A (2:48)

Hearing you say it's like a fashion week is so interesting and pretty spot on. Like, you've got people who are coming in who are interested in engaging with brands, but then you also have the industry facing side of it. Obviously, Fashion Week is important when you're in New York, and when you're in Paris, Milan, London, all the editors are there. And Fashion Week really started because brands would show their collections for buyers to come in. But I also think that, like, there's this whole other level to it where it's, like, brands have this opportunity to meet their consumers where they're at. And brands like Thom Brown doing their show during the super bowl instead of New York Fashion Week, for a brand that has so many themes of, like, prep and the football symbolism and things like that in there is a big risk, but if you do it right, huge reward. Because that alignment is so spot on.

B (3:37)

And they really did it right. Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up, because I was speaking about super bowl being a fashion weekend. Obviously, I forgot to mention the two fashion shows that happen, but, like, Thom Brown being one of them. And like you say, they really did it right. And I think it makes so much. It wouldn't make sense for all brands, but it makes sense for a brand. Sorry, like Thom Browne, just because of how kind of established and respected it is. Already. Already have those relationships with the buyers, the media note, like, it's not missing out on anything by not showing up at New York Fashion Week. And I think instead of just being another show or like an expected show on the calendar of New York Fashion Week, it was very smart of them to. To partner with GQ for this, for this event and gain some real traction. And I think significantly more media value and exposure than if they'd done a regular on calendar show at New York Fashion Week. And like you say, it makes a lot of sense. It's not just a random brand doing it. Thom Browne has a deep Relationship to football. Tom Brown, as in the person Tom Brown. The brand also has a deep relationship to sport as well. And you kind of go back years to when we first started seeing athletes showing up in interesting fashion fits at the Met Gala, for example. It was like Russell Westbrook turning up in the Thom Browne skirt, which was a really big moment. And I think that kind of long term relationship to sport really validates a brand showing up at the Super Bowl. And there was integration across the kind of moment as well. I can't remember who it was, but just before the national anthem, there was another song played and the performer was also wearing a really interesting Thom Brown outfit, which I thought was like a really, like, smart. It's not like they just did an isolated show with some of the players and all of that. It was like a real, really considered strategic presence across the. Across the weekend, which. Which I thought was really smart.

A (5:21)

I also thought it was so genius that they launched an A6 collaboration during the Super Bowl. Like, that landed for me 10 times better than it would have during New York Fashion Week.

B (5:31)

Exactly. And I think again, it's just really smart. They didn't just do like a. It wasn't like a gimmicky, oh, we're going to do like an awful. It was a real. It was a genuine fashion show where, you know, as they often do, like, brow brands will tease a new collection. And like you say, launching an Asics collaboration in the middle of like the Super Bowl, a big supporting event, it just, it makes so much sense. So I, that also stood out to me.

A (5:52)

And I love the shoes. The gray ones are so cool. I was like, okay, those, this works. This is working for me. My marketing brain is being scratched. I loved it.

B (6:01)

Those shoes, they'll sell the shoes.

A (6:03)

So I want to zoom out before we continue to zoom in because I feel like you and I could go like, deep in the nitty gritty of things for a while. The NFL has been setting up an infrastructure to make it more of a fashionable enterprise for a few years now. They brought on Kyle Smith last year, who's their first ever fashion editor, who has also been helping style a lot of the players for games and really just bringing a lot more of a fashionable aspect to the enterprise. So I want to hear from you a little bit on the why you think that's happening and what the infrastructure really looks like on the inside.

B (6:38)

