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- [00:00]
A
What's up Dam Givers? Welcome to the let's Give a Damn Podcast, a show where I get to have conversations with incredible people who aim to leave the planet much better than they found it. I'm your host Nick lapara and I'm so glad you're here. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by fans and friends of let's Give a Damn. In case you didn't know, we are on Patreon and for just a few dollars a month you can help us make the podcast week after week after week. Creating and producing a podcast, especially as a self employed one man show, is not easy and it's not cheap. So if you learned from the show, if you love the show, consider joining our Patreon. Visit patreon.com let's give a Damn to learn more. Or you can just Google Patreon and let's Give a Damn and our page will pop right up. Hit me up at hello at let's give a damn.com if you have any questions. Hey at all. Another way you can support this work is by purchasing some of our merch. The most popular item, and the one I get stopped every single day on the street about is our trucker hat. If you're watching on YouTube, you see it right now. If you follow me on socials, I'm wearing it in basically every post that I'm in. When you buy a hat or a hoodie or a T shirt, remember that all the items in our store have shipping and tax included in the price already. Visit let's giveadam.com store to support us today. Buckle up damn givers. This week's conversation is fantastic. My guest this week is the inimitable Taylor Lorenz. Taylor is a technology journalist in Los Angeles, California and the author of the book Extremely the Untold Story of Fame, Influence, and Power on the Internet. She has written for the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Atlantic, the Daily Beast, and many other publications. Taylor is the sweetest and coolest human, but she isn't liked by everyone. Elon Musk has gone after her. Joe Rogan has gone after her. She gets so much hate from white supremacists, Trump supporters, and Zionists. And recently the Quill and Musket, an absolutely stupid substack publication, shared a post titled Taylor Lorenz is the Face of of Evil. I wanted to have Taylor on the show to talk about the current state of independent journalism. Why she constantly puts herself in the crosshairs of willfully ignorant idiots on purpose or not. On Purpose, the genocide in Gaza, Long Covid, and so much more. This conversation was a long time coming and I really, really, really enjoyed it. I know you will as well. Before we begin, and a quick reminder, as always, that you can email me anytime and for any reason at. Hello, let's Give a Damn dot com. You can ask questions, recommend future guests. Tell me how much you love or hate the show. Anything goes. I just love hearing from you. And don't forget, if you prefer to watch your podcasts instead of listen to them, we're on YouTube as well. And now let's get right into my conversation with an absolutely terrific journalist and human, Taylor Lorenz. Let's go. Welcome to the let's Give a Damn podcast. Taylor Lorenz, how are you?
- [03:24]
B
Good. Thanks for having me.
- [03:26]
A
I'm so excited for this. For those that don't know, I'm going to begin by sharing a few descriptors of who you are. You're a journalist, a professional interneter, the founder of User Mag, the author of Extremely Online and the Face of Evil. Do I have that right?
- [03:42]
B
That article made me laugh so hard.
- [03:44]
A
Oh, my God, you shared that. And I went straight away, of course, to like, read the whole thing and holy fuck. Like, so for those that don't know, this loser substack called the Quillin Musket shared a post the other day within the past couple days titled, taylor Lorenz is the Face of Evil. And I just have to begin because this, this sort of like, your life is so crazy and your work is so all over the place. Right. And so this, this paragraph just felt so in like, an appropriate way to sort of begin, it was the conclusion which you obviously already read. Quote, taylor Lorenz is not merely a person who said something outrageous. She is the logical conclusion of a culture that has untethered rights from responsibility, freedom from ethics and, and convenience from conscience. When abortion becomes not a tragedy, but a trophy, we are no longer on the edge of the abyss. We are cartwheeling into it. This is not about a woman or a building or a tweet. It is about who we are becoming. The face of evil is not always monstrous. Sometimes it smiles, sometimes it jokes, sometimes it calls something great that should have left her sleepless for life.
- [04:54]
B
Wait, can I tell you what I tweeted that they, like, crashed out over and like, they were all, like, all the right wingers were crashing out. So Planned Parenthood is closing their Bleecker street location. Like their soho location.
- [05:04]
A
Yeah.
- [05:04]
B
Which was this iconic location and which I had an abortion at When I was like, 19 and I, like, quote, tweeted it and I was like, oh, end of an era. I had so many great abortions there, like, joking, obviously. And they were like, how dare you admit to slaughtering a child? And you don't even have regrets? And I was like, no, I don't have regrets about not derailing my entire life and, like, having, like, a child when I was, like, 19. I'm sorry. Also, like. Like, it's not that deep.
- [05:36]
A
No, it's. It's not at all that deep. And they took it so goddamn seriously. Like, I just. I laughed and chuckled. I mean, they just did a. They did a really great, horrible, but a great job sort of describing, you know, really taking all that you are and what you said to. To the nth degree, like, you can't take it any further than they did.
- [05:58]
B
No, but that's like I said. I said a similar thing about, like, when the healthcare executive was killed. And like, I was like, yeah, I'm like, sorry, I'm not mourning for this guy. Like, he was a murderer. He personally signed off on an AI system that was denying 90% of claims and killed God knows how many innocent people. And, yeah, there was like three weeks of even the mainstream media just. But it's so much projection. It's so much projection. It's like, okay, this woman made, like, a mildly silly joke about the topic, and I'm going to now project like crazy.
- [06:30]
A
It's. It's really insane. So, you know, it's an honor to have the Face of Evil on the podcast today. That might. Might be the first time ever in 270 episodes. I don't know if you remember this, but our first interaction was seven years ago. I was just thinking about this, and just as I was preparing some notes, December of 2017 17. You tweeted something about Jake Paul. I responded with something completely true about how awful he is. It might have been. I don't remember actually what it was. It might have been a little mean, but it was true. And he responded, you know, because you just never think that, yeah, you know, somebody like that's going to respond. He says, his response was, your bio says, how may I help you? Shut the fuck up and keep being irrelevant. Love you, Tay Tay. With a heart emoji on the end. That was the tweet.
- [07:17]
B
I don't think he loves me so much after I wrote about his sexual assault allegations.
- [07:20]
A
Yeah, I don't. I wouldn't assume so. That was, you know, that was a different era that Was, you know, whatever that was seven, eight years ago. But you were so kind. So that was our first interaction. You DM me and you were like, I'm so sorry for any of the Twitter drama, and hopefully you're not getting too many haters. I did. Now I don't care about the haters. It really makes me chuckle more than anything. But literally, for almost a year after that, at first, it was. It was hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of response. I mean, like, I got a couple death threats in the DMs. Most were just like, you stupid motherfucker. Like, how. How dare you? But literally, almost a year later, I was still getting responses to that tweet where people were. They would just randomly say stuff. So anyway, you were so nice in the DMs.
- [08:05]
B
I always feel bad. Yeah, I always feel guilty, like, subjecting anyone to, like, my mentions on any platform because they're so cursed, and just always, like, anytime someone else gets roped in, I'm like, oh, God, I'm sorry.
- [08:19]
A
No, it's complete, completely fine. You know, and that was. I already knew a little bit about who you were, but that was after. That was really when I started sort of following your work. And I'm so glad that I did, because you've been such a helpful voice over the past few years, and we've been trying to get this. I think we initially connected about doing this when the book came out, which is now, what, a year and a half ago?
- [08:42]
B
Like, yeah, it was October 2023. I know it's bad. I'm so, like. I mean, as you can tell, I'm the most disorganized person alive, and I have, like, no coherent schedule. And I know it's a long time coming. I, I, that's crazy. I feel so old because I think everything before COVID feels like another.
- [08:58]
A
Oh, my God.
- [08:59]
B
So, like, every. And like, anyone I ever, like, followed with and engaged with, like, before COVID I'm like, oh, my God. Like, remember back in the day, like, when it was like, a different. Just such a different universe?
