← Legends of the Wild, A Field And Stream Production | Hunting, Fishing and the Outdoors
Legends of the Wild, A Field And Stream Production | Hunting, Fishing and the Outdoors
Episode 22 - Build a Hunting Career: Mark Kenyon on Storytelling, Conservation, and Public Land
01:07:44
How Mark Kenyon turned passion for hunting into a career while protecting public lands and wildlife for future generations.
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- [00:00]
A
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com this is Legends of the Wild presented by Field and Stream. Let's get into it. Hey everybody. Welcome back to Legends of the Wild. Today I'm joined by at this point, longtime friend Mark Kenyon. So we've known each other now getting to be a long time and I always feel like younger and earlier into my career in the, like the hunting industry. And then I think back of like when we first met, it's like, ah, we're probably like 10 years in at this point of knowing each other. So. Welcome to the show, Mark.
- [01:11]
B
Thank you, Sam. That's crazy how fast it all goes. I, when I first started this whole, like, in this whole world, the tagline of my first project had the next generation of deer hunters in it. And, and now I'm realizing, man, I am not the next generation anymore. I'm like, I'm way down the line of generations. Unfortunately, it's caught up to us quick.
- [01:31]
A
Yeah, it really has. You know, the, I was just thinking before we hopped on here, I was like, I was trying to think of like when you first like popped into my periphery like of, you know, kind of in, in the world. And actually I was living in Bozeman, Montana with a guy from Michigan and he just happened to have a copy of the Outdoor Life magazine where you were the COVID model. And so that was, that was the first time I had ever heard of what you were doing with Wired to Hunt. And then I remember distinctly, like listening to your podcast when I'd be at the gym or like, just like trying to like figure out going through old episodes and stuff and listening to. And that would have been in2014.
- [02:18]
B
Yeah.
- [02:19]
A
So, yeah. Crazy. Yeah.
- [02:22]
B
That's nuts.
- [02:23]
A
Yeah. So you've been doing this a long time.
- [02:26]
B
I have, yeah. I, I guess I got my first start in 2008 and it's been a, it's been a long, seemingly quick, but long, wild ride ever since.
- [02:37]
A
So is 08 when you started Wired Hunt podcast or was it so Wired
- [02:43]
B
to Hunt started actually as just like, a blog. So it started as a website summer of 2008, and then, you know, continued on in that fashion, growing and doing different things until the podcast launched, I think, in the beginning of 2014 or. Okay, yeah, I think that's when the podcast came. Came to be.
- [03:03]
A
Yeah, I guess. I mean, that would make sense, because, like, podcasting, like, in 08 was not really a. A thing.
- [03:08]
B
Like, wasn't quite a thing yet. You know what's funny, though, is, like, at that time, and maybe I'm getting ahead of you here, but when I launched Wired to Hunt and started writing and doing social media and YouTube and all that kind of stuff, back then, I was, you know, just trying to find different ways to. To share my love for deer hunting and those experiences and build a community. And my dad was listening to podcasts in the tech world. He. He worked in kind of, like, the computer information technology world. And so he was like, you should launch a pod. You should launch a podcast. And I was so annoyed with him. I'm like, dad, I'm not doing a podcast. These are deer hunters. Stop, like, putting your thing on me. Yeah. And then, sure enough, like, a couple years later, I'm like, yeah, you know, podcast is probably a good idea. You were right. I had to eat my words.
- [03:57]
A
I mean, as we do as sons, right. As, you know, you got. You got to rebel a little bit, be like, I know what I'm doing. I've got this figured out. Yeah.
- [04:05]
B
And now I'm a father myself, and I realize that, actually, I should have been listening all along.
- [04:09]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so what. What was the, like. I mean, was it just the inspiration of, like, you were passionate about deer hunting and just wanted to, like, share your experiences? Or what was, like, the. What was the motivation to actually, like, sit down, create a blog, a website to, like, dive in and start sharing that stuff?
- [04:30]
B
Yeah. So it was actually the lack of deer hunting in the outdoors that led me to want to create something about it. I had grown up hunting and fishing from day one, like, the early. My earliest memories are outside, doing that kind of stuff with my family. But when I was in college, for a while there, I thought, man, I wanted to pursue business and the big city lights and all that. And so I took an internship in New York City in the summer of 2008. I was working for an ad agency, and I was in, like, midtown, you know, couple blocks off, you know, from. You know, from all of it. And I just remember every day feeling Increasingly more and more claustrophobic, more and more cut off from the things that I loved. And my job with this agency was to basically connect with bloggers and try to get them to feature and write about the products of our clients. And so I'm like talking to people who are writing about sneakers. And, you know, I, I don't. I don't know what was wrong. IPhones or maybe iPhones weren't even around back then. But whatever it is, whatever the products were, I was trying to get them to, to feature it. And that's when I realized, like, wow, there's all these people out there that are writing about this stuff they love and they're making a living off of it. And there's people like, commenting and engaging and just one day, I remember I actually went to. I walked to a newsstand downstairs. I remember being like a subway, if I remember correctly. And there was a newsstand and I grabbed an issue of Field and Stream magazine, an issue of Outdoor Life magazine, because that's the only hunting stuff I could get there. And I walked it up to my office and I'm sitting. It was like, little cubicle, not really an office, but I'm in my little cubicle and eating my lunch, looking through these magazines. I'm like, I just need. How do I do something like this? Like, I need to scratch this itch somehow. And that's when I connected the dots between, you know, the clients I was working with and my love for the outdoors. And I thought, I'm going to start a website. I'm going to start just writing about this stuff, and then I'll have an excuse to, to just be in it, at least in my mind, in my own mental state, if I can't be within it, you know, actually physically. And so, yeah, I dove in head first that summer, started learning how to, you know, build a website and trying to learn how to become a better writer and build a brand and a community. And it just kind of gained speed and momentum and snowballed from there.
- [06:54]
A
That's pretty awesome. I mean, for people listening, like, you talk about sitting down and learning how to build a website. Like, back then there wasn't like, Squarespace didn't exist. So you couldn't just like, pick a template, throw in your photos, add some copy, and you've got like this beautiful website. Like, it's a. It was a completely different thing. I mean, you're only eight years post.com bubble.
- [07:13]
B
Yeah, I had to learn HTML. I was doing HTML coding to be able to, like, Customize things and like manually putting in JPEGs and all that. I mean, it was. Yeah, I went through a whole series of like, learning how to do actual web designs, design, and then, and then moved into WordPress, because that was the very beginning of WordPress. But then I was still constantly custom, you know, creating templates for different things in there. So, yeah, it was pretty antiquated when you look back on it now. But the whole thing was a great exercise in just like seeking out and finding answers to questions. I didn't, I didn't know how to build a website, so I sought it out. I read the books, I figured it out. I didn't know, you know, I had no formal writing training other than just schooling, basic schooling. I didn't have a writing degree or anything. And so I sought out and read every book about good writing I could find and I sought out good photography books and courses and learned how to take do, you know, to some degree do that kind of thing, and on and on and on. So it was, it was a great, just exercise for me to go through repeatedly throughout this process that I think has helped me, you know, in the long run too.
