← Let's Give A Damn
Let's Give A Damn
Max La Manna: Low-Waste Living, Hunger Strike for Gaza, and Collective Liberation
01:26:44
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- [00:01]
A
Hello, dear friends. Welcome to the let's Give a Damn Podcast, a show where I have conversations with incredible people who aim to lead the planet much better than they found it. I'm your host, Nick lapara. Thank you so much for being here. Before I introduce this week's guest, I just want to remind you that you can show your support for this show by becoming a monthly donor partner on our Patreon. You can follow us on social media, you can share this episode with friends in person and online, you can buy some merch on our website, let's giveadam.com or maybe you're an organization or company that aligns with us and you'd like to sponsor some episodes. There are so many ways to support and I invite you to explore which ones are right for you. And of course, you can reach out to me anytime at hello, let's Give a damn dot com. Quick update. During the intro on the last episode, I talked about going to Seattle to produce a 5k with UNRWA USA to raise money for relief in Gaza. If you remember, the fundraising goal I shared, it was $300,000, which is a lot of money. Well, fantastic news. We ended up crushing that goal and we raised around $650,000. Seattle and the Pacific Northwest really showed up. So if you sent good vibes my way our way a few weeks ago, thank you. You know, I wish I could publish one episode, just one fucking episode where I didn't have to bring up all the insane things happening in the world and make sure you're okay and sort of talk through them with you really quickly before we get into the episode. Since our last episode, Trump has become a more public fascist than he was before by taking over D.C. militarily, arresting whoever he wants. It's kind of insane what DC looks like right now. Over the past few weeks, you all have seen the videos. He says he's planning to do the same thing in Chicago and New York City, where I live next. In other news, famine, actual famine. In addition to genocide and ethnic cleansing, famine has been declared in Gaza. Israel continues to to purposefully starve innocent Palestinians, and they are still shooting people in the head trying to get food from the designated drop sites. In other news, just last week, another school shooting took place in Minneapolis. Absolutely horrific. Minneapolis, a place where I used to live and still love. Two people were killed and 20 were injured. Two children were killed and 20 were injured. It's pure insanity that we refuse, as a country, to take care of this very solvable issue. Friends, I don't know about you. I wake up every single day, and I don't exaggerate when I say that I wake up every single day with a heavy heart, with tears, and with somewhat of a cloud over my mind and heart as I try to figure out what to do, how to help, where to pitch in. Anyone else tired out there? You know, I try to remind myself to be hopeful, and I am somewhat hopeful. I try to remind myself that I believe people are good at their core. And I do. Most of the time I try to remind myself that there are helpers and damn givers everywhere, which is absolutely true. But then I see a video last week, I see a video of an Israeli woman praising the Double Tap bombing that happened last week at another hospital in Gaza. Double Tap, as you probably already know, meaning that they bombed the hospital. You know the thing that they say they don't do? They bombed a fucking hospital. And then when aid workers and medics and journalists showed up, they bombed the same exact spot and killed 20 people. And we know this happened because it happened on live tv, because it was a double tap, because it had already happened. The first bombing. There were cameras there live. They were live streaming when another bomb hit the same exact spot. And this woman in the video wasn't just praising the bombing. She was gleefully wishing for the death of all Palestinians so Israel could completely take over Gaza. I'm tired, y', all, like so extremely tired. So if you need hope today, if you need to be inspired today, if you need to figure out a few very simple action steps, things you can do today, I believe that my guest today, my guest this week will help you will help me do just that. Max Lamana is an award winning author, low waste chef and a campaigner whose casual approach to cooking has attracted over 2 million followers and more than a billion video views. Drawing from his own life, he shares simple, affordable recipes that make the most of every ingredient and inspire people to waste less. His debut cookbook, More Plants, Less Waste, won most sustainable cookbook at the Gourmand World Cookbook Awards and his follow up was named the World's best vegan cookbook in 2023. Max has been featured in Vogue, Vice and the Guardian. He's hosted the BBC Earth series Regeneration Food as well as he's appeared on major TV shows including BBC Saturday, Kitchen Live, Channel 4's Steph's Packed Lunch. And he's recognized as Digital Creator of the Year and at the Fortnum and Mason Food and Drink Awards. Lastly, for now, because there are others but lastly, he was also named one of the top 30 chefs shaping the future of food. In addition to all those amazing accolades and achievements, Max has been super instrumental, super vocal in raising awareness about the genocide in Gaza. Over the past two years, he has made so many powerful videos that have resulted in lots and lots of impact on lots and lots of people with lots and lots of money raised for relief in Gaza. Here's one example and if you follow Max, then you saw this happen this past week. If you're listening to the podcast the week it releases, the beginning of September. Then last week you saw that Max launched the global supermarket strike that will happen every Thursday from now on. It started last Thursday. Every Thursday from now on. The goal of this strike is to not shop at any supermarkets that sell Israeli products on Thursday. Max has successfully led the boycott of several grocery stores over the past two years that have those boycotts have forced these supermarkets to remove Israeli products from their shelves. This new effort to not shop at any markets that sell Israeli products every Thursday from now on, friends, is an easy way way for each one of you, each one of us to get involved in this conversation. Max and I talk about his upbringing, how he became a low waste and plant based chef, why he doesn't like the term vegan, how he got involved in the movement for Palestinian liberation, and so on. I guarantee you're going to follow everything Max does from here on out after you hear our conversation. Get ready, beloved. This is a really good time. Before we begin, as always, a quick reminder that you can email me anytime and for any reason@helloetsgiveadam.com youm can ask questions, recommend future guests tell me how much you love or hate the show. Anything goes. I just love hearing from you. And don't forget, if you prefer to watch your podcasts instead of listen to them, we're on YouTube as well. And now let's get right into my conversation with the truly remarkable Max Lamanna. Let's go. Max Lamana. Welcome to the let's Give a Damn podcast.
