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- [00:00]
A
What's up damn givers? Welcome to the let's Give a Damn podcast. A show where I get to have conversations with incredible people who aim to lead the planet much better than they found it. And then I get to share those conversations with you. I'm your host, Nick lapara, and I'm so incredibly glad you're here. This episode is brought to you by fans and friends of this podcast. AKA you. Well, some of you anyway. In case you didn't know, let's Give a Damn is on Patreon and for a few dollars a month you can help us make the podcast week after week after week. I'll be honest, creating and producing a podcast, especially as a self employed, one man show entrepreneur, is not easy and it's not cheap. Not complaining, it's just the reality. So if you learned from the show and if you love this show, consider joining our Patreon. Visit patreon.com let's give a Damn to learn more or less. Or you can just Google Patreon and let's Give a Damn together and our page will pop right up. Hit me up@helloetsgivadam.com if you have any questions at all. Another way you can support this show is by purchasing some of our merch. The most popular item, and the one I get stopped every single day on the street about, is our trucker hat. If you follow me on socials, I'm wearing it in basically every post that I'm in. When you buy a hat or a hoodie or a tee, remember that all items in our store have shipping and tax already included in the price. So visit letsgivadam.com store today to support us. Friends, before I introduce my guest, my wonderful guest today, a quick apology. Well, not an apology really, maybe more like an explanation. The last time I released a podcast episode, which was in February, which with Ed Begley Jr. I explained why it had been so long since our last podcast episode and I promised to release more often. Well, here we are almost two months later and we are just now getting the next episode out. And I've been getting messages from many of you asking when the next episode is coming out. Y', all, I'm gonna be honest with you, these days continue to be so difficult. Between the ongoing genocide in Gaza, the rise of Dear Leader and fascist Overlord Trump, the targeting of Palestinian activists, trans folks, immigrants, refugees, I could go on and on. All of this is super, super heavy. Plus, I'm trying to make a living in the midst of it all. All that to say I've been doing a lot of head down work and putting out podcasts. Just hasn't been on the front burner. But I hope that it's changing soon. I have incredible conversations coming next week. My podcast conversation with Taylor Lorenz comes out next month. My conversation with Ibram Kendi. I'll be also be interviewing JP Sachs soon and so many others. So thank you, thank you, thank you for your patience. Friends, my guest this week is the magnificent Maggie Smith. Now you might be thinking, Nick, how in the world is Dame Maggie Smith on the podcast? She's gone. May she rest in peace. Not that Maggie Smith. I know that's a dumb joke, but I felt I needed to make it. I am talking about poet, writer, author and teacher Maggie Smith. And y' all are in for a treat. I first learned of Maggie Smith about four or five years ago when a good friend of mine quoted her poem Good Bones during a talk that she was giving. It blew me the hell away. If you haven't heard Good Bones or read Good Bones, push pause, go to Google and go read it right away. Then come back to this podcast as a father, or as a papa as we call it in our home, as a papa to three incredible little ones. This poem has impacted me deeply over the years and so I started reading more and more from Maggie. And as I tell her in this conversation, her words and her work have been helping me for years. And I got to have her on the podcast to talk about all sorts of things, but especially her brand new book, Dear Pep talks and practical advice for the creative life, even if you're not a writer. Get it. You'll find it extremely, extremely helpful. Now, before we begin, friends, a quick reminder as always that you can email me anytime and for any reason@helloetsgiveadam.com you can ask questions, recommend future guests, tell me how much you love or hate the show. Anything goes. I just love hearing from you. And don't forget, if you prefer to watch your podcasts instead of listen to them, we're on YouTube as well. And now let's get right into my conversation with my new friend and one of my favorite poets, Maggie Smith. Maggie Smith, welcome to the let's Give a Damn podcast.
- [05:04]
B
Well, it's good to be here. Thanks for having me.
- [05:07]
A
I am so. You're welcome. And I am so thrilled you're here. I have been a fan of you and your work. Your. You and your work have sustained me in various ways over the past four or five years. And so I'm Just really, really grateful for you. And we have so much to get into today. For starters, happy week before publication day. It's a week for me, right?
- [05:29]
B
It is. It's a week from. From today. I just realized that this morning, I'm like, oh, it's Tuesday. New release day in the book world. Which means it's my. I have one more Tuesday to go. So. Yeah, I'm excited.
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A
Yeah, you're almost there.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I didn't start out. We're. We're like 270 or 80 episodes into this podcast, and I didn't start out interviewing a lot of authors, but as time has gone on, I'm a big reader. I love reading, and books have been very formative to me and many in my community, and so authors have been more recurring. And thankfully, I had started out releasing our podcast on Tuesdays, so it works out for a lot of the podcasts that I've done, because, you know, we just launched naturally on. On a Tuesday. This is your tenth book, though, right? Tenth. Am I right?
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B
I think it might be my eighth.
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A
Okay.
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B
But honestly, I'm gonna take the two bonus books that you just give me. That you just gave me. I mean, I. I actually. I do have two more books coming out in the next year, so.
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A
Yes, you do. Okay. So it'll be 10 or 12, whatever you've written, whatever. You've written more books than most people will ever write. Does. Does it feel any different releasing your tenth as it does your first?
