← Legends of the Wild, A Field And Stream Production | Hunting, Fishing and the Outdoors
Legends of the Wild, A Field And Stream Production | Hunting, Fishing and the Outdoors
Episode 19 - Fly Fishing Built This Life: Oliver White on Risk, Lodges, and Purpose With Oliver White
01:01:45
From broken bones to global fishing lodges, this story redefines what success outdoors really means.
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- [00:02]
Oliver White
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Sam
This is Legends of the Wild presented by Field and Stream. Let's get into it.
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Oliver White
Hey, everybody.
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Sam
Welcome back to another episode of Legends of the Wild. I'm. I'm always excited about these episodes, but today I'm super excited. I've got Oliver White on, so welcome to the show. Oliver.
- [01:11]
Oliver White
Hey, Sam. Good, good to see you again. Thanks so much for having me.
- [01:15]
Sam
Yeah, it's. Honestly, I'm trying. Been a long time since we've, like, connected in person face to face, for sure. Yeah, long time. I think we were at an event for YETI way back when I was doing a bunch of photo stuff for the brand. And you've been working in some capacity with YETI for forever. So it's good to see you again.
- [01:35]
Oliver White
Yeah, absolutely. I'm actually, I just got home from Austin down visiting the YETI guys just a couple days ago.
- [01:42]
Sam
Yeah, it's just such a good crew. And one of the things I wanted to say as we got going to this is you are the first dive into. So, you know, this is for Field and Stream. Right. And this was not. We tried to do this podcast a while back, so. But this is the first episode in this short life of Legends of the Wild where we're diving on into the fishing side, which is not how I wanted it to be. I wanted to be more balanced, but a lot of my contacts in the space are on the hunting side, so I'm pumped to have somebody that we could dive into the fishing side a lot more today.
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Oliver White
Yeah, well, fantastic. I mean, I mean, you know, obviously fish Field and Stream is iconic and I've done a little work with them in the past and I'm happy, happy to be the first, you know?
- [02:24]
Sam
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I think one of the things to try to do here is just, I mean, obviously you've been on a million podcasts, right? So, you know, you've told kind of your story but just to, just to kind of start it off so people get a better understanding of like who you are. Can you give us like a high level rundown of how you got into the world of fishing in the first place? And then we'll, we'll go from there. But like, where did, where did it all start for you? Because you know, like the, the fishing side of field and stream is so much bigger than the hunting side, which is where I spend a lot of my time. But when you look at fishing in general, whether it be fly fishing, which is kind of your forte, but like the general scope of fishing in general, the, the that market of people that like group of people that do that activity, that sport is I don't even know how many folds bigger than the hunting side. So every, I think everyone has more fishing stories than hunting stories in general. So go just dive into how you got into it all.
- [03:32]
Oliver White
Well, I think fishing is a lower barrier to entry. I mean, you know, I mean, I hunt a little bit as well. But you know, hunting, you really need a mentor, right? You really need someone to bring you from the safety and knowledge standpoint to get you into it. You know, fishing's a little more organic, right? I mean you can kind of stumble through and, and, and get a taste of it. And at a very early age, connecting to a fish with a piece of string is kind of a magical moment. And for me, I started fishing as a kid and I was really attracted to it. And my dad wasn't an angler, right? So it's similar to why the barrier to hunting is so much higher is like man. I got into fishing as a kid and it was a self driven from an early age of, I just like this, this is something I want to do. And so, you know, even as a little kid I just, I remember having like a little crappy metal tackle box and you know, not fly fishing, but just going out and you know, catching horny heads with a bamboo, you know, rod. It is super basic and simple, you know, on canned corn and it just kind of kept elevating and growing from there. And you know, when I was young, I was just, man, I just loved the outside. And my dad was an outdoorsman, so we spent a lot of time canoeing and camping and you know, hiking and doing, doing those types of pursuits. And you know, with that I found fishing and skiing and rock climbing and, and I was doing a lot of all of that and just, you know, there wasn't a singular focus. You know, as a teenager and then going into college I was still doing all of those things and really the, the pivotal moment for fly fishing took over for me was my junior year a really bad skiing accident and I broke my back and my pelvis and you know, it was just a really hard time in life just from a physical recovery and a emotional recovery and also just kind of a reset of priorities in life and admit missing a year of school and returning home and healing. And honestly I would look, I was in a back brace and a walker and I was just miserable. You know, I went from being this really active, fit 19 year old to being stuck in bed learning to walk again. And that, that was a really, really, really hard moment in life. And I would take, go out in the yard of my parents house with my walker, my back brace and cast my fly rod almost just from a mental therapy to stay sane. And really as I heal from that, you know, fishing became, you know, I was no longer skiing, I was no longer rock climbing and you know, kind of the adventure part of it was, was toned down and fly fishing became kind of the focus. And there's a lot to be said for, you know, the rhythmic part of casting is very, very healing. And I think there's a lot of people that have found this pursuit in that time of life and it certainly did for me. And that moved quickly into, you know, my. I go back to school and I got a job at a fly shop mainly because I was just a broke college kid and I wanted gear and so I really, you know, you know, I was waiting tables and bartending. I got this like part time job to be able to buy my gear at a disc and then that led to guiding and that put me on a totally different track when I so my senior year of school when I got back, I put all my classes on Tuesday and Thursday so I could bounce up to the mountains and guide for the weekend and then come back and finish school. And as I, as I wrapped up school I ended up coming west to Jackson, Wyoming, which is where I live now. And I would do my summers here. My winners down in Argentina.
- [07:02]
Sam
That's awesome. It's not far off from what I try to do with like college classes and like the discount gear thing. Like I worked at Shields Outdoors for six years. I think I spent way more than every paycheck I ever earned on discounted gear for sure. You know, I was like company man, right? You know, like you spend all your money in the back into the store. And then also had scheduled my. When I was going to North Dakota State schedule my classes. I had a fall semester. I was able to get Tuesdays and Thursdays and then I had scheduled my workouts for track so that way I could leave and go duck hunt for the weekends, but then make it back and do that. So, you know, it's good to schedule your lifestyle, like your life around your lifestyle is the better way to do it. For sure.
