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Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
The hidden power of introverts: How to thrive without changing who you are | Susan Cain (author of "Quiet")
01:17:55
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- [00:00]
Susan Cain
I see introversion and extroversion in general as just two different kinds of strengths. The problem in our culture is just that we emphasize one type of strength, the extroverted strength, usually more than we do, the introverted strength, but that they're equally valuable.
- [00:14]
Lenny Rachitsky
It's probably not this binary thing. You're introvert. Extrovert is a spectrum of introvertedness. Extrovertedness. Do people move along the spectrum often? I feel like I've definitely become more extroverted over time.
- [00:24]
Susan Cain
I've had the exact same trajectory you just described. I used to be terrified of public speaking. Now I do it all the time. I used to be quite shy, but that's not really describing. I don't believe becoming more extroverted, that's more describing acquiring skills. As we grow and gain experience, we acquire all kinds of skills.
- [00:43]
Lenny Rachitsky
What people most want is just like, how do I become potentially more extroverted? Slash less. Allow introvertedness to hurt me in my career.
- [00:49]
Susan Cain
This is a paradox that I have observed that the more introverts become, like, deeply comfortable in their own skin, that's when they start to show up at the job interview or on the stage in a more powerful way. Because you're now there as your own true being, as opposed to there always being a voice in your head saying, I'm not really supposed to be me.
- [01:11]
Lenny Rachitsky
How can you help people believe this is actually true? That you can be just as successful being very true to yourself versus learning to be an extrovert.
- [01:18]
Susan Cain
One of the most important things you can do.
- [01:24]
Lenny Rachitsky
Today, my guest is Susan Cain. Susan is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Quiet the Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking. Her books have been translated into 40 languages. Her TED talks have been viewed over 50 million times, and she basically made me and every other introvert in the world feel okay about being an introvert and showed that actually embracing that about yourself can unlock a ton of opportunity and success in your life. In our conversation, Susan shares a ton of very tangible advice for how to be more successful in business as an introvert, including what skills you should actually be building that don't come naturally to you. Also, what actually is an introvert? How to raise kids who might be introverted and so much more. This was such a wonderful conversation and so much of it resonated with me. This episode is for anyone who considers themselves an introvert or if you work with people who are introverts and you want to learn how to help them thrive, if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Susan Cain. This episode is brought to you by Interpret. Interpret unifies all your customer interactions, from Gong calls to Zendesk tickets to Twitter threads to App Store reviews and makes it available for analysis. It's trusted by leading product orgs like Canva, notion, loom, linear, Monday.com and strava to bring the voice of the customer into the product development process, helping you build best in class products faster. What makes Interpret special is its ability to build and update customer specific AI models that provide the most granular and accurate insights into your business. Connect customer insights to revenue and operational data in your CRM or data warehouse to map the business impact of each customer need and prioritize confidently and empower your entire team to easily take action on use cases like win loss analysis, critical bug detection and identifying drivers of Churn with Interpret's AI Assistant Wisdom looking to automate your feedback loops and prioritize your roadmap with confidence like Notion, Canva and Linear. Visit e n t E-R-P-R-E-T.com Lenny to connect with the team and get two free months when you sign up for an annual plan. This is a limited time offer. That's interpret.com Lenny this episode is brought to you by Vanta and I am very excited to have Christina Cacioppo, sitting CEO and co Founder of Vanta, joining me for this very short conversation.
- [03:48]
Christina Cacioppo
Great to be here. Big fan of the podcast and the newsletter.
- [03:51]
Lenny Rachitsky
Vanta is a longtime sponsor of the show, but for some of our newer listeners, what does Vanta do and who is it for sure?
- [03:59]
Christina Cacioppo
So we started Vanta in 2018, focused on founders, helping them start to build out their security programs and get credit for all of that hard security work with compliance certifications like SOC2 or ISO2701. Today we currently help over 9,000 companies, including some startup household names like Atlassian, Ramp and LangChain, start and scale their security programs and ultimately build trust by automating compliance, centralizing GRC and accelerating security reviews.
- [04:29]
Lenny Rachitsky
That is awesome. I know from experience that these things take a lot of time and a lot of resources and nobody wants to spend time doing this.
- [04:36]
Susan Cain
That is very much our experience both.
- [04:38]
Christina Cacioppo
Before the company and to some extent during it. But the idea is with automation, with AI, with software, we are helping customers build trust with prospects and customers in an efficient way. And you know our joke, we started this compliance company so you don't have to.
- [04:53]
Lenny Rachitsky
We appreciate you for doing that. And you have a special discount for listeners. They can get a thousand dollars off vanta@vanta.com Lenny. That's V A N T A.com Lenny for $1,000 off ANTA. Thanks for that, Christina.
- [05:07]
Susan Cain
Thank you.
- [05:11]
Lenny Rachitsky
Susan. Thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.
- [05:14]
Susan Cain
Thank you so much, Lenny. It's so exciting to be here.
- [05:17]
Lenny Rachitsky
I just want to start with just from one introvert to another and from someone that would rather be sitting in a corner writing versus being on camera talking, performing a little bit. I appreciate you extra for doing this and flexing your extroverted energy.
- [05:32]
Susan Cain
Oh my gosh, absolutely. Thank you. And I, I know you haven't even asked a single question yet, but I just, in response to what you just said, because you just identified yourself as an introvert, that was actually a question I wanted to ask you because when I look at the work that you do in the world and the way that you do it, and I had never seen you on video before, I said to myself, I'm sure Lenny's an introvert. And the reason I thought that is because there's something about like the intensity with which you do your work and you're like so passionate about your subject and your, your means of success is by going super deep into your passion. And that's such an introvert thing. So I was like 95% sure.
- [06:19]
Lenny Rachitsky
That is so funny. I love that. I appreciate that. So, okay, so let me set a little foundation for folks. We kind of dove into stuff, but I think this will be helpful. We're talking about introvertedness. What, what is, what is the clearest sign you an introvert?
- [06:33]
Susan Cain
Two questions you could ask yourself if you're not really sure how you identify. So one of them is, you know, how do you feel? Like, imagine that you are going to a party or networking event that you are truly enjoying with company you truly enjoy. If you're an extrovert, you probably find this incredibly energizing. And so after two hours or so, you're looking for more because you're now hyper energized. And if you're an introvert, no matter how much you love all those people you were just talking to, your battery is probably way drained. And so after two hours you're looking for the escape route. So that's kind of one question to ask. And then another one would be if you Imagine a weekend, let's say, where you are totally free of social and professional obligations. How would you choose to spend your time? And how many people would be in the picture? And how well would you know those people? Like, would you. Would you be allocating your social time to just one or two close friends or family members? Or would you be excited about a party full of people you don't know that well? Those kinds of questions tell you a lot about what your true preferences are. And I stress that phrase, true preferences, because for introverts in an extroverted culture, we spend so much time kind of unconsciously adapting to what we think our preferences are supposed to be. That I hear from many people that they kind of have lost touch with how they actually prefer to spend their time.
- [08:20]
Lenny Rachitsky
First of all, I love the two hour, like, heuristic as a thing. I could just pay attention to after two hours. Because I could when, as you were describing initially, like, no, that'd be really cool. Just like me with a bunch of interesting people for like, if I'm an intro, if I'm an extrovert, if I enjoy that, oh, maybe I'm an extrovert. But then it's like, okay, two hours, okay. And so clearly to me, be like, yes, I'll be exhausted and want to go do something else.
- [08:43]
Susan Cain
Yeah. Even the feeling of like, you wish you could just like, push a button and be instantly home when you hit.
- [08:49]
Lenny Rachitsky
That wall, I would love that. Like, what I find is I just run out of steam. I just can't talk. I'm just like, my voice is like, I'm pushing it out. That's really interesting. Okay, so another thought I had as you were talking is, I know it's probably not this binary thing. You're introvert, extroverted. It's a spectrum of introvertedness, extrovertedness. Is there anything along those lines that's useful for people to hear? Just like, how to think about the spectrum of introvertedness?
