The Journey to Getting Sober with Jason and Ashley Wahler

Summary

Podcast Summary: Let’s Be Honest with Kristin Cavallari
Episode: The Journey to Getting Sober with Jason and Ashley Wahler
Release Date: December 3, 2024

Kristin Cavallari, host of the lifestyle podcast Let’s Be Honest, welcomes Jason and Ashley Waller in an emotionally charged episode focusing on addiction, sobriety, and the profound impact these struggles have on individuals and their families. The candid conversation delves deep into Jason's personal battle with addiction, the resilience of their relationship, and the strategies they've employed to foster healing and strength.

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1. Jason Waller’s Battle with Addiction [02:19]

Jason begins by recounting his early struggles, tracing his battle with addiction back to childhood obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). He shares, “[I] struggled severely with OCD... washing my hands until they bleed” ([02:19]). This internal turmoil set the stage for his later substance abuse. At the age of 13 or 14, Jason was first introduced to alcohol in a social setting, leading to his initial exposure to substance use. He describes his first experience: “he thought it'd be funny to go up to him and fart on him and pull down his pants” ([04:37]), highlighting the chaotic and unintentional beginnings of his addiction.

2. The Domino Effect of Addiction [05:49]

Jason explains how his struggle with OCD and subsequent substance abuse were compounded by a genetic predisposition to mental health issues and addiction within his family. After undergoing extensive treatment, including attending multiple treatment centers from Florida to Hawaii, Jason faced severe challenges, including multiple arrests and suicidal thoughts. He emphasizes the pervasive nature of addiction: “Addiction takes everything that was very important to me... I found myself by myself” ([05:49]).

3. The Turning Point and Path to Sobriety [08:23]

A pivotal moment in Jason's journey occurred during his time on the reality show Laguna Beach. His marriage to Ashley became a cornerstone of his recovery. Jason shares a critical turning point: “There was a moment of clarity when I went through all of this... it was a God moment for me” ([08:23]). This realization, coupled with his family's support, enabled him to achieve sobriety on July 23, 2010. However, the journey was fraught with relapses, particularly after the birth of their daughter, Delilah.

4. Ashley Waller’s Role and Challenges [20:48]

Ashley provides a heartfelt account of supporting Jason through his addiction. She discusses the profound impact addiction had on her own well-being and their relationship. Ashley reflects, “I became addicted to his addiction... I isolated, and I became psychotic in my brain” ([22:33]). Her commitment to Jason remained strong because she knew him in his sober state and yearned for his recovery. The birth of Delilah further motivated Ashley to seek help, leading to Jason’s renewed commitment to sobriety: “[I] had to call my mom... We checked him into detox” ([28:25]).

5. Recognizing Signs of Addiction [26:44]

The Waller couple outlines key indicators of addiction, emphasizing behavioral changes such as isolation, altered routines, and abandonment of previously enjoyed activities. Jason notes, “You’ll see change in behavior... isolation” ([26:44]). Ashley adds that enabling behaviors, like lying to cover up relapses, exacerbate the problem: “I had to text his boss and be like, oh, he has the flu” ([27:30]).

6. Strategies for Supporting Loved Ones [45:19]

When asked for advice, Jason and Ashley stress the importance of honesty and seeking professional help. Ashley advises, “Reach out to a professional... Do not be the addict’s psychiatrist or therapist” ([45:23]). Jason echoes this sentiment, emphasizing education and acknowledging the disease: “Understand what addiction is... seek guidance on what the best next steps are” ([45:55]). They advocate for programs like Al-Anon and highlight the necessity of setting healthy boundaries to prevent codependency.

7. Maintaining Sobriety During Stressful Times [59:32]

As the holiday season approaches, the couple offers practical tips for maintaining sobriety. Jason recommends having an exit strategy and a supportive network: “Bring somebody that can be supportive with you... have an exit strategy” ([59:54]). Ashley underscores the importance of attending additional support meetings and creating a supportive environment by minimizing triggers, such as alcohol at gatherings: “It’s supportive” ([61:44]).

8. Parenting and Preventing Addiction in Children [52:34]

Jason discusses proactive measures to prevent addiction in their children, citing research that early abstinence significantly reduces the risk of future addiction: “If you do not drink or use by the age of 21, there's a 90% chance you will never struggle with addiction” ([53:16]). He emphasizes open communication and education, aiming to equip his children with the knowledge to make informed decisions: “Explain what this does and what it's done to our family” ([53:28]).

9. Future Endeavors and Continued Advocacy [64:20]

Looking ahead, Jason and Ashley share their plans to continue advocating for addiction awareness and support. Jason mentions partnering with companies like Change of Brain and launching products like SoberSure, a transdermal alcohol monitoring band, to aid in recovery efforts: “Sobersure is the first-ever transdermal alcohol monitoring detection band” ([62:34]). They also plan to relaunch “Jaws,” a series based on their recovery journey, to inspire and connect with others facing similar challenges.

Conclusion

Jason and Ashley Waller’s story is a testament to the enduring power of love, resilience, and the pursuit of sobriety. Their openness serves as a beacon of hope for millions struggling with addiction and highlights the ripple effects of substance abuse on families and communities. By sharing their journey, they provide invaluable insights and encourage others to seek help, set boundaries, and foster supportive environments conducive to healing and growth.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jason Waller ([02:19]): “I struggled severely with OCD... washing my hands until they bleed.”
• Jason Waller ([05:49]): “Addiction takes everything that was very important to me... I found myself by myself.”
• Ashley Waller ([22:33]): “I became addicted to his addiction... I isolated, and I became psychotic in my brain.”
• Jason Waller ([45:55]): “Understand what addiction is... seek guidance on what the best next steps are.”
• Jason Waller ([53:16]): “If you do not drink or use by the age of 21, there's a 90% chance you will never struggle with addiction.”

This episode provides a raw and honest exploration of the complexities of addiction and the pathway to recovery, making it an essential listen for anyone impacted by these issues.

Transcript

[Kristin Cavallari]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. This is let's Be Honest with Kristin Cavallari, a podcast all about getting real and open on everything from sex, relationships, reality tv, wellness, family, and so much more. And just a fair warning, there will probably be some oversharing. Cause I got all the power.

[Ashley Waller]

Yep.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Jason and Ashley Waller, welcome to let's Be Honest. How are you guys?

[Jason Waller]

Thank you for having us.

[Kristin Cavallari]

I'm so excited you guys are here. And if you're watching at home, there are constructions, construction workers in the background, and trucks. And it might get loud here in a minute, so I'm sorry if that's what happens. No, I want you to make yourself really comfortable.

[Jason Waller]

I want to be comfortable. Are you sure?

[Kristin Cavallari]

We actually want you to sing a song to us.

[Jason Waller]

I'll save us from that one. Okay.

[Kristin Cavallari]

They were just making fun of me. Cause I'm trying to get the camera set up. This is a one woman show, you guys. And it's crooked. Jason wasn't even in the frame.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah, it was. It's okay.

[Kristin Cavallari]

We're making the most of it. Okay.

[Jason Waller]

It's working.

[Ashley Waller]

Okay.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Well, I'm really excited that you guys are here. For the few people at home that may not know, Jason and I went to high school together. You guys are married. We all reconnected here in the last few years when you guys moved to Franklin, Tennessee. And it's been incredible getting to know each other's families, getting the kids together. And I'm excited about this conversation because this today, you guys is all going to be about addiction and sobriety. Jason, you have one of the most inspiring stories I've ever heard. And actually, you walked along him, and so I'm excited to talk about that. Jason, you and I recently went to lunch together and you told me that addiction affects, what was it, over 46 million people. But really it affects so much more than that because it affects everyone who's involved in that person's life. So it's safe to say over 150 million people at least.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah. Yes, that sounds correct. I mean, if you look at 46 million, you think whether they have, you know, it's their son, their daughter, you know, their husband, their wife, their kids. I mean, everybody's got, you know, family, and you look how many people are tied to that.