- [06:41]
B
Yeah, for sure. From. From what. I mean, I realized 20, 25. So it's been 20 years since my first book came out. This feels much different. I mean, my first book, I was in my 20s. It was a book of poems. I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't go on tour. I worked in a cubicle. I had no days off that I could, you know, conceivably schlep a box of books around the country out of my car, which is what it would have been at that time. And so it definitely. I mean, now this is what I do full time, and I'm older and a little bit wiser, I would like to believe. So the. The. The sort of scale and process of it in the time that I'm allowed to and expected to devote to it, it's different than it was with book one. But the process of writing a book feels basically the same. It's just releasing the book that feels a little different.
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A
Yeah, that makes total sense, man. I can't imagine. I'm kind of. I Am in a similar spot to where you were 20 years ago in that I, I'm an aspiring writer. I write, you know, things from time to time. But I've been asked by multiple book agents and publishing houses to write a book because of the work that I do. They're like, there's a book in there somewhere, right?
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B
Yeah.
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A
So I've been trying and trying and trying to like. So in my mind, writing is in my future. Being an author is in my future. I literally have lost. This is sort of embarrassing, but three agents have moved on. Not for just because I didn't get. They're just like, I can't wait around all fucking day for you. Like you've got or year. Like you've got to get me something that I can, you know, then go pitch.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And so, but when this happens, it won't even nearly be like a full time. So it'll be, it'll be, you know, like many of my friends who are first time authors or they have another job and they have to figure out how to make it work. I'm so glad we're, we're so lucky that you're now in the place where you can, you know, really push these books. It's your full time thing and you can really make sure they go all the places they need to. But yeah, 20 years to get here. So that's, that's crazy. It's a lot.
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B
We're playing the long game here and it's like, I think it's helpful to know that and to think about it that way, especially if you're at the beginning, is to know that like even the quote unquote, overnight success at anything is not like they've been toiling in the dark, probably alone, failing more than they're succeeding for many years before. Before you thought of them as a flash in the pan.
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A
Yes.
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B
So I mean we're playing the long game here and time never made anything worse. So I get the like feeling bad about having an agent move on and not being able to get something out the door quickly. But sometimes what you need is that like six more months of gestation on the thing actually makes it better.
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A
Better.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah. And everything is, everything's going to happen. You know, the, the everything's. The people that need to be involved when it actually happens are the right people for it. You know, it wasn't the last three agents and God love them, but like it wasn't them and it, it isn't going to be. Yeah. So I'm. That's Great, great advice. Thank you. We're going to jump into some of your story before we get to the book. But before we jump into your story, I have an Ohio question. Okay, so the Ohio question is my kids who go to public school in Manhattan, right? They're like city, city kids. We live in Harlem. A few months ago, they started talking non stop about Ohio.
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B
Oh, the slang.
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A
Yes. So Ohio is everywhere. I mean, they literally could not stop talking about Ohio.
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B
Yes. Skibidi, Skibidi, Tibety Ohio.
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A
Yes. Whatever the hell that is.
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B
I don't know either.
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A
So you don't. So you don't know?
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B
Not really. I mean, yeah, I have a middle schooler and a high schooler and my middle schooler came home and, you know, it's. I, I pick up the slang as much as I can. Like, I know what mid means, I know what sus means. Like, by the time I get it, it's, it's like old, right? And then you can't, like, mom, no one's saying that anymore. And I'm like, it's been three weeks. Like, I can't, I can't keep up. But yeah, the, the skibidi thing and the Ohio thing, I'm like, Ohio's not an adjective. It's right. I don't, I don't know. I don't really get it.
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A
And if it were negative. Well, yeah, it's like, if it were like, what is it describing? Like. And no, no, none of my kids are deeply uncool.
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B
I don't know.
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A
Well, and then they ask about that. They ask about go. They were like, can we go to Ohio? And I'm like, sure. Like, it's nothing. It's not like it's nothing.
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B
Go ahead, say it.
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A
It's nothing special. Yeah, like, but we'll go. Like, we'll go. It's not New York. It's not. You know what I'm saying? But I just wondered. I just didn't know if you had any background, because I've asked them and they don't know. They just say it. They just say the words.
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B
I love that. That somehow the whole like skibidy Ohio thing could make this a tourist destination. Like, maybe we should, we should really capitalize on that.
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A
And somebody should.
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B
Billboards.
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A
Yeah, somebody should, like, come. Who? Whoever's working in tourism in Ohio. If they haven't grabbed onto it, they're really missing.
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B
Yeah, exactly.
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A
Yeah. Okay, so I already mentioned you're in Ohio. I, I do. With all of my guests. Before we get to whatever the Work is whatever the project is, whatever the thing is that we've come to talk about, the story is. The background is always so important to me. Not just because I want to get to know you more, but also because as guests, as my people tell their stories, there's always clues, there's always things. There's always people, places and things that made them into the person they are that could pull off this 10th or 8th or 12th book or a film or whatever, you know. And so if I ask you to go back and sort of share, and I've read your, I've read your memoir so Gorgeous, and I'll ask a couple of questions for that maybe, but go back as far as you'd like to. Who are the people, places and things that made you into the kind of person that 20 years ago started with the first book, stuck with it, and here we are all these years later, still benefiting from your work?