- [09:10]
Susan Cain
Oh, yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, there is a term that psychologists have termed, that have coined for people who really are kind of neither here nor there. They're in the middle of the spectrum. So that term is ambivert. And I think that does describe a fair amount of people. But then what's also important to know is that even for people who are quite extroverted or quite introverted, like me, you know, we still have our moments when we're acting kind of out of type because humans are incredibly complex beings. So I feel like it's really Important when talking about this topic, it's like two opposite things are true. On the one hand, I really do believe that this question of how introverted or extroverted we are shapes so much about the way that we work and think and make decisions and love and interact and all the rest of it. It's like, it's hugely important. Psychologists have called it the north and south of human temperament. So that's point one. But then on the opposite side, humans are gloriously complex and there's al always a danger in talking about subjects like this and I reducing ourselves and each other to a label and then expecting ourselves and each other to behave according to that label in all circumstances. And that's of course a mistake.
- [10:39]
Lenny Rachitsky
Do people move along the spectrum often? And I ask this because I feel like I've definitely become more extroverted over time. Like, I used to be super shy and very, very afraid of public speaking and big social things. And I've just like learned to not be as much and I still definitely am. So is it common for people to move along the spectrum and did they move in both directions or is it usually from introvert to extrovert?
- [11:03]
Susan Cain
Okay, so first of all, I've had the exact same trajectory you just described. Like, I used to be terrified of public speaking. Now I do it all the time. I used to be quite shy. I, I would say I am still a shy person, but it's not as much a, a top of mind, everyday type of reality. Now that's not really describing, I don't believe becoming more extroverted, that's more describing acquiring skills and also managing fears. So, and even managing, learning to manage a fear is a type of skill. So what happens is as we grow and gain experience, we acquire all kinds of skills of the kind you were just talking about. But in terms of, but, but I still come back to that question I asked at the beginning of like, how would you spend your time when you have no obligations? Because on that score most of us actually become more introverted with time. And I don't know if you would describe yourself this way, but like, I remember for me, even though I was a shy person, you know, I like in high school, I would come home from school and spend my whole evening talking to all my friends on the phone. And I would never do that now. And, and psychologists have studied this. So like, people tend to mellow out over time. So if, if you were, let's say the, the third most extroverted person in your high school and then you go to your high school reunion. Forty years later, you'll probably still be one of the most extroverted people in your class, but all of you will have chilled out and calmed down quite a bit. And that's, that's a separate dimension from that dimension of learning to be a public speaker and all that kind of stuff.
- [12:53]
Lenny Rachitsky
That is so interesting. I never thought of it this way. I've always thought I'm getting more extroverted because I'm doing more of this sort of thing and enjoying things like this board. So interesting to reframe it into. I've just learn how to cope and be successful in these situations, but I'm still the same.
- [13:09]
Susan Cain
And it's, it's funny that you say that because I can't tell you how often people have said to me, well, they'll either say, oh, you do public speaking, so you never were an introvert. You're like, you're actually an extrovert. Or they'll say, oh, you've gotten more extroverted with time. And I would say neither of those things is true. It's just a skill.
- [13:28]
Lenny Rachitsky
Okay, this is something I definitely wanted to ask you about. So people hearing you right now, hearing you, be very confident, clear, Just like not coming across as an introvert. Also watching your TED talks, probably seeing some of your other talks, like, it's not like you don't seem like an introvert. I'm curious just what your experience of being an introvert is that might give people a glimpse into. Okay, I didn't realize this about people because I think it's common to a lot of people. You see a lot of people that are actually super introverted, but they don't seem that way. So just to give people an example of the stuff you've gone through, the stuff you deal with as an introvert that people may not see. What are some examples of that?
- [14:07]
Susan Cain
Oh, yeah. And, and to your point, I can't even tell you how many people there are out there presenting as, as quite extroverted. And then because I have this funny role in society as like the world's confessor, of introverts, um, they all come up to me at conferences and things and tell me what they're really feeling and, you know, who they really are. And it's often like people you would never suspect. But yeah, like, okay, I mean, if you look at the way I just spent my day before recording this with you, and it's Now My Time, 4:24pm so it's quite late in the day, I I've not really spoken to many people today. You know, I drove my son to and from school. My husband's out of town, so I didn't talk to him yet. And then I've been working on my laptop and walking my dog and that's been a really happy day for me. So. And I. And in general, I'm like, really, really happy lavishing a lot of social time on my family or close friends. But I don't do that much social, like, you know, technically social stuff. And in terms of. I'm not sure if you use the word overcome, but it was some kind of word like that in your question. So for things like this, you know, like super public facing stuff that I really did have to learn how to get comfortable with over time. And I used to be absolutely terrified of public speaking. Like, like lose five pounds before every speech, kind of terrified. And I want to say this for anybody out there who's listening who has this fear, because it's a lot, a lot of people that the miraculous thing is that this kind of fear, as with any type of fear, is actually overcomeable because there's this miracle kind of phenomenon that psychologists call desensitization, that basically if you have any kind of fear, you can expose yourself in very small and manageable doses to the thing that you fear and that's the way to neutralize it. So, like, I signed up before my book Quiet came out and I knew I was going to have to really be out there in the spotlight. I signed up for classes for people with public speaking anxiety. And in these classes you just had to like you. You'd start out by standing up and saying your name and then sitting down again. And that would be the whole exercise for the class. And then you'd come back a week later and do a little bit more. And that's the way to get over it. So I always encourage people like sign up for Toastmasters or something like that where you can practice speaking in supportive environments where the stakes are really low until you can retrain your brain that, that the stage is not actually a saber tooth tiger, which is what your brain currently believes it to be.
- [17:14]
Lenny Rachitsky
Okay, so let me come back to this because I think this, what people most want is just like, how do I become potentially more extroverted slash less allow introvertedness to hurt me in my career? But let me just ask you this question. This kind of like, Can I actually.
- [17:27]
Susan Cain
Stop you right there?
- [17:28]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yes.
- [17:28]
Susan Cain
I would just say, like, I totally get it, that that's what people feel that they want. But what we think we want is not always actually the way to the ultimate goal we want. Because I think what we really want is to learn to be completely comfortable as ourselves. And I, I will. I know that sounds like a, you know, kind of bland or woo woo thing to say, but this is a paradox that I have observed through all the years that I've been doing this, that, that the more introverts or anybody else become like deeply comfortable in their own skin, that's when they start to show up at the job interview or on the stage or whatever the venue is in a more powerful way. Because you're now there as your own true being as opposed to there always being a voice in your head saying, I'm not really supposed to be me, so I'm gonna like pretend to be somebody else. And people can pick that up and you can pick it up.
- [18:31]
Lenny Rachitsky
I think people hear this idea that you teach in your book that you can be very successful as an introvert. And I bet it's intellectually difficult to actually believe you can be as successful as an introvert versus being an extrovert. Because you see all these founders, they're very charismatic, extroverted. You see people at meetings, all the loud, you know, voices in the room always seem to get what they want. How do you, how can you help people believe this is actually true, that you can be just as successful being very true to yourself versus learning to be an extrovert.