[Ashley Waller]

Yep.

[Jason Waller]

So, yeah, I mean, it affects a lot of people.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Well, and just personally, I mean, I think everyone that I know has some sort of a story too, as I'm sure that's the same with you guys as well. So I'm really excited to talk to you, too, about witnessing that and being alongside Jason as he got sober. But, Jason, I do want to start with your story and just how you got here today, your addiction and sobriety story.

[Jason Waller]

I mean, where should we start? You know, I look back, you know, after doing a lot of work on myself, I can see, you know, that I struggled with addiction way before I ever picked up a drink or a drug. And what I mean by that is when I was about 11 or 12 years old, you know, I struggled severely with OCD. You know, I'd wash my hands until they bleed, and I literally have to put neoprene gloves on with Neosporin in them. And it was a really challenging time back then, you know, And I look at that, and it was. That was the start of it, right? And I mean, back then, I had parents who were very supportive, very loving, very, very there for me. Saw therapist, saw psychiatrist, was given medication, and it helped mitigate the symptoms, but I never dealt with the underlying issues. Right. And so it was weird at that age kind of when we connected, you know what I mean? And being. It was. I was living like a double life at that age, at 12, 13 years old, you know, as part of the popular group, was athletic, was outgoing, but internally, I was dealing with this. This underlying thing, you know, like, you know, come home, hands are cracking moments, need you to put on the gloves again. And as silly as that sounds, that's kind of where this. A lot of this stuff stemmed from and where it started. And so again, at 12, 13, like, trying to navigate this life, living a double life, you know, and fast forward a couple of years and you find, you know, you find alcohol and you find the relief of that. And I was like, dude, found alcohol. Who needs. Who needs medication, right? Which. Which is crazy, though. I looked the first time I was ever actually introduced to alcohol, which was with my best friend Brandon and his friend Ross. I'm not going to share the intimacy behind that story because it's pretty gross to happened. But wait, now I'm really curious, too.

[Ashley Waller]

I don't think I've heard that story before.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Say that and then not say the story. Wait, and how old were you?

[Jason Waller]

I was like 13 or 14, which is crazy because I didn't. I don't even remember the first time I got drunk, but I remember this is like the first real time that we. This is the first real time, like, we, you know, we're going to drink. His brother got. Got a six pack or no, like a 12 pack came back and it was like one of those things where I was drinking and pouring it over my shoulder. Well, I probably had like a few sips. They ended up getting smashed and. And one of them ended up passing out. And you know, Brandon, Brandon thought it'd be funny to go up to him and fart on him and. And pull down his pants and sharded all over his face, dude. So that was. That was.

[Ashley Waller]

We did not need to hear.

[Jason Waller]

That was my first interaction with alcohol.

[Kristin Cavallari]

That made you want to keep going?

[Jason Waller]

That made me want to keep going. You guys said you wanted to hear that. Dude, that's.

[Kristin Cavallari]

No, you're right, you're right. I'm happy you told us.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah, I don't know about that. But anyways, so yeah, you think it was funny and going back to like, so awkward. Sorry, Brandon.

[Ashley Waller]

No, poor Brandon.

[Jason Waller]

But it was. But that was literally. And I don't know why, it's like, that's. I remember that was like the first time where we like, we're intentionally going to go and drink. Right. And so the next thing that ended up happening is I tried, tried. So ended up obviously loving alcohol down the road. But I remember the first time I smoked marijuana, I was actually in Laguna Keep out, who I was with. We smoked and we were down at Thalia and I ended up like, it kicked in and I ended up having like the gnarliest panic attack. And I wrote and I ran all the way from failure, all the way home. Yeah. Just thinking that. Thinking that the cops were going to get me. And so like the interactions that I personally had with substances, like, were not like these amazing first experiences obviously down the road as I started drinking more and you know, like engaged in it and got the effects of what it does to you. Like, there was a major relief for it and it ended up becoming an identity for me, you know. And so you fast forward that and there was some other, you know, I was dealing with insecurities. I was dealing with, you know, just shame and guilt and just underlying issues. Right.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Well, I was going to ask you about that. So you think those are the reasons you were developing this OCD and then. Or like, where did that come from?

[Jason Waller]

Well, so it's interesting, the ocd. There's. And so I'll preface this. My family, there's pre genetic disposition to addiction in my family and mental health. Okay. So half my family struggles with mental health and. Or addiction. I mean, I'm Turkey, German and Irish. Should have had a stamp on the forehead when I came out of the womb that says, don't let this person use. But there was a long line of history with that, and I don't know necessarily where. For 20 years, I never understood where the OCD had come from, actually, until I met with Dr. Amen and did a scan with him all these years later. Keep in mind, I went to, what, 13 or 14 treatment centers. I've seen so many therapists, so many psychologists, and a lot have been very helpful and instrumental over the years. And, I mean, it's helped me get to where I'm at today. But when I connected with him, it allotted me the opportunity to do a deeper dive, and he had me get tested for pandas, which is basically where strep throat attacks part of your brain that creates ocd.

[Ashley Waller]

Wow.

[Jason Waller]

And so, again, kind of putting this all together, I mean, you look back when I was such a young kid, because I grew up with amazing parents, had a stable home, I had amazing morals, amazing values. I probably had an idyllic childhood. It was amazing growing up where we did and just having the family that I did and the, you know, the siblings and the support was. Was all there. But it, It. It all makes sense now kind of coming back to this. But that's where those things started to domino. And again, is. Is with the ocd. I mean, it was debilitating, like I couldn't function. You know what I mean? I mean, literally washing your hands like, 30 times a day. And. But as. As things progressed and, you know, when you're in the most impressionable and influential age, I mean, at 17, 18, like, even when I was trying to get help, right, Because a lot of people, like, why didn't the therapist or your parents, it's like they did everything that they could, but also back then, and like the late 90s, early 2000s, the way that you could communicate around things was so hard. And I, like, I don't even remember exactly how I was being, you know, not interviewed, but, like, you know, like, given therapy. It's like I couldn't even express, like, what was going on. Obviously they knew something was going on with my hands. Like, yeah, I washed my hands a lot. I'm afraid of germs, I'm afraid of all this stuff. But, like, there was no real communication around how for me to be explain what was going on. And so things just progressively started to get worse and, you know, entered into my first, like, experience with treatment and wilderness. When we were in juniors in high school, I went to God, I went to walkabout, this program that Was it was a wilderness program out in Provo, Utah. And then I went to boarding school at this place called Discovery Academy. And then from there, when I got back, that's when I was asked to be on Laguna.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

