Mushrooms, the CIA, and Energy Alchemy, Oh My! with Christine Thompson

Summary

Podcast Summary: Let's Be Honest with Kristin Cavallari

Episode: Mushrooms, the CIA, and Energy Alchemy, Oh My!
Host: Kristin Cavallari
Guest: Christine Thompson
Date: November 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking and deeply honest conversation, Kristin Cavallari welcomes Christine Thompson—executive advisor, spiritual strategist, and former aspiring intelligence operative. Together, they dive into Christine’s unique approach, blending business strategy, energy work, neuroscience, and mysticism to help high-powered leaders and visionaries realize their fullest selves. The discussion journeys through Christine’s winding career path, her intimate experiences with plant medicine (psilocybin/mushrooms), the lessons of chaos and transformation, and practical wisdom for anyone exploring higher consciousness and personal alignment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Christine Thompson’s Evolving Career and Identity

The Work Defined:

• Christine describes herself as a “business strategist in the human condition,” integrating business strategy, psychology, neuroscience, and what she calls “modern mysticism.”
• Her clients are influential individuals facing turbulence, seeking optimization, or exploring legacy and visionary impact.
• “It's combining business strategy, who we are as human beings, and how to understand ourselves more deeply so that we can do what we're meant to do... with joy and fulfillment and impact and influence.” – Christine (02:00)

Career Path:

• Christine considered a CIA career in college, trained in counterintelligence and hostage negotiation, but chose authenticity over subterfuge:
  • “I realized...you have to pretend to be who you’re not in order to be good at it. And...at what point do I lose myself?” (09:20)
• Transitioned from management consulting into high-level business, ultimately becoming SVP of a multi-billion dollar family office by 25, working behind the scenes in ventures like Formula E.

Skillset:

• Deep training in diverse modalities: energy alchemy (apprenticed in India), Amadeus healing (Ecuador), negotiation, multiple languages, and cross-cultural immersion.

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2. Tools and Approaches for Transformation

Energy Work & Nontraditional Modalities:

• Christine references her apprenticeship in energy alchemy and "old world technologies," blending them with modern psychology and neuroscience.
• She stresses the need for customization: “It's a very specific, unique expression that each person has.” (02:10)

Plant Medicine:

• Offers plant medicine (notably psilocybin) only to clients “willing to let go of what you think you've known” and “renegotiate how you've perceived yourself.” (04:27)

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3. The Path to and Through Plant Medicine

Readiness & Guidance:

• On deciding who is a candidate: “Do you have the ability to let go of what you think you've known? …to redefine who you are fundamentally?” (04:27)
• Cautions against seeking an “easy button” to fix trauma with plant medicine:
  • “If you find yourself believing it's an easy button, I would hold off.” (21:57)
• Urges thorough preparation and sometimes a trauma-informed guide: “Without the skill set… entering that space… can exacerbate some of the issues…” (22:21)

Should You Journey Alone?

• While some have profound solo experiences, Christine generally recommends a guide for those with trauma or deep intentions:
  • “If someone has a specific intention and they believe they're gonna be facing off with some difficult things, I do think it's a good idea to have a guide.” (23:36)
• Psilocybin, in her method, is described as gentle—building gradually, often with loving, awe-inspiring experiences.

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4. The Spiritual Experience — Letting Go, Lessons, and Awe

Facing the Unknown:

• The greatest transformation comes from surrendering control and embracing the unknown, a theme driven home by a physical moment in the session (a camera falls):
  • “Embracing the lack of ability to control is actually the portal to the magic... True transformation can't be anticipated.” (35:00)

Common Messages from Mushroom Journeys:

• “Everything is connected.”
• “Everything comes from love.”
• “Awe is healing to the human nervous system... a full engagement with the present moment.” (42:05)
• “The experience of awe... instantly eliminates depression, anxiety, fear in the moment of now.” (42:31)

Integration is Key:

• Powerful journeys must be integrated back into daily life to be transformative:
  • “You don’t have these experiences just for it to exist in a silo... How are we practicing these themes?" (43:00)

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5. Other Transformational Practices and Wisdom

Facing Darkness:

• Joy and fulfillment are built on a willingness to face grief, pain, and the “darkness of the cave”—literally and metaphorically (Christine spent four days in a pitch-black cave).
• “If you try and numb the pain, you are also equally numbing your capacity for joy.” (46:31)

Everyday Practices:

• Journaling (Morning Pages from The Artist’s Way), meditation (using Waking Up app by Sam Harris), and especially daily gratitude.
• Meditation redefined: “The point of meditation is to come back to your center 10,000 times in five minutes... you're never an expert... always a practitioner.” (55:23)
• Gratitude and reframing challenges: “What if I knew this was medicine? … How is this helping me become the version of myself that I’ve dreamed about?” (57:44)

Dealing with Triggers & Alignment:

• Rather than resisting triggers or chaos, Christine uses them as opportunities for self-growth and alignment.
• Making decisions from alignment: “Does it bring you closer to yourself or farther from yourself?” (65:38)
• In relationships, prioritize integrity and growth over short-term desire: “Short-term bliss for long-term fallout.” (70:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On letting go of control:
  "You have to come into a positive way of seeing, letting go of control and letting go of the fact of needing to know. So embracing the unknown... is actually the portal to the magic." – Christine (35:00)

• On facing discomfort in journeying:
  “If you can trust and know that this is for you. This is your medicine. It is your job to figure out how and why.” – Christine (26:05)

• On integrating psychedelic insights:
  "You don’t have these experiences just for it to exist in a silo. They are meant to bridge back to our daily life.” – Christine (43:00)

• On alignment:
  "Does it bring you closer to yourself or farther from yourself?" – Christine (65:38)

• On what to take into life on Earth:
  “You can trust yourself. Anything that is happening in your life, you can trust that this is part of your evolution.” – Christine (61:25)

• On chaos:
  “What if we knew that chaos is an initiator of perspective... that wouldn't be possible without the unexpected?” – Christine (74:01)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:23: Christine defines her unique work as a “business strategist in the human condition.”
• 04:17: Differentiating tools used with clients; how plant medicine is selected.
• 05:34: Christine’s near-path into the CIA, counterintelligence, and language training.
• 12:08: Rise to SVP of a multi-billion dollar family office, Formula E, and learning energy dynamics.
• 15:34: On right timing for plant medicine and entering a state of willingness.
• 21:57: Cautioning on plant medicine for trauma—“it’s not an easy button.”
• 23:36: Should psilocybin be done alone or guided?
• 27:05: Christine describes her first psilocybin experience and its emotional impact.
• 35:00: Transformational lesson: embracing the unknown.
• 42:05: “Awe is healing to the human nervous system”; key lessons of psilocybin.
• 46:31: “If you try and numb the pain, you are also equally numbing your capacity for joy.”
• 55:23: Meditation is about returning to center—"never an expert... always a practitioner."
• 65:38: Advice on alignment—“Does it bring you closer to yourself or farther from yourself?”
• 74:01: The value of chaos as an engine for growth; reference to her upcoming book, Alchemy of Chaos.
• 75:20: Book pre-order info and upcoming website/social channels.

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Final Thoughts and Takeaways

• Personal evolution isn’t linear—embracing chaos, allowing mystery, and letting go can be portals to profound growth.
• Plant medicine can be a transformative tool, but the real magic is in the integration and openness, not the substance alone.
• Self-trust, honest alignment with one’s inner voice, and practices like journaling, meditation, and gratitude are foundational.
• “You can trust yourself. Everything is happening as part of your evolution.” (61:25)

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Where to Find Christine Thompson & Her Book

• Book: Alchemy of Chaos, pre-order available on Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble (Release date: April 7, 2026)
• Website: atlasoforion.com (Coming soon)
• Instagram: @christinethompson (She’ll be posting more soon!)

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Episode packed with vulnerability, wisdom, and inspiration — a must-listen (or read!) for those on the path of self-discovery, transformation, or spiritual awakening.