- [19:05]
Susan Cain
One of the most important things you can do for whoever is listening in whatever field that you happen to be operating in, is to look for people in your field who have your way of being, who are introverted and who are powerful. And there are so many of them in every field. So just to go back to the public speaking example for a second, but then I'm going to go out from there. Like, when I was getting started as a public speaker, for me, my talisman person was Malcolm Gladwell because he's an incredibly captivating speaker. He's a self described introvert. And the power of his speaking is not, you know, being like the super energized showman, but rather he's a pretty cerebral person with a lot of interesting stuff to say. And I thought, okay, you know, not, not that my personality is exactly like his, but it's like, okay, that, that's kind of a way that I could be on stage. I can have interesting things to say that I'm very impassioned about saying. And this is true. You, you can look at so Many different fields. So, like, for example, in finance, somebody like Warren Buffett, he's a shy introvert. He has talked about this and a lot of the, a lot of the, the engine of his success is that he figured out how to draw on his own introverted strengths. So, for example, he is known for spending hours poring over financial documents. And he is known for saying that what gets people to be really good investor is not so much IQ as having the temperament to control yourself and take prudent bets, which is something that introverts are known for. There's all kinds of studies documenting this and showing introverted traders being especially successful and so on. He's also known for selecting managers very wisely and carefully and then really delegating and relying on those people, which again, is a hallmark of introverted leadership that we see in various studies and examples. Now, Warren Buffett was also somebody who started out as a shy public speaker and he signed up for one of those Dale Carnegie training classes when he was like 21. And so he learned how to be, you know, this kind of folksy guy out in public. And so there's nothing I'm saying that's against the idea of like, yes, you know, acquire the skills that you need to acquire to be successful in your given field. And yes, that might require stepping outside your comfort zone to acquire those skills. But there's a difference between acquiring skills and trying to be someone who you're not. Those are really different things. So, yes, acquire the skills, but then like, learn how to be you, you know, and whether you're a public speaker or a salesperson or a negotiator or a marketer or whatever it is, there's a way to do that in a kind of more thoughtful, more deliberative, more analytical, more listening oriented style that can be incredibly powerful. The bottom line of everything I just said is look for your role models because they're going to show you that you can do it.
- [22:32]
Lenny Rachitsky
That's such a powerful point. Just instead of assuming what you see in the media of just here's all the successful people and just assuming they're all extroverts, actually find folks that are in your orbit, that are successful, that are also introverts to kind of show you, give you evidence you can be really successful and not have to become someone else.
- [22:53]
Susan Cain
Oh yeah. And, and you know, and if you're talking about the realm of founders and startup people, like there's just so many of them, you know, especially like in the world of Silicon Valley, who comes.
- [23:04]
Lenny Rachitsky
To Mind in those examples.
- [23:06]
Susan Cain
Oh gosh. I mean like dating all the way back to, you know, Bill Gates and that era, there have just been so many.
- [23:17]
Lenny Rachitsky
This point of becoming more of who you are is connected to something that comes up a lot on this podcast of the power of connect, of leaning into your strengths and not trying to focus on your weaknesses, of just becoming more of leaning into the things you're good at and doing the things you want to accomplish through that. For example, in my experience, I'm just like, I don't, I'm not amazing, I'm not an amazing speaker, I'm not an amazing person to run meetings, but I'm much, I'm really good at like after the meeting, here's like the doc of the meeting, here's the next step, here's kind of like Async follow ups and stuff like that. And I found the writing let me accomplish all the same things without feeling like, oh, I need to become this amazing presenter.
- [23:57]
Susan Cain
Absolutely. And I would say in addition to that, I don't think that that means that you need to be limited only to writing because I mean, even just talking to you for 15 minutes or so, like, I, you know, I, I get a feeling of like, okay, I'm talking to somebody who's extremely authentic, extremely intelligent, extremely knowledgeable. And those are all incredibly powerful traits that modest introverts tend to discount.
- [24:31]
Lenny Rachitsky
That's a good, a good pushback and good reminder. Yeah, but I hear you. Okay, good, good. I want to go back to the tactics you started to share of how to be successful in business as an introvert. Because a lot of times companies aren't set up to be to for introverts to thrive. And so I'm curious what either you have done or what you've seen people do as introverts to set themselves up for more success in a business career.
- [25:01]
Susan Cain
Gosh, there's a lot we could talk about. I'll give you a few ideas. I mean, one is to find ways to make sure that other people know how much you know and how much you're contributing. Because I can't tell you how often company leaders will tell me that they, they lose valuable people because those people aren't good at self promotion. And then their contributions are undervalued or they feel undervalued so they end up leaving. And that is not good for anybody. Okay, so what can you do to do this? If you are somebody who is comfortable writing the way you are, you could start a company blog or some other way of disseminating your expertise through writing that will thereby gain attention. Another thing that you can do, if you're either comfortable already with public speaking or are planning to work acquire that particular skill. There's something in our culture where people who put themselves forward on a stage gain disproportionate respect. So if you can put yourself forward to do it, it, it could be like two minutes, it could be five minutes. You know, maybe you start a, a, a lecture series at, at your company where you bring in speakers and you're the one who's always introducing them. So you're just on stage for like the two minutes that you're introducing them, but you're the one who, who put the whole thing together. That's the kind of thing that can bring you a lot of prominence with kind of like disproportionate bang for the buck. And, and that kind of thing is also a great way of just practicing these skills and getting more comfortable with them. Okay, so that's one. A second one is to. Well, I'm thinking of a woman named Kathy Fish who until not long ago was the head of R and D at Procter and Gamble. And Kathy's a self described introvert. And she talked about how her superpower was. She was really good at connecting with people one on one and building deep connections in that way. So she wasn't the person who would like sweep charismatically into the room and everyone would know who she was. But it was like one by one by one by one, she was building up all these relationships that as she got more senior in her company, everyone knew who she was, they liked her, they trusted her, and that turned out to be incredibly powerful. Third idea. Quiet People often are misunderstood to be unambitious. So if you're an ambitious person, you have to make sure that your colleagues know about that. So I would look for a mentor and ask for, ask if you could have 10 minutes to ask their advice. And most people love to be asked for advice and are happy to give it and let that person know what your goals and hopes and ambitions actually are, you know, for one year, three years, five years from now, and ask for their advice on how you could get there. And they might come up with, you know, like one little strategy that will make a huge difference for you. Or they might start being the one to go to bat for you now that they know that you have the ambition to, to do X, Y, Z.
- [28:34]
Lenny Rachitsky
This is awesome. Okay, let me summarize some of the stuff you've shared. And this is Kind of like a list of things you as an introvert can do to be more successful in your career and probably in your life. And I'll include all the things you shared because it's all useful. So one is look for a role model that's really successful, that's an introvert to show you you can do this. You don't have to be this extroverted, charismatic CEO person. Two is show your value. Make sure people actually see the value you're providing because a lot of introverts don't. Three is actually lean into public speaking and work on that skill. To your point, it's looked at very highly. If you can do that. Okay. And your advice is just like do little bits. You don't need to give like a 30 minute all hands presentation. Just like a little bit of time on stage. It goes a long way. I'll, I'll give one recommendation. I had this person on the podcast and I found this public speaking course the most useful of all the things I've done. It's called Ultra speaking and it's very much based in doing it versus intellectualizing how to speak better. And it's made up of these very low risk games that you play with other people and you just talk without, without much support. And, and it's very like low risk but it's at the edge of scary and keeps kind of leveling up a little bit. Okay. And then. Okay, I'll keep going through list. Four is connect one on one with people. So instead of just like I need to be amazing in this meeting, it's like make sure you connect with everyone one on one in the company and they understand how awesome you are and you end up being more. Look more awesome when you're going one on one with people as an introvert. And then five is kind of make it is the advice here around ambition. It's like introverts are ambitious but they may not understand how to achieve this ambition. So it's less like make it clear you're ambitious more so come up with a plan to achieve this ambition by getting advice from someone. Is that the advice?
- [30:23]
Susan Cain
Yeah. And first of all, I'm amazed that you could do that. I don't know how you pulled that off just now.
- [30:29]
Lenny Rachitsky
Quick notes.
- [30:30]
Susan Cain
And I, I would add to it to make sure to kind of lean into your strengths. And I, I was just thinking about your case of like when I said that I look at your newsletter and I, I was pretty sure you were an introvert. It, it wasn't because oh, this is a person who's writing for a living. That that piece actually hadn't really occurred to me. It was because you're so obviously someone who goes really deeply and really thoroughly into a subject of passion. And then, you know, it's almost like you're. It's almost like a little hero's journey. You're. You're like going into the forest of your passion and then you're bringing the treasures for the rest of us to enjoy. And this is something that introverts do very naturally. Like, we, we tend to have one or two or three passions in our lives and one or two or three people in our lives who are very devoted to you. And we lavish everything in the direction of those passions and those people. And that is an incredible superpower. And so very often, like, if you look at. At introverts who have become great leaders in a broad variety of fields, they're usually, they're not the kind of people who, when they were a kid, everybody was like, that child is a natural leader. Like, they're not that person. They're usually people who have these incredibly deep passions. And if you have those, you end up acquiring a lot of expertise and building a network of people who have those same passions and inspiring a lot of trust from people who care about the same stuff that you do. And that's a real superpower.