And then everything ended up dominoing, you know, and again I was like, I wanted to. I'll kind of summarize this and put it from like a 50,000 foot view, but from the ages of 18 to 23, that's where, you know, I was arrested a lot. I ended up going to the 12, 13 different treatment centers, the whole Florida to Hawaii and every state in between, and was really struggling, you know. And addiction not only took me to contemplation, but attempting suicide, which was a very deep and dark place. And I think like looking at that is when you don't see that there's a way out, you know, and especially when society says if you have, you know, money, notoriety, fame, access, whatever these things are, you know, that life is amazing. It's. That wasn't true, obviously. And for me, it was the most debilitating place. I mean, addiction took everything that was very important to me. I mean, I ruined a lot of relationships, I ruined a lot of friendships, I ruined opportunities. And it took everything that I had from me that was important. I found myself by myself at my house or my apartment, you know, even. Even when I'd have a party or friends over, I'd be in the back room by myself, you know. And it was. Became just this very isolating place. And Ashley can talk about it later because obviously I ended up getting sober and then relapsing. And it wasn't. It's not a thing where it's like used to be life of the party. And I'd be go out and have fun. It's like a drink to get ripped and to get. To get out of self. It's not like, oh, let's go have fun, you know, those. Those days are over. And addiction is primary. It's chronic. Chronic, it's progressive, and it's fatal if it's untreated. And I can look back and to see how progressive this disease was in my life and where it took me. And it was really challenging. But the beauty of this. And again, going back to the amazing family relationship and the dynamic is with my parents because there was a moment of clarity when I went through all of this, you know, And I'll never forget. I've never seen my dad break down besides when his mother had passed away. And I've been in a lot of therapy sessions with my family before and. But there was something different about this one. And I remember looking over at my dad and my mom and they looked at me and my dad says, jason, we don't know what, you know, we don't know what to do anymore. You know, we're just, we're literally at our wits end. Our marriage is struggling, which. And the family is suffering. There's a lot of codependency, which Ashley can talk to you about, about that. But a tear was run down his face and he just looked over and he said, jason, mom and I are just like two planks of wood lying in bed waiting for the phone call at your dad. And for whatever reason, like I said, I tried taking my life. I had all the rest, had all that stuff. There was just this, it was an aha moment. It was a God moment for me where there was this like, I'm like, I don't care enough about myself. But they became my motivation to really again go back into treatment. I'm like, I'll do it for them this time. And it worked for, you know, until I started to acquire some sobriety. About five, six months, my life started to get better. And then it was something that I needed to obviously take over, to be able to maintain and sustain. But I was at a place where I didn't have hope anymore and I needed to have something that I could grab onto and that was them. And they, I owe them tremendously for so much. And there was obviously some amazing friends and stuff along the way that were not willing to give up on me. And there's a lot that I'm skipping over, so obviously we can touch on that. I'm trying to just give you the high level. And then so I think, you know, fast forward, you know. July 23, 2010. Ended up getting sober, finding a whole new way of life. Life was getting amazing. Removed myself from la, focused on myself, obviously ended up being an amazing woman.

[Kristin Cavallari]

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I've been making a ton of grilled cheese for my kids and you guys. I am so excited about their monthly small batches of indulgent favorites like their 2 gram net carb hero croissants. Excuse me? My family and I love a croissant. Croissants are actually my favorite thing on the planet. So I am so excited to be trying these. And they have other new surprises coming over the holidays. Okay, guys, Herobread is offering 10% off your order of their new recipe. So go to Hero Co and use code honest at checkout. That's honest at H e r o c. Yeah. When did you guys meet?

[Jason Waller]

We met. God.

[Ashley Waller]

2020.

[Jason Waller]

Wait, 2020?

[Ashley Waller]

Man, no, 2011.

[Jason Waller]

So after 2010, 2011, we met before, and then. And then we never saw each other again for. Until I had about a year of sobriety. And then, like, a week before your one year, Right before my one year of sobriety, I asked her to be my girlfriend.

[Ashley Waller]

Was very cute. I cooked for him. And then he said yes because he liked my meal.

[Jason Waller]

Yes.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Way to win a man over. Was a good meal.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah. And so from there, though, you know, life was getting good and things were going really well, and I ended up obtaining, you know, four and a half, five years of sobriety. But unfortunately, I went back out. And I think the simplest way to put it is everything that I did to get to where I was at, I stopped doing. And so my program completely came off, off track. I always tell people that, you know, consistency and structure create safety, and that's a big part of somebody that's in recovery is a part of their program. And that's what I was, you know, what I was doing. And for me, even till this day and something I was doing back then is when I wake up, I do a morning meditation, I do a prayer, I do a gratitude list. Three things I'm grateful for. Not only what, but why. That's where a lot of the meat resides. Within that go to meetings, you know. Now a big thing that I do is I incorporate myself within, like, Bible studies. I exercise a ton, which is so important. And then, you know, I go about my day. And then at the end of the day, I do basically, like, a reprieve, and I identify the areas that I was wrong and that I could do it better. But more importantly, the things that I did right to give myself kudos. I think a lot of people don't give themselves enough grace, but that way, when I hit my head to the pillow, the next day is a fresh day. Oh, wow. And so. But. But looking at all this stuff, you know, with the relapse that happened and going back into the story, I mean, there was obviously some underlying things that I, you know, obviously needed to deal with through that process. There was gambling, there was, you know, all these other things that came up. Body imaging and just like, again, going back to this shame, guilt, all of that. But I was actually at the first floor at Hogue Hospital while Ashley was giving birth to our daughter on the fourth floor. And so, again, is. That's just how cunning, baffling, and powerful addiction is, is it can take everything from you. And with all the knowledge that I had and with the amazing resources and access and stuff like that, when you're in the. In the depths of it, dude, it grabs a hold of you and it just wants to take you out. And again, is. Is. That wasn't even enough. I mean, I ended up coming out of detox. I was sober. When I saw my daughter be born within, I don't know, four or five days, I was back at it again until Ashley started to get help and do what she needed to do for herself and really implement and set boundaries and work a program for herself, because it wasn't about me anymore. It's. It was about her. And now a child that was brought into the. To the picture and. But she basically was intervened on again by people and ended up going back to the treatment for the last time.

[Ashley Waller]

Wow.

[Kristin Cavallari]

And this was what year Delilah is this Delilah?

[Jason Waller]

Seven.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Seven.

[Ashley Waller]

She's seven.

[Jason Waller]

And so I'll just finish that story, though, because I would. I should basically have seven years. There was that day lapse that I had. I ended up calling Dr. Drew when I took that Adderall pill after. So when was that? When we were filming.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Oh, the Hills.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah. So the hills came back. There's a lot of things that kind of went in and out from an emotional standpoint, because I had actually had nine, over nine months of sobriety when I came out from treatment that. That time when Delilah was, you know. So when I went back into treatment, it came back out at about nine months, and that's when that lapse happened. But again, it was. It was the intention behind it. Caught it before it got bad.

[Kristin Cavallari]

And that was just taking an Adderall pill.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah.

[Kristin Cavallari]

And then you called Dr. Drew and what did he say to you?

[Jason Waller]

He basically said, just appreciate the honesty, you know, and. But, you know, don't beat yourself up with this. And let's get back on track. You know, this is. This is a lapse and, you know, it's. It's not something where you ended up having this be a multiple day thing. And so got back on track and. And I'll have five years in December.

[Kristin Cavallari]

That's amazing.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Congrats.

[Jason Waller]

Thank you.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Ashley, when you met Jason, did it make you nervous at all?

[Ashley Waller]

Actually, no, because I. When I met him and he had told me that he was an alcoholic, he had explained to me that that was like the most important thing to me. I mean, to him, he said that God was number one. And then his sobriety, and if he didn't have his sobriety, he'd have nothing. He wouldn't have me. He wouldn't have his family, nobod. So that was really, really important to him. I don't think I understood the effects of the disease of addiction. I grew up in an Italian family. You know, drinking for me was very casual at a very young age. It was more of an acquired taste, like a cultural thing. Instead of it being like, we're drinking to get drunk. It's like we're drinking because we're having pasta, right? Yeah, it's a little different. So I never really grew up around the idea of addiction at all. I was very naive to even understanding it was a disease. I thought it was actually a choice, which is now I know is not. So when he had told me that, I'm like, okay, yeah, great, but you're sober now, so you're gonna be fine. And I always just thought he would be sober. So I think when the shoe dropped as many times as it did, I was in such a place of disbelief, and I was so manipulated by the disease because it's not like Jason was sitting there wanting to manipulate me or hurt me or anything. It's like the disease of addiction is so powerful that it's like the disease is taking over their body. I always said it's like a demon was taking over his body. And it didn't matter about the family. It didn't matter about anything. It was like the disease needed to be fed, and he was going to do whatever he could to manipulate me to do whatever he could to get what he needed to get.

