yeah, I've. I met Warner Glenn when I was 8, 9 years old. And listening to him tell a story about a jaguar that he ran with his dogs in 96, he's like, Man, I've seen a lot of mountain lions up a tree and on rocks and I've climbed in them after mines and everything else. And he's got some crazy stories about mountain lions. He's like, I've never seen a cat look at me like that. And I said, what do you. What was the difference? He said, it looked at me like it wasn't impressed.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And like it was a different look. Oh, man, that guy is a legend. Yeah, legend.

[C]

I'll have to have you get me

[B]

in touch because same thing happened to me in Arizona last year on a trip. I do a lot of predator calling.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I've never. I've always wanted to shoot a gray fox.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So while we're down there, Merns, quail hunting was pretty slow. So I'm like, well, I'm gonna go, yeah, do me some predator calling. Go up into this canyon that we have shot quite a few merns quail in before up in that country and get up on these nice rock cliffs and. And they're about 11 foot rock, basically benches, you know, going up. And I sat down in the first one and I'm looking, I'm like, nah, I'm not high enough. I need to just go up one more and I'll be able to see the whole bottom. This great spot. There could be bobcats in here, you know, whatever. I know more and turning that call on and it ain't. I, I would, I would suggest probably, probably 30 seconds and I see a bobcat. And I mean smoking down this rock ridge right to me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, all I'm carrying is a 17 HMR. I'm like, oh, this is gonna be so easy. Because my call is 60 yards down below me and that cat's coming, coming, coming. And I'm like, wow. He's actually very white bellied. Nice spots. I'm like, this is going to be sweet feet. About that time he gets to. What are them bushes called?

[A]

Manzanita.

[B]

Manzanita bush. And just flat on his belly and looking up at me, I'm like, I'm in a ghillie suit. This thing is not seeing me. Yeah. I'm like what is this cat doing? And he just staring like up the rock toward me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, what is going on about that time? I'm like, ah, I probably got a coyote right below me. So switch over. You know, I'll squeak him on out and I'll shoot this coyote.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Nothing ever shows up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But while that cat's laying there, I think I looked at my electronic call and it said it had been running at five minutes and something since I'd first seen this cat. And he just basically turns to the left and I don't even know if it was two leaves, leaps over the bank. Never see him again.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I'm like, oh, coyote, you're. You're gonna get it now.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you ruined my hunt. I'm gonna get you call, call, call. Fifteen minutes are into it. I'm like, he must have left too.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I turn the call off. I'm rustling around up there, Put my controller in my backpack, pick up my rifle, stand up, put my backpack on, go to step over the rock, lift. And I am 5ft from probably 135 pound mountain lion. But the worst thing is we both look at each other at the same time.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because neither of us knew we were there.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And he went one way and I went the other because what am I gonna do?

[A]

Poke him.

[B]

And the night before I went out there, we were talking about, you know, you have a very good possibility in a Lot of this country down there to call in a mountain lion.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I'm like, I'm never going to call one in. I could have went down to Walmart and bought a license.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But the thing I got to thinking about after that and I had to go down and get my call was he was on the bench I sat down on originally.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I would have sat down there, he would have been for me to you when he showed up.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But then the other thing I got to thinking about was, was for him to get to there that fast, that. That bobcat seen that cat move on that rock ledge. How close was he to be before I started calling?

[C]

Right. Really close.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Because they don't come in. You know, being in South Dakota, we rip. They don't come ripping in there, you know, wide open, like, you know, a coyote or anything else. He snuck in there and he was there quick.

[C]

That's crazy. Yeah. They're such a cool animal. Yes. And like, you know, there's a lot of people that are like, I've never seen a mountain lion.

[B]

And I. I guarantee you have.

[C]

You just didn't know it. And I guarantee they've seen you.

[A]

Yeah. You know, 100. Yeah. They're crazy critters.

[C]

Yeah. My older brother had been. He's like. He's like, all these. All this time I've spent the woods, not one time have I seen a mountain lion. And he was starting to get mad at me because I had had this experience in Montana and the breaks with the mountain l line I saw, I caught. I took a photo of two of them running in Idaho. Like, Ben o' Brien and I were driving down the road during bear camp and two mountain lions go screaming across the road. And I got my camera out in time and caught a photo of them running through this meadow, which was, you know. And then I went on a mountain lion hunt with Donnie Vincent and I saw.

[A]

Seen him this weekend at Peasant.

[C]

He's a great guy. Yeah, I love Donnie. He's been on the podcast. It was awesome. But saw a bunch when we were on a hunt for his.

