Episode 2 - Wild Lands, Wild Minds: An Arctic Conversation with Ryan Callaghan

Summary

Legends of the Wild: Episode 2 – Wild Lands, Wild Minds: An Arctic Conversation with Ryan Callaghan

In the second episode of Legends of the Wild, host Sam Soholt engages in a profound conversation with Ryan Callaghan, a dedicated backcountry hunter, angler, and conservation advocate. Titled "Wild Lands, Wild Minds: An Arctic Conversation with Ryan Callaghan," this episode delves deep into the experiences, challenges, and pressing conservation issues facing America's most remote wilderness areas.

1. Journey into the Arctic

The episode kicks off with Ryan recounting his arduous Arctic expedition, highlighting the unpredictable weather conditions and the physical demands of backcountry travel.

Ryan Callaghan [02:30]:
"I wore my flip flops 90% of the time. I was so sick that I had no idea what I packed. Literally just had my extra t-shirts and flip flops."

Despite the discomfort, Ryan emphasizes the transformative power of such expeditions.

Sam Soholt [07:20]:
"Man, that's incredible."

2. The Arctic National Wildlife Refuge: A Battleground for Conservation

A central theme of the conversation revolves around the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) and the looming threats it faces from proposed development projects. Ryan discusses how the unique logistics of accessing ANWR provide a temporary carve-out from stricter domestic travel regulations.

Ryan Callaghan [03:01]:
"You can do a five-day trip. And the whole backcountry hunters and anglers are involved with this other group trying to get elected officials and their staff up to places like the Boundary Waters, Oak Flat Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Just to say, like, you guys are going to vote on something that will alter this landscape forever."

He passionately argues that firsthand experience is crucial for legislators to make informed decisions.

Ryan Callaghan [03:40]:
"You should experience these places before you go and make a decision that affects not only you but like the entire country and future generations."

3. The Personal and Societal Impact of Losing Public Lands

Ryan shares personal anecdotes about how access to wild lands has been vital not only for recreational purposes but also for mental health and societal well-being. He illustrates the deep connection many individuals have with these landscapes and the potential consequences of their loss.

Ryan Callaghan [69:56]:
"And if that river access goes away, he kills himself."

This heartfelt revelation underscores the urgent need to protect these natural sanctuaries.

4. Advocacy Strategies: Building Coalitions and Engaging Politicians

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on effective advocacy methods to combat threats to public lands. Ryan and Sam explore grassroots strategies, such as forming coalitions, leveraging social media platforms, and directly engaging with lawmakers to amplify their voices.

Ryan Callaghan [53:53]:
"But how do we, how do we come together, you know, as a community across all public land users? Like, and how do we rally that as a coalition to create legislation where it's like this can't be passed in law to get rid of these lands."

They highlight the importance of persistence and professional communication when lobbying for conservation issues.

Ryan Callaghan [72:05]:
"Be professional, be concise. You don't have to go on and on about how passionate you are about it. They'll... they're gonna get it. But just making your voice heard is, you know, making a huge difference."

5. The Role of Social Media and Influencers

The conversation also touches upon the transformative role of social media in modern advocacy. Ryan acknowledges both the benefits and challenges, such as the spread of misinformation, but ultimately advocates for its potential to mobilize and educate a broader audience.

Ryan Callaghan [57:37]:
"Do you think it has helped or do you think it is hurt in any way? Where there's like, misinformation out there? I mean, there's certainly that, but I feel like in my eyes, it seems like it has been an easy way for people to actually get involved where they don't feel. They don't feel a lot of risk, I guess, behind it. And they feel like they can speak up and make their voice heard because they have a platform."

6. Emotional Stories: Veterans and the Sanctity of Nature

A poignant moment in the episode features stories from veterans who rely on access to wild lands for solace and healing. Ryan shares a moving account of a veteran whose connection to a river spot is so profound that the potential loss of access threatens his mental health.

Ryan Callaghan [69:56]:
"He kills himself... this is where I'm good."

Such narratives emphasize the profound personal connections individuals have with these environments, reinforcing the critical need for their preservation.

7. A Call to Action: Protecting the Wild for Future Generations

As the conversation draws to a close, Ryan and Sam underscore the urgency of current conservation efforts. They advocate for proactive engagement, continuous advocacy, and the empowerment of individuals to safeguard public lands against impending threats.

Ryan Callaghan [54:21]:
"We have a lot of unity across user groups and just a good old fashioned American citizens in the US right now that have public lands front and center."

Ryan Callaghan [57:00]:
"The disconnect between those people and the landscapes they're making decisions about is so far apart that it would be hard from their standpoint. It would be hard to see, like, oh, this is all connected, this entire corridor. Like, if you mess with something here, you mess up the entire chain."

Conclusion

Episode 2 of Legends of the Wild offers an insightful exploration into the intricate relationship between humans and wild landscapes. Through Ryan Callaghan's experiences and passionate advocacy, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the vital importance of preserving America's Arctic regions. The episode serves as both an educational resource and a rallying cry for conservationists and outdoor enthusiasts alike to take meaningful action in protecting these pristine environments for generations to come.

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Callaghan [02:30]:
  "I wore my flip flops 90% of the time. I was so sick that I had no idea what I packed."

• Ryan Callaghan [03:01]:
  "You can do a five-day trip. And the whole backcountry hunters and anglers are involved with this other group trying to get elected officials and their staff up to places like the Boundary Waters, Oak Flat Arctic National Wildlife Refuge."

• Ryan Callaghan [03:40]:
  "You should experience these places before you go and make a decision that affects not only you but like the entire country and future generations."

• Ryan Callaghan [69:56]:
  "And if that river access goes away, he kills himself."

• Ryan Callaghan [53:53]:
  "How do we, how do we come together, you know, as a community across all public land users?"

• Ryan Callaghan [72:05]:
  "Be professional, be concise. You don't have to go on and on about how passionate you are about it."

This episode not only sheds light on the physical and emotional landscapes of the Arctic but also galvanizes listeners to engage in the fight to preserve these invaluable wild areas.

Transcript

[Cal]

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[Sam Soholt]

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[Cal]

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[Sam Soholt]

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[Cal]

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[Sam Soholt]

Welcome to Legends of the Wild, the podcast where we chase the stories that live beyond the trailhead and bring the wildest tales from the backcountry straight to your ears. I'm Sam Soholt, hunter, conservationist, and a guy who believes best moments happen where the map runs out. Each week, I'll sit down with legendary outdoorsmen and women musicians, athletes, and everyday folks who've lived incredible stories in wild places. From epic hunts and big wins to close calls and quiet moments under the stars, these are the stories that keep us heading deeper into the wild and remind us why we fight to protect it. This is Legends of the Wild, presented by Field and Stream. Let's get into it.

[Cal]

There were all these, like, updated weather reports, right? And when we got up to camp, they're like, oh, did you, like, didn't you bring this? Didn't you bring this? And I was like, gang, I was so sick when I did this. I have no clue what's in this bag.

[Sam Soholt]

Like, I think I got the most of it, right?

[Cal]

I'm like. Like, the only thing I can promise you is I'm not gonna complain.

