Podcast Summary: Les Couilles sur la table – "Ce que le patriarcat fait à l’amour"

Host: Victoire Tuaillon | Guest: Carol Gilligan | Date: November 28, 2019

Overview

This episode of Les Couilles sur la table features an in-depth conversation between host Victoire Tuaillon and American feminist psychologist Carol Gilligan. The central theme explores how patriarchy shapes, constrains, and often wounds our capacity for love and relationships—both for men and women. Drawing on developmental psychology and her research with boys and girls from early childhood through adolescence, Gilligan explains how the traditional constructs of masculinity and femininity inflict a profound psychological cost, notably by requiring the sacrifice of authenticity and deep connection in favor of conforming to patriarchal norms.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Patriarchy’s Early Impact on Boys and Girls

• Developmental Vulnerability:
  Gilligan discusses a noted asymmetry in psychological development:

  • Boys display increased emotional volatility, attention issues, and behavioral problems between ages 4–7 ([02:00]).
  • Girls maintain relative resilience until adolescence, when depression and self-destructive behaviors spike ([03:36]).
  • "No one asks why boys are so vulnerable between 4 and 7, but everybody knows that suddenly girls are at a high risk in adolescence." – Carol Gilligan ([03:36])

• Initiation into Patriarchy:
  Both girls and boys resist, consciously or not, their initiation into patriarchal expectations:

  • Boys learn to suppress emotional intelligence and connection in favor of “posture” and pretense to conform to masculine norms ([05:00]).
  • Girls are pressured, especially in adolescence, into silence and pleasing behaviors to be "good" ([18:34]).

2. The Loss of Emotional Intimacy and Its Costs

• Masking Sensitivity:
  Young boys are particularly emotionally attuned, but soon feel pressured to hide sensitivity, equated with being “girly” or “gay” ([10:38]).

  • "In trying to prove they are one of the boys, they hide the very qualities that allow them to have the relationships they desire." – Carol Gilligan ([10:38])

• Adolescent Friendship Crisis:
  In adolescence, boys initially value deep friendships but later distance themselves from emotional closeness to maintain masculine credibility ([12:38]–[15:17]).

  • By graduation from high school, “three quarters of boys no longer have close friends" ([15:16]).
  • Example: Adam’s heartbreaking story of ending a meaningful friendship with Ali to avoid being seen as gay ([15:27]–[17:13]).

• Women’s Sacrifice:
  Women and girls sacrifice honest self-expression for acceptance and relationships, resulting in inauthentic connections ([18:34]).

  • "The price for relationships as a woman: silence your voice." ([18:46])
  • This parallels boys' sacrifice of emotional connection for “masculinity.”

3. Why Does Patriarchy Persist?

• Psychological Defense Against Loss:
  The system, while costly, offers a defense against vulnerability—especially the risks of love and loss ([22:49]–[23:18]).

  • "Abandoning what we most want—love—because we are afraid of loss is deeply human, but so sad." – Carol Gilligan ([23:06])

• Mutual Reinforcement:
  The host and guest explore how patriarchal patterns endure partly because everyone—men and women—receive psychological “benefits” or protections, even as they suffer ([22:13]).

  • "By not experiencing generous, authentic love, we protect ourselves from loss." – Victoire Tuaillon ([22:13])

• Privilege and Trade-offs:
  Men may consciously or unconsciously trade the possibility of deep relationships for privileges and recognition within a patriarchal order ([26:26]).

4. The Human Voice vs. Patriarchal Voice

• Everyone develops a "patriarchal voice" to navigate society, but beneath it lies a "human voice"—our authentic self, still accessible through acts of resistance and self-inquiry ([32:04]).

5. Breaking the Pattern: The Path of Resistance

• Reconnecting with Authenticity:
  • Men are advised to spend time with young children (especially 4- to 5-year-old boys) to remember and rekindle their own capacity for emotional expression and connection ([34:07]–[35:37]).
  • "To recover what's inside you, spend time with young boys and observe their emotional vitality." ([34:07])
• Parents and Adults:
  • Should protect and nurture children's innate emotional intelligence and resistance to harmful socialization ([36:45]).
• Institutional Change:
  • Calls for change not just in families but also in educational and social institutions to stop perpetuating the sacrifices demanded by patriarchy ([38:14]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On learned masculine “numbness”:
  "If you meet a man who seems emotionally clueless, you have to ask: what happened to this person? Every man used to be a boy—emotionally intelligent."
  – Carol Gilligan ([31:58])

• On resistance and real love:
  "Unless you resist, you won’t have love."
  – Carol Gilligan ([33:46])

• On collective change:
  "I would ask all men to spend time with 4- and 5-year-old boys, to remember those human qualities within themselves."
  – Carol Gilligan ([35:37])

• On the price men pay:
  “Men destroy what they love in order to establish their masculinity.”
  – Carol Gilligan ([17:34])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:09–01:24: Introduction, context for the episode
• 01:37–04:46: Gender asymmetry in development; emotional challenges for boys and girls
• 05:00–08:55: How boys learn to mask emotions, Judy Chu’s study
• 09:14–11:46: Emotional intelligence of young boys, pressure to conform
• 12:38–15:27: Adolescent boys, the crisis of friendship and connection
• 15:27–17:24: Adam and Ali: A story of friendship lost to masculinity norms
• 18:34–20:43: What girls and women sacrifice for acceptance
• 22:13–23:27: Patriarchy as protection against vulnerability and loss
• 26:26–28:32: The privileges patriarchy offers and what it demands in return
• 32:04–33:41: The “human” vs. “patriarchal” voice
• 34:07–39:28: How adults can recover lost capacities and help children resist harmful gender socialization
• 40:52–41:54: Gilligan’s recommended films exploring alternative masculinities

Recommendations

• Films:
  • Phantom Thread (Paul Thomas Anderson)
  • First Reformed (Paul Schrader)
  • BlacKkKlansman (Spike Lee)
    “These films show men speaking in a different, non-patriarchal voice.” – Carol Gilligan ([40:52])

Tone and Language

The tone is both conversational and reflective, deeply empathetic, and grounded in concrete research and lived experience. Both Tuaillon and Gilligan emphasize the fundamental humanity beneath patriarchal conditioning, encouraging personal and collective avenues for change.

Conclusion

This episode incisively explores how patriarchy warps not only public institutions and relationships but also our innermost desires and modes of connection. It argues that everyone suffers—and that resistance, recovery of authenticity, and fostering empathetic relationships are both possible and necessary. The conversation closes on a note of hope, urging listeners to seek their “human voice” and build healthier models of love and connection.