- [08:04]
B
Nick. Great to be here.
- [08:06]
A
It truly is an honor to have you here. I can't. We have so much to talk about, so much to discuss and I've just been. I just want to begin by saying that I'm so incredibly grateful for the way that you use your platform and work. I really, really am. You are doing so many incredible things that we'll discuss here in this conversation, but the way that you use them to bring to light very important things. Everything from plant based living, our Climate waste to Palestine is really, really, really, really, really incredible and helpful. And I think just going through your comments, the way people interact with your platform, I think that's very obvious that I'm not alone in thinking that. So I just wanted to start by saying thank you.
- [09:01]
B
You're gonna make me cry.
- [09:03]
A
You can cry, but don't cry. It, you know, it truly is, it truly, truly is a wonderful thing. And so again, we'll talk about all of that coming up. So it's afternoon. You live in the uk. How are things on your side of the world?
- [09:20]
B
Oof. How are my thing? You know, I think every morning I'm waking up and just remembering to be grateful. Yeah. And I don't want to sound wishy washy, and I hate to start off the podcast like this, but like, I try to remind myself that no matter what is thrown in my way today, whether it might be good or bad, that there's still people struggling to receive aid, food, water, and Palestine. So I remind myself that I have it good. And no matter how much shit is thrown my way today, so I just remind, remind myself every day that you be grateful because you woke up in a bed.
- [10:12]
A
Yeah.
- [10:13]
B
You had eight hours of sleep. You have food and water and shelter. Like.
- [10:17]
A
Yeah. I mean, gratitude is not. Yeah. And, and it's not wishy washy. I know it comes across that way. And I, I, I, I appreciate, you know, prefacing it with that because so much of the gratitude sort of movement can be sort of tone deaf, but I know that's not the case coming from you. And it truly is the way that we should begin because it is just pure. I mean, there's nothing that you and I did to get the lives that we have. You know, we, we both live in, we both live smack dab in the middle of Empire. Right. Like, we are in the middle of the worst humans doing the worst things. You in the uk, me here in the us and it's just pure, pure, pure luck that we are who we are, doing the things that we do. And, and not to say that our lives aren't without challenges and ups and downs and hurdles, but it truly is pure luck. You and I didn't do a goddamn thing to get to live the lives that we do versus the kids in Palestine or Congo or Sudan or in our own cities that are way less fortunate than, than we are. And you know, sometimes my kids sort of get annoyed, but I think they're beginning to appreciate it as they get older and are able to form their Own sort of thoughts and opinions and ideas about the world. I have, I have been known to use that sort of a sentiment. Whenever they start complaining about something, I will sometimes jokingly and sometimes very seriously remind them how lucky, like just truly, absolutely lucky they are. Like, whatever you're complaining about, just shut the. Like that is not worth complaining about. There are so. I know you have real problems, little child, but like, we are so blessed. We live in Manhattan, right? Like, we live like, we have the greatest museums, the greatest theaters, the greatest everything, you know, a stone's throw away from our. We live right next to Central Park. Like there you live in an apartment that has, you know, four walls and you have a bed and you have like all these things. So it's. And sometimes I overdo it and I have to go and apologize for like really, you know, pouring it onto them because they, they also didn't choose this life, right? And so they, they're allowed to have opinions and ideas and they're allowed to not like something, right? But gratitude, man. Like, it's just insane that we get to do what we're doing right now on these electronics having this conversation. And there are people in, in Palestine, in Gaza just being murdered for trying to get food like right at this exact moment. That's just a wild thing to be reminded of. Okay, let's begin this way. I have so much that I want to get to. Tell me about yourself. Tell me about the how you got to this point. Being the damn giver that you are, being the low waste plant based chef that you are being the person that would use the platform that they have to do the things that they're doing. Sometimes those things happen by accident or because of things outside of your family and your upbringing. But a lot of times there are clues in the upbringing, in the family, in the influences and the things that you were exposed to. So if I ask you to go back as far as you want to go back to the beginning, whatever the beginning means for you, what. Who are the people, places and things that shaped you? Who are the who, what, when, where and whys of your life that brought you to this point.