[Sam Soholt]

Right? Yeah, I just like the. Watching some of Kenyon's videos of him, like, talking. I was like, all the bugs, Like, I've been in that stuff. And it's like you forget when you're in it, it's like, man, that's a lot of mosquitoes. And then when you're home, you kind of forget about that part of it, at least eventually. Yeah.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

But, yeah, well, that's cool.

[Cal]

And we got so lucky, too. Like, so the group that that we were with. They're running. Cause this is set up again to be on, like, congressional ethics timelines.

[Sam Soholt]

Okay.

[Cal]

So you can't. You can't go on a trip that somebody pays for longer than three days if it's domestic.

[Sam Soholt]

Sure.

[Cal]

But there's a carve out for Arctic National Wildlife Refuge because of the logistics that it takes to get up there.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

So you can do a five day trip. Okay. And the whole backcountry hunters and anglers is involved with this other group that their whole thing is like, trying to get elected officials and their staff up to places like the Boundary Waters, Oak Flat Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Just to say, like, you guys are going to vote on something that will alter this landscape forever.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Don't you think you should see it first?

[Sam Soholt]

Exactly.

[Cal]

Right.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. You should experience these places before you go and make a decision that affects not only you, but like the entire country and future generations.

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. It's the sandlot. Right. Forever, right? Forever.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And I mean, that's what it is, man. It is so, so crazy to think. So our group and then the. This Arctic guide outfit, they're like, short trip is seven days.

[Sam Soholt]

Okay.

[Cal]

And so they're doing these augmented versions. So they're running these two trips back to back, two different groups. But we like, leapfrog kind of.

[Sam Soholt]

Okay.

[Cal]

And our group would land, the mosquitoes would, like, gradually increase, and then that poor second group that came in would just be like inhaling mosquitoes. Right.

[Sam Soholt]

Because all of them have just found the group.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

Or just there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cal]

And honestly, like, our second camp was at like the gates of the Arctic Plain. So if you walked like two miles north of camp, the mountains would part and you're on that. That huge muskeg playing out to the Arctic Ocean. And you got like Arctic breeze off the pack ice.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And no mosquitoes.

[Sam Soholt]

Oh, nice.

[Cal]

And it was. I mean, it was. I wore my flip flops 90% of the time. And like I said, like, I was so sick, I had no idea what I packed. And literally just had my extra toughs and flip flops.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And the guide, Kyle, was like, well, he had this pair of approach shoes, like scarpa approach shoes. You know, it's like slick bottom, uh, but really tacky. And he's like, how big are your feet? He's like, I got an extra pair of boots. And. And I was like, okay, great. You know, and they're just like these flat as a pancake slippers, you know, and so that's What I hiked in and you know, it was just like too awesome not to suffer a little bit. Right. So. Yeah, but we covered. Covered a lot of miles and. And it was just the most bizarre, you know, like my vacations, when there's no cameras around and I have no real job to do, I'm like, oh, my God, I gotta suck every minute out of this because I'm. I'm hunting or fishing.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And we were on this route following this caribou migration and neither camp was like a fishing destination at all. In fact, the second camp, the river, would go subterranean and there just wasn't fish life. Sure. And all my job was was to, like, no itinerary. Right. It's just like, yeah, we just want you to enjoy this. Just be here.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Like, let this place work its magic on you and then tell people about it.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And like I said, I was just. Had been so sick previous to this and it's like Arctic sun. Right. Like so midnight sun. And I slept so fricking hard and. And then, you know, like hiked and I hate cold water, but made myself swim pretty much every day. And our first camp, there were just like, you know, like three foot ice shelves covering like the river was like intermittent between icebergs, you know.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And the ultimate cold plunge. It was just so good. It was just all so good. Yeah. Yep.

[Sam Soholt]

Man, that's incredible.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

Well, Ryan Cahon, welcome to the Legends of the Wild podcast.

[Cal]

Hey. Thank you. Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. That was the perfect preamble into this whole thing. Like. Well, it's cool because, like, we, you know, we're pretty lucky guys, right. We get to go out and experience a lot of wild places and places where a lot of people will never, you know, get to go.

[Cal]

Yep.

[Sam Soholt]

Um, sometimes just simply by sheer force and will to walk there. Um, but like, I was able to, like, it's cool to be able to put yourself in there, like, visual, like, mentally. I could just kind of like envision like everything you were talking about because I've been in landscapes like it, you know, but I have never been there, so it's like, man, that sounds. It just sounds insane. Like every time I find myself somewhere like that, I come home a different person. I think it just changes your whole perspective on everything else you have going on in your life somehow. So, you know, the more times I can spend moments in places like that, the better it is.

[Cal]

I mean, it is so impactful. I mean, it just is, man. And out of sight, out of mind is such a real thing. And you go up and you stare at that stuff. And there's like a level of anxiety because it is so emotionally driven when you're, you're tapped into the world of current events in the conservation game. And, and I'm like, I just gotta see this. Like the Brooks Range Arctic Circle, the Arctic Plain Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Like, these places are like such storied places. I mean, since people. The Yukon Gold Rush and before, like trying to reach the polls and all this, it is so ingrained in like an outdoor kids lexicon.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Of stories. Right. White Fang.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

You know, and to go up there and see it for the first time at 42 years old. 42. And in a time when there's very, very, very serious this is going to happen type discussions on developing that Arctic plane for oil and gas, whether people want to or not. Five year old, oh, gosh, can't remember the word for it right now. But it, oh, mandate mandated five years has to be developed.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And I'm staring over this place that is so lauded and talked about and built up to a point where it could never live up to the expectations. Then you get there and like, like those big chunks of ice had just these dark veins of deep blue ice through them and. And it just exceeded all expectations. I mean, beyond anything I had thought about. And I love wild places like the Bob Marshall and Frank Church, you know, to the largest contiguous wilderness chunks that we have in the lower 48 and have been fortunate enough to see wild bits of a lot of different states that people wouldn't consider wild at all. And I'm so blown away by it. I'm seeing it for the first time. And in the back of my brain I'm like, and this could be the last time anybody sees it in its natural state.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And I'm like, blink of an eye. Glad you got to look at it.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

You know, and any outdoor person is like, oh, man, if I had the time, I'm going to come back and I'm going to climb that peak and I'm going to shoot a sheep over there and I'm going to hunt moose over there. On a hunt caribou over here. And, you know, it's 24 hours of sun right now. I almost, almost talk to the guide about like, listen, dude, I know this river doesn't have any fish in it, but this river I know does. Not because I've ever been there, but because I recognize the name and it's only 20 miles away. I'm like, we got 24 hours of sun, the weather's perfect. I'm like, do you care if we just hike over there, spend the night and hike back? You know, just to say we got an Arctic char within 20 miles of the Arctic Ocean.

[Sam Soholt]

Right, right.

[Cal]

And all these adventures, that potential that you could be having. I'm like, by the time I make.

[Sam Soholt]

It back up here, it may all change.

[Cal]

Yes. So yeah, not just change for, you know, a couple of seasons, but you know, that landscape, once it's altered, man, that stuff does not come back.