[Jason Waller]

It's like a survival gene.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Right, right. That makes sense. How did you find the strength to stay with him? Especially when Delilah is born and, you know, he's not even there? I mean, how did you get through that?

[Ashley Waller]

It's so crazy, but I honestly, truly believe that, because I knew Jason when he was sober. I knew his heart, and what a wonderful man that he was. And I was yearning so much to get that person back. And I think that that's the difference of my story. Whereas a lot of other people that I've heard before that have been in relationships or marriages, you know, the disease of addiction had always been in the relationship, and they just got to the point where the partner never wanted to get help or anything like that. And with him, it's like, I knew who he was when he was sober, and this was not him. And I wanted that person back so bad. So I just kept holding on to hope that one day I was going to get him back, and that's what kept me hanging on. And even though, you know, it was so hard, I think a lot of times people don't realize, like, besides the addict, being sick, when you're surrounded by somebody that is so toxic, it can make you so sick yourself. Like, I lost everything that I thought I knew. I didn't even know what color I liked. I didn't know what. You know what I mean? I didn't know what I liked to do. Hobbies, recreation. It was like, I isolated, and I became addicted to his addiction. So instead of me focusing on myself, I'm checking pill bottles and smelling things. And I became psychotic in my brain and thinking that, oh, he must be lying, or is he doing this? It's like your brain manipulates you to thinking, okay, if he tells me he's okay, he's okay. But then you're seeing things. You just. You can't feel your gut anymore. Like, your gut instinct is completely dissolved because you don't know reality from what's real and what's not real. So I think just holding onto that hope was so important for me. And then, honestly, I feel like the reason why I actually finally reached out and got help is because of Delilah. Like, I think I probably could have lived with the attic the rest of my life being sick. And I probably would have. I probably would have been the one to die, to be honest, because I was so miserable. And that's how sad it is, because I think being surrounded by that for so long, losing myself, I don't think I even realized how bad it was until I had, like, a wake up. It's almost like a smack. Like, okay, your reality shifted. Now you got to focus on something else. And, like, that was my focus. I couldn't focus on the addict anymore. Right.

[Jason Waller]

I always say, just I think it's important for people to understand is wherever there's an alcoholic or an addict, there's a codependent, and sometimes they're just as sick, if not sick. Wow. Yeah. So it's. It's. That's why they call it the family disease.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Right. And so what boundaries did you set when Delilah was born? What did you say to Jason?

[Ashley Waller]

I mean, this is the thing with boundaries, is that you have to actually learn real boundaries, not just saying stuff, and then you have to follow through. Moving them.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah, yeah. Moving the goalposts.

[Ashley Waller]

Yes. I've done that a lot in my life. And now as a parent, it's like a whole another thing of boundaries. But I ended up starting to go to Al Anon After Jason went to treatment. But the biggest thing for me was actually just reaching out and surrendering and asking for help, because I think I thought I could do everything that I could to save him. I was so scared about what people would think if he relapsed. It was such a shame thing, even for both of us. He worked in the treatment space, and people didn't know he had relapsed.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Oh, right.

[Ashley Waller]

It was our income.

[Jason Waller]

Right. That was like, the scariest part, too, is, like, you bring up some of these things is. Is like before when we all used to hang out and party was like 8 out of 10 times. You know, I'd get in trouble or get arrested or something would happen. This time around, nobody knew, like, that was besides Ashley. Like, I'm working with doctors, I'm working with, like, clinicians, therapists, psychiatrists. And I was able to hide it. I got so good at hiding it.

[Ashley Waller]

Wow.

[Jason Waller]

That people couldn't even tell. And that's. That's where it was like, became like, looking back, I'm like, God. And I was using a lot.

[Ashley Waller]

A lot.

[Jason Waller]

Like, that's like, so my body. My tolerance was Gotten so high. That's what was really getting scary. But I just wanted to throw that in because it was way different. First versus second.

[Kristin Cavallari]

I'm curious, and I'm sure a lot of listeners will be, too. What are some signs to tell if someone is an addict? Because like you said, they get into this pattern of lying. It's manipulation. So how do you know if you're on the other end of it? If potentially someone is back using.

[Ashley Waller]

I'll have you answer that, and I'll say what you shouldn't do. Like, things you shouldn't. If someone.

[Jason Waller]

I think the biggest thing is you'll see change in behavior. Right. Isolation. I mean, depending on the age demographic and whether it's your teenage kid to your spouse to your parent. I mean, but also the people that they surround themselves with just different routines that they're doing things. If they loved doing certain things and they stopped doing them, whether they have activities or whether they're going to the gym often, whether they were playing in a. Playing golf a lot. Just. I mean, if there's things that were a part of their life that are not becoming a part of their life anymore, those are signs and symptoms to look out for. Again, the isolation. Yeah.

[Kristin Cavallari]

I mean, those isolation, even just, like, being home and them being in the other room. Not wanting to be with the family sort of thing.

[Jason Waller]

Not wanting to connect. Exactly.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Not wanting to connect.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Okay.

[Ashley Waller]

And I think the biggest thing for me that I wish I could have gone back and not done, is that when Jason would relapse and then he'd have these benders, he would sleep the whole entire next couple days.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah.

[Ashley Waller]

And he'd have to be out of work, so I'd have to text his boss and be like, oh, he has the flu. You know, I'd have to lie for him. And that was something that should have been. I should not have done. You know, I should have let him fall. But instead, I was so worried about the repercussions of if you were not to show up at work or people were to know. It's like, that's the sickness that I was playing into. That's what codependency is. It's like I'm sitting there signing off on his behaviors to make them okay, and that's wrong.

[Kristin Cavallari]

And so did you even lie to your family and all of your friends? Everybody.

[Ashley Waller]

Everybody, everybody, like, the whole time.

[Kristin Cavallari]

So what did they say when you told them what was going on?

[Ashley Waller]

So it got to the point where I was really pregnant with Delilah. With Delilah?

[Kristin Cavallari]

Your first.

[Ashley Waller]

Yes. And it was getting to the point where I was gonna have her soon, and I was freaking out because I thought, oh, my God, like, I'm gonna have a baby. And my husband is like, he might be blacked out one day. I need to have a spouse that's gonna be supportive. So I had to call my mom, and she kind of had an inkling, because she can tell me not being as happy or stuff like that. So I think she kind of had an inkling of what was going on. And my mom has always been extremely supportive. She loves Jason, and she, you know, just wants the best for him and for us. And so she came down and helped me with Delilah. And I actually had reached out to one of his friends that he had worked with and was like, I have to get him. We have to get him into detox. Like, I am not having this baby alone. And I was, like, angry, you know, so angry at this point. And I knew the baby was going to come really soon. And so we, like, checked him in. We just, like, checked him in. And then we called his parents on the drive after dropping him off, and we're like, we checked Jason into detox, and we're like, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, it's a problem, and I'm not having this baby alone. Yeah, it was really, really hard. That conversation was really hard to have sure.

[Kristin Cavallari]

So.

[Ashley Waller]

And then I went into labor. My water broke when I was at the house, I remember with my mom, and it was such a weird situation because I remember calling and trying to get him out of detox, and I'd explain to them, like, I'm having a baby in a couple days. If I have this baby, you have to get him out of detox. I need him to be there for the birth. Like, I cannot have this baby by myself. And so I remember calling, and they're like, I remember I get into triage. I check in after my water broke, and the guy on the phone, of course it's a man, Says, do you think he could just sleep a little bit longer? He really needs to detox for a little longer. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? I'm having a baby.

[Kristin Cavallari]

I'm in triage.

[Ashley Waller]

Get his ass up here right now. Like, I was so pissed. I couldn't believe this guy was serious. Like, you know, could you just give.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Him a few hours?

