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- [00:00]
A
We are trapped in such an individualistic society where people are more concerned. Like I'm more concerned about myself. I need to put my own oxygen mask on first before I can give a fuck about somebody else's. Yep, that thinking has been instilled in us on purpose so that we will never see something burn down. They want us to be more concerned about ourselves and not tap into community.
- [00:30]
B
Hello friends and damn givers. Welcome to the let's Give a Damn Podcast, a show where I get to have conversations with incredible people who aim to lead the planet much better than they found it. And then I share those conversations with you. I'm your host, Nick lapara, and I'm so glad you're here. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by you, the listeners and viewers of this podcast. Well, some of you anyway. In in case you didn't know, let's Give a Damn is on Patreon. Patreon is a digital community that allows fans of a person or a project to support those people or projects for a few dollars a month. You can help us keep this podcast ad free and you'll help us continue to make the podcast week after week after week. Making a podcast is not easy and it's not cheap. Plus, I've lost many sponsors and partnerships this year because I've spoken up so loudly and and frequently about the genocide in Gaza. So much of my work disappeared for the first two quarters of this year. So if you enjoy the show, if you learned from this show, if you love let's Give a Damn podcast, consider joining our Patreon. Visit patreon.com LetsGividam to learn more. Or you can just Google Patreon and let's Give a Damn together and our page will pop right up. Please hit me up@helloetsgiveadam.com if you have any questions at all. Another way you can support our work is by purchasing some of our merch. We're always adding designs from time to time. The most popular item and the one I get stopped every single day about is our trucker hat. If you follow me on socials, I'm wearing it in basically every post. And I'm not kidding. People stop me every single day to tell me how much they love it. Remember that all of the items in our store have shipping and tax included in the price already, so the price you see is what you're going to pay. Visit LetsGivaDam.com store to see our products and purchase something today to support what we're trying to do okay. Moving on. Friends, I truly hope you are doing okay. I don't want to ask if you're doing well, because with everything going on in the world, it's more than likely that you're not doing well or amazing. But I hope that you're doing at least okay. I hope you're finding ways to give a damn, ways to help, ways to rest. And I hope you're finding little bits, little pockets of joy and hope from time to time. Because I mean this. No matter how fucked up things get in the world, we can and we must find some. Some joy and some hope. They are the fuel that is going to keep us going in this movement. I was talking with my friend Kayla the other day about how difficult it is to have fun, to find joy, or to see hope during times like these. And by times like these, I mean a fucking genocide in occupied Palestine that you and I are paying for because the United States, where most of our listeners are, is bought and paid for by Israel. Anyway, back to Kayla. They described their chest seizing with guilt whenever they have fun. That's how they said it. Can you relate to that? A few days ago, I was walking around the East Village, smoking a cigar on a beautiful autumn evening in New York. And then I went to a show at this club where my friend was having her very first album release party. So there I am, listening to incredible music, drinking a wonderful scotch, and all of a sudden my body freezes and my brain says to my body, what the fuck are you doing, Nick? You can't have fun? Do you know what they're going through in Gaza right now? Or in Lebanon or Sudan or right here in your own city? And I had to force myself back into the moment, which was a special day, a special, incredible day for my friend and for our community. Again, can anyone relate? Maybe you've had a situation like what I just described. I'm sure you have. If you give a damn. I also want to tell you, each and every one of you, however you're listening, wherever you're listening, I want to tell you that I am proud of you. I'm proud of you because I know how hard it is to give a damn and not lose your goddamn mind. To give a damn in fine moments, to rest. To give a damn. And speaking from experience here, not hate everyone and everything around us who are preventing us from getting free friends. The reality is, and I've said this a lot, but I need to keep saying it as a reminder for myself and for you all giving a damn and collective liberation are a long game. It's a long game and I'm so proud of you for playing the long game. And I truly am here to help you in any way that I can. I want to shift gears ever so slightly before I introduce today's incredible guest. If you've been paying attention, we've only put out a few podcasts this year and this is the first one in a couple of months. Why? A quick few reasons. One, I haven't had the extra money to make them. If I'm being completely honest, I've had a team since day one and I trust them with my life. They are in Nashville and they do incredible work, but we put out quality content and quality content costs money. And most of my money has been going toward projects related to the genocide in Gaza. Plus, I've lost. As I've stated before, I've lost podcast sponsors and potential podcast sponsors because I've spoken up in such a loud and unfettered way about the genocide in Gaza. Number two is I haven't had a lot of energy to put them out. I'm being completely 100 with you. I haven't had a lot of energy to put them out. I have really been struggling. I wake up every day feeling like we are living in a nightmare. An evil, genocidal nightmare that we can stop immediately, but the powers that be are not only not stopping it, they're making it worse and worse and worse. Don't hear me say that I haven't been doing the work just because you haven't heard podcast episodes. I have lots of it, but my energy to tell hopeful stories on the podcast hasn't quite been there lately. But I'm coming back. I'm getting it back, slowly but surely. And the last reason One of the reasons why I haven't been putting out podcast episodes lately is because I was for quite a while part of an intense and very special project over the last couple months. In August, I was hired to manage a fundraising Tour with UNRWA USA and Motaz Aziza. As you know, Motaz is the 25 year old journalist who showed the world what was happening in in Gaza through his camera lens and through his phone. As a result, he had a massive target on his back from Israel and he had to be evacuated from Gaza 108 days into the genocide as well. His platform blew up because he was one of the few people that was able to, in such a brilliant and heartbreaking way, show what was going on in Gaza in real time. His platform blew up. He now has just under 18 million followers on Instagram and a couple million more on the other social platforms. This tour that we did was absolutely exhausting and absolutely incredible. Over the course of nine days in four different states, Houston, Anaheim, New York City and Washington D.C. we were able to raise over $1.5 million that will go directly to help Palestinians in Gaza. In fact, that money that we raised just under a month ago is already at work in Gaza. And you may not know much about Unreusa, but please friends, change that. They're an incredible nonprofit that is worthy of your attention and your donations. These folks work tirelessly so that Palestinians can get healthcare and education, food and so on. In a few weeks, I'll be interviewing the executive director of Unreusa on this podcast. You can keep an eye out for that. And if you're listening to this on the day it releases on the Tuesday that it releases on Wednesday. The next day of this coming week, I will be interviewing the executive director of Unreusa on Instagram Live. So keep an eye out for that. Go to let's Give a Damn on Instagram. You're gonna see a graphic there and you'll find out what time on Wednesday I will be doing that interview. All that to say, friends, I have been busy and tired and trying to figure my shit out, but I hope to be getting back to weekly ish podcasts very soon. I have so many incredible folks lined up that I wanna chat with and I wanna share those conversations with you now for our fabulous, fabulous, fabulous guest this week. Jess Natale is the creator of The Instagram account so.informed so informed, which has 3.2 million followers, an incredible accomplishment, especially since the account is barely four years old. Her background is in marketing, journalism, political volunteering and activism. She's dedicated the SO page to educating millions of people around the world on topics ranging from politics and reproductive rights to criminal justice reform and more. Jess is actively involved in political protests and organizing. In this conversation that you're about to hear, she tells me how many protests she's been to in the last year and it's a lot more than most people. It is clear that that she is focusing on efforts on the ground to affect real and lasting change. She also works with nonprofits and groups focused on prison abolition and criminal justice. Reformed. In this conversation we recorded a wide ranging chat a few days ago at her apartment with her little dog and cats running around and I can't wait for you to hear it. Before we begin, a quick reminder. As always, that you can email me anytime and for any reason at. Hello, let's Give a Damn Dot com. You can ask questions. Recommend future guests. Tell me how much you love or hate the show. Ask more questions about the aforementioned Unreusa and the Motaz campaign, because I really want you to continue donating to unreusa. Anything goes. You can ask me questions about anything. I just love hearing from you. And now let's get right into my conversation with my new friend and wonderful human, Jess Natale. Let's go, Jess. Welcome to the let's Give a Damn podcast.
- [11:20]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [11:22]
B
I thank you for doing it so last minute as well. I had another guest and I wanted to have you on from the moment that I met you. I did. And I'm going to tell people how we met here in a second, with your permission. I'll tell you how we met because it was a funny moment, but I. I knew I wanted to have you on. And then my other guest was not nailing down a date, and I was like, this is the week to have Jess on. And it's the. You're the last episode before the election.
- [11:47]
A
Oh, God help us all.
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B
And so, yes, God, all the gods help us. So, yeah, we did. We met like, a month ago. Not even a month ago. Under a month ago. Half a month ago, A couple weeks.
- [11:58]
A
Three weeks ago.
- [11:59]
B
Yeah, three weeks ago. We met here in New York. I was managing a tour for Unreusa with Motaz Ziza, and you came to the event, and I didn't know. I knew of you. I was following, so informed, but I didn't know sort of what you looked like and everything. And we had a list of VIPs and we tried to call them special guests because everybody's very important, but you were a vip, and, yeah, you were like, hey, we need. We have wristbands that we need to get. We were told to get wristbands. And I was like. And I was like. And I was like, yeah, who are you? And you said, I'm so informed. Which makes total sense since you are the creator of so Informed. But it was a really funny moment that I won't forget how we met ever, because of how you introduced yourself.
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A
It was so awkward.
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B
Yeah, I was cringing for a second.
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A
I'm cringing about it right now.
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B
Don't. Cause that's how you needed to do it. Because then I was like, oh, yeah, okay. Yes, over here to this table, we'll give you your wristbands. But because of the name of Your project, your platform, and you have to introduce yourself as I'm. It came off, really.
- [13:11]
A
It was. It was. I was embarrassed about it for. Until this moment.
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B
Until this moment. But it's gone. Don't be. It was just. It was. It was a really great way to meet. It was very memorable.
- [13:21]
A
Thank you.
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B
You made. You made a lasting first impression.
- [13:25]
A
My awkward first impression.
- [13:27]
B
Yes, I am. And who were you? Were you with a colleague or one of my best friends. Okay. Amazing. Okay. I never. When I was thinking about that moment, I was like, I never. That moment was so memorable that I never introduced myself to the other person there. So sorry about that. Yeah. So I guess let's start. We're going to get to all of your stuff, who you are, how you got here and so informed in the election and all that shit. But what did you think of the. So we met during this incredible event. We took it around the U.S. motaz was sharing stories, and we had music and art and, yeah, all kinds of storytelling, and we were raising money for an incredible organization that I think both you and I really appreciate on Ray usa. So what was your impression of that event?