- [32:09]
Lenny Rachitsky
The way you describe it makes me want to just hire a company of introverts. They go, they spend all this time finding treasures for you and bring them back quietly and very.
- [32:18]
Susan Cain
That's funny. But I actually, I'm glad you said that because what I really do think, and the research bears this out too, the best performing teams and companies really are a mix of both. Like, we so desperately need both types. And introverts and extroverts tend to really enjoy each other's company because we complement each other so well. And it's very easy to admire strengths and traits that we don't have ourselves. So there's a kind of mutual admiration that goes on as well.
- [32:47]
Lenny Rachitsky
Speaking of, that reminds me of. I don't know if this was in your book or a different book. There's some data that shows salespeople that are more introverted or actually more successful. Does that ring a bell?
- [32:56]
Susan Cain
I think that the most recent study I've seen shows the most successful salespeople are ambiverts because they're like, extroverted enough to close the deal, they're introverted enough to do the listening that good salesmanship usually requires. But having said that, you could be successful any which way and in quiet. My book, I. I profiled a guy who was like, I remember the exact detail, but something like the leading salesperson of the year of Cutco knives. And he talked about how he would just go and do like these deep listening sessions with his customers and really figure out what they needed. And they trusted him because he was authentically, curiously listening to them. So yeah, that's. Which is to say there's whatever strength you have, you know, you figure out.
- [33:50]
Lenny Rachitsky
How to maximize it, that resonates with product work. A lot of people, you know, a lot of part of the job of a product leader is to figure out what to build. And a lot of that is talking to users, research and things like that, and actually listening. And so it's interesting how similar that sales anecdote is to being a great product person. Something that this brings up for me is the importance of saying no to things as an introvert that are not things that bring you energy and will distract you from this sort of thing. And I know Tim Ferriss is writing this new book called the no Book. I was listening to your interview with him. That's why I had his in my mind. But I guess is there anything you've learned about just. Or any tactics you learn about saying no to things that one will de. Energize you and to just allow you to go deep on stuff that you want to go deep on?
- [34:38]
Susan Cain
Well, I mean, you might have heard the following advice before. When I first heard it, it came as a revelation to me. But it's when someone asks you to do something that is like three or four or five months away, there's a tendency to say yes to that because it feels so safely in the distance. So before you say yes, you should ask yourself how you'd feel if you had to do that thing tomorrow or next week. And that's, that's the real test, but also a more broad level. I. Okay. I love the psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihaly, late psychologist. He did all these studies on creativity and wrote a book about it. And at the beginning of this book he talks about how he approached all these deeply, famously creative people who he wanted to study. And he said that he got back answers from some of them saying your study sounds interesting, but if I said yes to these kinds of things, I wouldn't do my creat. I wouldn't be able to do the creative work that I did. Yeah. And that like leapt out at me and I think about it all the time now when I regretfully say no to this. And that.
- [35:52]
Lenny Rachitsky
That reminds me of something that I often think about. Naval has this, basically the same advice. He has this insight that you start doing something really well, you become successful with it. You start getting invited to parties and events and talks and collabs. You start doing that, you no longer have the time to do that thing that made you successful. Well, and that all falls apart. And the trick is, don't fall for that and keep doing the work that you're doing.
- [36:22]
Susan Cain
I know, it's really tricky. It's very tricky because the thing is, when you do go to those kinds of events, you actually usually do meet incredible people who you're really happy to know. I mean, in my experience. And like, some of the people I've met at those kinds of events over the years have become my best friends. So I just try to think of it really strategically. Like, I'll. I just pick, you know, a few of those things that I say yes to, and then I say no to all the others. But. But I. But I don't like to say no to all of them because I do feel like there's something meaningful that happens at every single one.
- [37:00]
Lenny Rachitsky
I'm more extreme than you. I actually created a policy with myself. No events, no talks, no other podcast. Just like the default is no. And once in a while I break the rule. But that's what I find is that is what I need because otherwise I'm just like, oh, that'll be fun. Let's go to this dinner thing.
- [37:16]
Susan Cain
Wait, wait, wait. This is fascinating. So, like, okay, you're saying how. How often do you break the no rule?
- [37:22]
Lenny Rachitsky
Pretty rarely. If it's like a work thing, you know, if it's like friends, like meeting with baby or friend or something like that. But yeah, it's pretty rare. I try really hard because. Partly because I get invited to a bunch of random BC stuff and talk, talk and podcast things. So, yeah, I'd say like. Like, maybe 5% of the time, I break it.
- [37:38]
Susan Cain
Interesting. Okay, yeah, no, I understand. And I. I actually do. I still do. I used to do a ton of speaking for companies and schools and so on, and I still do do some of that, but I have consciously limited that so that I can focus on other projects instead.
- [37:57]
Lenny Rachitsky
I find having a policy where I could just tell people I have this policy that I just invented in myself is a really good way of saying no.
- [38:05]
Susan Cain
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've gotten past the point of feeling guilty about the.
- [38:13]
Lenny Rachitsky
No.
- [38:13]
Susan Cain
Most of the time. Most of the time, yeah. Because yeah, life really is just too busy and especially if you're a parent the way you are. There's that too.
- [38:24]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah. I have this post where I shared all my tricks for saying no that willing to. There's a bunch of templates you can use and I'm excited to see those booked in Fair start writing because I imagine he has to say no a lot.
- [38:33]
Susan Cain
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [38:35]
Lenny Rachitsky
One other thought along these lines is also an EVOL lesson and it's interesting how much these insights stick in my head and make it make like, like change the way I operate. His other piece of advice is around networking because what you're talking about a little bit is like there's actually power in meeting people and networking essentially. And his advice is instead of networking, do things that are valuable and people will come to you and want to meet you versus you trying to meet them. And I found this to be absolutely true.
- [39:05]
Susan Cain
I find it to be so true. Also, um, and also even just for attending networking events, like if you've done something valuable, those events are much easier because people want to talk to you about whatever their thing is and you want to talk to them about their thing and. And then all the other things that you didn't even know about each other. But I don't know. My other mode or MO for networking types of events is I feel like if I meet one or two or three people at one of those events who I truly, truly like, truly want to stay in touch with, truly want to be helpful to, I consider it a success and then I feel like I can go home or, you know, spend a lot of time in the hotel room after that. Whereas I have friends, I see it like sometimes I'll go to one of these events and I have friends who like make a point of meeting every single person who's there and then we'll be talking a few months later and they'll mention such and such person. They'll like, yeah, don't you remember? They were at that event And I have no idea who they're talking about. And so like, yes, it would be probably like a more maximum value approach to meet every single person as long as you're there. But I don't believe that to be true if you're not wired that way. And I think the power of over a lifetime of just trying to have from every situation in life like one or two people where the connections are true and deep. Over a lifetime, you have a network that you really love.
- [40:44]
Lenny Rachitsky
All right, shoot. I. Could I go to more vans, I guess.
- [40:47]
Susan Cain
No, no, no, I. Oh, my gosh, I hope I'm not making it sound that way, because the truth is, I go to, you know, so few.