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B
Yeah, it's. It's funny to think about, especially if you're the only writer or even the only sort of like, artist of any kind in your family. Like, where does that exactly come from? Because Obviously I have two younger sisters, we grew up 25 minutes from where I live now in a suburb of Columbus, Ohio. I had a very sort of like free range, Gen X Goonies childhood. Like, you know, playing outside in the creek in the backyard and going to the public library and checking out books and riding bikes with, you know, we didn't have cell phones. We were just gone all day and came home for meals. I mean, it was a very, yeah, a very, you know, Goonies hold the pirate treasure kind of childhood upbringing. Yeah, right. And so, but like, I'm the only one in our family who, who, who does something creative for a living or maybe even for a hobby. My youngest sister plays music, but I don't really know like, what the sort of alchemy is or what the recipe is for what makes one kid out of a family become somebody who likes to make things. I think I was really into books and music as a young person, still am very into both. And so I know that reading books and listening to music and being obsessive about transcribing lyrics to songs was certainly part of what helped me think about my own ability to crystallize human experience into language in a way that's not like narrative storytelling, but more imagistic. That definitely came from listening to, you know, my parents record collection and, and starting my own and then playing, like, probably playing outside in the backyard in the creek all Day and looking for little things. Definitely trained my eye to notice the small things and to enjoy being on my own and having a kind of rich, interior life. And then the rest of it is sort of a mystery, isn't it? Like, how we. How we become the people that we become later? I wouldn't have predicted it, that's for sure.
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A
Were there any. Okay, so not from your family and. And, you know, you're from your. You've always lived in Ohio, correct? Or for most of it, yeah. So, you know, were there any other creative sort of endeavors or any influences or, you know, because, you know, I kind of identify with this, actually, because, like, my dad is Guatemalan. I grew up in Guatemala. We grew up in the middle of a war. Like, um. Then we came back to, like, there's some creativity in my family. I. In fact, I have one brother who's very creative musically. Like, he can pick up any instrument and play. And so there is some creativity. But. But, like, where did my shit come from? Like, where I'm, like, pitching TV shows and doing a podcast and moved to the big city, and they're all in small. They live in North Carolina, like, in pretty small towns. And, you know, they're. They're great, great people, but they just, you know, they work nine to fives and they start businesses and they, like, you know, employ people, and it's. It's so good.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But. But they look at me so oddly, no one in, you know, maybe a couple in my family. I'm one of 12 kids, so there's a lot. But, like, maybe only a couple people in my family can really articulate, like, what the hell I even do. You know, everybody else is like, oh, yeah, he, you know, travels and writes emails and, you know, has this podcast thing.
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B
That's a lot of it.
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A
Yeah. I mean, it really is.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Inbox to zero is quite the task. But. Yeah, so they don't understand it. And I don't really know where, you know, both my parents are, you know, still. They just. They work. They work and they're hard workers and they're good people, but they don't. Yeah. Creativity and sort of this sort of ambition where it's like, hey, move to New York even though you can't afford it with your three kids and your partner and, like, try to make stuff and, you know, do stuff. Like, I don't really know where that's from. So I guess I identify with that a little bit. Yeah. That, you know, you might not have had those influences, and yet you really Grabbed onto it, and now have made a pretty damn good career out of it.
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B
Well, yeah, thank you. And. And it is sort of. I think we all kind of are like, how did this happen? I mean, I know my family feels that way. Like, of all the kids, I was the shyest, I was the most introverted. I mean, but on the other hand, when my sisters were playing sports, I was sort of incubating in my bedroom, listening to the Cure on cassette and, and reading books and writing and, you know, I mean, very uncooly doing jigsaw puzzles that I would, like, slide out from a folded up, you know, card table from underneath my bed and then slide it back under. So I spent a lot of time alone. A lot of time alone by choice. A lot of time alone because I was grounded for sassing, etc and being a kind of mouthy child. So I spent a lot of time alone in my room. And I joke now, but I think there's something to it that, like, kids who spend a lot of time alone, not on video games, but with their own minds, build really rich interior lives that then might kind of surface later as some kind of creative endeavor.
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A
That's. So I. I feel like we are pretty similar, and I know that we're tindered spirits. Well, you know, yeah, growing up, like, I would, you know, I grew up. I'm a. I'm on the tail end of Millennial. So, like, we didn't have. I didn't have cell phones. Like, cell phones weren't a thing until I was a teenager. And so growing up, like most of my siblings would, you know, we. We had maybe. Maybe the. Not latest, but the second to latest generation of whatever, you know, video game console there was, and they'd be playing that, they'd be watching. Like, they. They were always doing sort of the normal stuff that you would think kids would do. And I was reading, you know, one or two books a day. Like, I was in my. I was in my bedroom, you know, I was. I. I didn't even know what I was doing, but I was, like, writing songs and they were probably really shitty, but, like, I was writing, I was like, let me write a song. Let me write this thing. Let me read books. So my brain was always in some other someone else's world, you know, thinking about that. And so, yeah, maybe there are some connections to, like, yeah, something grew inside of me that was. I mean, most of my siblings, even though we grew up in Guatemala, like, they sort of stopped traveling when we moved back to the States, like, they. And I've been to like 40 something countries. Like, I never stopped traveling. I just kept going. So, yeah, maybe it's just, maybe it's Jenna. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but, like, something in you and me, like, we just sort of strayed and became black sheep, as it were, and did things differently than our families. And God love them. Yeah, that's what they're doing is great. It's fine.
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B
But, oh, yeah, it's wonderful. I mean, sometimes I'm like, yeah, it would probably make a lot more sense for my life to look more like my siblings or my parents or my cousins.