- [14:15]
A
It was incredible, but it was also heartbreaking. I feel so sad just hearing the story. Like, we know the stories. We've seen the footage. It wasn't the first time we've seen those images, the footage, anything. But it was still so jarring to have people who've experienced this genocide, who survived this genocide and escaped the genocide in person. It was like. I don't know, I was struggling. I was in the audience crying silently into my hands. It's a lot. And you want to hug them. But then it's almost like I got the impression that they don't want to be doing this. They don't want to be touring. They don't want to be showing the images and the carnage that we've all already seen. They don't want to be doing it. And so, yeah, it was a. Yeah.
- [15:08]
B
I think if you were to ask Motaz or anybody that has a platform now because of this genocide, hey, would you take the 20 million followers and all the fame and the recognition you get now, or would you want to go back to your little place in Gaza and just be there existing, being a good. Being a good brother, friend, son, neighbor, and I guarantee you, without even thinking, he would say, I want that back.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, like, again, they didn't choose this. And, yeah, I mean, it was really tough to hear those stories over and over again and to really be behind the scenes to see how much of a struggle it was to even for him to get to prepare himself to go out there and tell these stories over and over again. I don't think he. I don't. He didn't want to. Some nights, he just didn't want to. And part of me was like, as the manager, I'm like, you gotta do it. Like, people came to hear from you, they want to see you, they want to meet you. Like, you have to do this. But the other part, take off the manager. The manager uniform. And I'm like, I fucking get it. Like, go to bed. Like, shut off your phone and go to bed and just sleep for as long as you need to. Like, to just forget about all the things that. So it was a very, like, it was very energizing. We raised a lot of money for unreusa, money that right now is in Gaza being used to educate and to feed and to house all of these innocent Palestinians. But. So it was good in that regard.
- [16:47]
A
But it was brutal. I mean, I brought my dog, so it was nice that he got to meet Penny and he was petting her and he was loving on her. So I felt like that was a nice little escape from the. It was chaos.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I mean, it was. I just. How do you take that in when somebody's standing in front of you telling you.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So in the audience, it was difficult, and I can't even imagine how difficult that was for him. Honestly. You could tell the pain is, like, palpable.
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B
Yeah. So, yeah, my, My partner and kids came in New York because we live here. They, they came to. To see me because I had been gone for a week and also to meet him. And, you know, before we went in, you know, the kids were like, oh, you know, they've been following his journey and his stories for a year. We've. We haven't shielded our kids from any. Anything. Like, they have seen everything, and I think they need to see everything because they're growing up in a world where rich Westerners are paying for it. They're using our. And I told them that over and over again. I was like, I work hard to defeat things like this, and the taxes that I pay are paying for this. That's the clusterfuck that we sort of live in. But when they arrived, you know, they're all nervous. And I was like, listen, I, I get it. But also, the only thing that this young man is famous for, the only reason he has fame, is because Israel had bad aim. That's the only that's it?
- [18:14]
A
Yeah.
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B
You don't think he was on a top wanted list?
- [18:17]
A
Oh, yeah.
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B
He. He. He is the most popular journalist, one of the most popular journalists on the planet right now, and definitely the most popular Palestinian journalist. You don't think they wanted him dead so badly?
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A
Yep.
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B
The only reason that we have him in the room with us is because they.
- [18:34]
A
They couldn't kill him.
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B
Are incredibly incompetent. Right. So, yeah, it was wild. I am in the intro of this episode. I will have explained more about. Because it's the first episode since the tour. I will explain more about the tour and all of that. So we won't get into it more. But I'm so glad that you got to experience it. What? Glad? I'm. Yeah, I'm glad that you got to experience it and feel all of the feelings, the crying and the. The moments of hope that I hope you felt there as well. We have so much to dig into.
- [19:07]
A
Oh, yes, we do.
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B
But before we get to your current work. So informed, something that millions of people rely on for news storytelling. I think bits of hope, bits of clarity. Before we get to all of that, who in the hell are you? Where did you come from? So let's start back at the beginning. Like, yeah, who are the people, places, and things that made you who you are today? And you can go back as far as you want. Some people start from the very beginning. I always appreciate that. But you can start from wherever, Whatever sort of pops up that led you to this moment. Let's walk through that journey together.
- [19:47]
A
Sure. I was born in Connecticut. I grew up in northern Connecticut, right on the border of Massachusetts in what is technically a small town, even though there are a lot of people there. I grew up next to a cornfield, which I think is important because people think Connecticut. They think, like, Stanford, and I think rich Connecticut. No, I grew up next to a cornfield. My parents got divorced. I was living with my mom. She had no money, so I was. I've been working since I was just turned 15. So I think there's this really frustrating for me narrative that's been pushed largely by Zionists as of the last three or four years, that I'm this, like, rich kid from Connecticut. That's just not true. That's not how I grew up. I don't. I don't relate to that at all. My mom and I laugh about it frequently. Like, fuck, no, you're not. Yeah, Yeah. I. I've actually never shared this before. I struggled so much in high school. I was like, super depressed kid. And I struggled with bullying a lot, and I dropped out of high school halfway through my senior year. I dropped out of high school because.
- [21:00]
B
It was so intense.
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A
It was too much. Like, I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. And so I was, like, struggling with my classes. I really only wanted to take English because I wanted to be a writer. My mom was fighting with the school all the time. She's like, she doesn't need to be, like, in wood shop class. What the fuck is she gonna do with that?
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B
Yeah.
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A
So my mom, like, went to bat for me a lot, and we figured out a way where I could technically drop out and take adult education classes at night. And I ended up graduating two or three months before everybody else did with my diploma. I have a high school diploma, but I just did it, like, online. And then a couple nights a week, I would go in and take tests and sit in front of one of my teachers from my high school was, like, the continuing education teacher, and he was like, wow, you're doing a lot better now that you're not in that environment. Like, you're acing math. I thought you didn't know math.
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B
Wow.
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A
So, yeah, I've never shared that because people like to use that against me. I think.
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B
I think it's a. For you. I think it's a pro, because it shows that you didn't. I think there's a lot of people that might have just said, fuck it, and, like, not tried to. Even though you were close to the finish line. Like, I know people that were, like, that wasn't for me. I chose a different path. And you fought through that, and you worked with your mom to, like, figure that out. That. I think that's a pro.
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A
Yeah. I think it was just, like, I wanted so desperately to get out of the town I was living in, which is big, like, because it's cornfield and tobacco fields. So it's a lot of that kind of energy. I don't know how else to explain it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
A lot of people who think they're, like, country, but they're like, you're in Connecticut, so you're. You know, so it was strong, like, Republican energy. The town is split in half, so it's, like, historically split. I think there's, like, a river or something or, like, a train tracks that split the town. So half the town is poor, half the town is not.
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B
Oh, wow.
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A
Okay. So I was living on the poor side, and my father and my brother were on, like, the wealthier side of town. So it was this kind of weird. Like, I understood the class divide and I fucking hated it. I went to the poor high school. My brother went to, like the good high school. So it was just. I didn't like it there ever. So the second I turned 18, I enrolled at like a for profit scam college in the city here.
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B
Perfect.
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A
So that I could get the fuck out. And they had rolling admission, so I started in July. I turned 18 in May. So I got out and I have never gone back.
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B
Wow.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So you were on the poor side. Your dad and brother were on the rich side.
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A
Yeah.
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B
If it's not prying too much, how did that happen? Like, did your dad. Was it a better job that your dad had or was it so. Yeah, it was. It was. He had the better job, the better.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And was he the. Was he. When they were married, was he like the breadwinner? Was he. Yeah. So he continued his thing and mom had to figure out now how to make a living now that they were.
- [24:02]
A
And he. He's just such a. He bankrupt my mom when they were getting divorced. Like, he was taking her to court just because he wanted to dry her out of all her cash. And yeah, she didn't have a lot to begin with, so he dragged that divorce and like the child custody hearings and everything. That was dragged on for years. And she struggled. She had to get like second, third jobs. Yeah. I have a lot of respect for like her tenacity and her kind of. She taught me. She taught me work ethic and she taught me how to like get my together when I'm on my ass, kind of. So that helped me later in life. I came to find out that would help me later in life. But yeah, he's. That's how that happened.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Single momming is ridiculously hard. Were there other. Was there a community around you all or was it just you two?
- [24:53]
A
I have an older sister who. She's seven years older than me, so she. I don't want to say she, like helped raise me because I don't think that's fair. And I think she would laugh in my face if I said that. But having somebody who was older around definitely helped. I was 10 when my parents got divorced, so my sister was shortly after that. She was in college, but it was like having another adult around. So I think that helped my mom and my younger brother. He lived with my father.
- [25:26]
B
Okay, so you moved to the city as soon as you possibly came.
- [25:29]
A
Oh, God. Yeah.
- [25:31]
B
But you said it was a scam college.
- [25:33]
A
Yes.
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B
So how did that pan out for you?
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A
It was the Art Institute of New York City, which is.
- [25:40]
B
It sounds not scammy.
- [25:41]
A
It sounds not scammy because the Art Institute in Chicago is legit.
- [25:45]
B
Yep. Yep.
- [25:46]
A
But the Art Institute, it was. It's, like, now defunct, maybe. I don't know. Nothing was accredited. Like, it was a scam. I knew it was a scam. Shortly after I started Occupy Wall street popped up. That took my attention. I was out doing that. Not going to classes.
- [26:02]
B
Yeah.
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A
And then I was going to classes, and I was like, this is also fucking stupid. I don't want to be doing this. Like, I'm not artistic. I don't want to be doing this. So I stopped going after my first semester.
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B
And did you ever go back?
- [26:17]
A
No.
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B
Okay.
- [26:18]
A
No.
- [26:20]
B
You and me both. I quit college. I quit college for. I was. I was in a. I was in Bible college, like a theology school.
- [26:28]
A
Oh, wow.
- [26:29]
B
At the time I was going to my. I thought that I would become some sort of a clergy.
- [26:35]
A
Wow.
- [26:37]
B
That's. My upbringing is, like, very conservative Christian.
- [26:40]
A
Okay.
- [26:40]
B
And it was still hanging on. And I actually still am a Christian, but a way, like, way different kind. I had to change pretty much everything about my belief system and about how I lived to still be a Christian today of all times in history, where Christians are some. They are literally the worst people that I know. Every single time.
- [27:02]
A
Yep.
