Are We Getting Dumber? | Ep 003 - Lemonade Stand 🍋

Summary

Podcast Summary: Lemonade Stand Episode 003 - "Are We Getting Dumber?"

Host/Authors: Aiden, Atrioc, and DougDoug
Release Date: March 20, 2025
Episode Title: Are We Getting Dumber? | Ep 003 - Lemonade Stand 🍋

---

Introduction

In the third episode of the Lemonade Stand podcast, hosts Aiden, Atrioc, and DougDoug delve into the pressing question: "Are We Getting Dumber?" This episode intertwines discussions about cognitive decline, the impact of technology and societal changes on education, the advent of AI in learning, and shifts in the business landscape, including a deep dive into Tesla's autonomous driving technology and the controversial Jones Act affecting American shipbuilding. The conversation is laced with humor, personal anecdotes, and spirited debates, making complex topics accessible and engaging.

---

Are We Getting Dumber?

Discussion on Cognitive Decline

The episode kicks off with a discussion about a Financial Times article questioning whether humans have surpassed their peak cognitive abilities. Brandon synthesizes the main points:

"The theory here is that beginning in 2012, adults and teenagers have reported marked declines in their ability on math and reading scores and their general ability to concentrate." [05:06]

Potential Causes

The hosts explore various factors contributing to this perceived decline:

• Smartphone Proliferation:
  Aiden posits that the rise of smartphones around 2010 correlates with the decline in cognitive abilities. He states:

  "2010 is the year that smartphones took over 50% of the population." [08:34]

• Infinite Scrolling and Information Overload:
  The constant stimulation from platforms like TikTok and Twitter fosters a habit of avoiding discomfort, reducing the brain's ability to process and retain information.

  "Infinite scrolling on media to where it kind of like anytime you get in discomfort, you just move on to the next thing." [09:00]

• COVID-19 Pandemic:
  Doug highlights the disruption caused by the pandemic, noting its impact on students' ability to concentrate and adhere to traditional educational structures.

  "The last wave of kids who are really messed up by Covid are finally like starting to leave the school system." [07:05]

Personal Anecdotes and Studies

Brandon shares his personal experience of declining verbal articulation and reduced reading habits since high school, linking it to decreased vocabulary and communication skills. The hosts reference studies indicating significant declines in reading and math proficiency, alongside broader issues like increased illiteracy.

---

AI in Education

Benefits of AI Tutors

The conversation shifts to the transformative potential of Artificial Intelligence in education. Doug and Brandon discuss Alpha School, an institution leveraging AI tutors to provide individualized learning experiences. They cite impressive results where AI-assisted education has enabled students to achieve learning milestones far beyond traditional methods.

"In Nigeria, they had a six-week program where the AI math tutor helped students gain an extra year of learning." [25:57]

Tailored Learning Experiences

Aiden emphasizes the effectiveness of one-on-one tutoring, comparing it to AI-driven personalized education:

"There's an extra year of learning with AI tutors because they tailor everything to the student's interests." [28:38]

Downsides and Challenges

Despite the benefits, the hosts acknowledge significant challenges:

• Cheating and Academic Integrity:
  The ease with which students can use AI to bypass genuine learning raises concerns about the future of academic standards.

  "Now it's a race to the bottom where everyone is cheating at all times." [32:19]

• Potential Replacement of Traditional Teaching Roles:
  There's a discussion on how AI might render certain educational roles obsolete, shifting teachers from traditional instruction to more of a mentorship and support system.

  "Teachers shift from traditional roles like grading to supporting students' emotional and motivational needs." [26:02]

Future Implications

The hosts express optimism about AI's role in revolutionizing education but recognize that current systems are struggling to adapt, leading to a "destruction phase" before the benefits can be fully realized.

"New technology, it's destructive at first and then you start getting the gains." [34:00]

---

Tesla vs. Luminar: Autonomous Driving Technology

Mark Rober's Comparative Analysis

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to critiquing a video by Mark Rober, a prominent science YouTuber, who compared Tesla's camera-based autonomous driving system to Luminar's LIDAR technology. The hosts dissect the methodologies and implications:

• Testing Limitations:
  Doug points out that Rober used Tesla's Autopilot instead of the Full Self-Driving (FSD) version, skewing the results unfairly.

  "He didn't use Tesla's full self-driving technology; he used the old system from five years ago." [46:16]

• Market Impact:
  The video significantly affected stock prices, with Luminar's stock soaring by 25% following Rober’s demonstration of LIDAR’s superiority in adverse conditions.

  "Luminar stock increased by 25% after the video." [44:09]

• Technical Criticisms:
  The hosts highlight inconsistencies in the video, such as delayed activation of Autopilot during tests, which undermines the credibility of the comparison.

  "He activates Autopilot late, affecting the outcome unfairly." [48:28]

Future of Autonomous Vehicles

The discussion extends to the broader implications for the future of self-driving cars, Tesla's strategic decisions against LIDAR, and the ongoing debate about the best technological approach for autonomous navigation.

"What exactly are our standards as Americans or humans near cars to like, how good does it have to be?" [54:25]

---

The Jones Act and American Shipbuilding

Understanding the Jones Act

Brandon educates listeners on the Jones Act, a U.S. law enacted in 1920 to support American shipbuilding and ensure that domestic shipping occurs on U.S.-built and operated vessels.

"The Jones Act is a law that requires any water-based shipping between American ports to be done by a ship built in the U.S., owned by a U.S. company, and crewed by Americans." [59:00]

Current Implications and Challenges

The hosts discuss how the Jones Act, intended to bolster American maritime capabilities, has led to unintended economic consequences:

• Decline of U.S. Shipyards:
  The law has inadvertently caused the collapse of the American shipbuilding industry, with over 55% of global shipbuilding now dominated by China, Korea, and Japan.

  "As of 2018, 91% of shipbuilding happens in China, Korea, and Japan." [61:53]

• Economic Strain on Isolated States:
  States like Hawaii and territories like Puerto Rico suffer from exorbitant shipping costs due to limited competition, leading to higher prices for goods and inefficiencies in supply chains.

  "Shipping costs for places like Hawaii and Puerto Rico are extremely high because of the Jones Act." [62:25]

• Impact During Disasters:
  The episode references Hurricane Maria, where the Jones Act hampered the swift delivery of emergency supplies, necessitating temporary waivers.

  "During Hurricane Maria, the Jones Act was temporarily lifted to allow emergency supplies to reach Puerto Rico." [64:15]

Potential Solutions and Debates

The hosts contemplate possible remedies:

• Repeal of the Jones Act:
  Advocated as a means to reduce shipping costs and revive the American shipbuilding industry, though it risks national security concerns.

  "The Jones Act didn't protect American shipbuilding as intended; it's harming the economy instead." [70:26]

• Government Subsidies:
  An alternative proposal is to subsidize the shipbuilding industry to make American-built ships more competitive without outright repeal.

  "I would rather have government subsidies to make U.S. shipbuilding competitive." [70:22]

Economic and Geopolitical Considerations

Brandon and Aiden discuss the broader geopolitical ramifications, emphasizing that without a robust American shipbuilding industry, the nation may become overly reliant on foreign ships, posing security risks.

"If we go to war, the U.S. can't build ships or other essentials because of the weakened shipbuilding industry." [71:42]

---

HR SaaS Drama: Rippling vs. Deal

Competitive Tensions and Legal Battles

Transitioning to the business realm, the hosts explore the escalating rivalry between HR SaaS companies Rippling and Deal:

• Aggressive Marketing Tactics:
  Both companies engage in contentious marketing battles, with Deal initially attacking Rippling and Rippling retaliating with creative defenses.

  "Deal vs. Rippling was like Coke versus Pepsi for HR services." [77:37]

• Allegations of Espionage:
  Rippling sues Deal, accusing them of cultivating a spy within their organization to steal trade secrets. The alleged spy's dramatic escape after attempting to hide his phone highlights the intense rivalry.

  "The alleged spy fled after trying to hide his phone, complicating the legal battle." [83:00]

Industry Impact and Ethical Concerns

The conflict underscores broader issues within the competitive tech industry, including ethics in business practices and the lengths companies will go to undermine rivals.

---

Audience Feedback and Closing Remarks

Personal Stories and Social Impacts

The hosts share and respond to listener comments, particularly focusing on the long-term effects of the COVID-19 pandemic on socialization and education. Brandon recounts how isolation during high school impacted his social skills and relationships in college, a sentiment echoed by many listeners.

"I was already really introverted and took advantage of isolation, which now affects my social life." [87:51]

Clarifying Misunderstandings

Addressing misconceptions, the hosts emphasize the importance of good faith in discussions, urging listeners to avoid assumptions and engage thoughtfully with differing viewpoints.

"Just assume that you have it wrong and believe in the common decency." [89:38]

Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with a blend of humor and earnestness, as the hosts recap key points and tease future episodes. They encourage continued audience engagement through comments and shared experiences, fostering a community eager to explore and understand the complexities of the business world.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "Smartphones took over 50% of the population in 2010, correlating with cognitive decline." – Aiden [08:34]
• "Infinite scrolling prevents the brain from getting comfortable with discomfort, hindering deep thought." – Aiden [09:00]
• "In Nigeria, AI math tutors enabled students to achieve two years' worth of learning in six weeks." – Brandon [25:57]
• "Mark Rober used Tesla's Autopilot, not the Full Self-Driving version, skewing his LIDAR comparison." – Doug [46:16]
• "The Jones Act was meant to protect American shipbuilding but ended up harming the economy instead." – Brandon [74:57]
• "Allowing AI in education could revolutionize learning but also poses risks like rampant cheating." – Aiden [33:05]

---

Conclusion

Episode 003 of Lemonade Stand offers an intricate exploration of cognitive decline in the modern age, the transformative yet challenging role of AI in education, the technical and market dynamics of autonomous driving technologies, and the profound economic impacts of protectionist laws like the Jones Act. The hosts balance informative discourse with relatable humor, inviting listeners to critically engage with the evolving landscape of business and technology.

Transcript

[Doug]

Did you know that if you go to x.com the everything app, and you submit the winning college basketball bracket for March Madness, you could win a trip to Mars. This is a real thing that's on Twitter. And so what I'm thinking is, because we have a big audience now, if every one of our viewers, we all submit a different bracket, but we put Atrio's name, then one of us will win, and then Elon will kidnap him and send him to Mars and we'll finally be rid of you.

[Aiden]

Is that what you're thinking is. You know what I'm thinking? I think after our episode last week where you defended Elon Musk, he reached out and hired you as an ad man to promote his business.

[Doug]

Don't worry. Whatever is submitted, he will win the contest.

[Brandon]

I do like that it says. It says win a free trip to Mars. But then after that, best bracket wins 100k. Kind of is it. So do you get both or does it imply that if you put together the best.

[Aiden]

Are you going to show us to Mars with no money? You're going to be broke.

[Brandon]

I would hate to be broke.

[Doug]

No, he puts it on Mars.

[Aiden]

Yeah. You have to get there.

[Doug]

Ready? Player one. That's his. That's where he leaves his inheritance on Mars and then the rest of humanity has to go get it.

[Brandon]

He's been weirdly quiet about Mars. Have you noticed, in the past few years, because he kind of, you know, the whole thing with him blowing past Tesla deadlines used to be blowing past the Mars deadline.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And we'd be like, we're going to Mars this year. We're going to Mars this year.

[Aiden]

He did say something.

[Brandon]

And we've left him.

[Aiden]

I think today he said Mars in 20 years, maybe 30.

[Doug]

He told. He said it was like five years.

[Aiden]

No, I four years ago.

[Brandon]

Finally a realistic timeline. I. I was talking. We have this discord now that we started the show. And I think I. I put in that chat. I was like, as much as an Elon hater as I am, part of me gets excited every time he drops the Mars deadline.

[Aiden]

Oh, dude. I mean, the Mars would be.

[Brandon]

I want that to happen in my lifetime.

[Aiden]

It would be sick to go.

[Doug]

You like. No matter how much you hate Elon, like, you got to admit that when the starship caught with the two chopsticks and the space.

[Brandon]

Awesome.

[Doug]

Cinema, right?

[Aiden]

Yeah, it was cinema.