Yeah. And to give people context. Like when I first started writing about the business worlds of fashion and sport and I was kind of like looking just Looking at the sports that I would speak about frequently, like, football was nowhere near. Like, the NFL was never considered a league that had anything to do with the fashion world. Like, no way. Compared to, like, sports like soccer or basketball or tennis, like, the NFL and football just didn't even come close. And that's not to say that there weren't fashionable people who play the sport or anything like that. It was more so like the kind of. When you think about sports that lend themselves to fashion, they're very rarely the sports that have the athletes covered up head to toe during the game because it's very hard to kind of like, build visual relationships with those players and kind of, like, build things around them. It's very hard because they don't have that kind of visual facial exposure during the game, which is when most people are watching. But over the last, say, two years, I think the NFL has been the biggest grower in terms of sports that have come from nowhere in a fashion context and really been influential in the core of the fashion industry. And a lot of that is thanks to the intentional strategic work that the league has done to align itself with the fashion industry. And that has coupled, in a sporting sense, with the league wanting to become more international. So now the NFL plays international games in several cities around the world. I think next season to be playing in, like, Melbourne, London, Paris, which will be a new one, Madrid, Berlin, and I think Ireland, too, Dublin. So I think it's no coincidence that the league's expansion into cultural avenues like fashion has been simultaneous to its kind of, like, global expansion, because the two really go hand in hand. Like, the league is trying to court consumers and fans who didn't know about football before and may be tangentially linked, but weren't really that involved. And another way to do that is going after groups of consumers who so far have maybe felt either underrepresented by the sport or didn't really have points of connection. Fashion is a great way to do that. And like you mentioned, Kyle Smith, who was made the fashion editor of the NFL recently, really kind of has been central to that. And I've written a lot about how, as a sports league, wanting to enter fashion or any kind of sports organization, you need to have institutional knowledge from the fashion industry. And Carl Smith is the best example of that. Like, the best example. He came from a styling background. He will tell you, he'll be the first to tell you, he did not know the single thing about football before. He did not know any of the players. All of that. And that really helped because he came in and he was able to make frank assessments of styling and choices that the league was making in the fashion world. And his impact really has been kind of felt in so many different ways, both like, league wide, but also on a player to player level. If you look at the relationship he's built with players like Joe Burrow, for example, they're close, close friends now, and it's more just like the way he sits down with each player and understands what they need or what they want in terms of styling, or maybe even not what they want because they don't know, but what be helpful for them. And he's led to so many different interesting moments that have really pushed the NFL forward in the fashion context. When Joe Burrow and one other player worked and walked. Sorry. In the Vogue World show in Paris ahead of the Olympics. And Joe Borough wore that now famous, like, backless suit or backless blazer, I should say. And I think that was like a really iconic moment that traveled around the fashion world. And it was the first time, I think NFL players have been seen in that context. And that, like, that's a really good kind of, like, example of how far the NFL has come in its journey. And fashion.

A (10:14)

Framing him like a translator, I think is so important because someone like me, who doesn't know the first thing about, again, football, I can't even tell you what's going on in the game. To have someone who also joined the league but is able to translate the two worlds and be that connector, I think was the smartest move they could have made to make the NFL more appetizing to fashion brands and fashion people who might not have ever touched the sport before.

B (10:44)

Yeah, absolutely. I've always said, like, I've had a funny career where, like, I started working in law and then sports law, and I've always been connected to sports, but, like, I've always had this kind of impression that people in sports know nothing about fashion and people in fashion know very little about sports.

A (10:57)

Right.

B (10:58)

And in the middle, there's the tiniest layer of people who know about both, and that's where the value is. And Carl Smith now is one of those people who, like, at first, like, had zero exposure to the sports industry, but he was able to come in with, like, this complete, fresh perspective that has helped the NFL leapfrog so many other established kind of organizations and leagues. So many of those athletes leapfrog other athletes and other sports that were better suited for fashion. And his value has been incredible. And I think it Works the same way as well. All the brands that we see in fashion that are doing well in the sports world have people in them with institutional knowledge about the sports industry. And it really shows like you can tell the brands that do and don't. And I think it's so important and often overlooked.

A (11:38)

What's a brand that you know that does that you think absolutely kills it.

B (11:42)

I think brands like, I mean, Thom Browne for one, Brown for one, Jacques Moose as well, I think some of the things they do in sport, like really smart and it's no coincidence with the people they have behind them on as well. Obviously it's a sportswear brand, but like the highest they've made from the fashion industry from the very beginning have been so smart. Even like if you think back to on's first ever collaboration, which was with Loewe Jonathan Anderson, like that doesn't come about by coincidence. That's because there's institutional knowledge and connections that have helped them navigate the fashion industry to get to someone like that. And that's like, that's borne out throughout the rest of the trajectory. So I think brands like that like clearly have hired correctly and not just going about it like with a scattergun approach.