[Sam Soholt]

No.

[Cal]

Right.

[Sam Soholt]

So no, because, I mean, I mean they talk about, you know, like. Because it's all just so flat tundra on that big plane. I mean, any sort of scraping of that ground. I mean it's hundreds if not thousands of years of buildup because the growing season is so short. And like there's just, it's such a.

[Cal]

Vat, like I've always been permafrost underneath.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Aquifers bubbling up to the surface everywhere. Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

You know the one, the crazy thing to me is you think about places like that and you think that they should just be like game rich environments. You think there should be animals everywhere. And in some places there are like, you know, giant caribou herds and different stuff like that. But I've always been amazed. Northwest Territories, northern British Columbia. You're up there and you're looking over literally like, you know, tens of thousands of acres that you can see from a glassing point. And there'll be like a band of sheep or something.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

You know, or a moose in the bottom of one drainage.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

And I think, you know, it's just, it's. It's such a wild, harsh country that it seems like it should make sense that there's not a lot of like animals that make it and survive and live there.

[Cal]

Right.

[Sam Soholt]

But you always dream like, oh, there should just. There should you look at it and it's like there should be stuff everywhere.

[Cal]

Yeah. And. And it is so like we flew. We were again, it was like very spoiled kid trip. Like we got, we got dropped off and picked up three times at three different locations. You know, like trying to just like you get to see kind of the, the congregating point for the start of migration, kind of south Midish Brooks Range. And then here's this camp number two that's like on the verge of the open Arctic plain, which is like essentially they're all there at that point.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And then, and then we got dropped off on the Arctic Ocean and got to stand on the Pack ice and. And talk about the fact that, like, the bugs are so bad that it will kill a caribou calf, which is why they make it out here to where there's that constant breeze that knocks the bugs down.

[Sam Soholt]

Sure.

[Cal]

And the animals all congregate. So there's only so many mosquitoes to divide up amongst all the warm bodies.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And that's like the survival method. Right. And when we were flying across that plane, that, like I said, is so flat, you'd be like, two, three minutes and be like, oh, one caribou stood up over, you know, hundreds of thousands of acres. Another two, three minutes of flying. Oh, pair of caribou. Another two, three minutes of flying up another caribou. And our pilot's like. He's like, yeah, I've seen 10,000 caribou standing in the Arctic Ocean just to get away from the bugs. And he's like, you can wait out there, way out there. He's like, and they'll just be out there chest deep in the ocean just.

[Sam Soholt]

To get away from the mosquitoes.

[Cal]

Just to cool down and get away from the mosquitoes in the summer. Right. And it's like, it's the ultimate time lapse. Right. It's like, I want to see that place fill up. And at the same time, 350 different bird species from literally the. Across the globe other than Australia congregate there and ducks and geese and. I mean.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

To watch that place fill up with life. Right. Would just be unbelievable. Yeah, unbelievable.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. I mean, it would be a scene that, like, I mean, what percentage of the population would ever get to see that? I mean, it's such a small fraction.

[Cal]

And the scope and scale of things are just so hard to envision. Right. Like we were on. We hiked up onto a couple of, you know, big old eroded piles of scree out there, let's say, like, probably 350 vertical feet above the Arctic plain. And you could see, you know, conservatively like 150 miles, probably. And, you know, trying to use some landmarks and talk with folks, like. And that just fills with animals basically, like.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Dropping calves and. And hatching chicks. Right, Right. Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

That's amazing. Yeah. I just, you know, at some point we got to figure out how to get up there. I don't know when it'll happen, but, you know, hopefully sooner than later, you know, before there's any changes.

[Cal]

I know, right. And I have, like, this panic feeling right now of, like, sell the house.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Make. It's an expensive trip, but it's Going away. Right. Like you can figure out how to scrape together the cash to get another God awful loan to get a house. Yeah, but the bank's probably not going to give you a loan to get a beaver trip into the Brooks ranch.

[Sam Soholt]

No, not usually. I don't know why I really want to go. I mean they should be able to fund your dreams.

[Cal]

Exactly.

[Sam Soholt]

You know, like.

[Cal]

Exactly. So yeah, man. And just like all these major rivers, most of them have some sort of stories associated with them. But all of those rivers have all these tributaries and since there's no trees, like drop me off in a pack raft on any of that stuff and I'd have a great time. 100.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. I feel like this is like, you know, it's been a long time but like in high school I don't remember the exact legislation or what was happening surrounding the ANWAR at that point. But I remember vividly in high school writing an essay about the Anwar. Like it was like, okay, you've got 50 minutes to write an essay. And like that was the topic because our teacher was passionate about outdoors and conservation. And so like, you know, like I hadn't thought about that until I knew I was gonna be talking to you and you were just getting back. I was like, man, it's, you know, it seems like maybe a little piece of that, you know, like stuck in my brain and that, you know, like just wanting to kind of protect those places. Just help, help shape, you know, it's the small things. It's like help shape my path and my career just from having to write about it. Being forced to write about a cool, such a cool location.

[Cal]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah man. It's. It's a wild place. And you know, I think even if folks don't think about themselves in these ways like to get around and have a job and all those things, you're pro extraction. But the reality is like we don't need to do anything to that place right now anyway. Like we're just not in that position.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

The exploration that's been done of which you can still see the scars on the landscape tells us there's not that much oil and gas there.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

It's an insanely expensive place to do anything in.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And very inhospitable for most of the year other than when I go up there apparently. And, and that stuff's just like safe on the ground. Like it.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

If bush comes to shove and we really need it, it'll be there. But if we don't need it right now, I don't Know why the hell we try to take anything out of there.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. I mean, you look at the risk to reward ratio on that place is, is very high when it comes to destroying like such a, you know, protected place and such a wild place that, you know, why, if we're not at a point where it's a absolute necessity, why would we even mess around with that?

[Cal]

Yeah, absolutely. And, man, I just, I feel like there's so many smart people in all of these industries, you know, that, that constantly, like, tinker on stuff and, you know, I know just like so many farmers and ranchers that have to fix things all the time, they're constantly coming up with new and better ways.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

Just on their own. And. And like, I just cannot believe that in another 20 years we're going to have a better way of doing things with a smaller impact, smaller footprint.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And another 20 years it's going to be even better.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And, you know, if we need it, we can do it in a way that's like, you know, just like minimal impact.

[Sam Soholt]

Right, exactly. Yeah. I mean, as you look at what's happened in the last, you know, call it 25 years, you know, just the technology that changes with fracking and different, you know, directional drilling and stuff, where, you know, it used to be had to have a road in every direction to try to drill an oil pad, and now you can have one centralized location and, and drill out away from that. So at least on the surface, you're looking at a lot less, you know, impact across the landscape. So, you know, I think as people work on it and we continue to speak up about trying to have this not be drastically changed.

[Cal]

Yeah. Well, this idea too, that like, those landscapes are currently working and they're working on our behalf, it's just that most people don't think in those terms. Right, right. It's like, well, there's not a house on it, there's not a drill rig on it. It's just doing nothing.

[Sam Soholt]

Right, right. Underutilized.