- [13:43]
B
Great question. I think back to the time. Well, I wouldn't be able to think back that far, But I was two weeks old when my father purchased his first two quick service restaurants. So he owned and operated two subways. And I grew up from two weeks old to about 15, 16 years old in these, in these subways. So food was always around and my dad was always experimenting, playing around with the ingredients that he was given. We had a small veg patch in our garden. We grew a few ingredients. You know, both. Both my parents are Italian and French, so I think for them it was really important to growing your own food when possible. I have three other siblings, so it was a house of six. My mother, you know, give. Paint a picture of Saturdays and Sundays. My mom was making these big vats of tomato sauce. My. The first ever food memory I had was making wine with my mother. I think I was 4 or 5. I remember her siphoning the wine from one bucket to the next bucket to ferment even longer. And I remember her asking me to do the same thing. And so, yeah, food and memories of food really play an important role in my life. And I just love food. I love being around the dinner table. I love being around friends and family. Of course, I love feeding people. But that didn't happen until I actually moved out and lived on my own. And I was living in New York City. I was pursuing an acting and modeling career and working paycheck to paycheck. And my. My. My real job or my. My nighttime or day job was. Was working at restaurants and waiting tables and bartending and cooking. And I would. I would live literally paycheck to paycheck, pay my rent. And then I had a few. Few dollars left over to pay for food and ingredients. I'd buy everything I could have that I could get, maybe save some money for my savings, but then cook everything I had until I had no more food, and then I'd shop for more. So this idea of cooking and using up most of the food that I had was kind of integral and part of my journey because I didn't have any other choice. I didn't want to waste food I didn't have. Money didn't come from money. On top of that, I'm constantly reminded of my childhood because we grew up next to a soup kitchen. So there were, you know, people, you know, queuing up for food on. On the way to school. Mom would drop us off, and you'd see 20 or 30 people outside just queuing up across the street, asking for, you know, waiting for their hot meal for the day or. Or just going inside to. To stay warm because it was cold out. So all these little moments, I think, you know, played a really crucial part in my life. And. And, you know, I think they planted seeds in my life. And I think you want with those, right? Those seeds then turn into, you know, a sprout. And that sprout becomes A flower and you know, you, whether, whether you clip it or you let it die, or you just keep it growing, you know, I've decided food was the path and the journey I wanted to take. And social media obviously for me is really important because I, I want to post things that are inspiring and educational and informative. I don't want to be posting, oh, this is my night out with my friends. And like, there's all, there's. I'm not that type of person, you know, and getting drunk and having a good time though, you know, there's a time and place for that. But certainly we're inundated. We live on social media now with, you know, children are born with devices in their hands. How can you be a light? How can you be someone who can inspire and lead the way? I didn't have many heroes in my life growing up or inspirations. I remember my father just saying something similar to this podcast. Do you give a damn? Do you give a damn what you do? And you know, give your best. And I remember just listening to those sort of motivational ideas that my father would instill in me. So things grew quite quickly because I wanted to share and I was leading from a place of like, compassion and caring and wanted to do good. And I noticed that having worked in restaurants, there was or and still is large amounts of food being wasted. And it just took me back to being a child again. Took me back to seeing the food that we grew. We try to use, try to use up everything we had. Seeing the people outside the soup kitchen. Living in New York City, you see people outside on the subways. And so, yeah, that played a really important part to making sure that whatever I do post or what I put online needs to be inspiring and it needs to come from a place of compassion.
- [19:08]
A
That's fantastic. I grew up in, I've got several follow up questions here, but I grew up in a sort of low waist home as well. I'm not sure that that was one of the values as much as it was necessity. We were poor and I. So I have 11 siblings, so there are 12 kids, two parents, and neither of them had. My mom always 12 kids. She always took care of the kids. We were in a very conservative, very, very conservative Christian family. So it's like have a bunch of kids repopulate the earth. So they had a bunch of kids, 12. And so my dad worked and he'd never had great jobs. Like he definitely didn't make anywhere near enough money to have, you know, to be able to Feed and take care of 12 kids. And so low waste was thrust upon us just out of necessity. But that has stuck with me to this day. You will. I mean, I, I, if we ever. And it's very, very. It is so rare that a leftover stays in the fridge long enough that it goes bad or whatever, because it's usually like every day at lunch, I go into the fridge and I take out four different Tupperwares of four different things, and I make something new with it. Like, I would just empty all of them up. And it doesn't even, like, most of the time I, I don't have to do anything to it other than put it on a plate or put it in a pan, reheat it, because it's, it's going to taste good. Right. If it's a pasta dish, you can put almost anything in pasta and it, like, it tastes good. Right. So anyway, yeah, it's interesting that you, so, growing up, I know you said that when you got to the city and you're trying to, like, just survive, you know, low waste also became a part. But in. Correct me if I'm. Correct me if you already shared this in your upbringing story, but was that also a value growing up as well, in your home, or was that more something that you discovered. Yeah, out of, out of necessity. Hey, I don't have a lot of money and, oh, wait, these things taste good together. I don't have to waste things. Was that a value growing up, or did it something you discovered later on?
- [21:18]
B
It's definitely something I discovered later on. I do remember my mom saying, I mean, growing up in the 90s, you hear, don't waste your food. There's children in Africa who are starving. Like, that was, I felt like I saw that on television. They, like, implanted this image of, of starvation in our schools, children starving around the world. And so, yeah, anytime I got close to getting near the, near the bin and was going to scrape my plate off, my mom, you know, she was, don't, don't waste that. I even, I was quite rebellious, even at, like, I remember at age 6 or 7, my dad wanted me to finish my broccoli. And maybe this is like, called the child services. But my dad was like, you're going to stay at the kitchen table until you finish your broccoli. And I was like, bet. So I stayed, I stayed at the kitchen table, and I think I ended up falling asleep at the kitchen table. I think later on, I think I was put in bed and my dad woke up the Next morning, chopped up the broccoli, threw it in like some scrambled eggs and it was like, now you'll eat your broccoli. I was like, oh my gosh. Goodness. Yeah.
- [22:25]
A
So no, I had a few, I had a few of those as well when I didn't want something growing up. And it was, I mean, it was hours of sitting there until I, I ate it. So I'm not sure if I don't think that's, I don't think that's bad parenting. I think that's, I think that's good parenting. I mean, there's obviously a line and my kids, thankfully, they love everything and so I've not had to do that yet. They just sort of eat most everything we throw their way. It's also interesting that you, so you're going for, you're in New York City pursuing the dream, right? Acting, modeling. And obviously, my friend, you've got the, you've got the, the good looks. So not sure why the, the modeling thing never took off faster. But you're in the city. Acting, modeling, trying that out. But instead of continuing down that path or running back to. Oh, wait, did you ever say where your hometown was? Connecticut. That's right. Okay, so you're close to the city, right? Growing up. So instead of, yeah. Continuing to, you know, pursue acting and modeling, you end up, you know, growing this love for food and cooking and helping people figure. Figure this out. What was that process from. From the moment you started enjoying. Yeah. Cooking and not. And trying to reduce waste, like just on your own, no cameras running, just in your apartment or whatever. You trying to figure this out. What was the process to. Then, I mean, now you, like, now you're kind of a big deal. Like you've got cookbooks out and you've got millions of followers and people are again paying attention to what you have to say about vegan food and plant based food and low waste cooking and living. What was that journey like? Because I think a lot of, you know, I ask that as a person who is, you know, growing a platform and trying to share good things with good people and in, in an economy where it's, you know, you've got to be loud, you've got to be so constant with your content, you've got to be so. Yeah, just like out there all the time and you know, and a lot of people on this platform are trying to do good. A lot of people listening to this podcast and that are part of let's Give a Damn, they want to do good and they want to spread good things to as many people as possible. So what was that journey? And obviously every journey is different, so. But what was that journey like for you to go from hey, I'm reducing waste in my own kitchen, no one's watching, to now it's this big thing and lots of eyeballs watching.