A (12:22)

Well, of all brands that I think have killed it, I think Adidas had quite a day yesterday. It was amazing to see. I know you and I talked about it. We were like, is he, isn't he going to wear it? And I think what's interesting when you look at brands and their integration into the super bowl weekend, there are so many of different avenues they could take, right? They can try to get someone to wear it, they can try to pay to have a commercial. Like there are so many different ways they can be integrated into the Super Bowl. And seeing Adidas all over the halftime show and get so much media value out of it and not even have to do a commercial was a slam dunk for them. What did you think about Adidas yesterday?

B (12:59)

Yeah, I think like you say, there's so many different avenues a brand can take to show up at the Super Bowl. I think I've written about, I wrote about this last week when I was speaking about the big moment Adidas could have if this happened. But I think there are so many different ways you could do it. But one of the most expensive, I mean the most expensive way for sure is having a commercial. You can pay $7 million for a 30 second commercial. The stats across thousands of other similar commercials, that's like inundating people throughout the game. And that they might not see. Or you can be lucky enough to have a collaborator like Adidas who's the hottest artist in music right now, who also just happens to have a signature sneaker coming up with your brand and you can wear it on stage. And that's what happened. And that's, I mean it's not free because Adidas is obviously paying him loads of money to be their partner. But in the grand scheme of things, it's completely free because Adidas gets completely free marketing for its brand new shoe that it's about to launch with him. And I guess to give people context, in the past when people have worn certain products from certain brands that were unexpected or kind of like nice surprises, it's really turbocharged brands popularity. Like the first super bowl that I ever kind of covered from a fashion, sports journalism perspective was in 2023 when Rihanna wore Salomon sneakers. And that was the crowning moment for Salomon's growth from a nerdy outdoor footwear brand to this fashion shoe. And the exposure it got was incredible. And it really continued to turbocharge its growth for the next few years. It's just worth its weight in gold. And like we said, Adidas could have paid for a splashy ad and might have got some traction from it there. But two, three days after the Super Bowl, I don't know how many people remember what ads run and what didn't, but I think those images of Bad Bunny performing will endure in people's minds for so long for so many reasons that we all know. But it was such an iconic, like beautifully produced show and those images will live on in people's minds. And I think people, so many communities and so many consumers will have emotional connections to that moment. And Adidas product is right there. And I mean same for Zara is that he wore a custom Zara look. And I don't think anyone expected that. So two big wins.

A (15:13)

The custom Zara look completely blew my mind for a lot of reasons. I mean one, he wore custom Schiaparelli just a week ago to win a Grammy. And a complete pivot 180 to then wearing custom Zara for one of the biggest moments of his career. One of the most televised moments for him for sure. And I think one, when I thought so many things when I first saw it, I was like, okay, one, this is a performance that is for the people. This is for everybody. And so in my mind going, Zara, of course I understand, it's accessible, it's affordable for everybody watching the show, right Now. But I also immediately started to think about what a kind of groundbreaking move this was for Zara, who hasn't really done something like this before. I think they've done maybe one thing in the past in the custom lane, but this was a huge moment for Zara, and I immediately thought about Zac Posen and what he's doing with Gap and how he's beginning to do, you know, these custom looks for the red carpet and dressing celebrities and. And I'm like, ooh, is Zara taking a page out of that playbook and really trying to make the brand seem more quote, unquote, high fashion? I thought it was interesting.

B (16:27)

Me too. I thought it was fascinating for all those reasons, and I didn't see it coming, but I really enjoyed it. I thought it was fun. I thought it looks incredible as well. But like you say, I think one time I'd love to do, like, an episode or a newsletter on the economics and the politics of getting a look like that placed, because I can't even imagine how much, like, wrangling and negotiations went on behind the scenes to make sure that look was placed and arranged along with the Adidas thing, because it just. It was. It must have taken so many different parties, so many different agreements, and. And it was amazing. But I agree, I think it really fits into, like, Zara's push to be. To be, like, seen also in, like, a more elevated context. And I know over the years they've kind of, like, tried with, like, various different collaborations that haven't always landed. And I think a strategy, like, having someone like Zac Posen who's done amazing things at Gap and really helped to kind of, like, revive, like, perceptions of Gap in, like, higher levels of dressing is the way to go. But this, yeah, is a huge moment, and hopefully they'll be able to build off the momentum from something like this. To be. To be kind of, like, have that other level to their product category as well.