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A
Yeah. Maybe some more stability. Maybe some more.
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B
This is not a stable life. Like, you basically bet on yourself and then double down and double down and double down and, you know, work hard. But it's a lot of luck, too, and a lot of uncertainty. And it's odd, I think, for all of us that I'm the person who feels like they can tolerate that, but for some reason I am.
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A
Yeah. There you go. Okay, thanks for sharing some of that context. A couple things from your memoir that I want to ask about that hopefully won't keep us talking about these things too long, but I just, they popped out and I was like, I've got to ask.
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B
Yeah.
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A
In your memoir, you talked about when you moved in with your ex husband and you ident. You called it living in sin.
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B
Oh, yeah. So I was quoting my mother.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you quoted your mother as living in sin. So does that mean that there was a religious component in your home? Was that part of growing up or. No?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I was raised Methodist, although I stopped going when I was 14. So I guess I was always a little bit of a do your own thing kind of person because I just opted out at a certain age and was pretty vocal about that. So. But as a kid, yeah, I absolutely, I absolutely did church and Sunday school at bell choir and the whole kit.
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A
And caboodle in 14. Was that the last time you never looked back or never went back? Okay, great, great. Love that. I mean, I, I, my story is different. I grew up a Baptist kid and very conservative Christian and.
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B
Oh, I know, I know.
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A
I'm no longer, I'm no longer even in the same universe as that. I still identify as a Christian, but it's like, it's like as far left as you could go. Like, yeah, I'm super leftist, super socialist, but still, you know, for some reason, some of my siblings have left the faith and some are still in it. Some are way still in it. Like, like voting for Trump, sort of, you know, Christian still somehow. I like tried to leave it. Literally, I've tried to leave it so many times when, when those in my faith tradition disappoint the hell out of me. I'm like, I don't want to, I don't want to be near you. But I just had to, like, I just had to come to terms with no matter what group I'm part of. You know, there's some, there's some fucked up people.
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B
Yeah.
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A
In every.
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B
With writers. Like, I'm like, well, I'm not gonna not write because there are some bad writers. I'm not gonna. Not some really bad ones. Yeah, yeah, right. Like there are, there are questions. Questionable people in any, in any large group. And, and so how do we, how do we form community and, and sort of stay true to ourselves and kind of take what works for us and leave the rest?
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A
Yeah.
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B
A la carte.
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A
A la carte. Yeah. Well, that, that was one of the freedoms that sort of deconstructing and reconstructing as people in the faith world call it was like I, when I, when I reconstructed, when I left all of the old terrible stuff behind and I reconstructed, I was like, I get to keep what I want. I don't, I don't have to believe that God sends people to, to an actual literal hell. Right. Where they burn forever. That's ridiculous. That's horrific. Like, I don't have to believe that anymore. I can believe these things. Take the good, you know, use those things to help to sort of inform how I raise, you know, how we raise our children. Just leave all the terrible, toxic stuff behind. But I also appreciate and completely understand when people leave it and never look back.
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B
I'm done. Thank you.
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A
Yes, 100%. Also, in your memoir, you, when you were talking about, you sort of talk about what a memoir is and you talked about it as a ghost tour. I'm confronting what haunts me. Talk about that for a second if you can. Like how. Not just in the memoir sort of sense, but like as you write, like is that is all of your writing come out of confronting what haunts you?
- [23:34]
B
Yeah. I mean, maybe writing is a ghost tour. I mean, if you think about it, I use that metaphor because I lived in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania for a year after grad school and taught at the college there. And so you would see people with these like old timey costumes and lanterns leading people around Gettysburg, Pennsylvania on these ghost tours. And it just, I mean, it just made me think about memory in general and how memory. A memory is kind of a haunting. Like a. A good memory is like a friendly ghost, right, that kind of lives with you and helps sort of transport you back to other times and maybe even other versions of yourself that you were in the past. And, I mean, when you lose someone you love, you kind of carry them with you. And it's the good kind of haunting, that memory. And then there's the bad haunting, right. Like the conjuring film kind of haunting. And frankly, bad memories can feel a lot like that. Like, they can feel a lot like you're being terrorized by your own memory. And so part of. Part of writing the memoir, for sure, but really writing anything that feels kind of personal or like it's pulling from that, that. Well, you know, that space is. You're like learning to live with your ghosts. And so writing for me, even about painful, kind of difficult things, even those kind of negative hauntings, the writing as an act is still positive because you're finding a way through that imaginative cognitive work, a way to metabolize it differently and a way to sort of live alongside your ghosts. Like, I think of the movie the Babadook. I don't know if you've seen the Babadook.
- [25:18]
A
I haven't, no.
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B
Oh, highly recommend. Although it's horrifying. I mean, I, I. My daughter loves horror, and I will let her watch anything like she's seen the Shining, but I. Not the Babadook yet, because it's just. To me, it's so horrifying and. But there, it's. There's this sort of creature that I believe, and I don't want to spoil too much because I want you to watch it, but in my mind, this. This creature as a metaphor for grief. And it either terrorizes us in our home or we find a way to live with it. And my goal is, I know I can't get rid of anything that's happened in my life. I don't get to sort of eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind erase any of this from the drive that is my brain, but I can learn to live with it differently. And writing helps me do that.
- [26:07]
A
That's. That's incredible. And I will watch the Babadook very soon.
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B
But don't. Don't blame me if you sleep well.