Transcript

[A]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[B]

This is, let's be honest with Kristen Cavallari, a podcast all about getting real and open on everything from sex, relationships, reality tv, wellness, family, and so much more. And just a fair warning, there will probably be some oversharing. Oh, today is gonna be a fun episode and one that I've really been looking forward to for months. She is a friend, but she is also one of the most incredible women I've ever met. Christine Thompson. She is a sought after executive advisor to visionary leaders and power brokers in business, entertainment and culture. Christine explores an unconventional approach to leadership that utilizes chaos, both internal and external, as a tool to support growth, expand perspective, and hone mastery. I think you guys are going to have a lot of takeaway today. Enjoy. I am so excited that you're here. This has been months in the making.

[A]

Months.

[B]

Months. And I have a feeling this is probably going to be one of my favorite conversations that I've had on the podcast. So, Christine, welcome.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

So I want to start by. I want you to explain in your own words what your job is, because I have my idea in my head, but I want to hear it from you.

[A]

It is a really great question, Kristen, because I feel like. I feel like I give a different answer every time someone asks me this, because it is a continually evolving thing. I identify as a business strategist in the human condition. So it's. It's combining business strategy, who we are as human beings, and how to understand ourselves more deeply so that we can do what we're meant to do in the world and the biggest way possible, and to do it with joy and fulfillment and impact and influence. And so what my work is identifying the architecture of that for each individual person, because it's a very specific, unique expression that each person has. Using psychology to do that, using neuroscience to do that. On my website, it says modern mysticism. Oh, who even knows what I'm talking about? Because I'm actually referencing hundreds of modalities with those two. Two small words.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

But it just gives me a little bit of latitude to think very differently about this work than most of my peers.

[B]

Okay, so you definitely explained it way better than I ever could have. So when people come to you, is it because they're in a place of turbulence and they need better direction, or are people coming to you to optimize where they're at? Who are your clients and who's coming to you?

[A]

It's both. There are, I like to say I work with People with a lot of energy around them. So whether that's energy of having influence, energy of having a lot of wealth, energy of having a leadership position in a company, I work with a lot of CEOs, I work with public figures, I work with family offices. And people come to me in all different kinds of situations. Yes, there are absolutely the moments of turbulence where it feels like someone's at the end of their rope and they just need to try something a little bit more outside of the box and unconventional than they would have normally. So I love those because I get the chance to work with people who maybe wouldn't have chosen to do this level of depth work through the lens of their life, except in this instance, that they're like, I just. I have no. I have nothing else to try. Might as well. And a lot of really amazing transformation happens with those people. But I also work with people who are just at the top of their game and really wanting to explore their. Their visionary capacity and wanting to explore their legacy and, as I said, their impact and influence. And so bringing fluency to who they are and understanding the depth approach of everything that they want to create and have created thus far and how it all connects together in this really cool map just allows them to speak into existence, into action on what that is for them in a more effective way.

[B]

I love it. So what are some of the tools that you use for all of your clients? I know plant medicine is one of them.

[A]

Plant medicine is one of them for a certain subset. Not everybody. Not everybody.

[B]

How do you determine who that is good for and who it's not?

[A]

I like to have a qualifier. Well, several qualifiers. So I think the journey to deciding whether or not a plant medicine experience is right for you is do you have the ability to let go of what you think you've known? Do you have the ability to reimagine and rethink every certainty you've ever had? Wow. Do you have the capacity to, like, redefine who you are fundamentally based on new information that you haven't been aware of before?

[B]

Wow. Okay. Okay. So if someone is not doing plant medicine, what are some of the tools that you're gonna use with them?

[A]

There's a lot. I've. I've trained in a lot of very interesting modalities. There's been. I've been an apprentice with this woman who's been doing energy Alchemy for 50 years in India and across all of these old world technologies. I've trained in something called Amadeus in Ecuador. I have trained in counterintelligence and hostage negotiation. Thought I was going to go into the CIA for a moment. Yes. For a small moment.

[B]

When was that?

[A]

In college.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yes. One of my professors was part of the intelligence community. It happened kind of like. Have you ever seen the movie the Recruit?

[B]

I don't know that I have, actually.

[A]

Okay. Well, it's like a CIA movie. And. And it's. You know, it happens on college campuses where there's professors that are kind of low key, part of that community, and they identify people who might make good operatives.

[B]

You would have been good in the CIA.

[A]

Right. And that's kind of what the conversation. No one would have seen it coming.

[B]

No one.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Another life.

[A]

And did you know that there's a difference between a CIA agent and an operative?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't know a whole lot about it.

[A]

Very, very quick caveat, because I know that's not our topic conversation, but an agent is actually not someone who works with the US Government who is a US Citizen.

[B]

If you're.

[A]

If you're a CIA agent, you are not a US citizen.

[B]

Did not know that.

[A]

And so you're an operative. Wow. An operative works for the US Government. An agent is actually usually someone that's a foreign national who the operative is asking to work with them, to supply them information, or did not know that.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So how far down that road did you get? Not.

[A]

Not very far. Not very far. A lot of people in my life are convinced that I'm still in the CIA.

[B]

I can see it, actually.

[A]

I had a wild decade of traveling the world, and people that even know me very well are like, christine, you can tell me now.

[B]

That is funny.

[A]

Can you just admit it now? You know? But no, I really didn't. I had this professor and I did a research practicum for several years, and we looked at hash negotiation scenari and tried to determine if we could predict the outcome of a hostage negotiation situation based on the way someone was speaking.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And then, therefore, the agents in the field, if they could have indicators and information on likely outcomes, they could approach the conversation differently. Wow. And then. And then I. I mean, I learned. I lived in the Middle east and I learned Arabic. I learned Mandarin. I lived in Montreal and learned French. I lived in Ecuador and learned Spanish. I mean, it was like a. I.

[B]

Mean, you're the most impressive woman.

[A]

I.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

I feel languages came easy because I played piano. I. It wasn't. It didn't feel.

[B]

Meanwhile, I'm doing Rosetta Stone, trying to learn Italian. Right. Now. And I just failed my first test.

[A]

Why are you learning Italian? Tell me everything to do. I'm.

[B]

I deleted Tick tock a few months ago. I was like, I need to do things that are better for my brain. So I got Rosetta Stone, but I thought I was killing it. And then I had the first quiz and I failed miserably.

[A]

Oh no.

[B]

Multiple times. So I was like, okay, I suck. But now I'm determined to actually learn it so that I can speak it now. Now that I failed, I'm like, okay, that's what I needed to like, light a little fire under my ass. Anyways, okay, wait, so how did you then get into what you do today?

[A]

It was. I like to joke that it kind of felt like I was in a maze. I didn't know that I was in a maze, but I was in a maze. I didn't have this grand plan. I think that it's actually a nod to, you do not have to have a 10 point plan about how your life needs to go in order to reach your goals. I think that goals are reached more on a feeling than an operation, if that makes sense. Because I knew that I wanted to have a career where I was interacting with people that I found incredibly fascinating. And I knew that I wanted to talk about ideas that really lit me up. I knew that I wanted to travel. And so. And there are a few other things. Like I wanted real connection in the world and I wanted a pathway to have my career inspire me to discover myself as I went. And then it was kind of the symbiotic relationship. The more that I delved into my own self and what lit me up and drove me and fascinated me, the better I would then become at whatever my career was, is the way I was thinking. And I didn't know that if that even existed, but I wanted it to. So I then just made it exist, essentially.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

But I didn't realize that's what I was doing. So I decided not to go into intelligence by the end of undergrad like I was. I was clear on that by the end of undergrad. Because I realized that this career is a very particular one and you have to pretend to be who you're not in order to be good at it. And the thought occurred to me, just wait. If I'm pretending to be who I'm not for the majority of the time, and there are very few people that know who I really am, at what point do I lose myself? And I really like myself, I've worked really hard to know and love myself. So I don't wanna have a career that is the opposite of that. So I went to a post grad program at Vanderbilt. Shout out Vanderbilt.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that's how you got here?

[A]

Well, I was born here.

[B]

Oh, that's.