- [07:49]
Oliver White
Yeah, I think, you know, I do a lot of these podcasts and is really hard anymore to define who I do. I used to tell people all the time I was a fishing guide. I. That's a little unfair now, man. I guide very little, honestly. And really I think what, what I've been able to do that in, in retrospect was done with intention, but not necessarily cognizant of the time, is I have created a life to do what I wanted to do and, and it's all been centered around fishing and being an entrepreneur. That's meant to guiding and it's meant entertaining, it's meant doing hospitality and it's meant owning fishing lodges and has meant writing and it's meant, you know, doing the, the social promotion of working with brands and doing videos and all of those things. But I've been able to piece together this life that's allowed me to fish and travel and been all over the world and you know, it's, you know, it's lifestyle rich is how I define it.
- [08:47]
Sam
Well, I think that's a lesson to be learned because it, it takes what it takes, right? You have to do whatever the thing that allows you to continue to like, go down that path. Right? It's the same reason that I got into photography. I was like, well, I'll be able to spend more time in the woods and hunt more. But like, the number of times I've been asked like, well, you know, would you rather be behind the camera with, you know, pulling the trigger on the camera or the one with the tag in your pocket or the one with the rod in your hand? And it's always, I'd rather be the one with the tag or with the rod or like, you know, but like, I carry this little black box around because it allows me to go do all these things and the same thing as you. It's like I'm doing this podcast right now for Field and Stream because it allows me to talk to people like you and network within the industry and meet people and go on adventures and do things, to come back and talk about all this stuff. So I, I appreciate the fact that you like, have the awareness that you're like, not so much a fly guide anymore, but you just kind of followed the path that allowed you to, like you said, create that lifestyle that you wanted
- [09:55]
Oliver White
to energet. The other part of that is there's real passion there and, you know, passion. People are interesting people. When you do that, your, your gravitational force gets bigger and you bring a lot of people into your orbit and if you are aware, it opens doors and you just have to be willing to walk through and take the risk. And I've done that kind of over and over again in my life and, you know, by and large, it's served me well.
- [10:18]
Sam
Yeah. And I, you know, it's, it's scary, right? Like those, I mean, before we started recording, you were talking about just like the, the behind the scenes, just a little bit. Like I was telling you that I appreciate from the outside looking in. Right. And then social media is all curated, right? Mine, yours, everybody who posts anything online. But having met you in person, I told you that I appreciate the way you move through life. Right. Like, it's, you have kind of. From the outside looking at it, it's a flow. Right. But that is a, that comes from a lot of hard work. And I think the, I think what a lot of people miss when they're trying to create a life that they want is they don't realize that you're going to be terrified a lot of the time. And a lot of time it's not glamorous. Like, there's so much stuff that goes on in this type of life that is just. You're on the computer, you're on the phone, you're traveling between business meetings, you're doing trade shows, you're doing all of the, the grunt work that still allows you to go do all the cool stuff too.
- [11:21]
Oliver White
Yeah. I mean, 100%. I think people always under, appreciate or underestimate the work that goes into the creation. There's. Yeah. In so many ways. I mean, the life's amazing. Right. And, and like I tell people all the time, had you told me at 18 or 25 that I could do what I do now and make what I make now with a sign of blood and thought I was making a deal with the devil. Right. Like, I, Right. It's, it's winning. Right. Like, I mean, this is, it's a great life and, and you never want to get removed from that. But the, the, you know, I do find, especially now that, you know, you know, my, my current fishing lodge, I have over a hundred employees and in the nature of a fishing lodge. I don't even know. I bet you our average. Average age is, you know, certainly under 30, right? And, yeah, I think that the willingness to put in the effort and grind and the time it takes to kind of master your craft isn't appreciated enough anymore. Kind of one of the things that's really important to me is, is that, you know, you know, I was talking about, I finished school and I started guiding, and I love guiding, and I was good at it, but at that. At that time, and I never thought you could guide forever, right? It was. I was actively doing something I was really passionate about and really good at, knowing that that chapter was going to end because you can't. You had to get a, quote, real job eventually. And so, you know, I never considered what a lifetime of guiding would have looked like. And so now, as an employer of fishing guides, it's really important for me to. To recognize, man, it's an honorable profession, and it is a mastery of a craft. You know, the, the anecdote I give all the time is, you know, my attorney, 700 an hour, right? I mean, a good fishing guide, you know, myself included. I mean, I put just as much or more effort into mastering my craft than. Than that guy. And, you know, what. What is that worth? And so, you know, I work really hard in a structure where fishing guides can look at this as a career and do it forever. And I think that's a really important perspective because I do think you never want to overinflate what you do. I mean, ultimately, you take people fishing and you. And it's like the silliest kind of fishing. You're taking them fishing to let them go, right? I mean, you just. Yeah, they're pure sport. And at the same time, you're. You're kind of entrusted with people's most valuable thing, which is their free time to do something that they love, like their happy moments. And so it's really important to kind of take that in perspective that, hey, you were entrusted with, like, the most precious thing, and you have to be a good steward of that.
- [13:57]
Sam
I think that's a cool window to look through. Right? And. And not only you understanding that like, that you are. You're helping these people, like, balance their life, right? They booked this trip, spend a bunch of money to go out and spend days on the river and to. To make sure that they're having a quality experience, right? And they're enjoying their time on the water and, like, being able to escape whatever their life is. You Know, back at home, whether that be running a business or working for somebody or just, you know, like you're helping them kind of like have this moment in time that they get to. When they're back there in that place grinding on whatever, they get to think about those moments. So how much, how much do you. How much emphasis do you put that into your guides as well? Like, people that you're managing, like, to make sure that, like, that's the mentality. Like every time you're taking somebody on the river, you're not just out there, you know, fishing for a tip. Like, you're out there, like, really helping people have a day they can remember.