- [09:09]
A
5 years have never taken so long to get through. Like, I look at. I've. I have three kids with my partner, and they. They were babies before this, and now they're like, I have. I have a teenager and an almost teenager. Like, I don't understand how that's possible. So much has happened. We've. We've moved. We moved from Nashville to New York, and, like, so much has happened in those five years. It literally feels like another era. But I'M also glad. I'm, I'm glad it, you know, I'm glad it didn't happen back then. I'm glad it's happening now because I think there's some really interesting things happening that we'll get to discuss your work and otherwise. So before we go to those places, though, we have so much including how we sort of open this up in your work and sort of what it brings up in the world before we get there. I would love, I always like to begin the conversations with my guests sharing a bit of their story with us because regardless of what we're going to talk about in this case, your work as a journalist, as a writer, as the face of evil and otherwise, like, there's always, I want to know, I want to know how we got here, right? Who are the people, places and things that shaped you, made you who you are today? How did you get to this place? And so let's, you know, begin there. You're loved by many, hated by many. Joe Rogan knows who you are. Not many people can say that does. Elon, I was thinking about this as I, as I was thinking about that clip you posted about where Joe Rogan. Yeah. Does he let him know he dies?
- [10:37]
B
Absolutely. He. First of all, he, I've, he has responded to my emails when I email him for comment and I've covered him for years. And no, he personally banned me from X when I exposed that he had lied about like a stalking case. I mean, he's tweeted about me before. So yeah, he doesn't fuck with me.
- [10:55]
A
So. So people. Yeah. So loved by many, hated by many.
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B
And hated by many losers.
- [11:01]
A
Yes. Yes, yes. I mean, that's the reality of it is if people get to know you and your work, it's like, okay, if you hate Taylor, you're an asshole. You're probably somewhere in the vicinity of these sort of asshole realm.
- [11:12]
B
I have some maybe, probably legitimate haters for some dumb shit I've done. But yeah, most, it's mostly losers.
- [11:17]
A
We all do. So. Yeah. What's your story? When I say like people, places and things, like, what comes up for you? And then we'll get to your work here in a few minutes.
- [11:26]
B
Yeah, gosh, I was born in New York City. I'm a millennial. I, yeah, I lived in New York, I mean, most of my life until really recently. I moved to LA a couple years ago. I got into journalism through Tumblr. That's kind of like I didn't really grow up super online actually. I was really into art. And I thought I was going to be an artist. And I went to art school for a short time, and then I just kind of failed out of school, like a lot and wasn't good at school. Then I had a bunch of other weird jobs. I was a worker. I started working. I mean, I started working as like a babysitter at like 11. And then the minute I turned 13 and could, like, legally work, I was working. And.
- [12:08]
A
Wow.
- [12:09]
B
Yeah, I work. Like, work was like the only thing that I was, like, good at, I think, because I was so bad at school. And so I always had some retail job. I worked food service, you know, stuff like that. And then, yeah, I graduated. The recession. It was the big recession hit and I was doing. I was working at a call center, I was working retail on the weekends. I was doing deliveries, messenger shit. I was just attempt jobs pretty much. Yeah. And I got into Tumblr and then that in 2009, I feel so ancient now because I feel like I have to. I used to not have to qualify it, and now when I talk to young people, I'm like, so back in 2009, Tumblr was really.
- [12:49]
A
And they were like, kids at that point. And you're thinking, no, I was already well on my way. And they were like, children still.
- [12:54]
B
Yeah, if they were even alive. Like, some of them are like. Or they were like, you know, they were like five years old. But yeah, well, 2009. So that was when Tumblr, like, this was like, Twitter was really new. I didn't even have Twitter initially. Like, and Tumblr is where, like, all these, like, bloggers were going. And I had been. I was like. Started blogging on, like, blogspot a little bit. And then I was blogging on Tumblr and I. That kind of like, got me, like, media people started following me. Like, Internet people started following me. I realized I was good at basically making things that people would share. So that got me into my career in social media. And for most of my career, I was doing social media content strategy and stuff for brands, and I was writing on the side. And then at the end of 2017, I made the decision to. I remember I had a conversation with my friend who was a YouTuber, and I was like, should I go really hard into social media or should I try to work in journalism? Traditional journalism? Because I was working in journalism already, but I had my Snapchat show and stuff. And she was like, well, journalism's not going to be around for that much longer, so you should work at those places while you can. And it was so true. And so, yeah, I ended up working at the Atlantic and then the New York Times and the Washington Post. And then I don't know if you saw what happened in the Washington Post over the past year, but my editor left last June. And, yeah, it just seemed like I was like, all right, this place, I gotta get out. And. Yeah. And I just decided to do my own thing.
- [14:28]
A
Do your own thing? Yeah. And it seems like it's going well, and we'll get into that here. So let's go back a little bit. So, born and raised in New York. Which borough? I asked.
- [14:37]
B
Yeah, well, I was born in Manhattan, and then we lived there for a little while, and then my family moved to Connecticut. So I had a lot of my formative years in the beautiful suburbs of old Greenwich, Connecticut. And I just went to public school. Was a. I don't know, I was like, just like a normie kid. I was like. I mean, I was really into art. Like, I was really into art, and I made a lot of bad art, and I did, like, the art fair. And I worked a lot. Like, I worked at, like, every store in that town.
- [15:05]
A
What was it about your personality? So kids that, you know, sort of. Traditionally, maybe not, but when I think about kids that aren't doing well in school, they don't fill that void with work. They just, like, sit around. They just hang out, they do whatever. You know, that's my adhd. Okay, so. So you had to. You had to fill. You had to fill the void. You had to fill the space.
- [15:26]
B
Yeah, I have severe adhd, like, to the point that I'm like, I'm surprised to have a degree from anywhere, but, yeah, I was really bad in school. I. I mean, I was good at this. Some things that I cared about. But no, I. I just. I went to art camp and. And then I. Yeah, then I started my businesses. Like, I mean, I started a bunch of, like, little businesses, and I. I did, like, my. My mother's helper business. And then eventually I started my own vegan baking company for a while. And when I got to college and I was just very. I had a lot of business schemes.
- [16:02]
A
Love that.
- [16:03]
B
I'm glad I didn't have access to the Internet back then. Really. I mean, I was, like, on aim and stuff and geocities. But, like, I. I don't know. I look at kids now, and I have a lot of younger cousins, and, like, there's just, like. You could do, like, drop shipping. I just know that If I had grown up in this era with, like, my level of adhd, that I think I would have been running some, like, crypto scam or something.
- [16:22]
A
Yeah, very likely. Very. Because that's. A lot of them is like, they. They're just trying to fill the void with whatever seems to be working out there. And. And. And they're.
- [16:31]
B
And I needed money. I didn't have money.
- [16:33]
A
Yeah.
- [16:33]
B
Like, I mean, my parents had, like. I didn't grow up, like, poor or anything, but, like, you know, my parents didn't really give me, like, spending money. And so, like, you gotta go make it. Wanted money to buy stuff at the mall. To buy Abercrombie jeans.
- [16:44]
A
Yes. Oh, Abercrombie jeans. There you go. Okay. So you recently were on an episode of A Bit Fruity with Matt, who was also a guest on the show. Uh, he was on a couple years ago. One of my favorites that.
- [17:00]
B
Love him.
- [17:00]
A
Yeah. So such an incredible human. And that was a really special episode. But you mentioned, by the way, that recent episode about Gwen Stefani or Gwyneth Paltrow, as he. As.
- [17:13]
B
He kept calling her Gwyneth Paltrow.
- [17:17]
A
But this whole episode was so incredible on a variety of levels. One is, I. I was that conservative Christian kid growing up.
- [17:27]
B
Oh, my God, no.
- [17:29]
A
Oh, Very, very conservative. Very cultish. Now, thankfully, I got out. I'm not in the same universe as Gwen Stefani. But you mentioned on that episode that you weren't allowed to listen to Gwen growing up. And I was wondering, what was the reason for that? Did you have a conservative sort of upbringing as well? Or what was the reason that she wasn't allowed that kind of music?