[Doug]

So good.

[Aiden]

I mean, my. The win. Win would be if Elon goes to Mars. My dream. And he's farther away from me.

[Doug]

Elon and atrock And Mars together, you.

[Brandon]

Two chopping it up.

[Aiden]

Buddy Cops film where we have to learn to get along.

[Brandon]

And you have 100k in your pocket.

[Aiden]

Because I won the March Madness telling.

[Brandon]

You, telling your kids I showed up. Mars, only 100k in my pocket. Turns out you couldn't buy anything with it.

[Aiden]

And I built this future for us.

[Brandon]

I. I do have a few topics I want to list for the audience before we.

[Aiden]

I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. Stop.

[Brandon]

You don't even want it.

[Aiden]

No, before you tell me these topics. What? This is a nice thing that I'm doing. I need to do a nice thing for you. Ok? I need to do a nice thing for you. And that nice thing is that we need to talk about safe spaces. I think, actually, I think Perry has.

[Brandon]

I think we need to talk about how you need to use an iPad.

[Aiden]

Okay.

[Brandon]

You need to figure out how you use.

[Aiden]

It's the hostility. You're bringing that over from the other podcast now, if you guys don't know at home, Aiden is also part of another podcast called the Yard. Okay. I'm happy to say their name. And they bully him a lot. And I didn't notice this, but they pointed this out. If you could pull up the tweet from. Let's watch this. Let's watch this real quick. This is where they show.

[Brandon]

Use Google Translate to talk to my Uber driver. I know, I know.

[Aiden]

Okay, freeze frame right there. He says, I use Google trailers. I'm Uber driver. And then pauses like a dog it's about to be beaten. Because they make fun of him so much for just talking to Uber drivers on that podcast.

[Brandon]

They make fun of me for talking to people. So I was just like. Instinctively, I was like, yep, hit. Let it hit. And then you guys just didn't say anything.

[Aiden]

Look at his face. He's afraid. You don't have to be afraid. Here is what I'm trying to tell you.

[Brandon]

This is a safe space.

[Aiden]

This is a safe space. You can tell me the topics.

[Brandon]

And now I can tell you the topics.

[Aiden]

I want you to know, like, it's okay.

[Brandon]

I'm excited to tell you the topics. Well, everyone, this week. This week, we're talking about. How is everyone getting stupider?

[Doug]

Yeah, you would talk about that, you bitch.

[Aiden]

Dumbass.

[Brandon]

So we'd like this to be one.

[Doug]

Of the first two episodes.

[Brandon]

I was really settling into my safe space, so. And also the fallout of Mark Rober's suspiciously timed video.

[Aiden]

Oh, yeah.

[Brandon]

It feels like he listened to our app and then kind of just pumped that out.

[Aiden]

Stole your content. Yeah, yeah.

[Brandon]

And. And some drama that's been going on in the wake of that. And then also in this era of protectionism in the U.S. i wanted to bring up a little law called the Jones act, which is really interesting, just to help demonstrate some of the costs of enacting, you know, even good intentions behind protectionist legislation. Talking about something that isn't tariffs for once in the. In the context of protectionism, too. And also, we want to do some follow ups on comments and people's feedback from the last couple episodes. Squeeze that into it.

[Aiden]

Sounds awesome. About the Jones Act. It's really funny because you guys were talking before the pod started about how, like, isn't it crazy how things like that are so effective and then some people don't even know what it's about? And I was like, I have no. I have no idea. So I'll be the voice of the people on this one trying to learn about the Jones act from you. I haven't heard about this, but I.

[Brandon]

Think you wanted to intro, right? Your topic was I do.

[Aiden]

I want to call you stupid. And I want to call you stupid. And I want to call Perry stupid. And I want to call myself stupid.

[Brandon]

It was a safe space for like maybe 15 years, by the way.

[Doug]

All right, so before you do that, why don't you spend 30 minutes pulling up a tweet to call us stupid to do that.

[Aiden]

Okay, we've got it.

[Doug]

Can you find a tweet that calls us stupid in under an hour?

[Aiden]

Better than that.

[Doug]

Okay.

[Aiden]

A Financial Times article asking, have humans passed peak brain power? That's sort of the opening topic here I want to talk about is. Well, let me ask you a sincere question first, and I'm going to ask Aiden first, because I have a specific example. Do you think you're smarter or dumber than you were when you made this video in 2012?

[Brandon]

Master Kevin 45 here.

[Aiden]

Do you think you're smarter, Be honest. Than when you made this video? Are you smarter or dumber?

[Brandon]

I know it's a little mark, but I'm really happy on the whole I'm smarter, but it's. It's closer than I'd like to admit.

[Aiden]

Okay, so that's the. That's sort of the. The theory here is that beginning in 2012, adults and teenagers have reported marked declines in their ability on math and reading scores and their general ability to concentrate. Difficulty thinking or concentrating difficulty, trouble learning new things. Around 2012 is when it is. When it like starts to decline and it's been measurably rising or declining in this case ever since. Wait, so up in science, reading, math, numerous illiteracy.

[Brandon]

What is a little surprising to me is up until 2012, you're saying that it was, it was still trending upwards or it was like stagnant and then it dropped.

[Aiden]

Like, do you know, I don't have the data. I mean it looks like 2000, 6012 is pretty full flat.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

So I would say the 2000s that we peaked, but like it's been rising, flattened out and now it is declining as of 2012. And you know, that's, I think. Do you have any thought, like, Doug, what's your first thought? When, when, when I first thought.

[Doug]

I think you and I graduated around 2012. We hit the peak, baby. Fucking God, dude.

[Brandon]

Truly representative of the cognitive decline.

[Doug]

I mean, I have thought so. I, like, I talked to a teacher friend of mine about like kids and what's been going on. I think we, as we talk about it, probably need to separate Covid. My friend, who's a high school teacher was saying right now, the last, the way he phrased it, the last wave of kids who are really messed up by Covid are finally like starting to leave the school system.

[Aiden]

They got rid of them.

[Doug]

Yeah, but like, but like they are so messed up. And the way he phrased it was like, these are kids who justifiably have no sense of authority when it comes to like schooling or teaching or parents or anything because there's this two year period where they were just at home and could do whatever they wanted. And he said as a teacher, there was no way to discipline anybody or stop them from just playing Minecraft all day long. And so the structures that we were told as a kid of you have to listen to your parents and go to school and do these things, just completely collapsed. And so he said they're kind of getting used to it again. And people, the younger kids who were younger during COVID are now sort of back into the way our education. Right. Of the rhythm of how we have traditionally done things. So it sounds like that has really messed things up. And then for me there's a broader question of like, is it a good thing that our school system is dramatically changing? Because my sense from this article is less that people are dumber and more that people are not doing well on our traditional way of grading intelligence.

[Brandon]

Well, I wanted to dig in. What is the, is there more information here about like the context of why this is happening or how this is measured, like what. What is the rest of the.

[Aiden]

Nobody has an exact answer on why, but they posit some couple things. One is that people are reading less than average. So the decline of reading is pretty dramatic. Again, right around 2010, 2012. And I want to say 2010 is the year that is the year that smartphones took over 50% of the population. So once you say phones bad, everyone loses their mind. But that is like the obvious conclusion they're leaning towards.

[Doug]

You think phones are. You get to be the villain this episode. Yes. I was going to believe he thinks phones are good for kids in the comments.

[Brandon]

No, I want to say it's bad.

[Aiden]

So phones. And generally it says like our ability to. It's not like reading is getting specifically worse or masking. The worst is that our ability to process information. Like take in information, process it. And it's almost like when your brain turns on. Has to work a little bit. We've sort of pushed past that. And they point to a lot of things. One of them they say is not even that it's phones, but it's infinite scrolling on media.

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Aiden]

To where it kind of like anytime you get in discomfort, you just move on to the next thing your brain does not get comfortable sitting in. In the discomfort of thought again. Yeah, go for it. Yeah.

[Brandon]

Could I posit my. I'll give my. What's Aiden's theory on intelligence theory on this? Because this is something that I've thought a lot about self reflecting. I feel dumber in some ways than I used to be when I was younger, actually. And the biggest thing that I noticed was as I've gotten older, my ability to speak in the way I want and instantly come to the words and ways I want to describe things and explain things has gotten less sharp over time, particularly in I would say the last, like five to six years. I feel like I was actually better at finding the words to explain things and speak to people when I was younger. And I think that tracks really directly in my mind with the amount that I read because I barely have read up until this year. So maybe before this year I had not read a whole book in maybe five or six years. And my habit of reading every day obsessively has been gone since basically the beginning or middle of high school. I think reading in general, or maybe if you. If you intently listen to audiobooks, I think there's. There is some scientific.

[Aiden]

Yeah, I heard that too.

[Brandon]

Support for listening to audiobooks actually is very similar to reading. I think the problem is, are you actually paying attention to what you're listening to in the same way that you have to pay attention when reading, if that's right.

[Aiden]

Like I've seen Ludwig listen to audiobook and it's not. Yeah, his eyes are glazed over.

[Brandon]

You can just play, you can just phase out while something happens to be on. Right. But if you are intently listening to audiobooks, I think it might be. It might be the same. And I think that is the number one thing I could point to in my own life is when I was reading every day, I think I had a way better vocabulary and quickness in the way that I was able to access and explain things. But that aside, my other part of this that I think absolutely has to do with this is it is related to phones. And phones are the way this problem is dispersed in my mind. But the constant activation you have access to all the time by scrolling things like TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, anything, or just the Internet in general. Or for me, it's YouTube. I listen to a ton of YouTube and podcasts and how I have to listen to those things almost all the time. I always am putting something on. And I think when you're pushing your brain like constantly and you are constantly giving it, it's constantly in a state of stimulation. I think things that stand out are fewer and far between and things become harder to retain and memorize. A lot of the way that you memorize or hang on to things is strong emotional responses to those things. If you. If say I did something wrong, like I betrayed you in some capacity, and there's two versions of this playing out. The version where you don't realize anything happened and we never talk about it, and I've hidden it from you for years and you don't really know about it.

[Doug]

That version, every day your life is worse and I'm watching you, watching you suffer, and you have no idea. It was me.

[Aiden]

It was me this whole time.

[Brandon]

But there's some big lesson, like there might be something that I have to like, learn from that or take away from that, that I might not take away because there's no big emotional moment that forces me to confront it. But if you got mad at me and we got into an argument, like a real argument, which we've never really done before, we will. It would be very distinct and fresh in your mind. Like that's something that heavily influences memory, is like the emotional, maybe the emot. I'm sure there are better ways to describe this, but basically the state of being that you're in when you're consuming the information. But if you're in a constant baseline state of information being spit at you all the time and there's nothing to differentiate it from every other moment of your day, it's really hard to actually remember and retain it. And I've been talking about this a lot with some other friends because I think my memory is. Has gotten worse. And I was like, I don't think I have like early onset dementia or something like that. I hope. I think it's just a consequence of the way that I am constantly engaging in messages, consuming media like it's a consequence of my phone.

[Aiden]

Do you feel this way, Doug? Is this something that you've experienced or what's your experience with this over the past, let's say since 2012 to now, post phones. Post.

[Doug]

I'm too weird of a person, I think, to have a baseline that I can compare against. I think this is a relevant enough time to bring up this tweet I saw. So this is a teacher who talked about the current state of education and bas essentially saying what you are saying, Aiden, so we can start it.

[Aiden]

That's the old CEO of Twitch.

[D]

Guys don't know what's going on in education right now. That's fine. Like, how could you know unless you were working in it? But I think that. I think you need to know. So here is exactly what it's like right now, working in public education. First of all, the kids have no ability to be bored whatsoever. They live on their phones and they're just fed a constant stream of dope, dopamine. From the minute their eyes wake up in the morning until they go to sleep at night because they're in a constant state of dopamine withdrawal at school. They behave like addicts. They're super emotional. Like, the smallest thing sets them off. And when you are standing in front of them trying to teach, they're vacant. They have no ability to tune in. If your communication isn't packaged in short little clips or if it doesn't have like bright flashing lights. That's actually the way harder part for me than just the outright behaviors is just being up at the front talking to a group of kids who have their eyes open. They're looking at me, but they're not there.