- [14:59]
Oliver White
Yeah. I mean, 100%. And it is well beyond the guide staff. Right. I mean, we are a full hospitality. I mean, but everything is. There's a couple components. There is, you know, we might be on day 100. Right. You're grinding hard in a season. It's day zero, day one for them. So, like, every day, is there, Is there one? And you got to really be excited and so kind of keeping that mentality and, you know, controlling the controllables is another big one for us. I mean, there's fishing is fishing. Weather is weather. The outdoors are the outdoors. There are things outside of our control that you just have to deal with and that just is, you know, but the things you can control, you really take ownership of. But ultimately, what I tell people is we're in the memory making business. Right. We're in the experience business. And those memories could be lots of things. It could be that giant trout. It could be that trout that was working a seam that you just worked an hour to catch, and you finally figured out the emerger that he wanted. And it's just really rewarding. And it could not be a fish at all. It could be stopping on the side and finding morels. It could just be floating through a beautiful thing and looking at the wildlife and then know, the moose and the bald eagles and. And just that detachment from their reality and connecting them with, with what I consider our reality of this natural world. But, you know, part of being a guide is you are taking people on this journey and everybody wants something different from it. And so the really great guides are malleable and they move and recognize what's going on. And one of the anecdotes I give my guides in particular always is when I was young and guiding, you know, I was cocky and I thought, you know, and I wanted to, you know, I'm. I'm competitive. I want to Win. And I had a two boat trip with the head guide. And you know, they're like, hey, we want to be at the bar, five o'. Clock. I was like, no problem. You know, I go out that day, I'm like, I'm going to kick his ass. It had nothing to do. The clients like, man, here's the head guide. I'm a tubo trip. I had a chip on my shoulder and something to prove. And I take my guys out and I fish them so hard. And we crushed it. I mean, like, the fishing was excellent. They'd caught a bunch of big fish. We show up over an hour late, you know, going to the bar, and I'm like, man, where, where, where is he? And I'm like, you know, because I was like, I know he didn't do what I did. And I get there and the he and his clients are at the bar drinking and having a great time and all hanging out. I'm like, hey, man, how was your day? He's like, oh, it was, it was fantastic. I was like, I meant, how did you catch any good fish? He's like, oh, we, we didn't go fishing. We just drove around and looked. Looked at animals and stuff. And his clients were so stoked. I turn around and my guys are walking in the bar and they're just whipped and their heads are hung low, you know, and I. It was like that real moment of awareness of, like, man, I put them through my day and I totally neglected what they wanted out of this experience. And if the only goal was to catch fish and catch big fish, then we were winning, you know, but that wasn't what they wanted. And. And I totally blew it. And I totally blew it just because of my own ego and my, my own and neglecting, you know, that I'm in the service business. I was there for these other people and it really changed my perspective in how I approach guiding and things and had a real impact for me. And, and I use that all the time.
- [18:10]
Sam
Well, the, the biggest difference there is that you realized that, right you were. Your ego wasn't so big that you didn't learn a lesson on that day. Because a lot of times you could be like, oh, you would just believe, like, oh, we crushed them. Like, they didn't. What, they didn't even go fishing that day. They didn't. You know, they just went and like, had a day like, who cares? You know, so to be able to, like, look within and be like, oh, yeah, this is. None of this is about me. Like, I'M good at what I do, I know what I'm doing. But to have that realization is the, is the shift. So it's cool that you took that lesson and went forward with it. Obviously, you know, has worked well, like, as you've gone forward, like, understanding that fact. So the one question I had, and this is, you know, obviously there's a lot of information out there about you and things you've done in the space. There's a really cool Yeti film which I drove around during the film tour when that was, like, being played and stuff. So, like, I felt like I knew more about you, like, just because of the film. But one of the things that was interesting to me, and this is, we'll get to the back half of the film. But the one thing that was interesting to me is you were a fly fishing guide, but then dipped your toes into like the finance world, like, went into the concrete jungle. How can you, can you, like, high level, just like, talk about that a little bit? Because I had a couple questions on, like, everything after it.
- [19:36]
Oliver White
Yeah, you know, talk about another transformative and pivotal moment in my life. And that was it. And it goes back to the statement I made before of I was guiding and I was excelling, but I never thought I could do it forever. And my, my intent was, hey, at some point I'm gonna go back to graduate school. That could be business school, it could be law school, but I will go back academia, segue into a more traditional career. And I, I took a guy fishing down in Argentina for a week, and he's, he ran a hedge fund in New York. He's like, you should come work for me. You know, I studied philosophy in undergrad. I had no financial background, didn't know anything. You know, we just, we fished together for a week. He was inquisitive, I was inquisitive. You know, I was loving what I was doing. It was his first time fishing. He wasn't even like an avid angler, you know, had a, had a killer week. He ended up mailing me a bunch of books to my home. And so I guided all summer in Wyoming and read these books, called him back and, and he flew me out to New York and I just stayed. And so I did, I went to work for Persian Square and Bill Amman, which is a giant hedge fund now, and, and, and Bill's in the time. And I spent two years living in the city and working really hard and way over my skis. I mean, I tell people all the time, it's not like Being thrown in the deep end. It was like being taken offshore and thrown out of the boat and figured out, you know, I, I, I mean, for months would just walk around with a legal pad, be like, I don't even know what that word means and write it down, and then stay up all night and teach myself finance, you know, in accounting and all these things. And it was, oh, you know, it was an amazing, amazing experience. It was amazing education. And I look back now and, like, it totally changed my life and empowered me to do everything I do now. Not only from, like, an understanding of how businesses operate and how, you know, how to raise money and how to do all of those things, but it was also just a recognition of how much wealth is out there and that those people are looking for opportunities to do things they're passionate about. And so, and now I can speak their language so I can go and find something exciting and go talk to people and figure out how to do things. But, like, I mean, these things are expensive. You know, I'm not a trust fund kid. My dad was in the army. My mom taught preschool. Right. Like, I mean, I find a cool thing and it's millions of dollars. I don't have it, but I have the confidence that the business is sound and makes sense and I can generate a good return and I can know how to communicate to these people to get investors to participate so that I can do what I want to do. And, and all that came from that experience. At the time, it was hard, man. I was miserable, right? Like, I mean, I was just like, you know, I mean, it was working really hard. I was in a city. I'd never even been to, New York, before taking this job. Right. I mean, I'm, you know, I had no experience and it was a really hard time in my life, you know, in the moment. The benefit of hindsight, you have a lot more perspective and, and valuing how great the exposure and experience was. And I certainly didn't realize how great it was at the time. I knew it was special, but I didn't quite know how special.
- [22:53]
Sam
Yeah, you know, like, talk about a, like a, a complete, you know, two sides of, of a coin, right? When he sends you all these books, so you're guiding fly fishing in beautiful places, floating down the river, and then at night you're reading business books, right? Like, talk about trying to wrap your head around that. Like, those two things, like, are, don't go together like, in the first place. But can you describe, like, I've only been to New York a Couple times. And I'm curious to see if your feeling when you stepped foot inside the city was the same as mine. Can you describe the feeling you had when, like, your first, like, few days, like, in a city that big?