[A]

Him.

[C]

But then Josh and I were in Arizona and we were in our four wheel drive van driving around looking for coos deer. And here comes Mountain lion run across the road. And then it ran up and sat down on a little bluff above us and like, gave us a, like, nice long good view. I got photos of that one too.

[A]

So they're cool.

[C]

They're such cool critters.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I've been at a lot of lion trees, and I tell you, they're impressive. You know, when you look at them, you think they're, you know, oh, he's £200, you know, but guys, everybody thinks that, but they, they're not that big, but when you hold them up.

[C]

Oh, yeah, they're.

[A]

They're intimidating.

[B]

Very intimidating.

[A]

Big murder kitty.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So for people listening, I mean, just, I kind of want to just close this out. But like, for people listening that maybe don't hunt upland birds. What would, what's just a piece of advice that each of you would give to people like that. Like, want to go try it, get into it, Just.

[A]

Just do it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, 100%, like I said in the beginning, doing something like that with a family pet that you live with 365 days a year, it's. It's a whole different connection. After you've spent time in the fields with bird dogs, it's going to take you some to some unbelievably cool places, and you're going to get a lot of those moments with your dog, with your kids, with your friends that you're going to be able to talk about for years. And the, you know, and we've touched on a lot of it today. You know, it's, it's really not about limits.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, now I, like I said, I get. I want to kill pheasants and I want to kill chuckers, but like, it's not just about that. Like, and the other bird species I'm far less mad at than those two in particular. Yeah. But like, it's going to take you to some really cool places and you're going to get, you're going to make some memories that will last a lifetime for sure.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah. I would probably have to say I've. Well, I had a lot of guys come up me to me this last weekend and thank me for basically telling him it's okay to fail.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because your first three times you go somewhere to hunt something, you're more likely not going to be that successful, but

[C]

you will have success.

[B]

You just don't know it yet. You're learning your covers, you know, you're learning your dog a little more. You know, just stop being afraid and, you know, know talking to it with your buddies. Oh, let's go do this, let's go do that. No matter what it is, whether it's upland bird hunting, going on a waterfowl hunting trip, going on a big mule deer hunt, go do it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you ain't getting any older.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So the first out of state upland trip I ever took was to Kansas with four of my or three of my really good friends and myself. And we had these unrealistic expectations built up in our mind and we went down there and in five days we walked 60 miles. Miles. And we've seen maybe 10 pheasants maybe. I think we killed two out of those 10 and we found one covey of quail. And we're just, I mean in the dumps. Right. Like the getting ready to pack up. And I remember my buddy Matt saying, you know, I'm ready to leave this state. And I was like, yep, me too. By the time we got to the Nebraska border, we're already planning to come back.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And you know, and like so, so just go into it with a reasonable expectation. Don't go like don't. If you think that you're going to go out there and just kill it. Like Wes said, it's roughly a three year learning curve for me on a new state. Like I'm going to go there the first year for five days and I'm going to get some success. Year two, I'm going to have that success to draw on and then expand out. Year three dialed. Right.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And like, but it's, it's not a, it's not a. It's not an easy thing. Like it takes time and it's okay to, it's okay to fail.

[B]

Yeah. Don't feel bad if you don't come back with a cooler full of meat.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because more than likely you're not going to.

[C]

Yeah. You know I think the cool thing about that though is one, you get to go have these experience in a bunch of places. Two, most of the time you're simply buying a small game license.

[A]

So very affordable.

[C]

So when you're, you know, comparatively to like big game licenses where it's a lot of times it's 7,800,000 bucks, 1500 bucks to go buy an elk license or a deer license or a combination. You can get into it for relatively inexpensive still go.

[A]

Arizona is a great example of that. Right. I mean you, it's 160 bucks and it's a 365 day license. You can get two hunting trips out of a 365 day license. You can go in January and the next year you come back in December and you're still on your same license. Yeah. It's very affordable.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Tyler west tell people where they can listen to your podcast. Again, one more time.

[A]

And then we'll sign Western Wing Shooter Podcast. Literally any place that you can find a podcast.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. And the Prairie Tales Podcast.

[A]

Same way with Tyler.

[B]

Literally anywhere. Instagram or Prairie Tales Podcast on Instagram.

[A]

Yeah. And Western Wing Shooter Podcast and Instagram as well. Perfect.

[C]

Well, again, thank you guys so much for taking time to stop along your road trip.

[A]

We needed to stretch.

[B]

We need it. Yeah.

[C]

It's good. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, thanks again and appreciate you hopping on with me.

[A]

100%.

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