- [17:52]
B
I wouldn't call my parents conservative, but I'm the oldest child, and it's crazy because, like, I. And I know every old, oldest child thinks this, but, like, wait, let me turn the echo cancellation on, because it's echoing. Oh, it can't be changed while recording. I just remember, like, my parents didn't want me to. Like, they were. They were. I'm the oldest child, so they were just, like, more protective. Whereas, like, my youngest sister was able to, like, have a TV in her room and do whatever the hell she wanted. Like, yeah, I remember I wanted, like, the TLC CD which said crazy sexy co school. And my parents were like, absolutely not. You're not getting something that says sexy on it. And, like. And I just remember, like, with the Gwen Stefani stuff, there was my mom making comments about, like, like, you know, these people. Like, I don't know. It was Just like that era because I think I was in like fourth or fifth grade and I like wanted to listen to like a lot of pop music and my mom was like trying to steer me towards like raffy and like, you know, just like kids music. And I was like, no. And I, because I had a bunch of younger siblings, I was always having to like, you know, just like have or like watch movies that like my younger siblings wanted to watch. You know, it was always like instead of having older siblings. So yeah, I mean by. Definitely by high school I could, I was listening to whatever I wanted. I was very into like Dave Matthews Band and like stuff from that era. But it's funny Christian, you know, I was not Christian at all. Like, we were like, my parents, grandparents are Irish Catholic and stuff. But like we, we didn't grow up super religious. We like went to church, but it wasn't that deep. But in college I got to college and my roommate freshman year who I really love was really religious and I joined Campus Crusade for Christ. And for like a whole semester I got like really into like. Because I had like never been exposed to any of that. And I just thought it was really interesting. And I got to go to the churches where they have like the cool music and all this stuff.
- [19:41]
A
Super cool music.
- [19:42]
B
I was really into that. And then I joined my sorority and quit that. And that was my cult.
- [19:47]
A
I have several friends. Well, I think friends is probably a bit intense because, you know, we used to hang out years and years ago. But I have several people that I used to be friends with that are still like, they are employed by Campus Crusade for Christ. Like, that's still their full time job. It's still a thing where like they have to raise a bunch of money. They have to raise all their money from their, from their grandma and their cousins and their neighbors so that, you know, they don't get paid by Campus Crusader for Christ. They're missionaries essentially and they go and live on these campuses and try to try to convert all of these kids to Christianity. And I mean they tried. I won't go into my history, but like they tried to recruit me as well to be, to work for them. Way back in the day. I mean it was a. I was.
- [20:32]
B
Kind of eating it up. I think I had never really been exposed to that. And I went to college in Colorado at U Boulder, which is like a big state school. And I just had never been to like a big Colorado, like mega church vibe. Like.
- [20:44]
A
Right.
- [20:45]
B
You know, one of those types of things that I was like Wait, I could get into this. I was like, yeah, sure.
- [20:49]
A
Well, I think, I think, you know, a lot of it, A lot of the reason why I think it was attractive maybe to you or, you know, to others is that it's, it is a take away the, the religious part of it. Like, it is a good, It's a good place to be. Like, it's a, you know, like you're not getting hammered. You're not, you know, like, it is a different environment where it feels, you know, safe. And they're like, actually, I think a lot of these people, again, despite the proselytizing nature behind it all, like, they're good people that really want to, like, create a community for these kids, these younger people. And so I totally understand. If you're away from home and you're not fitting in with that group and you don't want to sleep around, you don't want to do these things yet, or you're trying to figure your way out, then this group says, yeah, come, like, we'll feed you pizza and Coke and, you know, we'll hang out and sure, you got to listen to this little message or whatever, but, like, we're your. We're your family away from home. Like, yeah, that's.
- [21:41]
B
I love attractive.
- [21:43]
A
I was like, yeah, I love, I love that we have that. I mean, yeah, my whole world was again, I won't get into it. It would take too long. But that was, that was my world for a long, long, long, long time until I started peeling away in my late 20s. Thank. Thank God. Thank the gods. Okay, so anyway, we got, we have that. So you have let, you know, you mentioned you. Your little sort of life life update your story with just talking about, you know, the different places you worked for and then ultimately became, you know, self employed, going out on your own, independent. But you did work for. I do. I think it's worth mentioning just as a. As a means of. You don't need my help building up your credibility. But like, you worked for everyone. Like, you did. You did a lot.
- [22:29]
B
I mean, the daily buzzfeed. I kept trying to get hired at buzzfeed.
- [22:33]
A
They wouldn't hire you.
- [22:34]
B
F they finally. I think I finally got a job offer. Like, right when I got hired by the New York Times, like, a bunch of places were recruiting me. Nick, when I tell you the amount of times I tried to get. Because you remember BuzzFeed, if you were a millennial in like 2014, like, that was like the coolest place you could work. And I applied to every job and I freelanced for BuzzFeed. Like, I wrote for BuzzFeed sometimes, but, like. Yeah, no, they never, they never hired me. They had like, I mean, it was really competitive and they had like five other of like the best Internet culture.
- [23:02]
A
Reporters, but, but they didn't have the best of the best. So. Yeah, yeah. Daily Mail, People Magazine, the Hill, Daily Beast, New York Times, Washington Post. And you mentioned a little bit of why you left. Like, what. Do you ever regret leaving sort of establishment media and what's. Okay, good, good. I mean, it's, it's, it's dead. It's dying. If not dead, it's completely unreliable. It's terrible. I mean, I hate, you know, I have friends that work at some of these publications still, and I, One of the battles is, like, I want to. You know, I have a couple of friends that work at the Times, and they're amazing people. They're good people. This is a job for them. And they're trying to, they're trying to put good in these sort of environments. But I'm like, I can't. Like, you're one of the few people that I can't support. I can't buy that subscription because I know you're. Now, it's not, it's not going to affect you directly. And I'm, and I'm giving them one more number to count, you know, for their fucking, you know, board, you know, to say, hey, we have this many subscribers, so it sucks because I want them to have a job, obviously I want them to do well in life, but I also want.
- [24:12]
B
New York Times is doing fine.
- [24:13]
A
Yeah, yeah, they're going to be fine. But I just also want all of these, you know, sort of traditional media establishments to. I would love a world full of independent journalists and content creators, but like, how, yeah, how's that transition been? Are, do you feel, do you feel supported? Is it going well? And why should more. Why should people that are in traditional media think about doing this or maybe those that aren't in media at all but want to? Like, they're sort of growing up. Like, should, should they try to get a job at the Times or should they get on YouTube and like, try to begin. Make. Yeah, how would, how would you sort of address that for those listening, if there's anyone that is considering one or the other?
- [24:54]
B
Well, definitely don't take a job. I mean, the worst thing that you can do when you're young is like, go into establishment, like, anything, because you get no respect. You're going at a very Low level. I mean, I actually got a job offer from the New York times back in 2012 and I didn't take it, which was I was just starting out and they were trying to hire me for like this social media role and I was like, if I'm going to work at the New York Times, I'm going to be like a reporter. And I want like a good job at the New York Times. So like you can't. And I remember them being like, oh, who turns down the opportunity of like, you know, but it's like, because that's. Then you fall in for like credentialism kind of BS and like what happens to a lot of young people is like they really want, you know, that name. And so they just get kind of like a bullshit job there and then those. And then once you're in at this like low level job, they don't respect you. And it is so true that like you can't give these places any respect if they think that you buy into their, like they're like hierarchical, weird little worlds. Like, they'll just roll, they'll run all over you. I mean, this kind of has to do with like when I quit because I like, it's like you have to be so willing to quit and walk away and they, and they think that you won't. Right? Like they, like that's what they bank on, is that they'll pay you below market rate because you get the pleasure of working at this big name and then you have to ask them for more and more money and they don't do it unless you quit. And, and I like, for me, I'm just like, okay, I'm just gonna quit. Just like I don't, you know, Like, I feel like I'm like, you're lucky. And I know this sounds like self whatever, but I think everyone should have this energy of like, you're lucky. Like, I'm not working for charity. Like, you're making money off me. I know how well my stories do. My stories were some of the top. Like, I write about a lot of viral things, so I'm kind of like, you're lucky to have me. And if you're not gonna treat me and give me everything that I want or we can't come to an agreement, then that's totally fine, like, no hard feelings, but I'm not going to do it. Like, I'm not going to like take less money than I deserve or take or be under restrictions of like what I can do and say. And the times was Was, was like that, like it's, it's hard place to like. I mean, I liked working there because I liked my editor and my team and I love everyone, actually. The tech team there, I really like adore them and they're wonderful. And like, Pui Wang is an amazing editor. Like the business team as a whole at the time is. Times is pretty good. But you know, then they like Apollo. Yeah. Then they're like, I mean, what really. I was there when they were starting to shift to like the anti trans stuff and I think the, the way they covered policing, I started to notice and I just felt like, I don't know, I wasn't like going to. I wasn't necessarily going to quit, but the Washington Post came to me and like, was recruiting me so aggressively and was like, basically come here and you can be a columnist. Which means you can say and do like, you can say whatever you want. Like, you're not going to be a reporter. You'll. You'll be a columnist. And so I just had like a lot more freedom. And I was like, all right, I know I said no more legacy news, but like, I'll do this one more job.