[Doug]

Yeah, and that's the core of it, right? Which is wild, pretty damning and sounds horrible. Then the response, which I think is interesting. So I saw this response from Emmett Shear, the old CEO of Twitch, and he said, I'm not sure if this is true. But weirdly, if it is, which is just awesome opener by the way.

[Aiden]

Wait, what image here thing? I used to work with this guy. He would be in meetings where executives are presenting him important things they've worked the whole month on. And he's on his phone playing Hearthstone. This is a fact. I will stand. So for him to call out like.

[Brandon]

He was breaking out of the psychic prison.

[Aiden]

All right, Tommy, I'm sorry.

[Doug]

Yeah. So in response to this, this teacher explaining how difficult education is right now, he says, I'm not sure if this is true, but weirdly, if it is, it kind of gives me hope. Blur out the judgment and details and it sounds like a generation staging a jailbreak from psychic pr. So there is an argument that I don't necessarily agree with that the way our schools and the way our everything has been structured education wise is very much about turning the average citizen into a cog, into a broad cog that can fit into any machine. And I think arguably that is not a good system for majority of people, particularly in our modern society. And that maybe it is a world where we want to have more specialized tools of, you know, AI education or tutors or whatever that aren't just like, we're going to jam you into this box. Check all the boxes. Over the course of high school, Emmett's take is a bit, I don't know, psychic prison feels like a bit much.

[Brandon]

Yeah, I feel like that's a little extreme. I think the. Maybe the like less extreme version of the argument that you're saying that makes. I actually think that makes sense. I think the argument of like making school more specialized and allowing kids to like focus on particular areas that are. They're best suited for, they're most likely to succeed in is an approach that not only, like some schools are able to take in the US but like, if you ask, if you look at education systems in other countries, they often let kids do that like in the later high school years especially. Right. I think that is a very disconnected from the consequences of kids having fun.

[Aiden]

There's two paths, right? There's one of just saying that schooling needs an overhaul in general, which has been true for a while, which is like a lot of kids get left in the cracks. A lot of kids aren't set for this rote memorization. It's not physical enough for young boys. I've heard, like, they don't get enough outside time especially. That's why, like there's like aspects of schooling that could be.

[Brandon]

But if we were having this argument about education in 2007, before iPhones existed. That argument would be the same.

[Aiden]

It's the same.

[Brandon]

It was the same thing back then.

[Aiden]

But also there's the dopamine addiction. Just like it seems different.

[Brandon]

And I'll say as somebody who. So I. I didn't know this. I got an ADHD diagnosis like a year ago. And I'm not about to blame like all of the bad things in my life on adhd.

[Aiden]

To preface publicly, you'll do it privately, but not.

[Brandon]

But when I talk to. But when I talk to my parents, I didn't know that they knew I had ADHD as a kid and they.

[Aiden]

Did not see that video. It's obvious.

[Brandon]

What the happened to the safe space.

[Aiden]

All right, sorry.

[Brandon]

And talking to them like my, like I think about the. When I was a kid and I didn't. I wasn't allowed to like watch TV on weekdays. I wasn't allowed to play video games on weekdays. I could only. I could. I could read basically. And I. That constant, like part of having adhd, I think is your constant seek for stimulation, basically. And it is hard to focus on things. And for me as a kid that ended up getting captured in books and comic books. I just read constantly. I would take a book everywhere with me as a child so I could read every moment of every day or I would listen to audiobooks on tape and things like that. And I think there is, I think about what would have happened if I had a phone instead and just free reign on the Internet, which I didn't really have until mid teenage years. And I think it would have been really, really bad for me. I would have turned out way, way differently because my effort and focus and success would have been completely diverted from how I grew up. Obviously that's extremely anecdotal. This is a very personal experience to me. But I do think on the whole access to this all the time, like when you give like. I think a really good video on the effects of weed came out because a bunch of like weed research has dropped in the last couple of years, like post legalization. And a lot of the consequences of weed can now be looked at in like the long run. And there is. Turns out there is really, really bad cognitive effects from like constant or like even small use of like weed, particularly for children. Like it not. Not so much for adults. I'm not here to like edgy, like say like stop smoking weed or something. He's in the seat.

[Aiden]

I think this feat is the villain.

[Doug]

Yeah, that's the villain.

[Brandon]

I'm Saying the idea that having this device with you all the time that is constantly like pushing and stimulating your brain and giving that to someone who's like young and developing especially the idea that it has a no consequence at all is, is ridiculous. For, for one, like it's, it would be crazy to have an opinion that it has. No.

[Doug]

You want to take away people's phones and their weed?

[Aiden]

Yeah. No phones, no weed, Aiden.

[Brandon]

Honestly, if they're under 18, I maybe, I don't know if I'm taking it away.

[Doug]

Yeah, I, I would, I wouldn't have learned anything in high school. Already had a hard enough time paying attention with like 100% and like having a Gamecube at home, let alone fucking Fortnite on my phone and clips it. Like, I, I would be destroyed. I, I completely agree.

[Aiden]

100 and they have data on this. So I, I, I'm not remembering the study exactly, but they've done studies on schools that have effectively, again, a lot of schools try it, but not effectively, but effectively banned phones.

[Brandon]

And it helps.

[Aiden]

And when they do it helps. Scores go up.

[Doug]

I just want to point out for the audio listeners, I got a call, Brandon just got a call in the middle of that sentence and had to put his phone down on his lap. Go ahead.

[Aiden]

Sorry. Can I play a quick game of Fruit Ninja? Because I'm getting bored.

[Doug]

Yeah, I'm getting fucking in the middle of the sentence. Reached out for his phone and looked down away from us.

[Brandon]

I even talked about this. I talked about a similar thing recently on we do a little advice show for the yard, like Patreon. And on we were talking about vices. And I think a huge thing for me was how compulsively, literally addicted I was to Twitter for years. Compulsive motion of opening the app, scrolling close it without thinking, close it. Literally open it like a second later. Doing that all the time. And I think that's, that's what kids have access to. And this story from this woman online. Right. It's, that's, that's not a study. But this, I have heard this story so much from so many people who teach and that phones have like destroyed the classroom. And if we were to go back to what I think is a valid argument, actually, which is what Doug was bringing up at the beginning, I think that is again, totally true ways to transform and shape education to make people be as successful as possible and escape the psychic prison, if you will. I got, I think that's totally valid.

[Doug]

Stuff to talk about separate from society.

[Aiden]

I can lead into your things real quick. I don't want to say something. So in that article, you don't have to bring it up. I'll just say it ends by saying, because this all started around 2012, it's very obviously not an evolution. We're not getting physically dumber. Our brains are not cognitively dumber. So it is having to do with like the way we're learning, the way our environment we're in, the way, the access of the phones. And it means it's changeable. Which means, yeah, you know, the hopeful thing of it is like, we can change it. Our policy or whatever we do can make it more likely. So you have this idea here from becoming an Alpha, right? Andrew Tate's school. Is this the solution?

[Brandon]

Wait, is this Andrew Tate's Forbes as.

[Doug]

Seen on Forbes School? These are Alpha. Alpha, Tate's three commitments. Okay, all right, Tech bros, I'm sorry you had to wait a whole 25 minutes to talk about AI, but we're back into AI, dude. All right, let's talk about how AI is gonna make everything better. And there's literally no downside, right?

[Brandon]

I can't think of any.

[Doug]

Okay. So I think there is a. An important premise to start with, which is that one on one tutoring of a student is shown to be vastly more effective. And there's been a lot of studies by this. I found one about from the University of Chicago. But the difference between having a teacher in front of a group of people who is giving the same lecture and the same broad lesson to everybody versus a one on one tutor is massive difference. And we all know this, right? That's why rich people pay for tutors for their kids and then it always makes them do way better in school. Right? So if we agree with that premise, which has been around and known for decades and decades and decades, if we could transform our education system to be more like a one on one tutor experience, that could have included incredible benefits for kids. So there are now studies going on with Basically people using AI LLMs to have an AI tutor, essentially. So this is in early stages. These are going to get way better. But even there's some studies in Nigeria and Ghana. One of them is crazy. In Nigeria, they had students in a six week program for one hour a day after school. They talked to this LLM chatbot to help them learn English and they tested that. At the end, the six weeks was equivalent to two years of typical learning. That is how big of a difference having a tailored experience was. They did math in Ghana. Kids were Given an hour of this AI math tutor on WhatsApp, and over eight months of doing this, one hour a day, it was an extra year of learning. Like, these are crazy gains when you can tailor education to a specific person. So Alpha school, I only found out about this recently. It's this school in the us there's like nine campuses, something like that. And there's some like, prominent tech people whose, like, kids are in these things. Their premise for their school is there are two hours a day of actual.

[Brandon]

Two hours a day of not being. Don't be a beta.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

You crush a brew.

[Doug]

You sling dick, you smoke that marijuana. They know at Alpha school you don't.

[Aiden]

Know a about weed. Aiden, smoke?

[Doug]

No. Look at Lulu here. She shows up every day, she hits the bomb as she goes.

[Aiden]

She's a fucking alpha. And you don't.

[Doug]

You're right, she's an alpha. So this school, their premise is you have two hours a day, that's it. Of really tailored learning. Their teachers are no longer considered teachers. They are guides. And their goal is to be these one on one mentors with each student which are offering support and guidance and motivation for the student to work with this AI tutor to have really tailored education to them. And the testimonies from kids are like, like this one, I don't have to stick to just second grade. I can learn third and fourth grade content too. Right? Like, kids can go at their own rate for all these different topics, and then the rest of the day they spend doing all of these, whatever activities they're interested in. So they could like, try to run their own business or they do some sort of outdoor activity or pottery or whatever they feel like, whatever's gonna make them the biggest alpha. So this is interesting. I only learned about this recently, but apparently the results of this are insane. Like, the, the scoring that these kids are doing is vastly higher on average than a traditionally educated kid in the Texas region. And it's wild to think that like two hours and I imagine myself in school and like, how much of schooling was me just forcing myself through this slog? And if it was tailored to me, like now I learn it like a hundred times the rate I used to because I tailor everything to my interests and largely use AI to help me do that. And I'm very optimistic about us potentially transforming education that is separate from phones, which I don't think kids should have in school.

[Aiden]

So I want to say, I just want to say I have used this a lot. I mean, I was doing it. No, I don't go. I'm actually not.

[Brandon]

You went to Alpha School Graduate, bro.

[Aiden]

I'm in Beta school. It's different, sadly. Talk.

[Doug]

What's it like once you broke out of the Matrix, dude.

[Aiden]

But you sort of put me onto this and I've been doing it more and it works it legitimately. I'll put in an article that I want to talk about on stream. I'll have it summarize the whole thing, but not summarize it. I'll have it quiz me. So I'll like, read the article and then I'll. I'll put it into the thing. And I'm like, hey, just check my knowledge. And if you do the voice mode, like, I have a conversation about the article and if I'm like, this is my takeaway, they're like, well, actually, you know, it'll like, correct me. Or like, it's like. It's like a really smart person I'm talking to that knows what I'm trying to learn and just gives me feed. I mean, I can actually see what you're talking about. I've tried it firsthand and it does work. And that way when I go live and someone asks me that question, I've had this, like, I'm prepared for it in a way that I couldn't have done just by. By myself. Reading like it does, there is potential there.

[Doug]

The rate at which I learned, I've learned history, programming a new language, like learning Japanese are all easily 10 times the rate at which I used to learn things 10 years ago using AI.

[Brandon]

It is feedback.

[Doug]

It is wild. It's not just feedback, it's that it's custom tailored to you. Right. Imagine a teacher who's explaining the article to you, but there's 30 people or all have their own questions and you get lost.

[Aiden]

What I'm lost on, I get an immediate answer.

[Doug]

Right? Right. And you can tailor it to. I mean, imagine again, kids who are like. Like my teacher friend was saying, like, kids don't seem to be as motivated nowadays. And what I would hope is that AI tools or whatever modern education tools we use, whether it's AI or not, can be tailored. So this kid who's terrible at focusing on math, it can be rephrased in some sort of game that's related to Fortnite or their favorite characters or a weird, like, movie thing in a way that actually gets their attention. Right? At a level that matches their specific type of skill level.