[Cal]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's just like so far from the truth. Right. As far as like, man, fresh water reserves up there, carbon sinks and then. Yeah. Just like the production.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Like it produces so much food.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

Yeah. It's just wild.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I gotta hit record here, so pause real quick. It's a punk rock setup and you.

[Cal]

Like, run your awad.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah, I'm watching it. So let's like, let's go back a little bit.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

So where did. I mean, you were a guide outfitter early on. Right. Like, yeah, where does. Like, so take us back through. Like, you can go quick on this, but, like, where'd you start? Where'd you come up? How did. How did you end up in this place where you're at today?

[Cal]

Boy, that's a good question. I. You know, the shortest version is just, like, never saying no to a job.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

I. It was kind of, like, split. My mom's family has a big egg background, agriculture background, and my dad's family started out that way, and then they moved into, you know, the big cities of Montana, Helena, Missoula, a little bit of Bozeman here. My uncle played football here in Bozeman. And then. And everybody stuck around Montana. And I ultimately had three sisters. And I always point to that as, like, if you have three sisters, you spend a lot of time outside.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And you get a lot of patience. And if you like being outside and you have a lot of patience, teaching people how to fly a fish or guiding anything is. Is a pretty easy jump to make. And, you know, growing up in Montana, like, when my dad grabbed me, he was frustrated with my path in life, and. And he was like, you know, if you can only make $50,000 a year in Montana, you're in the top 10% income bracket in the state. Right. And that wasn't that long ago. But he's like. He's like, you got to do more than what you're doing. But, you know, you don't have that far to go to, like, be able to, like, chisel out some sort of a responsible life.

[Sam Soholt]

Sure.

[Cal]

Right.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And. And, yeah, so I was just kind of hustling, not definitely not being conventional in a lot of ways, because my whole goal was to just spend time outside.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

That was like, I'm gonna give up a lot of things on the relationship front and some of the things on the family front and a lot of things on the financial front to just stay outside.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And then I'd have to fill in a bunch of other jobs during that seasonal employment to get to the next outdoor season, you know, so that's. Man, that's. That's what I. I did. And I gotta go all over the place just not saying no to things, and got into doing a little bit of, like, outdoor production work, because I. Quite literally, at that point, you had all these people producing outdoor television content, and they were all like, midwest, east coast, and they would aspirationally want to go get that big Elkon in. Not a dig or anything, but they just were not in shape enough, especially to haul a camera up and down mountains.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And so they're like, oh, you could probably do this type of thing. Right?

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And so I would like guide and film elk hunts and.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And then depending on like if I was working with an outfitter on a TV show, that outfitter to be like, well, you're pretty handy. Have you ever guided?

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And I was like, oh yeah. And so I'd keep all those contacts. And the next year when I was putting together my season, if I was filming a show in New Mexico, I had New Mexico outfitters I could call.

[Sam Soholt]

Sure.

[Cal]

And be like, hey, I don't have to be in Colorado for my next guiding job or film job for two weeks, can you? And then.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. Do you have a client that I can.

[Cal]

And inevitably, you know, a lot of turnover in the guide business. Right. And inevitably they'd be like, yep, no problem.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And then that was like such a massive education because I was, you know, like this 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 year old kid who would just get like dropped in these situations where I didn't know anybody. And then you like walk into the guide shack and be like, who the hell are you? And just me, well, what the hell are you doing here? Why do you have clients already? All these things, you know.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And, and so you just like further that those communication skills and how to make friends fast.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And, and you know, met a bunch of cool folks and. And most importantly, got to see just the effects of being outside in cool places. Not always, but for the most part, like really transform people right when. And I don't think I ever guided anybody from Montana or Idaho. They were all, you know, midwest, east coast people.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

Typically higher income folks. And they would come in with their own bag of issues and sometimes like addictions. And it was amazing what a 10 day trip in the wilderness could do for these folks and you know, watch them and just like totally mellow out and get off the sleeping pills for a week and not be constantly searching for their cigarettes. Right, right. And it was impactful for me at that point because I was like, boy, something's going on here. And you would have, you know, whether folks got that big bowl or buck or whatever, inevitably, you know, they'd be like, oh my God, this was so worth coming out here to this place I never really knew existed. And there were so many people that like didn't even really know where they were showing up to, you know, it was just like, well, my friends booked this trip or father in law loves to do this. I'm just here. All these things, you know, so that. That was really impactful. And then when I got out of the woods one season, it was the last guiding trip of the season. And. And we got weathered in and we couldn't get out. And then finally got out and did what everybody did at that time was go to the bar and try to look for girls and spend all that guide money that I could spend while I was in the woods. And. And a buddy of mine was like, hey, you gotta go with us to this meeting tonight. I was like, oh, great. Like, no. And they're like, well, there's free beer. I was like, okay. And that was one of the first meetings that backcountry hunters and anglers had in Missoula when they had moved to offices, like headquarters to Missoula, and learned about like, all these people who thought wilderness areas shouldn't exist, thought public lands shouldn't exist. And at that point, you know, this would have probably been some there in that 2012ish range. Right? So it was kind of like the ramp up to the next big vocal public push for a land grab. Right. And we had like the Bunkerville scenario and Mal here and.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And all those things shortly thereafter coming up.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And I was just like exposed to this idea that kind of rocked me to my core. I was like, well, how don't people know what I do? Like, I'm making a living for me out there, right. And I'm seeing all these amazing things and it's so unbelievable and it's so transformative on people who aren't like me, but all also are like me. Right?

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. You try to wrap your head around how anyone could ever think that you would want to dispose of that.

[Cal]

Right. Or how it couldn't be good for America.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

I'm like, oh, yeah? Yeah. What part of America? Right, Right. Yeah, Right. Yeah. And. And I'd been, you know, the. The boys at first light, I gotta guide those guys in, like their first out of state elk hunting trip. And that's kind of how I got in with them, like. And we, you know, became friends. They were like, boy, we could really use some help with this clothing idea that we had on the first light side of things. And kind of fast forward five, six years and they're like, we're going to pull each other's hair out. Like, we got to figure this thing out or else we're done with it. We got to sell it. And so they hired me on full time as like this like, we can't afford this. Our homes are mortgaged.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

We're going to try it and then we're going to sell this thing.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And at the end of that first year, they were like, oh, my God, this is fun again, right? Like, yeah, like this is through.

[Sam Soholt]

Through all the stress and anxiety of just leveraging yourself to the hilt. Yeah, it worked, right?

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah. And. And we were, we were definitely having fun and we were building good stuff while learning along the way. Like, nobody had ever done this before. And, you know, the original concept for First Light was to build like the smart wool of the hunting world. Right. And just leave it at base layers and. And that'll be that, right? Well, we didn't have enough money to market anything, and everybody liked the stuff. Our only marketing was giving stuff away early influencer marketing, basically. And we were like, well, we could spend a bunch of money marketing the base layers or we could invest in some outerwear pieces so people at least see the logo. Because we're base layers and it's covered up all the time.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah, exactly.