- [27:54]
A
It's a different situation.
- [27:55]
B
Yeah, it was a different situation. And there was this like, editors that I really, really wanted to work for. And so I was basically stayed there to work for this editor. Mark Seibel and Drew Har work with Drew Harwell, who's like my journalism hero. He's like the best reporter in the business in my opinion. He's phenomenal. And so, yeah, and then like last June, my editor retired. The week after he retired, they fired our first female editor in chief and like replaced all the senior managers and everyone started to quit and all these things started to happen and started to get bad. And I had, I had wanted to go independent. So I spent like all last summer making my business plan and doing all this stuff. And I was talking to people like, should I launch before or after the election? I had this like month, like almost month long vacation planned. In September, I went to Italy and I was like, all right, I want to like, go to Italy and not have to like, do it on my own. You know what I mean? Like, I wanted to like, use all my pto. So I anyway, but initially I was like, maybe I'll do it right after the election. And then everyone was like, don't do it after the election, do it before the election. Which I'm so glad I did. Mm. But so, yeah, so I left in October.
- [29:05]
A
Why Why? Why was it better?
- [29:07]
B
Why before the election? Yeah, because actually this guy who works in influencer marketing who totally called the election, Brendan Gahn, like one of the smartest people in the business. He. I remember I wrote this piece and I was talking to him and he was like, you know, the Democrats are really fucked. They've only been doing short form strategy. They have no deep, like, what Trump is doing with like all of his media strategy is like really working. And I think basically it could end up like working out really well where he's going to win. And everyone else I talked to was like, you need to have launched where you are where basically because where you can say whatever you want and do whatever you want and like be. Because even though I could say whatever I want, like, I couldn't like endorse political candidates or like, say as much of like the, about the election itself just because the Washington Post is so like, political. And so they were like, it's just to your benefit to launch before because after it's going to be hard. And they were like, if, if Kamala wins, people are not going to subscribe to a political. Not that my newsletter is super political, but I do talk a lot about politics and people. They were like, people are just going to go back to checking out. So I.
- [30:12]
A
That makes sense.
- [30:13]
B
Yeah. And the lead up to the election, like there's so much attention on media and if you can cover election like a cycle, like you get a lot of attention from that. So I really, honestly, I should have just quit last summer and launched last summer if I was smarter. But it took me a while to. And I wanted to take my vacation and you know. Yeah, that makes it for like three years.
- [30:35]
A
I'm glad you, I'm glad you got to do that. There's a thousand different things, different directions we could go. But again, as I stated at the beginning, I'm glad we're chatting now for a few different reasons. Let me explain. So as I think about my audience, the let's give a damn community, the kind of work they're trying to do, we're trying to do, get all these emails, DMs, you know, constantly back and forth trying to figure out how to not just survive, but like how to, you know, make meaningful impact given the absolutely fucked up times we're in. So there's, you know, as you know better than any of us, there's a million wrong ways to use the Internet and a few good ways to use the Internet, I think. And I'm trying to figure that out. Sometimes I use it in the wrong ways. I think it's by and large, you know, fucked us over so much, but as, you know, as empire is crumbling before our eyes, and I think it is. How do we. How do we do this Internet thing, this, you know, this social media thing? Like, I love social media. It's helped me create this, like, beautiful community. It's helped me connect with, interview, work with some incredible folks, you know, people that me, as a poor immigrant kid has no business, you know, dealing with. But here we are. You know, the Internet has helped me do all of that. You know, it's also helped us. And I say helped. I don't know if that's the right word here, but, like, it's helped us witness in real time a lot of the things that have happened over the past, you know, since 2015. Like, we didn't have to take it. We didn't have to take these things from, you know, the media. We got to see them for ourselves, whether it's. Whether it's just the rise of Trumpism and Maga, war crimes and atrocities committed by Israel, the US and other global superpowers. I could go on and on about, you know, with, like, my praise for the Internet and social media while also realizing that it has fucked us up quite a bit. And so how do we. You're. You're the. You're the main person that I want to talk to about this. Like, how do we do this thing? You know, how do we do this? Well, you just wrote. Actually, I'm gonna skip ahead to a thought that I had. You know, you just, you just did this video a few days ago, the Rise and Fall of the Resistance. Right. Which I thought was so good. It's 25 minutes. Really helpful. I just watched it yesterday and then again today just thinking about this. But I'll share it with Everybody the longer 25 subscribe to my YouTube. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. We'll share all of that for sure. I want everybody doing that. The rise and fall, the resistance. What a great 25. I mean, literally every. I'm not saying. I don't say that this lightly. I consume a lot of the Internet. That 25 minutes should be consumed by everyone who gives a damn.
- [33:28]
B
Like, so much to me. Thank you.
- [33:31]
A
It really is. You did such a great. And I'm sure you know that 25 minutes probably, I assume, took hours and hours.
- [33:37]
B
So long. It literally took me like two months to make that video because I'm such a slow editor too. And I wanted to put up, like, so many articles and.
- [33:44]
A
Yeah, and so you do all the editing and stuff? Is that what you're saying? That you're like, you're doing it all?
- [33:50]
B
Yeah, I'm doing everything right now. Except I will say shout out to Chris, who helps me on my podcast. And he does. Yeah, he does help me on my podcast. So I do everything except that. But, yeah, and he did help me with making that video. I did the first edit, and then he helped me make it look a little less shitty. So he is. I can't. I can't claim 100% credit, but, yeah, he helps me. I'm just so bad at premiere that every time I try to do something like, it looks like shit, I just started.
- [34:23]
A
Side note. So I. For. For. With the podcast specifically, like, I've had an. I've had a producer and an editor for the whole time. And then like, six months ago, I was like, then this producer and editor is awesome. But I was also like, I want to. I want to figure some of this stuff out on my own. I don't know if that was. I still don't know if that was a bad or good decision. But I've been making the podcast over the past few months, and it is so absolutely not easy. Like, it's, you know, like this. I'm not. I'm not a. I'm not an editor. I'm not a video guy. I'm not an audio guy. Like, you know, it seems like such a simple thing to do. Like, my podcasts are not complicated. You know, I do very little editing. I keep all the ums and the odds and, like, it's very straightforward. I add up, you know, add different things. Music and intro and outro and all that. But it's still so hard. So it's, you know, props to you for. With Chris's help.
- [35:15]
B
So much time.
- [35:16]
A
It does.
- [35:16]
B
But I love Chris. But I do everything. Yeah, I do almost. And I, I. It's. It takes up so much of my time, and it's such a labor of love, and it takes hours and hours and hours. And I do. I script everything. I produce everything. I mean, I do everything that I make. I do pretty much 100% myself.