- [40:54]
Lenny Rachitsky
Very few. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by the Fundrise Flagship Fund. Full disclosure. Real estate investing is boring. Prediction markets are exciting. Meme coins are a thrill ride. Even the stock market can swing wildly on a headline. Hello, deep seek. But with real estate investing, there's no drama or adrenaline or excuses to refresh your portfolio every few minutes. Just bland and boring stuff like diversification and dividends. So you won't be surprised to learn that the Funrise Flagship Real Estate Fund is a complete snooze fest. The fund holds $1.1 billion worth of institutional caliber real estate managed by a team of pros focused on steadily growing your net worth for decades to come. See? Boring. That's the point. You can start investing in minutes and with as little as $10 by visiting fundrise.comLenny Carefully consider consider the investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses of the Fundrise Flagship fund before investing. Find this information and more in the fund's perspectives@fundrise.com flagship. This is a paid ad. I want to. I want to come back to tactics for introverts to be more successful. One common, I think, challenge introverts have is in big meetings with loud voices, having their ideas heard and even, like, heard and then actually, like, acted on. Is there anything you've learned in those situations or tactics you've seen people implement that make them more successful? Successful in these situations?
- [42:24]
Susan Cain
Yeah. So one very helpful tactic is to prepare in advance for a meeting a couple of points you might want to make or questions you might want to raise. Don't assume you have to be spontaneous the way other people appear to be. If you're more of a preparer, you should prepare. And then also to give yourself a push to speak up early in the meeting. Both because ideas that get advanced early tend psychologically to be anchoring ideas that people pay more attention to, but also for you. You'll start to feel more like you're part of things. You're more at the center of things. People will be directing their eye contact towards you if you speak up early. And that becomes a kind of virtuous cycle. So that's one thing. Another is to realize that, yes, humans respond to the voice that's loudest and deepest and all that stuff. But as humans, we. We also respond in an unconscious kind of way to others. Who are speaking from a deep sense of conviction, like, from a sense of truly believing what they're saying. And that is a muscle that you can strengthen. So I would say even when you're not at the meeting, you know, get. Get into the habit of thinking, am I speaking from here? Am I speaking from a deep place? And I'm not talking about voice right now. I. I mean, like, mentally, like, I. When. When I say that I love this movie, do I really believe I love this movie? And people will know it if you're coming from that place. So that you don't actually have to be the loudest person in the room in order for people to pay attention.
- [44:11]
Lenny Rachitsky
I just did a short meditation retreat, and somebody there had this really interesting way of doing exactly what you're describing where he visualizes this. This, like, lightning cable going from his. Instead of unplugging it from his brain and plugging into his heart and listening to that into your. Into where you're. What you're saying.
- [44:32]
Susan Cain
Yeah, it's just funny how that works. I think one of the main hacks to understand about how we humans relate to each other is how much we are picking up unconsciously a thousand different cues that we're sending out without even knowing that we are. And that's why speaking from that place makes such a difference. And so, yes, it can be helpful to think about your tone of voice and all that kind of. And your gestures and all of that kind of stuff. But I would start with what's actually there, like the substance.
- [45:09]
Lenny Rachitsky
And again, this is a good example of why introverts are so valuable. I feel like it's probably easier to do that, to be kind of talking from your heart and be authentic. This tip you shared of speaking early I think is really interesting. It connects to. This is going to sound crazy and weird. Maybe there's this whole pickup artist world of just like. I forget what the book was called where they wrote about mystery and this whole, like, the art of picking up women. And one of the tricks that they share with Guy and I did not do this. This is just an interesting story is if you're trying to, like, talk to someone in a bar, you should talk to them in the first five seconds of you seeing them and being thinking you should talk to them. Because once you keep thinking about it too much, you'll never do it. It gets super scary and it only gets scarier. And I think that's true in meetings. You just sit there and keep ruminating, oh, my God, am I going to Say something. And the more you do it early, the easier it all is.
- [46:04]
Susan Cain
Oh, my gosh. It's so, so, so true. And it's so funny to apply it to that setting, but it makes total sense. You're actually. You reminded me of how I first discovered this technique. You know, it dates all the way back to. I used to be a lawyer, strangely, like many years ago. And in law school, the way the classes were conducted, it was like you'd be sitting in this gigantic amphitheater of people, and the professor would just call on you cold and you had to answer all the questions. Yeah, exactly. Oh, my God. And so my strategy to avoid that, which I did from, like, the first day, was I would be one of the first people to raise my hands when they would ask for volunteers. And I figured, okay, if I've volunteered, there's 150 other people sitting here. They're going to call on those people. They're not going to call on me who just volunteered. So that was my strategy. And not only did it work in that way, but then I started to realize, especially if you're one of the first people who's ever spoken like. The professor kept referring back to things I had said, not because it was the smartest comment that had been made all year long, but just because it was one of the first ones. And so it sticks in the mind. So it's just a one of those phenomena of human relations.
- [47:22]
Lenny Rachitsky
And you also probably just like, you're participating more and you end up being more successful in the class and get better grades.
- [47:27]
Susan Cain
Yeah. So virtuous cycle again, man, I love it.
- [47:32]
Lenny Rachitsky
Okay, what about from the perspective of a manager or founder that has introverts working in the company? What advice can you share to make the most of these folks that you probably might be not noticing or not paying attention to?
- [47:44]
Susan Cain
Now, first of all, I would think about how you're running your meetings. So there's a statistic from the Kellogg school that in your typical meeting, you have three people doing 70% of the talking. But it's your company, and you want to make sure that you're actually hearing from everyone because you want to hear the best ideas. So I would do things like, you know, techniques like go around the room and make sure you're hearing from everybody. Or if you have a specific person who you know to be thoughtful and reticent, you might say to that person before the meeting, you know, hey, Bob, I know that you have a lot of great thoughts about such and such topic. Can I look to you to talk about that during the meeting. And now Bob is much more likely to like step up and talk about it. But also for many introverts, we like to be able to process our thoughts before we articulate them. So you've now given Bob advanced notice and he has more time to do the processing before speaking. Another technique you could use is.
- [48:54]
Lenny Rachitsky
Like.
- [48:54]
Susan Cain
A kind of brainwriting where you let's say everybody has to offer their thoughts on how to solve a problem, have people write their ideas out on post its and then you collect all the post its and then you present them and now all the ideas are out there without anyone having had to jockey for time or space. It's just the ideas on their own. Your introverts are going to appreciate the following thing more, but it will benefit everybody to make sure that you're giving everybody space to put their head down and work in a state of flow without being interrupted. Like that's huge for human productivity. But the introverts need it especially. So if you can create times of the day, depending on your workflow, where there are no meetings or whatever, or people can work from home on such and such a day or time, that can go a long way.
- [49:50]
Lenny Rachitsky
Oh man, that super resonates. What I did when I had a regular job is I. Well, first of all, we had no meeting Wednesdays which was like the day everyone got all the work done.
- [49:59]
Susan Cain
Yeah.
- [50:00]
Lenny Rachitsky
And then the other thing that I worked and I have this post I'll link to of productivity tricks and one of them is around deep work. And I created this block on Wednesdays and Friday mornings for two hours that it was just work deep work time. And I labeled it do not book time over this or I will slap you. And it worked and I did not get in trouble. Be careful.
- [50:21]
Susan Cain
Yeah. And I'm sure people appreciated the humor of it too.
- [50:23]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [50:25]
Susan Cain
That's genius.
- [50:25]
Lenny Rachitsky
HR had never said anything. Okay, so just to reflect back the tips you shared, which are awesome is one is just like actually asks everyone in the meeting just like, hey, do you have anything you want to add? Make sure everyone has a chance at least if they don't want to volunteer. Two is give people like, if someone you think is going to have good ideas, just tell them ahead of time, Hey, I just want to make sure you share this idea or you have a chance to, to say something. Please say something in the meeting. Three is give people a chance to kind of write ahead of time or in the meeting just like create space for people just to write their Ideas down. Not have to like jockey for raising their hand and sharing something and then everyone hands in their. Their work and then force create deep work time. Give people a chance to get into flow. Awesome. Okay, I'm gonna go in a totally different direction. I know you're. I don't know if it was your second book or third book. It was for kids. Kids that are introverts. I'm. I have a kid, he's 1 1/2 ish. It's pretty clear to me he's an introvert. He likes. We just, we went to a birthday party. He just like went into the other room and played with the toys. Yeah, he often just wants to like observe for a while and then he starts to feel comfortable.