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B
But I dropped out because I was. I just felt like, this is going to sound so stupid and arrogant, but, like, I just wasn't. My professors were not. They weren't actually teaching me anything. And I've always been a big reader and a big, like. Yeah. Big researcher. And, like, if I needed to find something out, I would go learn. I would go watch. I watch still. I still watch lectures on YouTube. And I, like. I'm still very, like, I'm in learning mode all the time.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I was like, wait a second. I am paying so much money for you to kind of teach me stuff that I'm not enjoying learning. And we were. My partner and I, we had gotten married recently. We were poor as hell. And I was like, most of my money is going to pay for this school because I didn't want to get into debt. So I was like, I'm not getting into debt. I'm going to pay off semester by semester.
- [27:53]
A
Wow.
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B
And it just got too much. And I was like, I'm out. So here we are crushing it. I think we're crushing it.
- [28:02]
A
Yeah.
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B
Without college degrees. I'm not saying they're Bad, but they are. I think. I think we're not going to talk about this today because that's a whole different conversation, but I think most higher education is fairly scammy just in the. I'm not saying again, learning. I'm all about it. I am all about it. But the amount of money they charge you, the debt that they saddle you with, the amount of constraints they put you on. On you for decades, in exchange for what? Like, most of my friends that have, you know, undergrad and grad degrees are not using their degree.
- [28:36]
A
Yeah.
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B
Almost in any way, shape or form. Now, that might get them a job interview over me, but. Okay, cool. I'll just fight harder and impress them and I'll get the job anyway. Right. If I wanted a job. So. Yeah, I think it's mostly scammy. So good on us for, I guess, recognizing that.
- [28:51]
A
Yeah.
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B
Without even knowing that we really recognized it.
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A
I recognize it 100%. I was like one of my high school teachers who is probably the. He's the singular reason that I probably didn't drop out sooner. He believed in me. He thought I was talented. He told me that, and that was rare for any teacher in that school. I went to a public school, and he had told me, like, you don't need a college degree to learn how to write. You already know how to write. You just need to know, like, the basics, like punctuation. You don't need somebody to teach you how to have a voice if you already have one.
- [29:25]
B
Yeah.
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A
And so that was maybe my junior year when everybody was like, you have to start applying to colleges and do it. And then that stuck with me where I was like, I was thinking about enrolling at Brooklyn College for Journalism when I. I dropped out of the Art Institute. And then I was like, but why would I do that to myself? So his. His words stuck with me. And I still think about that, like, probably once a month now. And that was a long time ago. So.
- [29:51]
B
Yeah. Incredible. Good for us. Okay, so you dropped out of college.
- [29:56]
A
I did.
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B
So that's like. That's still teens or early 20s.
- [30:00]
A
I was 18. I was still 18. Yeah, it was 2011.
- [30:04]
B
So what did you get into next? Like, I want to start drawing some, like, par. Some, like, I want to start drawing my life. Yeah.
- [30:11]
A
Draw my life.
- [30:12]
B
I want to figure out the timeline here to how we got to this point.
- [30:16]
A
Yeah.
- [30:17]
B
So what did you do next that continued you on this path toward. Really, we're getting to, you know, we'll head toward 2020 when you started. So Informed. Right. So, yeah. What. What happened after that when you dropped out?
- [30:29]
A
I dropped out. Was very, very poor, which is very difficult in the city, especially. Especially when you're 18. Yeah, I mean, we can get real specific. I took like a seasonal job at Macy's Herald Square.
- [30:42]
B
Yeah.
- [30:42]
A
I was like, struggling to afford cigarettes. I was like, I couldn't function. I was eating like ramen noodles. And my partner at the time, who is my ex husband, that would come to be something at some point.
- [30:58]
B
But you got married and then unmarried at some point.
- [31:00]
A
Yes, I did. Um, yeah, him and I were kind of like, fuck this. Like, we can't survive in the city at this point. And we were doing a lot of Googling. We were staying at an Airbnb for a month in Gramercy. So we gave ourselves like a month once they kicked us out of the dorms because we stopped going to school. He stopped at the same time I stopped.
- [31:22]
B
Same school or different school?
- [31:23]
A
Same school, different reasons.
- [31:24]
B
Yeah.
- [31:26]
A
Mine was driven, like having seen the real world, and his was kind of. I don't. We won't get into that. Yeah. Yeah. So we gave ourselves pretty much a month, like, we'll see if we can make it work here in this Airbnb, figure out if we can get an apartment. Didn't end up happening. And then we found some, maybe a Reddit thread or something of people talking about how Austin, Texas was the new Brooklyn. And we were like, oh, fuck. Like, let's go explore that. So went and stayed with my mom for a couple months. I got a waitressing job and made a bunch of money in Rhode island. And then we moved. We literally packed up a car and drove with everything we owned to Austin. We'd never been there before. We just like, looked at pictures online, signed a lease for an apartment over the phone.
- [32:16]
B
It was probably a lot cheaper than, like, now. It's probably ridiculous. But then it wasn't on the radar.
- [32:22]
A
Yeah, this is like early 2012. So it was still weird. Like, keep Austin weird. It was still weird. Yeah. We had a two bedroom apartment. I think it was like $1,400, which is now impossible to even get a studio there for that mountain. Yeah. So moved there. Struggled like fuck. Still struggling. Struggling to acclimate to the idea that I was in Texas. And then I took a job fundraising, like a paid fundraiser for the Obama re election campaign in Texas. And that was my, like, that's how I got into politics, was doing that.
- [33:06]
B
And do you. Do you regret working with Obama? I mean.
- [33:12]
A
No. No. Because I don't think Mitt Romney would have been any better, if we're being honest.
- [33:17]
B
True.
- [33:17]
A
At that time, you know, I was not, I was not as into it now, like as I am now. So.
- [33:24]
B
No, there was so back then the energy was so incredible.
- [33:27]
A
Yes, it was.
- [33:28]
B
And we weren't thinking, this guy's gonna become a pretty wild war criminal and like gonna make some pretty like always gonna be the charming Obama.
- [33:37]
A
Yeah.
- [33:38]
B
Like, but he's a pretty, he's, he's a worker. He's a war criminal.
- [33:43]
A
Yeah.
- [33:43]
B
In every way, shape and form. And so we didn't know that at that point. It was all hope. It was all like, oh my God, first black president. And this guy's like, like, I don't want to hang out with presidents. They all are. Look, look and feel so boring to me. But like Obama was like, we could hang. You know, like, he had this like cool factor. That was really. Yeah, I was all in back then.
- [34:04]
A
Yeah. And I mean this was for like his reelection too. So I think I wasn't paying attention to the airstrikes that he was leveling and I wasn't paying attention to that.
- [34:13]
B
I wasn't at the time either.
- [34:14]
A
Yeah, I was. Honestly, he got elected. I was still in high school, I was all for it. And then re election, I was just like, you know, Mitt Romney fucking sucks. And I was in Texas one day, I left work and there was like a pro life air quotes, pro life rally of like thousands of people. And that was the first time I saw that in person. And I was like, oh fuck this shit. Like I don't want this to be the whole. So I got even. Like it went more hard for Obama and I think that I'm very glad I'm not in that mentality that like liberal mentality anymore.
- [34:51]
B
We're so far.
- [34:52]
A
So far, so far.
- [34:53]
B
But I used to think it was like when I, when I went from being. I was never a conservative, but that was the world I grew up in. I always thought differently, but I was in a conservative bubble. And when I went from ident or yeah. Being a conservative bubble to saying that I was I'm a liberal, it felt like, it felt so wild and so dramatic and so drastic. And now liberals are the fucking worst. The bane of my existence.
- [35:17]
A
The fucking worst.
- [35:18]
B
Like they are, they are truly, they are truly some of the most unexceptional, non critical thinking humans that I've ever met. It's pretty wild.
- [35:28]
A
Yeah.
- [35:28]
B
Your family, are they. How do you identify? Like, what do you when people say, where are you politically? Like, where do you. What do you say? Do you. Do you have a way to say. I mean, I always say, like, I'm as left. Like, you can't find anyone more left. I'm like, I'm a leftist.
- [35:42]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:43]
B
But is that what. Yeah.
- [35:44]
A
People have been calling me an anarchist lately, I think as like a. A dig at me and I'm like, fuck it, I'll adopt that too.
- [35:50]
B
Yeah. It's not. It's not the burn you think it is, sweetie. No, I'm. I'm okay with that. Yes. Tear down the empire, please. Sign me up. Your family, though, are they along for the ride or where are they politically?
- [36:04]
A
My father is a Trump supporter and before Trump came onto the scene, he was just like a nasty Republican, you know, like.
- [36:12]
B
Yeah.
- [36:13]
A
As racist and hateful as it gets, like. Yeah. So unfortunately my brother grew up with that and so he adopted a lot of that.
- [36:25]
B
That's tough.
- [36:26]
A
Yeah, it's sad. I'm sad about that frequently. My mom is definitely progressive. My sister is progressive. My extended family has disowned me because first it was same with mine to some extent. Summer 2020. Jess is Antifa. I was like, of course I'm anti fascist. Why the fuck wouldn't I be?
- [36:46]
B
Yeah. Who.
- [36:46]
A
Right. Like what? I don't have a card carrying, like membership to antifa, but sure. Yeah. So I got disowned by my whole family, essentially. So it's like my mom and my sister are very.
- [36:59]
B
Those are your people?
- [37:00]
A
Yeah, they're in line with a lot of. A lot of what? I think. I don't think they're in line with a lot of what I do. Yeah, Less. Less. My mom, she's kind of. She wants to take to the streets with me, but yeah, we've.
- [37:14]
B
My. My dynamic is interesting because. So my dad is. I'm Guatemalan. My dad was born in Guatemala and then I grew up in Guatemala. But he left. He came to the States as a refugee at the beginning of the 1960-1996 Civil War there that the US there was a. There was a period of genocide during there that the US paid for, of course. So my dad is a. Is a very brown, pretty poor refugee. Still to this day is like not. Has no wealth to speak of, you know, has struggled his entire life. And this man, I love him, I really do. We have a good relationship. But this man and several of my siblings, I'm one of 12 kids.
- [38:00]
A
Oh, wow.
- [38:01]
B
Good conservative Christians. Just pumping him out. Yeah. Voted for Trump both times. And it's incredibly wild to me. But I bring that up to say, like, I guess when I hear stories of. I do have extended family that have disowned me, but so far, my partner's family, who are very conservative, and my family, who are not as conservative, but still somehow founded in their ideology to vote for a rapist, a cheating, lying rapist, as, like, the Christians that they are, but they haven't. Yeah, it's a weird situation because it would almost be easier if they had disowned me or I had disowned them. I don't want to be. I don't want politics to do that. But, like, I loathe everything about this person so much. And you went and pressed a button several times, like, at least two times to. At least two times he ran twice.
