← Let's Be Honest with Kristin Cavallari
Let's Be Honest with Kristin Cavallari
Inside Family Wounds with Marriage and Family Therapist Vienna Pharaon
01:18:57
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The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
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This is, let's be honest with Kristin Cavallari, a podcast all about getting real and open on everything from sex, relationships, reality tv, wellness, family, and so much more. And just a fair warning, there will probably be some oversharing. Welcome, guys. I am so excited for today's conversation. We are being joined by Vienna Farren. She's a licensed marriage family therapist, and she's actually one of New York City's most sought after relationship therapist. She's practiced therapy for over 15 years and she's the founder and owner of the group Practice Mindful Marriage and Family Therapy. She received her Master of Science in Marriage and Family Therapy from Northwestern University and trained extensively at the Family Institute, Betty D. Harris Center. Her book, the Origins of you is a national bestseller. Deanna, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to talk to you today.
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Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to see where our conversation goes.
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I know. Well. Okay, so I want to talk a lot about our childhoods and how they shape us into the adults that we are today and how the trauma that we experienced as kids, it really affects all of our relationships. And then I also want to talk about what we can be doing as parents to break patterns and make sure that we're not projecting our own pain onto our kids. So that's kind of the direction that we're going to go today.
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All right.
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Okay. So you offer a quiz that people can take to identify their primary origin wound. And so which I took, by the way, and I love, loved it. But first, I want you to explain what an origin wound is and why it's important for us to be aware of what our wounds are.
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Totally. Yeah. So like you said, my work is all around understanding the family systems that we grew up in. Of course, wounding and pain can come from other places. Friendship relationships with teachers and coaches, and obviously our relationship with society and religion, et cetera. But I like to at least start with looking at our family of origin. That system is the system that shapes so much of who we are and how we relate to ourselves and others and the world at large. It's the place where the blueprint and the foundation for how we communicate and how we navigate conflict and hard moments and what love is and what intimacy is and what boundaries are and what worthiness feels like in our bodies and all of that jazz. And so when we start to look at, you know, the. For me, there were two family systems because my parents went through a divorce and So I learned how to be in one household, and I learned how to be in a different household because there were different rules and different expectations and different relationships there. So sometimes we are looking at one and sometimes we're looking at multiple. But those first relationships, right, they set the blueprint for us. And some of us have terrible, awful, horrible stories, and others of us maybe not so terrible, but we still have relationships with imperfect people, people who will let us down and say the wrong things and disappear. And so I like to sort of name from the beginning how important it is to not check yourself out of this conversation if you feel like you had a decent childhood. Not check yourself out of this conversation if you know someone who, quote, unquote, had it worse. Not check yourself out of this conversation if you're like, I don't have terrible trauma, so this isn't for me. I talk about wounds because I think it's part of the human experience that at some point we're going to come up face to face with our relationship, with worth, with belonging, with prioritization, safety and trust. And when I talk about origin wounds, I'm talking about our first experience that puts one of those things into question. And sometimes we have an origin wound that we're not going to find in four, five, six years old. We might have an origin wound that originated when we're 13 or 18 or, I don't know, two months ago. And so, yes, of course we're looking at the family of origin first, but I still want people to just keep their eyes and ears open and aware to experiences that rupture something in a really significant, significant way that changes our trajectory with how we trust ourselves or other people, with how we feel safe in the world or not, with how we value ourselves and feel worthy and deserving of something good or not, et cetera. So, yeah, the first times that we have a significant enough rupture, that changes the trajectory in the way that we relate to those wounds.
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So I know that sometimes if people have a lot of trauma, they don't have a lot of memories from their childhood. If someone comes to you and they don't, they don't know when they experience these ruptures. For example, what are questions that you first ask to try to get someone to start thinking about these things?
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So sometimes, a lot of times when we don't have the memory, it's for good reason. Our systems are protecting us from something that might be too overwhelming for us to name, connect with process, etc. Sometimes we work back. So it's a great question, because people are like, I don't know the first time. So can I even do this work? And so we can look at our most recent time, right? We can look at a time that we do have access to to begin some of this work. So, yeah, if we don't have the memory, know that your nervous system is doing a beautiful, brilliant job of protecting you. We recollect the peaks and the valleys most of the time. Right. We don't remember a lot of the middle stuff. And so if you had a somewhat boring childhood, there might not be so many things that stand out to you. But yes, the highs and the lows are oftentimes the things that we remember. And if we can't remember, there's a reason that our systems are protecting us from accessing that. So, yeah, we just journey a little bit back. And then the more in the therapeutic relationship. What's so beautiful about it is that over time, enough trust and safety can be built here. And when there's enough safety that the system is experiencing, then it knows that it can access something a little bit, like the door opens a little further. And now it feels safe enough in our bodies or safe enough in this relationship to be able to. To go there.
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So if someone is at home and they don't have access to you, are there journal prompts that maybe they could do if they have a hard time remembering those first few traumatic experiences? Are there prompts that they can ask themselves to start getting it out on paper?
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So we don't want to push to try to remember. But I think one of the things that. Because that's going to be over time, the nervous system is going to allow it over time. But a really good place to start is where am I most reactive in my current life?
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Okay, yeah.
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Reactivity is such a good sign that there is something that's unresolved here. Right. It's like anytime we have activation, anytime that we have, you know, something that feels like it engulfs us, it like takes over the wheel. Reactivity lets us know that there is something there that is worth us looking at. There's a question. I share it in the book. It's a question I come back to all the time. Again, sometimes people don't have the memory, but we might have some thoughts about it as adults, which is, what is something that I needed most as a child and didn't get? And we might not be able to feel that it might live a little bit more cognitively at first. Like, okay, I can point to what I know about my childhood. Sometimes our quote unquote memories are really just stories that have been told to us. And it might not be something that we necessarily recollect ourselves, but we might be really clear that, like, we could take a guess that maybe what I needed was to be prioritized by a parent who was, you know, totally prioritizing other things in their life, for example. So we might be able to enter it that way by naming what it is that we could have used more of or different of as kiddos. There's a few other signs that'll show us, like if you're able to give great advice to other people that you can't take yourself, that's a pretty good indicator where there's, there's a misalignment there, you know exactly what you ought to do. I can tell you why you are so worthy. But when it comes to me having to implement the same boundary or express myself in the way that I'm cheering you on, that's gonna reveal something to us. And then, you know, sabotaging relationships, which I always love to reframe as self protection. But anytime that we see ourselves behaving in a way that ruptures other relationships or like, leads us down a path where. Why did I do that? I don't understand this, right. That there, our system is protecting us in some way. And again, that's a good access point to get more curious, roll up the sleeves and see what we might be able to find there.
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Okay, I love that, I love that you don't have to try to force these memories. That it may not be that beneficial because. Yeah, okay, there's a reason why we're protecting ourselves.
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That's right. And we actually don't need the memory to heal. Like if it's there, wonderful, you know, okay. And there's a, there's value to being able to work with it. No, we don't need to be like, okay, what's the right question so that I can recollect what happened. We don't want to override that system. Our, our, our bodies are doing a beautiful, brilliant job in protecting us. And so there are other ways for us to do that. But yeah, there's going to be things that I think sound the alarm when we're like, oh, why do I get so upset about X, Y and Z? That's, that's going to be a good indicator as to, you know, where the wounds are.
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Okay, that makes sense. What are the five wounds? Because there's five core origin wounds, right?