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A
That's. I'll be fine. I'll just. I'll just watch it high. That's what I'll do.
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B
Great. Or that will really mess you up.
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A
No, no, that. That that makes, it'll, it'll make it make it funnier, it'll make it, it'll make it a little more pleasant for me. Okay, so we're in this, we're inching closer to talking about the book. It's so, so good. I'm still going through it. It's really, really helpful. Let's talk a bit about this day, this, this time that we're in where. And here's what I mean by that. I feel like artists are creating, artists are. There are too many artists that are creating content instead of making art. I think there's a difference there. And, and because content, right, when you think about content, it's, it's always trying to best the algorithm. It's always trying to figure out how to. And I get it totally, like as someone who lives in the artist world and in the whatever, you know, a lot of other worlds, like, I get it like we have to rely on these billionaires that have created these algorithms that completely work against us because we need paychecks, right? We need to, we need to make money, we need to make sure our stuff moves and we need to make sure our stuff spreads. And so I get it, like I'm, instead of thinking about like, how can I create something that is like truly me? And regardless of what other people think and regardless of how, how much it, how viral or not viral, it grows, how much it sells, but it's easy to get sort of trapped in this like content versus making art sort of space. Do you, how do you think through that? How do you deal with that as someone again, who's like, just because you've been doing it 20 years doesn't. I don't even think for a moment that it's easier or that you've got it made or that like, you don't have to, like, it just comes so naturally now. Like you still have to make this thing work each and every day. And I think it's going to increasingly so going to happen with AI and all that. And so how do we, in a day and age when we need more art than ever? Like, art literally is. All the activists need art. All of the everyday Joes and Sally's that are trying to be good people, they need art. The politicians that are, the few politicians that are actually good people, they need art. Like the, the business leaders that are actually good people, they need art. Like all the people that are moving everything along, they rely on art to like sustain them. That hasn't changed. In fact, that's the need has increased, but. And yet the algorithm and our need to sort of live in this capitalist hellscape continues to say, make content, make content, make content. So how do you process through what I just shared?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I think this might be a case in which, maybe to my detriment, being a very solidly Gen X and stubborn middle aged woman is helpful to me. Because if someone's like, well, you probably would do a lot better if you got onto TikTok, or you probably would. Would do better if you posted more reels or you would probably have more views if you did, if you posted more often. Or you would probably do this if you, like, wrote more like this. You know, sometimes I do hear things like that. Luckily, I mostly try to surround myself with people who know better than to say things like that to me.
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A
Right.
- [29:35]
B
Because the answer is just no, which is, I think readers. And I mean, I'm always making things for readers. I'm not making things for necessarily, like consumers. So I don't, I don't think of like, the word content really bothers me. Even the word productivity bothers me because the word product is inside of it. I think when we talk about this stuff, it's. It's like, you can't. We're talking about capitalism, we're not talking about art. We're talking about this weird Venn diagram overlap in the center, which is like, not a place I want to live if I can avoid it. And the other thing I would say is I'm not at all precious about this. I do make a living by writing, so I'm not so silly to be like, well, it doesn't matter. I can do whatever I want and people will buy it. I know that's not true. So instead of doing things that don't feel aligned with me or making professional choices that feel inauthentic to me, what I have chosen to do is believe that my reader is as savvy and as intelligent and probably more so of both than I am, and would absolutely see through that kind of bullshit and would want and would frankly, like, leave me if I started doing things that felt pushy or inauthentic. And so what I can do for my art, I think, is the same thing I can do for my reader, which is make things more or less for myself first. And then if I like them enough and I trust them enough and I feel like they have enough value, say, hey, do you want to see this? And share it as a, as like a gesture of like, so. So this is community Right. Not, hey, here are five things that I just made without considering myself or you or our relationship at all. And would you like to buy all of them?
- [31:42]
A
Right.
- [31:43]
B
You know what I'm saying? I just think it's like, for the same reason that people will come to me and say, I'm trying to get an agent, and they say, I need a platform, or they say I need to have so many social media followers before I can sell something. Or. Or maybe no one's told them that. They just believe that they need to have a certain level of platform. Another word I hate. I prefer readership or even audience to platform. Right. And so when people come to me and say things like that, like, how do I build a platform? How do I. And I'm like, well, maybe you should think, how do I build community? How do I find more readers? Like, stop thinking about other people as the people who are. That you're trying to sort of manipulate into keeping you afloat. Because that's kind of what you're doing. If you're asking about platform. Instead, it's like, what can you make that would be of value to them?
- [32:39]
A
Yes.
- [32:40]
B
What could you make that might make them their day a little better or their hour a little better or might help them articulate something to themselves that they've had. They've been thinking but have had a hard time articulating because they're just like you, you know, like, how do you want to be approached in the quote unquote marketplace? Not like you're at a used car dealership. And I think so much of the way we talk about social media and algorithms and content and all of this, it makes the whole space feel really cheap and not like just a bunch of human beings coming together in the ether because we can't all be together in the same room.
- [33:18]
A
Yep.
- [33:18]
B
And, like, how can we make that environment more and not less hospitable?
- [33:25]
A
That's so good. There's. I mean, we could spend an hour on that alone. We won't.
- [33:29]
B
I know. I'm a long talker. I should have warned you.