- [35:37]
A
Well, this is helpful, too, because part of what I want to. Part of this conversation, where I want it to go, is I do want to convince more people listening to. Stop your subscription. If you have any subscriptions to Big Box Media, like, consider stopping it immediately and supporting the Taylor Lorenz of the world, the Aaron Mates of the World. Like, these people out there that are doing such good work as independent journalists, like, really, it's exceptional work. Aaron Mate was on the podcast a few months ago, and, like, his stuff, everything he puts out is so incredibly great.
- [36:09]
B
But, like, I just want to say with the Rising, that I lost money on that video. Like, that video has it caught, like, the amount of time and resources that I spent. Like, and then, like, I paid Chris a little bit to, like, fix the graphics and stuff and like, like, caught. I, like, lose money doing those things. And so I just wish people would. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [36:33]
A
I mean it. So, so let's, let's actually, let's go there along with my question. Like, in here, we are current day. We, we, we all generally know the good of social media and the Internet and the bad. And then you make this really great video because so many of the people listening to. I love these folks, but they are head over heels. They were head over heels into this hashtag resistance. These, These, these people on the Internet that were creating. They were creating content. They're not principled people. They don't have scruples, morals. Like, they're not good people. And yet a lot of my friends, a lot of my people who have the best intentions, who want to give a damn, who want to do good in the world, we're just relying on their every word, you know, Like, I got a lot of their. They would send me the tweets and they would send me the art. They would send me the videos and, you know, ever. I got sent every Sarah Cooper video ever, you know? You know, and so there was this whole era of, huh?
- [37:35]
B
I don't want to hate on her, but.
- [37:36]
A
Yeah, no, but it's. But, but here's the thing is there was a whole. There was a whole several years of air quotes, activism and resistance that did fuck all for actually getting us closer to liberation, actually getting us closer to not having another Trump in office or Elon rise to literally president level. Like, we had opportunity. We could have done that. We could have done the work. We have so much history behind us. All we have to do is be good students to see how, how movements, how Empire falls, what we need to do in the process, how to actually, like, enact a revolution. And we did none of that. All we did was fucking, like, tweet and share stuff. And they.
- [38:19]
B
These resistance, These conservative resistance influencers. Millions of dollars.
- [38:24]
A
Yes. Yeah, it was a very profitable business because they, they tried. They figured out, not tried to. They figured out how to make stuff that gets Them Netflix deals or, you know, millions of views or whatever the case may be. And so you're the perfect person to say, what the hell do we do, Taylor? Like, here we are, 2025, they are kidnapping people off the streets that are. That are legal citizens because they showed up at a protest. They are. I mean, there's so much anti trans shit going on. Anti immigration, anti refugee. Like, we're in a really. We're in a really bad place. And it was bad under Biden. I fucking hated that guy too. Like, he was so bad for the genocide. Like, he was so bad on so many levels. I mean, what a. What a mediocre, milquetoast human. Like, if there ever was one. Covid. Yes, Covid.
- [39:11]
B
Let's not forget that Genocide Joe came from disabled people calling him Genocide Joe because he lied about COVID to the American public and said, oh, actually Covid is totally gone, so you should just get back to work and keep getting sick. And. Yeah, oh, the vaccines prevent transmission. Actually, they don't. And by the way, you should get vaccinated anyway. But, like, it's. Even if you're vaccinated, it's not harmless to get repeatedly infected with a neuroinvasive disease that infects every organ of your body. Like, that is not gonna. This idea that disease is good is actually a fundamental belief of anti Vax ideology. And now you've convinced the entire public of it. And that's why we're seeing the. I cover a lot to do with anti Vaxx stuff. And it's been so disturbing to see people like Biden provide this on ramp. Or, you know, or maybe it's like more of an off ramp to liberalism, which is, I think, what I framed it in the video, which is like. And I think he did the same thing with the genocide and all this other stuff. It's like just normalizing all this stuff. And I mean, to answer your previous question of, like, what should people do? It's like, stop listening to these establishment, neoliberal elite people. They do not have your back. They will never have your back. They will always sell you out tomorrow. Like the media that they back, which is like places like the New York Times again, that does do some amazing work, but also provides cover for the most abhorrent things ever. I mean, the worst Covid misinformation that I saw, actually back in 2021, and I remember when I worked here, science reporters at the New York Times were sounding the alarm, being like, hey, you're letting David Leonhardt Spread literal, dangerous health misinformation and lie to the public. Because he's not technically like a reporter, he's a columnist. So he can just lie in the news section of the paper and give health misinformation. And I mean, that was just the tip of the iceberg. You see that they lie about the police stuff. You see that they lie about Israel. Like, these places know what they're doing. There is an ideology that they push. There's no such thing as neutral media. It just doesn't exist. So I just think that people need to look at things with a more critical lens and stop listening to these people that don't have your back. They don't have a work. They don't have any solidarity with the working class.
- [41:21]
A
They don't get trouble.
- [41:22]
B
And that was my point with the resistance video. These are fundamentally conservatives. Joe Biden is not a progressive guy. He did some good things. I'm not going to say he, like, obviously he's better than Trump. Obviously. Okay, like, of course, yes, Like, Trump's like just a fascist. So, like, sure. But if you incrementally move closer and closer to fascism every single election cycle while telling your base to shut up and vote for you, that's a losing strategy. And I think that, that people need to start holding Democrats accountable. And the problem that we see, and I covered this so extensively. I mean, I covered the 2016 election and like, my point with the resistance stuff too is like, you guys are willing to resist all this stuff under, remember, no, no human is illegal. Right? That's what you. That's what these resistance people used to say in 2017, 2018. Then Biden wants to, you know, do all of this evil shit with ICE and, you know, deport people. And obviously, again, not as bad as Trump. Okay, I feel like, don't think I'm making false equivalences. My point is, is that nobody was holding, like, rather the media and these establishment resistance figures were not holding Biden accountable when he was president. They were not holding him accountable for adopting policies that were further to the right of Trump on Covid. Like, they didn't hold him accountable. They just wanted to buy into right wing framing and be like, well, it's okay if deportations are happening. You know, it's okay if we don't abolish ICE because Biden is president now. It's okay if we just let disabled people die and millions of people become permanently disabled by long Covid, which is not fully prevented by the vaccines because Biden's president and you should just be happy a blue person is in office. Like, no, that's not enough.
- [43:01]
A
That's it. That's. And that's ridiculous nonsense that I hope is currently. I hope. I'm not sure if that it is, but I hope that it's currently dissolving. Like, over the past five years, how, how many times have we seen Democrats do the same thing that they accused Republicans of doing, which was defend your dear leader on everything? Right. Like, just because they're blue. You had. And they would say, how. How are you? So, like, okay, we didn't put the hats on and we didn't put the shirts on, but we still, we still. I say we just generally, I very reluctantly voted for Biden. I did not want to, but it was a decision, you know, back, Back in the day.
- [43:41]
B
I get it. When the alternative is. I understand. Like, I would never fault people for doing that. The problem is the complacency. Once you get the Democrats in office, it's the complacency, and that's what's allowed all of these atrocities to happen.
- [43:56]
A
And that's why we're here.
- [43:58]
B
Yeah, and it's like. Yeah, it's just, it's. I, I mean, I wrote a lot about this, too, and I think it's also. It's. There's a lot of conspiracies happening as well in liberal spaces now, too, where they just. It's denialism is. It's the same cult of, sort of cult mindset that they accused Trump people of having and which MAGA people definitely have, but it's applied to the Democrat leader. And I just, I really hope that they can see that these Democratic establishment people don't have their back. They would. They really don't. They would rather lose to Trump multiple times than have any sort of real progressive change. And I just, I'm like, how many elections do we need to lose for this? To be clear, if, if, if we.
- [44:38]
A
Have another election, we will. If we, if we.
- [44:43]
B
They're just going to be gerrymandered and fake.