- [08:18]
A
And then how many. I mean, you know, there's a lot of people. I'm sure you get questions all the time too. It's like, how do I get into the outdoor industry, right? I mean, at that time, you're basically, you know, building a career in something that didn't quite exist at the time. It's like the original, you know, pre social media influencer, right, where you're like, you're just like, I want to talk about this stuff and I want to figure out a way to monetize it. So that's like one direction, but like, how many. I mean, so one, you took the time to figure out how to do all those things, right? So, you know, for people who are trying to get in, it's like, you got to learn a skill set. You got to figure this out. But then how many, how much were you writing? How much were you contributing to your website to like, kind of keep building that engagement?
- [09:02]
B
I worked on it, I would say really, really, really close to every single day for at least the first four years. I mean, I was obsessed. It was, you know, I'd work on it for two hours before starting the day job in the morning and my lunch breaks, I was messing around on it. When I get home, if I wasn't with my girlfriend or actually out hunting or fishing, I was working on it. It was, it was so much fun, too. Like, in those early stages, too, it was all new. It was exciting. I was passionate about trying to build this thing, figure this thing out, grow this thing. So it just consumed me for years and. And didn't make any money for a very, very long time, but it was just a lot of fun to be able to dive into this project. So, yeah, started in 2008, and, you know, I probably did it for two or three years before I made a dime. And then from that point then, it was kind of a slowly diversified set of different ways. I was able to, you know, make a little bit of money through an article, a little bit of money through this kind of thing, a little bit of money through this thing, and. And slowly, slowly built it up, while also building my, I guess, credentials within the community and meeting editors and talking to magazine editors and started writing for magazines. I think I had a piece in Field and Stream. I had some stuff in Outdoor Life, had some stuff in other deer and deer hunting and North American Whitetail, all these places, and just kind of piecemeal. I slowly built different ways to make something work.
- [10:28]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes that's what it takes, right? Where you're just, like, you. You have the motivation, and you just keep banging against the wall until you finally get through it. But it takes time. I actually was like, as you were telling that story, you talked about how it took a long time to make any money at it. And I had a message not too long ago. Somebody asked me, like, hey, man, how do you. You know, how do you. How do you have a career in photography and video stuff? I was like, I just you know, basically kind of started, you know, like, I just started taking photos, started sending photos off, and then, like, networked my ass off to find and meet a whole bunch of people. And in the message that I responded to this person, I said, you know, there's a lot more great opportunities now. Like, I mean, I got my start at Midwest Whitetail, like an internship. I was like, if you can get in with one of those, like, that is a giant launch pad into something. So. And there's a lot of companies and groups now that are doing internships. And he'd actually already been an intern with one of the groups. And I was like, well, you're already in. Like, your foot is so far in the door compared to most people who, like, just are thinking about doing it. And then he's like, yeah, now I just got to figure out how to, you know, make it bigger. And I was like, man, it took Me, like, three years, four years before I, like, actually was making money, I was running, like, negative credit card balances to, like, keep staying alive, borrowing money from parents and doing all the things that you do when you're young and dumb and trying to make it work. And so, yeah, I was gonna say
- [12:02]
B
you gotta love it. You have to.
- [12:03]
A
You have to do it for the love of it. Yeah. And you have to think of it as. You have to understand, like, it's a small business and most don't turn a profit for the first, you know, five years or whatever. So I think between having the passion and the, and the love for it and then just understanding, like, it's not an overnight thing. It's. It's, you know, it's at this point, it's decades of, like, putting together consistent content and whatever it is that you're doing. And so people trust you and you can deliver a good product, whatever that might be, and just, you know, keep moving forward. It's small percentage wins every day over time.
- [12:39]
B
Yeah, so true. And it's, you know, you asked a second ago, or you, you assumed that I get this question a lot, and you're right, I do. Everyone, I'm sure, asks, you know, both of us these kinds of things, and, and it comes down to what you just said, which was, you know, those little daily investments that slowly accrue over time. It, you know, you have to love it. You have to have that deep desire to engage with this stuff no matter what, because you're probably not going to get rich. You're probably not going to hit it overnight. You're probably not going to have it easy. You know, it's going to be a struggle. It's going to be a ton of work. It's going to have to consume you if you're going to make it. But then also, I think there's some people who assume that just because you love it, it should work. And that's not true either. Right.
- [13:21]
A
For sure.
- [13:21]
B
You can't just be like, oh, I'm really passionate about hunting and I. And I kill big animals. Like, that's not going to do it. You have to have something unique and valuable that you can bring to the table because there's a ton of noise out there. No matter what it is that you want to do, whether it's, you know, if you want to design products or you want to, you know, design websites or you want to do a podcast or you want to write articles or photography, whatever, there's lots of competition and you have to Figure out what you uniquely can bring, what your value proposition is, what perspective or lens into the world that you have that nobody else has. Because if you try to just do the generic that everybody else does, of course you're going to fade into that noise. So that's another thing I lean, and I would suggest people lean into. And then finally, you know, you. Then you just have to do it. You just have to start whatever the thing is, do the thing, and continue doing it over and over and over and share it with the world or put it out there, or like you said, network and connect and keep trying and keep iterating and keep getting better at it. And slowly but surely those things can lead to connections or opportunities or open doors. But it's a process. But again, if you genuinely love this stuff, it's a process worth, you know, it's worth chasing down. Yeah, yeah.
- [14:39]
A
Because then all of a sudden on a Tuesday afternoon, you're sitting down with some, you know, a friend to talk about all this stuff.
- [14:45]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [14:46]
A
Instead of clocking in or somewhere or do, you know, doing something else.
- [14:49]
B
Very thankful for that.
- [14:50]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so started a website, ran that, and then launched the podcast. How, what was the, what was the process like when you dove into the podcasting space? Were people, like, receptive to being guests? You know, like people that you looked up to or just wanted to, like, understand better about a certain topic? Like, what was that process like, getting into it? Because it's again, 2014, when you launched it, it was not, you know, like the same as it is now, where, you know, everybody's got a podcast.
- [15:22]
B
Yeah. And it was a, it was an interesting time too, because not only was that the case, but also when I started the podcast, I kind of. There was a reset for me as far as my confidence in the project I was, I was working on, because it was right around that time that I quit my day job. And so I went full time with Wired to Hunt at the end of 2013. And so at that time, now I had the, the time available to me to kind of expand, and that's what led to the podcast expanding. But now all of a sudden, I don't have a backup. I don't have any other income. Right. I just got married. I got married and quit my job like a week later. So the old bait and switch on the wife there. But good test.
- [16:03]
A
That's a good test.