[A]

Born in Nashville. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. My grandfather, my grandparents met at Vanderbilt. Oh, wow. But yeah, I decided to just go full on into business strategy. And I, I mean, it was mainly just a generalization of, okay, I want to be successful in the world. And I think business has something to do with that. Right. You know, one plus one equals two. And then it was like a connect the dots.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I didn't know the picture that I was forming. I just went to the next dot of what really felt intriguing to me. And so I moved to Southern California actually for my first job that I thought was management consulting. It was actually not management consulting. It was more of a sales job. But it got me to Southern California where I was like, I live in a vacation, y'. All. I can drive to the beach after work and watch the sunset over the ocean. Because I grew up, I went to the beach once a year.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it was a huge deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, but overall, I just kept asking questions about that set, that set of circumstances that I knew I wanted in my daily life. So I was kind of thinking outside of job description and more of what is the experience of the job that I want. And so I eventually met this guy over dinner. He was the. I was with my friend and she had just started dating this new guy and he was his best friend. And we started talking. And I didn't know it at the time, but he was the chief investment officer for a billionaire out of Spain and London. And he was kind of covertly interviewing me for months and months. Again, didn't realize, but he eventually offered me this job and I became senior vice president of this billion dollar family office.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I was 25. Wow. 25, 26, 27, 28. We created Formula E, the electric version of F1. Oh my God.

[B]

You know, like we were like doing.

[A]

All these insane networking things. Like Leonardo DiCaprio came on, started a team. Richard Branson started a team. We had China racing, we had Jaguar. We had. You know, it was really. And it still exists today.

[B]

It's really so cool. Yeah.

[A]

So it was all about, what? What can we create from nothing? How can we create equity from an idea? How can we create bottom line value from relationships without having to write more Checks can the value of relationships and the substance of what we're talking about and creating together in a way that really inspires people. And then they go and they put energy into that. How is that a real thing? Because that's not something we're taught in business school. And so the chief investment officer and I, we had the best time just playing with this form of kind of energy dynamics in these really high impact rooms. I mean, a lot of billionaires, a lot of people whose names everyone knows that we were in these rooms with, having these conversations with. I mean, I was watching decisions being made about how countries were run.

[B]

That is wild.

[A]

In a boardroom.

[B]

That is wild.

[A]

Yeah. And so I kind of got a behind the scenes look at what was really going on and how the kind of thinking it takes to vision and create possibility beyond what seems reasonable. And I started to try and make sense of that again because I was kind of drinking from a fire hose and I was here and I had this skillset that I didn't realize until much later, which is hilarious. The skillset of kind of psychologically analyzing behaviors, body language, motivations, all of this stuff. So I was watching deeply how this was all happening. So then I had the skill set, and then I had this very unique set of experiences. And I took all of that and started my own company in 2015.

[B]

That is amazing. What a cool experience, too. So did you just start networking then? And then you could find some of these people and start just. That's where you started. And it just has grown and grown.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then when did you come back to Tennessee?

[A]

20. So I. I like to say I moved my stuff back in 2012, but then I was pretty much just on an airplane until 2015 when I got pregnant.

[B]

Yeah, okay. Yeah.

[A]

And then I was pretty much grounded. You're not going anywhere. The baby. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Well, so that's how we know each other is through our social circle. We have a lot of the same friends. And we were supposed to do a journey, a group of us.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And every time the date would approach, I couldn't do it for some reason. I've actually talked about this on the podcast and I think it was after the third time, I finally was like, you know what? Maybe this isn't the season of life for me to do plant medicine. And I'm gonna let everyone else do it. Ended up just being one of our friends and which is great cause she needed to have her own experience. But when it comes to plant medicine, and we've talked about this Because I am still really interested in doing a psilocybin journey. I think I talked about this on the podcast like two weeks ago. But how do you know when it's the right time in your life to experiment with psilocybin or any plant medicine for that matter?

[A]

So plant medicines, regardless of which one we're talking about, I think they're all in a category of enabling your mind to access more of what is real. This is my opinion. This is my opinion. I think that we have to live these human lives with a certain filter on in order to function in the three dimensional realms. And when you find yourself asking a question you can't quite put your finger on and don't feel like you need to clarify the question of the intention, but when you realize that there's probably something more to all of this, whatever that means for you, and you want to explore what that is, that probably means you're in a place to a place of willingness. A place of willingness to re negotiate how you've perceived yourself in your life up until that point.

[B]

Wow. All right guys, it is that time. I'm excited to talk to you about a new one today and that is K18. If you are not familiar with K18, then you're definitely going to want to listen up. I've told you guys over the years that I had a ton of breakage in my hair a few years ago and it's really been a journey to get back to a great place. And one of the things that I've been using periodically on my hair is K18. Also, what if I told you that you could bleach or color your hair without damage? With K18 you can have soft, strong, bouncy hair and keep going to the salon. K18 leave in molecular repair. Hair mask is a deep damage fix. It's not just a cover up. And that's what I've been using to really get my hair back into a great place. It is a patented K18 peptide which repairs hair on the molecular layer level. So no matter what you do to your hair, whether it be color or just styling or maybe it's even just stress, well, K18 will be there to help fix the damage. You guys can shop the K18 mask at Sephora or you can get 10 off your first purchase with code [e-mail]. That's code Kristen King at K118HAIR.com let's chat Skims guys. Today I specifically want to talk to you about their pajamas. I'm all about being as cozy as possible while sleeping. And I do think the older I get, the quality of sleep is so important. And so that's part of it, being comfortable, making sure you're not too hot. And with that depends on what you're wearing to bed. Well, skin Skims has incredible pajamas, guys. I feel like I sleep better when I feel good in the fabrics that I'm wearing. I just got a really cute little sleep set from Skims. The fabric really is so comfortable and it's almost like you're wearing nothing. Also, they have the cutest holiday pajamas too. So if you're looking for the whole family or just yourself, definitely go check that out as well. So shop my favorite [e-mail] and after you place your order, be sure to let them know that I sent you. So select podcast in the survey and be sure to select my show, let's be Honest in the dropdown menu that follows. And if you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims holiday shop is now [e-mail] let's chat colostrum. Specifically, I'm excited to talk to you guys about armor. We live in an environment our biology was just never designed for. There's EMFs, artificial light, seed oils, microplastics, endocrine disruptors, modern stressors. I mean, the list goes on and on. And these assaults can disrupt your signals. Your body relies on negatively impacting gut, immune, and overall health. Armor Colostrum works at the cellular level to bolster your health from within. Colostrum is nature's first whole food with over 400 bioactive nutrients that fortify gut health, strength and immune health, fuel performance and more, paving the way for your best health and vitality. So if you're ready to reclaim your extraordinary well, then you're going to need to try Colostrum. I've told you guys a million times, but I really do love Colostrum. In addition to everything I just said, I also feel like it really ignites your metabolism. I think it helps with bloating and just gut health overall. And it really does make a difference if you're active in the gym working out for performance and recovery. So check it out if you have not. And I've worked out a special deal for my audience. You can receive 30% off your first subscription order. Go to armor.comhonest or enter honest to get 30% off your first subscription Order. That's armra.com honest. Okay, so curiosity. What about if someone. Because I know it's used for Trauma. Right. Like it's, it's used a lot for helping people when they're going through something. Does it need to be coupled with curiosity? Or could it just be you have trauma from your childhood, let's say, and you've done talk therapy, it's only done so much and now you just want to get deeper and deeper, or does that scare you if it's just from a trauma standpoint?

[A]

Yeah. I'm back and forth on this one. I know that the FDA is doing a lot of work here and there's a lot of really exciting stuff happening with, you know, official channels for, for these experiences in medicines. And I think that there's a place for all of it with someone who has trauma. It really depends on the medicine that you're using. It depends on the practitioner that you're going to be working with. Are they trauma informed? And here's the real question, I think, because those are logistics and kind of more ops. But if you find yourself believing it's an easy button, I would hold off.

[B]

Okay, I like that a lot.

[A]

Yep. It's not an easy button. In fact, if someone goes into an experience like that, like that, without the skill set that I do believe has to be cultivated before you enter that space, it can exacerbate, it can exacerbate some of the issues that make that trauma a hard day to day thing to live with.