- [33:32]
A
Well, maybe we'll do, like, round two on part two. I love this part two. But. But I do think one thing that you have is you have longevity in this game that I think is really helpful. So, like, 20 years doing it. Like, the younger sort of creatives that are making, like, really powerful shit, like, they're making really good art, whatever. What. Whether it's music or fine art or poetry or films, they're making really good stuff. But one Thing the younger generation has very little of is patience, right? They don't want to put in the 20 years.
- [34:10]
B
They.
- [34:11]
A
To get to the point where, you know, this is how many books I've written. This. These are. This is how many films I've made. They want. They want to. They want their first film or their first book or their first poem or their first painting to go viral, and. And then they can. And then they can build the huge platform. And again, I don't necessarily. Like, I was listening to an interview with Maya Hawk. I don't remember when the interview took place, but I heard it a few weeks ago with her talking about, like, she. She was wanting to work with someone on a film, and. And the director was like, well, they don't have a big enough platform. And she's like, but they're a really fucking good actor. Like, yeah, it shouldn't matter if they have 2 million followers or not. This is the right person for the film. And it was such a frustrating experience. And I think we're all those of us that are two feet into the artist world or one foot in. Like, me. Like, it's just very frustrating because I want to. I'm sort of a. I like to think of myself as a very principled person. I don't want to do anything for that. I don't really want to be doing. And yet I moved my. I moved my family to, you know, Manhattan, arguably the most expensive city on the planet, with three kids and my partner. And we're trying to, like, we're trying to make it. Like, we're just trying to survive, right? And. And capitalism says, well, if you want to survive, make content, you know, and I think we need to, like, I. I want to find ways for myself and for those in. Let's give a damn community who are a lot of activists, a lot of volunteers, a lot of everyday people doing one good thing a day to try to make the world, you know, move forward. Like, it's all. And then there's, like, big nonprofit leaders listening and all kinds of business leaders. Like, it's a whole smorgasbord of people. And I think we all have. We all cross paths with art at some point, whether. Whether as a. As an audience. I almost said consumer. My God, I know.
- [35:59]
B
It's so hard. I say. I say, like, well, people who consume art. And I'm like, I don't like that. Like I said, then I'm like, okay, what about engage with. I like that better.
- [36:06]
A
I mean, words matter. It's.
- [36:08]
B
It's Yeah.
- [36:08]
A
I automatically think of somebody differently if I say these are amazing folks that engage with my art versus consume my art.
- [36:17]
B
Yeah, these are customers.
- [36:18]
A
I consumed my lunch an hour ago. I'm not going to consume. Know later on when I turn on, you know, an amazing film or some music, like, I'm not going to consume it. It's literally going to be. It's literally going to be sustaining my, you know, my very existence. That's super helpful. The next thing, it might even be a similar answer. But let's spend three minutes here and then we'll spend the last section on the book.
- [36:45]
B
Sure.
- [36:45]
A
You know, like, I know we just, again, we just touched on some of this, but, like, how do you, how do you process through? How do you take care of yourself and get ready to create art in the midst of this absolute shit show? You know, we opened up by you saying, I'm doing good in a bad world. Right. Like, everything feels so fucking heavy. I mean, just yesterday, yesterday I spent from morning till night, I literally was in tears, knots on my stomach. Two more journalists murdered in Gaza. Deadliest week on record for Palestinian children. Pete Heg says sharing top secret war plans on signal. Like a text.
- [37:24]
B
At least we can laugh about that one. But yeah.
- [37:26]
A
Yes, yes. Yeah. Our climate more disastrous than ever. Trump and Elon Musk firing and then rehiring tens of thousands of employees. Russia, Ukraine. I could go on, like, every day feels so how do we not like, you know, some days just feel like I need to blow my brains out. Whatever's next has to be better than this. This is wild. So how do you. With all this going on.
- [37:50]
B
Yeah, make things.
- [37:51]
A
Yeah, make things. How do you just live? Well, live. But that's the thing is, like, you know, I feel like that's an easier answer because it's like, well, I have to, you know, but like, how do you live and then, yeah, create the stuff that, you know. You know, we don't. We won't even spend any time on Good bones because everybody knows about Good Bones. But like, you writing stuff, like, it's not just living, but then writing stuff and making stuff that is literally going to help people. It's going to help them get through their next day and week and month and year. So how do you know? How do you do that?