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Yes. Yeah. So I talk about worthiness, belonging, prioritization, trust and safety. It's my language. Other people might use other words to describe the experience, but when I sat, you know, I've worked with clients for over 25,000 hours now, and so I feel like I have a pretty good idea of, you know, the human experience and relationship to pain. And these were the five that really. Yeah, just came to the surface and felt like they encapsulated a lot of the experience. So, you know, for worthiness, a lot of people present day are the perfectionists, the pleasers, the performers, the folks who are the comic relief. Like, the people who learned that they. There were rules and conditions to the love, right? Be xyz, be a fantastic student to get love, attention, validation, affirmation, presence, connection from somebody in your family or. Or if you don't do that, then somehow it's removed, right? So there's a lot of conditional love around the worthiness wound. Sometimes we also grow up with people who tell us that we're worthless. You know, sometimes it's just an explicitly spoken thing that we hear. Sometimes it's through these subtleties. I grew up with a father who would. When I behaved the way he wanted me to, he was fantastic. Like, would show up in all of the ways, was super present, super helpful. And then when I didn't behave in the ways that he wanted me to, I was punished through the silent treatment. And so it was something. And it would go on days, weeks on end sometimes. And it was something that really did teach me that, okay, to get love, to get connection, to have a relationship be right here with me. I need to be a certain way. And if I am difficult or I cause trouble in any way, then connection is broken, right? And relationships are lost or people leave you. Even though he didn't leave me forever, right. He left me in these, what are significant amounts of time, right? Days, weeks on end of like, oh, my connection, my safety isn't here unless I am exactly how you want me to be. So sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's subtle ways that it shows up, the belonging wound. Some families sort of have this, like, this is who we are. This is what we believe. This is how we operate in the world. And if you deviate from this in any way, you're out, right? And the out, you know, it's. It's the black sheep of the family. It's the outcast, it's the loner, it's. And sometimes it swings the other way where it's like, Okay. I don't want, I'll, I'll adjust who I am to make sure that I have attachment. Right. No matter what, because I just want to fit in because the possibility of not is too scary for me. But yeah, when you, when we have family systems that don't know how to accept us where, where our differences so confronting for them, that there's no room, there's no wiggle room in there whatsoever, Right. It's something that will often create a belonging wound. Of course, culture, society, all of that will also play into this too. But if we're looking at our family of origin, right? Like how our family accepts our authenticity, right. And there's a quote from Gabor Mate where he, he says authenticity and attachment are like the two lifelines, like kiddos need those two things more than anything. But when attachment is threatened, we will release authenticity immediately because attachment is needed and it's required. And so if that, if you can only have one or the other, we're going to let go of who we are. Right. And that, you know, obviously that's not static, but we're going to let go of that. Because belonging is so much more important than being too much of this or being too little of that prioritization. So this shows up when there is something else in a caretaker parent's life that is more important to them chronically than you. So this will often show up in a space where, you know, maybe a workaholic parent, or sometimes it's a parent who are constantly fighting and so the conflict is actually prioritized more than anything else that's, it's all consuming. Or you might, you might have grown up with a sibling who had special needs and the attention and energy was going to that person instead of you. Or maybe there was a parent who was struggling with substance abuse, mental health challenges. Right, whatever. Or a parent who is single, but they're dating and they're constantly talking about dating and going on dates and they're not really orienting around you. Right. So there's a lot of different things that pull a parent's attention and energy away from being able to prioritize you. I'm not talking about one offs, right. Like a parent who had to stay up to, to, you know, finish something for work. Right. We're talking about the chronic persistence of this. And then, you know, trust and safety, in some ways they go hand in hand. It is so common to have both. So trust is the rupture of like, we'll see it in the obvious ones where people Are like, you either experienced or witnessed a betrayal happen or deceit or lies, Right. Or you have words not matching actions. Right. So somebody who doesn't show up to pick you up from school multiple times and they're breaking your trust. Trust that way, or family secrets is a really common one. Sometimes the secret is held within the family system, and sometimes it's a secret that you're asked to hold from one of the parents or a secret that you're holding from somebody else in the system or you just are watching that there's a break in trust. And sometimes we get the message too. Like, you've probably heard this before where people are like, never trust a man or a woman because they're just going to xyz. And so you might get an explicit message that way. And then safety. When we're talking about the absence of safety, we're often talking about the presence of abuse. So it's a very tender wound to be with. But ultimately a rupture in safety is that your safety is not prioritized, respected, held. Sometimes it happens because people are being negligent or reckless with you. They're being abusive towards you, they're using coercion, power, control of you. And sometimes it happens in these awful accidents where there's no bad intent. I talk about stories in the book where you know somebody who's home, home, Grandma's babysitting, but grandma has a stroke.
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Right.
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Or you have like a home invasion. It's nobody's fault. It's nobody in your family's fault. But sometimes these things just happen and it ruptures our ability to feel safe in the world. So, yeah, you know, again, let me just say this really fast. Wounds are not always created because parents are abusing you or they are negligent. Sometimes this happens because life happens. Right? Like, sometimes this happens because, yeah, like we're in the wrong place at the wrong time or, you know, so I want to just hold that as well, that we're not, you know, just looking for all the bad stuff in our history, that we're not on some wild goose hunt in taking down our parents. That this is about really acknowledging what our story is and its impact on us. Because the things that are unresolved from the past do come along with us. And they show up in our present days and our relationships in ways that we often don't want them to. And there's such a deep value in being able to acknowledge that pain and see how it still shows up in our lives so that we can actually have the relationships and the life that we say we want and desire most.
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And can you have more than one wound? You can, right?
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Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I get so many DMS from people who are like, is it possible to have all five? Yes. Yeah. Yes. I know that can feel overwhelming to people sometimes, but. But we get to take this slowly. And I also want to remind people that your story doesn't have to fit into a box. It's how you internalize the experiences that you have. Right. And so somebody who, you know, a parent who abandons you might be experienced as a worthiness wound for one person. Meaning, okay, you left because I wasn't good enough or important enough to you for you to stick around and it might get internalized for somebody else as a trust wound. Okay, you left. And now I can't trust the most important people in my life to, you know, follow through on what their commitments are. Right. And so we're not putting experiences into boxes. This is about us understanding how our experiences and our story, like how we have placed it, how we have made sense of it. And that's where we do our work.