- [51:35]
Susan Cain
Yep.
- [51:36]
Lenny Rachitsky
Do you have any advice for raising an introverted kid?
- [51:39]
Susan Cain
Yeah, I mean we could talk about this for the whole entire time very easily.
- [51:43]
Lenny Rachitsky
Okay. This will be the next podcast. Yeah, but what are some. What are some thoughts?
- [51:46]
Susan Cain
Yeah, but I'll just give you like a few top line thoughts. The first thing I always say is to understand that introverted and or shy children. Have we taken a second to distinguish between introversion and shyness? No, let's not know if we have. Okay. And this is, this applies to adults as well as kids. But introversion is more about just like a preference to be in less overstimulating environments. You know, more mellow environments, like less sound, less noise, fewer people, just fewer stimuli coming at you. And shyness is more about the fear of social judgment. So it's like a. It's a kind of over exaggerated response to any situation where you're being judged. Could be new people at a party, could be the public speaking, could be an interview. And it's. You might have situation A, evaluative situation A, that doesn't bother you? And evaluative situation B, that really does. Because people are complicated. So anyway, for children, whether they're shy, I. E. Fearful of judgment, or whether they're introverted, I. E. I prefer to play in a mellower way. The key for both of those kids is to understand that they will tend to have a longer Runway that they travel down before they take off and fly. And this is, this applies to a gazillion parenting situations. So like when it comes time to introduce your child to school, it is very likely, from what you've just described to me, you said it's a boy, right?
- [53:33]
Lenny Rachitsky
Boy.
- [53:33]
Susan Cain
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's very likely that he is going to be a little bit slow to warm up at the Beginning. And it might be that all the other kids get dropped off at the door of the school, but your child might really want you to walk him all the way down the stairs to his classroom. And that's okay. It's not okay for it to stay that way forever. But remember when we were talking about desensitization with public speaking, where you do things step by step by step? So you might, like, walk him to the classroom a few times and then say, okay, we're gonna do a game, and tomorrow I'm gonna walk you almost all the way. But the last two steps you're gonna do by yourself. And then you celebrate it with whatever little treatment. And then the next day, maybe it's not two steps, maybe it's five steps. And, like, little by little by little, you are moving away and he's going down that Runway. And eventually he will get to the point where he doesn't even remember that he needed you to walk him into school. And this is going to happen again and again when he's learning to swim. A lot of quieter children are uncomfortable with the water at the beginning. And you might feel, as a parent, like, what did I do wrong? Because I see all these other kids who are just jumping in the water, and. And my kid's not doing that. So first of all, give yourself a break, because this is natural. And second, you know, you apply the same technique. You maybe get to the pool on a day when there aren't a lot of people around, so it's not overstimulating. Quiet. And. And maybe the goal for that day is you're asking your child, do you think you can put your big toe in the water? And he puts his big toe in, and yay, yay, yay. We're celebrating. And then you, little by little, go from there. And again, eventually you will not be able to tell the difference between that kid and the one who jumped in right away. Longer Runway. It's okay. Okay. So that was my first piece of advice. My second is self confidence comes from mastery and not the other way around. So we tend to think, you know, we live in a culture that's, like, really big on self confidence. So we see self confidence as. As the key to everything else. But in fact, if you master a skill, you become self confident as a result of that mastery. And this is true for all children. It's especially true for quieter children. You know, introduce them to a lot of activities and figure out which are the ones they really, truly love and gravitate to and excel in. And those will pay off great dividends in their. Not just in their mastery, but in their self confidence. The third thing I would say is when they're feeling shy or uncomfortable, just talk about it openly in a light way. It's not a big deal. Share your own experiences. You know, let's say a child's afraid to go to a birthday party. You know, you could say, oh yeah, I used to feel that way too. It's really common. Here's what I would do when I felt that way. And you know what? I still feel that way sometimes. And you could say, so what I like to do is I like to get to the party early before everybody else is there, because then I feel more comfortable. So why don't we get there early today?
- [57:02]
Lenny Rachitsky
I do actually love to do that.
- [57:04]
Susan Cain
Well, there you go. Yeah, and a lot of kids do best when, when they're one of the first people to arrive because then they feel like it's not overwhelming and they own the space. But the key is that you're, you're showing them that you understand and are cool with who they are and it just becomes no big deal. As opposed to, you know, many kids quickly absorb from their society the idea that there's something wrong with their shyness. So you're trying to undo that sense of shame and stigma and make it no big deal.
- [57:36]
Lenny Rachitsky
That is really helpful. I forgot to ask you this question at the beginning, but I, I'm really curious, what percentage of people are introverts? Whatever you label that along the spectrum.
- [57:46]
Susan Cain
I've seen different studies. Some say it's 30%, some say it's 50%. It's always higher than you think, but it's basically one out of every two or three people. So it's a lot.
- [57:58]
Lenny Rachitsky
So it feels like one of the core pieces of advice you're sharing is if you're an introvert, you don't need to become an extrovert. It's become more of who you are. And you can be really successful in that.
- [58:11]
Susan Cain
Yeah, I'm just going to add to that while also making sure that you acquire the skills that you need. Like, I'm not saying never step outside your comfort zone or, you know, don't acquire those skills if they're crucial to what you're doing, like public speaking, the way we were talking about. But bottom line, the goal is to use those skills to be who you are.
- [58:33]
Lenny Rachitsky
And that was an awesome point. So it's not just like, okay, I don't need to be a good. I don't need to go out of my comfort zone ever. I'm going to be the amazing CEO. Just being exactly. Your advice is. No, you actually do need to build some stuff and build some of these skills.
- [58:46]
Susan Cain
Though I do want to say, on the other hand, if the job you have taken on or the career you've taken on is one that requires you to wake up every morning feeling dread because you're going to be so far out of your comfort zone for so much of the day and so much of the week, is it really worth it in that case? I mean, you basically want a life where you're waking up, looking forward to what you're doing. Yes. With. With obstacles along the way, but more or less you should feel like you're in the right zone.
- [59:19]
Lenny Rachitsky
So the advice there is find work that connects with your introvertedness as much.
- [59:23]
Susan Cain
As with your temperament.
- [59:24]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah, temperament, same.
- [59:25]
Susan Cain
Same for extroverts. You know, I've heard from extroverts who will say, you know, I work in this company of, like, very introverted engineers and everybody's super quiet and heads down and I'm going crazy. So that's not right for you either.
- [59:38]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah. And it's not like you can't. Like, what this makes me think about is we did a test of all the PMs that are being there, like a personality test. And it's interesting how it was all over the map and there wasn't, like, you need to be this, like, energetic, charismatic person. You could be just a thoughtful, quieter person. And those people are just as successful.
- [59:58]
Susan Cain
Absolutely.
- [59:59]
Lenny Rachitsky
A big part of your advice is figure out who you are and become more. More of that. Like, connect to your introvertedness and, and, and you can be very successful there. Is there any advice just like, how. What to do to do that, to, like, what should you be looking at? Which parts of you should. You should be like, okay, this is where I'm strong and I should be leaning into. And this is how I can become the best, most successful people in spite of my introvertedness.
- [60:23]
Susan Cain
I mean, I might start by just asking, like, what do you. What do you like to do? How do you like to spend your time? What are you most interested in? Again, that question of if you had no social or professional obligations, how would you be spending your time? Basically, you just need a really honest conversation with yourself of what you like to do.
- [60:46]
Lenny Rachitsky
I love that it comes back to your kind of heuristics at the beginning of just, if you had a free weekend, how would you spend that weekend?
- [60:52]
Susan Cain
Yeah.
- [60:53]
Lenny Rachitsky
And then would you do like a pie chart of the activities to give you, like, here's how I would want to generally spend my time. Like 20% social, 40% on my own. Is that, is that like one way to think about it?