[Ashley Waller]

I'm like, no, honey, we can't give him a few hours. It's happening. So we pulled him out, and, yeah, we had the baby. And, like, I'm. I'm grateful in that moment that he was at least coherent when I had the baby, but it was. He had relapsed within a couple weeks when I had had Delilah, because he didn't arrest the disease. Like, we had pulled him out, and then he didn't go to treatment after that, and it was just kind of back to.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Oh, so he didn't. Okay, so you didn't go back to treatment then once Delilah was born, you were home. Got it?

[Jason Waller]

No, Correct. And that's the problem. So I didn't actively arrest the disease and get stabilized. Then I was in there for, like, three or four days. No, two or three days.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah. Maybe two, three. Two, three days.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Basically, you just slept.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah, pretty much. And so I wasn't able to, like, get into routine, into a program, and so went back to my old ways. Right. And so, yeah, that's. That's what happens. Like, what would have been beneficial is go up, watch her be born, and then come back and check into tree.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Right.

[Jason Waller]

But that wasn't the case.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Was that the hardest moment for you both or what was.

[Ashley Waller]

Oh, my gosh. There's so many hard moments. I mean, I feel like. I think probably one of the hardest, most vivid moments that I remember is when I was very, very pregnant with Delilah. And this was kind of like when you see yourself and you're you're like, stepping back from your own body and you're watching your life experience. Yes. And I always used to say to myself, like, this isn't my life. Like, God did not. Like, I do not. I was so angry with God. Like, I had no relationship with God during a lot of this because I had lost my dad. He had relapsed. It was just like my life was crumbling. I'm like, this isn't my life. Like, I deserve so much better. I'm a good person. I'm a good. This. What the hell is going on? And he. I remember he walked in and he looked at me and he's like, you're, like, really pregnant? I'm like, yeah. And he started tearing up because he didn't remember. Like, he hadn't remembered the whole time of me being pregnant. It was so sad. And he's like, wow, you're, like, going to have a baby soon. And I'm like, yeah, I was, like, nine months pregnant. I remember. And he just kind of looked at me, like, really sad. And that was really, really hard. Because it's very sad when, you know, the person that you love so much is hurting so much, and they're just. I didn't have the tools.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah. Oh, that breaks my heart.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

I think, like, just listening to all this, like, even just going back, right. Like, I mean, I've shared my story a lot, but it's just, like, obviously in an intimate setting with somebody I've known for a long time, obviously been married for forever. It's sad to see, you know, just everything that's transpired, you know, and again, is. I also have learned from this whole process because your greatest deficits become your greatest assets. And I know that everything that we went through, but it's hard to hear all this, obviously, right? I mean, especially when I. I'm so present and I'm with my kids now, which I'm so grateful for. But it's just like, that's what this thing can do to you. And, like, it's, you know, having to relive that stuff. It's not. It's not fun. I think it's important to talk about it because by expressing vulnerability, it creates humility. And there's millions of people that are going through this. And so I think it's. It's important to talk about it. But, you know, it's. It's like. I mean, I missed Delilah crawling. You know, I went back in treatment. I mean, I missed. You know, I mean, I was. Yeah, I was there for the pregnancy, it's like there's a big difference between physically being there and mentally being there. And so seeing and just. And talking about all this stuff. I mean, there was a lot of hard times, you know, and again is like, it was the relapse that I had had after having, you know, getting sober for four, four and a half years. You know, that window from July 23, 2010, to. Yeah, four and a half, five years later. And then looking at relapse lasted for how many. How long did it go for?

[Ashley Waller]

Probably two and a half years. Oh, a long time.

[Kristin Cavallari]

I didn't realize it was.

[Jason Waller]

I think it was longer than that, to be honest.

[Ashley Waller]

Probably because I don't think you had five years before.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Did you know the whole time, too, or did you lie about it a lot? In the beginning, I knew about it.

[Ashley Waller]

But you knew, but he lied to me about it. I mean, I knew in my gut, like, this man is definitely drinking. Like, there's alcohol in the garage, hiding. And he'd say, it's Chad, the neighbors. I'm like, okay, Chad's coming over to have his whiskey in our garage.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Right?

[Jason Waller]

Hey, it worked for a minute.

[Ashley Waller]

Drugs in the safe. Like, a whole thing of coke and, like, Adderall. Like, it was not Adderall. Thing was horrible.

[Kristin Cavallari]

But you wouldn't smell alcohol on him.

[Ashley Waller]

Oh, yeah.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Oh, you would? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know?

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah. I mean, even to the point when he was the scariest thing was, like, I didn't know if I was. I had to go to work. So I'd leave him at home, and I'd think, oh, my God, is he gonna be dead when I get home? Like, I'd have to check him, make sure he's breathing before I left.

[Jason Waller]

And I think that's another important facet, right, Is like, okay, we're talking about me and everything that I went through and the things that I had, you know, and I was able to go to treatment, go get help again and all that. But on the flip side, it's like Ashley had to witness all of this. She had. I mean, there was multiple days and nights where she'd put her head on my chest to see if I was still alive or still breathing. You know, this, the verbal altercations, just all the different stuff. And, like, the family. It's like I go away and get the help I need. But she was left her own devices. Now with a newborn, it's like, hey, go see a therapist and, like, you know, good luck. You know, go to Al Anon. It's like, at the end of the day, it's like she really needed the time to be able to focus on herself as well. And so I think that's something bringing up, and just the importance behind it is. Is how neglected, like, you were in that situation. And so, again, it's bringing light to that is. It's a lot. You know, she went through a ton. And so it's important that individuals that are in that situation really do get the help that they need. Yeah. Because, I mean, she was a pivotal part of me getting the help that I needed. But it goes to show now, looking back, and, I mean, we've done so much work this last five years. I mean, just the amount of therapy and counseling and just the work that we've done together. I mean, church and just. I mean, just really, really deep conversations, because anything worth having is not easy. And it was really hard to go through a lot of those things. But again, as. I literally don't think there's. And I don't. God, please don't challenge us with any other things like that, but I literally don't think there's anything that we haven't walked through. I mean, from some of the most monumental things of patriarchs of your family dying to, you know, I mean, all the stuff we just explained. I mean, there's so much that we've gone through that I really believe it's allotted us this opportunity to really be connected and stronger and. And to share with people, you know, that there is a way out, there is a solution, and that there's. There's a much better life on the other. The other end. And that's. That's the thing, I think, for me, like, when I look at my recovery journey and, like, it's crazy. Like, all this is such a. Like, there's so much that happened. It's like such a freaking blur. Like, there's so much that happened in such a short amount of time like, that. It's like, literally as. Like, I'm mapping things out and, like, as I've. You know, the years have gone by and just looking, it's like I'll remember stuff that I haven't remembered forever. You know, I'm like, oh, my God, where did this even go? Or how did this. You know, where did the time go? Or when did this come up?

[Kristin Cavallari]

That's why I think you guys both sharing your story is incredible because it gives so many people hope. The other thing that gave me a lot of hope, Jason, was we went to lunch recently, and I had said to you that I always thought addicts, in order to change and get help, they needed to want it themselves. And you actually said that's an old school way of thinking. And that, you know, kind of blew my mind. And so I want you to explain that because I think it'll also give a lot of listeners a lot of hope too.