A (17:35)

Customzara. Never thought I'd ever see that sentence.

B (17:38)

No custom Zara on Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl.

A (17:43)

I opened up the Vogue coverage of it because obviously Vogue got the exclusive on it. And I was expecting, like, I was like, oh, an all white suit. Like, maybe it's Jacques Moose. Like, what are we doing here? And the minute it said custom Zahra, I was like, wow, what a win. I'm so curious to see what this now kicks off for Zahra. Like, are we going to see it on a red carpet? I wouldn't be surprised if we are. I mean, I think Again, Gap Inc. Has really set precedent for that. I mean, Claire Danes just now at the Golden Globes was in custom Gap. I'm so curious to see what this opens up.

B (18:17)

Yeah, I feel like it's a real trend at the moment or for the past couple of years, those kind of mass market retailers trying to push further up market and do celebrity dressing and things like that or designer collaborations. And I think Uniqlo as well has tried in the past that have those lines with different designers and all these things. But I feel like Gap is the real leader in that pack and it's a very enviable place to be as a mass market retailer to also have that kind of like element of celebrity dressing and, and, and custom looks. So I have no doubt that Zara is trying to get in that lane too.

A (18:51)

Back to Adidas. I saw this morning that his sneaker sold out, which he was wearing yesterday during the Super Bowl. His custom Adidas, the bad bow one, right? Yeah, completely sold out this morning.

B (19:03)

Yeah. I mean, yeah, this is like Adidas will be. So you can't make this kind of stuff up as a sneaker brand. Like you can't write this kind of thing. And also, just to give people context about the significance of Bad Bunny to Adidas, he really is one of those, one of a kind collaborators and partners that can really turbocharge a brand, especially for Adidas. In the wake of losing their relationship with Kanye West a few years ago in 2023, they've really been kind of like searching for, for like another person to take that like figurehead post and like in terms of someone who's perfectly connected to like the world of sport, music, culture, like Bad Bunny is that person and like they didn't have to go and find him. He was already a part of the brand since I think maybe like 2020 or 2021. And originally Adidas worked with him to kind of like help with the brand's exposure among Latino consumers and in the Latin American market. But his profile has grown so much and so organically over the last years that he's become one of maybe Adidas most important collaborators. And far more to be seen equally on the same level as Lionel Messi, for example. And that is no small feat. And the fact that Adidas has given him so much leeway with his kind of own brand, his own sneaker now is, is a real, is a really important kind of like indicator of how significant he is to the brand from a commercial perspective. And yeah, I mean, when you can tie like people's insane fandom of one person who's attached to your brand with products like that's, that's like, that's gold dust. And of course it's going to sell out and they'll restock it, it will sell out again. And that's, that's the best possible way you can launch a signature sneaker. And no one could have predicted that, that these things would line up so nicely. But I think it was really smart. And I think they first, they did a first like tiny release on the day of his Grammy win or the day after and it was like, it was like 1,990 something pairs like whatever the year of his birth was.

A (21:01)

Yeah.

B (21:01)

And it was smart. Like just release a few, like get the product out there, like a few lucky fans get it and that's like the best thing ever. And people like us will be like, oh, Adidas was smart. And they hit release on that shoe and I just think it's really smart business. And, and when they do the wider release again, I'm sure it'll be just as successful. And I saw on our mutual friend Maria's data but make it fashion page this morning about how the popularity of those Adidas models is soaring.

A (21:27)

So I mean, let's see, I can pull it up. I think she said, let's see. Maday, we love you 20%.

B (21:34)

I saw but I can't remember which.

A (21:36)

Okay. She said Adidas watching bad bunnies super bowl increase their popularity by 20% in just one day. Yep. I also would love to know how the Zara stock is going to do this week.

B (21:47)

I know, I mean, yeah, it's perfect. Perfect exposure.

A (21:51)

Perfect exposure for them both. I want to talk about some things that didn't work. What did you think about Abercrombie?