- [24:54]
B
I think you have to just back up a little bit because for me, at least I back up a little bit and, and kind of survey what was, you know, given to me or kind of the steps I took to get to where I am. I didn't grow up like you. We didn't grow up with phones in our hands. And I didn't have a cell phone until I was like maybe 18. But then I didn't have social media for a long time either. I think I had Facebook when I was a freshman in college. And then, and then I didn't start Instagram or social media for that matter, and posting content until about almost eight years ago. It was like seven, seven, A little over seven years, seven and a half years ago. So for me it was, it was never. I've always just kind of stayed consistent. I feel in, in my way, I feel, I know there's other people doing it, but I, I just tell myself that I'm the only one who can tell my story and I'm the only one who could do the way, do the things that I do. So I'm gonna just keep, keep the, the, the horse, you know, the horse blinders. The blinders, yeah, the other, the blinders up to put the blinders up and just focus. You know, occasionally you have to look around and see what other people are doing and what, what's happening. But it, you know, in 2020 I started, I gave it, I set myself a goal at the beginning of the year that I wanted to post recipe videos, long format video content on, on YouTube, do one video a month. Um, and I was just like, I just gotta get consistent at doing one recipe video because I want to share more video content. Because before it was just like people pictures I shared, you know, do my Instagram stories, but there was no real video format. I wasn't really utilizing my, my, my talents, I guess I, I, I could say I guess. And it was, it wasn't until like middle of the year where I was posting, you know, monthly content that I started posting recipe videos on, you know, on my phone, short form video. And that was when reels was introduced in like the summer of 2020, I think it was, and it could have been 2019. Actually, or it was 2020. And from that moment, Instagram, I received a notification and like emails from Meta and they were like, we're going to platform your videos. We're going to be. There's used to be a feature tab next to your name. The handle said featured. And I was like, what's this? What is it? What does that mean? You know, I'm. My wife is checking. She's like, yeah, it says it for me too. Like you says that you're featured. I was like, I have no idea what that means. And at the time it was like I was getting 20,000 views on a recipe video. I'm like, I've never seen 20,000 views before. And then I'd wake up the next morning and I have 30,000 new followers. I'm like, what the fuck?
- [27:46]
A
Great.
- [27:46]
B
Cool. So for like the next five months, I'm gonna post a recipe video every single day. And I just stayed so consistent at it that, yeah, it. They said I was one of the first people to post recipe videos on Meta. So I was like, great, I'm just gonna roll with that. And that's great. And yeah, but constantly just keeping the blinders on because, yeah, it's the beast that we feed that algorithm and like this, this company, this billion dollar company that we, that we feed content to in our time and our energy. Um, but I like to think that they work for me and I don't work for it. Um, so I, I post when I want to post and if I have something to say, I'll post what I want to say. So.
- [28:33]
A
Yeah, yeah. Have you, just from a content perspective, have you noticed. And we're going to talk more about Palestine here in a bit, but in the last couple years, as you're posting more content that for certain people it is, it is losing them in the algorithm. They're getting, they're getting, you know. Yeah, they're just getting lost because they're speaking up about certain things. Have you noticed that on your platforms or have you been able to stay pretty, you know? Yeah. Has the growth continued? Because you're also talking about other things that people are interested in outside of what's happening in Gaza. Does that make sense? Like. Yeah. How's, how's the growth been for you the last couple of years? Because for a lot of folks it's been terrible and they are sort of lost in the shadows. How's it been for you?
- [29:28]
B
Oh, for me, I mean, it's such a, it's a, it's. I'm, I feel Torn. Emotionally torn between. Sorry, let me, let me rephrase that. I feel conflicted about this because here I am speaking up about an issue that's happening, and on the back end of that, I'm receiving more people coming to my channel who are watching what I say, what I do, which, which was never my, My intention. I felt called upon to act in this way. No one asked me to do it. No one, no one said anything. Which is freaking crazy. That. No, maybe because I. Then I spoke, you know, I was speaking up, but, you know, back in 2023, no one was asking me to say anything. No one spoke up. No one said, hey, are you going to say anything? But when it was about Ukraine, everyone was coming at me going, why haven't you spoken about Ukraine? It's like, okay, so feels strange and odd. And yeah, I've lost followers because I've spoken up. I check my data like everyone else does, is check my insights and it's, you know, I'm. I'm losing 30,000 followers a month, which is, which is, which is, I think, quite crazy. But then I'm gaining, you know, around 100,000amonth. So, you know, there's that, there's that, that tug of war between gaining and losing. But in the end, like, if I had 5 followers vs whatever, how many followers I have now, it. To me, what I'm trying to say is like, I care. I care that I'm using my platform and speaking up about an issue that is deep in my heart that I feel that I need to. Need to speak up about and hoping, hoping, just wishing that if one person sees that and they can make a difference. It goes back to why I started speaking up or standing or posting recipe content or video content and starting an Instagram page for that matter, to inspire, to create change, to be informative and make it educational. You know, I have to do my research. I can't just be blurting out anything like we all do. We have to learn. And there's a lot of unlearning in this as well. So it's a, it's a tug of war between. Is, am I going to say something that's going to lose me a lot of flowers? I don't think about that in that. In that case, and maybe that's why it's been successful for me, that I just think about, how can I make this in my own. How can I put my own twist in on this?