[Jason Waller]

Well, and that's so, I mean the landscape, first of all, the landscape has changed, right? Versus when we were drinking, using and stuff like that. It was, there was very, very, very, very rare that somebody would take something. It would kill them instantly.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

So I think like when you look at fentanyl and you look at all the, you know, just the, the types of drugs that are out there today, the landscape has changed. So I think the landscape has changed so much this day and age. I mean, just in regards to, you know, when, when somebody is struggling, I think it's really important to understand that it's not like it was 15, 20 years ago. I mean fentanyl is out there now and it just. People that aren't even addicts can die instantly, right? So like, you know, having to hit a bottom or you know, things like that to me is, is a little outdated. I think the goal really needs to be, is how do we help somebody stop digging, you know what I mean, and give them, give them the tools and the resources to be able to understand like there is a way out of this. And like when I connect with people, what I try to do is try to inform them with the best education that I possibly can to have them make the most educated determination, choice and, or decision. Right? And so when you look at, I mean for me, right, like my whole story with my parents is, is even back then, like I didn't have enough motivation and to want to do it myself, right? I mean, and I had to grab onto that for, for, for me. And that's what worked at that time. And again, it's different strokes for different folks, but I think it's, people need to really understand. I mean we're, we're dealing with the leading cause of death in America for 50 year old individuals and younger, right? I mean it's something to really take a look at and like, dude, this is, this is obviously serious. And the fact that the average age of first time use in America today is 11 and a half years old, like that is, that's alarming. You know, it's, that's that average parent. It's, that's, that's, it's alarming. And so Again, is. Is that's the average. I mean, kids are experimenting. Seven, eight, nine.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

And so that blows my mind. But I think when we look at all this, like, the real question we need to ask ourselves is like, you know, even when they talk about fentanyl, it's like, there's so much fentanyl here, and there's this fentanyl crisis, which. Which there is not. About all the fentanyl that's here is why is the demand so high?

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah, right, right.

[Jason Waller]

I mean, because if people weren't wanting to use it, it wouldn't be here.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

And so I think that's, again, is something to be able to look at. And I know I've. I've kind of, you know, gone down a rabbit hole with your question, but I think it's just important to look at all of those things that we're facing as a society is. I mean, this is. It's. It's alarming. 46 million people struggle with this.

[Kristin Cavallari]

I know. It really is.

[Ashley Waller]

Sorry, I was just going to say, and if you think about it, if 46 million people struggle with it, I always say there's like one addict. But think about all the people that surround the addict now. All these people are not getting help, not taking care of themselves. There's no wonder why we have a mental health crisis in the world. And everybody has dealt with. Think about that. You have a tornado. You have all these people that the addict has wrecked, manipulated, hurt. Then you have these people thinking that they're the problem or manipulated in certain aspects. And no one's getting help because nobody thinks they're the problem. Right. Really, we're all the problems. We're all the problems.

[Jason Waller]

That's what Kristen opened up. With the 46 million that are out there, then you got. There's probably 150 million that are affected.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

Every single person knows somebody that is struggled with addiction, for sure.

[Ashley Waller]

But I think we're in. I think still the old mentality of it is like, it's not my problem, it's the addict's problem. And it's like, no, it's a family disease or it's a relational disease. It's all of our problems, you know, because if somebody's sick and. And I'm not doing my best part to take care of myself, like the attitude. Exactly. I'm either enabling or I'm being a doormat. Yeah. And that's not healthy for me in any aspect. I mean, that's why I had to go to Alan on if I Didn't I would have been a disaster.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Absolutely.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah.

[Kristin Cavallari]

And understandably so.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah.

[Kristin Cavallari]

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[Jason Waller]

I would turn to you in regards to from the flip side and obviously share my opinion.

[Ashley Waller]

I think the most important thing is your secrets make you sick. So do not lie about what's going on in your relationship or in your house because that's going to keep the disease alive longer than you want it to. Reach out to a professional do not be the addict's psychiatrist or therapist or the person that's in charge of their pills. Do not, because that puts a whole nother pressure on yourself. Do not poke the bear. Like, the most important thing I feel like, is reach out for professional help and guidance instead of being the police.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Okay, that's kind of nice.

[Jason Waller]

I think the main things, right, if somebody's struggling, you know, what I tell people is first of all, acknowledge what they're going through. You know, it's not easy. And then educate yourself. Get informed about what's going on. Understand what addiction is. You know, again, addiction is a disease. It is primary, chronic and progressive, and it's fatal if it's untreated. So understand what you are dealing with. Consult with professionals and seek guidance on what the best next indicated steps are. Addiction and mental health, eating disorder, gambling addictions. It's not a one size fits all model, right? There's no cookie cutter to this. And so I think again is as time has gone on, these diseases have progressed in many ways. Shapes and forms. And so it's really important to get the appropriate help for what that person's struggling with. You know, you can call it same painting, different colors, they all kind of intertwine in some way, shape or form. But it's important to be able to attack what you're dealing with with the best knowledge in that area. And then from there, you know, again is. I think one of the best things is if you have somebody that's struggling, just get plugged into a program. You know, Al Anon's always a great option and always a great resource and allow the professionals. That Ashley was saying, allow the professionals to be the professionals, right? It's like, you got to stay in your lane. Mom and dad need to be mom and dad. They're not the case managers. They're not the therapist, they're not this, the psychologist, they're not the doctor, right? So it's like, it's like if I'm going to, you know, if I'm having a house built and I'm not a contractor, I'm not going to go try to tell the contractor how to build the house, right? So, and that's where I think people, they. That's where codependency comes into play is. Is they think they have power over somebody to change somebody. And at the end of the day, it's really important to understand that nobody has the power to change anybody, but you have the power to change somebody through influence. And that's by you taking Care of yourself by setting those boundaries is going to allow somebody to get help. It's a struggle, you know, and I think for those that are out there, that struggle with addiction, I mean, on my side, like when I really like, the biggest indicators for me that helped me was just really getting honest. Let's be honest, let's be honest. And truly though, like getting open and honest with where I'm at and talking to somebody and really understanding like, hey, look, and I ask yourself the question, like, hey, is this really adding or subtracting to my life? Is this really something that is, is an asset or is this really hindering and causing harm? And you know that deep down in your gut and then from there, you know, reach out to somebody and say, hey, look, I'm not okay? And I need, and I need help. And there's so many people out there, there's millions of people in recovery, you know what I mean? There's, there's so many people that are out there that are in recovery that are willing to help. And, and again, is, is whether you have money, you don't have money, you have insurance, you don't have insurance, there is solutions. There's a lot of people out there, whether it's organizations, whether it's, you know, the 501C3s, there's government run programs, I mean, we have a list, I think, I don't know how many hundreds of Medicaid, Medi Cal, Medicaid, medical facilities that are around in every state. And so there is a way out, you know, and the beautiful thing is that you can really be able to find a life that's worth living again. You know, like I said, it robbed me of everything that I'd had. And today I have purpose, I have passion. I love waking up, I love, like I can look in the mirror and actually say like, I'm a good person today. And I know that. And it was years of not feeling that way. And again, it's like I actually have, like, I love the life I have today, you know, and again, it took a lot of work and I mean, I really should not be here, I really should not be, but by the grace of God that I am, and I'm so grateful that I have that opportunity to be able to be here and just, and I appreciate us even just having this conversation because I think it's so important. It's so important, it means a lot to me. And I think there's a couple other things that this has even taught me, right? Like, like when I was sharing with you when I was younger about how I didn't know how to communicate, right? Like, I mean, I didn't know how, like my parents were there. I had amazing parents and stuff, but they just didn't have the tools or the resources to connect or talk to me. Therapist even. It was kind of like, yeah, we had these surface levels conversations, hey, you take this medication. And through this journey, what this has really allowed me the opportunity again going back to pre genetic disposition with my children. There's a 50, 50 chance that they got this thing. And so what I'm doing at an earlier stage in my life now is to be able to form a connection and communication with my kids. And so every single night. And I've done this for years now. At first it was just a gratitude list with Delilah, and then we'd pray at night. But even at seven years old, to develop trust, a sense of safety and connectivity. I ask her four questions. I say, hey Delilah, what was good today? And she answers and I answer back. And I say, hey, Delilah, what could you improved upon today? She answers, I answer, delia, what are you grateful for today? She answers, I answer, and then the same thing goes with the goal, you know, what's your goal for tomorrow? What that does though, is just in this last six months of it was like I said years before, it was always gratitude. And we implemented this new format, she's starting to come with me when what could I have done better? I was mean to this person, this person was mean to me. And so as silly as that may seem now, I'm developing for a couple years down the road potentially, if, you know, hopefully a little bit later, that if stuff really starts to arise, she knows she has a safe place to be able to come to. And so I see the power in that now. And because that was, I think if I look back, like one of the biggest missing links is even though I had physically present and supportive people around me, I was not able to communicate. And so to have that safe haven for her, to be able to do it. And I'll do the same thing with Wyatt. I'll do the same thing with Mr. Bun in the oven, whatever it is. But those are the things and the tools and the resources that I've learned through this process that I'm beyond grateful for to have, like, that's like the joy for me, you know what I mean? And I'll be the first person in my family in the last three generations that I know of that's raising their kids not under the influence. So I'm breaking the cycle. And again, I'm not against people that can enjoy themselves either. So flip this to flip the script. Like Ashley is a normie. She can drink, she can frickin normies, whatever Normie is.