[Brandon]

Have you. Doug, have you seen the Wire?

[Doug]

Yes, dude.

[Aiden]

Okay. I don't know if you Know, aiden can't go 15 minutes in real life without bringing up the Wire. He forces it into every conversation.

[Brandon]

It's because it's a great show.

[Aiden]

We've made it two whole episodes, I thought, without this problem. And now it's back to it's a great show.

[Brandon]

Okay, but you might remember, you've seen the Wire, have you not?

[Aiden]

Yeah, I've seen the Wire.

[Brandon]

You know, the beginning.

[Aiden]

I've seen it through your description of every line.

[Brandon]

The famous scene, the famous scene at the beginning of season four when Snoop is buying the nail gun in the store. And the whole thing is that like Snoop, you know, had. Had Snoop grown up in maybe a better environment, is actually a very intelligent person who knows what they need, knows how to ask questions, and has like a very in depth conversation of like how I specifically need this type of tool that would be best suited to hide the bodies in vacant buildings.

[Aiden]

Yeah, they're buying a thing to hide dead bodies.

[Brandon]

And this is a silly example of. I do think catering knowledge and learning to specific situations that best fit the kid so that they best understand them is totally the way to go. Even just having individual time is so important. I remember when I was a younger kid in fifth grade, and I think there was a brief period of time where I went to a private school. And in that school there was a subset of people within the class that they pulled out of class to work on basically the next grade's worth of material because we already knew the existing material. We were nerds. But at public schools, those opportunities were few and far between, at least at U.S. public schools. And like I said, when you look at public education in a lot of other countries, they start to take these more like refined approaches to different students so that they're working on something that they are more invested in. I think that's. This is kind of awesome if you're doing this through. I don't in a classroom that is like deployed by the teacher or the school rather than like on the. At the kids, like phones at an individual level.

[Doug]

Right.

[Brandon]

I think that's. This is really cool because I think at least as if you took this all out of the world of technology and you just go back far enough in time. I think again, these were the same conversations about education that people are having like 10, 20, 30 years ago about how to help students succeed. And this is like a tool that allows that to happen.

[Aiden]

I want to talk a little about the negative sides of AI though. And it's not this in education. And I've Been hearing this all over. There's a good article about it, but also I've talked to my, I had my chat like come up and give some stories. And the level of cheating, especially in college level courses right now with Chad is rampant. Yes, it is, it is, yeah, it is viral.

[Doug]

I mean, you're saying they're breaking out.

[Aiden]

Of the psychic prison and maybe that means the whole system is just, it doesn't work in this, in this area. But like the structure of it is still there and it's teetering. It's not. Teachers are frustrated. They're. They're grading like 80%, chatbots, papers. They know the student did put no time into. And the students are also reporting that like, okay, so let's say you're a student and you want to try hard. Well, you're worried that if you don't use AI to cheat, you're gonna fall behind this kid that does. If you're, your grade's worse.

[Brandon]

If you're in college, you're literally suffering because of the curve, right?

[Aiden]

Yeah, there's a curve. And then also, like, you hear the stories of like people graduating. It's a tough time now to find if you get bad grades, you're where you're gonna graduate and not be. So you're like almost incentivized, hard to cheat because the thing can write better than you on a lot of things.

[Doug]

Right.

[Aiden]

So now it's like this race to the bottom where everyone is cheating at all times. It's getting exponential. And now they're going into job interviews and they're cheating in those. Like they're, they're having the AI auto listen to the job question and then just reading the, I mean, it's getting, it's getting, it's breaking the whole system. It's breaking like every way of measuring human ability and talent and that structure that existed before. And I, I don't have the answer. But like, that is a downside of AI that's coming really quickly.

[Doug]

Yes.

[Aiden]

Well, I think this is a longer term, strong positive.

[Doug]

Yes. Yeah, okay, that's my, I'm not going to pretend like no AI is straight up destroying our current education system. Like straight up. And I think there's a world where we can go, okay, long term, this, like, things like this Alpha school could be really positive. I, I have an education from one of the best computer science schools in the country and a computer science degree from it. And I think that education quality was pretty bad overall. And I am not heartbroken if the fairly shitty way of having us learn and test our learning knowledge, which had almost no correspondence to who went on to actually be successful and make an impact in the world. I'm not that heartbroken if that system fails. I'm not that heartbroken if Dr. If Professor Brian Harvey can't fucking grade our scheme projects as well anymore.

[Aiden]

I don't give a shit. Getting shade 15, 12 years later.

[Doug]

Yeah, well, no, he's got this famous, he's got this famous video about not cheating. And he's right. Morally, like, obviously morally. I'm not, I'm not, not supportive of cheating or anything but, but it's. It, the current structure is for sure. And I think what I hope and think is and will happen is that we can, we can push it towards these really tailored experiences. But it's not. I don't like the, the, the, the paradigm of like all the kids go to high school and then they take the SAT and that number is how smart you are. It's like that shit is going to end. Yeah, that's going to end. It's going to be. You are specialized in certain things and you could pursue those things with a lot of like, individual focus.

[Brandon]

I think this actually comes back to the first episode when we're talking about AI in a way because. But this is hitting education, I would say sooner or more heavily than the way it's hitting the job market.

[Aiden]

It's like a freight train.

[Brandon]

Like it's the same issue when we were talking about how, well, what is the consequences of like AI on the future of the way we work. Right. And the big consequence is like, well, AI is going to replace all these jobs. But if those people can't move to new jobs because AI is also capable of replacing those jobs, then there's this catastrophic effect on the way society is structured right now. But this is the same situation. It's like new tool is not complementary to the way education is currently structured.

[Aiden]

Or has been done for decades. I mean, for a long time.

[Brandon]

But the deconstruction is happening already. So I think the answer, when I think about how what I fucking learned in business school is basically.

[Doug]

You had a business school?

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Oh, dope.

[Brandon]

I went to business school and I studied finance and I studied markets. Nothing, almost nothing of what I learned is applicable or helpful in my life except for. And all of the experience that I gained by being in university was I leveraged a lot of university resources to like start to start a business and run esports events.

[Aiden]

Yeah. Doing actual things is the only way.

[Brandon]

To learn by like running that company. And I don't like, regret going to college for those reasons. Like, I did learn a lot through those ways and there were exceptions in my classes where I learned about stuff that I thought was really interesting. But overall, like, I didn't take that much away from it. And this, like, tailored education.

[Aiden]

More expensive.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

I mean, for kids nowadays, it makes no sense. Sense for the average young person going to college right now, it's like the price has only gone up.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

The quality is going down. Everyone is cheating. Like, the, the quality of your degree means less because there's so many false positives people are cheating through. It's like, it's, it's. It's this really tough time to be figuring out what the to do. I mean, I, I don't envy people who are younger. People are like 18 right now. It's like insane. I'm really learning more about it by talking to some of them. And it's like, I don't. I feel like in 10 years, maybe we've figured some of this out and they're having this. But I feel like this, this window is so bad. This window sucks.

[Doug]

Yeah. I again, don't want to downplay that this window sucks.

[Aiden]

Parents like telling them, why did you do this? Or what? You know, like parents that don't understand how much it's changed. I don't know. It's just interesting.

[Brandon]

I think this specific use case is really, is really cool. Like, I, to me, if, if this is like, I think about the language learning example you gave, like, you have been learning Japanese. That's how Ludwig's been studying Japanese. And in the time that he said he's been using ChatGPT, it is from my outside perspective as somebody who knows like a little Japanese, like very little from studying it in college is, oh, wow. He's improved a lot in the period of time that he's been using that instead. And I think there is really cool use cases of it because as somebody who's the, you know, from that first episode, the AI Scrutiner, if you will, here to scrutinize. And like, I do think that the cheating epidemic right now is, is terrible. Like, the situation is literally devolving before us. I'm really excited about something like this.

[Aiden]

You heard the Steve Jobs quote is a long time ago. It was like him talking about the future and he's like, Alexander the Great learned everything he knew from Aristotle. Aristotle was like his private tutor. And he's like, one day we'll be able to put all of Aristotle's teachings into a computer and create a digital Aristotle that can be anyone's tutor. And I thought that was really. I mean, first of all, it's incredible foresight for 84 when he said it or whatever, but like, there is something to that of a kid having the compounding knowledge of the world privately for whatever, like whatever you're interested in, if it's Japanese or whatever. And that's, I mean, there. That is cool. I. I do see that being a positive thing once it can get figured out once society adapts to it in a way.

[Doug]

But yes, as I said in the first episode, new technology, it's destructive at first and then you start getting the gains. And we are currently in the destruction phase and it's going to be hard and scary and terrible. And I, again, to repeat myself, I am not saying the terrible stuff isn't happening or won't happen, but I just want and hope that people can also acknowledge how much good there is down the road. And then hopefully we try to maximize that, minimize downside. That's. Yeah, but it's fucked right now for sure.

[Aiden]

It's just, I mean, if you're 18 or you're like, no, it's bad. High school and Covid and now you're.

[Doug]

Dealing with cheating in college, it's bad.

[Aiden]

Well, you're just getting fucked.

[Brandon]

I'm trying to reach for like, what might be like, what. What are more negatives? Or like, what is the potential argument to this use case specifically? And if I would, maybe if I was a teacher, I would be seeing this and be one, maybe a little insecure about my job and be like, am I. Is this the process of me, like getting replaced? What place do I, in this system now does a teacher turn from a person that stands in front of a classroom and teaches a group of 30, 40 kids into somebody that's basically an AI manager, maybe an emotional support or.

[Doug]

Someone who can handle the human support. The description I have is pretty decent. So it's. At Alpha school, teachers shift from traditional roles like grading and writing lesson plans to supporting students emotional and motivational needs and teaching life skills. Just like. Yeah, I mean, that's a very optimistic description, but in theory, yeah. And those were the most impactful teachers that I had is not the ones who wrote really good lesson plans. It's one that really tailored to me.

[Brandon]

I will say I think it's really important for there to still be guidance and structure from the school. Because when I was in high school, I had this class, I was a Part of that was you could get into instead of English. And it was called this is at a public school too. It was called Rise. I forget what it stood for. But the idea was you had the autonomy within that class to kind of decide whatever you wanted to work on. And the dramatically, I would say, good examples of how that time was used was one girl that graduated a few years before me, worked really hard, opened, like a coffee business using the time that she was in that class. And then she got into an Ivy League school. And there was other examples of people in that class becoming really successful. I think I struggled a bit more in that environment. Like, even though I was a really successful waste of time, I fucked off. Like, I spent, like, half of that. I spent half of that year, first year down, like, finding YouTube music and learning how to. Like, I. I basically spent a bunch of time learning how to pirate music at school because I couldn't do it.

[Doug]

That's alpha right there.

[Brandon]

It's not to say that that, like, program didn't have any use, but I feel like that was supposed to be this opportunity for me to grow and succeed in a direction that I couldn't in a normal class. And I think that opportunity is really important. But I could have used a little more guidance.

[Aiden]

Yeah, a little more structure. A little more guidance, especially for some kids. That makes sense.

[Doug]

Who else could use structure and guidance?

[Aiden]

This show.

[Doug]

This show. Let's move on to. Guys.

[Aiden]

It's been drama, drama, drama.

[Doug]

Almost 43 minutes. I'm sorry, tech bros. We are now moving on to Tesla. Let's talk about Tesla.

[Brandon]

Time for Douglas Doug to call out Mark Robert.

[Aiden]

Yeah, you need to do it. First of all, we need an enemy for this podcast. Yeah, that's all good. Podcasts have enemies.