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So we have different stories because my parents went through a nine year divorce process and then neither one of them ever partnered again, never got married. Like, there was never anybody else that really came into that space which, which does its own number on you. There was like, until later on it was like, wait, you get one shot at this and that's it. And if you don't get it right, you know, it's like, then you don't get to love again. You know, it was like so interesting. I remember in my 20s it was like, whoa. And like, wow, I can't believe that that narrative was Playing sort of underneath the hood. And I didn't, I hadn't realized it. And then of course, there's so many people whose parents re, partner, remarry, and then maybe even have more children. Like my husband's family, for example. His parents divorced when he was three and then they both remarried, they both had a daughter, then they both had a son, they had a dog. It was like these two family systems that mirrored each other very closely. And he was sort of like, wait, where do I fit in to all of this? And so, you know, every, obviously everybody's experience with divorce is unique in their own way. I went through life pretending like their divorce didn't affect me at all. And part of, part of that was because they were crashing and burning in the worst way. And I didn't believe that there was room for me to not be okay either. And so I flew under the radar. I got good at all the things that I was, you know, invested in, whether it was sports or language or playing the violin. And I put all of my energy there. And that was the place where I was able to present to the world as a very well rounded kiddo. You know, that was a message that I heard all the time. But ultimately underneath it was I was not okay. But I didn't know how to even make contact with being not okay. So I just say that because we all internalize it and have such different experiences with it. But one of the things that I think is interesting is, you know, when divorce happens, what we see and what we experience is that two people, maybe two people that we love very much at the time, maybe not depending on how old we are or what's going on, we might have some complicated, like stories and relationships with them, but two people show us that they weren't able to figure out how to move through hard things together and come out the other side. Okay? Now, some people absolutely should end relationships, okay? And, you know, at the core, my colleague and friend Dewey Freeman describes healthy attachment, secure attachment as being able to go through a hard moment, stay in contact, and come out the other side. Okay? So what we see is two people not being able to go through whatever the hard moments are, remain in contact, and come out the other side. Okay? Now it's so easy to be like, well, here's why and here's what they did. And right. Like that there's a story and an explanation for all of that. But when we think about, you know, the security that, that base, you know, rupturing in some way, right? Like that is Part of what happens in that moment where, okay, hey, this is happening, and, you know, we're going in separate directions now. There's so much that happens after that. Same for me. Right. And your story is like, okay, we brought in other people and were there other kids on my.
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My mom's side, yeah. So her husband had two kids, but my dad's wife never had any kids, and they didn't have any kids.
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Yeah, yeah, Right. So there's. There's complications that play out there. So for you, like you said, the divorce doesn't really stand out to you. Like, maybe it wasn't super highly conflictual. Maybe it didn't feel SC in your body. You know, there wasn't anything for you to fear. Maybe I don't know how old you were, but maybe you even thought it was a good decision for them to. To get divorced. Some people do, some people don't. Right. And so much of this plays into, like, how old are the kids when it happens? All of that. Right. I was five. And so I didn't really, like, understand so much.
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So you can remember your parents together
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a little bit here and there, but most of it that stands out are the ruptures after, like, the high conflict, the manipulation, the gaslighting, the paranoia. Right. Like, all of that is what really stands out to me. So there's these ruptures when we are integrating into new family systems. The prioritization of, like, my new partner or their children and my children. And, like, there are so many layers to this. You know, I wonder too, because obviously you said you're divorced as well. I'm sure you are thinking about your kiddos in this and how they are. Yeah. Like, how they are moving through life and orienting to that. You know, I. It was interesting because I remember my parents not really speaking negatively about each other, and I actually remember them saying, like, I won't speak negatively about your father. I won't speak negatively. But then, like, their behavior didn't match up with that.
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Right.
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So, like, the dissonance of that, I remember standing out to me of like, oh, gosh, like, you guys really don't like each other. You hate each other right now. And I hear you saying one thing to me, but I don't trust what's happening here. And so, yeah, you know, again, I feel like I'm maybe looping around this, but probably at the core of it is this, like, how do we get through hard things together? How do we learn that? And what does that look like? How do we teach that to our children, even if we come, even as products of divorce, as people say. Right. Like, what does it look like to get through hard moments and that so that they can feel security. Not necessarily because no one will ever leave us or no, no relationship will ever end. That's not what we're trying to orient to. It's what I tried initially when I was like, oh my gosh, I have to go to school to understand relationships because I did not understand it through my family of origin because I don't ever want to go through what they went through, which I understood. But ultimately it wasn't about, okay, the only way to be healed or the only way to be okay in this world world is if a relationships don't end or people don't leave me. You know, that that can't be the answer. That can't be the outcome that we cling to. It's about being able to expand our tolerance for endings and, you know, the way that we internalize what that means about us and also to build strength in the relationships that get to persist. You know, the relationships where people will stay and how we can discern what is good for us or aligned for us and vice versa. And to build that and teach that in our children as well. Because the reality of it is all of your kids are going to go through endings at some point.
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Right?
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Right. They're all going to have, you know, someone maybe break their heart or their. Or a friendship might end or something along those lines is going to happen. And so we have to be able to, you know, tolerate that at some point without that meaning that we are worthless or all relationships are going to end or, you know, nobody loves me or nobody cares about me. And as parents, we can build that up through staying connected to them and in contact with them emotionally, physically, spiritually. When we go through hard moments as parent and kiddo.
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B
Yeah. What if one of the parents is consistently putting the other parent down through divorce? Because I know that it really does negatively impact kids and even my situation. My dad used to to any opportunity to trash my mom, and he would. And my mom never said a bad thing about my dad. And I think my dad's a typical narcissist. So I mean, now as an adult, it makes sense, but growing up, it confused me and my mom never defended herself. And there was a period of my life where I hated my mom because of it. And now I'm like, oh, I see it so clearly. And I actually have stopped talking to my dad. But I do feel like had My mom not talked negatively about my dad. Dad, but defended herself. It probably would have helped kind of answer some questions for me. So let's say you have a narcissist ex and they are trashing you constantly to the kids. What is the right approach?
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Yeah, so. So dealing with the other adult, that's pretty useless and pointless. So I think this is about, you know, connecting with the child. Especially if they say something about it or they overhear something. Like it is so good to label and name things when they're happening. And a lot of times I think as parents it's easy to be like, oh, like let's not bring attention to it. Or maybe they didn't hear it or maybe they didn't see it or maybe this. And that's maybe some hopeful thinking on our end. But I think that like, wow, you probably heard what so and so said that didn't feel good for me to keep hear or I don't like to speak that way to anybody else because it's disrespectful or it's cruel or it's, you know, whatever. Fill in the blank. What's it like for you to hear that? Can you share? Like, what do you notice in your body when you hear so and so say that to me or so and so say that to the other person or so and so say that to whomever. Like getting them to sort of orient to what's happening within them and when we name it, we help them sort of see that they're not so confused. Like to your point of wait, mom didn't say anything. Mom didn't really do anything. She just took it and placed it somewhere. But I was so confused about why she was doing that. And so this, what we're talking about is I'm not going to let you be confused, right? I'm going to tell you, like, this is not okay. We don't speak this way to people that, that you know, to anybody. We don't speak this way to people that we care, you know, any. Right. It's like we can use different language and if somebody's upset, okay, here's how I might say something if I'm upset, right? But I want to name with you that this isn't okay. What's it like for you? Like that experiential piece is so important. And again, of course age appropriate, you know, like you don't need to do this with a 2 year old. But right. It's like, you know, getting them to orient to, to whoa. Like yeah, I Feel like, heat in my hands or my jaw is tight, or like my. My stomach is swirling or, you know, it's like noticing and bringing attention to that so that they can. Yeah. Make contact with what's actually happening there, because it's real, and we are affected by those things as we should be. It's a. It's an appropriate response to have sensations in our body or to feel a certain way, whether we act on it or not. But to say it's okay and it is normal and it is appropriate for you to notice something happening inside of you. And I want to hear what's happening inside of you. I want to have a conversation with you. Right. That I think is a really beautiful way, because, look, we can't obviously stop certain things as much as we want to. And we also can't protect them from hearing, seeing all of the things that we would love to protect them from. And so this is more about out. No matter what it is, whether it's somebody badmouthing you or them dealing with something difficult at school, whatever it might be, we are learning how to connect with what is happening inside of my body. What I'm noticing, how I'm feeling, what sensations are there, what I'm experiencing. And then I have a place to put it. My mom's gonna listen to me. You know, she wants. She cares about what this is, and she can have a conversation with me about this. That's beautiful, because ultimately our kiddos are gonna go through those. Those things. And as much as we want to, you know, protect them from it and have them have it be something that's avoided, life is gonna. Life. And it might be really sad if it comes from, you know, a parent or extension. Of course we would like it to not be that. But, yeah, I think that this is a. The skill set that they get to develop with you.