- [39:04]
A
So two times don't set him up for, like, voter fraud.
- [39:10]
B
And it's so wild to me. But we've still been able to. I don't know, like, still. I'm going next week, one of my little sisters is getting married, and we're all going to be together. Most of us are going to be together. And, you know, I assume that some of them will vote for him again in two weeks. And yet we're going to have a good time. We're going to drink a lot together and smoke cigars and hang out and party, even though that is a part of their. What they've done, you know, and they. They equally loathe the. My leftism. They think I'm. They think I'm so far gone, irredeemable. You know, I don't believe in hell, but if there is one, they believe that I'm gonna be first in line to go there because of just how crazy left that I am. And so it's interesting, the experience that people have with the political differences and yours, I don't think are stemming just from not just that your dad voted for Trump, it's also all the other stuff that he's done to you.
- [40:04]
A
All right. It's the whole. Yeah. It's a lifetime of rejection of, like, the racism and hatred and being told for my entire life until I turned 18, that I was the only person on earth that thought the way I thought. And I think that that insulated me.
- [40:21]
B
Yeah.
- [40:22]
A
Into such a way where I just, like, hated everyone. And I think that probably contributed to.
- [40:26]
B
Like, well, you were in a small town and you didn't know. You probably to some degree believed that, like, how am I feeling this way and no one else is feeling this way. It's pretty isolating.
- [40:35]
A
And I think that that has been like the biggest fuck you on earth to him to be like, I don't think that's the case. 3.2 million people think the way I think.
- [40:43]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [40:45]
A
So how does that. Like, what does that make you? Yeah, I don't. I don't talk to him. I have no relationship with him. But if I were to say something, it would be that the little.
- [40:54]
B
The little I know about him. Sounds like you made a great decision sort of cutting that off.
- [40:58]
A
Yeah.
- [40:59]
B
Okay. What were the events? I think I know based on the sort of the dates and the timeline, but, like, what were the events that led to you starting so informed.
- [41:15]
A
So Obama. That was 2012. I stayed in Texas for a year, and then I could not do it anymore. So I came back to New York. My ex, and I kind of just struggled a lot. And I think you. You can. So politicians like to talk to us about how people in this country struggle, but I don't think many of them have actually experienced that struggle. And so that. That made me more political, having experienced the struggle. Like, as I was getting into politics, I was struggling to fucking survive. There was one point I was working three jobs, and still my lights were shut off. Like, I was. I was genuinely struggling. And then I discovered Bernie Sanders. And I was like, holy fuck. Like, this guy is talking to me. Like, he sees me, and I think he understands me. And it felt like a personal. Like, it felt very personal for me because I'd never really heard a politician speak like that before, but also never felt that they were genuine about what they were saying. So it was 2015, maybe 2014, that I started really getting into Bernie.
- [42:30]
B
Yeah.
- [42:30]
A
And that catapulted, you know, I was very anti Hillary Clinton. To this day, I still am.
- [42:38]
B
Also a good decision.
- [42:39]
A
Absolutely no respect for her. I was living in California during that election. Bounced around quite a bit.
- [42:46]
B
Yeah.
- [42:49]
A
Devastated. Devastated by Bernie not being the nominee in 2016. And then she lost. And then Trump came in. We know. We know how that went. I was back in New York when Trump. Like right after Trump won, I came back to New York, which felt safer, oddly enough.
- [43:07]
B
Sure.
- [43:08]
A
I was in Huntington Beach.
- [43:09]
B
Oh, my God.
- [43:10]
A
And I didn't realize Maga Haven. Oh, yeah. I didn't realize that when I moved there, I was. Was like, oh, I'm near the beach in California. No, it's a white supremacy town.
- [43:20]
B
Yeah. Manhattan. The Manhattan Beach City Council. Last month, when we. When we were Doing our Anaheim. Unre usa. Anaheim. Stop. The night before, they had voted to. They became a sister city to one of the cities in Israel or occupied Palestine. Like, that's how. That's how. Right. And Zionist.
- [43:42]
A
Yeah.
- [43:43]
B
Like you again, you'd think California, you know, sort of a leftist, liberal, progressive haven. There are pockets of that, for sure, like LA proper, but when you get to those beach towns, man, it is. It's MAGA all over.
- [43:55]
A
Oh, yeah. And I didn't know that. And I think I'm, like, glad that I bounced around this country so much because I was able to experience things and it's a good thing, get a good, like, get a better understanding of, like, even these people that I fundamentally disagree with who, like, on its face, maybe I hate you.
- [44:12]
B
Yeah.
- [44:13]
A
They still don't deserve this happening in this country. And I think that that opened up this new door of empathy in my brain where I was like, I can hate you and everything you stand for, but, like, you also don't deserve what's happening here.
- [44:27]
B
I'm fighting for you as well.
- [44:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, that, that. Honestly, I'm. As much as I struggled all. All throughout my earlier life up until like a couple years ago, like, I'm grateful that I did because I met people that I wouldn't have met otherwise. And I met people who kind of, yeah, made me more empathetic to, like, the reality in this country, not the shit we see on TV where they're trying to pit us against each other. So, yeah. So it was Bernie.
- [44:59]
B
You got radicalized.
- [45:00]
A
Radicalized by Bernie Sanders. Saying that now is kind of ridiculous.
- [45:05]
B
We'll get to current day Bernie and share our disappointment.
- [45:08]
A
But so, yeah, Bernie kind of pushed me way further left than I thought even existed. This space of community and empathy and what is peddled as radical thought but is really just like basic human decency. I think so. Yeah. So Trump took office. That was 2017, his inauguration. And 2019, Bernie announced he was gonna run again. I think that was what, like, November, December, it was cold out. I remember that.
- [45:44]
B
Yep.
- [45:45]
A
And I was like, all right, like, I'm gonna go head first into, like, volunteering, outreach, doing everything. And then I started the SO page in February 2020 because I was doing outreach for Bernie's campaign. And I was like, everybody is so fucking stupid. Everybody is so not informed. They're so brainwashed by this narrative that he's a communist. Like, I wish he was a communist, you know? And I was struggling to talk to people, like, in the Midwest about Bernie. And so I Started making graphics, like, little slideshows about, like, breaking down his campaign, who he is. And I was sharing them in, like, the Bernie groups on Facebook, which was, like, a lot of volunteers. And that's how the soap age started, was just me, like, making these slideshows to share with other volunteers. And then I just kept going.
- [46:46]
B
I was like, how did you know what to do, though? Like, everybody's trying to grow a platform on social media. Everybody's trying to sort of be and stay relevant, you know, Everything's changing so much. I guess it wasn't so much algorithms and stuff back then. I mean, it still was, but it wasn't. Like, this was 20 years ago, but it was. It's different than it is today. But how did you know? Yeah. Like, did you have other. Were there other accounts that you were, like, I don't know, getting some ideas from? Or did you just open Canva or open whatever, Adobe, whatever, and just, like, start designing stuff and putting stuff together?
- [47:21]
A
That's really what it was. I was doing a lot of, like, infographics for work. Like, my real. My. My actual job, which at the time, I was working for an audiology group in California. Like, healthcare and, like, making infographics and posters for their offices.
- [47:37]
B
Yeah.
- [47:37]
A
So I was, like, already kind of doing that with information, and I was like, I'm just gonna use Illustrator and, like, make a new doc and just start. So it was really. It was that. It was not immediately like, a platform.
- [47:53]
B
Yeah.
- [47:54]
A
So it was. The People for Bernie page shared something, I think I did a post on Medicare for All, and they boosted it on their page, and that is when people started following. But that was, like, two months in. But I started that in February. Covid hit what, April? End of March.
- [48:12]
B
Yeah.
- [48:13]
A
So it was like, I got a month of, like, no one was really on their phones, and infographics weren't really a huge thing when I started it. So it was like Covid hit. And then I was like, all right, motherfuckers need to stay inside. So I'm, like, making graphics, like, here's what the CDC is saying. So those were starting to get shared a lot when people were, like, forced to stay home on their phones all day. I think it. Honestly, it was because of COVID that the page became a thing.
- [48:41]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That's true of other platforms as well, for sure. But again, a lot of people were trying. And yours hit what. What about. What was it about your. The way that you delivered the news, the way that you told stories that resonate. What do you think is connecting with people? Because, again, I can find you a lot of other platforms that are doing similar things. Maybe they're copying you. I don't know. But, like, they're doing very similar things. And. And I'm not. We can stop talking about the growth. But I think it's worth mentioning because there are a lot of people out there doing good, trying to do more good, and they're spinning their wheels. And so for a second, I want to sort of, like, go after. Yeah. How. What can you share with other people about the. The wins and the losses and the frustrations of building this platform? Because you didn't go. You obviously didn't go into it to now have millions of people following you, but that is the reality. And so what do you think is connecting with people that allowed your platform to really grow?
- [49:46]
A
I want to. Like, it's. It's. So. It's awkward for me to talk. I don't know.
- [49:51]
B
No, Just say whatever.
- [49:52]
A
Such a personal thing for me. It's never been about me and that. I was so fucking intentional. Like, I didn't even have my. No one knew who was running it.
- [50:01]
B
Yeah.
- [50:02]
A
Because I was like, it's not about me. No one needs to know. Like, I don't give a shit. Now I'm sitting on a podcast talking about myself, and, like, it takes all my soul to do it. Like, it's so personal for me. It started from a personal place of, like, I want Bernie to be president because I want better for people. And so I'm going to help people talk about this. But it became so personal. It's like, I. It's a personal thing. I don't know. Like, my heart is in it.
- [50:32]
B
Yeah.
- [50:33]
A
I don't take money for what I do. And I think that's the difference between the SO page and other pages. They're getting paid by, like, the DNC to fucking hype up Kamala right now. Or, like, at the time, like, hype.
- [50:46]
B
Up Biden or like, every third post is like, sign up for a Patreon.
- [50:50]
A
Yeah. It's like, I don't even. I don't do that. It's genuinely something that I care about. And I think. I wasn't afraid. I wasn't afraid. Now I've tried to pull it back, but I wasn't afraid when I started. Like, I don't give a fuck. I don't care. Like, I'm gonna say what's on my mind in these posts. I'm gonna give you the information. I'm gonna give you, the sources, but I'm also gonna tell you how I feel about it.
- [51:13]
B
Yeah. And I think that's actually something important to point out is that it's a combo of. It's super personal. It's also. There are other platforms like yours. I can mention names. I won't because some of them have been on my podcast. I like them. I think they're fine people, but they produce similar content, but are just too middle of the road. And some people, like middle of the road. Some people, like, they would say very. Like, bipartisan. Very. Yeah. Just like, we're trying to get everybody around the table, but there aren't as many people that are producing quality content like yours. That, again, it's personal, it's quality, and it's don't give a fuck. Like, I don't need. In other words, because your paycheck is not tied to this. Say what you need to say.