- [44:45]
A
Yeah, yeah. Just. But if we have another one. You know, I'm, I'm working with Chris Smalls on his general strike for resignations thing, but he also is just launching, you know, a different kind of Labour Party. A very, A very. Not like the UK Labour Party. Fuck that as well, but like, sort of a different kind of Labour Party. Like, do you think. Do you think that there is a possibility for a third party to ever viably run? Even. Even with the, Even with the outrage that's happening. Like, this is the most outrage I think you can have. And it's not even that much like, we should be in the streets every single day and we're not. So even at this level, like, of outrage from people.
- [45:30]
B
Yeah, I, I mean, here's, here's the problem with the Democrats. They don't cater to their base at all. Like, the. Say what you will about the Republicans, they cater. They're like, okay, we have a fundamental, like, like fundamentalist like, extremist base, and Trump is going to do things for them and cater to them, and those people are going to be welcomed into the broader movement. The Democrats are like, basically, they have this, like, capture by this, by actually the minority of their party, which is just these rich, elite people that want neoliberal policies that are overwhelmingly unpopular, actually, with the American public. And they don't cater to their base. They don't even speak to their base. They tell their base to go fuck off. They revoked. They revoke the credentials of people like Hasan Piker, like, at the DNC on stream. Like, how stupid can you be? They literally want to lose. So, you know, I don't know. It's been interesting. I mean, I'm not a Democrat. I really am not affiliated with either party. I just. I would rather kill myself than affiliate with the Democratic Party the way it is right now. Like, I just know. And I think there's actually a lot of people like that. I think there's a lot of disaffected people that. I mean, I have pretty much a lot of my friends identify as Democrats. I'm like, why? Like, what about this party speaks to you at this point? And so I do think that there is an appetite for it. It's just hard because you have the entire right wing, where that party speaks to their base, that party is captured. That party has an enormous amount of political power. And the Democrats as well have. I mean, the Democrats are completely like, I do. I do kind of take the Republicans point that, like, places like the New York Times or Washington Post or whatever are like mouthpieces for the Democratic Party. I think that's like a little bit egregious because they actually do have editorial standards that like Breitbart and these other places don't. Right, but they do. I mean, but look at the coverage of Biden versus Trump. I mean, it's night and day, and it's so clear. Their bias is so clear. I mean, even having worked there, it's like, I'm like, oh, you know, the Republicans are Right. Like, there is no leftist media like, the, the entire media establishment, from like MSNBC to, to the New York Times. It's, it's an elite neoliberal worldview and it's a pro capitalism worldview. It's a pro corporation worldview. It's pro establishment. And I just think a lot of those ideals are not resonating with people. And we know they're not resonating with people because people are moving to the far right. And they're moving to the far right because the far right is at least speaking the language of populism. They're not adopting populism. They're actually just shilling for billionaires. But they, but they speak. They, they, they are anti establishment. I mean, Trump himself, like, ironically, like, his policies are not anti establishment. He himself is very much among the establishment, but, like, he uses anti establishment language. And that's why you saw so many Bernie people going for Trump because they just like. And I think it shows that actually it's not about policy. And they like a lot of Bernie's policies. They like a lot of progressive policies. Elizabeth Warren as well, like, you know, but, but then you have the entire Democrat machine crush these people and drive them out of, like, races and cut their funding and cut them off at every second. Yeah, I mean, look at what, look at Bernie and aoc. Look at what they're doing right now. Clear. Like they're the only ones that are even like, speaking to a base and trying to rally people. Like, everyone else is just like, back to brunch, you know, going to cocktail parties with, you know, Lindsey Graham or whoever else that they associate with in D.C. like, it's all just one club and you're not in it. You know, like that saying.
- [49:01]
A
That's a, that's a great point. Is they're, they're all in a club. I mean, even, you know, at. Was that Carter's funeral when you saw, you know, that famous picture of Obama, like, chumming it up, at least I don't know what they were talking about, but there was a laugh. Like, there's no situation. There's nothing that, there's nothing that asshole fascists could say that would make me laugh. So regardless of what you were laughing at, Obama, you showed us that, like, you don't give a fuck about.
- [49:27]
B
But they're, but they're all war criminals.
- [49:29]
A
Yes.
- [49:29]
B
This goes back to my broader point, which is like, Obama was drone striking people. Obama also did, did like, horrific.
- [49:36]
A
They're all trash immigration.
- [49:37]
B
Like, these are all people that like have done evil, terrible things. There's not a president. So I just wish people would recognize that and stop deifying these political leaders that are, again, tools of the establishment, tools of corporations, rich people. We have so much money in politics. It's really dangerous. And I do. Yeah, I wish we had a party that spoke for the working class, could speak for people, the average working people that are getting screwed left and right by both political parties. And they both work together, let's not forget, and I've covered this so much, but I care a lot about free speech, unlike pretty much, I think everyone else in politics. Both political parties have worked together so closely to dismantle free speech. We could not have the, you know, the rollback of our civil liberties now if we had not had Biden. I mean, Biden passed the TikTok ban and bragged about it, literally. His administration worked with Gallagher, who's now a Palantir executive, to ban TikTok. Why? Because of Israel. It had absolutely nothing to do with China. And as a reporter that covered this very in depth for the Times and the Post, which the Post, the Wall Street Journal and New York Times have all reported is this was about Israel, had nothing to do with China. They don't care about China getting our data. China can get our data from third party Facebook vendors left, right and center. Shein and Temu collect far more data and are actually based in China. Unlike TikTok, they're not banning them. But you know, and you had Rep. Gallagher laughing with Warner on stage at the recent Munich security conference, admitting, saying, yes, we banned it over Israel, laughing that they get away with it. And this all happened with Biden's permission. Biden set that president how, you know, that same law can be used to ban media organizations and will likely be used for that purpose. And Biden set that legal precedent. So I just want people to, like, stop thinking these Democrats are doing good. They do some good things, but then they do a lot of really evil stuff and pave the way for fascism.
- [51:34]
A
Yeah. And the few good things they do pale in comparison to the evil shit. And so like, so at the end of the day, you don't get flowers for that. Like, you don't get. You get zero. You get nothing from me because your bad far outweighs the good. You know, and I love how you ended that. You ended the video with, you know, why the death of resistance is good. And I want to read sort of the last couple sentences because I think they were really powerful. You know, you ended it with Resistance shouldn't be a media brand or personality culture. Reactionary politics can't be countered by smug tweets, hashtags, cable news, talking points, or RBG merch. Ultimately, the death of the resistance presents an opportunity. This is so good. To reconstruct opposition to right wing extremism on a more solid foundation. It gives the next generation of the resistance, actual, hopefully, resistance, the opportunity to fight for actual systemic change. This evolution is crucial if we ever want to build a system that serves everyone needs, not just the needs of the rich establishment. And that brings me to sort of a, sort of a final phase of our conversation for today, which is like, I believe I live on the Internet, so do you. Like, I'm on it so many hours a day, way too many. And yet I believe, like, I see as I'm thinking about as empire crumbles, and I hope it crumbles faster than it is. Like, the future is so uncertain. But I do believe that if we're going to achieve collective liberation, it's going to, it's going to require, you know, all sorts of mutual aid structures. Food, water sovereignty. Food, water independence, decentralized energy, victory gardens.
- [53:12]
B
Like wearing a mask. Wearing a mask, yes. Like, not only is climate change real, but like airborne disease is real. And it's the most simple thing you can do. Like, we're in an ongoing pandemic and so many liberals and left.
- [53:24]
A
Yes, say that again, Taylor. The pandemic's not over, as the World.