- [34:05]
B
I agree. Yeah. And learning how to get it out, like you said, said, it's so important because I think a lot of times kids are just. They have to just hold it in themselves and shove it down and then. And then they're confused. Also, they don't understand why they feel a certain way about a parent or a situation. And so. Yeah, it's hard. That's hard.
- [34:23]
A
Well, what's so beautiful about what you're bringing up is, you know, so many of our experiences when we're kiddos, like, part of what survival looks like is just getting. Getting through it.
- [34:33]
B
Yeah.
- [34:33]
A
Like, we're just. We just get through it. Right. When we're kiddos, most of the time. You know, our generation didn't grow up with as much of this talk. Right. As maybe some of our kiddos are getting to experience today. And so, you know, you. You zip it, and then you find your way through and you get to the other side. But, like, When I was 5, 6, 7 years old, I wasn't like, oh, this was, like, this was so hard for you. Tell me more. You know, I. There was no inquiry whatsoever. And that's why now. Now at 40, you know, you're like, okay, I'm actually slowing down to acknowledge what the pain was, because we don't acknowledge the pain when we're kids. And what you're talking about is how do we acknowledge the pain? Not that they're going to live in a bubble. Not that we're going to abstain from any pain happening whatsoever. It's happening. Okay, so now how do we acknowledge it so you don't have to hold it for two decades, three decades, before you finally turn back around and say, say, oh, when I was 10, X, Y, and Z. You know, it's like, this is such beautiful work, Kristen, because you're saying, hey, I'll acknowledge it with you. This is hard. This is a hard moment. Exactly what I was saying before. This is the building of secure relationships. It's saying, here's a hard moment. Here's something hard that just happened to me, and you're a part of it because you observed it and you witnessed it and you experienced it, too. Maybe differently than me, but you experienced it, too. So here's a hard moment. Let's go through it together. Let's stay connected to each other while you tell me what this is like for you, and then you know what? We're going to come out the other side. Okay?
- [36:07]
B
Right?
- [36:07]
A
Like, that is at the core of this. So it's such beautiful work, and our ability as parents to be able to acknowledge the pain as it's presenting, I think just does wonders for our kiddos in the long run.
- [36:21]
B
I agree. What if your kid won't talk to you, though? What if they're like, whatever, it's fine, you know, like a typical teenager or something.
- [36:28]
A
Yeah, totally typical teenagers. They don't want to talk. But here's the thing. It imprints anyway. It imprints anyway. It imprints anyway. You know, they might not ever talk to you, but will they know that you cared? Yes. They might not ever talk to you, but will they know that somebody asked them questions and that was their expression of love? And that's what's to be expected in the future. Yes. Right. Like there's so you know, when you think about kids, okay, so for example, when I was a kid, I hated that my dad would stay up on the sofa and wait until I got home from being out every single time I was like, go to bed. I hate this. I don't like, stop looking out the window. Like it feels so weird. Yada yada, like I don't like it. You know what? That had an imprint on me that there was an impression that that had on me, which was, I am not going to sleep until you are home safe. I love you, I care about you. Your safety is the most important thing to me. Like that was never a question. Now as a teenager, hated it, right? Hated it. Like it would was like made my skin crawl. But as an adult, right when I look back when I'm like, oh, like thank you for loving me in this way. So again, right. Like what you do as a parent, of course, you know, they swat those. I don't have teenagers yet, but they swat those things away left and right. And of course they don't want to go there, but it is not lost on them. Your bids for connection, you're saying, whenever you want to talk, I'm here. That is their social media keep on.
- [38:00]
B
Okay.
- [38:00]
A
Yeah, Okay.
- [38:01]
B
I love that. That's really nice to hear. Yeah. Okay, guys, I want to talk to you about a brand I love. You already know it and it's Bon Charge. Bon Charge is a holistic wellness brand with a huge range of evidence based products to optimize your life in every way. You guys already know. But my personal favorite product is the the Rest of Red Light face mask. Red Light is great for so many things, but specifically wrinkles and fine lines. I also just find it to be really relaxing. It's so easy to use just 10 to 20 minutes each day. You can do it while you're watching TV, while you're folding laundry or walking the dogs. I mean anything. It has both near infrared and red light, so it boosts collagen and elastin production. It's super lightweight on the face and it, it doesn't get hot. One thing in particular that I love so much about theirs is there is zero EMF radiation, which you guys know I really care about. So go to boncharge.com honest and use coupon code honest to save 15%. That's B O N C-H-A-R G.com honest and use coupon code Honest to save 15%. Let's chat armor Colostrum we live in an environment our biology was never designed for. There's animals, EMFs, artificial lights, seed oils, microplastics, endocrine disruptors, modern stressors. These assaults can disrupt the signals your body relies on negatively impacting gut, immune and overall health. Armor Colostrum works at the cellular level to bolster your health from within. Colostrum is nature's first whole food with over 400 bioactive nutrients that fortify gut health, strengthen immune health, fuel performance, and so much more, paving the way way for your best health and vitality. So are you ready to claim your extraordinary Another thing I swear it does is I really think it ignites your metabolism. I am telling you and I've worked out a special deal for you guys. My audience receive 30% off your first subscription order. Go to armor.comhonest or enter honest to get 30% off your first subscription Order. That's a R M R A dot com honestly honest all right, let's talk about ritual. It's a lot just with the daily stuff that we all have on our plates right between exercising work, I'm basically an Uber driver for my kids. I mean it's just getting good food on the table. It's just a lot. And we know the importance of a good night's rest to keep up with the demands of a busy schedule. But it can be tough to switch off and relax at the end of a long, tiring day. Well, Rituals Magnesium plus is a blend of magnesium, magnesium, bisclycinate and tart cherry powder for mind and muscle relaxation, helping to unwind from the day and support restful sleep so you can wake up ready to take on the next day. I love having a ritual at night like this with Magnesium plus having my nightly drink. It's something that's new for me. I never used to have a drink like this at night, but I absolutely love it and now I look forward to it and it tastes so great and I'm sleeping like a baby. The Tart Cherry is made from Michigan grown Montmorency Tart cherries, which is backed by over 20 clinical studies and 15 years of research. It's clinically studied to support muscle recovery and quality sleep. I thought that was kind of cool. So sit back and raise a glass to your new Evening Ritual with Magnesium Plus. Save 25 on your first month@ritual.com Be honest. That's ritual.com Be honest for 25 off your first month let's chat about Kachava. I have had a fitness goal this Year of just making sure I'm getting in a ton of protein. Yeah, I know, me and everybody else, but it's been at the forefront of my mind. So that's why I'm really excited to talk to you guys about Kachava. Not only does it have protein and electrolytes, by the way, but it supports energy with five key vitamins and minerals. It's good for digestion. It's great for your metabolism with B vitamins, minerals and fiber. It's good for cognition. You can support your mind and your nervous system with essential minerals. And it's also really good for immunity with vitamin C, zinc, and probiotics. I mean, it really has so many much. I am a chocolate girl. Personally, I love adding mine with frozen banana, doing some coconut milk. I've even put coffee in it too, in the morning if I'm in a hurry. And it is so good. But no matter what flavor you love, they have something for everybody. Cachava provides clean nutrition to fuel wherever your day takes you. No fillers, no nonsense, just two scoops. Provide 25 grams of protein, 6 grams of fiber, greens, adaptogens and so much more.