[B]

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. And I know for you, you do a lot of work leading up to this kind of stuff with clients or friends or whoever, or for your own personal. Yeah, and that is very important. And so that was a question. I want to talk about psilocybin specifically only because it's on my mind and I want to, but is that something that someone should do, could do by themselves or should they always have like a quote unquote trained guide for something like that?

[A]

So I've been working with psilocybin for almost a decade now, which is wild because it was so. I would not breathe a word of this to anyone for years because it felt so. I mean, I am a rule follower. I do all of the things by the book, you know what I mean? I do not step outside the lines in those conventional ways. I step outside the lines in how I think about the world and how I think about things, but not in that way. And so I think that there are so many people who have absolutely done a solo journey and it has been fantastic for them. And I mean, even I'm thinking of some of the leaders in the field who got their start because they were in the woods in 79.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And, you know, had a transcendent experience that changed the way they thought about themselves in the world. And then they formed a career path or a life path from that place. And they point to that as being the nexus. You know, I think that if someone has a specific intention and they believe that they're gonna be facing off with some difficult things, I do think it's a good idea to have a guide. I have been privy to situations, been in situations where people have said, if I did not have a guide for that, it would have been a very different outcome. You know, I think in this world, especially as this concept has been more.

[B]

What is that word? Popularized.

[A]

Popularized. There have been kind of communities of people going into this. Not blind, but thinking that it's something that it's not. And that can lead to outcomes that are not great.

[B]

Okay, so when you say an outcome that's not great, does that mean, like, someone loses their mind, goes a little crazy? Like, what does that exactly mean?

[A]

Well, I'm thinking there are some plant medicines that are more prone to those outcomes than ayahuasca. Yeah, that's more of an ayahuasca type experience.

[B]

Stronger.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Maybe stronger is not the right word.

[A]

Just different approach. Like, ayahuasca, to me, it takes in order for you to learn the lesson. It will remove all sense of stability. It will remove all remembrance of a concept called love. It will extract that so that you have to find your own center.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, but it can also do the opposite. It can also be the most profound, loving. It is. And the thing about plant medicines and whether we're talking about. You know, all of these fall into a category called entheogens, which just means. And that can be a T. Like, we're not necessarily talking about psychoactive substances here, but the common thread, I think, is that you receive what you most need. Can you do the work necessary to be the version of yourself in the moment that you are having an experience? Whether it's the most profound, incredible, loving, everything makes sense in a way that it never has before type of experience, or, holy shit, what the hell have I done?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. That in that holy shit moment, if you can trust and know that this is for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is your medicine. It is your job to figure out how and why you will have a very different experience with that. Because you have an openness. You have an expanded capacity to hold the discomfort, to hold the duality of what you think you want versus what you're getting. Because isn't that a metaphor for life?

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

So often the curveball is the thing that we're resisting. And if we just open to it for long enough to get a different perspective, a lot of people will point to that unexpected traumatic curveball as the thing that somehow, some way change them in a way that they wouldn't trade.

[B]

It's so true. Okay, I want to hear about how psilocybin found you, because like you said, you never. You didn't experiment with anything. And so Psylla, how it found you and then what your first experience was.

[A]

Like, ooh, so good. Yes. So I like to almost like, overuse the testament that I had never done any kind of anything, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

Like, I didn't. I don't even really drink alcohol.

[B]

Yeah, I've never seen you drink. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I. Yeah, it's not. It's not my thing. Like, I believed that anything that altered my mind was immediately bad. It was an immediate no. And like, even. Even like seeing someone smoke a cigarette, I was like, oh, you know what I mean? I'm not saying I was judgmental. It just wasn't for me. I was just clear that that wasn't my journ. And even my little brother. My little brother was having experiences with, I mean, just like pot and stuff, like normal things. And I was like, oh, no, he's.

[B]

Gone down the wrong road.

[A]

You know what I mean? But I remember him telling me that he had a mushroom experience, and he was maybe 18 and I was 20, and I was in college making straight A's, doing all the things. And I was like, my brother's a degenerate, you know, completely judging. I was judging him. So all of that to say, very tough cookie over here with all substances. And I had a best friend. I still love this man so much. His name is Jeff. And I felt that he knew me in a way that no one else knew me or understood me. Like, we had this really, really soul level connection from this first moment that we met. We saw each other and it's like we both lit up like sunshines and hugged each other, and it was like, oh, my gosh, you're home. You know, you're one of my homes in this world.

[B]

And he.

[A]

It was my birthday and there were a small crew of us down on 30A and he. One of my friends flew in from New York and he had these chocolates, and I was like, have fun, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

Like, I'll. I guess I'll babysit yet again, as I always do with all of the people doing the things. And Jeff looked at me and he said, christine, it's not what you think. Trust me. You have to trust me.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

And I was like, okay. Like, I don't think that there was any other person on the planet that. That could have gotten me to pop that chocolate in my mouth.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Except for him. And so. And no one prepped me. And here's a testament to, like not having a guide and not having any prep. I mean, I had been doing very deep personal work for a long time.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

But I just remember sitting on this beach and the. The sensation that I even can feel now. I can even feel emotion rise now. And this was almost 10 years. No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is almost 10 years ago is just the sensation of tears streaming down my face with a feeling of. I remember. I remember myself. I remember who I am. I remember why I'm here. I remember my power. I remember my dignity. I remember my integrity. I remember my unlimited capacity to love and receive love. I remember that I'm not from here.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Not to get too woo.

[B]

But hey.

[A]

But hey. And. And so what it did for me is it gave me such an expanded perspective on myself and on this lifetime that I was able to let go of things that I had been holding on to that suddenly didn't matter. Wow. And I was able to engage with myself on a new level that I believe allowed me to come into myself because I immediately had trust for myself that I. It's like I did trust myself to a certain extent, but not like this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This felt like a self trust that was invincible because I knew that everything was in perfect design.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, that gave me chills. So.

[A]

Cause.

[B]

And I've asked you this, I think a thousand times, because for me, trying something new, I think obviously the unknown is what's scary for I would imagine a lot of people that's. I think that's the only piece that scares me. It's not what's gonna come up. It's like none of that. It's just. I don't like being completely out of control. And I've told you my boovo experience, you are completely laid out. Like if the house was burning, I cannot. I cannot move. Like you have to carry me out of here. And so I guess from that perspective, what does psilocybin feel like? Like, are you in control or. I guess I just have like no point of reference. Like I've done mushrooms in my day. But because you're eating, what, like five, six grams? It's a lot. Yeah.

[A]

And I think I gotta get over the hump.

[B]

I'm like, one, like, at most, you know, so. Okay, so explain that to me. Like, what is the actual journey of it? And how do you feel?

[A]

Yeah, I wouldn't say that you feel out of control in the way that I think you mean it. Let me ask you, what do you mean when you say out of control?

[B]

Yeah, I guess so. Like. Okay, my point of reference is bufo. I'm comical.

[A]

You can't walk.

[B]

Like. I can't. No, you can't move. It's all in your head. You can't move. I mean, I've done Molly before and. But that. I still feel like I'm kind of in control. So I don't know. I guess just. I don't know. I guess. Yeah. Those are my only points of reference.

[A]

Well, and you bring up two really interesting themes. I'll come back. I'll come back to the question in just a second. So the unknown is a theme for, I would say most people. Right. Because it's the. If you don't know what it is, how can you know what it's gonna be like? And if you can't know what it's gonna be like, how do you know you're gonna be okay?

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and so we tend to navigate life through a series of trying to know things, predict things, and make things happen that we want to happen because that's what we've decided that we know and that it will be safe and good.

[B]

And I'm a bit of a control fre.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. And. And so then the unknown and controlling the experience or the outcome, those are deeply linked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think in order to have the best kind of experience, you have to let go of both control and the need to know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is why I think the lead up to the experience can be such a profound part of the experience. I often will get. You know, I'll. I'll be sitting with someone who is. Hold on.

[B]

We need that.