- [61:05]
Susan Cain
You know, that's funny because, like, you were mentioning Tim Ferriss before, and I remember when I was talking to him on his podcast, like, he kept asking me like, okay, do you have a system for this and a system for that? And he's like, you know, I'm not a systems person the way you are. And like, I think his systems are super helpful. I just, I just tend to have a different approach, like a more just intuition based approach or something. Just like, what, what feels right and what feels wrong. And if you ask yourself that simple question, I think, I think, you know.
- [61:41]
Lenny Rachitsky
That'S actually like, that alone isn't it? Connects to something I often try to do. Just asking yourself, does this feel right or does this feel wrong? Some advice I recently heard along these lines. Another way to ask this question is, what is my body saying? Yes, I was invited to do this talk and I was just like, I guess it could be good for the newsletter if I do this thing. And like, I actually used your piece of it. The, the trick you used a. If this were tomorrow, would I be excited? I was like, no, definitely not. And then she actually is like, here's another trick I use. Because I told her that that's how I decided not to do it. She's like, yeah, just like, what is my body saying? And I was like, I, no, definitely not. My body does not like. The idea of it not happening made me feel really relieved.
- [62:24]
Susan Cain
Yeah, that's. That that tells you so much. And I guess what I would add to that is also you need to distinguish between like, the goal and what it would take to get to the goal. Okay, so I'm thinking of a young woman who I talked to after she gave a successful TED talk and had a successful book. And she was trying to figure out, like, what the next step should be on the, on the coattails of these successes. And what she said in the course of our conversation is like, she knew that she could build a whole company around, around her ideas that were now out in the world. But she knew from experience that she had had working at other companies that she wouldn't actually be happy having to like, wake up and run a team every day. And so she knew whatever I do, it's not going to be based on like, team management. Like that that needs to not be part of the picture. And I thought that was a really useful way to look at it because it wasn't. I think she would have loved to actually have the company and, you know, put products out into the world that the company would have made, but she wouldn't have enjoyed her life to get to that goal. And so that question of do I want to wake up in the morning doing what it takes to reach that goal is a really big one.
- [63:51]
Lenny Rachitsky
There's two things that brings up for me. One is I had the co founder of hubbispot on the podcast, which is like a gabillion dollar business at this point. And he had a conversation with his co founder early on and he told him, I never want to manage anybody. And even up to today he has never managed any. There's nobody under him at the company and he's still the co founder, still operating on his own.
- [64:12]
Susan Cain
Wow. That's possible that he could pull that off.
- [64:15]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah, he's a fascinating guy. We're gonna link to that episode. It's so interesting. The other is I made a role for myself with this new life along those lines that you just shared, which is I never wanna have full time employees.
- [64:26]
Susan Cain
Yes, me too.
- [64:28]
Lenny Rachitsky
Okay.
- [64:28]
Susan Cain
I did the exact same thing with my substack. No, none.
- [64:31]
Lenny Rachitsky
Great.
- [64:32]
Susan Cain
Yeah.
- [64:33]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah.
- [64:33]
Susan Cain
And I do have different people who I work with.
- [64:35]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah, same.
- [64:36]
Susan Cain
And including like my colleague Renee and I have been working together for like 10, 11, 12 years, amazingly. But it's like a very loose type of working structure and that's what works for us.
- [64:48]
Lenny Rachitsky
That's exactly how I operate. And it. And it's like the major downside is people sometimes leave because they're not full time and there's like, oh, here's a cool full time role that they found. But I find people want this. They like, they prefer to be a part time flexible thing. Not this is their life and this is all they're doing.
- [65:04]
Susan Cain
I think a lot of people like that too.
- [65:06]
Lenny Rachitsky
It's such a. But like there's always this temptation, okay, what if one person and then they just deal so much for me, I think it, it also limits just how much work you take on, which is really healthy.
- [65:15]
Susan Cain
It's so funny because when I started my substack I talked to one of my now colleagues and I remember saying to him, you know, if I. If in a few months I wake up and my day consists of going to meetings, then I'm going to know the whole thing. Whether I went down the wrong path and this was a mistake. So we have to build it in a way where it's not about that at all.
- [65:39]
Lenny Rachitsky
Along those lines, I have a rule of no meetings before 3pm to reduce the number of meetings I have. Except for podcast episodes that we do sometimes in the mornings and it helps me there. Yeah. Funny enough, I. When I started the newsletter and it started doing well, I was like, okay, this is awesome. What a life. Just write a newsletter once a week and make a living inside this rule. I'll never do a podcast, I'll never do a course, I'll never do a conference, I'll never do a book. And I've actually crumbled and done almost all those things. The only thing left is a book.
- [66:07]
Susan Cain
That's really funny. And so those things that you ended up doing.
- [66:11]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah.
- [66:12]
Susan Cain
Have you enjoyed them or. Or were your initial instincts correct?
- [66:16]
Lenny Rachitsky
The podcast, I. I'm very happy I did it. It's extremely cool to have the dynamic of the newsletter and the podcast, energy wise. It is. It takes like, energy. I have to like pull in the extrovertedness side of me to.
- [66:31]
Susan Cain
I get it.
- [66:32]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah. Versus, like I'm just gonna sit in the cafe and work on the newsletter. So, yeah, it's better. It's mostly great. But I do have to like. I have to like get up to do it, you know, like hype myself up into it.
- [66:43]
Susan Cain
I so, so understand.
- [66:46]
Lenny Rachitsky
And then the course, I decided not to do it. It was like too much of that. So I stopped doing that. The conference was awesome. Probably will do it again. And the book still have resisted the book.
- [66:55]
Susan Cain
Wouldn't the book be more along the lines of what you like doing? Like you can sit in your cafe.
- [67:00]
Lenny Rachitsky
You think. You think the problem is it just would be too much work. It's just like the load of.
- [67:04]
Susan Cain
As you know, I do.
- [67:07]
Lenny Rachitsky
I think it took you seven years to write your first book is what I read.
- [67:10]
Susan Cain
Oh, yeah. And then. Yeah. And then. Well, my second book was the one for kids. That didn't take quite as long. But then my third book, Bittersweet, was the same thing. I took like seven years. And I just sent in a book proposal to my agent like two days ago for another book which will undoubtedly take five or six or seven years. And I have wondered how I'm going to do it together with the substack, but I don't know. Yeah, I feel very impassioned about both, so I think it's fine.
- [67:35]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah, you have to really want it. Part of the reason I don't want to do a book is all the talks I'd have to do to promote it after.
- [67:43]
Susan Cain
Oh, I so understand. I think that's part of the reason I take as long as I do to write them, because I'm, like, dreading the promotional period, so I'm just putting it off.
- [67:52]
Lenny Rachitsky
Oh, man. Well, I'm. Yeah, I'm impressed you overcome that.
- [67:57]
Susan Cain
I mean, for me, my. My dream always was to be a writer, so that was, like the primary. Primary thing. So I'll overcome anything for that dream.
- [68:07]
Lenny Rachitsky
I get that. Okay. Susan, we've covered everything I've wanted to cover. Is there anything else that you think might be helpful to leave listeners with that, especially introverts that are trying to be successful feel better about their. Their way of the world.
- [68:26]
Susan Cain
There is.
- [68:29]
Lenny Rachitsky
An.
- [68:29]
Susan Cain
A phrase, an aphorism, a saying from Gandhi, who said. Who is very shy and very introverted, by the way, like, extremely. His autobiography. Very fascinating. He talks a lot about this. He was such a shy kid. He would run home from school after class because he didn't want to have to talk to anybody. He was really like that his whole life. He was just. He was one of these people I was talking about who, you know, had a very deep conviction and then attracted other people who shared that deep conviction. And so he said in a gentle way, you can shake the world. And I deeply believe this to be true.
- [69:07]
Lenny Rachitsky
That's. That's an excellent role model to think about in that. Going back to your other exercise of Gandhi as an introvert. Did not know that. That's awesome, Susan. With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready?