- [42:44]
A
More.
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B
You guys are going to love it. So stick with your wellness goals. Go to kachava.com and use code honest for 15% off. That's Kachava. K A C H A V A dot com code honest. What about what if kids don't like the step family or the step parent, let's say on the other side, what kind of conversations can you be having? And I know that that's such a range, right? Like some kids just aren't going to like a stepmom because it's their stepmom. But what if. What if there's real stuff going on over there and you are kind of worried? What can you be saying to your kids to make them feel better?
- [43:25]
A
Well, like you said, range. And obviously it depends on what it is. Children don't need to like everyone, get along with everyone. And, you know, I think that's that line between, you know, being respectful as long as things are, you know, safe in that environment, but still having a space with you to share, you know, what they don't like and, you know, what's not okay or what they're struggling with or guess what, wounds happen in step families, too. You know, it's like you can have even if you don't like a person or they're not your, you know, father or your mother or you wouldn't use a label with them that indicates Any type of intimacy. You know, it's like you can still have experiences where your safety isn't cared for or you are deprioritized in that family system. You're spending enough, adequate time with that person where that strips something away. And so I think as a parent who is navigating that space, which is okay, like you are, you know, whatever court ordered to go here, this is the amount of time you have to spend or here's what the agreement is. And also, gosh, I need to know what you might be struggling with as a kiddo because it probably will point to a potential wound that could be getting created there, right? So for example, you know, kids, and I'm not, this isn't about you and your children, but say there is a step family and there's other kids in the home and that woman prioritizes her kids and they can do no wrong. And you're always the problem as the other child coming in and out and in and out and in and out. And you don't feel a sense of belonging here. You're always the one in trouble. You're not spoken to in the same way and you are not loved in the same way way, right. And so like, yeah, that's going to have an effect on you, right? It is going to have an effect. And then why isn't my other parent have my back or stepping up for me or you know, protecting me in some ways now I don't feel protected by, by you. And this doesn't feel fair and this doesn't feel right. And so yeah, as a, as a parent who maybe feels a little helpless or powerless to some degree, you know, maybe one of the things that we can do is at least open up that dialogue to see what our child, child might be struggling with there and what their experience might be like. Now again, you might feel helpless or powerless because maybe you try to have a conversation with the other person. It goes nowhere. They're in a safe enough environment so nobody's going to do anything about it. This is just, you know, it's just what it is. And that can feel so, so hard as a parent. But I think it just circles us back to this isn't how it should be. You know, I am talking about where those pain points are for the kiddos and then having that place now again, if you have a teenager who doesn't want to talk about it, who doesn't want to go, it's the same thing, right? Keep bringing it up, keep seeing them, keep, you know, we as parents, we see them, we hear them, we attune to them, even if they're not willing to say something to us.
- [46:34]
B
Right, okay.
- [46:35]
A
And so that message of I see you and I hear you, even though you're not speaking words right now, I attune to you. I can feel energetically that when you come home from that house, something's different. I see you, I understand. I'm connecting with you. Right. Like, that's so beautiful. That's such a gift, even if it doesn't move the needle on certain things. So, yeah, you know, it's complicated because everybody has such different situations. The range of what can be happening there is vast. But I think as a parent who cares and who loves, we just keep coming back to that over and over and over again and creating safety and trust and belonging. And you are a priority here, and you are worthy and valuable here. Like, we just keep creating those things in some part of their life, even if it's in question elsewhere.
- [47:30]
B
Right. So you said that you sort of had these, like, two different families growing up, and so you would have to go, go, like, between both energies. And. And so what is that like for a kid? I mean, I also had step families, but I wasn't back and forth like that. So I never had to experience, like, the energy shift from, like, weekend to weekend or whatever it was. But my kids go through that. So I am curious what that's like.
- [47:54]
A
Yeah, there's like a. There's a little bit of performance, I think that can happen. Like, okay, now who do I need to be and how do I. How do I make you happy? Was a big one for me. I was such a peacekeeper because they were so quick to be angry and fight with each other and, you know, just be in these heightened conflicts all the time. And I never wanted anybody's feelings hurt. You know, I just kept riding that middle line of, I love being here with you. You know, there was the time when I had to go into the judge's chambers and be interviewed. And I remember when he.
- [48:32]
B
That's awful.
- [48:33]
A
Sat me down and he said, we are recording this interview and your parents will both get a copy of it. And then proceeded to ask me questions like, whose home do you like being in more? And who's the. You know, and it's terrible. I don't remember exactly how old I was, but probably 9 ish, 10 ish. And so I learned to play that middle ground, right. Of like, I had a good time, but I missed, missed you. I'm so happy to be here now. And, oh, yes, dad, I'm missing you back here on a phone call. Right. And so this, like, back and forth and then this performance of everything's okay, and I'm adapting, all right, And I just know how to fit into this system now. I didn't have siblings. I'm an only child, so it was like adult and me, adult and me. It wasn't like there weren't so many different personalities in the home. My grandma lived with my mom and me at one point, that was there. But, yeah, it's. There was a lot of performance and a lot of tending to the emotional experience of the adults. What do you need? How can I make you okay? How do you feel? Loved and missed by me and that I'm so happy to be here. So, yeah, a lot of that was my experience.
- [49:41]
B
It's hard for a kid.
- [49:44]
A
Yeah.
- [49:45]
B
If it takes kids a day or two to kind of relax after the come home from your exes, what can you do in those situations? Should you give them space? Should you ask them questions? What's the right thing to do?
- [49:55]
A
Yeah, I think it's just about holding the safety in the home, like, easing in kind of a slow movement into the home. I think sometimes it can be easy as a parent to be like, okay, like, we're good. Like, I love that you're here. Like, there's a lot of energy and, like, let's do things. Things. And sometimes that need to just be like, maybe the music that's on in the home is music that's soothing. You know, maybe it's a. It's our favorite meal on the first night that everybody comes back. Tricky when you have multiple people who have different favorites. Right. But, you know, just like, what are the things that are my expression of, you're loved, you're safe, you can take your time. Time. I don't need anything from you. Right. Like, if I know that it takes a day or two. Great. Like, I'm not pressing this, and I'm not forcing anything, and I don't need you to tend to me at all.
- [50:54]
B
Right.
- [50:54]
A
Like, I think that that is one of the things that kids often feel the pressure to do. Like, are you okay? You know, like, they're. They're managing that emotional experience of an adult. And when we, as adult adults are, okay, I don't need anything from you. If you need to take a day and a half to yourself and I just make sure that you're fed and clothed and all of that, like, great, do it. I don't need you to be okay and ready to go and ready to play a board game with me and ready to talk and ready to this. Like, I don't need anything from you. So I think there's something about that just creating a. It's almost like the collective nervous system. You know, if you think back to when your kids were really little, co regulation, right? It's like when your baby is crying, you'll hold them close and you'll rock back and forth and you'll sing, you'll say you are loved and you are safe, right? It's like. And so to create that co regulation again in the home that says, great, yeah, you are loved. Loved. You are safe. Right? It's like that energy. And so obviously, each home is different, but what does that look like for you? You know, it's like, is it music? Is it food and nourishment? Is it just a calmer energy? Like, what has to happen here for this transition to take place? Transitions are hard.