- [32:17]
A
Yeah. And ultimately, what's the right thing to do here? You know, regardless of the Follower situation. Like these followers is such a dumb, it's such a dumb thing anyway. Like again these people can like with a click of a button they cannot be a follower. So that's like what's the buy in here? You know, like it's not that big of a deal versus like what did I, when that thing happened in the world, what, what did I do? How did I react? Did I do the right thing? Like the followers, the whatever else. Like did I do the right thing? That's ultimately, you know, what it comes down to. I, I, I want to talk about the, yeah, the journey, your journey to vegan plant based low waste sort of. We already talked a little bit about the low waste sort of stuff but we have a lot more to get into there. But like, yeah, how did you become. And I have one question before you start, I have one additional question about eleven Madison Park. But how, how, how is, how did your journey happen? You know, like for, for I just little, little context so that we can interact on. This is, you know, 10 years ago, 11 years ago we became vegetarian. A lot of it was watching documentaries, just, just, just becoming aware. We were never huge animal product consumers before. Like it wasn't something that we like had to have but then it was like, oh shit, like we've got to get rid of this. So first it was vegetarian and then seven years ago we became vegan. And there's literally no circumstance on the planet where that changes for us. Like it's so deep in our convictions now, like the reasons why we do it that like I just don't see a scenario. We have a lot of friends that have gone from being vegan to like going back and no, well, a little judgment but no judgment there. Everybody has their reasons, everybody's figuring stuff out, right. Like we've got to figure stuff out on our own but like there's just no situation where that changes for us. And so it's a, it's a big part of our lives now. So I'd love to hear your journey as well. But before you've obviously seen the news of eleven Madison park and for those that don't know, I asked Max. Well for a lot of reasons about eleven Madison park, it's one of the most well known was plant based restaurants on the planet and you worked there as a line cook. Some of your content was shot in that restaurant and those were very interesting videos to watch. Yeah, you obviously saw the news. They're going to start introducing animal products again. Some meat, some things here and there and beyond the. Beyond the. That act. The act of them reintroducing some meat. Like, what did you think of Daniel's, like, reasoning the statement he put out, which I thought was, well, I won't tell you what I thought. I want to hear you first so I don't cloud your. Your. Your reaction.
- [35:09]
B
Yeah, I. Food is food. I get that. There's. There's people who are strong, have. Hold a strong stance for animal rights and. And for the planet, and they eat a certain way for, you know, a cause that is close and dear to their heart. From. For myself, I was, you know, I. I came to veganism. I don't even consider myself vegan because I don't like using the word.
- [35:40]
A
I was gonna ask you about that because I can't. I can't find anywhere on your website. I was like, he always says plant based. Plant based, plant based. And never uses the word vegan. So I'm glad you're explaining that.
- [35:48]
B
I'm almost ready to remove plant based as well, because I want to just normalize. What I eat is. It's food. It literally is food. I mean, going back to, like, the 15, 1600s, the most luxurious thing you can eat was vegetables. So no one was, you know, so I. I think there's this. We've. We've obviously have. Have come a long way since then, but I. For me, it. Again, food is food. And if it's food for you, great. I don't like bombarding people with what they should eat. I like sharing how people can cook, and I like sharing how people can utilize the whole ingredient. I think the purpose why I went into cooking with vegetables and plants in the first place is, yeah, my health. I wanted to look after my health, but it was also a cost. A cost thing. Using up the whole ingredient. I can get more out of this ingredient than anything else. If I buy a head of broccoli, if it's, you know, a pound of dollar for a head of broccoli, most people are using the florets and they're chucking away the stem. Yep, there's half of your produce in the bin. So I was using up. You know, I can get two meals out of that. So it's being. It's. Oh, I wanted to say something about the billionaires, and we shouldn't be. We shouldn't go after one another. And, like, you're not vegan. No, I am vegan, but I have this. And it's like, who gives a. Let's tax the rich. Let's. Let's tear down this. The billionaires, you know, it takes around 17 days, I think, to count to a million. It takes 32 years to count to a billion. So you can see the disparity between just those two. Just those two numbers that we, we idolize. Being a millionaire and being a billionaire. It's like, no, there's a huge gap between these 2 billion. In regards to Daniel Hume and Eleven Madison park, it was such a great experience having spent time in the kitchen and working on the line and being able to video the day in the life of a line cook there, which was amazing. And I'm extremely grateful that they gave me that opportunity to do that. I think I read between the lines there of that statement.
- [38:21]
A
Sure.
- [38:22]
B
And I just re. I just realized, look, they were never a plant based restaurant to begin with. You know, and if you read Unreasonable Hospitality, which features Eleven Madison park and the story and obviously like. And you listen to Daniel hum speak about the restaurant, it's a restaurant that will continue to change and evolve over time. One of the great things that came from going plant based is that they also opened up a Rethink Food, which is also a charity that gives food to those in need. So I think there's like huge positives that came from this. And I think the job of a restaurant is to ultimately survive, is to survive and pay your staff a fair living wage and to provide an experience. And they're all about experience. So on one hand, I believe that, yes, cooking with plants, everyone can eat vegetables. Not everyone can eat, you know, meat products. But I understand their reasoning and I wish them the best.