[Doug]

Okay, this. It's interesting. Interesting timing because last week we talked a whole lot about Tesla versus Waymo, which is basically the difference between cameras in a car versus cameras and LiDAR in a car. LiDAR being lasers that shoots around and it can, like, see what's going on, irrespective of whether there's light in the camera or there's fog or whatever else. So what? Two days later, I think Mark Rober, giant science YouTuber, if you don't know, very family friendly, makes this video where he compares Tesla to another company, Luminar, who makes lidar. So basically he just does a bunch of tests of this exact thing of a car. Tesla. Timing is crazy. Yeah, timing's crazy. Of a car that just does cameras versus a car that has this lidar system built in. And so he puts out this video and somewhat predictably, the Tesla fails several of these things and the LIDAR system succeeds at all of them. For example, if there's like super bright lights in the car, I forget exactly which ones. Tesla failed. It failed like half. But like super bright lights or rain that is falling from a bunch of hoses, that completely obscures the vision. Right. And then the last one is he went through a fake cartoon painted wall. So he's like. And if you, if you're looking at the video, you can see it. He drives through a wall that is painted to look like the background. This is not something that happens in real life. But the point of this is like there is a physical object on the road and the laser LIDAR system absolutely can detect it, but the cameras can't because the cameras, it just looks like the road is continuing. Right. So he did this test and it's very fun and dramatic. I thought it was interesting, the response to some of this. So this was one of the most prominent criticisms I saw. I don't know who Sawyer Merritt is, although in his bio it says investor of Tesla. So I think he's slightly biased, sure. But there's, you know, the timing of this was so interesting. And he posts this video. Mark Grober posts this video and then on Monday, Tesla stock drops and Luminar stock, who makes the LiDAR that he showed off increased 25%.

[Brandon]

Oh my God.

[Aiden]

10 million view video.

[Doug]

It's a big, by two days later, it peaked at a 50% increase.

[Brandon]

So let's see. Mark Rober, why don't you post your Robinhood account?

[Doug]

Yeah, so Mark Rober said he followed up and he had, due to criticism, he was like, we did not receive money, money from Luminar, but Luminar stock goes way up. What Luminar does, they don't make cars, but they make the LIDAR system that they're trying to sell to cars. So they're trying to make like a standalone LIDAR system. So this guy, Sawyer Merritt comes in and is voicing some of the big criticisms against this video. Mark Rober does. The first up is that he doesn't actually use Tesla's full self driving technology. He uses Autopilot. So Autopilot is like every Tesla car basically has this and it's like a highway driver assist. It just like keeps you in the lanes and whatnot. And it is supposed to brake and stop you from hitting things. But it's not full self driving. There is as of the last like 5 years. There is full self driving SFD that Teslas have and that's the new thing that is meant to be self driving. So right off the bat, it's kind of strange, he just straight up didn't use Tesla's advanced system at all. He used the old one from five years ago. That is not meant for things like this. There's also inconsistencies in the video. So he like posts this clip on YouTube due to criticism of him driving through the wall. The Tesla, the Tesla just smashes through it. But he activates the Autopilot mode like 3 seconds before going to the wall, like really late. And that, that impacts it. Whereas with the LIDAR car, they activate it way down the Runway and there's like tons of time for the car to realize there's a wall there. Not only that, he show, he posts this raw footage and says like, this is the raw footage. That's how you know I didn't fake this. But then in the video there's a different clip where he activates these, the autopilot earlier in the Runway at a different time. So basically they, they did multiple takes and then spliced them together in the YouTube video, which is just kind of strange and weird. And there's other things, people, you know, being like, why was there a child that you ran over afterwards? It was. And obviously the answer to that is it's dramatic and fun.

[Brandon]

So I was gonna say number five was dumb to include because it's like, it's just kind of funny.

[Aiden]

Yeah, yeah, it's for the YouTube video. He's a good YouTuber.

[Doug]

Yeah. So it's, I mean, okay, I really, I think the point is like he, I think Mark Rober's an extremely talented guy. I don't think this was well intentioned, but it is, I think objectively misleading. The video is titled can you trick a self driving car or can you fool a self driving car and then does not use Tesla's full self driving capabilities and then basically stacks the odds against it and doesn't give a whole lot of clarity around like, hey, we're doing a bunch of tests and we are giving Tesla as many disadvantages as possible. Possible. Disclaimer again, I don't love Tesla and Elon Musk, God damn. But I am, I am at least voicing some criticism. And so you know this. I would, I would go so far as to say most of the people criticizing this are clearly angry Tesla investors who want to believe the Kool Aid. You know, I'm not convinced this is some big scandal or whatever. But it was kind of weird and interesting how much of a market impact this video from Mark Rober had, as well as the fact that objectively he gave a lot of disadvantages to Tesla. It's a little weird.

[Brandon]

So that was a little bit of my thought was you, you as a youtuber making this video might not have been paid by the other company, might not necessarily want Tesla to be the party to fail. But if both cars just handle both situations equally, fine. And you don't put any effort into it past that, you've made a pretty boring YouTube video.

[Doug]

Right.

[Brandon]

And I think from an entertainer's perspective, I can understand why he might have made these decisions if the criticisms are accurate.

[Doug]

Right.

[Brandon]

And I, it's. It kind of starts to walk this line of like how much duty do you as like an entertainer but also like a science YouTuber that I think commands a lot of respect within the space.

[Doug]

Yes. He's a NASA engineer or was a NASA engineer.

[Aiden]

Like, I'm going to do my best to defend Mark Rober here, but I do agree that I think the most damning criticism to me is that you should have used full self driving.

[Doug]

Right, Right. That's by far the biggest. He literally used the outdated system that is not meant to be self driving and made that his comparison in a video called can you fool self driving.

[Aiden]

Car, the latest in great.

[Brandon]

And I have like, I have a Volkswagen that came out a few years ago and I have this system like that keeps me in the lanes and stops me from hitting cars. You know what I mean? Like, but I wouldn't expect it to succeed in this situation. So I think that's.

[Aiden]

Yeah. So here's the core thing is like first of all, what his results line up with is essentially equivalent to what you said in your breakdown of LiDAR versus cameras and their different capabilities and different strengths.

[Doug]

Yes.

[Aiden]

Including fog and bright lights.

[Doug]

Yes.

[Aiden]

And so it is reasonable that if this test were to rerun again, even with FSD, this could still be a problem with LiDAR versus cameras. Like it needs to be tested again.

[Doug]

Most likely the results would be the same.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Doug]

But the fact that he disadvantaged has hurts unnecessarily. It's just like, why did you do that? Like now there is so much criticism because genuinely it's not fair. Like.

[Aiden]

Yeah. And then the only other thing I want to mention is a lot of people are pointing out like if you see right here, see. See the rainbow road goes on.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

It's. He turns it on late for sure. But it's on, turns off. And that is because people are postulating. And this is, I read a good article on this is that Teslas have been shown in multiple instances to automatically turn off before an accident, to change the, to muddy the waters around whether autopilot was engaged during accidents.

[Brandon]

So it's like when Disney takes the bodies out of the park before they're declared dead.

[Doug]

Oh, that's good.

[Brandon]

I don't know if they. This is rumored. This is rumored.

[Doug]

If you pause this footage.

[Aiden]

Yes.

[Doug]

When Mark Rober drives through the wall, it's just Mark Rober driving.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Doug]

The autopilot's off. So fucking check.

[Aiden]

That's what I'm saying.

[Doug]

I know that works.

[Aiden]

That has been shown. Like there's a, there was a Tesla that drove into a, it was a white truck and it thought it was the horizon or was a blue truck that was horizon. It drove into it and the person died, but they said autopilot was off at the time. You're laughing. A lot of this guy's dead, by the way. It's really funny.

[Brandon]

I'm not touching you.

[Doug]

If I was a truck driver, I would not paint my truck to look like a horizon, like something lunatic.

[Aiden]

It's a bad idea.

[Doug]

I would bait people into killing themselves in my truck.

[Aiden]

It's probably not the smartest trucker move, but this guy dies and every time this happens, they kind of muddy the waters. Like, autopilot wasn't engaged at the moment of crash, but it was engaged, you know, seconds before. And it like, if it's too late to break and it's. But it still contects a collision. It does turn off. And they say it's for the reason of like, let's give back to the humans. They have last chance. But it feels very muddied the water. So while I agree with you, I really do, I was kind of disappointed because, like, I feel like Mark Rober had a real chance to like have an open shut slam dunk.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

On lidar. And instead because of these errors, it like it muddies the water so no one can. But I, I, I also think like this points out this footage is pointing out what a lot of court cases have already shown, which is like, this is a real thing. That Tesla was getting investigated before, before Doge wiped out a lot of the investigative. Oh, areas that were looking into this.

[Doug]

So that's just coincidence.

[Aiden]

That's just coincidence.

[Brandon]

Oh, allegations.

[Aiden]

So I don't know. I, I'm, I'm ambivalent on It I wish they would do. I mean he's getting so much pushback. Maybe he will do a follow up or do some kind of like more strenuous test or.

[Doug]

It's interesting. Yeah.

[Aiden]

I would love to like know more detailed.

[Doug]

But there's a whole other topic which I would need. I don't know enough about. Which is the legal side of full self driving. Which is if a full self. If a Waymo hits kills a person who is at fault. Like who get what happens? Like do we just put the car in jail or is it the engineers or is it like what happens man? So that's.

[Aiden]

That's a whole crazy thing recommended after your talk last week. I guess I was just looking more into it and it's like a Waymo that's getting pulled over by a cop. A cop on foot. Plink. A cop on foot in his full uniform is like stop. The Waymo stops and then like a little driverless pizza delivery bot is like rolling by and the guy gets distracted and then the Waymo just out of there and it's like how do you. What? He doesn't know what to do. He's like an old cop. He has no idea how to deal with all these robots around him just moving on their own. It's. The world's getting so crazy. Things are changing so fast though.

[Doug]

It's.

[Aiden]

It's interesting.

[Brandon]

That's so funny.

[Aiden]

Anyway, what do you think will happen? I don't. I don't know what Mark Rober does next. I don't even know if he's I upset about it. The video's doing great.

[Brandon]

I feel like Mark Rober criticism. The problem is that even if the pushback is really big, it's kind of like when Mr. Beast gets flack. It's. You're. You're pretty insulated like at the core of it. Even if a million people are shitting on you, right. You drop the next video to like 10 million plus people that have no idea this drama even exists.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Brandon]

And that's. That's like Mr. Beast is like a great thing.

[Aiden]

That's not.

[Brandon]

No, I don't think it's. There's a lack of accountability in that. But Mr. Beast is kind of like run to that level right. Where it's like even if the Internet. There's a huge pocket of the Internet. That's a posead of him. It's like 100 million people still watch the next like yacht video.

[Aiden]

Right, right, whatever.

[Brandon]

Because they just don't even know that this is a controversy. In the first place.

[Doug]

And this is. I mean, all things considered, this is pretty niche.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Doug]

This is not a huge deal, but it is an interesting. As this conversation goes on with cars and whether we should have LIDAR in them or if Tesla can pull off this thing. And Tesla is saying right now that they're going to launch Cyber Cabs in June of this year. Like, that's in three months this year. So supposedly in three months in Texas, they're going to be launching cars that don't have a driver in them, which is from what we are aware of way too soon. So. And so it's. This is. This is an ongoing discussion. I think it's going to happen and be very relevant over the next couple of years is like, what exactly are our standards as Americans or humans who are near cars to like, how good it has to be? You know, it's like it's going to be so interesting.

[Aiden]

But one more thing I want to say because you, I mean, you put me on all this is that, you know, you made the story that Tesla decided early on that lidar was too expensive.

[Doug]

Yes.

[Aiden]

And when they made that decision and.

[Doug]

Again, too expensive and also technically not the best solution.

[Aiden]

Sure. Like cameras. Just focusing on that.

[Doug]

Right, right. It's both. Which is important to recognize. But. Yes.

[Aiden]

But when they said that, my understanding is that lidar was like as exp. Expensive is up to $15,000 of additional. You got to put on the car.

[Doug]

Yes.

[Aiden]

And now at the time of Luminar and all this, the cost is going down to like 500 to a grand. Like it's dropped dramatic.

[Brandon]

That cheap.

[Doug]

Yes.

[Aiden]

It's gotten way.

[Doug]

It used to be tens of thousands and now it's hundreds is the estimates.

[Brandon]

Wait.

[Aiden]

And so in the future, you can imagine it getting insanely. You know, if that continues, we get it down to.

[Brandon]

Even if it was at that price, like if that's the price that it takes to be that on system, to be that safe, then think of the. How is that.