B (21:57)

I was at the Abercrombie show on Saturday and it was interesting. I thought like, so they obviously have kind of collaborated with the NFL for a few years and last year they announced it become like a full blown like league wide partnership. And they've been working with various different athletes to kind of incorporate them into the marketing and things like that. The show itself wasn't really for me like a full blown fashion show. It was more like a, I guess they called it a presentation. And I thought I was going into it to see like a full on show, but it was more just a presentation of sorts, like very small gathering. There can't have been more than like 50 people in the room. But like several of the athletes walked in the show like Cooper De Jean and. Sorry, several NFL athletes and T. Higgins, Christian McCaffrey, like, quite a few. And I thought, like, the. Compared to the Thom Browne show, which was obviously more of a traditional fashion show, this felt a bit like, light hearted, very fun and gimmicky and silly. It was just like they didn't take themselves too seriously and the players were having fun. And at the same time, I didn't really get the impression that the clothes were the main draw. I think it was more Abercrombie, like, showing off and kind of like signaling that it has that proximity and relationship to the NFL. And I think that was the main part of it. I think more could have been done to make it into a full blown kind of like, show, because I think that's initially how it was branded and pitched. But yeah, it was definitely very different to the Tom Brown, like, what we saw at Tom Brown. Understandably.

A (23:28)

I too thought it was going to be a big show. And I also think that, like, in this era where we're seeing the revival of so many brands, right, like, we can go back to Gap and talking about all their brands having such a big moment. We can talk about Victoria's Secret, who I think has overcome a lot of different hurdles and was able to really come out on top last fall with an incredible show that so many people attended, wanted to get behind and support. I feel like this moment could have been a real moment for Abercrombie to make a strong comeback. I was so surprised when I saw the coverage of it and it looked like just like a tiny, like, people walked out from behind a curtain and then like, went back and it was like, I think only 10 to 15 looks. I thought it could have been so much more.

B (24:14)

It definitely could have been more. It reminded me of, like, I think they had the ingredients there for something that could have been like, really big. And I thought the. The kind of the set design was interesting, like, that they kind of created this, like, American, like, preppy clubhouse vibe and. And all of that. I just thought it reminded me of so many partnerships that I've seen that, like, maybe in the first year, don't, like, hit it, get it off the mark, like, in the best and, like, most interesting possible way. And I think maybe they went a bit small with it. I think they had so many good athletes and people walk the show, but I think they could have shown off more looks. I think they could have, like, had regular models walk the Runway if they needed more people, but I think they just kept it to the athletes and the friends of the brand from the world of sport to walk in it. So I think maybe they kind of limited themselves in how big they could have gone. I'd be interested to see in future years if they decide that that was worthwhile and they're going to do it and if they do, if they're going to do it on a wider scale too. But yeah, I agree. I think I was also surprised and maybe a few other people were with how kind of like low key it was.

A (25:17)

What do you think is in store for the future of that relationship? I know you just mentioned you're curious to see what happens down the line, but for a brand that has like a partnership with the NFL, it's the only brand that has that level of a partnership. I would think that there would be so much more. So I'm curious if you think that that relationship is going to persevere or if someone's going to try and come in and take that slot.

B (25:39)

I'm sure, I mean, I don't know how long they have the contract for, but I'm sure that's going to be a hot ticket. Like when, whenever it's up for renewal. I think over the next few years though, I'm sure Abercrombie will get more kind of like extreme aggressive and explore more opportunities that it has within the NFL world. I think the fact that the NFL is now going more international, there's scope for Abercrombie pop ups at these moments all around the world. And I think sometimes brands just like having these partnerships because of the kind of associated benefits they get from the proximity to these leagues. And I think we saw Balenciaga partner with the NBA on a collaboration recently. And I think sometimes just having the relationship so they can bring guests, press, VIP clients is also very valuable. And sometimes we expect them to have these big marketing moments and these shows and all of that. And sometimes their ROI maybe isn't as good as the benefits they get. Being able to bring people into the world of that sport and have that proximity there. So I do think we'll see them press forward with more activations. I think having a relationship like this though, I think you have to try and find a way to incorporate your brand into a future halftime show. I think that seems to me like the best. Yeah, have that in. I don't know how it works behind the scenes, but like when you have that kind of in, there must be a way that you can incorporate your brand a bit more into that like grandstand moment that everyone, the whole world Is watching.