- [23:33]
Oliver White
I. You know, to Bill's credit, he. He had one of his employees kind of play chaperone for me and. Okay. And things like that. So, you know, I wasn't just, like, thrown out to figure it out. So. You know, one of the things that, when you first get to New York is the recognition of. It's. It's kind of giant and overwhelming, and then if you break it down, the neighborhoods are very cool and very nuanced, and it's literally like you cross the street and has a different vibe. And so this woman, Alex Coffin, showed me around, and that helped a ton because she lived in the Village. It was, like, a really cool part town. I was like, all right. Yeah, man. I mean, I was 25. I was like, this is where I want to be. So then you anchor to a little, tiny few blocks that really has. Has a good feel. Then you're like, I want to live here. So then you focus your search on apartment in there. And so, like, as with all these things, man, how do you eat the elephant? It's just one bite at a time. And. And. And that's. That's the start. And so it was. That part wasn't as overwhelming as I expected. And New York again, you know, it's hard to. Hard to balance things with the. With the benefit of hindsight, but it has so much energy and so much passion. I really. Even as somebody who would never live there again and can't believe that I got through that time, everybody should go, right? Like, yeah, a little stint in New York in your 20s is worthwhile for whatever you want to do in the world. I think it's. It's just really empowering. It's great to watch people who are passionate about what they do, and, you know, they could be a pianist, they could be an artist, and they could be, you know, a finance wizard. But, like, everybody there is driven with purpose. And. And that's really, really invigorating.
- [25:11]
Sam
Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a city. Like, you can feel the energy. The. The first time I went there, we drove in, pulling a trailer. It was for a YETI event. And so that. So that was overwhelming on its own. But, like, I just remember, like, growing. I grew up on the Great Plains, right? So it is. It is flat, and I can see, you know, like, the Old joke is you can see your dog run away for three days kind of thing. And so to go somewhere where you had buildings that, like. I felt trapped, right. Like, because I didn't have anybody show me around, be like, oh, there's like, basically, like, villages within villages within villages, you know, like these little, like, communities, like, everywhere. Right. So just like, going from basically spending all my time, like, in the wild and then going to New York City, like, that was a slap in the face. But spent a few days there and I, like, I came away like, that is. That is a cool city. I don't really want to live there, but I can. I can appreciate, like, you saying, like, the importance of, like, going there for a while and, like, just figuring it all out just to. Just to see the differences, like, between that and, like, where you might come from.
- [26:18]
Oliver White
No, well, you know, New York is wild. It's just a different type of law, and you just have to figure those things out. But I mean, that. I can remember taking my sleeping bag and going and sleeping on the roof of my building just. Just to try to get a little closer to. To my normal life. And. Yeah, and I. Yeah, I mean, I struggle with that a lot there, for sure. I know that. I mean, you do feel trapped. It's. It's different.
- [26:42]
Sam
Yeah. And then the other thing I. You dove into the. You answered the question I was going to ask, but just like, the education that you came away with in a, you know, a relatively short time in your life, right? Just a couple of years of understanding, like, business and how to look at businesses and actually figure out, like, okay, this can be profitable. This will be profitable if run the right way. You know, being able to look at, like, a company's books and being like, well, you know, like, we can. We can make this work. Having that understanding about that stuff. Like, I, you know, you said it was incredibly difficult at the time, like, being thrown off the boat out in the middle of the ocean. But, man, what a. What a cool, like, trial by fire, like, forged by fire moment to be able to go forward and then continue to chase down, like, what actually makes you passionate. Like, because going from there and then going and starting a lodge from scratch like that, you know, that kind of stuff doesn't come without, you know, having, like, growing that confidence from that education. So, yeah, it's a pretty. That's like, I look at that, and I didn't have, like, that quite that type of thing. I went to school for business, got a master's in business or whatever, so I had some hard classes, but I. It was not quite the. The New York Wall street approach. But I think there's a lot of people that don't educate them, like, even educate themselves about business and. And then want to start a business and really struggle, because they never had that and never had the drive or at least getting thrown into the deep end to, like, have to figure it out. So it's. It's cool to watch, or cool to know that backstory from, like, a little deeper side.
- [28:21]
Oliver White
I mean, there's. There's so much embedded in there. So, yeah, a hundred percent. You. The education I got in those couple years, if that was available for sale, you could charge a fortune for it, right? I mean, like, it's. It's. It was unbelievable just to be in the room with the people, you know, the masters of the universe, and just to be there and watch how they transact and how they think and. And all of those things, it's. It's remarkable, the network that came from it, all of it. And in my case, it also very much crystallized. That's not what I want to do. Right? I mean, like, when I. When my two years was up, I mean, he was like, hey, I could keep doing this, and I could probably do really well and make a lot of money, but, you know, when, you know, I'm 46 now, but I'd be like, you know, at this time in my life, it would be, you know, that's when you retire from those businesses. And I watch time and time again as a fishing guide, and in the financial space, people get to be, you know, 45, 50, and they're checking out of that career, and then they're trying to figure out who they are and. And because they've committed their whole life to this singular pursuit and certainly from an intellectual aptitude, for me to compete on that level, man, that was the only thing I could do. Right? There was no room for anything else. Like, I had to be all in. And. And I recognized. I was like, hey, I would. I would rather make less money and. And live. And. And so I wanted to be outside. I wanted to be in fishing, and I wanted to do more than just be a fishing guide. And so, I mean, that. That was the man. When I was leaving New York, it was a calculated. How do I create the life that I want to be able to do the things that I want? And I did. You know, I left New York, I was. I looked at every fishing business I could find for sale. I mean, I was looking to do that. When I, when I backing up a little bit after those two years, the guy I worked for was pushing me to go to business school. And so I wrote my application to go to business school. And that was the moment of introspection and, and kind of crystallized and solidifying that that's not what I wanted. And I went back to Bill and told him that and, and he said, okay, you go find what you want to do and I'll, I'll be your investor. I'll backstop your deal. So, like, I had the golden ticket and I was just looking for anything for sale. And really, unfortunately, still I think it's probably true. But, you know, most of these are terrible businesses. I mean, the most of the people that participate in this, man, it is a labor of love. And you know, they want to sell them at this huge glamour valuation because people want to be in the space, but the underlying business, they might do something cool, but like they don't actually, you know, function as a business all that well. And I really couldn't find anything. And the turning point was at that time in my life, I was still reading the Wall Street Journal cover to cover, and Bristol Bay Lodge was for sale. And it was like, you know, printed ad in the Wall Street Journal and called and did the whole analysis on that. And I was like, man, this is a really interesting business and has all the other things I wanted the adventure and the, all of that. But you are in Alaska, you're open 100 days. And the big, the breaking point for me is like, you own these airplanes and really you're in the airplane owning business. And I didn't want to do that. But that started a frame of thought and reference. I was like, man, if I could own a fishing lodge, be open for more than 100 days, not have to own airplanes. And where I landed was in the Bahamas and I bought a piece of land there. And the idea was as simple as I'm going to build this really cool hotel, this beachfront property in the Bahamas. I'm going to build a fishing lodge. If the whole thing blows up, it never goes to zero. I still own a beachfront hotel. Somebody's going to want that. And I think I can make the fishing lodge work. I only had to own a couple acres, and then you're fishing the ocean. And so that was the analysis. And so I, I mean, I went from New York. I actually came back to Jackson for the summer as all the deal was closing. And I did a little bit of guiding that summer and Then I went from Jackson straight to the Bahamas and you know, and, and full on managing construction. I mean it was a greenfield. It wasn't buying into a lodge and making it better. It was a vision that here's an underserved area with a great fishery and, and created it. And it was, you know, talk about working hard, man, that was, that was a crazy time in my life of just an all in like a, you know, one man band. I mean from dealing with the government to deal with permitting to dealing with contractors to, you know, at every level you just engaged in touching everything. I mean it was another great, great education and also very hard. So.