[Aiden]

He's making a good point. Well, as a business major, I'm actually switching right back to Dick. Yeah. I mean, my side, I. But it feels like. It feels like a needless cost cut when it's getting this cheap. I think the LIDAR stands are. The LIDAR stands are starting to make waves. I don't know, it feels having a.

[Doug]

Moment, it's worth reiterating because I think a lot of people miss this point. Is that it's not just cost. It is. The bigger argument is that having your engineering Team focused on just a vision approach is going to allow you to do it more effectively than to spread them out across a bunch of tech that has to coordinate that is incredibly hard to do. So it's not like you just stick lidar and you got plus one stats in your car. Like it becomes much more complex. So I just want to. Yeah, so I just want to. I want to reiterate that like even.

[Aiden]

If lidar costs, Doug is my AI tutor trying to make it like, yeah.

[Brandon]

Yeah, this is good. Maybe I didn't understand this. And then I'm. I wanted to stick lidar on like my Honda Civic and no, it drives itself now I just paid the 500 works.

[Aiden]

I put LIDAR, 500 bucks.

[Doug]

As far as I can tell If LIDAR cost $1, Elon would not put them in Teslas because he thinks the better approach to actually achieving full self driving is to have a simpler vision based approach that you just get that. Again, he says it's a software problem, not a hardware problem. That's his. That's. That's the thinking. That's the thinking. I.

[Aiden]

One more thing. Anti lidar thing I want to say this is my, my most pro elon argument yet is I read that one downside of lidar is that if everybody has lidar, they interfere with each other. So if every car in the road was using lidar, they. The amount of laser, I mean, sounds so boomer. I don't know, the amount of lasers out there might interrupt the data collection or cause problem. Again, I don't know if this is true, but my understanding is that lidar could be conflicting. If there was like everyone doing it at all times. Again, we'd have to look more into this.

[Doug]

But.

[Aiden]

But that could be a problem down the road where we go, oh, lidar's great. And then there's causes, its own issues.

[Brandon]

But then all the cars are crashing all the time.

[Aiden]

Be kind of cool though, like Fast and the furious.

[Doug]

Do you think we could ship all of the lidar lasers using a fleet from the Jones act.

[Aiden]

Oh my God.

[Doug]

Which was created after World War I to help preserve shipping lanes in the United States.

[Aiden]

Oh, I didn't know you were dealing with the profession.

[Doug]

We wouldn't.

[Brandon]

We choose not to do it because of the Jones.

[Aiden]

I don't know what you guys are talking about.

[Brandon]

I like, I like us not getting into this so we can have something that me and you know. But.

[Doug]

Yeah, like a little secret. Yeah.

[Aiden]

Referencing around it like, oh, the Jones act.

[Brandon]

Classic Jones act.

[Doug]

Put on earmuffs. I don't think you deserve this.

[Aiden]

Teach me about the Jones Act. AI tutor. Teach me.

[Brandon]

Your AI tutor is loading his Jones Act. Well, I thought this would be interesting to talk about because I've heard about this law coming up in a bunch of videos explaining shipping logistics in different parts of the US So I watched a video about how Hawaii handles their shipping between islands or from the mainland, and then a video about basically the decline of Puerto Rico and how the Jones act affects Puerto Rico. And then I was like, oh, this is really interesting. And I think at a time when like, you know, a terrorist especially. But I would say protectionism in general is a big talking point of, you know, the Trump administration. Fans of Trump like the idea that we're isolating as Americans and becoming better independently and we don't need to rely on this like global economic system anymore, things like that. So the Jones act is. It started in 1920, was put in place in 1920 in the wake of World War I.

[Aiden]

Okay.

[Brandon]

The Jones act is a law that requires any like water based shipping, so even on a river to be done by a ship that was built in the US Owned by a US company and crude only by Americans.

[Aiden]

Usa.

[Brandon]

You very pro USA law. And the idea was in the wake.

[Aiden]

Of World War I, sorry, any ship that's delivering to America or.

[Brandon]

What do you mean any, any ship there. So any ship that is delivering goods between American ports.

[Aiden]

Okay. Yeah. I was like. Because China wouldn't send a ship here with. Okay, so any American. American to America.

[Brandon]

So, so the, the way, the way this law, an example of how this law affects things now is say there's a Chinese shipping company. Right?

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And they have a boat that they built in Korea.

[Aiden]

Okay.

[Brandon]

And that boat picks some stuff up in Long beach and it is not allowed to pick up stuff in Long beach and then bring it to Seattle. That's illegal.

[Aiden]

Nowhere else in America.

[Brandon]

Nowhere else in America can they make.

[Aiden]

A round trip to Cuba and stop there. And then.

[Brandon]

Okay, so that's the weird thing is, is yes, technically if they interrupt the trip by going somewhere else first, they can then just do that probably all the time. No, but they don't because there's not a, there's not a ton of like use cases where that is super effective. There's a similar law that applies to passenger boats and they do do that. That's why all the ferries that go from like Washington to Alaska stop in Vancouver. They have to, so they have to.

[Doug]

Like ping pong between countries because they're.

[Brandon]

Not they're not on Jones act compliant ships.

[Aiden]

That's so funny.

[Brandon]

So basically the idea was if we put this protectionist law into place, the US Will always have a, a thriving like, maritime shipping industry that is not only good for America on the whole, but is good for like military and like security reasons. So when we get into a big naval war, we have like a, a shipping fleet to deploy.

[Aiden]

Okay.

[Brandon]

But what they didn't plan for is.

[Doug]

There were no downsides.

[Brandon]

They were. And there were no downsides. And that end of the thriving American shipping industry. The, the problem we've arrived at is they didn't expect global shipping to like blow up as, as it, as much as it did in the future after the fact. And the.

[Aiden]

I love his cute little notebook. They make fun of him on the yard. Yeah. Because they never seen him like this. So they watch this show and they're like, he's got his little notebook. Usually he's talking about piss and shit and farting.

[Doug]

The yard, like Mystery Science Theater. They're just watching our show, making fun of Aiden the whole time.

[Brandon]

That's all they do. But ships started getting built in other places outside of the US because it was way more cost effective to do that.

[Aiden]

Yeah, I mean, are you. Can I say stat?

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

55% of all shipbuilding globally is done in China.

[Brandon]

Yeah, dude, get this. As of 2018, and this was, the trajectory was still going up, 91% of shipbuilding happens in China, Korea and in Japan. So the entire like shipyard industry, like ship manufacturing industry in the US it just doesn't exist anymore. All of these companies went out of business and they don't have enough Jones act compliant clients to like keep a business open.

[Aiden]

There's enough demand from that.

[Brandon]

So it's funny because when I was reading through this, there was like the paper that I was reading was from 2020 and it was talking about how few shipyards are left in the US that even make these types of ships anymore. And it was like. And one of the few remaining ones is about to close. It's called like the Philly. The Philly shipyard. So I looked up the shipyard, the name of that shipyard. Now the Hanwha Philly Shipyard.

[Doug]

A true American institution in 2024.

[Aiden]

It had been talk shit about Philly the Eagles or Hanwha Shipping.

[Brandon]

It had been bought. It had been bought. Bought by a South Korean company. Yeah, a South Korean company. So isn't it. That's, that's. It was really funny to like, oh, they. That happened. It got bought out. And the consequences of this in, in short, are that we have a really limited supply of compliant boats that are even able to fulfill this purpose anymore. They're more expensive to use. So for any goods that like Hawaii has to get, for example, or coastal states in general, the price of goods shipped on those things is like really, really expensive because there's only a couple companies that even do this type of shipping. So there's way lower supply. These, they're way less efficient and they charge way more because they basically have monopolies on the other side.

[Doug]

No competition.

[Brandon]

And this grand shipyard industry that was meant to produce, like having this giant fleet and all these, these companies like protected actually has crumbled and fallen, fallen apart. And the people that suffer the most are like a really explicit example is the Hurricane Maria hit Puerto Rico and like devastated Puerto Rico a couple years ago.

[Doug]

Right.

[Aiden]

And they were turning around ships for the Jones act.

[Brandon]

And yeah, and that was a big thing is like they couldn't get emergency supplies because the Jones act affects those crazy. Those ships. And they had to. They were requesting to like lift the law for a period. And Trump eventually caved and lifted it for a week. But he said basically the companies that benefit from this, like really don't want us to do this. That's like. And during Hurricane Katrina they did the same thing. It's like this law is so harmful that during disasters they literally temporarily remove it.

[Aiden]

Right. Otherwise a few companies will surcharge. Yeah.

[Brandon]

But even like day to day, like things like fuel supply supplies are either way more expensive or less accessible. Or these places turn to maybe foreign countries instead because they can offer those goods at a way lower price. So you're losing like the economic benefit from that.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And then also anything that you would ship over water that might be cheaper normally gets pushed into like other transportation industries in the US that are like further burdened. Like the supply of shipping space in the US brought to you by like things like trucks, trains, etc. Is stretched thinner because the boats aren't really an option.

[Aiden]

So I see two options. One is we, as a podcast advocate for the repeal of the Jones act, which would be pretty cool of us. We do like a really powerful.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

Or two, we start an American owned shipping company, take advantage of this monopoly situation.

[Doug]

That's what our Patreon tier is. You get to ride on our boat.

[Brandon]

You get to be the crew on the boat.

[Aiden]

As long as you're an American citizen, you're American. You have to pretend to be.

[Brandon]

We'll get American. They pay us to Work on the boat so we can undercut the current monopoly. This is big.

[Doug]

Both companies. Think about this.

[Brandon]

Like, think about this. Think about our plan, right? Companies had just opened a Patreon and asked people to work for them.

[Aiden]

They could have made some real money.

[Brandon]

But I. The reason, the reason that I was thinking about this a lot and why I thought it was interesting is because. Because while the benefactors of this would be the remaining people that get work.

[Doug]

On ships in the U.S. work on.

[Brandon]

A ship in the U.S. and keep your job. Because honestly, if foreign companies were competing, the remaining shipping jobs that exist here, albeit very few, wouldn't exist at all because they'd be getting out. Competed by who actually staff ships now, which is like Filipino and Indian workers who are much cheaper to pay. Right.

[Doug]

And the boats cost way less.

[Brandon]

And the boats cost way less than.

[Doug]

Half for a third of the price or something to make a boat in China or Korea for better quality. Yes. It's like we just, we just have expensive boats that you then have to use to move something from Puerto Rico to Florida.

[Brandon]

Yeah, that's. We have to. And the new. And an example of like an industry that existed, basically existed way smaller scale back then is like natural gas. They get moved around on big tanker boats. American tanker boats do not exist. There are none. They literally doesn't exist. So a place like Puerto Rico that might be able to get like natural gas, which we produce. I don't know if you know this. We've been drilling.

[Aiden]

I do know this.

[Brandon]

We've been drilling.

[Aiden]

We're kind of a natural gas goat.

[Doug]

Lot of W's for American.

[Brandon]

You can send American gas to Puerto Rico at like a really cheap rate. But because this law exists list that you can't do that. And then they. So they. A lot of that excess gas would get sold to like other countries. And then Puerto Rico's buying their gas from other countries.

[Aiden]

Dude, there's so much of that happening. There's so much of like we put like a restriction on buying Russian oil or something. And then Russian oil just goes to India and then goes from India to the state. You know, like if Europe restricts it, they just go to India and then sell it to Europe.

[Brandon]

The circumvention of tariffs is so interesting.

[Aiden]

Like Vietnam is like of thriving because it is not China. But you can just put something from China to Vietnam, slap a sticker on it. And like there's all these ways of getting around tariffs and protectionism and it's okay. So okay with all this being said, I Think we can agree this rule's not working. But I personally think that America having some sort of shipbuilding industry is valuable especially in a world where you know, they're at tensions with China having all of it there is kind of of spooky in that world. So do you have any thoughts of like what you would do to. To do you solve this problem for everyone?

[Brandon]

So yeah, if I could just solve this quickly right now. This like huge geopolitical issue. Well, that's the thing right. Is like this law actually has nothing to do protect that at all.

[Aiden]

It didn't protect, it didn't work.