- [53:28]
B
Health Organization literally just affirmed last year and, and all of these political. I mean, I was. Somebody sent me something recently because they wrote this post and they were like, in. The pandemic ended. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Random political leaders in the US cannot determine that the pandemic is over. Like, this is a, that's a political designation. But definitionally, definitionally, Covid is still spreading at pandemic levels and killing thousands and thousands of people every single month and disabling people. Thank God it's not killing people at the same rate as 2020, because we do have some, you know, we have like, medicine and, you know, vaccines. But let me tell you something. Covid fucks your immune system. Covid just can destroy your immune system to the point that you barely can. You know, you don't have a, you don't generate the same immune response. So you're just, again, this is like being like, oh, well, I got a vaccine, so I can just repeatedly infect myself with rabies. Like, no, that's not good. Same thing. With measles, you can be vaccinated and have, you know, a case because you're immunosuppressed or whatever. And so I just think like so many people drank this Kool Aid and I just want you to think, look at how the media lies to you about Gaza. Look at how the media lies about all of these things. And please recognize that you have been drinking up right wing propaganda on Covid and infectious disease. And that is you have, you've been fed that stuff so that they can dismantle public health. And the easiest thing you can do is acknowledge the reality of this airborne pandemic and also just keep yourself healthy. Even if Covid went away tomorrow, there's a reason, like people, you know, countries that have masking normalized, like you're breathing in a huge amount of infectious disease and you cannot do that.
- [55:12]
A
No, that's great. That's a huge part of it. Because if, if, if the, if the future is, you know, us taking care of us, right? Which it should be like, I'm also like a socialist, but also like we got to take care of us. Like ultimately even, even quote, unquote, good governments that take care of their people will fuck you over the first chance they get. So like ultimately it's us. So whether it's mutual aid masks, taking care of each other, staying healthy, how do we balance that professional Internet or Taylor Lorenz, how do we balance moving toward collective liberation in that way while still staying. While still realizing that we have to stay. Like, I'm not going to go off the grid. Like my work is. I am on every single day. The Internet helped me raise hundreds of thousands of dollars last year for Gaza. Like the Internet helped me build like, so I have to. How do we do both? How do we do both?
- [55:59]
B
Well, that's another thing that's been scary to see is this sort of like left it, like from the left and especially from Democrats like this. I mean, do not fall for like the anti Internet propaganda censorship stuff that they're pushing. Things like the Kids Online Safety act is that, that's a censorship bill. It's the same thing with the TikTok ban like you are. And I just, I'm making a video right now on these child influencer laws. These laws are not about protecting child influencers. They are censorship bills. They are laws that apply to any single content creator in states now are going to be subject to having your content potentially arbitrarily removed through these laws. Which is something, it's these legal precedents that we've never seen before. I think everyone should read this book called Murder the Truth, which just came out by David Enrich, who is one of the very good reporters at the New York Times. And it's about the right wing sort of attempt to overturn New York Times v. Sullivan, which is the landmark Supreme Court case that really guarantees a free press. And people need to realize that you can critique social media companies, but this moral panic about kids in social media or social media is inher bad. The Internet's poisoning us. The Internet is a mirror to our society. And yes, these platforms can be problematic in various ways. They're also very powerful tools. Again, look at how you know, journalists in Gaza are using Instagram and TikTok. Right. Like we wouldn't have these vehicles into the world despite the amount of suppression that these platforms put on content like that. So I think there are better ways to build these networks through technology, leverage the Internet for good. Build platforms that are more decentralized, less, you know, less top down and more kind of, yeah, less, less profit driven overall. But I think we don't, you know, this idea of like oh, just get offline and get into the real world. Yeah sure, like do that. But also leverage the power of the Internet because you know, who's leveraging the power of the Internet more than anyone else is far right.
- [57:51]
A
Exactly.
- [57:52]
B
So logging off is not the solution. That doesn't mean you should doom scroll all day and spend all day on Twitter getting radicalized. But like I just, I worry when I see that sort of language there this piece in 404 Media a while ago that I really didn't like that was like, that was like get off the Internet. And it's also just like, especially during an ongoing pandemic when like tens of millions of people are permanently disabled, have been permanently disabled by Covid. They can't go outside in public. Right. So they can't. A lot of them have to stay home. And so online activism can be very powerful.
- [58:25]
A
What, what I love, I love that because I think what you just said at the end is super important. I say it often on this platform but it's so important that like if we, if we dip out like the. It's a very privileged thing. I'm all for taking care of, I'm all for taking care of yourself, take care of each other. I'm all for whatever self care like I'm all for figuring all of that out. But the future is, it's going to live in all the ways on the Internet around the Internet under it, over it on this. Like it's all Internet and AI and all the stuff that's coming. So, so it's a very, it's a very privileged and could be very self centered thing to say. I'm getting off, I'm, I'm dipping out because I can't handle it. And it's. Well, you like, because you're gonna, I mean, kind of like, I get it, take care of yourself. But also this is where it's all happening. So the more you dip out, that's a bigger piece of the piece. For all the right wing radicals that will take of it. They've got all the, they've got all of their, they got all the streams going, they've got all their YouTube shows going, all their, I mean literally, I don't even want to go count how many new right wing propaganda hasbara podcasts are popping up, each and every. Right. But so they're taking advantage of it. And if we devout in the name of quote unquote taking care of ourselves, we are not getting any closer to a future where we can offline take care of each other. Like we're literally giving it to them.
- [59:56]
B
Yeah, exactly. But again, this goes back to like, we need to care about each other.
- [60:01]
A
Yeah.
- [60:01]
B
Like you like just the fact that so many people won't even. And I just, I guess I like keep coming back to masking because I'm immunocompromised, I'm severely immunocompromised. And I just think about this all the time where it's like these same people that in 2020, when they thought that they were vulnerable and by the way, they've drunk a brump, like you are still vulnerable. Just so you know, like when the government says I love that question, that's one science reporter asked the former Rochelle Walinsky at the CDC of like. Because she said, well, only vulnerable people need to worry about COVID Guess who's vulnerable According to the CDC's definition of vulnerable populations? Everyone. Literally everyone. Because if you've had Covid once you're vulnerable, you're now considered a high risk population. If you've had any other things, like, I mean just if you have like, you know, if you're on this, if you're neurodivergent in any way, you're vulnerable for many reasons, like physiologically and stuff. Like there's just all of these things that I think people, people other, each other and they think, well, I'm not one of the vulnerable people. I'm not One of the. Whatever. And it's like, no, protect yourself, but also protect other people. Wear a mask. Literally, it's the number one thing you can do to ensure that you're not actively killing and disabling people around you. Because let me be clear, that is what you are doing when you just go out and you don't wear a mask and you. Spe disease. 40 or 50. It's. 49% of COVID cases are asymptomatic. So you're not going to know you have it. And you're most contagious the days before your symptoms show up. So you're not going to know when you're sick. So just. And even if you, Even if Covid went away again, everyone's immune systems are so destroyed by it. We should just have solidarity. And so I think, like, things like that, obviously mutual aid as well. And just anything that we can do to, like, care about each other. It requires a little bit of inconvenience. And people don't want to hear that. They don't want to do even the littlest bit. And it's like, guys, if you can't even do the littlest bit where you can't put a mask on on the subway, like, yeah, come on. Yeah, because like, the littlest bit.
- [61:59]
A
Yep. I wear. I don't wear them all the time, but I wear them on planes and trains and really any. Any public transportation. I've always got one. One with me for that. And I'm literally one of, you know, you know, you know, the trains here, there's a lot of people on them. Especially like a rush hour. And I might be one of. There might be one other person on there with a mask on. And everybody else is coughing and breathing all over each other, and it's really. It's really so gross.
- [62:22]
B
Especially if you're like, if you're gonna go out. Look, I, I, you know, I know the reality of living in places like New York or somewhere. It's cool. It's like you, you're gonna have to do indoor things. You can't live like it's 2020. I understand that more than anyone, but that's why you should be wearing a mask in these spaces where disabled people can't opt out of. Because disabled people are not able to go to indoor dining and to bars and stuff. So if you are doing that stuff, first of all, just test regularly. That's another thing that you can do to just make sure you're not contagious. But just wear a mask. Just in case maybe you have a flu.