- [16:04]
B
Fortunately, she was on board with it from the get go. But. But yeah, so then the podcast was going to come together and the funny Thing is that you just had to explain what a podcast was to everybody because it just wasn't a thing to most people in our world. So once people understood the basic concept, though, people were very, very willing to. To hop on and engage. I didn't have very many people who were too, Too big to talk, who were too, you know, high and mighty to want to chat with some lowly kid who was trying to build a podcast. I had enough of a brand built that I had at least something to point towards at that, at that time. You know, I could say, hey, this is this website I've been doing. I write for this magazine and that magazine. This is what I'm trying to do. So that helped. But there was, you know, it was. It was the Wild west and podcast. There were a handful of other deer hunting and hunting related shows out there, but. But really minimal nothing, you know, that was. Was going to the degree that I was trying to. So I had that early mover advantage. And, and, you know, when I go back and I've a couple times went back and listened to some of those early episodes, and they're so bad, they're so horrible. So I, I can't believe that it worked out, but I think it worked out in part because there was just so many people desperate for something like that, and it wasn't there yet. And. And when Wired to Hunt came to the table, it was like, hey, here's. Here's a couple guys that love this stuff and really love to learn about it. Come and learn alongside of us, and we might be idiots and we might not know what we're doing yet either, but we're gonna figure it out together. And I think that's how the Wiretown podcast and that community really, really started and came together over the years. And, and, you know, I'm just, I'm really grateful for, you know, Dan Johnson, my co host at the time of the podcast, who was a great partner to build that with those early days. And then just all the listeners who followed from the website and from the social media and all the different things that I started with and followed this new thing that I, I thought it could work when I was launching it, but I did not realize just how much that would grow our ability to reach people and impact people. The podcast really was a paradigm shift for what we. For what I was trying to do.
- [18:18]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like the. I, I'm trying to. I'm trying to think back when I was listening to those early episodes, and you're right about at the time there was how bad they were. Well, no, that's not what I was going to say. Rough. Yeah, they were super rough. You know, I'd listen to snippets here and there, but couldn't get through a whole episode. No, I was. I was trying to think back of like which ones existed at the time as far as like, for like hunting specific stuff. It was like you had one, Rogan had, you know, he had his podcast, but he like, you know, had a couple guys in the hunting space on what other ones even existed at the time as far as like hunting specific.
- [19:03]
B
So I remember back in the fall of 2009, so when I had. When I. And I remember this because it was when I was living in California, working my day job at that time and again was. Was stuck away from hunting, not able to do the stuff I want to do. So I. That was really another phase of really doubling down on. On building Wired Hunt. And I remember going and running the treadmill in Peterson's Bow Hunting. Actually had a podcast. I think it was Bow Hunting or Bow Junkie, Bow Junkie or Pierce's Bow Hunting, something like that. There was some bow hunting podcast around. It was like the only thing like that that I remember listening to while running on the treadmill in the fall of 2009. And then there was another show that I think was called the Big Buck Registry or something along those lines that was out there. But that was, you know, pretty much the pretty slim. Pretty slim pickings back then. And definitely nothing that was dedicated to like the die hard whitetail hunter. Not to the right. The degree that we were.
- [20:07]
A
Yeah. Which is, you know, kind of surprising like that, you know, because there's so many people that like eat that up, you know, just live and breathe it. That nothing existed. But like, what a cool time to like be like the one, you know, that kind of went in and focused on that.
- [20:24]
B
So yeah, it was, it was fun. And I think one thing that maybe A, helped, you know, make it possible just because I was so interested in it and B, maybe why folks enjoyed it was because I am just an insatiably curious person. I love to learn. Like one of my absolute favorite things is just to learn about anything new. I just dive in a thousand percent. And so this represented like this new level of me, like diving to this next level, but like 10 levels deeper into this thing that I always loved, but I never realized how much more there was to it. And now all of a sudden I had access to all of these people who knew so much more than me, who had so much more experience than I did. And so I was just every week geeking out on the, the deepest of deep, you know, ideas and insights to this thing that for years and years I'd just been barely scratching the surface on. So I was ate up with it and, and there was so much to learn, so many questions to be answered. So it was kind of the perfect timing of me and my personal life and that part of my journey as a hunter mixed with it being in the infancy of this technology and this community and those things kind of align just at the right perfect time.
- [21:33]
A
Do you have any episodes from back then or when you got going that like you did the episode and you're like, this is that we've made it like that we had this guest. Like, this is, this is going to put us on the map?
- [21:46]
B
Ah, you know, probably like, you know, like the, like the, the, the big names especially, you know, I mean they're still big names now, but back then it was like I was talking to Jim Shockey. How is this possible? I'm talking to Lee and Tiffany. No way. You know, Mark Drury, those guys and gals were all people who were, who were well established well before I was. And so a huge draw for the audience. And then B, I think it in some ways gave what I was trying to do a little bit of credibility because it was like, hey, if, if, if Jim was willing to talk with this kid, then maybe he's not so bad after all. So I think those early episodes with some of those folks were helpful and I certainly appreciate those people taking time to, to do that.
- [22:34]
A
Yeah, yeah. And that's. And sometimes that's what it takes, right? I think, you know, whatever the reason, some, the first person says yes, it's like they see a little bit of themselves like their younger self in there, like, you know, trying to dive into this whole thing. I actually just had a score on a set of VHS tapes the other day. I found a marketplace and one of them, the reason I bought it is there was two old school turkey hunting, like VHS is in there. And one of them was HS Struts learning how to turkey call, which I actually have the cassette tape as well. So I've now have the match set, but then. But the other one was, I think it was from 1993. So I'd say old school, but I mean in the world of hunting content. But it was one of the Jury brothers. It was like Longbeard 7 or whatever, you know, like whatever the I cannot wait to get. Pull my V VCR out of storage so I can watch this and just see the old. Like, I want to. I'm trying to, like, cut it up and so I can do like a. Make a reel out of it and tag those guys in it. But, man, I was so pumped when it came across Marketplace.
- [23:39]
B
So. I love those old. Those old DVDs and those old videos. I don't. I don't have a VHS anymore. I'm jealous of you for that. But. But yeah, the old school stuff is kind of the best. It was still. So. I don't know if innocence the right word, but. But for lack of a better term, it was so innocent back then. I mean, like, everyone was just like, oh, this is so cool. Yeah. Yeah.
- [24:01]
A
I mean, because. Because one. There wasn't a lot of it. Right? Like, there.
- [24:04]
B
There's.
- [24:05]
A
It was a rare thing, people hauling cameras around in the woods and it. Because there the. The editing tools didn't exist like they do now. Right. Like, you know, a lot of that stuff, like the early days of hunting footage, they were legit, still cutting film, like, and, you know, cutting tape. And it was. There was a lot less computer editing and AI tools and all the stuff that we have today. And so I think the reason it's all that, like, old stuff is cool is because it feels more raw and relatable. Like, it. It's grainy and scratchy, but it almost feels like you're a little bit more. Like you're out there with them. Like, it's not a highlight reel. It's like long clips of one thing happening, you know, kind of thing. So it's. But yeah, I'm. I'm a big fan of all the old stuff. The guys at the Wild Turkey archives, have you seen. Have you. Follow them. Paul Campbell, Go follow anybody listening. If you. It's spring, so I have turkeys on the brain. Go follow Wild Turkey archives. They have been accumulating all the old turkey hunting content. VHS tapes, all of it. And then they're putting out clips from all the old stuff from Mossy Oak and. Real treat. I mean, just like across the board. It's. It's really cool. So nice.