- [52:21]
B
Yeah, they can be.
- [52:23]
A
They really can be. And, you know, it's interesting when you think about. I know we're talking a lot about kiddos and their experiences. You know, one of things. My husband and I laughed so hard about this because one of the patterns that we see is that when he leaves for work and he comes back and he wants to offer goodness to me, meaning, like love, appreciation, validation, affirmation, he's like, thank you so much. I, like, so appreciate. He's so good at it, right? He's so good at it. But I have historically rejected it. I, like, I have a really hard time receiving good goodness in transition. And if we look closely at my story, right, which he and I do, it's that, yeah, like, transitions were actually very hard for me, even though I was performative and I played it off like they were simple, it was very hard because there was a lot happening between them. And so, yeah, now when the leaving and the coming back, there's like, there's like this little rupture that happens in that space. And I've had to work really hard at opening myself and opening my heart. Heart and allowing that goodness in without needing to reject it or punish him in some way for leaving and returning. So, yeah, transitions can be really tricky, especially when kiddos are used to every other weekend. Or for me, it was every Wednesday and every other weekend and going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So, yeah, when we can make. Make the transition, just feel safer and, like, I don't need anything from you as Your parent. I think that helps a lot.
- [54:03]
B
Well, I think that's why it's so crucial that we as parents can do the healing really before we have kids is obviously ideal. But if you can do it when they're younger so that you don't need anything from your kids, isn't that sort of the goal? Like, you don't want to project anything onto your kids?
- [54:20]
A
Yeah, you know, it's like there's some inevitability to this. And. And so we are going to pass some pain to them, of course, but I think it's less about like, okay, nothing. I'm not passing anything down to you whatsoever, versus actually our ability to recognize when that is happening and then acknowledge it and go through the process of repair. I work with adults who were all children at one point. And, you know, everybody. Most people just want acknowledgment. You know, they just want that when nobody ever. Nobody's like, I want to go back in time. I want to be a time traveler. Like, we know it happened, it's there. Okay, so we can't rewind. But what we can do is we can have an emotionally mature parent who is able to say, you're right. Like, gosh, I see that. That must have been awful for you. I am so sorry.
- [55:26]
B
Right.
- [55:27]
A
Like, tell me what you want me to know about that experience. I really want to understand that to be emotionally mature can be so hard. Feedback is hard for most people because it's tied to, okay, I've done something wrong, and if I've done something wrong, then I'm worthless. Done something wrong, and now somebody's going to punish me. I've done something wrong, and now I'm imperfect. I've done something wrong, and I used to get hit because of that. So now I'm no longer safe. Right. The reason there's so much that we associate with being told that we did something that hurt somebody else or we did something wrong. Right. So what happens is we go into a place of self protection instead of staying relational. Right. So when I move into a place of needing to protect myself from what you're telling me, I can no longer care about what you're sharing. So repair can't happen here. Yeah. And so your questions are really important when I'm not actually getting too far away from it, it's that we are going to screw things up. I mean, I think everybody's sort of heard that before. Like, you're going to screw. You're going to, you know, mess up your kids. Like, you're going to do something wrong. Okay, we can. We can agree to that. We're going to try to do as little as possible, right? Like, that's our. That's our goal. But we're going to do something. And then the next best thing is that we are emotionally mature enough to hear that feedback and that we can acknowledge and we can take responsibility for it, own it, right? Not make excuses about it. I don't need all the context, all that. Like, I. I see it, I hear you. Yes. And I'm so. A heartfelt apology and an ability to repair. We don't want children to grow up in vacuums where their lives are simply perfect.
- [57:12]
B
Right.
- [57:12]
A
We actually don't. You know, that's. That's not the journey that they are on. That's going to do some harm and damage too. You know, it's like we actually need to go through hard things and come out the other side. Like, we need to go through moments and then learn that adults can be responsible and that adults can take ownership and that somebody I love can say, you're right, I see what you're saying, and that we can have repair and then we can move on and get to, you know, get to the other side. And, like, I don't have to hold onto it forever and I don't have to punish you in return. Right? So the ability to make a mistake and then repair after that is one of the most important things that we can do. It doesn't matter. Maybe you've heard this within the context of couples. Like, conflict isn't really the problem. It's the lack and absence of repair that is same with kiddos. Like, we're going to get it wrong. We're going to disappoint them. We're going to let them down. Sometimes we're going to say something that we're like, oh, I can't believe that came out of my mouth. Like, I wish I could take it back. And also, okay, it happened. And now my ability to get to. To a place of repair with you, that's it. That's my number one.
- [58:19]
B
And when you are repairing, I've heard this before. So, like, let's say I yell at my daughter, for example, and then I go to apologize and I'm like, hey, sailor, I want you to know that's not how I want to be as your mom. I hate that I got like that with you. I'm so sorry. But then you can't launch into. But you know, you are in the future. You can't Do X, Y, and Z. Is that right? Like, it has to just be, I am sorry. And if we have to talk about her behavior later, that's one thing, but right now, it's just my apology.
- [58:47]
A
Of course. Yes, yes.
- [58:49]
B
There's.
- [58:49]
A
There are. Consequences are allowed. Right. It's like, you know, if. If a child does something that needs a consequence, of course. Right. But it's not the excuse for our behavior. Right. Which is I, as a parent, want to try to stay calm and grounded and anchored as much as possible.
- [59:07]
B
Possible.
- [59:08]
A
And we lose it sometimes, of course. Like, they're very good at testing and pushing those limits and doing all the things right. Like, it is inevitable. But, yes, our ability to say, whoa, okay, I'm really sorry I lost my temper. I don't want to speak to you that way. I want to stay calm when those things are happening and they're able to say, okay, thank you. You know, and that's it. We're gonna. We're not talking about anything else in that moment.
- [59:36]
B
Right.
- [59:37]
A
Our job is to regulate. And then totally separate moment, I get to say, hey, okay, so do you remember when XYZ happened?
- [59:45]
B
Yeah.
- [59:46]
A
Yeah. Like, let's talk about that, because that's not okay in this house. We don't do that. Or, you know, it's like, then totally separate conversation, we get to come back to that, but we get to do it from a place where I am not swirling. I'm not pissed. You cross this boundary and no, I've got, like, the steam is coming out the top of my head. You know, it's like, that was not gonna work. So I get to acknowledge and repair with you, and then once I am regulated in a different conversation, we can return to whatever the behavior was.
- [60:16]
B
Okay. I love that. I think in our society and on social media, we're always talking about what a bad relationship looks like or like, what's bad in a relationship, what we shouldn't be doing. I'm curious, from your perspective, what does a healthy relationship look like? Like, what should we be trying to do? What should we be modeling?