[Ashley Waller]

Normie can have a glass of wine with her pasta. Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

But it's like, because it's like I still, and I still surround my, like I have friends and stuff that drink and do that stuff. But obviously there was a time in my life where I needed to remove myself from that. And again, still to this day, I mean there's, we'll go to something. I'm like, hey babe, this, I ain't feeling it. We need to go, you know. Yeah, very seldom that that will happen. It does not happen often anymore. And but again as I think it's, it's for those that are out there and whether you think you're struggling with, you know, addiction or alcoholism, you know, again, just ask yourself that question. Is this really adding or subtracting to my life?

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah, I love that. Well, as our kids are getting older now and they, you know, will probably start experimenting with some stuff. How can we tell as parents if it is just kids experimenting, having some fun or if it's something that we really should be paying attention to?

[Jason Waller]

So I'm going to answer this one real quick.

[Ashley Waller]

Okay.

[Jason Waller]

So I always thought growing up, this is so funny. Just like when, you know, I was always like, oh, I'm going to be the fun dad, you know, this is going to be. I could see when I'm like, how do, how do parents. So, you know, why don't they let their kids do stuff? And. But now as I've gotten older, obviously learned the hard way, but also just understanding the statistic of this again, so if you've had any pre genetic disposition with somebody that struggles with substance abuse in your family, there's a probability that it's within there. And again is you don't just have to have the pre genetic disposition. There's environmental, there's, you know, there's, there's factors that also can play into a lot of this. But if you do not drink or use by the age of 21, there's a 90% chance you will never struggle with addiction. 90, 90%.

[Ashley Waller]

Wow.

[Jason Waller]

So flipping the script. Why my children are under my roof.

[Ashley Waller]

Our roof.

[Jason Waller]

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Under our roof.

[Kristin Cavallari]

It's okay. I did what?

[Ashley Waller]

I've done it to you a million times. My daughter.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jason Waller]

But all Jokes aside, is there's gonna be again, no tolerance. There's gonna be a no tolerance, but people are talking about like, well, it's gonna cause rebellion. I'll deal with it as it comes. But knowing that statistic now, and trust me, I will have the communication and I will have the discussions with my kids when it's age appropriate. And Delilah, it's gonna be within a few years when that happens, but I'm gonna again, is gonna be able to share my story, age appropriate level. I'm not going to share everything that I've gone through, but explain what this does and what it's done to our family and how it can really affect you. And again, my job is to inform and provide the best education so they can make an educated decision. You know what I mean? But it's my job. Why my kids? I'm not supposed to be their friends right now. I'm supposed to coach them right now. I'm supposed to be able to help mentor them through this process and allow them to be able to make those decisions as they get older.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jason Waller]

So for me is it's. Why take that chance? If we know that there's, especially with what the world's. I mean, if you. How many people live in the United States? 330 million. I think something around there, but yeah, it's a lot. But if you look at that, but if you look at that and you look at the number that we know and that's. We don't even know. It's probably more than that, that struggle. I mean, it's a high probability that somebody's going to struggle. Right. And so I think everybody should know that, you know, and again, it's not, I'm not, I'm not this, you know, anti person. It's just, it's for me, it's knowing what I know. I want to set our kids up for the best success. And I just know that there's a lot of kids out there that are, that are struggling and looking to feel and be a part of. Like I really think in today's age we're dealing with an identity crisis. I feel like people don't have purpose, they don't have passion and they're not sure where they want to go and they look to substances to feel a part of and connect.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Well, that was me one.

[Jason Waller]

But on the flip side, you and me both.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

I mean that's what it was forever. But did you know what the longest living study is at Harvard? You know what it's around what, alcohol? No, it's around happiness. And do you know what the number one form of happiness is?

[Kristin Cavallari]

Connection.

[Jason Waller]

Human connection.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

And like, I think we all yearn and strive for that. And because, like, even when I was drinking and what did I want to do? I wanted to be connected.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Exactly. Just didn't really know how to. Maybe that was why I was.

[Jason Waller]

I never even thought about that. But really, it's like when I was drinking, I just wanted to be connected and I wanted to be able to drink a lot so I could be acknowledged as life of the party.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Exactly. You know, we were similar in that regard.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah, we were.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Okay, well, then I have another question for you is. Okay, so I will say even in high school, you know, when you were dealing with your issues, you always wanted a connection. So my question is, what about the narcissists and the psychopaths, for example? And if you guys haven't read the psychopath test, that's a phenomenal book. If you have anyone in your life who even remotely resembles that, but those people have no empathy. They don't really want to connect. So if you have an addict who's a narcissist, this, let's say, is the prop. The probability of them getting sober much lower because of that. Like, do you have to want that connection with people to get sober?

[Jason Waller]

That's such a deep question, Kristen.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Sorry.

[Jason Waller]

I mean, like, phone a friend. Can I call the doctor?

[Kristin Cavallari]

Call a doctor?

[Jason Waller]

No, I mean, that's, that's a, that's a. I mean, that's a very complex question. And again, I want to be able to stay in my lane with this. I think that's a fantastic question. But I don't have, like, from a, A, A clinical perspective and a clinical background. I don't know enough to be able to tell you exactly, like, what that looks like. But I think, I think for me, I think anybody has the opportunity to achieve, you know, complete abstinence of drugs and alcohol. And again, is. Is that's imperative for you to be able to deal with the underlying issue, whether it's narcissism, whether it's mania, whether it's depression, whether it's anxiety, whatever it is, you gotta again, actively arrest the disease to be able to deal with the underlying issue. Because you need to understand drugs and alcohol are not the problem that is the solution. The underlying issues is me. The drugs and alcohol were the things I turned to feel relief. Right. And so I think when you look at that, I think there's people that I think anybody can Improve, I'll tell you that much I think again is whether however severe or whatever it is that they're dealing with, I know that the brain has got a ton of elasticity. Elasticity and has the ability to change. But I mean that's a complex question that you have there. And again is that's why I tell people it's so important you have to work a program for anybody, whether you're dealing with severe mental health issues or whatever the underlying pieces may be. Because there's a big difference between being abstinence drugs and alcohol versus living a life in recovery. And what I mean by that is you can, you can be abstinence of drugs and alcohol, but still have the behaviors and the mannerisms of an alcoholic.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Oh, interesting. Right, that makes sense.

[Jason Waller]

So it's, it's like this and that's where you hear people like they're, they're white. Knock. Well, another white knuckling it. White knuckling. What's the other frickin term that people. Dry drunk. You know what I mean? You hear those?