- [39:35]
A
Yeah, I thank you for that response. I land somewhere. Not the US but I land somewhere. It really depends on where.
- [39:44]
B
Do you land on this?
- [39:45]
A
Yeah, where? Oh, thank you. Thank you for asking. No, I feel you. I really do. I, I feel you. Because even, even with them now being in a restaurant that is not 100pl, I also appreciate you saying they were never a, you know, this was never a plant based endeavor. Like they used to serve like a ton of meat and then they went plant based. And it's. Yeah, if you know anything about Daniel, like, it's. He's an experienced guy and, and rightfully so. You're pointing out that this thing will continue to evolve. At the very least, what. The four years that they were completely plant based, what that did on top of everything you shared is created room for conversation about this. I think it probably influenced a lot more restaurants to try that out, to become fully or partial or like. Or Mostly, you know, plant based. So it opened up the conversation. I mean he was on every talk show. He was, there were articles in every news, every major news platform about this. And so it did give those of us that are trying to push in various ways, you know, plant based living and low waste and here are the benefits and all that. It gave us an opportunity to do that in a greater way. And because of how gracious you were in your response, I don't feel the need to share the, the negative side of, of what I was going to say. Like it did, it did piss me off. But I also understand that like, yeah, I like what you pointed out too just now. The, the behind the curtain thing is if they are this well known restaurant that is doing like, part of me says just shut your doors, but that's a impractical and unkind way to think. They are employing dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of employees. They are creating work for so many people. So the easy thing to say is, yeah, shut it all down. Shut Amazon down, shut, shut Walmart down. Shut all these destructive, you know, people in places down. Not that I'm comparing Amazon and eleven Madison park. But like it's easy to say whenever we see something that we don't like or that isn't, you know, might change their mind on something or do something that isn't helpful, it's easy to say just shut it down. But there's real people behind this. There are real, you know, yeah. Livelihoods that are tied up in 11 Madison Park. And so thank you for your very gracious response. And I think, I think that's, you know, your whole platform is, you pointed it out a few minutes ago and you're sort of reiterating it in your response to even the 11 Madison park news is like you're more about showing people a different and better way of living. You're not telling people, don't, don't do this and don't be this way and you're awful if you do do this right. And I have other, many other activist friends in the animal rights and in the climate space that are very heavy handed and I don't, these are very heavy handed issues. These are big issues. Like the way that we treat animals, the way that we treat our planet. That's a very, very, very big deal. Like we should, there are times to get fucking like pissed off about it.
- [43:08]
B
Yeah.
- [43:08]
A
But your platform, I would argue even with the growth that you've experienced, the kind of the, the look under the hood that you gave us on your, like, followers while speaking up about big things is that there's an argument to be made for, hey, instead of me making you feel utterly terrible about something that you're doing or not doing, let me show you a better way. Let me show you what you can do with vegetables. And not just vegetables. All the things that you end up throwing away because you don't think they're sort of usable like that. I think you're a living example of what we can do to lay off the guilt and really emphasize, like, hey, I think this is a better way. You ultimately have to do what you got to do. But, like, I think this is a better way, and let me show you in a very joyful, inclusive, you know, welcome to the table sort of way, a better life. Do you feel like that is your. Have I. Have I sort of. Yeah. Have I described your platform? Is that how you feel about the content you make? Because I could name other people that are in your space that I'm like, I love their content. I love what they stand. But, like, holy shit, you're making everybody and their grandmother feel bad about the way that they're living. And are you actually, like, are you actually convincing people to come over in the way that you're making content, living your life?
- [44:32]
B
Well, I've never had anyone say something so close to what it is that I do, I guess, and how I feel that I center my focal point, you know, how what is, what is it? And it feels very strange to even think about it or even put it into words. I just continue to really kind of just focus on how. How is it going to be helpful if I'm shouting into this phone screen? Yeah, how is that going to be helpful? And I think we should all center our frustration and we should all be punching up. We shouldn't be pointing the finger at one another.
- [45:19]
A
We're.
- [45:20]
B
We should be really going at our government, our officials, the people that we elected into our offices to run our respective countries and ask for better, ask for more. So, yeah, I don't think there's a. There's. Oh, my goodness, you used this oat milk. Oh, my God. You're using cashew butter. Oh, my God, you're using coconut milk. You know, you're wasting food. I don't. I don't go after people. I have friends who say they. They can't invite me to go over to their house to eat because they're afraid of what I might see. And I'm like, do I shame anyone? That is your perception.
- [46:04]
A
Yeah.
- [46:05]
B
Flip that around and think about, okay, what can I do to improve or. But Max, you know, so if I have friends that are listening, please invite me over because I love cooking. But please, I'd like to, I'd like to enjoy a meal too, to be cooked for. So, yeah, I think we should be centering our frustration and anger in a different way, in a different light versus at one another, because that's not going to solve anything.
- [46:33]
A
It's such a great, it's such a great point and a great reminder. Like, what you just described is exact, exactly what capitalism wants to do to us.
- [46:42]
B
Yeah.
- [46:43]
A
Like, you have a few, like, nasty. Nasty, that's just too kind of a word for them. Nasty. Politicians and billionaires and sent to millionaires and all these people at the top and they're just doing whatever the they want. They are doing whatever they want. You have Mark Zuckerberg getting on his super yacht, going to, going to Bezos's wedding. This guy who's like been championing the climate. Da, da, da, da. And he's like, just, you know, they're doing whatever they want at their, like, upper echelon. And they have us all down here, all of us down here just yelling at each other, just screaming because none of us are, none of us are making enough money. We're not, like, we can't take holidays without thinking about all the money that we're spending resting. We can't take time off work because we got, I got three kids, right, like in there, like, they eat, they eat so much and they need new shoes like every three. Like, I got too much to worry about down here. And so we're just yelling at each other, making each other feel God awful about the decisions we're making when most of the time we're just surviving or trying to anyway.