- [52:02]
A
Yeah.
- [52:03]
B
And, you know, research well and make sure you're not putting out bullshit and misinformation and disinformation. But. But, yeah, there's that. It comes across that you don't give a fuck what people think about you, whether they like it or share it. You're putting it out there, and obviously it's resonating with a lot of people, myself included. So I think that comes through.
- [52:23]
A
Thank you. Thank you. I mean, and it wasn't, you know, so I started it. It was the beginning of Pandemic, and then George Floyd was murdered, and we watched that. And then I was out protesting here in the city all the time, and I was going live on the page. So a lot of people were following me because of that, I think because everybody was stuck inside. I shouldn't have been out. Like, let's just say that for, like, disclaimer. I was. I was wearing a mask, but probably shouldn't have been out.
- [52:52]
B
Yeah.
- [52:54]
A
But I was out, and people were watching what was happening. And it wasn't just in New York. It was in, like, towns and cities across the country. At that time, we were dealing with a reckoning. And so still to this day, the largest percentage of people that follow the soapage are in New York City.
- [53:11]
B
Wow.
- [53:12]
A
So I built this kind of audience based on, like, I don't give a fuck. I'm gonna give you the information. You're gonna see the sources. So, you know, it's legit. And I'm also out in the streets, like, filming cop cars on fire. So I think it was this mix of information and activism that drew people in. Maybe and then Bernie dropped out and it was Biden and Trump. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna go so fucking hard on Trump. I'm gonna go so hard because I hate him. I don't like him. And I was very unapologetic about that and what I was posting.
- [53:49]
B
So 20, 16, 15 and 16, you get radicalized politically by. By Bernie Sanders.
- [53:55]
A
Yes.
- [53:57]
B
When did you. Let's. So the contents. Yeah. If people go back, which they should. If you're not following the so page, like go follow it and even scroll back and you can see sort of. Yeah. The different things that you took an intense amount of time to like explain and communicate to people. I also want to say before I get to. What I was going to say because it will feel awkward later to come back to this, is that I also think that people are very excited about the amount of. I don't know what to call it, other than alternative media that's sort of popping up all over the place. Like, you slow factory Hasan Piker on Twitch. Like, like them or not? Like, these are, these are, this is not traditional news. People are getting their news, but they're, they're saying, fuck CNN and MSNBC and all these trash. This very biased, partizan, Zionist capitalist trash. And they're saying, hey, we can go to these creators and I'm not going to. But you know, we're going to watch Hasan stream for 5, 6 hours on Twitch or we're going to go here and we're going to. Going to get the news, but in a way that resonates with us and where again, you're not bought and paid for by anybody, so you're going to tell it like it is and I can trust you more versus these talking heads on CNN or whatever. And so I think there is also, like we're in an age. I think it start. I think it started with Trump getting elected the first time and then I think it really picked up. You're sort of tracking with that, I think with COVID and George Floyd and the sort of Black Lives Matter movement that came out of that and now even more like with this genocide that we are incredibly complicit in. Do you see it that as well? Like, do you see yourself as an alternative media source, an alternative news platform, or do you hate everything I just said?
- [56:01]
A
No, like, I see the value in what you're saying. Like Democracy now has been kicking ass for what, 20, 30 years? Like they've been around. I think I give people, I share news on the page, you know, I think I've shifted way more towards that in the last two years than I was these explainer posts because I was like, how many times am I gonna explain what police and prison abolition is?
- [56:25]
B
Yeah.
- [56:26]
A
And how many different ways to go?
- [56:27]
B
It should take one time to radicalize people. But, yeah, you can only do it so many times.
- [56:30]
A
And I understand the value in, like, the soap H has drawn people in who otherwise wouldn't have given a. About anything that I've posted or talked about. And it has changed their minds. And I have at one point when I was spiraling mentally from. Because it is a lot. It's a lot of hate. Like, there's a lot of love, but there's way more hate. And I had, like, I used to screenshot nice messages and send them to my mom. I was like, see, mom, not everyone is terrible. Like, there are people who see value in this as my mom's. Like, why the are you doing this to yourself? Like, you're crying every day. So I, like, I made, like, a physical book. Like, I have a book of, like, the kindest messages of people who have absolutely no reason to send me these messages. Like, they're taking time out of their day to let me know that they have found value in what I've done. And that has kept me going in the times where I'm like, I could just delete this page in two seconds. I could disable it right now. And no one. It's going to impact no one, you know, like, because. Because there's no financial ties to it. So it's this thing that I just keep it going because I. My heart is in it. But I do know that people get something from it. And I don't know that I would call it alternative media to, like. It's not alternative to cnn.
- [57:51]
B
Right. It's something completely new.
- [57:53]
A
Yeah. I don't think I'm a journalist, and people say that frequently. It's like fucking Zionists lately are like, what makes you think you're a journalist? Why are you qualified to share the news? And I'm like, because I can. I'm not a journalist, but I can. And people trust what I'm sharing because I haven't been sharing bullshit. Like, I'm sharing real things that are happening. But I'm not gonna sugarcoat it and I'm gonna share it and it's gonna make you uncomfortable as fuck. And hopefully that pushes you forward instead of remaining in this, like, complacent CNN Anderson Cooper bullshit.
- [58:27]
B
Yeah.
- [58:27]
A
Like, I don't like a Word salad from anyone.
- [58:29]
B
Yeah.
- [58:29]
A
Politician, newscaster, Anyone. I want to just say things how they are. And so I don't know what that is.
- [58:37]
B
Love that I would just comment before we move on that. I do think you're a journalist. What is keeping you from calling yourself a journalist? Like, what is a journalist? A journalist is someone who. Yeah, sort of captures what's going on and communicates in a certain way. Sure. You didn't. You don't have some degree from Brown University or whatever, but, like, you're a journalist. Right. In the same way that we could go out and. With our phones.
- [58:59]
A
Yeah.
- [59:00]
B
And take beautiful photos.
- [59:02]
A
Yeah.
- [59:03]
B
And we could say, yeah, I'm a photographer. Look, the composition's great. The lighting's great. Like, I took a. I'm a photographer, you know? Like, I think so. Or. Or do you. Or do you not want to be called a journalist? Or you just don't think you're technically a journalist?
- [59:16]
A
I think it's a mix of a lot of. I think I'm a. I report. I think I'm a reporter.
- [59:21]
B
Sure.
- [59:21]
A
You know?
- [59:22]
B
Yeah, there's a difference there. Yep.
- [59:23]
A
I'm not. So, full disclosure, my aunt is a journalist for cbs. I grew up watching her. She's like a news anchor. She's a journalist. So that, to me, I think, is just. It's. That's the box of journalism. I don't fall into that box because while I'm reporting and while I'm taking videos, while I'm live streaming, I'm getting arrested and I'm telling cops to go themselves. And, like, it's a. It's a different. It's like a blend of maybe, like, activism, journalism, reporting. It's a weird. We need to think of a different word for it.
- [59:59]
B
Okay. That is our task, because I think you are that. But I completely agree with you that, like, you can either say, I'm. I'm the new kind of journalist or find something new altogether, because I wouldn't want to be lumped in with those motherfuckers.
- [60:11]
A
Yeah.
- [60:11]
B
Like, your aunt's probably a great person. But, like, there is a. There. Nope. Okay. There is a. I mean, but. There is a. But there is a. When you think journalist and reporter, like, you definitely think somebody safely behind a desk getting paid an insane amount of money to bullshit you and tell you their version of the events that are unfolding. And I wouldn't want to be associated with that either. But what you are doing is you're probably more of a journalist than they are.
- [60:39]
A
So just a Quick story on that. I guess one of my closest friends who is an organizer in the city, him and I kind. I, I mean, like I say, I helped, I, I made the graphics for it, like picked the place. But we had a vigil two weeks ago after the hospital bombing and burning alive of human beings that we all witnessed. We had a vigil and CBS showed up. That's where my aunt works. And so I said to the reporter, you know, don't get anybody's faces because I don't want these people getting doxxed. Don't get anybody's faces, please don't like ask people their names. Like, just be fucking cool if you're gonna be here. Don't get the women praying because we had like a, like, yeah, you know.
- [61:25]
B
Yep.
- [61:27]
A
So she asked if she could interview me. I said sure. I gave a very honest interview, which obviously never made it to the air. I told her twice who the organizers were, the groups that were organizing this. And then it airs and it was ironically, it was my aunt reporting it and just everybody's fucking faces in the footage. They just did everything opposite of what I said. They misreported who the organizers were, of course. So I had to text my aunt. I hadn't talked to her in like a year. And I reached out and I was like, I don't know how this works once you've reported it on air, but like, this needs to be corrected.
- [62:05]
B
Everything's wrong.
- [62:05]
A
This is wrong. I gave a five minute interview that I'm sure you could ask to see that obviously didn't make it to the air. And she apologized and had her supervisors pull it down from their website. So that to me is like, it was so fucking easy for them to report on this and just do this the right way. And they couldn't even do that. And so that just kind of validated even more. Not that I needed it, but like the media is just full of shit. So I have a big problem with that. So maybe that's why I don't want to be a journalist.
- [62:35]
B
No, I think you're right. I think it's like, let's. There's got to be new titles and new categories because the old ones need to go just like our old political systems need to go. Yeah, the way that things have been done is obviously not working. It's not working at all. And it's harming a lot of people. So, yeah, I completely get that. So now I'm going back to 10 minutes ago when I said needed to deviate for a Second, you were radicalized in 2016 by Bernie Sanders. When were you radicalized about Palestine? How did that happen for you? Which has resulted in you creating a lot of content and holding vigils and going to protests and reporting on them. How did that happen for you?
- [63:16]
A
I mean, I learned about Palestine because, like, you, I'm like, I like learning about. I, like, I'm a fucking nerd. I was not out doing cool things in high school. I was, like, sitting at home reading Hunter S. Thompson. Like, yeah, so I read about Rachel Corey on Tumblr.
- [63:34]
B
So I remember that.