[Kristin Cavallari]

I've never heard that one. Isn't Cali sober. No alcohol, but you can smoke weed.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Is that.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah, Marijuana is a whole nother subject.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah, right, right.

[Jason Waller]

Come back for that one.

[Kristin Cavallari]

That'll be another episode.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah, we come back to that one. That's. I, I'll just put it out. There is again, it's, it's just what I've learned in my knowledge around it is just with the potency of marijuana nowadays, people always think it's so harmless. The THC components are so high that your body can't synthesize it, which puts people into psychosis that they're not coming. Oh my God.

[Ashley Waller]

So it's like now these people are living in psychosis and having all different kinds of issues. Oh my gosh.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Especially different than it was like when we were growing up.

[Jason Waller]

THC, I mean it's, it's at 100% concentrate. It's so high now. So again there's a whole nother level with that. And again, I'm not. I just, I learn from doctors and I share the information that they share with me, but they can talk at a much deeper level. But again, as I've seen a lot of kids, kids that come in that, that have, that have been in psychosis from marijuana that it's taken six months to a year to come out of and sometimes they haven't come out of it at all.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Oh my God.

[Ashley Waller]

And if you have, what did you say? A history of schizophrenia in your family? It can.

[Jason Waller]

Yeah. So if you have it, like activates it, if you can, if you have a history of schizophrenia or you have a history of like, severe mental health issues like psilocybin.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Oh, yeah, that's a hot topic right now.

[Jason Waller]

Psilocybin, marijuana. Those can trigger and actually make it.

[Ashley Waller]

Permanent, put you in there permanently.

[Kristin Cavallari]

I mean, if that's not reason enough to not do any stuff, you know. Yeah, it's a different world now, unfortunately for these kids, or maybe fortunately, you know, depending on how you look at it. Since it is the holiday season right now, what are tips or advice that you guys can give people going through this of how to stay sober, how you can be supportive for the people in your life? Just everything right now when it comes.

[Jason Waller]

To holidays, you know, there. There can be very triggering moments, whether it's you're spending time with family, certain friends. Again, look, if you're early in this, you know, you got to put your sobriety at the number one priority. And if it's something that you shouldn't be around at that time, maybe look at not going just this time. If it's something that you really feel like you need to be a part of, bring somebody that can be supportive with you. You know, I mean, there was things in early sobriety that we went to that, that I had Ashley as my supporter. I even brought a couple people that were in recovery with me that were supportive, but also have an exit strategy. Right. So if you're. If you're in an uncomfortable environment, it's sometimes say you go to Thanksgiving dinner or you go to Christmas. It's a 50 50. Sometimes it's a great gathering, and sometimes it gets crazy. Literally have an exit strategy where it's like, you know, you have to make it some big loud thing. You can come up with the code word. We used to have that when we were filming Hot Dog. You know, it's like, we're out of here, we're out of here. So whatever that code word may be, but get yourself in a position where you can get out. And then the other thing is have people on standby, you know, especially if you're going to go to something or be around where it could be triggering. And again, it's not like it's going to. If it doesn't even want to make you Dr. Drink, but just causes stress, anxiety. Have a couple people that on speed dial that you can connect with and just be able to be open. I think the biggest thing people can do is communicate.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah. Having that community of people.

[Ashley Waller]

I was just going to say, make sure that you're going to more meetings that you would think you would need to go to. So there's a lot of Al Anon meetings that are available through Zoom. There's some that are locally in the area. If you just go to Al Anon.com, it will show you all the kinds of meetings. So I think that that's really important if you have somebody that. That's in the family that's an alcoholic or someone that's struggling and you're nervous about them coming also, I think just being kind about their addiction and empathetic and understanding, always have other kinds of options. If you're normally a big drinking family of somebody that's newly sober coming into the family environment, I think it's really important to maybe not have alcohol at that one event. Not because you're trying to be codependent, but it's supportive.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Exactly.

[Ashley Waller]

You know, you're not trying to, you know.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Okay, I love that. And then what's next for you guys? And where can everybody find you, too?

[Jason Waller]

Yeah.

[Kristin Cavallari]

To plug all your stuff.

[Jason Waller]

Go ahead, sweetheart.

[Ashley Waller]

Okay. Well, just on Instagram at Ashley Waller, and I actually try and answer, like, if you have a question or you have somebody that's struggling, I try and answer all my dms. So if you have a specific question, DM me, and I'll try and do my best to answer you.

[Kristin Cavallari]

That's very cool that you do that. You don't do that. Jason.

[Jason Waller]

Come on.

[Kristin Cavallari]

You don't have enough on your plate?

[Ashley Waller]

He hasn't looked at my messages for the last week. Week. All my gifts and memes.

[Kristin Cavallari]

He doesn't even respond to text messages.

[Jason Waller]

Come on, man.

[Ashley Waller]

His assistant does for me.

[Jason Waller]

Geez, tough crowd. What's the question?

[Kristin Cavallari]

Well, just. So where can people find you and just what's next for you guys? What do you guys have coming up?

[Jason Waller]

People can find us. Yeah, Instagram.

[Ashley Waller]

Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

Jason Waller, I try to get back to you.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah, right.

[Jason Waller]

I do. You know, Ashley's better than me at that. And then. No, we actually. I mean, obviously I've been working with Daniel Dr. Amen, for the last couple years with Change of Brain, which has been incredible, actually. Been working with Sober. Sure. Which is another incredible product, which is the first ever transdermal alcohol monitoring detection band.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Oh, my gosh. You told me about this, like, a year ago. So you're doing that now?

[Jason Waller]

Doing that. It's incredible.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Explain that.

[Jason Waller]

So basically, sobersure is. Is like another tool, like a Breathalyzer. But it's, it looks just like a Fitbit. It's like a fitness wearable where it, through sweat, it detects if a person is drinking or not. It's got GPS tracking, band removal notification. So it's, it's a really good tool for, you know, teen drivers. Oh yeah, it could be a huge asset in that area. It could be very, very beneficial. When it comes to people coming out of recovery, reestablishing trust and safety, people that are coming and dealing with incarceration, there's a lot of different areas that it can come into play. It's awesome to see, you know, just more tools and resources coming to the table. And it's, it's a lot more humane than, you know, a breathalyzer. It's like, you know, you're out on a date. It's like, hey, hold on, I'll be right back. Gotta go blow, gotta run to the bathroom. Yeah. And it just, it monitors and again, it's the areas that I've really seen it be beneficial too is for, you know, people that are coming out of, out of treatment. Give you a specific case on that is when, you know, a husband and wife, they had little kids and the husband was, you know, drinking with the kids in the car and stuff like that and they didn't want to separate. Obvious, you know, to separate as far as a marriage, but, you know, as far as reestablishing and building trust, again, like the wife's like, hey, look, you're going to have to wear this. You know, especially when I'm at work and gone. But there's a lot of ways that it can come into play. And then the other thing I've obviously been working on for the last four years is with Alist, which is the first ever JCO accredited at home treatment provider. It's been amazing working with them the last few years. And the thing that I'm most excited about is Ashley and I are going to relaunch Jaws, which is based basically Jason and Ashley Waller stories, which was we. The first time we did it was when we walked after everything we just explained to you. We filmed for a year walking what it was like going through the first year of sobriety. And so we'd come on every week and talk about the challenges and stuff we went through.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Yeah.

[Jason Waller]

And so we're going to talk about five years later where we're at, what we're doing. And so it's an opportunity for us to get connected and get closer, but also to share what we're doing and how we're growing.

[Kristin Cavallari]

Exactly. Connect with other people and give people hope, honestly. Because. Because ultimately that's. I think, what your story does is it gives people a lot of hope. So I really appreciate you guys being here. Thank you.

[Jason Waller]

Thank you for having me.

[Ashley Waller]

Thank you for having us. I love.