[A]

Was that. I mean, energy. Has that ever happened? That's never happened. The camera just fell.

[B]

Does that mean I have to do a journey?

[A]

Yes. Anything is a sign. As we're talking about the unknown and control. Wait, Nothing's ever a coincidence.

[B]

I don't. Yes, we're ready.

[A]

We're doing it. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

To that unknown situation. That was wild. Cool.

[B]

I love shit like that.

[A]

Me too. Especially when you cannot anticipate. Okay. And let's just pause for a moment and capture the magic of what just happened. So just now.

[B]

Yeah. So we're talking about the unknown and letting go of control. And a camera just fell.

[A]

And a camera just fell.

[B]

And I always feel like when things like that happen, it's like confirmation for whatever you're currently saying. Yes, right?

[A]

Yes. Okay. And what is so wild about the reason that was a big deal and we're like, whoa. And it's a sign, and it's a synchronicity, and we're impacted by that is because we didn't predict it.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Yes.

[A]

We didn't know that was gonna happen. That was completely outside of our control. If you had. If I had asked you at the beginning of this, would you prefer if a camera fell down in the middle of our taping?

[B]

I would have said no.

[A]

You would have said no. But guess what? It did.

[B]

And we're okay.

[A]

And not only are we okay, it is profound and meaningful. I like it. Because we didn't know.

[B]

I love.

[A]

And because we couldn't control it.

[B]

Fine, I'll do a psilocybin journey.

[A]

I mean, I have chills because that connects exactly to the essence of what we're saying here.

[B]

Wow. That is very cool. Truly. Wow. I love. I love shit like that. I know. Me too. I don't even remember what we were saying.

[A]

I mean, we were talking about how you have to come into relationship with. You have to come into a positive way of seeing, letting go of control and letting go of the fact of needing to know. So embracing the unknown and embracing the lack of ability to control is actually the portal to the magic. It's the portal to transformation and evolution. Because true transformation can't be anticipated. It's the element of surprise, of delight, of, like, discovery. If you know the thing or you're controlling it, you're not discovering.

[B]

Yeah, that's such a good point.

[A]

Right? And that's true of life, that's true of journeying. That's true of this moment with the camera.

[B]

So my. Yeah, exactly. My BUFO experience, what happened was, it's only 20 minutes, but 20 minutes is not. Time isn't a concept when you're doing this stuff. But I had a couple moments in my journey where I was like, I'm ready for this to be over. And I think that is what scares me about then doing psilocybin. However, when I came out of my BUFO experience, I was like, I get it now. You have to go on the journey, surrender and lean in and go. And then I was like, I want to do it again. I want to do it right now. So I do think having that knowledge, I would carry that with me. Then into psilocybin of like, yes, it's not going to last forever. And then once it's over, you're like, holy shit, I get it. So just lean in.

[A]

Yes, it is a round trip ticket. It's a lean in no matter what. Trust that whatever's coming up is for you no matter what. And if you're having a hard experience and you're like, I want this to be over. My first question if I was sitting with someone in that situation would be, what part of this is uncomfortable?

[B]

That's why the guide is very important.

[A]

It is, because then when you start to name it, then that's almost always going to have a metaphorical or actual application to life itself. And then you get insight that you couldn't get otherwise because you are struggling with something. And so when you can kind of name that, it's kind of. It's vapor, really, because it's imagined. It's. It's. You don't like what you're experiencing because you think it should be different.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What if you knew that this is exactly what you're meant to be experiencing because there is an intelligence behind it? What if you knew that because you're experiencing, you somehow needed it or asked for it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's part of your journey, which is why you then lean in and then you will get it. But in the resistance, it's the continued resistance that you keep yourself from the knowledge.

[B]

So what do you do with someone if they really are resisting and they're having a hard time and they don't want to be doing this? Like, how do you. Besides, like, let's give it a name. How do you coach someone through that?

[A]

It's hard. And I will say that I've sat with many, many, many, many, many people over the years and this is a very rare thing for someone to really be stuck in. I need this to be over right now.

[B]

Well, that's good.

[A]

Yeah, it's good.

[B]

Does it happen initially?

[A]

I don't know if it's because of.

[B]

How I hold this. It's all because of you.

[A]

No. I really do think that a lot of these medicines are very gentle and loving.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

You know, baseline does it.

[B]

I think even our friend, the first 45 minutes or so, there's like a moment of resistance, but then you're able to push through. Is that more common or Even that's not.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, it is. Because the journey kind of. It goes up a little bit, and then it dips you back into normalcy, and then it goes up a little more, and then it dips you back.

[B]

To where you were.

[A]

So it's very much at least the medicines that I like to work with.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's not just gonna blast you in.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

It's a. Like, first, you'll be like, wait, do I hear a bird? And is that the most gorgeous thing I've ever heard in my entire life? Is there something extra funny about that?

[B]

Le.

[A]

And has the sky ever been this blue?

[B]

I love that.

[A]

You know, and so you're just kind of. You're in it, and you're like, whoa, this is cool. And then. And then. And you'll be like, wait, actually, the sky is normal, and that's a normal bird. Okay. Anyway, we're gonna continue talking, and then it'll kind of take you up, go up and back down. And then before you know it, you are in the center of the Infinity Vortex. Understanding the full nature of reality would.

[B]

I love this. Okay, so it's baby steps.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it.

[A]

Baby steps.

[B]

You.

[A]

It's loving. I love. Yes. Yes.

[B]

I love that. Okay, great. Okay, so you said you've had your own personal experience experiences with it. You've also witnessed countless experiences with it. Are there any messages that come through in every single session?

[A]

Everything is connected. We are all a part of the same thing. A lot of people define thing in a very different way. So I'm using that word on purpose, not because I don't want to be precise with my vocabulary, but because it's a very unique interpretation depending on the person in the situation. And not only we being all of us humans on this floating rock in the middle of space are all connected. But we are connected to the trees. We are connected to anything with a consciousness or an awareness or life. Life itself is so much more than we give it credit for. That's a theme. Another theme that comes up is everything comes from love. This happens a lot for people, and I think it's a really profound thing. You don't have to be religious. I mean, I've sat with atheists. I've sat with Christians. I've sat with Buddhists. I've sat with just medicine, spiritualists.

[B]

I've sat with a lot of different people.

[A]

And however you define love, I think is how all religions and all organized spiritual traditions of all types have been trying to put words around. But it's really hard to put words around the ineffable. And so these experiences give you an experience. Sorry, I'm saying experience so much of the ineffable and it's inherently impossible to describe. That's what makes it that. So that's the theme of. It's awe. It's you experience, I think a very, very pure form of awe. And I once went to a program, because I'm always a student and I love learning. And there was this program that I found called Wonder and Narrative Science and Contemplation. So looking at narrative of Wonder and Awe, science and contemplation with all of these things, and the teacher, the professor was a professor at Berkeley, still is. And he was saying, I didn't know that plant medicines were going to come up in this.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

I went into it just like it was going to be a normal course. And he started talking about psychedelics. And he said that the science that they're discovering is the healing qualities that people experience in the presence of these compounds isn't because of the chemical makeup of the compound. It's actually because awe is healing to the human nervous system.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Because what it is, it's a full engagement with the present moment. And when you're fully engaged with the present moment, depression doesn't exist, anxiety doesn't exist. Wow. Fear doesn't exist. And all of these things that plague us are instantly eliminated in the moment of now.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And that is what a lot of these medicines do, especially psilocybin.

[B]

And then people can take that and bring it into their everyday lives.

[A]

And that is the key, what you just said. And I think that in the rapid popularization of this, I think that that is being missed, that you don't have these experiences just for it to exist in a silo. They, they, they are meant to bridge back to our daily life. And how are we practicing these themes of what if I knew that everything came from love? What if I knew that everything was connected? What if I knew that I can trust myself and I can trust life? What if I knew that letting go is actually the best thing? What if I knew that having control is an illusion and attempting to control things is actually what's hurting me?

[B]

Right.

[A]

What if I knew, you know, like all of these things. If you think about what it's like to live life in that way, you're gonna have a much better experience.