- [32:52]
Sam
Yeah, yeah. Was that like when you're, I mean, you're working in a different country? Like, was there bribes involved? He's like, how, like how much of this was like grease and palms to make sure you got the permit to do this, to build this? Or was it pretty straightforward? Like you just had to jump, like jump through those hoops to make it happen?
- [33:08]
Oliver White
Yeah. I think one of the things that ultimately made me really successful in the Bahamas is recognizing the cultural nuance that is not americ. So one of the challenges would be, and the comp I'll give would be like a Mexico. Like Mexico is openly corrupt. You're like, I want this, like, well you better go pay Juan 200 and he'll get it done. The Bahamas pretends to function in legitimacy, right. But underlying, like if you just count on the system, it might go through, it just will go through very slowly. And, and, and so the relationships is it might not even be like a monetary like bribe in that sense. It is really just getting to know people. And so one of the things would be, you know, I was trying to get a building permit and like whatever, they meet once a month and there's like, oh, nobody showed up to the meeting. Oh, three people showed up. That's not my first forum. And as next month and you're just sitting here waiting in limbo. And I remember finally, like, who is on this thing? Right? Like, who are these people? And then I went and found them and said, hey, can you show up to this meeting? Like, I'm trying to do these things, I'm trying to hire these people. And, and like the job creation and being part of the community makes a huge difference. But like, as another example, you know, my wife is a Bahamian. I met her there. We went on one of our very first dates and I'm driving and she's like, Is that a P.O. box key? I was like, yeah. She's like, you have a P.O. box. You know, I've been on the island for a few months. I was like, yeah. She's like, how did you get a P.O. box? I was like, well, I went to the post office. I was like, hey, I'd like to get a P.O. box because I just moved here and I'm going to start this business. And the lady laughed at me. She's like, there's a 10 year wait for the post P.O. box. And I just assumed that wasn't true. Right. I just, I was like, really? I was like, because, like, I'm going to have this business, I'm going to get mail and bills. I was like, what am I supposed to do? And she's like, well, my church is doing whatever. You know, she gave me the stores. Like, that sounds great. I'd like to support that. And so I gave her 100 bucks for a church. And then I magically had a P.O. box. And, and my wife's like, yeah, I've been on that waiting list for seven years. It is a ten year wait. And so, but it was just kind of reading the room. I was like, and also just not, not taking no for an answer and kind of always believing there's a solution at hand and you kind of, kind of have to navigate the tea leaves a little bit.
- [35:23]
Sam
Yeah, for sure. But like, you know, it sounds like kind of ingraining yourself within the culture, right? Like, not just, you're not just going there to start a business. You know, like, you're, you're, you're creating something for the community as well. Like, and I'm assuming that's why, like why it helped or why you raised TV going. Because if you're just going there to try to like slap up part of America like in somewhere that's not, that's, that's a tough road to hoe, but like to involve the community around it and you know, you're hiring people and like becoming friends with people. I mean, you're getting married to people. Like, you know, to have that community, I would imagine, like really helped kind of push it all through the way you wanted it to go. You, that whole thing was not without some hardship. That building, that lodge and, and we talked like, we won't dive into the full story, but can you give people a quick rundown and then point people where I can like, see like the real breakdown of what happened to you down there? Because it's wild.
- [36:19]
Oliver White
Yeah, yeah, it is all crazy. But backing up the cultural part is Very real. Right? I mean, one of the things is if you take the approach to go in and you'll be a conqueror or just make it like home, you're going to lose. And so having done a lot of these projects all over, one of the real keys is you were showing up somewhere because there's magic there. So you want to embrace the magic and you want to work within those parameters and you want to be part of the community and you want to learn the culture and you want to share it to all the guests. And like, that approach alone, when it's done with sincerity, makes all the difference in the world. And so, like, fundamentally, I do think that that is the key and to all of it. And I mean, that could be the key regionally within the United States. I mean, the, you know, the keys, for example, are notorious for hating outsiders, but there's a few people that go in there and. And move there and do really well in the fishing space, specifically. Right. Like, I mean, yeah, and why? Because, hey, they understand that you have to play weather rules. You need to respect the people there before you and you become part of the community. And that's why few people get shepherded in and the rest kind of get kicked out. Right, you either. And. And it's. There's no playbook. Right. You gotta. You gotta really, really kind of have that little nuance and. And for sure, you know, the. I have a book of challenges and war stories from being in the Bahamas for all these years, and it was magical, but. And a lot of it becomes pretty entertaining. But certainly in the construction part, and early on, man, you know, had had another kind of pivotal moment of life. And then I, you know, I was living on site, doing the construction and, you know, had kind of a brief abduction kind of kidnapping experience. And. And it almost blew up the whole thing. Right. You know, I mean, I was living on site and I was there, and it was the weekend. I'm on a huge timeline, deadline to get this thing done in time for opening, and this guy wanders in and it was a really, we just interaction and. And, you know, the downside of. Of kind of this open approach is that my guard wasn't where it needed to be. And like, that part of me has been changed from this experience. And, you know, my phone rang and I just take the call and I'm dealing, dealing with the work component of that. And I turn around, the guy has a machete at my neck. He's like, you know, you don't understand. I need. I need some Money right now. And, you know, he was a Haitian bahamian, young. You know, just a lack of awareness. You know, he saw this construction project and a white foreigner there, and he just assumed there's a safe full of money, and there wasn't. And, you know, so I end up tied up to my porch, and he's rammaging through my house looking for, like, this hidden stash of cash. And, like, I literally remember, man, I'm, like, tied up to the railing on the. On the deck, and, like, I'm. This guy's going through the house. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. I was like, this is like, I don't have time for this. This is so annoying. Right? This is like, what is going on? You know, I'm. I. Even at that moment, I wasn't even that concerned. I was just like, oh, man, come on. I was like, I got things to do. Like, just one more hurdle. Yeah.