[Cal]

And we'd go through the Hoyt. We were so archery focused at that point too. Like, the archery world drove everything.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And we'd, like, go through the Hoyt catalog, and in the back of the catalog there was all the athletes, you know, and be like, well, that guy's wearing First Light and that guy's wearing First Light and that girl's wearing First Light. And it'd be same thing with everybody's catalog. And we just was like, but nobody knows it.

[Sam Soholt]

Right? Right.

[Cal]

And so instead of going. And we didn't know how to market anyway. Right. So we built outerwear clothing, a couple of pieces here and there, and went that route. And then that started building up. And at the same time, there was this, like, mounting threat to public lands. And because we were literally a three person show. And my first business card was like, sales meeting, media marketing. And so I was doing like data entry all night long on the sales side of things because I had to answer phones all day long and figure out, like, the media and marketing side of things. But I was good at talking to people.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And so I ran all the social media accounts and did all the, all the marketing. And. And so I'd start being like.

[Sam Soholt]

Hey.

[Cal]

Our customers hunt on, on public land. We hunt on public lands. If it weren't for public lands, this company wouldn't exist.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Like, you guys got to stick up for public lands and that all of a sudden, like, that little bit of industry Voice. People were like, what the hell is going on? And we'd have customers, and we'd have other businesses reach out and say, like, hey, we know you guys are scrappy, and you're three dudes above a garage, but let me help you out. Don't piss anybody off.

[Sam Soholt]

Don't dive into that. Yep, yep. Like, don't get political.

[Cal]

If you alienate somebody.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

They'll never come back. And it's this little piece of a. Of the outdoor pie. They always say, oh, you can't alienate any piece of the pie. Let me take you under. Under my wing, Cal, you know? And then I started looking at the outdoor pie, and I'm like, you know, at that time, it was $3 billion.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And I was like, that's a big pie, guys.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

You know?

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And so we just leaned in to definitely not a plan, but what felt right. And it was absolutely public lands and access.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. You know, which is what I remember about First Light, like, coming online. You know, it was like, I got to be around, like, you know, I have an older brother who really inspired me to do all this stuff. Right. And so. And him and his business partner, old. Opened up a. At a time when, like, this didn't exist. They opened up a backcountry hunting store, an archery pro shop, and a small gun counter. And, like, they were selling the whole kit of what you needed to go into the back country. And so it was. It was called Gannett Ridge. It was in Fort Collins, Colorado. And they brought in First Light, you know, it was, like, really early on, and they had, like, when it was just base layers and then got, like, the first pair of pants, you know, and, like, brought that stuff in. And I remember sending at what now I would deem an insulting Facebook message to you guys. Not on purpose, but I had just come off of learning video production and working for Midwest Whitetail and was doing a bunch of YouTube videos for my brother's shop. And I sent you guys a message. I was like, hey, I'd really like to increase the quality of your videos when you're talking about all your products. Let me know if I can do any work for you. And thinking back on that now, I was like, I'm sure you guys read that message and were like, well, look at this little punk trying to weasel in on this. And, you know, fairly insulting. But I was cocky. I was 24 years old, and, oh. Thought I knew a lot of things.

[Cal]

Yeah. And if you knew the inside of that office conversation, it was probably like, Boy, I wish we had time to do that. Yeah, yeah, like, yeah, yeah. Like, a solid C effort here is about all we have time for, so. Yeah, a lot of room to grow.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Cal]

Yeah. But, yeah, it was pretty wild because the conversation started changing too, and. And I was just, like, stealing things from other outdoor businesses. Like, Orvis was a great example on, like, their conservation portfolio. Patagonia was a great example on their conservation ethos and. And marketing. And I would just, like, you know, just flat out, like, steal little bits of things and. And try to get that embedded in. In first light and. And was like, blown away by the amount of pushback at that time. Right. And again, it's like, not that long ago. Yeah. Of like, conservation groups being like, oh, you think you can work with us? And I'm like, well, I'm trying to give you guys money.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

But we don't have any money.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

So this is what I'm, I'm trying to do. And, you know, it's like roundup for conservation.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And we support you guys, love the work that you're doing, but we would just want to put your logo on there so people can give you money.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Do you know how many people try to do that? I'm like, well, are you telling them no? You know?

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And so there's this. All this just like, boxing out of the space. And there wasn't, you know, and be like, well, we want to give you $5. Okay, great.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Do you want to be a gold level, a platinum level, a silver level? And I'd be like, well, this project that you guys are doing over here is in our backyard.

[Sam Soholt]

We want to fund that.

[Cal]

We want to fund that. And we can bring volunteers and we can. Right now, is that a gold level or a platinum level or, you know, and it was just like this real boxing out mentality. Like, like, you give us the money and that's the relationship.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It. It was always like that, you know, but that was the structure, right? It was. There was. There was a structure in place of how things were done at all the organizations. And then, you know, because, you know, if you looked at, like, the average age of the member base at a lot of those organizations, it was like, you know, in 1995, it was 45, and then in 2005, it was 55, and in 2015, it was 65.

[Cal]

Yep.

[Sam Soholt]

And so they had just done it that way for a long time. And I, you know, but like, you guys coming in, you kind of really busted the door. Open for organizations like Public Land Tees, you know, that I'm co owner of and like to be able to actually work with these organizations and like be like, we're not trying to steal anything from you. We are trying to amplify your message. We're trying to blow this up so you can work with everybody and raise money, like take money from everybody. Don't. Just like you said, don't be like, well, what is that? You know, what level would you like to be at? And earmarking those funds, like, that's one of the greatest things is being able to be like, we want to give you five grand, but we want 100% of it to go to this project because that's way more impactful for like your customer base at, you know, when you were doing this at first, like, because the people who are shopping locally, you know, people who do you really well be like, oh well, those guys just went and pulled 6 miles offense or whatever the project was. And that's going to improve the hunting land, you know, so I'm, I'm a customer for life at that point.

[Cal]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you know, having that mix of like showing up there is, you know, conservation groups all need like general unrestricted funds. Right. And that's a huge part of the pie and shouldn't be overlooked. But the, those mission specific things, if you can get people in the door, you know, and they're like, they're super motivated by this, like, get them in here and knock that project out of the park and say, this is what we do.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And thanks for being here. And then you can build on other donations and other projects and things like that. But yeah, it was just really goofy. So like the peer businesses, eventually, instead of telling me no, like, hey, you're really nice, you're not afraid to walk into our booth and talk as a competitor and shake hands and be nice to people. And that's so refreshing. So let me do you a solid and tell you that what you're doing over here is shooting your, your business in the foot.

[Sam Soholt]

Right, right.

[Cal]

And I'm like, oh God, we're growing, you know, and that conversation eventually changed like, boy, you shouldn't be doing that. I'm so glad you're still here, by the way. How's that working out? You know, and then, and I'm taking telling like legacy brands who were doing really good things for conservation, they just wouldn't advertise it.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Because they didn't want to alienate their piece of the pie. Right? Yeah. And, and so, you know, that's something that we've seen evolve and brands can be more outspoken. You know, like today, you know, we just launched Hunt Brands for Public Lands, which is, is just a sign on letter that says, hey, here's our economic impact. All of these businesses are tied to people's access to public lands.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And public land sales under budget reconciliation are not okay. And if you think of the ripple effect of what this does for our industry, it is just another nail in the coffin. Right?