- [60:35]
A
Yeah. So are we talking about romantic relationships or romantic. So. And it's funny that I even asked you that question because kind of doesn't matter. You know, it's like any relationship, right? Like any intimate relationship that we are having. You know, I. I really believe that at the core, we want to have self awareness. We want to have a relational awareness at the core, like I said before, to be able to go through something hard and stay connected with you and come out the other side. Okay. I think is one of the muscles that we are trying to strengthen over time. I can think back to when my husband and I were dating and we had gotten into a fight, and I can't remember what we were fighting about, but what I do remember is that I was needing to prove my point and needing to be right. And I kept doubling down and tripling down and quadrupling down and. And I couldn't stop myself. Even though he was like, I get it. Like, I totally hear what you're saying. Like, I got it. And I just kept going. And I remember sort of having this out of body moment where I was like, vienna, stop it. Like, this is awful enough. Couldn't go into a little bit of a shame spiral and then get curious? And I replace my shame with curiosity. Like, okay, well, what's the function of needing to be right? Which I think is a very important question for all of us.
- [61:57]
B
Right?
- [61:57]
A
What's the function of the thing that I'm doing that I am ashamed of, that I feel embarrassed about, that I, like, think is a terrible type of behavior to engage in. And my fear in that moment was that this was going to end the relationship. Like, he had just seen a part of me that he was like, oh, gosh, I've not seen this before. So I was really worried that he might break up with me at the time. The function piece let me return to. Because it's not the point of the story. The point of the story is now, you know, 10 years later, later, when we go through something hard, when there is a conflict, when there's something that comes up, there is zero part of me that ever questions whether or not we will get through this and come out the other side. Okay? Now, the reason that's there is because I've had enough disconfirming experiences with him that have shown my nervous system that even when we disagree, even when we're upset with each other, even when we've let each other down in some capacity, even when something has happened, there's been a rupture in some way, I know that we are going to be able to find our way through this and come out the other side. And probably better, because we're both curious people who want to understand all of these parts and pieces. And because we have gone through that over and over and over and over and over again, I no longer have that fear that us going through something hard means that he's going to disconnect from me, that he's going to punish me in some way, like I had to been as a child, that he's going to end the relationship, that it's too much for our container to handle or withstand, right? And so, you know, that is something that builds over time. I can't tell you how many times we need to have that disconfirming experience for it to shift. But to have a healthy, strong relationship, I think one of the main things is that we are going to go through hard, hard things and that we know how to do that. You know, I think that we get, I've said this before, we are sold the falling in love story. We are not sold the keeping the love story. If you are with somebody for a long enough period of time, you will face hardship with them. You will, right? And sometimes I think, we think, okay, it looks this way, but then, oh gosh, we lose a parent or there's financial struggles or fertility issues or whatever it might, might be, right? And then we're like, oh, we don't know how to get through this. And so that piece, that ability to do that is so huge, so paramount. Self and relational awareness, our ability to hold the relational stance and not need to stay self protective, I think is also huge, is so huge, right? It's like when I am self protective, I cannot care about your experience even though I care about you. Like if we were to zoom out of this moment, even though I love you and care about you, I cannot show you that in this moment if I am protecting myself. I think a regulated nervous system, the ability to get there, not that we have to be regulated all of the time, but our ability to get there, to return to it is also so vital. You know, the curiosity piece, the self awareness going back to the story that I shared, which was what's the function of me needing to be writers, needing to prove my point. When I journeyed back to my childhood, I found, oh yes, exactly what I'm looking for, which is, you know, my dad was somebody who was very manipulative when I was young. It wasn't towards me, it was towards my mother. He was somebody who gaslit constantly. He was so sharp, so quick and she couldn't follow. It caused a lot of paranoia in her. And as the observer of it, I got really good at tracking, tracking him. But what I saw was his ability to be right no matter what because he was so good with his words was where safety resided. And an ability to not track that and not be right was where unsafety was. And so my path was in order to feel safe. I Need to be right all of the time now, great. We know this. That's a light bulb moment for me at that time. Like, okay, this makes a lot of sense. I'm having this aha moment. I been self reflective. Check, check, check. These are all good things that Vienna is telling us I need to do to have a healthy relationship. And then aha. And light bulb moments are not enough. Right. It's because I can know that and then I can still prove my point all the time.
- [66:22]
B
Right.
- [66:23]
A
So that's going to be destructive in a relationship. So self awareness, relational awareness, meaning I also know your story and I know your history and I know where your origin wounds are and the pain that you carry. But like, okay, now how, how does that come here? So great. I had the aha moment, I have the light bulb moment. But if I keep needing to prove my point, I am going to push you away and that is going to be destructive for our relationship. So I need to do healing work around that need to protect myself that way so that I don't keep breaking connection with you and pushing you away when whatever, we see things differently or like we have a different experience, that my safety is actually here in this relationship, relationship and I don't need to protect myself in this way. So that is something that builds over time, but it's where we all need to go. Because I think a lot of times on the healing journey people are like, I know why I do what I do.
- [67:19]
B
Yeah.
- [67:19]
A
I know where it comes from. But then they still self protect in the same way.
- [67:25]
B
Right? Well, you talk about your nervous system and it's true, right, that our nervous system doesn't know the difference between childhood and today. Today.
- [67:35]
A
Yeah.
- [67:35]
B
So what can you do? How can you, when you are triggered, what can you do in those situations to calm down, regulate your nervous system and start to distinguish between, you know, when you were five and now when you're 39 or whatever.
- [67:50]
A
Yeah. Right. So our nervous system is scanning everything that is happening around us, within us, all of the time. And it is deciding whether things are safe, dangerous, dangerous or life threatening. And it's pulling from a database of our history and you know, what it knows to be true. And so it's looking for things that are familiar. So yeah, even though, you know, our partner who comes home 30 minutes late and doesn't call us is probably not trying to harm us or do anything terrible to us whatsoever, our nervous system is looking at our watch, our phone, there's no text message coming in. And if we have any A prioritization wound, for example.
- [68:27]
B
Right.
- [68:28]
A
It's probably going to this place that says, you don't even care enough about me to message me. You have the audacity to do this? I'm making a dinner for us. I can't believe that. Boom, boom, boom. And all of a sudden we are raging and it is going higher and higher and higher. And then you. That person comes in and they're like, hi, I want to tell you about the podcast I was just listening to. And you're like, I'm going to. I'm so pissed. Right. And all of a sudden, we have no clue. Clue what just happened. Right?
- [68:54]
B
Yeah.
- [68:54]
A
So, yeah, our nervous system is doing its best job to protect us at all costs, but a lot of times, right. It doesn't meet the moment. And so we don't want to simply override that and say things like, get over it. No big deal. Like, your partner wasn't trying to hurt you. Stop making a big deal about it. That's why when people say, like, I'm not your father or I'm not your mother, like, that is so infuriating. Because it's not. We're not really understanding what is happening. It's like, yes, of course, literally, you are not. But also based on what my nervous system is experiencing and perceiving, you are right. And so our ability to, like, be in the nuance of what that is is so important. It's very important for us to understand the sensation in our bodies, so we want to pay attention to the sensations in our body, which is when we feel dysregulated. Like, you tell me, Krist, and when you're dysregulated, what do you. What do you know to be true about your body? Like, where do you feel it? What's the indicator that you're, like, no longer in charge of yourself or in control? I know.
- [70:01]
B
That's a good question. I will say it's so far and few between now that that happens. I do feel like I've done a lot of the work.
- [70:07]
A
Great.
- [70:08]
B
But I'm also not in a relationship. I do feel like when I get in relationship, we'll really start to see how much healing I've done. However, as a mom, occasionally sailor, my daughter, who is 10, because she is me and she's a very strong personality, and she will be very sassy with me and I will start to. It almost like starts in my stomach and kind of starts coming up. There you go. Is that right?