- [38:21]
B
I think part of it, I mean, living is hard right now. Yeah. I said I'm having a good day in a bad world. And I honestly, I think that's the best we can hope for at this point. Like, just to Have a good day or a good couple of hours in a world that feels increasingly bad. What I would say about that, maybe two things. One, all times are bad. So like, these times feel particularly bad and weirdly bad and like jump the shark bad. And like the memes are terrific, though. Like, we're getting. We're getting such quality memes. Top notch chef's kiss memes right now. But, you know, 10 years ago was bad. 20 years ago was bad. 200 years ago was bad. A thousand years was bad. You know, and. And I think about that. I'm like, every time is bad for someone, and if the time there have. You know, I've lived 48 years on this planet, and if there are years that have not been hard for me, they have been hard for someone else living on planet Earth. And so anytime I'm not having. I don't feel like the world is terrible. It's not because it's not. It's because of some modicum of insulation or privilege around me in particular at that moment, that I'm living a different reality than someone else. And so it helps me to think about that so that I don't get overwhelmed and think like, these are like the worst times ever. And how can we be creating art in these times? All times are beautiful, all times are terrible. And we endure through all of it. We predated this weird, terrible, and we will outlast it. I have no doubt in my mind about that. And that kind of, again, like long game endurance is part of what I need to make things. And then the other thing I would say is that writing is how I feel most like myself. So if I'm feeling a little either because of the news cycle or my own or my inbox or parenting and having to be 50 different places at the same time and not being able to clone myself, if I'm feeling kind of self estranged, you know, like the. The me's of me are not quite flush and I'm. I'm just kind of out of it. The best thing I can do for myself is do what makes me feel most like me. It's like coming home to myself. And that is writing. And so for some people, it might be running or meditation or going to a baseball game or cooking or. I mean, I don't believe in guilty pleasures. I think whatever we do that makes us feel like ourselves and makes us feel grounded, those are all valid choices. I don't if it's Mario Kart. So choosing in a day when the news cycle feels like a Dog shot collar that won't stop going off. Choosing to put my phone away for two hours or brick it, or shut my laptop and go sit someplace and write or read or listen to music or take a walk or something. The way that we take care of ourselves as makers of things is by taking care of ourselves as whole people. That's just what I believe. And if I take care of myself as a whole person, meaning some days I just want to go out to lunch. I don't want to sit in front of my computer and write. That's okay. Because that's how I'm taking care of myself and the writer in me.
- [41:47]
A
Well, thanks for this again, so much to deal with there. But one thing I want to point out before we get to the book is, you know, you just gave permission once again. I've done it in various ways. I forget because I am a. I am so. It's so hard for me to come out of thinking about everything going on and then what, what ends up happening though is I just get like. I get burnt out and then I'm useless for a little while. Right. So I like, go, go, go. Overload. Yeah. I go so hard and then I'm literally, I mean, from. From head to toe, completely up. And then I just like collapse for a day or two and then I come back and it's like, how about, how about you know, schedule these things in, you know, shutting off the things and, you know, and so giving people permission to, you know, a lot of the dms, a lot of the interactions I have with people on, you know, that are part of this community, it's how, how can I have fun knowing what's happening over there to them, to trans people, to like. Yes, just name your issue. How can I. How can I possibly have fun while they're suffering? And you just put it so well that, like, we. We're going to. We need those things. Whether it's a baseball game or going for a walk or, you know, for me right now, our current thing is like smoke hookah and watch Blacklist. I know. That's like, whatever works for you, right? It's so pointless. But it's like I need that on occasion.
- [43:12]
B
Yeah.
- [43:12]
A
To like, I need that. I need to be able to check out and not think about. Yeah. Everything else for a season.
- [43:21]
B
Our nervous systems are not sort of evolutionarily prepared for the amount of on ness that the life that we're living now requires of us. I also have a banner hanging in my front window so that when people come up to my house, they see it and it's a quote from the poet Toy Derricote. And it says, joy is an act of resistance. Yes, I absolutely believe that. Like, I, I don't want to live in a world where everyone is sort of grayed out and keeping their eyes down and not living with some sense of what's still possible for us.
- [44:02]
A
Yes. Love that We've quoted that quote many times and thank you for bringing it to us again today. Okay. Your book. I'm still reading it. Wow, wow, wow. I'm not joking when I say this. So when Rick Rubin's book the Creative Act.
- [44:17]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [44:18]
A
Came out a couple of years ago, it became like, it became like a creative bible for me. You know, you just kind of open it up from wherever and literally wherever you open it up, you're going to find some nugget on there. I feel that way reading your book as well, that, you know, the way that it's sectioned out, the way that you built it now, maybe you don't want people to bounce around or whatever and we'll get into that, but, like.
- [44:41]
B
That'S up to you.
- [44:42]
A
But I, I have found as I've been reading it, I'm like, okay, this is really. This is really laid out in a way that I could open. And I have tried it several times. Literally walked with my desk, open it up, and I find something that's like really helpful in that section. What is your goal with this beautiful book? Do you mind that we're bouncing around and yetis tell me about what you're hoping to see happen. Again, not I. It is for writers. But I am finding that as an aspiring writer, but as someone who is a. I'd like to believe a good person that's like trying to do my best. There's stuff in here for non writers, I think.
- [45:24]
B
Yes.
- [45:25]
A
Like a lot of the wisdom is for not. It's for people. If you're human and you want to be good and do good and you have some sort of creative. Like this is for you as well. So. Yeah. Tell us about the book.
- [45:35]
B
Well, I'm glad that's your experience of it. I mean, that's, that's really my goal for it was. Okay. So there are going to be some practical tools here for people who are writing or who want to write or want to dip their toe in or have been doing it for years. And there's going to be some encouragement because I think we all need someone who, you know, during that last bit of the marathon, we need the people to come out from the sidelines and, like, help carry us over the finish line sometimes when we are doing projects. But really, any question that I get about writing from a student or during a Q and A after a book event or something is also a question about life. You know, it's like, when, when, when. When people ask, like, how do you know when something. How do you know when you're done with something? Or how do you get the courage to share when you're scared to tell a story? Or where do you get your ideas? Or how do you begin? Or how do you. How do you change something for the better without fucking it up and making it worse? All of these questions are applicable to writing or really making any art of any kind, but they're also just applicable to life. Like, how do we move through the world doing as, like, little harm as possible to ourselves and others, making and doing as much good as possible for ourselves and others, and like, staying engaged and having a good time in the process. So I don't mind at all that you're skipping around. I actually love that. I mean, especially as a poet. I arrange a book of poems in a specific order that appeals to me, but I don't read that way. When I pick up a book of poems, I so often, just, wherever it falls open, I can, like, read that poem and maybe I read a couple more if I really like it, and then I can put it down and I can just dip back in at any time because it's not linear. And I think with this book, the 10 sections live independently of one another. And I could have put them in a different order. You know, this is just the one that felt intuitively right to me. But my hope is. Honestly, my hope for this book is that people have a hard time getting through it because they read a little bit and then get an idea of their own that they want to apply in some way, whether it's in business or, you know, in a sort of artistic endeavor, whatever the thing is, or conversation they want to have, or they want to screenshot something and have a conversation with a friend. My hope is that they have to stop and start many times whether they read it in order or not.