A (27:02)

Is there a brand that you think would be primed for that?

B (27:05)

I mean, so many. I'm trying to think. I mean, I would love to. I would love to see like we spoke before about like Jack Moose, but I would love to see Jack Moose like in the. When I first saw him wearing that suit, I thought he was wearing like you say, Jacques Mousse. But like, I would love to see. That would be a really cool. I don't think that would work as like a fashion partner for the NFL league wide, but I would love to see a partner like that that take the reins one time in the halftime show.

A (27:30)

I also could see this other approach of going through the mall brands. I could see a gap. I could see an old Navy situation. But yeah, I think whatever brand it is, they need to come in and do something that feels a bit more integrated. So it doesn't feel like this one off thing that doesn't really work.

B (27:49)

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think gap would be fascinating for me. I really wish skims had partnered with the NFL instead of the NBA. Skims would be amazing. And I think the thing is skims obviously works with the NBA and USA Basketball in general, but I think basketball has been so saturated from a fashion and brand perspective for so long that for some reason I don't see skims pop up that much in relation to the NBA or USA Basketball aside from around the Olympics. And I think there's a real miss. I'm sure that's a very expensive partnership. I think they could have had way more cut through with the NFL. And I think I would love to see one day down the line skims be the official partner of some capacity with the NFL. I think when it comes to staging shows and show business and all the things that are associated with the Super Bowl, I feel like skims is the brand prime to make the most of that kind of opportunity.

A (28:43)

I also would love to see more in the hockey space. Like, I feel like Winter Olympics are having a big thing right now. Obviously there's no comparison the to the NFL and basketball and tennis. Of course these are getting like way less eyeballs. But with the Olympics, Winter Olympics right now we're seeing so much winter sport and obviously right off of heated rivalry. I feel like everybody loves a hockey moment. So I would love to see a little bit more there. I don't know if it's like worth the investment for brands. What do you think?

B (29:08)

I think obviously like you say sports wide, those individual sports will never have the visibility or kind of global interest as basketball, soccer or tennis. But I think the good thing about where sports is at right now culturally and in terms of its relationship to the fashion industry, there are so many cultural avenues and trends and moments that have thrown forward these figureheads of these other sports. So just because the sport itself, of let's say hockey or ice skating or figure skating is not a globally renowned sport or not a sport that's followed throughout the four years in between each Olympics, I think individual athletes are now being held as cultural figureheads and that makes them as individuals, perfect partners for brands. So I don't think that brands need to worry anymore that, that a sport like hockey is maybe not as globally followed. I think like individual athletes, they can or people like for example the cast of heated rivalry like that, that still counts as like having a connection to sport even though it's a fictional show. I think there are so many different opportunities now. And I look at the world of track and field, for example, which is traditionally like obviously a, a world that the eyes of, of the like the popular global population are on like once every four years, typically for the Olympics. And it's a sport, it's so unique in the sense that it's a sport that has such avid attention and fandom in short spikes once every four years. But now we've seen so many interesting individual athletes from that sport become year round stars because of the increased visibility of social media and the increased interest of brands to work with individual athletes, regardless of the overall popularity of the sport itself.

A (30:54)

You wrote a story on your substack that I absolutely loved and it was about how brands can use sports almost like a cultural palette cleanser. Balenciaga had just done that collaboration and obviously Balenciaga has had quite a reputational miss in the last five years. And I think, you know, you wrote this story saying that sports can often be palate cleanser, a way to kind of neutralize things and reach a really mass audience. I think Balenciaga doing a athletic collaboration is super interesting and really I think not in what we know Balenciaga for, but I would love to hear your thoughts on why you think sport can really change or almost level the playing field for a brand.