- [70:29]
A
Yes. Okay. Yeah.
- [70:30]
B
That's where I feel it good.
- [70:32]
A
Exactly.
- [70:33]
B
Right.
- [70:33]
A
So, you know, and, and I love that it's few and far between. Amazing work. And then yeah, of course, like relationally romantic relationships.
- [70:40]
B
I'll get back to you on that stuff.
- [70:42]
A
Yeah, we'll do a site, we'll do a another one later. But exactly that where you're like, oh, yeah, in my stomach and then it starts to just move up my body and then bam, right? And so for, and for other people, they like, maybe there's heat or pressure in their head, right? Or maybe they start to feel it like right in their jaw and it's like, oh, it's like fiery or something. So you want to notice, like, what are the indicators that are letting me know that I'm starting to become dysregulated, right? Like what are the sensations in my body that I'm aware of? And so if you don't know what the answer is, just notice it the next time that you get really reactive and just tune into what's happening in my body. Now when we need to get regulated, like ideally, when you feel that come through your stomach and then up your body, instead of staying in the conversation or instead of trying to achieve anything in that, that moment, what would be better for you is to maybe leave the room, maybe go outside and be in nature, maybe listen to music that helps ground you, maybe do a meditation, maybe do breath work, maybe rock your body from left to right and just ground in that way. Maybe do a visualization of your safest, most beautiful place that you've ever been, whether that's by the ocean or the mountain or on your porch or whatever it might be. Maybe it's stretching your body, right? There's a lot of different things that we can do to help us anchor back in when we are dysregulated. We are not the adult anymore. When I'm dysregulated and it can be different ages, but like when I'm like, how old do you feel right now? I'm like 17, 13, you know, and it's funny, you know, when you talk about your daughter and you're like, oh, the sassiness. And like, when did that sassiness come? And like how old do you feel in those moments when you're about to go to battle with your 10 year old, you know, and it's like, right, the adult isn't here anymore, right? Like the adult has left the room and we want to bring our adult self back into the room, right? We want to bring our anchored self back into the room. That's able to see things clearly and hear things clearly and is not needing to self protect in the same way. And yeah, like, like a workout sometimes for me is really helpful. Visualization can be really helpful. Going out and going for a walk and just being in nature and just like listening to the birds, chirping sometimes, like, the simplicity of some of those things helps me just ground in box breathing. So many different exercises that we can lean on to help us really come back into our bodies. And so, yeah, that's what you would want to do is to notice, like, oh, I am gone. Yeah, yeah. Like the adult me has left. I have been inhabited by a younger version of myself. And I am going to go get the adult me by going for a walk, listening to music, stretching, move my body, et cetera. And then once we get her back, then we get to continue that conversation. And it goes a very different way, doesn't it?
- [73:53]
B
It really makes such a difference when you can say, you know what? I don't want to respond while I'm like this. I need four, five minutes.
- [73:59]
A
Yes.
- [73:59]
B
And you go do. And sometimes, honestly, for me, I've noticed it can even be two minutes going in my room, taking a couple deep breaths, refocusing, and coming right back out and I'll be okay.
- [74:10]
A
But it makes all the difference. It really does.
- [74:13]
B
Yeah.
- [74:14]
A
So that's the practice, whether it's with a child or a partner or your parent or a friend, whoever.
- [74:22]
B
Right.
- [74:22]
A
Is that when we are dysregulated, our job is to come back into regulation. Sometimes it takes two minutes, sometimes it takes an hour, Sometimes it's tomorrow or next week, depending on, you know, the relationship and what we've got going on. But I'm going to return to this at some point from a very different place. That's our goal.
- [74:42]
B
You want to know what's funny too, is I had someone, I can't remember who told me this, but even with social media comments, if someone pisses you off, you know, and you want to respond, they would say, take 24 hours. Because the next day when you're like, do you want to go respond? You're gonna be like, no, I don't even care.
- [74:57]
A
I'm over it.
- [74:58]
B
So it's the same.
- [74:59]
A
It could really be applied to any
- [75:01]
B
situation across the board.
- [75:03]
A
Yes, absolutely. I love that you brought that up. Right. It's like that moment you're like, I'm gonna clap back. And it's like, nope, I'm. I'm gonna take a breather. And yeah, like right now in this moment, whatever it is you're criticizing about me, it is activating a wound within me.
- [75:20]
B
Right.
- [75:21]
A
Like, whatever the criticism is, it's activating something within me. And so if I. Whether I need to tend to the wound specifically or not. Right. Because sometimes I just need to take the breather and let it go. But for some of us, we need to tend to that wound very specifically, and then we can reenter into that space. So. Yeah. I love the, like.
- [75:38]
B
Yeah.
- [75:39]
A
Getting into dysregulation because of bots.
- [75:42]
B
Right, right, exactly. I know. Vienna, you're amazing. I could listen to you talk for hours. There's something that's so calming and nice about just how you say everything. I really enjoyed this conversation.
- [75:55]
A
That's very sweet. Thank you. Yeah, I love being in conversation, too. And you need to hit me up when you're in a romantic relationship, because you're going to get tested. And we'll probably have to have another conversation about that.
- [76:06]
B
Done. I will. You will be my first phone call. Where can everyone find you? Find your book, because your book is incredible. So socials and then. Yeah. Where everyone can just find you across the board.
- [76:19]
A
Totally. Yeah. So on Instagram, mindful MFT, as in marriage, family therapy. Viennaferron.com the book is the origins of how breaking family patterns can liberate the way we live in love. It's. Yeah, it's. It's such a. I do really love this book, and I think it's a great way for people to access this work in the privacy of their own home and take it at a speed that works for them. And I do a lot of storytelling in the book, which I think is a really nice way sometimes for people to see themselves in someone else, as opposed to sometimes that work. That's just asking you to look at yourself and, you know, examine and figure it all out. Like, sometimes we see ourselves through other people. And I love that that book presents this in that way. Yeah. You took the quit. Are you gonna tell people what you got?
- [77:08]
B
Well, you. Okay. So for the quiz, I will. I got safety wound. But here's what I found interesting. And that's kind of why I asked why I think. I think I'm a few. I had a hard time answering it from a place of today, so I found that I was answering questions maybe from, like, six years ago, because I do feel like I've been on a healing journey since my divorce six years ago. And I'm really proud that a lot of things that would are, like, what your triggers are I was like, none of this would trigger me today, but it would have six years ago.
- [77:38]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [77:39]
B
But the questions from childhood I had no problem answering. But the safety, safety was my, my wound. But I do feel like the worthiness, I do feel like that one was is probably a bigger one for me.
- [77:53]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think everyone probably brushes up against worthiness, but so if people are curious where they can start, they can take that quiz totally free. Comes with lots of supporting material after the fact and prompts and reflections and all of that. And then I created the Origin Healing Method, which is a five part guidebook series around the wounds. And it's the place where we take all of the things that we understand and like the aha's that we've had in the light bulb moments and it's, you know, 400 plus pages of practices, things that we can do every day, working with our nervous system to really heal those wounds. So you can find all that stuff in my bio and all that jazz. But just so happy to be here and have this conversation with you and. Yeah.
- [78:32]
B
Oh well, thank you so, so much the chat further. Yeah, me too. We'll do this again for sure. Well, thank you.
- [78:39]
A
Thanks Krista.
- [78:47]
B
Please note that this episode may contain
- [78:49]
A
paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.