- [63:35]
A
Yeah, Tumblr, showing our ages. Yeah, I read about Rachel Corey, and I was like, this is awful. I guess pictures of her and, like, the horrific photos of her were on Tumblr. That's how I learned about Palestine in general. I wasn't learning about that in school, so that's how I learned about Palestine. I was learning about the Occupation. And I'm like, I don't know if this is a thing. Like, I just, like, spiral. So, like, if I learn about something and it's, like, remotely interesting, I'll spiral. So I was on this for, like, a week in high school. Just. I wanted to know everything, but it didn't. I want to say, like, it's fucked. It didn't impact my life as a teenager. I didn't feel the impact of it. I didn't understand, like, the U.S. complicity.
- [64:21]
B
Yeah.
- [64:24]
A
It was brought up a lot during Occupy Wall Street. Palestine was a conversation on the streets. So that was kind of like, Maybe I was 15 when I learned about it then I'm 18, and I'm hearing more about it. Didn't really start getting into it until 2015 when Bernie was asked about it a lot. And that was a conversation because it was like, this Jewish man is running for office. Is he a Zionist? Is he not a Zionist? So that was a lot of, like, the Facebook groups. Like, Facebook is so dead now. It's so funny saying that. But, like.
- [64:55]
B
But it was big.
- [64:56]
A
I mean, it was big. Yeah, it was huge. The Bernie Sanders Facebook groups, it was a lot of that. And it was a lot of people, like, trying to dig into his past and then asking him directly about it. And he was pretty solid at the time. It was like, he was outspoken about the occupation, and. And so that was, like, hearing about it again. I feel like that was part of, like, you know, I say radicalization. It, like, really wasn't now in looking back. But, yeah, so 2020 made the so page. One of the first people to reach out to me, who is a dear friend. Now he runs let's Talk Palestine. And he's gonna laugh if he hears this, because I, like, I brought him up in another interview. I did, and he was cracking up. But he was one of the first people to reach out and be like, do you want to do a post together? He didn't have that page. He was just like, wanted to get this information out. And it was on the annexation of the west bank. And I thought it was incredibly important. And that was really the first time that I was posting anything that had nothing really directly to do with the U.S. like, that was my first foray into international reporting or talking about anything. And so we did that. It was really powerful post. And that was my first encounter with the Zionists online.
- [66:17]
B
And the way that even then they were coming.
- [66:19]
A
Holy though, man. I was crying for like a week straight because it was like, you hadn't.
- [66:25]
B
Built up your tolerance for him yet.
- [66:27]
A
I just didn't expect that because it was. It was what was happening. They were. They're annexing the west bank, they're stealing homes, they're stealing land. It's not up for debate, you know.
- [66:39]
B
Yes. You're not a tabloid. You're telling facts.
- [66:41]
A
The truth. Yes. And my thing has always been it's so important to include sources so that people who would, like, if they want to read more or if they're questioning what they're reading, they can go fucking look. Like, don't trust everything you see on Instagram in a slideshow. Like, go look further into it. Yeah. The way that they attacked me. And there was one point, this one girl, and I'll never forget this, was like, demanded to get on a phone call with me. A phone call. And so that thinking about that now, I'm like, that was fucking crazy. I got on the phone with this girl and she was going on and on about how, like, I need to just embrace Zionism, about how her sister's in the idf and, like, I have no idea what they have to go through. And she's going on and on. I let her talk for, like an hour. I didn't say anything. And at the end, I was just like, I don't agree with anything you just said. Like, you're not going to get anywhere with me. But I wanted to give you the space to say what you had to say. And then from that point on, I've just been like, there's been a Scarlet A or whatever. I've been targeted heavily by the Zionists online. Since then. So my friend who runs let's Talk Palestine is Palestinian. And so kind of seeing like the way that that hatred has impacted him as well. That too was for me, like, holy fuck. Like, I hate, I hate what I'm seeing. I hate these. Fuck. I hate the way that Zionists feel they can move, you know, Sure. I hate their fucking ideology. I hate what they stand for. I hate the excuses that they make for what they stand for.
- [68:24]
B
Yeah.
- [68:25]
A
And I think it is a weaponization of something horrific that happened in the past, the Holocaust. And they like to weaponize that to commit another holocaust. And that's where we're at now. But yeah, my first experience with Zionist was like the most basic, simple, like non controversial posts of all time about the annexation of the West Bank.
- [68:47]
B
This past year has been the most difficult year of my life. To be a human, to be a parent, to be a friend, to be someone that a number of people with, let's give a damn all around the world, you know, look to for direction. I've never. Not Trump, not Black lives matter, not anything else. Have I had more conversations, messages back and forth? I have sent a bajillion and I don't, I'm not exaggerating with that number. That's a real number. And I've sent that many voice messages on Instagram back and forth with people asking some are stupid questions and I don't answer those. But the legitimate questions, the ones that I think are coming from a place of. I'm really trying to figure this out. You know, this is what I think that I know. This is what I've seen, this is what I've heard, whatever. Like I've. This is the most incredibly up year of our lives. And we're not even the ones experiencing the, the genocide. Yeah, we are paying for it. And we do live and we, you know, outside of Israel, the most Zionists on the planet are within a few miles of us. Right. Like New York City is where it's at. Right. And so unlike other places where there might be a few Zionists but you can't really pick them out of the crowd. And then here, you, you know, I walk out with this or with this shirt or whatever and you know, like, you'll just see them on the train, just give you these like, looks. And I'm like, first of all, fuck you. But also they're just everywhere, right? So I think it is especially difficult being wildly pro Palestine here. And so it's just been, it has been an incredibly hard year. And I'M so exhausted and I'm so tired. And again, I'm not putting, I'm not saying obviously what they're going through is horrific, but this whole year, this is what I'm getting at is like other years as an activist, as a creator, as someone who. I hate this title, but it's people, like, as someone who is a full time change maker, like, sounds so hokey. People call me that. As someone who does this stuff full time. Like, I have never spent so much time working on, processing through, speaking up about one single thing in my life.
- [71:10]
A
Yeah.
- [71:11]
B
And I'm exhausted. Are you exhausted? How are you doing? What are you doing to stay remotely sane? Like, this is fucked up.
- [71:21]
A
Yeah. How am I doing? That's such an odd.
- [71:27]
B
Like, we don't get that. We don't get the, we don't get the privilege. We could. If you shut your page down and if I shut my stuff down.
- [71:33]
A
Yeah.
- [71:33]
B
But like, we don't get the privilege of like checking out for all that long.
- [71:37]
A
Y.
- [71:37]
B
Because again, people are counting on us. We have put ourselves in a position where we are, we are informing people in some way, shape or form about how to think about it or what's happening. Right. So we don't. Like a lot of my friends, they have just. I don't love that they've checked out, but they've checked out for their, you know, I get it, take care of yourself, take care of your people. I totally get it. But they can do it because they work at like Home Depot and they show up and they leave and it's, you know, check out and it's done and they can go back to their right, they can do that. We can't. So like, it's tough, right?
- [72:11]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I felt like that about everything since I started the soap age, where it's like, I can't stop. Like I can't stop even for a day. Like, I can't stop. This is so different. This is when you're hearing children on a video from Gaza asking people, please keep talking about this. And it's like a six year old child. Who the fuck am I to stop talking about? You know what I mean? Like, it's so. It's that and I think it's. One of my friends and I recently had a conversation. I counted how many protests I've been to since October of last year because we got pissed. Like, he's an incredible photographer and he's out on the streets every single protest. His work is amazing. I shared on the SO page. I'M like, honored to be sharing his work. We met out at a protest, and he posted something. Someone was like, oh, all you do is sit online saying this to me. All you do is sit online. Like, you don't actually get out of your house and do anything. And he got so offended. Like, what the fuck? You, of all people. And it was like, shortly after, I got arrested, too. So I was like, I'm going to count. This was two months ago. I had been to, like, 79 protests in a year. In less than a year at that point.
- [73:33]
B
10 months.
- [73:33]
A
And it's been, like, more than that now. And I've started in the last several months. I've started, like, helping to, like, on the organizing side, too. And I've gotten to experience that. And so I think that is what's keeping me going. Being surrounded by other people who are incredible, very, very driven. And, you know, the group that I am out at, all of their actions, and I've had the honor of being able to, like, work behind the scenes with them is within our lifetime. They're the most principled group in the city. They're actually doing the fucking work. They're actually Palestinian. Like, they're actually in this for the right reasons. They're not taking money from anybody. And now they. They're being targeted heavily right now. There's a campaign being spearheaded by fucking Zionists, obviously, but to get them classified as a hate group.
- [74:29]
B
Oh, my God.
- [74:30]
A
In the city. And so they're, like, appealing to fucking Richie Torres.
- [74:33]
B
Of course Richie.
- [74:33]
A
And they're appealing to Eric Adams. Yeah. And Kathy Hochul, who also fucked Kathy Hochul. I helped get her elected, and I am sick about it every day. Like, not that Lee Zeldin would have been better, but still. It's like, I. I struggle honestly on a personal level with how many of these politicians I had previously amplified, interviewed, put, you know, all my effort into getting them elected, and now they're, like, the most genocidal psychopaths you can imagine. John Fetterman.
- [75:01]
B
Oh, God, I was. What an enormous disappointment. One of the biggest.
- [75:05]
A
One of the biggest.
- [75:06]
B
Yeah. I was rooting for. What we probably both rooted for was, like, this guy who was, like, pretty disheveled and just, like, didn't give a fuck. That's what I liked about him is that he didn't give a fuck.
- [75:16]
A
Yeah.
- [75:16]
B
So I was like, we need more people like this.
- [75:18]
A
Yep.
- [75:19]
B
In. As lawmakers in. In the halls, sitting at. Around the. Like, we need more John Fetterman. Like, the idea of a John Fetterman Now, I would say that you don't need more John Fetterman. Fuck him. But like, that's. Yeah, I fought so hard. I was so proud of, like, I felt like he was kind of. I mean, he's a big guy, but like underdog, like bucking the system.
- [75:37]
A
Yeah.
- [75:37]
B
One of the most. Obviously, I didn't vote for him. I live here. But. But I put. I put time into convincing people in Pennsylvania and how many people have we. Yeah, Obama. Fuck Hillary Clinton. Like all these people in. And even. Even. Yeah, 2020, you know, it was one of the most horrific vote. I already knew back then. It was one of my least favorite votes that I had ever cast was for Joe Biden, and I did it. It was not a vote for Joe Biden. It was a vote. It was a fuck Trump vote. But I still regret it. Like, if I could go back now, I would have said, let the chips fall where they fall. I'm not voting for that guy.
- [76:21]
A
Yep.
- [76:22]
B
You know, but yeah, we have done this so many times, and it's. It's something that we have to learn from. I don't. I don't even think it's a live with because it's part of life. Like, we didn't know. We didn't know.
- [76:31]
A
Yeah.