- [25:21]
B
Yeah.
- [25:21]
A
Maybe I need to start doing on the deer side, like, just finding all of the old, like, western big game and deer stuff. All the old spins. Yeah.
- [25:28]
B
Oh, yeah. They'd eat that up.
- [25:30]
A
Yeah. Okay. So started a website, no formal training and writing websites. Started a podcast. How did you convince yourself that it was time to then write a book? Which if not, watching this, I'm holding up Mark's book in front of me.
- [25:49]
B
Yeah.
- [25:50]
A
Where did this stem from? Where did the, where was the transition into the passion about conservation public lands? Like, where'd that stem from?
- [26:01]
B
So, you know, as I was building Wired to Hunt and diving deeper and deeper into the world of hunting, I was simultaneously, you know, just reading about the whole history of all of it. You know, I was, you know, back to my earlier comment, I just have this insatiable desire to, to read and learn. So I'm just going down one rabbit hole and that takes me the next thing. It takes me the next thing. So I'm, I'm diving deep into something about whitetail habitat management. And then that takes me to, you know, Elder Leopold, and then that takes me to the sand county or Sand County Almanac, and then that takes me to the conservation history in America. And that takes me to Teddy Roosevelt. And then I'm reading about, you know, George Bird Grinnell or whoever it might be. That's kind of how my days and weeks and months would go. And eventually I was, I was discovering that all of this stuff that I loved so much, which part of it was, was deer hunting and hunting and fishing, but I also have spent a huge part of my life in those years, you know, traveling across the country, camping, hiking, backpacking, exploring our public lands, that was a big part of our life too. And I was starting to discover that this stuff didn't just get here by accident. I never realized that when I was a kid, when I was hunting public land as a kid, all, you know, my entire life growing up, we have a cabin that's near public land and that's where we went. I didn't realize when I traveled to a couple national parks as a child, you know, how these things came to be. And so I started to discover that. I started to realize that this incredible set of opportunities we have to hunt and fish and, and have wild places still to explore, that that wasn't guaranteed. And I started to realize that there's all sorts of things coming at them that could, you know, threaten the future of, you know, whether or not me or my buddies or maybe if I had kids someday, if they could see and experience these things. So, so in that time period, probably the early 2010s, I was starting to realize more and more that, that not only did I personally care about these things, but also that I wanted to try to figure out some way to help. And so this was a years long process of me trying to Figure out what that meant and how I could help and what I could do. But I did know, like, writing a book was always a dream. As you can see behind me, I love to read. So books are just like my, my on my not guilty pleasure. I don't feel guilty for reading books, but I read a ton. I love books, love going to bookstores. Like, it's just my thing. And so I knew, like the dream was a man. If I could ever create the thing that I love so much, if I could ever somehow pull off that magic trick on my own, that would be the most amazing project to ever try. So I knew it was like an out there dream. I just didn't know if it would be possible, how it would be possible, what I would actually write about, so on. But over the course of. I don't remember when the idea first really struck, but somewhere in that like 2014, 15, 16 time period, somewhere around there was when the public land transfer movement was really starting to pick up some momentum. And I was starting to learn about these ideas coming from some politicians to, to transfer or possibly sell off our public lands. And at that same time, I had also started spending my summers out west living on public lands. We were camping out of a camper. We were a couple for a couple summers. We rented some cabins, but we were out there surrounded by public lands all day, every day, for months and months out of a given year. And now I'm finding out that people are trying to get rid of this stuff. And so that really hit home for me. And I realized, you know, to my earlier point, I love these places. I love the animals out there. I love being able to hunt and fish and camp and backpack and raft and do all this stuff out there. And now it's threatened, now it might go away. How could that be? And so I had this, this, this kind of inciting question, which was, how do we get here? Like, how did, how is this possible? How did we get here? And then it kind of clicked for me, like, I wish there was a book like that and there wasn't at least a book that would be the kind of book that I was wanting to read, which was not just a textbook, but, but an adventure along the way. So that's what led to the idea of this book. And I had no right, you know, to think I could do it, to think that I was, was capable of doing it. But. But I decided I was going to try and I was able to, you know, get a literary agent with this idea. He liked this idea I had. I pitched, you know, had this whole book pitch, and then with a literary agent, we built out a book proposal and we shopped it around and got a book deal. And. And then for, I don't know, two or three years, it probably would have been. Was. Was writing it and traveling across the country, going on all of these different adventures, and. And eventually wrote, you know, that book that you just showed, which is an exploration of. Of the past, present, and future of America's public lands, and explored through a series of my own adventures out there on those public lands. And. And so that's. That's how it came about. It was a heck of a journey. It was. It was the hardest thing I'd ever done up to that point, but when it was all said and done, definitely the most rewarding, too.
- [31:10]
A
Yeah. Well, that's when our paths cross. Not while you're on your adventures for this book, but right around the same time as when I. You decided to write a book. I decided to build the school bus out.
- [31:21]
B
Yeah.
- [31:21]
A
And then. And then I. I'm trying to remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure the first time we met in person was in Boise, Idaho.
- [31:28]
B
I think you're right.
- [31:29]
A
Yep. And you had come and you. You came and filmed, like, a little tour of the school bus. And then I was talking to another friend before that, and they were like. They were like, do you know Mark Kenyon? I was like. I was like, no, I don't. And they're like, well, you need to know him because he wrote the book literally on public lands or is writing the book literally? I was like, well, yeah, of course. Of course. I need to know this guy. So. But, yeah, I mean, it was cool to finally, like. It's. It's funny when you look at how life, you know, we're all just, like, on our own course.
- [32:00]
B
Right.
- [32:00]
A
And sometimes you just intermix and cross paths with people like, that are kind of doing similar stuff, but in a different way. And so it was. It was cool to just, like, eventually intertwine, like, you know, our lives, like, in. For the Love of Public lands.
- [32:18]
B
Yeah.
- [32:19]
A
So, yeah, if anybody.
- [32:21]
B
Similar. Similar values.
- [32:22]
A
Right. Yeah. And I think that's. That's really what it is.
- [32:25]
B
Right.
- [32:25]
A
You just. You grow up doing kind of similar things and. And not really having an understanding of, like, how all that opportunity exists, like you said. And then all of a sudden you do, like, you start to research and figure that out and understand how the money flows through conservation and different legislation and whatever. And then, like you said, when there was the possibility of all the land transfer stuff for sell off, I had the exact same thought. It was like, you mean like at the time I didn't have kids, I was married. Like, I was like, what do you mean that this might not exist for like next generation? And it just hit something, hit me in the stomach and it was like, no, that's, you know, got to do something to help or try to help, you know, at least be able to raise awareness about this stuff even if I'm not, you know, can't figure out how to do boots on the ground work. Like, let's. How many people can we tell? So. But yeah, pretty cool. It's called that wild country. It's. It's a great book. Go get it.