[Brandon]

And, and, and so we're, we're in a worse spot.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

This makes no sense compared to even back then. I, I don't, I don't really have the answer. Like you'd have to like why do.

[Doug]

I listen to the show?

[Aiden]

If we're not solve the shipbuilding crisis in America, then why are they tuning in?

[Brandon]

Aiden, the only thing I can think of is you would have to.

[Doug]

The solution is right on watching.

[Aiden]

The solution is on the Patreon. You have to do the tier three.

[Doug]

We'll tell one person on our boat.

[Brandon]

One, one lucky tier three subscriber who works on the boat and we'll whisper it to them as we send them off into open water. I, I think I would love to hear a better approach or answer. The only thing I can think of is stuff similar to the chips act right. Like you have to subsidize and basically invest and spend a bunch of money to make making a ship in the US cheap enough to make it competitive. That's the only thing you can do. From what I know.

[Doug]

Yeah. And my understanding is arguably it's like, so this is what we're doing instead of the government subsidizing a shipping industry is we force Americans to, to pay more to get their stuff shipped. And particularly like Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Alaska just have to pay way more for all their shit because it has to be shipped on these boats that are old and expensive and there's not very many of them. And so the biggest advocates to repealing the Jones act are Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Alaska, anybody who doesn't live in the contiguous United States because you just have to pay way more. So arguably instead of our government subsidizing our shipping fleet, it's Puerto Ricans like subsidizing our shipping fleet and just paying.

[Aiden]

Taxing these three states to give the money to small dying shipping companies.

[Doug]

Right. Like it is, it is ridiculous.

[Brandon]

Which are like price gouging and yeah.

[Aiden]

You put it that way. It's kind of like we have.

[Doug]

Hawaii is like, a very important state that everybody loves, and then we're just like, yeah, but we're going to make it super expensive for you guys to get anything. It's like, it's wild. I, Yeah, I would lean more towards just straight up government subsidies because it just. I. I just don't think it makes sense. And I know free markets have downside, but, like, in this case, I would rather our. Our shipyards have to compete and we have a smaller amount that are actually good rather than what we have, which is a bunch of expensive, slow, shitty fleets, and then everybody's paying more for stuff. I just don't see how this benefits.

[Brandon]

There's a. There's a funny story about Hawaiian farmers choosing to. To air in cows to the mainland instead of using boats because of this law.

[Doug]

That's like a far side car.

[Aiden]

Three cows first class.

[Doug]

That's what the Wright brothers were imagining. They're like, finally, Hawaiians can get their cows easily to California. Yeah.

[Brandon]

It's not like. It's not like it's all roses. On the other side of this is like, okay, well, what happens when you let, like, like, full competition take place? It's like, you know, there's a bunch of scrutiny of the quality of work conditions on boats and the low wages you get to pay these people from the Philippines and India that often staff these boats. Like, it's not like the other side is, like, filled with. Filled with good. It's just that there's a bunch of people in the US Particularly in those places, that suffer because of this decision.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And the only people that benefit are the people who have the monopolies on the remaining shipping left and the people who have jobs at those shipping companies. And at the individual level, I'm sure they would like to keep their jobs. It's kind of. We didn't talk about this on an episode, but we did talk about this together was the efficiency of ports in the US Versus the efficiency.

[Aiden]

Oh, either way, that was one of our first conversations.

[Brandon]

We were thinking about this, doing this podcast, and it's. You know, there. There was a big. It was when we were at the dinner, like, where we were talking about, like, what we wanted the show to be, and I thought that conversation is very similar. It's like, obviously people want to keep their jobs and do not want to suffer in the wake of a decision that would, like, like, repeal this law. Right. But how many people are suffering on the other end because this law exists.

[Aiden]

Other side, for sure.

[Doug]

I think it's like, I. I don't know the number. I believe it's like either a hundred thousand, between 100,000 and like a couple hundred thousand people are employed by the Jones act shipping stuff. So it's like you lose that, and that's not insignificant.

[Brandon]

Yeah, that's a lot of people.

[Doug]

But then, you know, again, the other side of the coin is there are millions and millions and millions of people in the United States and various areas who are paying way more basically so that those people have jobs. And it's like, is that. Dude, the other. The other thing that. I would be more stoked about repealing the Jones act if Trump was not burning all of the bridges with Japan and Korea, who are the only ones who could make our ships if we go to war with China. You know, it's like, I generally am all about free market, but then when you also burn the bridges to the rest of the market, then it's like.

[Aiden]

You have to be able to make it yourself. Right.

[Brandon]

You can't do both.

[Doug]

That's one thing I've read about a little bit, which is bigger conversation. But, like, if we go to war, as far as my understanding, like, America is completely porked right now. Like, we can't build ships. We can't build most of our stuff. All the raw materials comes from other countries. So, like, we just would not be able to build things. And then I don't know if that helps or hurts that if we repeal the Jones act and then there's more common competition. I don't know, man. It's. It's a little.

[Aiden]

I think, regardless, hopefully there's no war with China. Right. Regardless of that, I think this Jones is not doing what it was intended to do, which is protect American ship building.

[Brandon]

I'm actually pro. We should just get.

[Aiden]

Try to get you. Try to get it over with.

[Doug]

It's the villain.

[Aiden]

You always are talking on. My man G. He's in. He's the go.

[Brandon]

No, we're buds. Have you seen my Discord profile picture right now?

[Aiden]

Have you seen this?

[Doug]

Yeah, you're with Profile.

[Brandon]

Somebody like, drew me hanging out with Xi Jinping with. With the yard and Chinese flag waving below us and F35s flying above us.

[Aiden]

I know what's happening. He's a sleeper agent from China here to destroy our shipbuilding industry with this fake propaganda.

[Brandon]

The law is so bad.

[Aiden]

So, yeah, it's already Chinese. It's all comes in here with me.

[Brandon]

So bad, so sick. I open up My next notepad comes.

[Doug]

In with your little white book, trying to spread your lies to the youth.

[Brandon]

But, yeah, I just thought it's. It. One thing it was making me think of as a final note, and I. I would love to hear if people in the audience have, like, more thoughts about this too. Is this something that had, I think obviously good intentions fell apart because of, like, other factors outside of the law that it could not control, and then the complete purpose of the law was, like, totally subverted.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

So I do wonder if there's, you know, when you look at protectionist legislation in the future, what are the, like, the little loopholes and potential consequences of. Of. Of that? So I don't know. It was interesting.

[Aiden]

Doug, you had some drama. You had two drama.

[Doug]

We can end this on some juicy ass drama.

[Aiden]

Let me hear this drama.

[Doug]

Okay.

[Aiden]

I don't know what this topic is.

[Doug]

I have got juicy drama in the world. Dun Dun. Of HR SaaS Companies.

[Aiden]

This is not juicy.

[Doug]

This is juicy. This is juicy.

[Aiden]

Guys, our software as a service, right?

[Brandon]

Like, yeah, like Adobe subscriptions.

[Doug]

No, like, they help with payroll.

[Aiden]

Like, yeah, it's like you get. Wait, payroll.

[Brandon]

He's actually got me hooked.

[Doug]

Okay, all right.

[Brandon]

I have to browse that.

[Doug]

Aiden's gonna know. Know about all the HR drama. And you're not.

[Aiden]

Dude, you're gonna wonder if I left out. I was on the monkey in the middle.

[Brandon]

What did Gusto do this time?

[Doug]

Okay, all right.

[Brandon]

This.

[Doug]

This is all. I swear this is all real. I'm not exaggerating. Okay? There's a bunch of HR companies. You got work day, right? Everybody loves workday. They. I mean, they all hate it, but I hate it. Any. Any major company has some sort of HR software. It helps with, like, employees and contracting and. And payroll and all this other stuff, right? All this, like, not very fun stuff stuff. But this is a huge business.

[Aiden]

Okay?

[Doug]

So two of the newer players are rippling and deal. Deal spelled D, E, E or sorry, D E, E, L. So deal. So these two, they're actually. They're both growing really rapidly. They kind of specialize a little bit in one thing versus the other. But for the most part, it's like, here's all the HR tools you need for your business. They're evaluated most recently is like, two years ago at 12 billion and 13 billion. They are, like, neck and neck, and they're, like, ultra competitive.

[Aiden]

Okay.

[Doug]

Okay. And so you might think, yeah, who cares? That's not very interesting. They start beefing, okay. They start to, like, pretty aggressively pursue each other's. Customers. Right? Because they go for businesses, you know, and so they're like, they go, Nike is, I think with Deal. So Rippling goes. It's like, hey, we're. We used to come over to Rippling. We have a better business. All this stuff. And so at some point recently, Deal. And I have it up here. Oh, I'll accept all the cookies. Deal. The one of the two services they post something called Deal vs Ripple.

[Aiden]

It's on their website.

[Doug]

This is on their website. And they're.

[Brandon]

This is kind of wrong, right? We went to Coke's website and it was just Coke versus Pepsi.

[Aiden]

Then pouring a Pepsi in the trash.

[Brandon]

Yeah, that'd be.

[Doug]

Guys, trust me, this is the least dramatic it gets.

[Aiden]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Doug]

So this is the start deal. The HR company post Deal versus Rippling. And they're like, we have all these entities, integrations, payment methods. Get started. Here's the company. Deal is rated higher than rippling in 74% of the shared markets. It's just this straight up, hey, here's a comparison.

[Brandon]

This is so funny. It's like the Comparing product graph.

[Doug]

It's a comparing of like their two subscriptions, except it's their company checking every box and Rippling failing over and over and over. It's like automate it Operations X.

[Aiden]

No, more like a Mark Rober video though. Right, Right. Set up.

[Brandon]

All right, so.

[Doug]

So Deal throws out a punch, right? And so Rippling strikes back. How do you think Rippling would reply? You might think they'll make their own page. No, no, no. What Rippling did is they introduce a Snake game. And so they make an actual game of Snake where you move around and you have to get little items, right? And they say, don't buy snake oil. Deal claims to be a one stop solution for your global payroll needs. But their customers pay the price. Play this game to find out the difference. And then as you play this game, this Snake game. Okay, I don't know if I can play it on this iPad here, but you. It shows a claim. Oh, I can. It shows a claim from Deal and then when you go and you get it, it shows you the actual thing that they said. Deals, marketing claim, pay anywhere, pay anyone anywhere in minutes. Reality could take days to run. Global payroll.

[Aiden]

That's brutal.

[Doug]

As you play the Snake game, each one unlocks a letter for the word mislead. At one point, somebody from Rippling posts a screenshot. One of the executives from Deal played the game and sent in feedback, which is suck a dick with a big dick. Asky art. So they start, they're now full on beefing. They were always competitors on the market. Now they're just like full on making these insane things.

[Aiden]

This is the Kendrick of versus Drake.

[Brandon]

Of like payroll services.

[Aiden]

Payroll services.

[Doug]

Except they're.

[Aiden]

Yeah, they're both guys wearing a Patagonia vest and they're pretty awesome.

[Doug]

Yeah. So it's getting pretty intense, right? And you're like, all right, this is funny. And then on Monday, two days ago, the CEO of Rippling releases a tweet and he says, today Rippling sued Deal. Our lawsuit alleges that Deal cultivated a spy at Rippling and orchestrated a long running trade theft secret or trade secret theft. Okay, so let me break down what exactly goes on in this very detailed lawsuit where they break down what happened. They turns out at Rippling use Slack and they have logs for everything somebody does on Slack, including which channels they search for and look at. And they find out that there's a they, they think a spy and a new employee who keeps searching in Slack for Deal stuff. So he joins Rippling and he just starts searching in every single channel for anything related to Deal and any customers that Deal has and searching for like, like customers that Rippling is trying to get from Deal so he could leave.

[Aiden]

So he could leave and they can stop.