- [47:59]
A
Love that. It's also really cool what you just said about, like, the same thing goes with your poetry books that, you know, there you write it in that order, but you don't always. You. You jump in at different places. I was just thinking about that this past week. Do you know the poet Father Judah?
- [48:16]
B
Yes. He's I mean, not personally, but yes, of course.
- [48:19]
A
He's a friend of mine, and I was with him in Detroit a couple of weeks ago for an event, and his new. His. His latest book, which I think is. Came out last year. Yeah, The. The final poem, which is like eight or nine minutes long. It's called Dedication. Like, I never opened his book without first going to that one, so I always read that one first, even though it's the longest. I know it's. I mean, I'm in it for eight or nine minutes, and then I start bouncing around. And so I love that we didn't even get a chance to really dive into my love for poetry and obviously yours, but it's really the. In my mind, you can name all of your. Your favorite artistic, you know, art forms. And for me, like, poetry is the one that is, like, the thread that weaves them all together. Like, poetry is so special. Like, I love. I can name all of them, and I'm like, yeah, but poetry is first and in between the second, the third, and in between the third and the fourth, and between the fourth and the fifth. Because poetry is just. It hits in such a unique way.
- [49:14]
B
Yeah.
- [49:15]
A
Okay. I hope you meet father sometimes. I'll make the connection.
- [49:19]
B
I do, too. I'm such a. I'm such a fan of his work.
- [49:22]
A
He's so incredible. He's such a precious, precious human. Okay, last question on this book, and we got to wrap up here. I want to be respectful of. Of your time. What, like, why this book now? Because you've written books of poetry. You wrote your memoir, which is really great. And then there's this book which is, like, more. It's not self help, but it's more in the. Like, here. You know, here's a bunch of, like, short chapters, and they're digestible, and they're. And it's big, like, life stuff and how to write. And so why. I haven't read all your books? So maybe you've written something similar. Is. But, like, why. Why this book now?
- [49:55]
B
Yeah, this is a. I mean, this is a totally new project for me. I think. I love craft books. Like, I. I have so many craft books in the room I'm sitting in now that I've been reading since I was a baby poet and, like, learning how to do things from books myself. There are the books I go back to again and again as a writer, just because I think if you. If you read a craft book at 20 and then you read that same book again at 50, you're a different person, so you're gleaning something different from that text. So I'm still dipping into the books that, That I teach from and recommend. You know, even now, you never get. You never get past the point where you're like a perpetual student. I just, I'll be a student forever no matter how many years I teach. But, yeah, I think, honestly, I. I had to. I had to get a couple decades under my belt before I felt like I had enough. Or maybe I. Before I felt like I could indulge myself by feeling like I had enough to say to fill a book. You know, These are the conversations I've had with friends at writers conferences, over drinks. These are the kinds of conversations I'll have with booksellers if I'm in an independent bookstore or with students or at Q&As after, after readings or the kinds of things I put on my sub stack. And so I. None of it's ever lived in one place, though. So it's like, yeah, I published some essays on writing, and I have a bunch of stuff in my substack. And I've had all these conversations, and some of this lives in my head, and some of them are craft talks I've given or I've taught these classes, but it's not like the syllabus or my lecture notes live on the Internet. So if you weren't in the room, you don't get the info. And so now I was like, well, what if I just did kind of a greatest hits compilation of of sort of all the best advice I've gotten about writing from my mentors and how I've used that in my own. In my own work and then try to pass on to readers as much as I can in one little package. So maybe, like, they're not going to go get an mfa. Maybe, maybe that's not in the cards. Maybe they have a day job. Maybe, you know, maybe their path is not a traditional path. But there's a lot in Dear Writer, I think that will kickstart things for people, and that's my hope.
- [52:14]
A
Incredible. Maggie. When I. I've interviewed lots and lots of folks, some very, very, very famous people. It's been such a joyful, like, process with this podcast. But when I told people, when I told some folks that I was interviewing you, it was just oohs and aahs. It was, oh, my God, Tell. Tell her we love her and her. We love her poetry and we. We read it all the time. And so you're, you know, even in my community, you are touching so many lives, and you're helping so many people. So thank you so much. And I hope that for those listening. Yeah, no, no, I'm not making that up. Like, it really is. Really. And I hope that a lot of the folks coming to this podcast to hear you talk about Dear Writer, also go check out your other books. You. You can make this place beautiful. Your memoir is so good, friends, go. Go read it. And yeah, I hope that this is not the last time we interact or do a podcast. I really enjoyed this. This has been a joy. Thank you for joining us today.
- [53:07]
B
No, thank you. This has been fun. I can't wait to hear how you like the Babadook.