- [33:23]
B
Read it.
- [33:25]
A
Better understand why all this stuff exists. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, so you write a book and then it was. Let's see, when did that, when did that book come out? 29.
- [33:38]
B
So it came out. Yeah, it came out at the end of 2019, I believe.
- [33:41]
A
Yeah. So book comes out 2019, and then Covid hits.
- [33:48]
B
Like I had one book tour event and then covet hit and shut the whole thing down.
- [33:52]
A
Yeah. One, one last thing about the book. My sister in law actually gifted the book to my brother Josh. And he, I was out visiting him in Colorado and I was like, oh, I was like, what do you think of that book? And he's like, oh, I really like it. He's like, I, you know, like, he's like, I can kind of like understand, like see myself like doing all this same type of stuff, you know, like, I really like how he writes. And I was like, well, you've met him. He's like, what do you mean? I was like, he's the one that came and did a tour on the bus when we were in Boise park, parked like three blocks from the event. Yeah. So it was pretty funny. And he's like, oh, okay, that's cool.
- [34:30]
B
I know.
- [34:31]
A
Actually met that guy.
- [34:33]
B
Hilarious.
- [34:34]
A
Okay, so book comes out, Covid hits, everything gets canceled. But then what? I'm trying to think of years here. When did, when did you end up. Where, where in the process did you end up with Meat Eater? Was that before. Was that before the book came out or right after?
- [34:50]
B
It was, it was a little bit before the book came out. It was after I started the book. So I was in the middle of the book process and actually like some of the stuff that's in the book is. Is, you know, where the mediator thing started in that. I remember the way this whole thing started with Meteor is that I was camped out in Grand Teton national park next to the Gros Ventre River. My wife and I, with our crappy old camper as described in the book. And I remember sitting there underneath the big leafy summer cottonwood tree, and I get a call, and it's Steve Rinella. And we did not have a relationship to that point where he would call me. We had, yeah, spent a little bit of time together, but him to call me was like a first. So I was surprised by that. And I pick up the phone, and he just kind of asked me. He's like, hey, what are you doing the first week of September? And I was like, I'm gonna go deer hunting in Montana, actually. He's like, wow, I think you should go caribou hunting with me in Alaska instead. And then he kind of just ended it there. And.
- [35:52]
A
Yep.
- [35:52]
B
He's like, I'll call you back tomorrow. I gotta go. And so I'm like, okay. Wow. And then the next day, I'm out fishing in the Teton river in Idaho, where you and I have spent some time together, and it's him again. And he then goes on to explain what he was going to be doing with Meteor. You know, prior to that, it had just been the TV show. And at this point, this was summer 2017, I guess, you know, he pitched to me that they were going to build it into this larger network, and he wanted me to bring my thing over with Wired Hunt and join the team and be one of those faces and voices of. Of this new thing they were trying to build. And. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how much you want me to dive into it, but the short version of what happened next was that, you know, I considered it and batted the idea around and struggled with the idea of, like, do I want to kind of give up my baby? Like, I. I had my own little thing. It was just me, and it was doing great, and I was perfectly happy. But I really respected Steve and his leadership in the world of wildlife and conservation and public lands. And I really wanted to be able to make an impact in that kind of capacity, too. I mean, this is. I was working on the book at that moment, so I had these goals and aspirations to try to make an impact, and. And I saw this opportunity to. To learn from one of the best, to partner with one of the best, and to try to do something that would be helpful to the future of hunting and fishing and wildlife and wild places. So, yeah, by the end of that year, I agreed to. To join the crew. And. And so it became official in early 2018 and have been there ever since.
- [37:29]
A
Man, that's crazy. Let's get, you know, almost a decade now, which is nuts. Yeah. Which, you know, just like that. So crazy. Yeah, yeah. Which. And your role there has evolved over time as well. I mean, have done a pile of cool projects. I mean the back 40 project that you guys did with that chunk of property that you gave away or ended up going to the National Deer Association.
- [37:53]
B
Yep.
- [37:53]
A
Right.
- [37:53]
B
Give it. Gave it to the National Deer association and they're still using it to this day for their field, the Fork mentorship program and some really cool projects out there.
- [38:02]
A
Yeah. And to now. Well, I want to. I want to dive into where you're at now. So I mean the, you know, a lot of the guys that I've looked up to in the public land sphere for a long time, you know, yourself included, but Ryan Callahan, who's now the CEO of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. So. And you've done. I mean, you've been one of the consistent voices when there is a fight to be had. I mean, obviously write the book, but even since then, so, you know, the last six, seven years post book, I mean, you've been one of the consistent voices when there's something that needs to be talked about, you're talking about it or you're interviewing somebody that has a better understanding of that topic. So I mean, it only made sense to shift into this role you're in now, which is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Director of Conservation at Meat Eater.
- [38:48]
B
Yeah, it sounds way too like formal.
- [38:50]
A
Corporate sounds too corporate or corporate like
- [38:53]
B
someone's like, so you're a director now. Do people report to you? I'm like, no, I basically nobody really listens to me any more than they used to. But a fancier title, I guess.
- [39:02]
A
Well, it just, you know, like title title or not, the. The role gives you the ability to kind of focus like be able to focus mediators energy on stuff that needs. It needs to be focused on.
- [39:14]
B
Yeah.
- [39:15]
A
So that. When did, when did you shift into that new role? Not that long ago.
- [39:20]
B
Yeah. So it became official, you know, I think sometime January of this year. So. Yeah, pretty recent. Yeah. You started considering the potential last fall when we knew that Cal was going to be moving on to bha. And yeah, to your point, I'd been working on this stuff and for. For a number of years have been partnering with Cal on many of our Conservation related projects have been kicking off a number of things on my own at the company. Had been, you know, participating all these different meetings in D.C. and with TRCP and BHA and was joining various boards and engaging. Basically I was any way I could find that I could engage on some conservation or public land related issue. I was trying to take that, you know, kind of similar to when I was, you know, in 2008 or nine, desperately trying to learn about everything I could about whitetail hunting and engaging on that. That's how I've felt on the conservation side over the last like five, six years is like, that's where I've recognized a calling and an opportunity to do something and so have been, have been seeking out those opportunities to make a difference if I could. And so when this came about, it was, it was an obvious yes and it was just really excited to be able to try to build off of what Cal and Steve have, have done over the years.
- [40:38]
A
Yeah. And so, you know, in four short months of this new role, you've been busy. What, what are some of the things that you have been working on and have going on coming up?