- [47:54]
B
That's why I think coming together as a collective community and demanding more expect, you know, demanding more and asking for more and speaking up and standing up is like the ultimate. Like, that is a tool that we've been given and we're not really executing it properly. I think, I think everything that's happening in Palestine is like this. The light bulb has like been switched on. I think they're like, now there's a spotlight, like, wait a second. That's connected to this 100%. And you're like, wait a second. I feel sorry for like just segueing
- [48:30]
A
into this already into it.
- [48:33]
B
I live here in the uk. I pay taxes in the UK and I pay taxes in the US I pay taxes in both these countries that are facilitating in a genocide, that are paying to drop bombs on children, I need to be speaking up. I need to be speaking up twice as loud because my money that I hope would go into public services, you know, providing food to children or creating accessible travel for everyone, things like this. But no, we'll send millions of dollars and millions of pounds and send you bombs and we'll have people come and work here at the RAF base here in the UK or, you know, like, what are we. What are we doing? Why are we. So I think, I think we need to be. Don't yell at your neighbor. Make friends with your neighbor. But then let's collectively work together to demand better. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm fingers crossed. I think Mom Donnie is going to get in. So we'll see. We'll see what happens when the shift and the change comes because it's coming and our eyes, we're opening up our eyes. Our. Our heads are opening up and we're going, wow, I feel that. Do you feel that way?
- [49:48]
A
I really do. Some days I don't. And those are very frustrating days where I just feel. I just feel awful. And I feel awful anyway every day just knowing what, what my. Our tax dollars are paying for. The things that I wish that I could literally stop and change right now that are happening in the world, and I can't because again, the. They have figured it out so that we're fighting amongst each other and we can't make any meaningful change. Like right now it's all this, like, it's all long game. But I totally feel that way. I did an event back in May with Dr. Gabor Mate and Chris Hedges here in New York. Sold out event. And it was called. And I did it with Aaron Mate, God, war son and a friend of mine. And it was called Palestine. The moral issue of our time. Now, I would. There are many other issues that could kind of be called that. Fill in the blank. The moral issue of our time. I wish it was like, I wish it was Sudan. I wish it was Congo. I wish it was homelessness. I wish it was, you know, a rapist, being a president for the second time, and maybe third. The moral issue of our time. It could be any of these. There are so many moral issues of our time, but for some reason, there's only one number one that fits in that category, and it's Palestine. Something about what's happening right now. And again, this is not new. This did not like f. Ck your October 7th talking points. This was happening way before October 7th. Over 200 Palestinians were killed the day before October 7th, on October 6th. So like fuck all of that. There's been happening for 77 years. But for some reason right now, October 7, what happened as an act of resistance that ignited something, that ignited something that can never ever, ever, ever, ever again be contained. There is no future where Israel gets to continue. I don't know what happens to Israel in the future and I'll keep quiet on what I think should happen. But there's no. But there's definitely no future where they get to ever claim moral superiority, self defense, blah, blah, blah. Like the entire world, except for a few empire countries, the entire planet is against Israel now. That wasn't the case before. They were like, ah, how do we feel about Israel? How do we feel about what they're doing to Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza? There was like a lot of like hemming and hawing in, in boardrooms and in, in Senate chambers and whatever. But now again, except for these couple, these few empire states and countries, yeah, there's something happening that can never be contained. I've never been more sure in my life that Palestine will be free.
- [52:41]
B
Oh my goodness, yes. From the holy 100%. I mean, I, I sometimes have these, these moments of daydreaming, like, what will it look like the day, the hour after everything's all said and done? Like, what, what is that going to look like when we can go when, when there is a free Palestine, what's that going to look like? And you're seeing people hit the streets. Over 500,000 Israelis hit the streets in Tel Aviv and they're saying, you know, some of their placards are saying end the genocide and stop killing and all these things. But they want to go back. And I know that's like, oh, that's great. You want to end the genocide, great. They want to go back to a time where everyone loved Israel and everyone can go to Tel Aviv and they can go get on their flight to get to the Maldives or to get to Greece and not be on a boat. And people are saying, no, get the hell out of here. You know, they want to go back to a time where things were just hush, hush, you know, but things, things are changing now.
- [53:50]
A
Yeah.
- [53:50]
B
And look, you, you, you, you voted for these people to be in your in power, in this, in, in those ranks. And this is what's going to happen. I'm not gonna say anymore. But what you said was brilliant.
- [54:04]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, no, yeah, we could get into a lot of trouble. Well, I don't know, whatever this is, this is a podcast. Nobody's paying me or us to be here, so. But no, no, no. I think I've never been more sure in my life. And I say that while working the last two and a half years, I have worked behind the scenes with like 90% of my work has been around getting aid to Gaza. I have, you know, been working behind the scenes with Palestinians. One of my good friends who I always shout out because he's a fucking hero, Hani Al Madhoon, who works at UNRE usa, who also co founded Gaza Soup Kitchen. His brother, Chef Mahmoud was killed. Hanny's lost three of his siblings and he's lost over 150 family members. And yet still every single day. I mean, literally this, he will, he will message in our, you know, in our signal chat, you know, another, another family member was killed, another family member was killed, Another family member was killed. And I'm like, how the fuck do you go on? Like, how do you keep going? And every single day he gets up to his paid and unpaid job. Paid unreal USA, unpaid. At Gaza soup kitchen works 2 full time jobs every day raising money for these organizations. And so at the same time that all of these, like, this heartache behind the scenes is happening where just I'm getting, every single day, I'm getting messages, you know, from Motors, Aziza and all these other people. This person's, this person's dead, this person lost their house, this person their kids that. Like, even though all that's happening, I still am never been more sure that Palestine will be free. And I love your angle. I think part of the reason why people are resonating, Max, is because food is everything, right? Like people don't need. You don't, you don't have to have a house, you don't have to have clothes, you don't have to have a lot of things. We can go without so many things. We can only go days without food.