[B]

Yeah, no kidding.

[A]

You're gonna have a much happier life in general, I think. And the more happiness and joy and fulfillment you have, the more of a positive impact you're gonna have on everyone and everything.

[B]

I agree. And I think it's like a ripple effect, like. Cause it's all energy, right? So if you. Your light and love and you are practicing gratitude and you've got joy, it does touch the people around you. And I think then the more people that do it. My hypnotherapist actually explained this to me. But it is like a ripple effect. It is like if you were looking at the United States, let us say at night, and a light goes on over here and then a light goes on over and all the lights just start turning on, which I love. And the other thing too about hypnotherapy is I have had a lot of the same messages as people get from psilocybin, how everything is connected, everything is about love. And I. So I do think it's interesting that there are different paths you can take to get to the same destination. It's not like you have to do plant medicine. You know, you can, you can do hypnotherapy or. I'm sure there's other things too. But one thing I do love so much about you is that you are not afraid to get in there and face it. I mean, you even went in a cave for a pitch black cave for four, four days right by yourself self. And I just think it's so cool that you're not afraid to just get in there. What are some of the other things that you do in your daily life or some of the bigger things that you do to practice this spirituality and you just becoming or staying the best version of yourself?

[A]

Yes. I love that you brought this in. And it's like you read my mind because we were talking about light and love and joy and fulfillment and peace. And it's like, okay. And we would be remiss to not mention that the way to get there is to face what you think you don't wanna see.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

To fully engage with the darkness of the cave, metaphorically, or actually to fully engage with your unfelt grief. To fully engage with what you thought you didn't want your life to include or involve. And to see who you have become in the midst of that. And to see that that too is a necessary part of the journey, you know, and so that is part of the answer to that question. It's a willingness to continue to go there because otherwise we're missing half of the completeness of what a human life is like. We can't. I genuinely believe and I'VE found this to be true not only in my own life, but a lot of people that I've worked with. You can't have peace and joy without the grief and the pain. Yeah, if you try and numb the pain, you are also equally numbing your capacity for joy.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And that's why these, these experiences, whether it's a plant medicine journey or hypnotherapy, or working with an excellent practitioner that helps you understand yourself. It really is all about a deeper engagement and ability to not judge what you are experiencing and what has happened. And that makes you a more compelling full, that gives you a fullness because you're not denying yourself, you're not denying part of your life just because you thought you don't like it.

[B]

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No one does resale like the Real Real and no one makes the holidays shine brighter than the Real real. And now get 25 off your first purchase when you go to therealreal.comhonest. that's realreal.comhonest to get 25 off. Start shopping [e-mail] honest. Let's chat about Foria Forea is here to help you have really good sex and more of it. The kind that makes you feel nourished, juicy and fully alive. They make life changing all natural organic formulas for your most intimate needs like the Awaken Arousal Oil. So imagine the best orgasm or sex you've ever had. Okay, now imagine that it could be even better with products that were designed to naturally enhance sexual pleasure and give you access to bigger and better orgasms. And best of all, Awaken just turns yawn. They also have the Pleasure Set. So in addition to Awaken Arousal Oil, the Pleasure Set has all three of four as best selling intimacy products. The Awaken Arousal Oil, Sex Oil and Intimacy Melts. Since it is gift giving season, I do feel like Forea is a great gift for your partner or even your friends. Or hey, honestly just get it for yourself because it's that great. So yes, you have my permission to try this. I fully endorse you to go ahead and treat yourself or your partner. Experience your juiciest and deepest essential experience with a bottle of Foria. Foria is offering a special deal for my listeners. Get 20% off your first order by visiting foria wellness.com honest or use code honest at checkout. That's F O r I a wellness.com forward/honest. For 20% off your first order order, I recommend trying Awaken or their Pleasure Set with all three of their best sellers. You will thank me later, Which I think a lot of people do, especially from childhood. People are ashamed of whatever happened or you just keep pushing it down and pushing it down. But to your point, like I know, even just with my own personal journey, I wasn't able to get to where I am today until I really dealt with the stuff from my childhood. Even though I thought I was in therapy my whole life and I thought I had dealt with was hypnotherapy. That changed everything for me. And hypnotherapy is a journey in itself. My guide, Kristen Eichel, she's actually coming on the podcast too. But she takes you on a journey and she gets you to these places from your childhood and you work through it. I mean, it is like you face it head on. But I thought I was happy and I thought I was all the things. But until I dealt with all of that, I only knew what I knew. I didn't know I could actually be this comfortable in my skin and this happy and content.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Until dealing with it.

[A]

See, that's what a profound testament to the validity of what we're saying is that life can only have. It's like you're painting with three colors and then you open the full crayon box that, yes, includes some blacks and some blues and some dark greens, but it also has a yellow that you've never used before and all of that. And then you can paint a much more interesting tapestry.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Do you journal or meditate or you practice gratitude? Like what are the little things that you. Well, maybe not little, but what are the things you do in your daily life to help you?

[A]

I go in phases with different practices. I have been such a fan of journaling, especially stream of consciousness journaling. I love the artist's way.

[B]

Oh, I don't know this.

[A]

Oh, I want this. It's great. It's a 12 week and I, I didn't do it at first because my friend who is fully an artist and I consider myself a business person, right. And she was like, christine, you have to do this artist way thing. I was like, ally, no, that's cute. I'm not the artist. You're the artist. I love that for you. And then somebody that I. It was years later and somebody else mentioned it in one of these, like big four forums that I was in. And I was like, wait, is that the thing that Ali told you? And then I did it and it changed my world. And it involves daily journaling. It's called Morning pages. And you journal stream of consciousness for three pages every single day, no matter what.

[B]

Wow. Three pages.

[A]

Three pages.

[B]

Which I know it sounds like a lot, but probably once you're going, it just comes, right? It.

[A]

Sometimes it does. And sometimes, in my artist's way, I've filled an entire page of. This is the stupidest thing I've ever done. Why am I doing this? I don't know what to say. I hate this. You know what I mean? Like, I don't. Nothing's happening. But what it does is it puts you in relationship with yourself. Same thing. I've gone in phases of meditation. I love Adam Grant's Waking up app.

[B]

I don't know this either.

[A]

It's an app and it's great. He has a 21 day intro to meditation and I found it to be very helpful, especially if you're someone that has had a hard time getting into meditation. He has a really great objective approach that feels robust and like, okay, I can understand what he's saying. And this isn't too woo woo, this isn't too fluffy. This isn't too, like, just sit and clear your mind. Because actually that's not the point of meditation. The point of meditation is not to clear your mind. The point of meditation is to come back to your center 10,000 times in five minutes. Oh, and that is what it is to meditate.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

You're training your mind to catch itself when it's wandering, when it's pontificating about something unhelpful, when it's not in the present moment. And you bring it back. And you bring it back. And that's why meditation is a practice. You're never an expert of meditation. You're always a practitioner.

[B]

I've never heard anyone explain it like that. I always, for the longest time and same thing with hypnotherapy. It changed my meditation practice. But before that I always thought it was. You want your mind to be blank.

[A]

No.

[B]

And I'm like, that's so fucking hard.

[A]

It's so. It's impossible, actually.

[B]

Yeah, it's really hard.

[A]

It's impossible. And like there are people that can access that, like, universal bliss space only from meditation. But it's because they've practiced a hundred thousand trillion reps of bringing their mind back from wandering to the center.

[B]

Right. Cause I used to get so mad at myself every time my mind would wander. Yes.

[A]

And this is why so many people give up on meditation, because they're like, I can't do it. I'm bad at it because my mind won't stay clear. Right. No one's mind stays clear.

[B]

Okay. That makes me feel better.

[A]

Yeah. It's about noticing that your mind isn't clear.

[B]

Okay. Right.

[A]

And that's the win.

[B]

Right. Well, Right.

[A]

Not the failure.

[B]

Right, right, right. Exactly. I also like doing visualization sometime. Meditation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even if it's like a, you know, shimmery golden light coming through your head and through the earth and then back into you or whatever it is. But that's. I think that's an easier way to start anyways. Because you have a focal point.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

For your mind. It is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, meditation is hard. And you. I'm assuming you practice gratitude.