- [40:50]
B
Yeah, well, I think, you know, the first thing I wanted to do was, was try to take a second to pause and assess. So I spent weeks at the end of 2025 and the beginning of 2026 doing what I was kind of thinking is almost like a listening tour of sorts. I don't know if there's a better term for it, but, but talking to and reaching out to as many different people as I could within the conservation world, the nonprofit world, the business world, just the hunt fish world in general, the more traditional environmental community, even just, just try to pick as many different brains as I could to get a better sense of, you know, what can an organization like Meat Eater do to help what actually is needed? Where are there actually opportunities? What are the things that don't really help? What are the things that we've not done a good job of? What could we do better at? Where are the like places where help is desperately needed? That was what I was trying to figure out to help me then determine a plan to how we best utilize the resources that we have at Meteor to do something good. Because ultimately everybody who works at Meteor is there because we just, we just love hunting and fishing in the outdoors. It's what we eat, sleep and breathe. But also I think what's been a little bit unique about this group is that, you know, certainly influenced by how Steve kicked it all off and the ethos that he has is that we've always looked at this as very much, you know, with great. What's the word I'm looking for here? With, with resources, with opportunity, there comes a responsibility. And so we have this reach, we have this platform. People trust us and listen to us, and we have resources. So how do we make sure that we use all of that for the greater good and make sure that we can keep this stuff around for, for the generations to come? And so, so, yeah, I have been trying to figure out, you know, what that looks like in the short term for us and what that looks like in the long term. You know, of course, trying to find new ways to engage even more with, you know, the policy arena. So that's, you know, stuff you talked about when it comes to all the different news related to public lands. I'm actually flying to Washington D.C. tomorrow morning for a couple of days to meet with some elected officials and different folks there. And then also, how can we make an on the ground impact too? We've got a really cool program called our Land Access Initiative, and we need to have a, a new project for that. We try to have a project every year. So I was trying to figure out, okay, where can we identify a public land access opportunity where we might be able to invest our dollars and time and attention to, to grow public land access for hunters and anglers? So I've been seeking out and researching different opportunities on that front. And then also, you know, part of what I do is also coordinating, you know, how we build content around conservation issues. So how do we, you know, what's needed from the community? How can we educate people or entertain people or inform them on all these different things while still making it interesting and something people want to engage with? So I've been working with our podcast team and our video teams and our social media teams and editorial teams and all these folks to, to point us in the right direction and try new things. So, yeah, at this early stage, you know, four months in, there's a lot of that. I'm launching a new podcast that will be more focused on these kinds of issues. So we've been building that behind the scenes, starting to film a number of new projects that are. We're kind of creating like dedicated kind of feature film type projects now. They're focused on some conservation issues, so several of those are in the works. And then I'm wrapping up my next book, which is, is almost, almost done too. So there's been, there's been a lot of irons in the fire. Yeah.
- [44:37]
A
Well, congratulations on the next. Well, both the new podcast and the next book. That's awesome. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited for both of them.
- [44:45]
B
Yeah, me too. It's one of those things that just, like the first book, it's still the hardest thing I've ever done, the longest, hardest, never ending project of all time. But it's. It's one of those things that I do think that, you know, books uniquely have a shelf life, no pun intended, that's longer than most any other piece of content. There's a sense of permanence to it and so it'll be great to get that out into the world.
- [45:11]
A
Yeah. Can you talk about what that book is all about or do you want to just.
- [45:15]
B
Yeah.
- [45:15]
A
Leave it as a tease?
- [45:17]
B
No, I can, I can give you a preview. It's, it's. The plan is for it to come out in January 2027. The title, everything Could Change, I guess. But as of right now, the title is Before They're Gone. The Rough and Tumble Fight to Save America's Wildlife. And so the book takes a similar format to that Wild Country. Yeah. But instead of public lands being the main focus, this book, the main focus is Fish and Wildlife. So how do we get to where we are right now in America with Fish and Wildlife? Why are so many species in decline? And then uniquely, what can the hunting and fishing community offer the rest of the world when it comes to perspectives on how we can right the ship, how we can keep these critters around, and it's explored through a bunch of hunting and fishing and various other adventures I had over the last handful of years doing all sorts of crazy stuff. So that's, that's the next one, I'd
- [46:16]
A
imagine in the research for that one. Like, I'm excited that it, you know, it could potentially help, you know, do some of the, like, writing of the ship. But I would imagine in your research, there's some of that stuff where you see it and you're just like, oh, man, it's very doom and gloomy for certain things. I had just literally yesterday there was a biology teacher that had like a long. I'll have to send it to you. I'll have to find. I sent it to another buddy and I was like, in case you want like a little bit of heebie jeebies for the, you know, you're like, Sunday night. And he did this. It was like five minutes long. And he just talked about how quickly we're moving towards, like, massive ecosystem collapse. In certain places, like in the ocean and stuff. And I was like, oh, boy, this is different. This is, you know, this is the scariest that I've ever seen it put, like, in a short form. So I would imagine, like, as you're like, going through and like, writing this book, you like, see some of that stuff behind the scenes and like, in papers, you know, published papers and stuff, where you're like, oh, this is a. A far bigger issue than anyone's talking about at the moment.
- [47:20]
B
Yeah, you're 2000% right. You know, there's this line from Eldo Leopold that constantly was in my head. He said something along the lines of that the. The curse of an ecological education is discovering that you live in a world of wounds. And, and that has been true. Like, once you learn about this stuff, you all of a sudden see it all around you. And so, and so that was a big challenge as I wrote the book, was how do I bring this stuff to the reader's attention, to our community's attention, while not having this just be an absolute doom and gloom, despairing finger, fear mongering, depressing read. Right? Yeah. And so, and so, yes, like, I, I tried to position the book and frame my own personal experience and wrestling with this and putting the, the reader hopefully into my shoes as I was trying to process this and make sense of. Yes. And so what I found was that as I struggled with these newfound discoveries, that I was having my eyes open to that the greatest cure for that depression that might follow those discoveries was action. It was finding, okay, well, now what. What can I do? There's always something that you can do to make things a little bit better. And so the first half of the book, kind of two thirds, is exploring kind of five illustrating examples of what's happening out there. I went on these five big trips, and they kind of highlight broader things that are impacting fish and wildlife all over the place. But then the second half of the book explores then the now what. What's the work that we could do? What are, what are different ways that hunters and anglers and other folks are finding opportunities to. To. To move things in a better direction. And so really wanted to focus on these examples of hope, these ways and opportunities that we can create the world that we want to live in, create the world that we want our kids and our grandkids to experience. And I think that one of the really cool things about the hunting and fishing community and our history is that, you know, unique to the traditional environmental movement, which, you know, there's a lot of stuff you could say about that. But the hunting and fishing kind of hunt fish conservation movement has uniquely had a very, you know, pull up your bootstraps and get to work kind of ethic. Our approach to conservation has been very grounded in what do we do now, how do we make this piece of ground better, how do we change this thing ourselves without anybody else forcing it upon us or without anybody else giving us permission. We're just going to do it. We're going to rally thousands of people to go pull down barbed wire fences or we're going to restore these rivers ourselves for the trout, whatever it might be. There's so many amazing examples of the hunting and fishing community doing that. And I think there's something that the broader environmental world can learn from them. And I think it also is, is this amazing source of energy. One thing I found is that when you go and do something like yourself, with your own hands or with your own energy in whatever way that is it, it builds like a reservoir inside of you that then leads to you wanting and being able to, and having the excitement and energy to do more and to make more of a difference. So it's like a snow that can happen. And that's what I felt in my own life. And I think I've seen, I have seen a bunch of examples of this now as I've sought, you know, searched out these different stories and projects and people. And so I've, I've left this project with a clear eyed view of the real, real challenges that we're facing, but also true belief that we have the people, the capacity, the opportunity to, to fix things. In many cases it's just a matter of taking that first step and then keeping on rolling down the hill.