- [39:29]
Sam
Just.
- [39:30]
Oliver White
And, you know, and then the guy comes out, and he's just. You know, he's livid that there's no. There's no goodies there for him. And he roughed me up a little bit. And then I end up in. Tied up in the back of the car. And it really goes downhill from there quickly and ultimately kind of talk my way out of it. I mean, I. You know, I convinced the guy to go to the ATM that same night to go get some cash and. And was able to escape. And. And. And I do recount the whole thing in detail for this film for yeti called a thousand casts. It's. It's way better for that. A few drinks if we're gonna. We're gonna do those stories. So you go find it. Find it online and get the whole thing. But. But, you know, so here I am, and I'm, you know, I don't know, man, five or six months into this, I have my entire life savings invested. I have, you know, a million dollars, you know, from the guy worked for in New york, invested. And, like. And it all blew up. And I mean. I mean, I go back home to north Carolina. I'm like, man, what do I do? I was like, man, like, you know, where am I in this? And, I mean, another great testament to how great of a person Bill ackman is. As I remember calling him. And after this happened and telling him, and he's like, well, just walk away. I was like, bill, you know, I mean, you gave me over a million dollars, and I have all. Everything I own is invested. He's like, we'll figure that part out. We'll go do another one. It's not worth it. Just walk away. And I really thought that's what I was going to do. And, you know, while I was at home and reset and, you know, other things. A former fishing client reached out. He had heard what happened. He was having lunch with. With another guy and he. He from Argentina call. He's like, hey, I'd like to give you a dog. He's like, you know, you know, we had. We had a kidnapping thing happen within our family as a wealthy family in Argentina. He's like, so we now all have these trained German shepherds, and we have our own training facility and everything. He's like, I'd like to give you one. And I was still pretty rattled at that stage. So I flew down to Argentina and I trained and they gifted me this beautiful dialed, like, machine of a German shepherd. And I. I brought that back home. And, you know, that, that offered a new level of comfort. And I remember calling Bill back, okay, I'm gonna go back to the Bahamas. I think I, you know, I believe in the project. I do think that this was an anomaly, and I think it's gonna be okay. And I went back and finished and. And pushed it. Pushed it over the finish line and stayed for a long time.
- [41:58]
Sam
Yeah. I mean, and thank God, like, you know, like, it would. It would be really hard to get the confidence back to, like, want to go do that, but, like, one, to have Bill behind you where it's like, just walk away. Like, to give you the opportunity to walk away and not feel like you're, like, beholden, you know, you're not stuck to this thing just because, like, because if you hadn't taken maybe a little time to, like, go do all that stuff and, like, get a fresh perspective on it, like, maybe you don't go back and it would be. It would be hard to just trying to, like, you'd feel like you're always on edge, you know, thinking it's going to happen again and again and again. So. And that. So how long have. How long has that lodge been open now?
- [42:38]
Oliver White
Yeah, so we opened in 2009 and it was called Abigail Lodge.
- [42:43]
Sam
Yeah.
- [42:44]
Oliver White
It was totally destroyed in Hurricane Dorian in 2019. I exited the business, you know, shortly thereafter. You know, it's funny, like, I would tell you, my life's great and it's amazing. And then, like, here's challenge after challenge. Like, I mean, man, the whole thing got wiped off the map and went to zero. I mean, like foundations, only the caretaker was killed in the storm at the property. I mean it was brutal. I mean it was just. The whole island was devastated, man. And that was a rid. Another just really, really hard thing. Raised a ton of money, got a ton of support to support the staff, support the community and you know, and it was really kind of heartbreaking to me of how that was received and, and things like that and, and I just didn't have an inmate to do it another time. So, you know, I exited and that was when I kind of made a kind of full circle and came back to the western United States and, and we bought South Fork Lodge in Swan Valley, Idaho, about an Jackson in 2020. And so that was a moment for me to kind of shift gears and honestly, like a lot of life, man, just kind of full circle. I mean, I live in Wilson, Wyoming, which is where I lived when I was 22 years old as a fishing guide. And that was, it was kind of always a goal to get back there and it feels really good.
- [44:08]
Sam
Funny how life has a way of kind of looping you back to some of that stuff just in a way. Yeah. So talk about, talk about the lodge now. Like what's like, I know obviously a lot of people working for you for the lodge, but like what all does that entail?