[A]

Oh, every day. Yeah. This is actually, I think, the most relevant practice in my life as it exists today, is anytime I feel a feeling of fear or anxiety or, oh, no, not again, or whatever that is I have trained myself to pretty immediately. Sometimes it takes me 30 seconds, sometimes it takes me 30 minutes. And there are some times where it takes me some days. But I've trained myself to ask the question, what if I knew this was medicine? Oh, what if I knew this was for me? How is this very inconvenient, annoying, horrible thing. Fill in the blank. How is this helping me become the version of myself that I've dreamed about? I love that. So even dealing with the most difficult person in my life, that person ends up becoming my meditation.

[B]

Oh, wow. That's huge.

[A]

Can my mind wander. Can my experience wander into the turbulence of receiving whatever that event is or that word or that email or that text message or that thing? And can I bring myself back to the center of the knowing that this, too, allows me to be my best self? Why? Because I just got to practice that. Yeah. Without the turbulence, I don't get to practice. Without the inconvenient thing, I don't get to remember that I'm very powerful and masterful. If we're on cruise control, we atrophy. Yeah. So the goal isn't actually cruise control. The goal is.

[B]

The goal is not letting other people. Like, how do I want to say this? Not letting other people's words and behavior trigger you. Right. Would that be the goal?

[A]

Well, I mean, let it Trigger you.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So that you use it to become your next best self.

[B]

Okay, I see. Right, right. Otherwise, then you are. You're not feeling right. Anything.

[A]

Yeah. Because the trigger is almost like. The trigger is the mind wandering.

[B]

Okay, that's interesting.

[A]

It can be a necessary. Like, that's like the inhale to the get to the exhale. It's a natural rhythm.

[B]

Okay. Okay. I like that. I'm gonna use that because. Yeah. This. I've been, like, trying to not let other people get to me. And you're right. There's. It's there for a reason, and you can use it to your advantage.

[A]

Yes. Okay.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Right. Isn't that so much more liberating?

[B]

Yes, you're right.

[A]

Because thinking about, like, not letting people get to me, and I feel you because I have been through so many rounds of this, as you know, especially in the last few months, and that puts me in a place of, like, tense, step resistance. I'm not gonna let you get to me. I'm not gonna let you get to me.

[B]

And then it's like you're not even human anymore if it's like, you can't touch me. Like, Right. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So it's like, oh, I see that experience. I feel the impact of that on me, and I see that I'm now better because I got to come back to myself. And now I can let it go.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I won't continue to think about it because I'm not gonna give this person the ability to take my peace and joy from this present moment, because right now, that person's not here.

[B]

That's what it is. It's. How can you feel it without it allowing to rob you of your joy?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. That's okay.

[A]

And seeing the beauty. And maybe not beauty is the wrong word, but seeing the purpose in it is, I think, what allows it to not plague us.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because we assign a purpose. We're happy about it. We let it go.

[B]

Okay. I love that. I'm.

[A]

I love this.

[B]

I'm excited to everything in my life, but I like that too, because everyone at home can take that too. And you can start small, if it's something small, and then work up to some of the more difficult things we go through.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Because you are a wealth of knowledge, my favorite person to talk to. I have a fun question for you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. If someone came to you before they were being reincarnated and said, is there anything I need to know before going to Earth, what would you say? What advice would you give that soul.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, what a fantastic question. Thank you. Of course, my mind immediately goes 100 directions.

[B]

I know.

[A]

But let me distill. Let me distill what. Okay. Would this be something that they would remember the whole time?

[B]

Oh, God. That's a good question.

[A]

Qualifier.

[B]

Yes. Okay, so this is. Yes. They can take this with them on their Earth journey.

[A]

They can remember this from the beginning. You can trust yourself.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

You can trust yourself.

[B]

Meaning, like, when you have a gut feeling, trust it. Right. Or like. Yeah.

[A]

Or maybe like, you can trust.

[B]

You can rely on yourself. You can always count on yourself.

[A]

Yes. And anything, kind of like what we've been talking about, anything that is happening in your life, you can trust that this is part of your evolution.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That. To me, distilling all of this down comes down to that. And. And being able to be present with life itself is actually the whole point. The reason I think I struggled with that question, or it made me, you know, freeze up for a moment, is because I have found that the forgetting of those truths is key to then being able to remember. Like, we forget in order to remember, because the coming into that awareness and that knowledge is exhilarating because we have forgotten.

[B]

Yeah, agreed.

[A]

It's the discovery of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then that becomes why it's all perfect.

[B]

So good. No, it's just so, like I say, like, I feel like I went through a spiritual awakening a few years ago, and that was like, holy shit. Like, it all was just, like, coming at me. And that was the craziest time in my life, but so cool. And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you came here with that knowledge, you wouldn't have that coming home, coming back to yourself. And that feeling in that moment of, like, I was actually, like, really proud of myself for doing it, also being like, you did it. Like, you. You came back home.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I think that's the coolest experience out there.

[A]

Exactly. And remembering. Remembering.

[B]

Yeah, remembering.

[A]

Remembering is the coolest experience. And we have to face. We have to, like, be in these dense places where we are so not remembering.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In order to make the remembering make sense.

[B]

Yeah. Like, you're.

[A]

I remember that first walk that we went on, and I was so. I was just like, wow, she is the real deal. Because of the way that you were able to speak about that part of your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And all of the perspective shifts that you underwent and how you, like, you owned everything that led into that. And you had this really clear way of relating to yourself in the midst of your life. And I remember getting back in My car and being like, I love her. And it was just this connection that you can only. I know what that is in you because I've experienced it in me. And I could hear you. I could hear the. The layers and the levels of what you were saying beyond the sentences that you were using.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

Because that common language then becomes a connective tissue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's why I think it's so great if we can all, you know, share our experiences and. And everyone's, you know, having their own version of what that looks like for them, and then we're able to relate about it and validate it and like.

[B]

And normalize it a little bit, you know, because I think for so long, it's like you would go through this stuff and you didn't really have anyone to talk to about it or you would almost. I'd be embarrassed about it. But, like, if someone can't relate, you're like, I'm not even going to go there. But I actually think what's cool is more people can relate than I think we think. Even friends in my own life are also sort of going through this similar spiritual awakening or whatever you want to call it. And I love seeing it because I think there's more people going through it than we want to say.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Also, I saw all the same things in you, and that's why I loved you immediately, too. Okay. I want to talk about alignment because you are someone who is so in sync with what is right for you and what's not. And I think I'm pretty good at it, too. But I think that what I've noticed is a lot of people, I think, don't know how to listen to themselves. They don't know how to say no. I think a lot of people are people pleasers. So what is advice for people listening to? How can they know if something is in alignment for them or not?

[A]

It's just having a conversation about this the other day and we settled on putting these words around it. Does it bring you closer to yourself or farther from yourself? People pleasing as an example, a lot of times you are putting yourself and your own truth in last place so that you can please the person believing that that is. That'll make you feel good or make you feel safe or make you get the love that you want, but it's taking you farther away from the truest you. You know, we need to please ourselves first. And it's not selfish. It's not selfish to prioritize what you know to be true and what Feels good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what feels. What feels fulfilling. And this is not like hedonist, you know, I'm not saying like, oh, go just feel good and screw it. Don't worry. That's not what we're saying. There's a centeredness and a groundedness that, to me, alignment feels like. And I think there's a sensation that happens for me when something is out of alignment. It feels like a tug in a way. You know when your stomach drops, like.

[B]

On a roller coaster or something.

[A]

Yeah. When your stomach drops or. Or when you receive news. Yeah.

[B]

It's just like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In your stomach.

[A]

Yeah. The pit in your stomach feeling. I will get that. When something is out of alignment.

[B]

For me, I'm the exact same.

[A]

And it's really subtle. Yeah. Yeah. So. So you have that same thing I do.