- [51:10]
A
Yeah, well, that's good. I'm excited to give that one a read and get a better understanding of all that stuff. Because you know, admittedly when it comes to like the conservation side of things, like when it comes to public land issues, have a pretty good grasp of that. Just have done a lot of talking and listening about it for a decade now. When it comes to fish and wildlife themselves, I'm, I would say I'm fairly naive as to like what actually works. So, you know, I have anecdotal evidence for certain things, but I'm, you know, I just, that's one thing that I need to like get a better grasp of and talk to people that do understand it. So that's, that's going to be a good read.
- [51:46]
B
You're gonna copy you're gonna have a copy coming your way as soon as they're available.
- [51:50]
A
Yes. Can't wait. So, two things before I let you leave. Yeah. So one, I got to hear about the bison hunt. We're going to. We're. We're going to do that last. I want. I just. I want to hear the story. Yeah. About how that came together. And then two, we got to talk about Tucker Town. Yes. So why don't you talk about Tucker Town first, and then we'll finish up with a hunt story.
- [52:12]
B
Awesome. So, yeah. So speaking of. Of possible positive, you know, stories to share, this is. This is a situation that, you know, looks like a threat at first, but showcases an opportunity. So there's a swath of ground in central North Carolina called the Tuckertown game lands. It's 4,000 acres of land along the Tucker Town Reservoir. Great deer hunting, turkey hunting, there's waterfowl, there's bobwhite quail. Great fishing in that reservoir there. And for 60 years, this landscape has been owned by Alcoa, but made accessible to the public for all of that time. It's kind of a long, complicated story of how all that came together. But for more than six decades, hunters and anglers out there have just assumed that this was public land. The. The North Carolina Wildlife Commission, I think, did some management out there. So it just felt like public land. But now all of a sudden, Alcoa has to sell it, and they're putting it up on the market. And, you know, it's. It's going to be good as gone if someone else, if a mining company or if a home developing company or whatever wants to buy it. But there's a land trust there locally that has decided to try to do something about it. And so they kicked off a campaign at the beginning of this year, which now we at Meteater and Onyx have jumped on board with to try to kind of put some rocket fuel on it. And the idea is to try to raise funds both from, you know, hunters and anglers like you and me and anyone listening, and then hopefully maybe some larger institutional groups that maybe have some grants or bigger dollars to try to buy this land or as much of this land as we possibly can and transfer it to the state of North Carolina to officially make it public land forever and keep it there, to be able to hunt and fish for as long as we could possibly want. So that's what the Tucker Town situation is. And in our kind of contribution to it, what we're trying to do is we're running a 30 day matching initiative. So Meteor and Onyx both put up $100,000 to create a $200,000 matching pool. So basically, if you donate any money between now and May 14th, we'll match it until that $200,000 cap is hit. And so we're hoping to get a lot of attention on this and just get a lot of folks aware of what's happening down there, how important this place is to so many sportsmen and women in that neck of the country and hopefully help them get hopefully a parcel or two of this piece acquired and momentum going to keep it and to make us this all come, you know, to fruition.
- [54:46]
A
That's. That's pretty awesome. What is the. This podcast will actually go out on the 20. What is it on the 22nd. So tomorrow. Perfect. Yeah. So this is perfect timing for this. What's the. Over 55,000 has been raised so far. Where are we at right now?
- [55:02]
B
Yeah, so last checked Yesterday, which was six days into the campaign and yeah, it was $55,000 as of then. And, and there's like some, some rumblings and rumors of maybe some bigger dollars coming from some other folks too.
- [55:14]
A
So.
- [55:15]
B
So I think what we're. We're getting some of that attention that we were hoping for, these guys and I think that can lead to good things. I forgot to mention, if folks want to donate, which, which I would just love if they would do that, you can go to savetuckertown.org that is the URL. And. And yeah, great progress so far. And we're just going to keep on singing it from the rooftops and, and hopefully help keep 4,000 acres of public land public in the future.
- [55:41]
A
That's awesome. Well, I'll make sure that. So Cody does the editing on the audio side of this. I'll make sure that he puts it in the show notes when it goes up tomorrow. Awesome. I'll add that to the. Yeah, absolutely. Very cool. And I will go make a donation myself. I'm a sucker for all of those. I wonder how much I should probably add that up every year. Like how many like random fundraisers that I'm donating to. Cuz I'm. I'm like, yep. Cuz I. There's so many people that donate to stuff that we raise money for that I'm like, I just. I got to return the favor. So I'll. Yeah. Help spread the word.
- [56:12]
B
Good karma.
- [56:13]
A
That's right. That's right. What is. Okay, let's talk bison hunt before we go.
- [56:18]
B
Let's talk Bison hunt, man, I got 600 pounds of bison meat in the freezer. Can you imagine?
- [56:23]
A
I'm so jealous.
- [56:25]
B
It's crazy. It's crazy. So what do you want to know? How much, how much of this story do you want?
- [56:31]
A
Let's do give us the five minute rendition of this bison hunt. So, like, how long have you been planning this?
- [56:38]
B
So the, the short version of the story is that this didn't begin really as a bison hunt. This began as one of these conservation films. There's a project underway up in northern Montana called the American Prairie.
- [56:54]
A
Have you heard about it? Oh, yeah.