- [69:21]
Susan Cain
I'm ready.
- [69:22]
Lenny Rachitsky
First question. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
- [69:29]
Susan Cain
So I was talking earlier about the psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. He famously wrote a book about flow. It's literally called Flow. And it's. And Flow is the state of mind you get into when you're, like, totally engaged in an activity and you're completely absorbed by it and you're feeling neither bored nor anxious. You're just in it. And the book just, like, describes all the research on this date and what it is. And it completely changed my life. So I recommend that one all the time. And also the Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell, who, you know, is just a great mythologist and completely fascinating.
- [70:12]
Lenny Rachitsky
And Hero's Journey.
- [70:15]
Susan Cain
Hero's Journey, yeah. And he talked about the need to participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world, which I really believe in, which.
- [70:24]
Lenny Rachitsky
I know your third Book was about.
- [70:26]
Susan Cain
Yeah, that's right. Bittersweet.
- [70:29]
Lenny Rachitsky
Bittersweet. Find it on Amazon or your local retailers. The Flow Book. Can you say his last name again? Because I think nobody actually knows how to pronounce it. And I love that you say it so comfortably.
- [70:40]
Susan Cain
It's a. Yeah. Because my agent taught me how. It's you. You go cheek. Like your cheek.
- [70:45]
Lenny Rachitsky
Oh, my God.
- [70:46]
Susan Cain
Sent me high. So that's more or less how you pronounce it.
- [70:49]
Lenny Rachitsky
Cheeks me high.
- [70:51]
Susan Cain
Oh, my God.
- [70:51]
Lenny Rachitsky
What a win for a tip right there. Okay, next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?
- [70:59]
Susan Cain
I never have anything recent, but so my husband and kids and I just watched the Sopranos recently. I had never seen it before, and we loved it. And I also just recently saw the talented Mr. Ripley, which I know it's really old, but so, so good.
- [71:18]
Lenny Rachitsky
Wow, I love how old these are.
- [71:20]
Susan Cain
I know. I know. But, like, I basically like anything that you see where there's just something dazzling happening in it. Like, Jude Law's performance In the talented Mr. Ripley is pure in dazzlement, if that's a word.
- [71:36]
Lenny Rachitsky
This connects to advice I often hear, which is don't read books that are either. Read books that are just like, very new or like 10 years or older. I think that's the advice. Like, don't read books that are sort of. Because you want to only read things that have been. That have survived and people continue to come back to quiet. I think is definitely an example of that.
- [71:53]
Susan Cain
Thank you. Yeah, I do think there's something about that. Like that. Yeah. If it survived that long, it's for a reason.
- [72:01]
Lenny Rachitsky
Yeah.
- [72:03]
Susan Cain
Okay. Can I say something that will not be lightning roundish?
- [72:06]
Lenny Rachitsky
Sure.
- [72:07]
Susan Cain
Okay. Because what you just made me think of is there's this organization or institute, it's called the Tugboat Institute, I think is the official name. And anyway, it's basically, it's for founders of companies who are not interested in. In starting their company and then making a quick exit three years later. These are people who are trying to build something evergreen and something built to last. And so this is an organization for the founders who have this mentality. And I've talked to the head of this organization, I'm actually going to be speaking there in June or July, and he told me that they have tons of introverts in this group of CEOs. Like, I do think there's something about that mentality of seeking the timeless and the evergreen that is one of those underappreciated Strengths.
- [73:04]
Lenny Rachitsky
That's awesome. That sounds like a sweet place to be.
- [73:07]
Susan Cain
Yeah.
- [73:08]
Lenny Rachitsky
Hopefully not too many extroverts get in there and they're just like, what the.
- [73:11]
Susan Cain
Hell is going on here?
- [73:12]
Lenny Rachitsky
I don't want to be here. Okay. I'm going to keep going with lightning round.
- [73:16]
Susan Cain
Yeah.
- [73:16]
Lenny Rachitsky
Let's see. Okay. Is there a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love? Whether it could be an app, could be something you bought physical, something laying around the house?
- [73:25]
Susan Cain
I will say the. The art of roasted vegetables.
- [73:31]
Lenny Rachitsky
Cool.
- [73:32]
Susan Cain
Yeah. I've started just roasting my vegetables with tons of spices of all kinds, and it's such a revelation.
- [73:40]
Lenny Rachitsky
And it's not a gadget. You just roast them in a cookie cooking chic sort of thing.
- [73:44]
Susan Cain
Yeah, I just, like, toss them with olive oil and maybe some lemon juice and almond slices or curry or whatever I feel like doing. And it's like candy. So good.
- [73:54]
Lenny Rachitsky
Interesting. So that. And this is just like, easy way to eat healthy and taste good.
- [73:59]
Susan Cain
Yep.
- [74:00]
Lenny Rachitsky
What a life. Chip, I. I just read this book, Good Energy. I don't know if you've heard of this. It's about what foods give you good energy and what foods are bad energy.
- [74:08]
Susan Cain
Interesting.
- [74:08]
Lenny Rachitsky
And it's based on metabolic health and blood sugar and which ones spike you and help you and you're eating good energy food. Yes. Takeaway. Okay, two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find really useful in work or in life? Maybe share with friends and family?
- [74:27]
Susan Cain
Yeah, I mean, I will give the one that was the dedication to and the inspiration for Bittersweet. This is a quote from Leonard Cohen, who said, there's a crack in everything. That's where the light gets in.
- [74:42]
Lenny Rachitsky
I love that. I want to make a big poster out of all these mottos someday.
- [74:47]
Susan Cain
Yeah. Yeah, you really should. You probably have amazing ones collected.
- [74:50]
Lenny Rachitsky
So many. Oh, man. Final question. You have a very active substack. I'm very impressed with how often you publish. It's very hard. Where can people find it? And just what should people know about the substack that you started?
- [75:04]
Susan Cain
Oh, well, it's called the quietlife.net so that's where you can find it. And it's basically a place for people who want to live in the realm of the quiet and thoughtful and sensitive and bittersweet. I've kind of been exploring that realm for 20 years, and this is a place to be with other people who are in that realm also. And so, you know, some of the time I'm posting things about tips along the lines of what we've been talking about for this podcast. And sometimes it's more, I don't know, just like sharing art and poetry and things. So, like, tomorrow I'm posting an exclusive excerpt from Sahil Bloom's new book, the Five Types of Wealth, about how much time do you have remaining with your loved ones and how are you spending that time? So it's, I would say it's like, dedicated to how to live a good life from the perspective of the quiet and the thoughtful and the sensitive.
- [76:11]
Lenny Rachitsky
Sounds like a wonderful place. Corridor of the Internet. How do people find it just so we can link to LinkedIn in the show notes, too?
- [76:19]
Susan Cain
Yeah. So the quiet life.net or I guess if you go to substack and just look up my name, you could probably find it there. But yeah, it's become a huge labor of love because it's a way, like, I'm able to write to people who have been reading my stuff for years, but now we have a dialogue and a community, and I think people really feel like having a place to go that is a very specific wavelength that you can't find elsewhere can be something special. And I know, I feel that as the. As the person writing into it.
- [76:57]
Lenny Rachitsky
Okay, final question then is, how can listeners be useful to you? I usually ask, how do people find you online? We just talked about that, so I'm skipping that question. How can listeners be useful to you?
- [77:06]
Susan Cain
I don't know. I guess I would say, you know, the. The substack that I'm doing is my. Is my baby and my labor of love. So if you want to partake of it, I would love to have you there.
- [77:17]
Lenny Rachitsky
Awesome. Susan, thank you so much for being here.
- [77:20]
Susan Cain
Thank you so much for having me.
- [77:22]
Lenny Rachitsky
Absolutely. My pleasure. So nice. Just. Introvert connection.
- [77:26]
Susan Cain
Yes, exactly.
- [77:28]
Lenny Rachitsky
Okay, bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show@lennyspodcast.com See you in the next episode.