- [76:32]
B
But we have to learn from it for sure.
- [76:34]
A
It's definitely propelled me so far away from helping campaigns, and I was working with so many. I was working with the Biden campaign, and then they were like, he won. His transition team was getting me on a zoom. Like, we'd love to keep this going. You know, we want to have this partnership with you. And this was in December, before inauguration. Before inauguration. And I said very plainly to them, no, because I want to be able to criticize him. I got him in. I helped you get him in.
- [77:04]
B
Yeah.
- [77:04]
A
I want to be able to criticize him. So I can't have any sort of partnership with you. And then I was put on a press list, which is another very interesting aspect of politics is the way that they'll feed things to the press that are only positive things. I didn't share any of that shit. He took office. He dropped some airstrikes on Syria immediately. I was like, fuck this guy. And people hated it. How dare you criticize him? And that has been the tone since he took office. How dare you criticize him? But I was very subscribed to this idea that the only way to tear the house down is to get inside and tear it down. It's not possible. And I think the Biggest example of that is aoc, who is like a colossal fucking disappointment. Because I believed in aoc, I went hard for aoc. For what? Yeah, for what?
- [77:58]
B
Yep.
- [77:59]
A
You get in, you get corrupted immediately. The only people that they couldn't corrupt are now not in office at Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman, who I am proud to have helped get into office.
- [78:09]
B
Yep.
- [78:10]
A
And I'm proud of what they did while they were in office, and I'm proud that they stood on their principles, and they were. And now they've been eliminated. And I think that is the perfect example of politics in this country. It's like, you can't have principles, you can't have ethics. You can't have, really, a strong stance on what matters, or they're gonna make sure that you don't have that position anymore.
- [78:32]
B
I've been urged many times to run for some sort of office.
- [78:37]
A
Oh, me too. Yeah.
- [78:38]
B
Yeah, Right. Yeah. I mean. And you couldn't pay me enough money, too. Like, literally. I don't care what it is because I don't believe in the system anymore. It doesn't work. It works for a few. And if you are principled, they will kick your ass out the door as soon as they possibly can. So you spend, you know, you get four years to do what? Fight against these people that already want you out. They didn't want you to get in, and now you're in and they want you out. And they're going to fight every single day to get you out. So you spend your entire time just trying to survive instead of actually doing your job. Absolutely not. I need to stay in a position where I can actually affect change, where I can make change, where I can rally people, where I can build community, where we can move inch by inch toward collective liberation and not be weighed down by any having to wear a suit or a tie or show up at some meeting that's going to go nowhere. So I guess let's move into our last section. Thank you so much for your time.
- [79:35]
A
Yeah.
- [79:37]
B
The last thing I want to talk about for today anyway is this will release on the Tuesday, a week before election Day.
- [79:46]
A
Let the listeners know. I just. My spine straightened when you said that.
- [79:51]
B
But that also might have just been a reaction to. Yeah. How painful.
- [80:00]
A
Yeah.
- [80:01]
B
Thinking about this election is.
- [80:02]
A
Yeah.
- [80:03]
B
So I want to begin by reiterating that I have tried very hard. Reiterating to the listeners. I've tried very hard. I haven't always succeeded, but I've tried very hard even in this election, which to not tell people how to vote. I'm not, I don't want to tell you how to vote. I think I have, I have incredible friends. I have incredible friends that somehow in their conscience, they are damn givers. They are. They fight for all the right things and they have. Where they have landed is we've got to vote for Kamala. Like, fuck her, but we've got to vote for her because Trump will be worse even for, even for Palestine. Da, da. And they figured out how they can do that. And I, not once now I have told them to lay off when they try to like pressure me for an answer. But I don't. I'm not, I'm not going to tell people not to do that. So we're not, for the next few minutes, we're not going to tell people. Well, you can. I'm not going to tell you how to vote. But what I do want to say, but I do want to talk about playing off of what we just. What we just talked about. How about the system doesn't work anymore? I just don't. I just fundamentally don't believe. Not. Not. I don't, I don't not believe in voting, but I don't believe that any of this fucking matters. Like it doesn't matter. I believe a lot of it is. It's like the next president has already been determined, like it's going to happen. I don't know who that is just yet, but it's already determined. This is a fucking game that they've realistened to. And we like puppets, every four years just go. And we don't even think. Most Americans don't even think down ballot. They're just thinking the very, at the very tippy top. And these people are not here to save us. Neither of them. And I say neither because I'm not like the third party thing just hasn't gained enough traction to even like, I have a lot of friends as well that are voting for Jill Stein. I can't. I think she's an opportunist. I think she's a grifter. I can't do the Jill Stein thing now. Butch Ware is a different story. But he's not running and he's going to be a vp. What I know about him, I kind of like, I think he's kind of that like buck the system sort of a person as well. But Jill Stein has spent her entire career not getting elected for stuff. She has spent her entire career, the last 25 years making millions of dollars. Literally her livelihood has come from Convincing people to vote for her for a position that she's not going to get.
- [82:26]
A
Yeah.
- [82:26]
B
And so anyway, so my personal is like, again, vote for Jill. If you think that that's where you need vote. Needs to go, vote for Jill. At this point, I. I'm not voting for anyone because I am focused on not giving the system my vote and also focused on creating, like, actual legitimate community and figuring out a playbook. Figuring out a playbook for what we're going to do if and when Empire falls. Because my problem with the. I'll let you talk in a second. I want to get all this out, though. My problem with. I lean toward burn it all down. I lean toward just burn the whole fucking thing down. Which is why I won't vote for Kamala. That might change in a week. I'm allowing myself to feel all the things, and in a week, I might make a different decision. Right now, she has not done one goddamn thing to earn my vote. So what I want to talk with you about is there's a lot of this, burn the system down, burn it all down. And I'm on board with that. But then I'm going to speak to myself and say, okay, Nick, if you're on board with burning everything down, what's your plan? What's the playbook? Because historically, all we have to do is look at all these types of revolutions and who gets fucked every single time? Women, children, and minorities. So I'm starting to ask myself and everybody else, okay, I get it. Burn the whole thing down. Like, Empire, Be gone. But what's our plan? Because right now, if Empire falls, a lot of the people that we have worked tirelessly to protect and help are going to be the first to get fucked. Yeah, that doesn't sound like a good. That doesn't sound like a good deal either. I'm pro revolution, but I'm pro revolution with, like. I get it's going to be chaotic, but, like, can we have a plan for how we're. Are there enough people bought into community, like, real community, so that we can support each other through this? Because I don't see it. I have a lot. I feel like a lot of people are pay lip service to community and to collective liberation. But push comes to shove, they're the first. They're going to protect themselves and they're going to fucking bolt, and they're not going to stay once the revolution dust begins to settle and there are bodies everywhere. So that's where I'm at. Like, burn it all down, but also let's not burn it down because we're not ready for it. We are not ready to deal with the fallout of the system toppling your thoughts heavily.
- [84:58]
A
Burn it down, but also have. Yeah, have a plan. I don't think that there's a reality in this country, the way that this country is set up. I mean, think about in France. They burn the fucking city down in Paris, like, every weekend.
- [85:13]
B
Yeah.
- [85:13]
A
But, like, actually burn shit down, but it's not burning the system down. And I do think that in the US And I talk about this frequently for years on the SO page, we are trapped in such an individualistic society where people are more concerned. Like, I'm more concerned about myself. I need to put my own oxygen mask on first before I can give a fuck about somebody else's. That thinking has been instilled in us on purpose so that we will never see something burn down. They want us to be more concerned about ourselves and. And not tap into community, not have community. And by they, I do mean, like, the fucking US Government and people in power. That's how I view it, is. We have been, like, conditioned to only give a fuck about ourselves. And those of us who do tap into community and who we see the value in community and what that can mean in a burn it all down reality were, like, the fucking radical outcasts. Right. And I, like, in the last year especially, I reject that so much.
- [86:20]
B
Yeah.
- [86:21]
A
I'm not fudgeing radical. I think the people who are, like, more concerned about themselves. You're the radical people.
- [86:26]
B
Yeah.
- [86:27]
A
These liberals who are like, I need to think if I want to say this. The other content creators, the liberals who are doing hotties for Kamala and having fucking vending machines of condoms with Kamala Harris's face on, them parties while I'm sitting and watching babies with their fucking skulls blown up. And I'm saying, how the fuck can you mindlessly, like, vote for Kamala Harris? She put her platform out after months of me saying. Not even months. It was like a month and a half. She doesn't even have a fucking platform. No, she doesn't have a plan. And in essence, the Democrats don't have a plan for us.
- [87:12]
B
Yep.
- [87:12]
A
She put her platform out. And it wasn't a platform. It was quotes from her rallies and her interviews. That's what it is. It's direct quotes.
- [87:21]
B
But what's your plan? Right. There's no plan.
- [87:24]
A
Yeah. So what I'm saying is, is, like, I hear what you're saying, and I actually had, like, a falling out with a really good friend because of this. When he was like, well, if Kama loses, what's your plan for Trump? What's your plan? What's your plan? And he kept pushing that. And I'm like, community and taking care of each other, mutual aid and making sure that we're good and we're safe. And we're not going to let the system under Trump, which will be baby fascism, if not full blown fascism.
- [87:52]
B
Yep.
- [87:53]
A
That's going to hurt people. Y. I know that most logical people know what is going to happen under a Trump presidency. We know because we've lived it. And I think it's just going to be accelerated. But also, Democrats have no plan.
- [88:06]
B
Yeah.
- [88:07]
A
They have no plan. And I think what. What is called the fringe left. So you and I. Yeah. Saying tap into community, take care of each other, make sure your neighbors are good, make sure your friends are good, make sure people are healthy and safe and have the avenues of health and not even wealth, but just like, help. People need help. And the government is not going to help us under Kamala or Trump. They're not gonna help us. So what is the plan is for both of them. For me, that's. For me. I'm not thinking so far ahead because I don't think we're gonna burn the system down anytime soon. I really don't. I don't think there's enough of us with that mindset who can even envision what a better future would look like? There's, like, you and I, we could talk about it. What is a. An ideal country? What would an ideal thriving society look like? And then we're called crazy, we're called radical, because not enough people are there yet.
- [89:09]
B
Yeah. I mean, you went exactly where I wanted you to go.
- [89:12]
A
Because that was a test.
- [89:14]
B
Well, no, it wasn't a test, but it was like I wanted to. So I already have my answer. And you gave the answer, which is, you know, I. I asked, like, do you have a plan? No, it. You can't have a plan for this.
- [89:29]
A
Yeah.
- [89:30]
B
Until it starts to topple.