- [44:25]
Oliver White
Yeah. So South Fork Lodge, you know, we bought in 2020 and it was a beautiful property. It had never been run very well and, and it was just kind of a magic alignment of opportunity. Funny enough, it'd been for sale for years and they finally, the, the price kept coming down and you know, I look at deals all the time and so I'd always been watching it and then they finally said, hey, we're taking offers. So I independently just like signed the NDA, did all the work, made a cash offer. I did not have the money. I just like, if they say this goes back to like the pre finance stuff and I say, hey man, if they say yes to this, that'll be a home run. I can make it work. They of course did not say yes. They countered like, hey man, you're not, you're not in the ballpark. It needs to be here. But that, that kind of showed me from where the ask was to my offer to where the settlement was going to be. So then I went back and redid all my work and I was like, man, at that price, I don't, I, you know, it's just on the bubble. I'm just not sure. I don't think it's going to sell. I think things will come down a little bit. And. And then a few months later, Jimmy Kimmel, who I had been taking fishing for years, you know, just said he fished with me in the Bahamas, and I'd set him up on a bunch of trips, which I do for a few people. He had found it, and so totally, like, I. He wasn't on the list of people I would have called for money. He had never expressed that he wanted to own a fishing lodge. He was, you know, and so. But he found. He's like, hey, this looks really cool. What do you think? I was like, I've already done all the work. I was like, here's what I think, and here's what they told me they would take. And he was like, let's go check it out. So I booked him a trip, and we went to south fork to go, you know, as guests, you know, with no one. No one knowing him. And a bunch of buddies. I mean, it was him and Huey Lewis and. And, you know, David Chang and all these great people that are really famous that he fishes with all the time. None of his buddies knew that he was looking at it, Just me. And so we're all there having a good time and fishing, and he's like, man, if you'll do this with me, I'll do. I'll do it. And so I went back and, you know, always try to keep him out of. Out of all of it. But at that time, certainly didn't want them to know he was involved. So I go back, having already, you know, negotiated once and was able to get the deal over the finish line. And that was like, pre Covid. We still haven't closed on the deal. And then covet happens. I mean, they actually. You couldn't even buy a fishing license in Idaho. We're trying to close on a fishing lodge. They've. They banned the sale of fishing license. It was like this hugely complicated deal. And at the same time. And I still owned the one in the Bahamas had been destroyed, but I owned a second one of the Bahamas by this point, you know, and I still own those. And I remember call calling Jimmy. I was like, jimmy, this is terrifying. I was like, I just had to evacuate my staff, literally walk away, lock the doors, and hope for the best. It's like everybody wants their money back. I was like, man, I am really scared. I think we should walk away from this deal. I was like, we have an out, right? We should take it. And to Jimmy's credit, he's like, I think it's gonna be okay. He's like, I, I. He's like, I still want to do it. I was like. I was like, jimmy, man, we're gonna lose money. I was like, you, you have to be able to cover this for three years. Like, who knows what's going to happen? He was like. He's like, I got it. I was like, all right, man. Well, then at the very least, we should go back and renegotiate. I was like, we. I was like, I can promise you those guys are thinking this is going to blow up, and they're terrified. And Jimmy, he's like, all right, I trust you. He's like, I don't want to lose it. I was like, okay. So I hang up the phone with him and I call these people back. I was like, hey, we're out world scary. We're undo the deal, send the paperwork over. I'm done. And hang up the phone, phone. And. And then they call back, like, hey, what can we do? And, you know, ultimately took like a 10 haircut on the whole thing, got the deal done. And, you know, and it seemed very fortuitous. I mean, I wish it was. I wish I would have knew it. But, like, I mean, we basically got in at the floor and then Covid created this boom. And, you know, we, we, we. We get a huge kind of tailwind from a. From a macroeconomic standpoint. We've done a ton of work. We hard on the hospitality. We have a great culinary program, and then really working and have established an incredible culture from the guides and all the staff. And so, you know, I. I would argue the experience is pretty unparalleled in the lower 48 for what that total experience looks like. And we put a lot of energy into it. And that is really a pretty, Pretty amazing place.
- [48:53]
Sam
Oh, man, that's. That's awesome. I was. One of the questions I had was that that deal happening before or post Covid, Because. Right, right. And that's. I mean, pretty, like, like you said pretty wild to, like, be working on that, right. As all that came to a head, because there wasn't. That was. I mean, a while there that everything looked pretty scary. But then, like, the. No, the amount of people that just went out and recreated after that whole thing exploded, like, couldn't have been better timing for, you know, getting into that space or continuing in that space for
- [49:29]
Oliver White
as scary as of the moment to look back now. It was just in Idaho. Just act like nothing happened. Right. I mean, you could. No one wore a mask. You know, we Were outside. We had dinner outside. You're fishing. I mean, it was just like, hey, you can come here and be normal. And there was so much demand from that. And I think, yeah, a couple things still are present today. There is a much greater appreciation for outdoor recreation, you know, well, beyond fishing. Like, Covid helped teach people how important that is, and that demand across all disciplines is. Remained really, really high. And I don't think that's ever going to change. And then the other is just the value of that free time and the experience, and people are. They're taking their vacation now, they're doing those things, and. And I think there's a much greater appreciation and recognition of how valuable that is in people's lives.
- [50:22]
Sam
Yeah, a lot of people quit putting it off, like, for years and years and years and are just spending the money, taking the trips, you know, doing the things that they've had on the list forever.
- [50:31]
Oliver White
Take the trip. It's something else. There's so much value. Take the trip, and the minute you finish, get another one on the books, man. Having one on the calendar to look forward to creates a whole different dynamic as you're going to work and knowing that, hey, just a little bit, and I get to go do something I really, really love.
- [50:50]
Sam
Yeah, yeah. Can you. I wanted to talk about conservation and. And stuff you're doing in the conservation world kind of in a creative way. Can you dive into that for us?
- [51:01]
Oliver White
Yeah, I mean, my view of conservation is you gotta fight the good fight. You're not always gonna win, but you still gotta fight the good fight. And you have to protect what you love and you have. And if you enjoy or value the things that I do that, I also think you have an obligation to give back. And you can do that in lots of ways, man. You can donate your time, you can donate your money, but, you know, you do need to fundamentally go and support these things. And it's really hard in that. I also believe that, you know, when I'm an old man, these are the good old days, right? We're living in the good old days. And so you have to embrace that. Things are really great, but you also really want to think ahead and try to keep them great and in the opportunities to improve them, what you can do. And I think conservation goes hand in hand with that. So I work with tons of organizations in very different. You know, the caf is for a clean waters guy. They do incredible work out here. We have the South Fork initiative, you know, which does great work for the South Fork. You know, I Have a lunch with Tu later today, right? I mean it, you know, all of these guys are doing really, really great work and, and it can be regionally specific. Something that I do personally that I'm really, really passionate about is I co founded a nonprofit called Indy Fly with the idea that I had the skill set of building and creating fishing lodges. Indigenous people all over the world typically have this great underlying asset of their other land and their, and their, and their fishing. And often what they do will just sell the rights. You write well, and they could be selling the rights for somebody to fish, but they'd also be selling the rights for some extractive industry. Right. You can sell the LOC logging rights to the Chinese.
- [52:43]
Sam
Right.
- [52:43]
Oliver White
So gold mining rights. And they get paid once it's destructive. And Indie Fly's view is, hey, if we can create a viable fishing economy, you know, on this resource that these indigenous people own, you know, if we are putting money in their pocket, food in their bellies, then they will become conservationists. And so our first project was down in Guyana in this village called Rewa. It's a village of 300 people. If, if IndyFi did nothing else like the impact we had in Rewa for multi generations was totally worth all the effort, all the money we raised and everything. I mean, you're talking a village of 300 people, 400 square miles of rainforest. And the year before we got involved, the village made $750. And now you're talking like they're getting a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in revenue from fly fishing trips. You know, 80% of the village is employed by the Eco lodge, which is owned by the community. So you have job creation, you have profit from the actual business that gets redeployed to the village. They now have satellite Internet, they have dental care, they have medical care. You know, they built a church, they've been a cafeteria. The schools improve, the water systems improved. I mean it is unbelievable the impact from a catch and release fly fishing operation. And it's one of my kind of favorite little fashion things that I do.