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Every season is somebody's first season, somebody's last season. I always think about it in bird dogs, brand new puppies, first, first retrieve, your old dog's last retrieve, which I can't even hardly say without tearing up 100.

[Sam Soholt]

It's like my Haiti, they started to use that analogy and I was like.

[Cal]

Oh, man, it's the retirement hunt.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

We gotta get out, we gotta. Right time it just right. So she get the old girl gets one more rooster.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And then we're hanging it up. Every season that happens. Right. So every season is critical. And we know, we know this is not hyperbole. It's an absolute fact that access is the number one reason people get into something. And it's the lack of access as to why they get out of something.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And the further people have to go, the more of a pain in the ass it is. The fewer people are going to participate, the more people are going to hang this stuff up. Got giant conservation repercussions. And it's just got the overall issue that I see, especially when I go back to Washington D.C. is these people do not have a clue where their food comes from.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

They don't have a clue where clean water comes from. They have no idea the value of those landscapes, the big or small, that aren't doing anything.

[Sam Soholt]

Right. The disconnect between all of that and themselves is so drastic compared to, you know, what we get to experience because we force them in. We're wanting to do it every single day is immerse ourselves in those landscapes. But the disconnect between those people and the landscapes they're making decisions about is so far apart that it would be hard from their standpoint. It would be hard to see, like, oh, this is all connected, this entire corridor. Like, if you mess with something here, you mess up the entire chain. But it's interesting that you say that, like, even though that they're the ones that should have like a finger on the pulse of all that stuff when they're making decisions on our behalf Yep, yep.

[Cal]

Exactly, man. And I was. I was just talking to Cameron Haynes today because he's been kicking ass on the public lands front.

[Sam Soholt]

He has. He's really stepped up on everybody's behalf.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

And using his platform. I mean, massively darn right.

[Cal]

Right. And I can hear him running.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

As he's talking on the phone and he's like, hell, man. He's like.

[Sam Soholt]

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[Cal]

For the Dallas Cowboys. I'm partnering with Abercrombie this season to tell you all about their viral denim. All you need is to know is denim should fit like this.

[Sam Soholt]

My jeans need to check a lot of boxes. Fit first, trend second. They need to go with whatever I'm feeling. And Abercrombie Denim has it down.

[Cal]

Whether I'm throwing on a tee or.

[Sam Soholt]

Putting a whole fit together.

[Cal]

Shop Abercrombie Denim in the app, online and in store. He's like, the Pisgah National Forest is where I go every single day.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And it's five miles from my house if that. And I'm not here because I looking to be totally alone, you know, it's. Everybody comes out here and uses this stuff. But it's like, this is my relief.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

On the day is coming out here and I go for my run and he's like, I be like, would I still come out here if it's 15 miles away? Sure. But there'd be more excuses not to.

[Sam Soholt]

Definitely.

[Cal]

Right. And then when you think about it from a hunting perspective, like all this front country stuff is what Mike Lee is proposed to sell.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Because it's your just your garden variety public land that has no value.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And these are the places where people in. Even in towns like Bozeman, Montana, which a lot of people here think like this is the edge of the wilderness. Right. That's the type of stuff that would be for sale is like the getting out on your lunch hour for a run or after work to run the bird dog. Just a little decompress time. Those are the places that Mike Lee wants to sell.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And sell in a way that not a single American person will ever feel the repercussions of that sale. Those places go away. What's that do then? To the back country? If the front country goes away, what happens to the back country? And man, like, if that stuff goes away too, like, what happens to those people that became. That were advocates for the outdoors?

[Sam Soholt]

Right. Yeah. What do you. What's. I can't even begin to imagine the ripple like down the line. You know, it might not be next year or five years or 10 years, but like as that, as our voice decreases because you have a lack of participation, like, what's to say it's not all privatized at some point, you know, and that's an extreme case, obviously, but like, it's something we need to talk about because what.

[Cal]

We're an extreme case, but it's literally the case.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Everywhere outside of the U.S. and Canada.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

So it's pretty relevant case 100%.

[Sam Soholt]

And it's. What we're talking about is trying to protect this. We're not talking. We don't want to protect public lands for like our kids. It's our kids hundredth great grandkid. It's protecting this in perpetuity because having these landscapes, like you said, is. It's actually having connection to the land that we live on. And without that, I don't. I don't know who we become as a society. We change a lot as a society. If you don't have that.

[Cal]

Oh man. I mean, just the health ramifications of lack of access to the outside. Right. Like That's a societal factor all over the world.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

That we can study in real time right now. Right. And that is the future that we're looking at. And it's not hyperbole and it's not anything crazy. You know, if all we get left. Right. Is the iconic landscapes of national parks.

[Sam Soholt]

It's not enough.

[Cal]

It. No. And I don't. It's not.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. Like.

[Cal]

And well, plus it's like look what happens to ski areas right now. Right, Right. It's like pretty soon there's a three hour line to get in the national park and the entry fees. $500.

[Sam Soholt]

Exactly.

[Cal]

Right.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Because it's the economy of scale. Right. Like super high demand. Not a lot left.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

Right. So there are so many examples of this in real time. Like it's, it's not debatable. Like it is the path that we're going to go down if we let this stuff happen. Right. So I've been very, very pleased with the folks that are standing up.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And I would love to people to get away from the, the real gotchas and politics of the situation. You know, right now we are trying to convince Republicans because the Republicans have the Senate and the House and they're the votes that we, that we need.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

The worst thing in the world that Republicans can do is make Mike Lee the representative of all Republicans.

[Sam Soholt]

Right. Yeah.

[Cal]

He's not.

[Sam Soholt]

No, not at all.

[Cal]

He's not.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Right. That's a losing strategy for Republicans. Right. Like, we all love public lands. We've all known it. Unfortunate that it takes a fricking fire on the doorstep.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Of hunters and anglers to get them to be like, boy, I can feel the heat. I can cook an egg on the inside of my door.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

It's probably time to say something.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And it, I was talking, having a conversation about this because most people that are just hunting and fishing or that just want to spend time in the outdoors, they don't want to think about the having to deal with politics to keep that protected. Right. So it's like, it's hard to rally people like around issues if there's not one that's like not like, you know, burning down the door like you said.

[Cal]

Yep.

[Sam Soholt]

But that being said, I think it's important that people see the current situation as a wake up call to be more proactive on all of this stuff instead of just like only doing something when there is a massive threat to this. So I keep posing the questions like, okay, how do we. Instead of constantly being reactive to this type of stuff. And there are a lot of people like you, like Granny Newberg and other conservationists in the space who are constantly working on this. But how do we, how do we come together, you know, as a community across all public land users? Like, and how do we rally that as a coalition to like create legislation where it's like this can't be passed in law to get rid of these lands. How do we move that forward?