B (31:39)

Yeah, I mean speaking of leveling, sports is the one great equalizer, like sports is the one, one great equalizer. It's like the most democratic, universally understood, accepted language in the world. And sport cuts across so many different social levels, political divides, demographic divides, ethnic divides, all of these things that kind of make up our society. And lives as humans, sport cuts across them all. And really, aside from maybe music, it's the one thing that can do that. And I think as a result, there's a lot of power in harnessing that universal love and appreciation of sport to, let's say, wipe the slate clean from previous kind of perceptions or connotations associated to your brand. And I think that has to be one of the reasons why Balenciaga have done what they've done in sport, like partnering with the NBA and also simultaneously launching kind of like sports inspired activewear type collection. I think having an association to sports and especially to a popular sport like basketball brings with it a lot of popular cultural associations. And I think for a very long time, Balenciaga has now been known as the brand that spoke to a very specific type of consumer. Had that relationship between Demna and Kanye and all these different things, and then had that subsequent kind of scandal. And even though it's been several years since that now, often just anecdotally when I hear Balenciaga brought up in fashion circles and life cycles, whatever, someone always brings up the fact that that brand has been in a bit of trouble. And that to me is a sign that even though it's been a while and structurally and they haven't created directs and all that, they've moved past that. I think the kind of after effects of that kind of things still linger. So moving into sport is firstly where the industry overall is headed. Luxury brands now all want that association with sport, like lvmh, partnering with Formula One, all of these different things. I think it's a smart play just to kind of like have that association to something that's far outside the fashion industry, but at the same time brings with a lot of like star power, a lot of credibility, a lot of like universal appeal.

A (34:00)

Do you think it worked? Do you think that Balenciaga activewear really moved the needle?

B (34:05)

I mean, I think it's early days. I don't think a Balenciaga activewear collection will move the needle in any big way. But I think having a partner like the NBA is smart. And I don't know if that's gonna be a longer term relationship if that was a one off thing. But I do think again, having the ability to bring media, to bring influencers associated to your brand, to bring VIP clients, celebrities into the world of NBA via Balenciaga, I think that is super smart and the benefits of that are like, significant. I saw people posting about Balenciaga that haven't posted about Balenciaga. Or written about Balenciaga in years.

A (34:38)

So it works.

B (34:40)

Brought them to the game and sat in NBA London or NBA Berlin or wherever it was. So I think that that in itself just shows how powerful these moments are because everyone wants to go to the NBA, everyone wants to sit court side of the NBA and like being able to be a brand that can facilitate that is very smart.

A (34:56)

Is there another brand that you think is using sport in a really good.

B (35:00)

Way on is a sportswear brand. But, but I mean like, I think the way they, they've used sport is fascinating because they don't. They're case in point for brand that doesn't really like mind about going to a sport outside of what's popular. They. I wrote about it a couple of months back, but they kind of launched a new collection with this Japanese retailer fashion brand called Beams. And it was kind of a really cool like sports inspired streetwear collection type thing with a shoe and everything like that. But they didn't get an athlete to promote it. They didn't get like. Or they didn't get a traditional athlete to promote it and they didn't get like a celebrity. They got this guy called Kurt Steiner who's like the world record stone skimmer skipper. Yeah, it's a really cool, it's a really cool campaign. It's so beautiful. It's all about the power of mountains and nature. And it's shot in like three different kind of like mountain ranges that are relevant to Ono and the collection. So one was in Japan, I think one was in Switzerland and this one was shot in the Pacific Northwest with this dude, Kurt Steiner, who is like the LeBron James of stone, stone skipping.

A (35:55)

This is unbelievable.

B (35:57)

He's a cool dude.

A (35:58)

He's so cool.

B (35:59)

And like the campaign is amazing and it did really well, but because of how left field it was. And it shows that you don't need to go out and pay millions of dollars to get the top athlete in your campaign. You can find amazing stories in sports and performance that are well beyond what people's understanding of it is and use them to build fascinating stories and products around. So I love when brands do stuff like that.

A (36:24)

I think Hermes is also doing a lot of really cool stuff in sport. I mean, of course it's a brand rooted in sport with their equestrian themes. Of course that is their history and that is so deeply integral to the brand. But there were players dressed in full. There was one player, I'm sorry guys, I don't know his name. I'm not a sports girl. But There was one player dressed head to toe. Hermes look, Grace Wells Bonner, who is now being moved over there as a creative director, who in my mind became so well known for her Adidas collaboration. And that is so rooted in sport. I feel like they have a great eye on what's happening in the sports world and how that visibility and almost like mass market can be played into the Hermes playbook.

