Podcast Summary:

Les Clés – Russie-Ukraine, aux sources de la guerre (1/3) : au temps de l'URSS
Host: RTBF
Guest: Anna Colin-Lebedev (Sociologue, politologue, Maîtresse de conférences à Paris-Nanterre)
Date: February 15, 2026

Overview

This episode launches a three-part series exploring the historical roots of the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine. It focuses on the complex, intertwined histories of these two countries, from the age of empires through the Soviet era, with special emphasis on the shaping of Ukrainian national identity, key traumas such as the Holodomor, and the impact of World War II on the collective memories in both nations. The discussion with Anna Colin-Lebedev provides valuable context for understanding today's war through the lens of history and historiography.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Geopolitical and Historical Background (01:01–05:16)

• Geographical comparisons: Russia as the world's largest country (~17 million km², 11 time zones); Ukraine as a significant but far smaller state (600,000 km²), strategically located between Europe and Russia, with fertile lands and access to the Black Sea.
• Historical crossroads: Ukraine's position has long made it a point of passage and a battleground for empires: Russian, Austro-Hungarian, Polish-Lithuanian.
• Shared yet separate histories:
  • Anna Colin-Lebedev explains that only part of current Ukraine historically fell under Russian control; the west had distinct influences (Austro-Hungarian and Polish-Lithuanian) (03:00).

« Ce qui fait le territoire de la Russie contemporaine et ce qui fait le territoire de l’Ukraine contemporaine sont des territoires contigus dont l’histoire est bien évidemment commune à bien des égards. » (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [03:00])

• Fluid identities:
  • National identities in both Russia and Ukraine are historically constructed, becoming more defined only in the 19th century as nation-states took shape.

« L’identité ne préexiste pas. Elle est construite en même temps qu’un État se met en place…» (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [05:32])

2. Birth of Modern National Identities & The Soviet Era (06:31–12:30)

• 1917: The Revolution:
  • The Russian Revolution marks a turning point. Ukraine declares independence in 1918—a key foundational moment for Ukrainian identity, even if short-lived.
  • The Bolsheviks soon integrate Ukraine as a Soviet republic; this historical episode is pivotal for both contemporary Ukrainian identity and Russian claims over Ukraine.

« Les Ukrainiens vont dater leur identité nationale et l’histoire de leur État précisément à ce moment-là. » (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [07:32])

• Soviet nationalities policy:
  • The USSR creates national republics with titular languages and identities, enforcing “identity engineering” (in Ukraine’s case, building on existing cultural bases).
  • Early Soviet policy paradoxically aids the consolidation of Ukrainian identity by allowing local language and elites a greater role—while also increasing central control.

« Ce qui est vraiment complètement paradoxal dans cette histoire soviétique, c’est qu’on a à la fois ce mouvement de création des nationalités, voire d’ingénierie des nationalités… » (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [09:40])

• Suppression and promotion of language:
  • Under the Russian Empire, use of the Ukrainian language is repressed.
  • In the 1920s USSR, Ukrainian is promoted in schools and administration—for ideological reasons.

3. The Holodomor: The Great Famine and National Trauma (12:30–20:43)

• Collectivization and repression:
  • Stalin’s collectivization policies (late 1920s–early 1930s) result in catastrophe for Ukraine, then the breadbasket of the USSR.
  • Mass expropriation, requisitioning of grain, and villages encircled by the Red Army cause a famine—now called the Holodomor—resulting in millions of deaths.
  • The event is now widely considered in Ukraine as a genocide, a point hotly contested by Russian historians who argue it was part of a broader Stalinist repression.

« On estime aujourd’hui… que 4 millions de personnes mortes dans cette famine dans une année où les récoltes sont parfaites… C’est le prix que l’Ukraine a payé… » (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [14:09])

• Lasting collective memory
  • The Holodomor is central to Ukraine’s national narrative and commemorated every November.
  • Since 2014 and especially after 2022, Ukrainians increasingly interpret Russian actions as part of a long history of attempts to erase Ukrainian identity.