[Doug]

And so they're like, we think we have a spy. This employee, it has nothing to do with his job, but he keeps looking into what Deal is doing. Okay? So, so they're like, we want to see if this guy is actually a spy. And so they honey pot him. And they make a fake Slack channel called D. It's like D Defectors. Yeah, yeah, D defectors. They make a new Slack channel that didn't exist. And they send a letter to Deal's chairman, CFO and general counsel that says, hey guys, just so you know, Deal us at Rippling, we have a new Slack channel where we talk about all the stuff we have on you and if you ever mess with us again, we're going to release all of it. Literally, just honeypot, make this up. Right. Within four hours. The alleged spy is now searching for this new channel which was made specifically for this. So the honeypot works. This guy, who is maybe a spy, immediately starts searching for this new channel that has not existed a day before. And it's all made up. Ok, it gets better. They go to the High Court of Ireland and they get a court order that they're going to go take his phone. They show up to his desk with a court examiner like A court appointed person who's legally authorized to detain this guy. And he runs into the bathroom and locks the door and tries to flush the phone down the toilet. So the guy is banging on the door saying, you are violating court orders. You have to come out right now. He refuses to respond. After a while, he finally comes out and you can see here the quote. He says, if you take another step, you're violating court order again. And he says, I'm willing to take that risk. And then he flees the premises.

[Aiden]

That's crazy.

[Doug]

So the spy got away and he took his phone with him. So they didn't get the phone. They even in the lawsuit, they're like, we looked through our plumbing system and did not find a phone. They went and looked for it. Okay, so. So this is in. This is insane. I told you the most dramatic thing. And the response from Deal is crazy, right? This is HR companies. And so Deal's response so far, this is two days ago, said weeks after. Okay, so, so they. They try to go back on the offensive. And this is basically the end. But weeks after Rippling is accused of violating sanctions laws in Russia and ceding falsehoods about Deal, Rippling is trying to shift the narrative away. We deny all legal wrongdoing and legal wrongdoing. And so they're like, oh, yeah, Rippling, well, you guys are selling to the Russians. And then it follows up in one of the articles. However, Deal itself has also been accused of violating sanctions against Russia, according to a lawsuit filed in Florida earlier this year. So both of them are accused of violating sanctions in Russia, which they're using to distract from the spy which has been stealing trade secrets from Rippling. It is insane.

[Aiden]

It is 50 times funnier than its HR software. As a service, it's the most boring.

[Doug]

Industry with the most scandalous shit going on. Fun.

[Aiden]

Oh, maybe that's awesome.

[Brandon]

Shouldn't have made fun of Gusto before this.

[Aiden]

They've got Hitman doing fine.

[Brandon]

Who. Who do you think? Who do you think blew up Nordstream?

[Aiden]

Good deal, bro.

[Doug]

The deal spot, probably to put the.

[Aiden]

To cover up a different thing.

[Doug]

I can't wait to follow up. What's the.

[Aiden]

Is the spy gonna get arrested?

[Doug]

Is he on the lamb?

[Aiden]

Like, is he running? If you're a deal and you hire a spy by this guy is the goat. This guy really didn't crack under pressure. I know.

[Doug]

He ran. He was. He tried to flush his toilet and then ran away and said, I'm willing to go to jail.

[Aiden]

Wild.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

I was thinking was like, Surely your job at the HR company is not worth all this. It just can't be.

[Aiden]

Right. Like, how much is Deal paying him?

[Brandon]

It's like you're not fighting for like the security of your countrymen.

[Aiden]

You're.

[Brandon]

There's no.

[Aiden]

There's real life spies who've cracked these.

[Brandon]

Exactly. There's no, like a nationalism like, or security at stake or something. It's. It's for payroll.

[Doug]

Men used to go to war. Now they fight for HR companies. Right. We need something to galvanize our youth because they're just going to do this instead. They're going to scroll on their phones and they're going to go be a spy for Deal. The funniest thing about this to me is that they sent this letter, this honeypot letter to Deals. It's. It's.

[Aiden]

Honey Pot is brilliant. That's a smart.

[Doug]

The honey pot's insane. They sent this to only the top people at Deal. So this one of the top people.

[Aiden]

That is a senior person at a.

[Doug]

$12 billion HR company is personally orchestrating a spy in their competitor and telling them, hey, we just got info about the D defectors channel.

[Brandon]

Get us the info.

[Aiden]

Crazy. Do you think the Yardle will figure out who our spy is in their discord?

[Brandon]

What?

[Aiden]

No, nothing. I just. I hope they don't murder and kill our spy because they figured it out.

[Doug]

It would be like.

[Aiden]

Like a huge.

[Brandon]

Okay, is it realized.

[Doug]

I'm going to get a. You and I are going to get a letter. The Yard has found some incriminating evidence against lemonade stands.

[Brandon]

How did you find this story?

[Aiden]

Yeah, what did you hear about?

[Doug]

This is Twitter, man. This is where the hot stuff happens.

[Brandon]

The Everything app, man.

[Aiden]

You can.

[Doug]

You can go to Mars from watching basketball.

[Brandon]

You can learn my covering all the bases right now. Do you guys. I. I figured it might be nice to close out on a couple. Like, you know, we wanted to follow up on a couple topics from the previous videos just to.

[Doug]

Yeah, let's do it quick.

[Aiden]

Check out the comments. And I think it's what we're saying that I think all of us have spent a lot of times reading some of these great comments people put in the last two episodes. Yeah, yeah, we've been responding and singing there and it's been great. I think we super appreciate it. The. That was like number one thing we were looking for for this for the show is like, like well thought out. Interesting perspectives and thoughts. He will have it on this one, I'm sure. That's cool.

[Brandon]

I think from the first episode, because we even touched on it again in this one was the, you know, people dealing with the consequences of going through the education system during COVID And a lot of people, I think that was probably the thing we got the most personal like responses and anecdotes about it. And I would say the pervasive sentiment was basically negative. People talking about their experience and a lot of people saying things like this. The conversation on socializing post Covid really resonated with me because I was a junior in high school in 2020 and can definitely attest that it altered my abilities and desires to socialize. I was already really introverted and instead of trying to fight against the isolation, I basically took advantage of it as a way to get used to not needing peers around me. I know now that this was probably a mistake and I'm paying the price in my social life for it. It now that I'm in college. I don't know anyone who also went through the hyper isolationist route as I did, but I'm sure they're out there. And from reading the comments, I think that that experience was very, very similar between people. A lot of people kind of maybe not even necessarily having the worst time during COVID but then coming out of it and then trying to get back to normal and then realizing that everything.

[Doug]

Is ironically the isolationists there might be the most amount of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brandon]

It's the most there's ever been. But I really appreciate it because we got a lot of personal stories that I read through related to that topic and a lot of stories really similar to that one. The one thing I wanted to follow up about from the last episode was on when we were talking about self driving cars and the potential of robo taxis and also the idealistic structure of cities with trains and things like that. A few people came out and said that we're just a bunch of city guys and we. And we don't get it. And our public transport utopia and the fact that we like trains all. I think we're generally in favor of like, oh, trains are nice to have in cities and a good way to get around. Seem to think that we don't think cars should exist in rural America. And that was actually a surprising amount of comments. I wanted to clarify something because I thought it was a good demonstration of what I call good faith versus bad faith arguments.

[Doug]

Oh, okay. All right. I didn't know where you're going. Okay, I'm buckling in.

[Brandon]

Yeah, it's a really simple example of like, I think People jump to the conclusion that because I want, like, more trains and less waffles thing.

[Aiden]

Have you heard that?

[Brandon]

No.

[Aiden]

If you say I like pancakes, someone on Twitter will say, we have against waffles.

[Brandon]

Exactly.

[Aiden]

What do you hate about waffles?

[Brandon]

Exactly. This is what bad faith is, is when. When you are listening to us explain a topic or like, talk about something and we miss an aspect of the conversation, like something doesn't get touched on and you assume that because it wasn't touched on that we disagree with it, that we inherently have the opposition opinion to you.

[Aiden]

Well, just to clarify, I do want to take your car away. If you live in a rural part of America, I would like you to ride a horse because that's my image of like a cool.

[Brandon]

And that's a you should have horses. Sources in rural America.

[Aiden]

That's mine.

[Doug]

So I think you should, like, if I get something wrong, give us the benefit of doubt. Assume I'm right.

[Aiden]

Just assume that you have it wrong.

[Doug]

Right.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And that's just some basic common decency. Just.

[Brandon]

Just believe.

[Aiden]

Just believe.

[Doug]

He's got a microphone. Yeah. Yeah.

[Aiden]

If there's a microphone.

[Doug]

Yeah. I have more subscribers than you like.

[Brandon]

And there's a reason.

[Doug]

Right?

[Brandon]

There's a reason.

[Doug]

Right, Right. That's true. Okay.

[Brandon]

Yeah. There was. There was also, obviously a lot of people. There was a. Yeah. The comments weren't as freque as I thought, but the people we were making fun of that were going to be like, Doug, such a Tesla shill. Like, there was a couple people like that and I was. It was always like a flag of like, you didn't make it to the part in the one you tuned out at the beginning of the episode, dude. But two, Two, you just ignored the part the. The bombshell you saved where you're like, and I sold all my Tesla stock today because I don't believe this.

[Doug]

I.

[Aiden]

Can I say this one more? I said on my stream, and I said this in the comments. I responded. Some of the people that said this. When you're taking the position of, like, trying to find some defense of what Tesla's doing, it's the harder one for the audience that we're going to attract and have. It's harder to do. It's very easy to be the guy that's like, hey, Tesla sucks.

[Doug]

You know, everyone's like, yeah, yeah, it is actually easier to condemn the guy who did the Nazi. It actually is easier.

[Brandon]

And we don't even know what it was.

[Doug]

Yeah, that's true. That's true.

[Aiden]

And it makes for a much better podcast to have people having differing opinions.

[Doug]

And you know what? My heart goes out to all the people in chat who I like. I think we should strive to have a couple, like, uninformed, loud people. You know, that's. That brings light to the comment section.

[Brandon]

I actually thought a good, A good litmus test for this is if you've made it this far in the episode, when you. And you have a comment you want to make, put two asterisks just at the end of your comment, whatever it is, and it's just a sign that you heard this part of the episode.

[Doug]

I just want to see.

[Aiden]

You're trying to do the deal thing. No, no, no, no.

[Brandon]

I just want to see. I just want to see this one time. I won't ask for it again. But that conversation came up a lot. And I, I thought I'd. I'd clarify is like, I think. I don't know if I've ever met anybody in my entire life that has said, let's get rid of all the cars in, like, rural America and suburbia, like, legitimately has that opinion.

[Aiden]

No, I don't know either.

[Brandon]

And I was like, so why would that be ours? And, you know, the idealistic form of these things I think is like, like, okay, well, you have a really good public transportation system that lets people basically choose to have a car or not if they really want.

[Aiden]

Right?

[Brandon]

Because I think the way cities are structured now, like in la, in la, you basically have no choice. No, in practice, like, it's not literally a tax, but it is a tax on every person because you have no choice. You have to pay for your car, pay for your maintenance, pay for your insurance, and those are expenses that, I guess, freedom, I don't know. The freedom of choice is giving you, like, it's not really a choice. Choice at all. And the idea is like, providing city infrastructure that frees up people from that. People from that. From that decision.

[Aiden]

And on that note, I'd like you to leave your angriest comment you can as we wrap up episode three hashtags before it.

[Doug]

If it's. If you got this far in the.

[Brandon]

In the video secret, three hashtags. Right?

[Doug]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandon]

People who just clicked out and made their comment right after I said that.

[Doug]

If you're a 3 hashtagger, you can go reply to the two asteriskers and you can be like you. You are committed at all.

[Brandon]

If you're 3 hashtagger, first dibs on the Jones act boats. You just get the smut come out.

[Doug]

All right. Oh, is that last one?

[Aiden]

I think so.

[Doug]

That's pretty much to close it out. I did actually bring Atrioc a lemon this time. He will eat the entire thing.

[Aiden]

You were going to eat this this whole time?

[Doug]

That's. I've been telling my stream that you're gonna eat it in one bite.

[Aiden]

I've been. You've been saying off camera that it's going to be you. I also bit the Styrofoam one. I'll split it with you.

[Doug]

All right. Thanks so much for watching everybody's great episode. See you next time.

[Brandon]

Oh, it's just.

[Aiden]

Oh, no.

[Brandon]

It just can't be pleasant.

[Aiden]

I'm okay. Actually, I'm not hungry. That's gross. Doug, are your eyes watering? Good episode. Good episode.

[Doug]

Boys.