B (37:07)

Yeah, it's fascinating. Like, I mean, that relationship again, is another one that's going to serve Adidas so well because, like, even if they don't collaborate, which they probably they might not because of how Hermes is, but like the value of having a collaborator, it's like the same thing with Bad Bunny, but like on a more like deeper fashion level. The value of having Grace Wells Bonner like one of their most valued designers. Now, Hermes is great. And like, when you add that to the fact that another collaborator they work with, Pharrell, is at lv, has just so many amazing synergies across the luxury fashion industry. But like you mentioned, there's no coincidence that all of the most relevant and popular designers over the last few years are all the ones that kind of spotted and organically worked with sports before it was such a big thing as it is now. Like again, Jonathan Anderson, Martin Rose, Grace Wells Bonner, Pharrell, all of these people really understood how powerful and interesting and alluring sports could be before it was such an apparent thing to everyone else.

A (38:02)

When you see how much fashion has been borrowing from sports, whether it's players, moments, visibility, I'm curious what you think that signals about what fashion is missing right now as a whole.

B (38:17)

I mean, I think it's fascinating how I kind of worry about how much the fashion industry is leaning into sports because of how kind of over reliant it's becoming on sports as a storytelling tool and athletes and. And I think I saw like, we saw a similar thing a few years back with how heavily like the fashion industry like rushed into the sneaker world. Like 2019, 2020, 2021. Every single fashion brand wanted to make their own sneaker. And if they didn't want to make their own sneaker, they wanted to do a collaboration with Nike on a sneaker. The sportswear brand were all going crazy, like producing like millions and millions of units of their top selling sneakers. And it really oversaturated the market, oversaturated our minds with sneaker related content and all of that kind of thing. And the effect of that was that people got tired and there was a big kind of pullback and I guess a market correction really. And everything came crashing down and brands were left with all this stock and consumers were left with all these shoes that they didn't really need or want but kind of got caught up in a frenzy buying. So I hope the same thing doesn't happen to sport. I do think there are a lot of collaborations and collections out there now that are sports inspired that often come from brands and organizations that don't have the right institutional knowledge and maybe rushed into it because that's what they thought they needed to do to keep up with the market. I really hope that we don't see it get to a stage where it becomes too gimmicky and oversaturated. But I do generally worry about how much and how kind of like fervent the desire is from the fashion industry to have anything to do with the world of sport.

A (39:51)

This was such a fascinating conversation. I feel like there are numerous episodes we need to do as follow ups to this.

B (39:57)

We have a lot to do.

A (39:58)

We do. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Before we close out, I feel, I know we touched on so many super bowl things. Was there anything else that was most exciting to you that you feel like you want people to know about or share from your very expert pov?

B (40:13)

For me, it's just like for me it was the first time being around football players and NFL athletes. And I've been around a lot of athletes from different sports over the years. But I was really impressed and interested and fascinated by their personalities and their desire to be involved in building their sport beyond what they do on the field. And you don't always get that. And completely understandably, a lot of athletes just want to do their day job and go home and they have very tough and intense training and lives and all that. And they just want to do their thing. But I was really impressed and encouraged by how excited and invested they all were in building personally their own personal profiles and the sport in general, especially using fashion as a vehicle and to kind of get that wider visibility among new people. So I found that for me that was the biggest takeaway and I came away with so many fascinating connections and facilitated a lot of really interesting conversations between athletes I met and people I know in the fashion industry. So that was, for me, that was the biggest takeaway.

A (41:16)

I love to hear that. It feels like a team effort. It isn't just a league wide goal, but it seems like it's coming from the inside too, which I think is very cool. And I'm excited to see what the year brings.

B (41:29)

Absolutely. And yeah, thank you so much for having me on. This has been so much fun and we definitely need to do many more.

A (41:34)

Yeah, this was really fun. Thank you so much. I know that you are so busy. You're there right now in the midst of, I'm sure, so many interviews and writing your substack and so many things. So thank you for making time for us.

B (41:43)

Of course. Anytime.

A (41:43)

And for being our translator. We really appreciate it. The fashion community appreciates you.

B (41:48)

Anytime.

A (41:49)

Awesome.

B (41:54)

Sam.