[Cal]

Well, yeah, I mean, kind of fortunate right now. This could be a moment where we have legislation that's been floated out there by Representative Ryan Zinke called the Public Lands and Public Hands act, which would prevent the sale of of public lands with the exception of the existing legal framework in the flip month. Flip process.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

We have a lot of unity across user groups and just a good old fashioned American citizens in the US right now that have public lands front and center. The mistake that we would make is trying to make a deal right now. We have the momentum. It's not time to make a deal. It's time to tell them exactly what we want, demand that it makes. We make it happen. Right. So it's changing that ask. Right. At first it was like, hey, public lands are very important to me. Please stand up for public lands.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And then it was like, hey, I appreciate your position on public lands. Thank you so much. What are you doing to get the other senators on board with this or the representatives in the House? And what I like to throw out there, which really makes the staffers think is, okay, great, I'm going to call back tomorrow and check in.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Just so you know, I'm going to follow up with you.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And they're like, oh my God, this long winded son of a bitch is going to call back again. Right. And, and then you're making those asks, you're like, thank you, that's great, Becky.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

You're wonderful. Great talking on the phone with you. Can't wait to talk to you tomorrow.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

You know, it's like, oh my God.

[Sam Soholt]

That'S a good strategy. I like a lot.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

Because it. Well, first of all, they'll remember you more and you know, they'll know like that, oh man, like I am going to have to have a conversation about this again. So I better come back with something or at least have some answers. And so then that is getting talked about more. And it's not just like getting filed into a another, you know, bank of like, yep, somebody else called about this. Somebody else emailed about this. Yep. It's actual, you know, pushing that agenda forward to make sure that we're protecting these places, which is. Which is huge. And I've been. I have been blown away. And one thing I wanted to ask you after this is. But I've been blown away that, like, companies that I've never seen post anything political or about public lands or whatever are making huge statements. And people from all walks of life, all industries, all recreational user groups, like, it's everywhere. I mean, and obviously I'm probably in like a algorithm echo chamber on the public land side of things, so I see it all. But I wanted to ask you is like, this fight is one of the first ones where, I mean, obviously the one, you know, 2016, 2017, 2018 was a big one. Um, but right now, like, social media is so much bigger even than it was, you know, then, like, how do you think that has changed the landscape when it comes to people actually speaking up about this? Because there's. Do you think it has helped or do you think it is hurt in any way? Where there's, like, misinformation out there? I mean, there's certainly that, but I feel like in my eyes, it seems like it has been an easy way for people to actually get involved where they don't feel. They don't feel a lot of risk, I guess, behind it. And they feel like they can speak up and make their voice heard because they have a platform.

[Cal]

Yeah. Utilize those platforms that you got in your pockets for sure. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it can move the needle. I got a buddy of mine who I think is. There's this actress, Sydney Sweeney, she's from Spokane, Washington. I don't know if you've ever been to Spokane, but I have. He must be infatuated with her, but he's a cow. You know, Sydney Sweeney, she's talking about public lands too. Right. And so, like, it is a good vector to cross into the mainstream, right?

[Sam Soholt]

Yes.

[Cal]

Like, to get your niche. Well, I'm a public land hunter into the public land Fisher, into the horseback rider, into whatever it is Sydney Sweeney does. Right, Right. So, yeah. I mean, phenomenal tool. I don't even want to talk about misinformation because it's all available so fast.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Does take time to figure out what. What the real story is. Right. And be accurate. And accuracy absolutely matters. You know, if you're not accurate, eventually you're not credible either.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Unless you really go for it, which some people do. And it works. But not My style and certainly nothing I would do as a brand. And the danger is you still need.

[Sam Soholt]

To call directly, contact.

[Cal]

Yeah. Write emails. You know, I'll tell you, like, the BHA Action center has been so badass to see and people need to understand that, you know, the value of running, you know, an email through any sort of take action buttons for these organizations is they also then get to take that data and like, that goes directly to our government relations team on the Hill and he gets to sit down because he's got these relationships and say, Hey, 100,000 people. 100,000 people called.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And we know that. Here's the data.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And trust me when I say, man, there are politicians who have not gotten a hundred thousand phone calls throughout their entire career, multi decade career. Right. So when all of a sudden it's like we can't get anything done because all there is are emails and phone calls on this topic, we should probably figure out how to address this. Like those things move the needle. It's always a never just a one thing thing.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

It's, it's a multi pronged approach. Yeah, but yeah, that BHA Action center is, is a hell of a tool. Don't disregard the, the form letters because they're, they're used in a handful of different ways, but don't rely on them solely either.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

Well, it kind of reminds me of, you know, when, when it was organizations like RMEF and that would, when you have a lobbyist in Washington, they would say, I'm here on behalf of X number of members. So that creates a larger voice. Right. So when you're talking to a senator or a congressman or woman, you can say, I'm here on behalf of 250,000 members of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. And yes, this is how we feel. Like I'm speaking on behalf of these members. This is how we feel about this. So this is the same thing. It's just amplifying the voice that we have and letting them understand like, like. And you know, for the a hundred thousand people that called, how many more are out there that didn't pick up the phone but feel the exact same way? So when you say like, look at the numbers here. This is the number of people that actually took action that made the phone call, that sent the email, that did the things to, to try to move the needle, there's another 10x above and beyond that that didn't pick up the phone. And so I think they start to understand like just the ramifications of like not doing Something on our behalf when there's that many people that are pissed off about it.

[Cal]

Absolutely. And you know, these targeted organizations, right, and where it's like, this is our issue. So I promise you, these people are not. They're not going to stop, Right. They're. They're fired up and you know, like bha, like, we pride ourselves on, like, the grassroots of the organization and kind of like how we talked about in the beginning, the hard structural organization of nonprofits is like, well, you just give me the cash, Right?

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

Oh, it's very powerful to bring members into an organization and then give them back the tools to go lobby on their own. Right. Like, you are going to be an informed member of the population. You're going to go stand up at a Fish and Game committee meeting or a House committee on whatever energy and natural resources, and you can do this as a citizen. And like, we're going to back you up and be there with you, you know? And not only is that like empowering the citizenship, but not many people do that, man. Yeah, like, not many people do that here in Montana. Certain issues are. Are pretty funny. Like, I'll, I'll show up. And there's like generations of old BHA guys and gals there, like, now that they're retired, they're like, oh, we got.

[Sam Soholt]

This, you know, so we got this handled.

[Cal]

Yeah, it's pretty great. It's pretty great. All right. What are you doing here? Well, same thing. Yep, same thing. Yeah. Just had to take some time off of work to do it, so. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, those organizations, we're in an interesting time now where, you know, these individuals campaigns, like we talked about, like, like, you know, they have an impact as large or greater on social media than a lot of these organizations. But what you pay for by joining a group, that membership fee at minimum, that should get you somebody in the room representing your interests, right? So if your interests align with that organization, you are going. Because you have a 9 to 5 job and you can't be taking time off just for this thing. In addition to doctor's office visits and all the normal things, you're going to have somebody in that room that represents those interests. Right. And they're using that membership. Like you said, say, like, hey, this is our membership. These are the states we're in. This is our mission. And you gotta know, this is what we hold dear. And we're not gonna stop.