- [54:05]
Sam
Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, I was reading just kind of like the, the website blurb about Indie Fly that you have on your website and how it's a low impact way to like bring conservation to that region or space or, or whatever. And I really like that because the, a lot of times conservation isn't sexy, right? Like, you know, if you look at conservation organizations and the way it's done and how the money flows and stuff, like most time it's not that fun most times. Not sexy. It's not easy. Like you said, you know, you fight the good fight. A lot of times you don't win. But I think what you're doing is you're finding a creative way to like instill conservation into the community. And I think that's what is more needed in that conservation space. Like the, this is not a slight to any conservation organization. But like when original organizations came up, there was the kind of like you had this set of rules, right? You know, you have membership base, you do banquets, you raise money, you raffle stuff off. You know, there's, there's kind of like this. And that all needs to be happening, right? That's community, that's bringing people, like minded people together to talk about ideas. But if you can also instill stuff like indie fly and you have these different creative ways to do the same thing, then I think that adds just so much more value like to the landscape. So that, that you know, type stuff like that needs to happen both you know, in the fishing world and the hunting world and just general outdoor recreation more often where people think outside the box when it comes to raising money and helping communities. So good on you.
- [55:39]
Oliver White
Well, you know, to kind of follow that up man. In these remote indigenous communities, conservation is preachy. You can't be a conservationist if you're struggling to eat, right? You can't tell people to let the fish go if they don't have enough food, right? It doesn't make any sense. And so you know, when they benefit economically, then they can choose. They can choose. You don't have to tell them. They've, they figure it out on their own, right? And now you have a belief system, right? And that can last, that's sustainable, right? That's going to last forever. And the example I use all the time because I cannot think, I mean it's such a good example. It's, it's, it almost feels made up. But this is a hundred percent true story. So in Guyana we're catching air Pima, which are giant fish, right? I mean they're 100, 300 pounds. You know, they can be six, seven feet long. And they're also really good to eat. And you know, that's why they've been kind of wiped out everywhere. And so in Rewa they protect these fish is also so it's a rainforest. And so we go and fish in the dry season, in the rainy season, the river will come up 40ft, it floods into the jungle, all the fish move into the Jungle and they spawn and they feed. And then as the river recedes, it creates these little kind of landlocked little lagoons and ponds and oxbows. The Arapaima choose to stay back in those. We had a couple years of really big drought where the furthest ponds were not getting that refresh of water from the annual kind of rainy season event. And so the very furthest pond, you know, is, you know, a mile from the river and there are 21 Arapaima, I believe in that. In that pond, the village mobilized 30 men. They go and they go and they, you know, it's an hour boat ride, then a hike a mile and they would net an airplane one at a time, put it in a canoe, fill the canoe with water and drag it a mile and dump it in the river and come back and get the next one and do it again and again and again. And you know, the very first day, if my memory is right, they, they saved 18 of the fish. They went back the last day to get the last three. Their backs were, had been out of the water and all three have been eaten by jaguars and crazy. It would have been five years before that, without blinking an eye, they would have gone to that pond, killed every single fish, sold the meat for pennies and moved on and just wrote it off as life. And like here, like now, they had enough anglers coming and the community benefited enough that they go and make this massive effort of mobilization so that these fish might live, so they might have a chance to catch them again. And you know, what an incredible community driven conservation effort unlike anything I've ever seen. And you could have preached them all to your blue in the face 10 years prior to that and they would have just said, these people are crazy.
- [58:30]
Sam
Not a chance you'd ever talk them into that if, if there wasn't, you know, if it wasn't seen as a renewable resource and like something that can continue to get back to the community. That's, man, that's, that is incredible.
- [58:40]
Oliver White
But the thing is you don't even have to, you don't have to make that connection, you know. Right. You work on the rest and the conservation comes naturally. So I mean you, you don't go with, hey, we're going to help you this fishing lodge so that you become conservationists. You're like, hey, we're going to help you guys, we're going to do this and here's how we're going to do it. And then you execute and execute and do it. And then they're like, this, we, we need to protect this. We need to save this. And so right now, Rewa has an application and to double their tribal lands, you know, to go from there, 400 square miles, you know, to twice as big. And so, you know, outside of protecting the fish in that, you know, the one thing that any fly asked is they don't do anything extractive. So now you have this giant swath of rainforest with no logging, no gold mining, no bauxite mining, and the whole community support it.
- [59:28]
Sam
Oh, man, that is really cool. I mean, what a. Or just what a cool thing to be a part of and, and be able to tell that story, like, because, like, who knows, like, somebody listening to this is like, oh, I could, you know, replicate that in this spot or, you know, I can do, you know, like, just to inspire people to go actually, like, take action on stuff like that is.
- [59:47]
Oliver White
And so we have a few others in French Polynesia on an atoll called Anna. You got a similar story. We're doing one right now close to home on the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming. We did a community project in Lesotho in Africa. And so we're always looking for new ones. We're always looking for donations, we're always looking for volunteers. So indifly.org send us a note. We're in.
- [60:10]
Sam
Sweet. Yeah, I'm trying, like, you know, obviously I, you know, I've always got to hang out and drink some bourbon at some point so we can catch up more on all this stuff. But where can Pete, like, you know, we'll, we'll wrap this up. I've taken up an hour of your time, but, like, where can people just follow along and be part of all this? Obviously you gave Indie Fly. Go donate there. But, like, where else can people follow along and see what, what you're up to?
- [60:34]
Oliver White
Ultimately, I think Instagram is the ticket for, for, for my generation, so for South Fork Lodge or myself, very easy to find. But Instagram's a good, good window, you know, Please come visit and.
- [60:47]
Sam
Yeah. Well, Oliver, thank you for being who you are. Thanks for hopping on today and, and talking through kind of like your life in this space. I really appreciate you just sharing that whole thing.
- [60:58]
Oliver White
Yeah, man, absolutely. Good to see you, Sam. Anytime.
- [61:02]
Sam
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