- [89:32]
A
Yeah.
- [89:32]
B
Because. Because especially here, other places where they've experienced just tremendous amounts of suffering, they've. They have a track record and they. They've over. Over time, they've put together what it looks like to take care of each other.
- [89:44]
A
Yeah.
- [89:45]
B
We are so. We're in such a bubble and we're so privileged and everything. Like, the other day I was. I was having a conversation with a friend about these things about voting or not voting or what. And just about what's going on? And we're. She and I are very much on the same page. And we were sitting at Madison Square park and I was like. I was like, here we are talking about dismembered babies and a horrific genocide that we're paying for. And I just looked up and I'm around and I'm like, this is not real.
- [90:14]
A
Yeah.
- [90:14]
B
I love living in New York. I hope that I can figure out how to stay in, like, not leave this country, because I want to leave every single day and, like, stay here in New York because this is the best place on earth. But it's not real. It's fake. It's built with money that wasn't. That didn't belong to the person that built it. Like, none of this is real. It's so fucking fake. And so I don't think we're ever going to get. We can talk. And I have so many great friends here in Brooklyn. Joelle Leon and Fred. Fred Joseph and others that I love.
- [90:45]
A
Fred, I love Fred so much.
- [90:48]
B
And like, we're not gonna. We can have. We can start to assemble a plan. But until you lose people that you love and until your actual house burns down and until you feel the pressure of, oh, my God, what are we gonna do? Then you start to put together the plan. Because until it's real, me talking about, like, like you have a. You have a tattoo. The Toni Morrison. The function of freedom is to free someone else, right? Yeah. And I saw that on a picture somewhere and I love that so much. And it reminded me of nobody's free until everybody's free. Fannie Lou Hamer. Like, we're so privileged that we can talk. We can only talk now. I have. I have a little bit more. Like, I grew up in Guatemala. The last few years of a war. Like, I've seen people get murdered in front of me. They tried to kidnap me once. Like, I've seen some shit, but not like Palestine shit, like Guatemala shit. It's a little different, but it's still intense.
- [91:40]
A
Yeah.
- [91:40]
B
But those that haven't experienced that, this playbook that we're beginning to assemble about community and how to like, take empire down and then survive, can't really be written until we can talk. In theory, yeah. But until, like the rubber hits the fucking road, like, you can't really see how you feel about it until you're actually experiencing it. Like, am I going to stick around or. Or am I gonna be a self centered white Westerner and just take off? You could say that you're all in. But in fact, a couple months ago, I was talking with a group of friends. Again, amazing friends, but they're all, with very few exceptions, all gonna vote for Kamala. And this person that grew up in. I won't say the country, in case they're listening, they grew up in another country that had experienced lots and lots of oppression. Mm. And in his response to this conversation that I had sort of started there about, like. Like, we. We. We have to get free. This is not freedom, what we're experiencing, he was like, I'll be honest. If shit hits the fan, I'm out. I'm grabbing my wife and my dog, and we are out. I'm not sticking around to fight. And it literally, like, part of me is like, I get that human reaction where you're like, I got to take care of my people. And also, I'm really surprised at that, like, knowing your history and your people that you would just, like, piece out the first chance you got. No apology, just, like, I'm out. Really made me question. Because he's a community builder. He's a professed, like, community builder. And, like, he teaches people how to live, like, very meaningful lives and this and that and the other. And I was like, I don't know if I believe you anymore. You know, I don't know.
- [93:25]
A
I think it's multi layered.
- [93:28]
B
Yeah.
- [93:28]
A
I think it's like, my Palestinian friends. Why the fuck would they stay here and fight for this country after what they've been put through? Why the fuck would they do that? Like, I wouldn't blame them. That would be. I would get them plane tickets out of here. Like, they. There's absolutely no reason for oppressed people in this country to fight for a better reality. That's how I feel. And I know that that's, like, a crazy thing maybe to say, but, like, the onus shouldn't be on oppressed people to do the work to make a better reality, because they're not the ones creating the reality that we exist in already. So I feel like it's on privileged people. It's on white people. It's on wealthy people. It's on the people who would have the least to lose if everything burns down, to make sure that we're solid. If it burns down. You know what I mean? I don't know if that makes sense. Like, my brain is scrambled trying to get those words out.
- [94:23]
B
But, like, no, I completely agree. The person that I'm speaking of has lived a pretty privileged life.
- [94:30]
A
Okay.
- [94:31]
B
And again, if you're going to Put yourself in the position of being someone that, like, is teaching people how to, like, create community.
- [94:38]
A
Yeah.
- [94:39]
B
Like, you gotta, in my mind, put your money where your mouth is. Like, this person hasn't directly experienced oppression, just their. Like, their ethnic background, where they're from. It's a lot of it there. So I agree with you. And maybe. Maybe I. Maybe even for this individual I'm thinking of that I love and see all the time. I love this person. Maybe I need to change how I think about them. But the bottom line is, like, I just feel like. So, yes, thank you for those thoughts. I totally agree. No, there are people that should not, cannot, should not. They should not be compelled to make shit happen here. This is not their fight. They came here probably being sold a false bill of goods about security and about safety and about everything, and they should get the fuck out as quickly as they possibly can. I guess just in the end, what I've been trying to communicate to people about the election is I honestly don't care. I'll say one more thing. I won't tell you who. I have a journalist friend who is Lebanese. He's amazing. He's amazing. Super left. And he told me. Oh, should I even say this? Yeah, I'll say it, because nobody will know who it is. He told me that he. He voted for Trump. Obviously, he hates Trump. Yeah, he voted for Trump as a vote for Empire toppling.
- [96:02]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [96:02]
B
Like, let's quicken. Let's quicken the toppling of the Empire. And that was the first person I encountered that did that. Like, I personally don't think I could smash that button or whatever we're gonna have to do. Fill it in. I would prefer at this point to, like, withhold my vote completely because, again, I don't believe in the system at all.
- [96:18]
A
Yeah.
- [96:19]
B
But there's. There's a. I don't want to tell people where and how to vote. I just want people to be thinking. I want people. When they go to the polls or don't go to the polls, it's, are you in? Are you in? Regardless of what comes. If there's bloodshed or if there is. If there is, however, the. The Empire topples. We love. We love rooting on Katniss Everdeen. Right. But, like, I don't ever want to be in her position where she has to fight against Empire. We love Luke Skywalker and we love all these movies that show us Empire toppling. We love it. We're always rooting for the. We're always rooting for the terrorists. For those of you listening, I'm doing air quotes because they're not terrorists. They're Resistance. But, like, we love rooting for the Resistance until it's our turn or until we see it happening in real life and then we're like, nah, just like, step in line. Just, like, get back in line. Shut up. Empire knows what's best for you, and I think we're coming to the end of that. I really do. I don't know if it's, like, now or four years or eight years or 12 years. That's all current day for me. Like, that's in our lifetime. But I think it's coming.
- [97:21]
A
Yeah, I believe it. I believe it. I think for what it's worth, if it's worth anything, I'm in for it. I'm. And the thing is, if you're out on the streets with us every week, especially here in New York City, I know it's happening other places, but in New York City, what we're experiencing and what we're witnessing at the hands of the NYPD and the fucking politicians that are, like, okaying it, and they're fine with it, and they're actually encouraging more of it. If you were out at any of the encampments, if you've seen what I have seen and you're still out every week, you're for the shit. You're going to be there when Empire falls. Like, those are the people.
- [98:03]
B
I agree.
- [98:04]
A
And people ask me all the time on the SO page, like, I don't know how to tap in a community. Go out. Yeah, get out on the streets. That. Those are your fucking people. 100%, those are your people. If Empire falls tomorrow, I know who I'm calling. I have my people. Because they're already out on the streets anyways.
- [98:20]
B
And. And regardless of where you live, like, I get it that we're. We see it in abundance here. We have so many allies, right, in the resistance movement. But anywhere, I mean, I guarantee you whatever small town you live in, whatever. Whatever red state you live in, you can, like, get out. Like, the. The Internet is your friend. Like, you will find groups that are resisting Empire in all sorts of ways. They might be three people, but that's your community. Whether you're marching, whether you're making content, whatever you're doing, showing up at a meeting, getting arrested, like, whatever it is. Like, you can. Again, I don't care where you are. Name your city, name your town, name your red. Whatever, you can find people.
- [99:02]
A
Yeah.
- [99:02]
B
Yeah. So find those people, because yeah. If, if and when Empire begins to topple like those are, those will be your people that will look after you and they'll look after them. Even if your family flees, even if your other, you know, your church friends flee. Because they're going to flee.
- [99:15]
A
Probably the first ones, they'll be the.
- [99:17]
B
First ones to go.
- [99:19]
A
Yeah. I think, you know, I'm also very much like, I've told no one who to vote for.
- [99:25]
B
Yeah.
- [99:26]
A
I've been pushing ballot measures because I think those are important. Those are going to have the most impact on your day to day life. Yeah. I'm not telling people who to vote for. I've literally been going with you. Do what you feel you have to do.
- [99:40]
B
Amen.
- [99:40]
A
Do what you gotta do and do not browbeat somebody else who feels like they have to do what they have to do.
- [99:46]
B
Agreed. Yeah.
- [99:47]
A
It's that simple.
- [99:48]
B
Yep. Okay. We did a lot.
- [99:52]
A
We did.
- [99:54]
B
Thank you so much.
- [99:55]
A
Thank you.
- [99:57]
B
Obviously, people, if they just, even if they type so into their Instagram, your page will come up. But what else do you, what else do you want people to know about what you're doing? Where else to find you besides Instagram? Or is just Instagram where you want people to go?
- [100:10]
A
Instagram is all I can handle, to be honest with you. It's a lot. Yeah, yeah. Instagram, find me on Instagram. So informed. Free Palestine.
- [100:20]
B
Free Palestine. Free, Free everyone. That's. That's the goal. Thank you so much, Jess. This was wonderful.
- [100:27]
A
Thank you.
- [100:33]
B
Friends. Thank you so much for showing up and for spending some time with Jess and me today to find links for everything mentioned in today's conversation and to keep up with all things let's Give a damn. Visit letsgivadamn.com Please share this episode with a friend. Please leave us a five star rating and review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. And please show up next week. Hopefully when we have our next episode out. We have many more incredible, incredible conversations coming your way. Chad Snavely, Jess Collins Harn and the incredible team at Sounddown Studios made this episode. The music is by our friend Propaganda. You can reach out anytime and for any reason at. Hello, let's Give a damn dot com. Keep giving a damn, my friends. I love you all. Bye for now.