[Sam Soholt]

Right?

[Cal]

How can we make this happen? Yeah, right.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. Yeah. It's a very powerful thing to just, you know, to be a member of whatever niche group. Because I promise, whatever you're into, whether it's, you know, if you're love mountain goats, if you love public land access, if you love elk, if you love deer, if you love fish, there is an organization that is working to protect and improve that for you. And so just, you just gotta go find that and join it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As simple as that.

[Cal]

And then again, we kind of put together these coalitions right where right now, especially like TRCP is going to round up all these hook and bullet groups. We're going to combine all of our memberships. We're going to sign on to a letter that says no public land sales and budget reconciliation. Right, Right. Not. Not one acre. And then again, as. As businesses, we can do that too. So it's a special time right now. Advocacy works. It's just. It's another job, man. You got to. You got to put in the time and make it happen and it can show. Show real results. And I think, you know, in the case of Mike Lee here, he has burned a heck of a lot of cache and bridges on this idea that he promised people wouldn't be a big deal.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And lo and behold, it's a big deal.

[Sam Soholt]

It's a big deal. Yeah, yeah. Because I can't even. I can't imagine that there is a senator across the board that hasn't been getting heat on this. And so, like, you know, bringing that back to the forefront, like the priority list of where public lands and hunting fishing issues sit within the minds of people in Washington, D.C. i bet that has changed pretty drastically just in the last 30 days.

[Cal]

Yes.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Yep, yep. They're like, oh, my gosh. When the Democrats and. And Republicans were trying to whip up hunting support during the election, all those people are still here, right? Holy shit. Oh, my God.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

No. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. They're really. They're really vocal, turns out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you directly threaten the things that they love.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. Because we're all pretty quiet, you know, for the most part because we just want to go spend time in the woods, you know, a lot of times alone.

[Cal]

Yep.

[Sam Soholt]

Disconnect. But, man, when you threaten the thing that we all love and want to protect dearly, it's amazing how loud we can all be.

[Cal]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, man. I was just. We did like a kind of a press conference with Veterans Voice. I said vvf, Veterans Voice foundation. And then our Armed Forces Initiative with backcountry hunters and anglers and, you know, we talked about the Fact that it's like, everybody. Not exclusive to veterans, but everybody when they're heading outside, like, it's personal time and they're out there for oftentimes personal reasons, reflections. Certain spots hold deeply personal meanings. And right now I'm kind of like, I'm asking those veterans, I'm like, share your stories.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

I know you guys hate being thanked. I know you guys don't like the spotlight, but trust me, like, we'll. We'll all be dead and gone if we do this. Right. We'll all be dead and gone, and you won't have to hear the thank yous from the untold generations of public land users.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

That get to use that stuff. Because you guys spoke up right now.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And you talk to that group, man. And it is. It's brutal. Right. Because these guys are like. I mean, we were in a small group the other day, and I said, you know, I. It's not really my place to say this, but I have to because of the time and space. You know, I'm talking with this veteran in West Virginia, and he's crying on the side of the river. We're on this float trip. I'm like, hey, how's it going? And he's like, oh, I'm all screwed up, man. Don't. Don't worry about me. Right. And he's like, but thankfully, I work on this river, and I come down to this river, and I spend time on this river, and this is. This is where I'm good.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

Right. And if that river access goes away, he kills himself.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And. And that. It sounds crazy, but, like, it is just the real thing. And in this little group of people that we're having this kind of conversation with, three hands go up, and they're like, that's me.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

Right.

[Sam Soholt]

And is wild to think about.

[Cal]

Is horrifying and wild. And. And we got a lot of veterans out there who are seeking solace on their little special spot. Right.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep. Their little slice of heaven.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

They have carved out.

[Cal]

Yeah. And. And there's a lot of other people who have not served that have deep, deep meanings, too.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Cultural. All. All the things. Right. So again, there's a big disconnect with some of the folks who think they have a grand plan to use this stuff for something better.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And that's. That's pretty damn scary. And we got to make sure that we don't necessarily need to turn those people into users, but we need to make sure that those people understand what these places mean to us. And we got to be able to tell our stories effectively.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

And not every conversation has to be screw, use. And who'd you vote for?

[Sam Soholt]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Cal]

Like, so if you're waiting for an election right now.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

To use your voice.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Going to give up a hell of a lot.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep.

[Cal]

In order to. Oh, I. I voted. Right. Right.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Right.

[Sam Soholt]

Anymore. It's not enough.

[Cal]

No.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. Especially if you have things that you're passionate about, like it. You know, you need to be educated about it, at least whatever you're passionate about. And then speaking up on that.

[Cal]

Yeah. Turn that staffer on the other end of the phone call into a friend.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

And an advocate and be like, oh, God, Sam called again. But.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

He's so nice. I gotta make sure this message gets through.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. And I think that's one thing, because.

[Cal]

I know he's gonna call back.

[Sam Soholt]

Right.

[Cal]

I gotta have something good to tell him. Right.

[Sam Soholt]

Right. And I think that's one thing. Just to reiterate again, is, like, when you call. Be professional, be concise. You don't have to be, you know, you don't have to go on and on and on about how passionate you are about it. They'll. They're gonna get it. But just making your voice heard is, you know, making a huge difference.

[Cal]

Yeah. And make it a phone call, not a transaction.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. Yep. Exactly.

[Cal]

Yep.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. Well, I appreciate. I mean, I think everybody listening appreciates your dedication, constant dedication to conservation, raising awareness about all this stuff. I know. You know, as I came up, I mean, you're only. I think, what, you're 42. Yeah. You're only five years older than I am, but I've always looked up to you in the conservation space. And, you know, it's. There's. I always look at people who inspired me to kind of, like, weasel my way through this industry, and you're one of them for sure. So I appreciate that and just, I can't thank you enough for Hop.

[Cal]

Supposed to wait till I die to say stuff like that. Sorry. No, I like to do it. Pretty uncomfortable. Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

That's good. A little squeamish.

[Cal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

No, but thanks for hopping on the podcast and, you know, for everything that you do and anybody listening, you can follow along with old Cal 406.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Sam Soholt]

Yes.

[Cal]

Yep. Cal's week in review.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah.

[Cal]

On, you know, the Mediator podcast network. Um, we'll get you some fast conservation news.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah. Which is awesome. It's a. It's a great way for people to digest what's happening out there in a short manner and just be better informed when they call that aid and call that, you know, person to have a conversation.

[Cal]

Yeah. And if you don't hear a story about your state, don't worry. It's happening.

[Sam Soholt]

Yep. Absolutely.

[Cal]

It's. It's happening. So I can't cover all 50 every episode. The takeaway, though, is if it's happening somewhere else, it's probably happening in your state, too. So you got to get informed. It's not that hard.

[Sam Soholt]

That's right. Well, thanks again for hopping on and look forward to everything you're putting out in the future. And we'll put it all in the show notes, obviously, but get everybody pushed your way to go.

[Cal]

Listen, awesome. Thanks a ton, Sam.

[Sam Soholt]

Yeah, thank you.