[B]

And I've had to learn. It's been trial and error over the years of just like, really tuning in with, like, I know immed, if I don't want to do something or something's not right for me, but it's. I've had to learn how to trust myself over the years. But we have an example of, like, let's say, I think with dating, it's kind of a tough question for people. Sometimes you have someone in your life where you've seen this, where she really liked a guy, but she knew that he wasn't right for her right now. How. Like, to me, that is the. You're the strongest human on the planet. Because I think it'd be really hard for me to really like someone so much. But be like, I know I see you where you're on your journey and I am going to allow you to be there. I would be like, but I want.

[A]

To be with you so bad.

[B]

How can you get to a place where you are that. I do not know what the word is. You are just. You are really moving from your highest self and you know that person is just not right for you in this moment. Like, how do you get to that place to be okay with that?

[A]

I love this example. We could riff on this for a long time. As you can imagine, I've spent long, so, so much time thinking about this because it does feel. It's almost like the phrase that we've used is it feels like it's going against the grain of the universe for us to not be together in the way that we know is possible. But what I know to be true is if one or both of us has to compromise our value systems or our dignity or our sense of self in order to be with the other one, then we're no longer in relationship with the person that we saw.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

In that moment. The person that we're like. Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because if you have to contort yourself around your life in order to make the relationship work, for me right now, that wasn't the highest and best expression of myself.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I value my alignment and my. What? What is the right word to use here?

[B]

We can say it's you. We can talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. I didn't know if that was okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're going through this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like, it's amazing to me.

[A]

Yeah. Because I know that I am devoted to a potential future that includes us trusting each other to grow in the ways that we need to grow individually. Because that's the version of each other that we're going to be able to love long term and sustainably. I just think that if we compromised any of that along the way, it would be short term bliss for long term. Potential fallout.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I've thought a lot about this. Like, what is unconditional love? How do I love someone unconditionally without compromising what I know is possible in a relationship? And so it's me choosing what is possible over what I think I want in the moment. Because that to me is like, that's the point. Growth and evolution over the course of a lifetime is the point. Being in a relationship, whether you're with the person or decidedly not with them, that's still being in relationship and inspiring growth. Because I believe that there are ways that he has grown and will continue to grow. Because we are not engaging in that way. Yeah. That we will look back and say, think goodness. We had the foresight, the insight, the devotion. Because I do see it as a form of devotion to what we both know is real.

[B]

I mean, that's why you're incredible, though. Well, but life is the long game, you know, if you think about it, it's like instead of. Because I was so impulsive for so many years and then had to learn how to just, okay, take a break, sit back, let life play out a little bit. Because everything always does end up working out. As much as we want to try to control it all. Exactly.

[A]

It does work out.

[B]

What about someone? Let's say they're in a job and they're happy, but they don't know. Like, they just. I think a lot of people sometimes like jobs, relationships, even places where they live. Like people Are like, I like it and I'm happy. But is this everything for me? Like, how do you know if that's an alignment for you? Let's just use a job, for example.

[A]

Jobs are interesting because I think that there's a lot of dimensions of how are you benefiting from this situation? Because I do think that there can be. I'm thinking about my first job. That was not the job for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But being in the job, that wasn't for me. I learned what I didn't want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So are you actively learning about yourself one way or another in the process?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I just. I'm. I'm such a junkie for growth and growth and evolution. So can you point to any version of growth or evolution if you are only stagnating, if you are only feeling frustration? Like, I think that that's an intelligent sign. Like, if you're feeling frustrated daily, there's something you're either not saying, not letting yourself know, not doing that would bring you into alignment. So you have to explore that and listen to it. And here's the key is to have the mastery to not project that frustration on a situation or someone else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If there is frustration in your life, there is inner frustration with something that you're not seeing, feeling, knowing, saying, et cetera. So if you can use that not ideal job, let's just say to access that, then that not ideal job has just become a benefit.

[B]

Ooh, wow.

[A]

And then I really do believe that the more that that happens, the more clarity. Someone naturally has to make a move if that is what is in alignment, or to make that, you know, alchemize that not ideal situation into maybe something that they couldn't see before because it was obscured by their own projections.

[B]

Okay, that's a great tip. And just because you're in a job right now doesn't mean it has to be forever. It could be in alignment right now, to your point. Maybe there's something you need to learn and then you can move on to something else.

[A]

Yes. And maybe it takes a week, maybe it takes a month, maybe it's a year. But as long as that's the orientation, I really don't think that there's a wrong choice.

[B]

Okay. I love that you and I are both in the camp that chaos is actually a good thing. And this is kind of what you've been saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So explain that. Because of the growth. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, because chaos. So this is what I wrote my whole book about.

[B]

I was just. And then let's talk about your Book.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes. My book, Alchemy of Chaos. And this book is based on the premise that, what if we knew that chaos is a good thing? What if we knew that chaos is an initiator of perspective and creative capacity and development of self. That wouldn't be possible without the unexpected, the unconscionable, or the uncontrollable. Those are kind of the three. The three things. And I have found in my life that when I have engaged with the unexpected, the uncontrollable or the unconscionable, that ultimately I have nodded to that as a reason that I was able to see something about myself that I couldn't see before, do something that I wouldn't have been motivated to do. You know, to have a conversation that needed to be had. But then this moment of chaos made it an absolute necessity or whatever it is. I think if we can use chaos to our advantage, we're much more powerful because then you're not living a life trying to manage chaos not happening to you. And instead it's like if it comes when it comes. Great. Giddy up, let's go. I know that I can turn this into something really amazing.

[B]

Yeah, I love that. Okay, when is the book coming out?

[A]

April 7th. Okay.

[B]

I've pre ordered it on Amazon. You guys all can too. Okay. You are my favorite human on the planet. Thank you.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

Thank you so much for being here. Of course. And then tell everyone where they can find you. And obviously where they can order your book too.

[A]

Yes. I mean, wildly. Simon and Schuster is doing the distribution for the book, so it's available everywhere, I think Target and Barnes and Noble.

[B]

Oh my God. And it's on Amazon right now. It is on Amazon?

[A]

Yeah. You can pre order it anywhere and everywhere. And I'm working on becoming a person who posts on social media. It's been a few years. Oops.

[B]

No. It's so good that you do. They don't. So they can't find you anywhere.

[A]

They can find me, but I. It looks like a dormant profile. I promise I will be posting much, much more because my. It was so funny. My publisher was looking at my non existent social media presence and I've built so much of my career in stealth mode.

[B]

Like I haven't.

[A]

It hasn't really been a part of which is my success badass, by the.

[B]

Way, that you haven't needed social media?

[A]

Well, it's a blessing and a curse because now at this point in my life where I have done this thing, I've written This great book. I really love this book that I wrote and I think it's gonna be really helpful for a lot of people. But there's no real channels for anyone to know that I did it. And so my publisher was like, Christine, you're gonna just have to get your mind around posting on social media because you've put five years of your life into this. Don't you want to let people know it exists? It's okay to talk about the thing you did.

[B]

I know.

[A]

You know, so I'm. I'm working on it.

[B]

Okay, well, so you'll be posting soon?

[A]

Yes, I'll be posting before. In fact, I'm gonna post in honor of this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It'll be my first post since 2022, I think, or 2023.

[B]

That's. Maybe it's a good thing. But so all you guys need to go and like it. So is it just your name? Your Christine Thompson?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Your. Your Instagram. Okay. And then do you have a website? What if people.

[A]

I do have a website. It's under my old brand right now, but it's going to be moved to my new company name which I named after my kids love. And it's gonna be called Atlas of Orion.

[B]

Cute.

[A]

Can you believe I got the dot com.

[B]

That's actually amazing.

[A]

I know.

[B]

How cute are her kids names, you guys?

[A]

I love them so much.

[B]

So sweet.

[A]

Yes. So it'll be. It'll be atlasoforion.com. okay.

[B]

We love.

[A]

Very soon.

[B]

Amazing. So this comes out in like two weeks, so you need to get going. Okay, perfect.

[A]

Thank you for the deadline.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. I love you too, so much. Please note that this episode may contain.

[A]

Paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products.

[B]

Or services referred to in this episode.