« L’interprétation historique a été extrêmement radicalisée par la guerre…» (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [19:09])

4. World War II and Complicated Memories (20:43–30:47)

• Changing borders
  • Prior to WWII, "Soviet Ukraine" covers only part of today’s territory; western areas (Galicia, Bukovina) are still Polish and have their own national movements.
• Occupation and double repression
  • The Nazi-Soviet pact divides Poland; the Red Army occupies western Ukraine in 1939, brutally repressing both Poles and Ukrainian nationalists.
  • As the war continues, some Ukrainian nationalists choose to collaborate with the Nazis, seeing Moscow as the main enemy—others resist both occupiers.
• Myth vs. complexity:
  • Russian historiography (and state discourse, especially under Putin) focuses on collaborationist Ukrainians, painting Ukraine as a nation of Nazi sympathizers.
  • In reality, about 4 million Ukrainians fought against the Nazis, while some 200,000 collaborated—a phenomenon comparable to other European countries.

« On estime qu’environ 200 000 Ukrainiens ont collaboré avec les nazis sous une forme explicite… mais que 4 millions d’Ukrainiens ont combattu les nazis. » (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [21:55])

• Contested figures and today’s tensions:
  • Figures such as Stepan Bandera, involved in nationalist and sometimes anti-Semitic movements, are divisive; their roles as both freedom fighters and Holocaust participants generate ongoing debate within Ukrainian society.
  • The war with Russia has shifted perspectives—debate is less open, and controversial nationalist figures are more likely to be rehabilitated as resistance heroes.

« La figure de Stepan Bandera, qui était une figure pas du tout consensuelle dans la société ukrainienne, devient de moins en moins discutée. » (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [30:13])

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On identity construction:
  « L’identité ne préexiste pas. Elle est construite en même temps qu’un État se met en place… » (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [05:32])
• On Holodomor and Russian-Ukrainian memory clash:
  « Les Ukrainiens… vont inscrire en fait ce qui leur arrive en 2014 et en 2022… dans une histoire tellement longue qu’elle va remonter à cette grande famine. » (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [19:09])
• On the WWII collaboration myth:
  « La proportion… de la collaboration en Ukraine se retrouve dans d’autres pays européens… On est sur les mêmes logiques d’État où l’antisémitisme est extrêmement présent… Il n’y a pas d’ambiguïté aujourd’hui en Ukraine sur cette dimension-là. » (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [27:51])
• On memory’s simplification in wartime:
  « Peut-être pas de radicalisation, mais disons une simplification de cette histoire qui est induite par la guerre elle-même. » (Anna Colin-Lebedev, [30:47])

Important Timestamps

• 00:01–01:01: Introduction, geographical context
• 03:00–06:31: Overlapping histories and construction of national identities
• 07:08–09:40: 1917 Revolution, Ukrainian independence and its significance
• 09:40–12:30: Soviet policy and paradox of language and identity in Ukraine
• 12:30–20:43: The Holodomor – causes, impact, memory and its politicization
• 20:43–21:55: WWII and shifting borders
• 21:55–29:44: Collaboration, resistance, and memory wars (WWII period)
• 29:44–30:47: Impact of the current war on history and national narratives

Conclusion

This densely-packed episode lays out the essential historical foundations for understanding the present Russia-Ukraine war. By examining the centuries-long contest for Ukrainian territory, the formation (and manipulation) of national identities, and conflicting memories of 20th-century trauma, the podcast equips listeners to better interpret contemporary narratives and political rhetoric. Part two promises to continue this exploration through the lens of Ukraine’s independence and the new frictions with Moscow.

Next episode preview:
Explores Ukraine’s independence in 1991 and the evolving relationship with Russia up to the present day, including the societal shift toward Europe.