- [56:55]
B
So it's had some controversy and some news in recent months lately. Kind of, it's kind of on the, it's on people's minds. But to, to give you the, the broadest kind of overview of what this thing is, it's basically an attempt to privately fund the acquisition of land up in north central Montana to connect two huge chunks of public land and create one really large potential wildlife reserve where we can see the wildlife that used to exist across the Great Plains. Back on it again in numbers to some degree closer to what it used to be. Like, we don't have a big Grasslands national park like we do in, in the mountain ecosystems or in the canyon ecosystems. So the idea is like, hey, let's just raise money and try to do it ourselves. Kind of like, you know what we're trying to do with the Tucker town, right? It's like, let's get people, the individuals, we don't need to worry about the government, let's just do it ourselves. That's kind of what they've been trying to do with the American Prairie. But it's had some controversy. There's some people who don't like the idea. So I was curious about this, this broad suggestion, like, is this possible for private individuals and organizations to, to be, to represent the next generation of our big conservation dreams in America? Is this where things are headed? Is this a good thing? Is this concerning thing? What's the good, what's the bad, what's possible, what's the progress? Been there so far? What's it like? I had all these questions and I thought, hey, we should just go do an exploration of that. Let's, let's put together a project, dive into it deep, talk to a lot of different people and go see this place on the ground ourselves. And so as we started building out this plan, we got permission from American Prairie to go out there and speak with people and build this thing out. And through those Discussions. One of my friends and colleagues at metedder. His. His wife used to work with American prairie, and she was aware of, you know, the hunting program they have out there and opportunities and tags and. And through this, we were able to get an opportunity for me to hunt a bison out there. Sweet. So. And so, yeah, I got to spend a handful of days actually tagging along and helping with a wounded warrior hunt out there, which is just a incredible experience. And got the chance to see this incredible landscape, and then after that was, you know, was able to just roam and. And just see this. Just a stunning place. I mean, tens and tens and tens of thousands of. Of just rolling grassland, tens and tens of thousands of acres of rolling grasslands and sagebrush and coolies and canyons and, you know, my whole life, especially once I was like a teenager and kind of knew the stories of Lewis and Clark and everything. Every time you go west and head over the Great Plains, I just remember coming over these big grassy hills and always thinking to myself, man, what must it have been like 200, 250 years ago, you know, when you come over a hill like this and there was 5,000 bison or. Yeah, hundred thousand bison and all of these, you know, herds of pronghorn and mule deer and elk and all this stuff. Gosh, that must have been so incredible to see. And now I was able to go somewhere that was able to experience some degree of that. You know, I was able to look over tens of thousands of acres of. Of some land owned by American Prairie, some land owned by the Bureau of Land Management, and you could just go and go and go and go, and there's no fences, there's no other people. There's nothing but just like, group of 30 antelope running over here. And then there's a herd of 40 mule. They're over there, and then here's 500 bison over here. It was just spectacular. I got to. Got to watch a sage grouse lek and get to see them do their whole breeding, mating ritual dances. I mean, that was one of the coolest things I've ever seen. So. So, yeah, spectacular place. And then to, you know, get to participate as a hunter. You know, I've seen a lot of bison in my day. I've spent a lot of time in Yellowstone and Theodore Roosevelt national park and a whole bunch of places like that. But as you know, Sam, like, seeing an animal when you're out there, just an observer, is totally different than when you are actually, you know, flipping the switch to being a hunter. And so when all of a sudden you're looking at that animal as a. As a species that you're pursuing, you notice everything different. You pay attention to everything differently. So. So yeah, just got to know bison in a brand new way, such a cool way. I mean, they are incredible animals. They are probably the. The other huge thing was when I actually was able to finally get a shot at one that, you know, they're big. I've always known they're big, but you don't really know how big they are until you were actually right next to one. And then it's like, oh, my God, I just killed a dinosaur. I mean, just. Just crazy. So. So, yeah, we were out there for, I think, six or seven days total. And the last day was able to find a. A herd of like, the. The. The males bachelor up, just like, you know, a whole lot of critters that we chase. So there's these bachelor groups of bulls. And I was trying to find just a big old gnarly bull and. And found a group of, I think it was six of them in a spot where I would be able to have terrain in my favor. So I was able to kind of drop down this other side of this ridge, do a big end around to get downwind of them. They're bedded down middle of the day, just chilling, and was able to come over this ridge and belly crawl for, I don't know, 50, 60 yards to the lip. And then I got over this lip after getting a lot of cactus in my hands, and. And there was the big old guy like 80, 85 yards away. And. And so I just laid prone and he was napping and relaxing. And I just waited until finally he stood up to kind of shift position and swat away a couple flies and was able to get a shot. And I mean, it's all kind of surreal. You never, never imagined that you'd get to do that. And I think the coolest thing is that, you know, if this project works out in such a way that it, you know, can. Can mitigate for the concerns that some people have, and if it can make sure that we can keep access the way that they say they're going to be able to keep it and keep hunting opportunities the way they say they're going to keep it, if that all comes to fruition, it would be such a cool thing if hunting buffalo wasn't a dream that everybody has but assumes they'll never get to do. Instead, maybe someday there is 10,000 of them out there and. And so many others and other Places where like our kids someday could be like, oh yeah, I'm going to do a bison hunt.
- [63:27]
A
Oh yeah, every tag.
- [63:28]
B
Yeah, everybody gets to go do a bison hunt once every 10 years or 20 years or it's, it's not like a crazy thing, it's like possible. That would be so cool because that has been, you know, one of the most long running hunting traditions on this continent ever. Right. I mean folks have been hunting bison in North America for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years. And to get to participate in that actually as a hunter myself, was really a powerful, incredible experience.
- [63:57]
A
That, that, I mean, that's awesome. I'm hoping that someday in the, I'm in the next few years I'm going to try and get out on a bison hunt. I've got enough points in one spot where I think I could maybe draw a non trophy bison. So but just to go, like you said, have that experience and kind of like tap into like what we've been doing forever is going to be, is going to be very cool.
- [64:20]
B
So highly recommend it.
- [64:22]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Mark, thank you so much for taking the time to hop on with me today where what's the best place for people to follow along and then, yeah, just parting words to go get people to donate to Tucker Town or whatever.
- [64:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, I mean they can follow, you know, what I'm doing personally probably best on Instagram. That's where I'm the most active. And so that handle is Mark Kenyon official used to be wired to hunt, but now that I'm doing all this other stuff, it seemed to be good to have a separate wired hunt count. And now my Mark Kenyon official account. So that's kind of everything I'm doing will be shared there and then, you know, across Mediator. That's where the podcasts live. That's where the YouTube and the films and all the different things that we're doing there. So definitely follow Mediator on social. We've got a news account as well, Mediator News. And so that's where more of this conservation stuff's showing up. The new book comes out in January like I mentioned, so keep tabs and keep an eye out for that. And then, yeah, biggest thing is let's save tucker town. Save tuckertown.org is the place to donate. And I just, I'll pass along the message from Travis who's the executive director for this land trust and who lives there locally and who grew up hunting this place. It means so much to them there locally in this area. That, you know, to this point, people have donated from 49 states already, Canada and Europe as well. So the hunting and fishing community, they're. They're stepping up, they're helping out. Even though, you know, for a lot of us, North Carolina is a long ways away, and we may never go there ourselves. But I think that hunters and anglers have, you know, for decades and decades shown that we care about things beyond just what we get to do and experience right now here and today. Right. We care about the future generations, and we care about conservation and public lands and wildlife, whether it's in Maine or Montana or Minnesota or North Carolina. And so this is. This is showing that in a really wonderful way, and I'm appreciative of it.
- [66:18]
A
Yeah. I was going to say, I mean, there's a good chance that I will never set foot on that chunk of property, but then by donating and getting involved in stuff like that, I know that if something happens in my neck of the woods or something I care deeply about, I know that people across the country will step up and help with that as well. So. Yeah. Mark, thanks again for hopping on, and we'll hopefully get to cross paths in person sooner than later.
- [66:42]
B
Let's do it. Thanks, Sam.