- [62:50]
A
Maybe. That's close. Exactly. It could be any number of things. That's the worst thing about where we've sort of evolved into is for a while, you know, you know, tests and masks were ubiquitous. I mean just you could turn any corner and there be, especially in New York, like literally they're giving them out, they're testing you for free. It was so great being in this place where it was like, oh, I feel bad, let me look on the app. Oh, there's a testing spot half a block away. And now you can't find anything anywhere. Like if you, if you don't have insurance and you go to the urgent care to get tested. 240 bucks. 240 bucks just for them to tell you, you know, just for a test.
- [63:29]
B
You can get rapid tests, which you should swab your throat, which I think people don't know, they still swab their nose. You should swab your throat too. But, but no, there's also, I mean, so I think this is, this goes back to also just class and working class people. There are tons of mask blocks in every single city. Disabled people. While leftists and these fucking privileged ass people at, you know, the New York City DSA and all these other people have been basically shutting disabled people out of public life. Disabled people have come together, they have made Maskbox. You can get free masks, free N95s from these places. Just Google your local mask block. There's huge. I tweet out like a bunch of them. But like there's huge spreadsheets where you can get free tests so you can get. There are resources for people. It's not ideal. I totally agree. And you know what we should be doing is fighting for those things. Yeah, right. We should say like, hey, why? By the way, when I went to Europe a couple years ago, rapid tests were a dollar. And you could get a rapid test with a multi panel test where you swab your throat once and it would test for flu Covid RSV and I think something else. And it was only a dollar or one euro. We could have that in America. We could have, right, like we could have these things. But instead people want to believe far right denialism, eugenics bullshit and just say, well, actually it's easier to pretend that disease doesn't exist or disease is good for you and just let people die and become disabled. That's crazy because you know, what's the one thing that all of us will have in life? We all age. We're all going to be elderly. The person that you. You think, oh, it's only the elderly that are vulnerable. It's only whatever, you yourself will become that person.
- [65:07]
A
Yeah.
- [65:07]
B
It's not even like other things of, like, racism and other sort of forms of oppression where it's like, well, you're never, you know, you're born white. You're never going to be black. Right. Like, you're never going to be another race.
- [65:16]
A
Right.
- [65:16]
B
You will become disabled as you get older. You will. No one gets out of life alive.
- [65:22]
A
Yeah.
- [65:23]
B
So have some solidarity. Recognize that this will affect you at some point. And you might become disabled sooner than you think, especially if you. If you've had multiple COVID infections.
- [65:33]
A
Yeah, I have had too many. Two of them were. While I was masked. Like, I. I went. I got it from a place where, you know, I might have taken it off for a second to, like, eat or drink something. And I, you know, two days later, I mean, I assume based on the timeline, it was from those places.
- [65:49]
B
Well, that's the reality of airborne disease. Right. And that's also why we need to make it for. Why we need. Masking is not enough. Right. We need to clean the air. We need to have clean standards. And if. If we have a lower level of spread, if we have a lower level of community spread, you could have that moment where you take your mask off for a minute. But because we have such high level of community spread. Yeah. Disabled people. I mean, I, Yeah, they tried to get me. I had surgery last week, and they let me keep my N95 on for surgery, which was so nice of the anesthesiologist. And she was like. She was telling me how she was. Everyone was in N95 too. I go to a great place. But, yeah, she was just like, oh, it's so scary and dangerous. And she's like, you know, we've had people show up for surgery with COVID and she's like, we can't. Yeah, we can't see you. And also, you should be in a mask. And also, why are you stepping foot into a hospital? So I just. I just. I think Covid is such a litmus test for so many things. I know people don't want to hear about it anymore, but it really is.
- [66:47]
A
No, it's. It's good. I think. I think people, you know, you've. You've spent a few minutes on this, which I'm so grateful for, and I bet you that some of the people listening are like, just, Taylor, just give it. Like, what are you doing? It's five years later, like, give it up. And I think whoever's listening, people said.
- [67:00]
B
That about HIV too, about a lot of things.
- [67:03]
A
It's like, you need to. If you're feeling uncomfortable, fine. Don't take the, you know, the, the. Don't go the measure the, the lengths that Taylor is going to, to protect herself and others. But, like, if you're feeling uncomfortable, like, deal with that. Like, go sit with that. Why is this making you so uncomfortable? If you say you give a damn if you want to do the best for the most amount of people, why is this one the one that's triggering? Out of all the things we've talked about, why are you feeling that way about this one in particular? And it's because we have been fed just truckloads of bullshit the last five years from, from your homies on the quote, unquote, left the Democrats. Like, they have been. They have been complicit in every way, from the, the pandemic to the genocide to everything. They're not good people. As you said, one club and you're not in it.
- [67:50]
B
And I just want to say one last.
- [67:51]
A
Yeah, please go.
- [67:52]
B
Yeah, that I hear this all the time. They're like, well, it's been five years. I was really involved in AIDS activism growing up and volunteered at Rivington House, this hospice for people with aids. And this whole. We've seen these cycles of denialism before and during the aids, the HIV epidemic. And with aids, you know, sort of peaking and stuff. Back in the 80s, you had people that were like, give it up. Right? Give it up. Why are we still wearing condoms? You don't think that way, hopefully about any other disease. You don't think, God, HIV, it's been 20 years. We have treatments for that stuff now. So I'm not going to take any steps to prevent it. Right, no, you recognize that it's a bad disease. Like, same thing with all of these things. You don't say, God, it's been five years. Enough with the seatbelts. God, can't we just drunk drive already? We didn't drink and drive for 20 years.
- [68:39]
A
It's a great point.
- [68:40]
B
It's like, no, these are precautionary measures that you take to ensure the safety of yourself and others. Seatbelts, not drinking and driving, wearing a condom, you know, washing your hands. You don't say, God, the flu's. I'm so sick of the flu. And actually the flu's airborne, but, you know, you can still get. I'm so sick of norovirus. I'm you know, I'm just gonna not wash my hands anymore, you know. We have to learn to live with it. We have to learn to live with cholera. We have to learn to live with measles. We have to learn to live with polio.
- [69:05]
A
Yeah.
- [69:05]
B
Do you see how things.
- [69:06]
A
It's a wild mindset. Yeah, it's wild.
- [69:08]
B
That's it. That's a eugenics mindset. That's a far right. That belief system, if you told that to someone five years ago before COVID hit, would have correctly been interpreted as extremely far right insane eugenics mindset. And now that is what normal mainstream liberals and leftists are saying. So please use your brain cells and stop drinking up propaganda and recognize that disease is a tool of the state and we should not. Capitalism requires sort of this endless churn of bodies and we need to protect ourselves and protect your health. It's so fragile. You don't realize how fragile it is until it's gone. And yeah, no one is perfect. You're never going to mask 100%, but just try your best. Every little bit makes a difference, you know? Don't beat yourself up. Every little bit makes a difference.
- [69:55]
A
Agreed. Taylor, you're incredible. This has been so fun. Spend a minute telling us how we can support you. All the ways that we can support you.
- [70:06]
B
Usermag Co and I just bought the.com so you can go to usermag.com and it will direct to usermag Co. Big moment for me. So it was like a few hundred dollars more and I was like I should just buy the dot com. Yeah, this is my newsletter and as you mentioned, I have a YouTube so please subscribe to my YouTube and I have a book and the paperback is coming out. And look at the new redesign cover.
- [70:30]
A
Oh, I like it.
- [70:31]
B
Called Extremely online. And yeah, it comes out paperback April 8, so pick it up and make sure.
- [70:37]
A
Obviously you can subscribe to User Mag as a free subscriber, but you can also pay for it. Stop. Stop paying the New York Times for their bullshit and pay. Taylor Lorenz User Mag this has been super fun. I hope it's not the last time. And if it isn't the last time, I hope it's not another year or two before we do this. But thank you so much for your work. I hope that I send a few more comrades over to your work so that we can continue saying goodbye to establishment media and hello to more independent media that doesn't give a shit about propaganda and gives a lot of shit about people.
- [71:15]
B
Thank you so much, Nick, for having me on. I appreciate it. It's fun to choose.