- [56:00]
B
Yeah, days.
- [56:01]
A
And then we're, then we're gone. We could be beyond the point of no return. Like, you get to this point, which we're seeing with so many Palestinians right now, like they're so far starved by the state of Israel and emaciated that like, you can't, without medical, you can't just like start stuffing food down their throats. Like they're beyond food. They're now their bodies are shutting down. And so that may be why I think people are connecting so much with your Content. The, the really poignant videos that you make where you're making food but, like, nothing's there and you're making, you know, you're cooking something, but nothing's there, and you're mixing something, but nothing's there. It's really powerful because all of us, all of us that are sane and not out of our goddamn minds and are thinking sort of semi clearly. Look at that. And they're like, holy. Like, I, I haven't eaten anything today. I don't usually eat until early afternoon. But like, once I eat, I eat, you know, three, three more meals during the day before I fall asleep. Like, I eat every day and I don't think about it. I go and I swipe my card and I buy groceries and they're in my fridge and I make food. And it's not. Never a thought about, like, what's happening in your video where you're, you're mixing a bowl of nothing, right? What's been your experience making content like that and, and really standing up for Palestine? Like, what have you heard from Palestinians about your. No, I mean, fine, what have you heard from, from our Jewish allies? What have you heard from non Jews and non Muslims and non Arabs? But like, specifically, what have you heard from Palestinians about the content that you make and the way that you're standing up for what's happening in Gaza?
- [57:36]
B
It's been hugely heartwarming and positive with the occasional death threats. It's so crazy that I'm on a hunger strike and you want me to die. You know, this is crazy. Or if I'm cooking with a Palestinian chef, Fadi Khattan, who's a Palestinian chef, has a restaurant in, in London and, and as well as in Toronto. And I've had people say, I, I hope you fall on that knife that you cooked with the palace. It's like, what the hell? You know, it's like right back. I hope you have a great day.
- [58:15]
A
Yeah.
- [58:16]
B
Because, like, what, what else can you say, say or do is going to really affect me? What really affects me is that when I, I receive messages underneath my videos or, or dms that say, my family's starving, please help. My family's serving, Please help. I have three children. Please help. And I, and I stay in contact with people who are currently in, in Gaza right now. I'm like, is there anything I can do, please? Like, just if you need a, you want to chat, you want to have a conversation, like, make it feel human, right? I don't, I don't. They don't. Want to feel. And what I. From my knowledge, they want to feel like they're this, this, like they're being a victim, that they're like, oh, we're here, we're going to rub your back. But, like, when things are over, see you later. No, like, these are going to be friends for a lifetime now. And I, and I. And I've connected with a few, few, few Palestinians out of, out of Palestine, but also in, in Gaza now. And I stay in contact with them and, you know, they're just, thank you so much. And it's so positive and uplifting. And yeah, food is that element that connects us all together. It doesn't matter where you're from, who you are, what your race, gender, what your political views are. It doesn't matter. You. We all connect on that same level. It's the one I believe is the one thing that we all can, can, can understand about each other. I can show you something about cooking pasta, which you said is one of your favorite foods, before getting on the call. You know, I can show you something that you might not have ever seen before or heard of or a technique or a trick and that. And I feel like that is, that's. That's what it's all about. You know, everyone has different tastes, but I think food is. Food is a huge, huge driver to bringing people closer and bringing people together. And it's like, so ingrained in their, in their culture. So it's really important that when I did speak up, when I did say something, it just resonated. So it just like, it was like a lightning bolt came down and struck me, and it was like, you need to say something. And of course, I have these blinders on, so I'm not thinking about anything else, and I'm not looking at. To see what other people are saying. But I felt like, as a chef and as a human, seeing food being weaponized wasn't anything I ever want to see. And to witness, I never want to see this witness again. I never want to see food being used as a weapon of war. So that was like. I told my wife, Venetia, I said, venetia, I'm going on a hunger strike. She's like, when I'm like, tomorrow morning. So that was in the evening. She was, like, freaking out. She's like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, don't do anything. It's totally like, it's fine. You don't need to do anything. Just cook your own food. You don't need to join me. But making those videos every single day was. I had so much energy, even though I didn't have any food, because I felt like I'm onto something. I'm. I'm. I'm really taking a hard, strong stance on this, and it's going to ruffle some feathers, and there's going to be people who are appreciative, but then there's going to be people who are going to be really pissed off because here's someone who has a platform and they're speaking on. On a. On a topic. You're not. You're not, you know, you're not Muslim. You're not from the Middle East. You're not from here. What are you doing? What are you talking about? Like, get out of our conversation. This doesn't pertain you, you know, but I'm a human and I pay taxes in both countries. So, yeah, I can weigh in on this, and I'm going to have a view. So, I mean, I am going to speak up about this, about this situation.
- [62:04]
A
You can weigh in double the amount that we can weigh in because your money is doubly going to genocide. I'm glad you brought up the hunger strike, because that was literally the next question I was going to bring up. How long were you able to do it for? And what was that? I know you shared like that emotionally, like, you weren't even, you know, hungry, but, like, what was the reaction that you got online and did it. Did it influence. There are safe ways to do hunger strikes. There are unsafe ways to do hunger strikes. And ultimately, I think what. I guess I want to hear your experience, because some people. The reaction that I've gotten, not to your hunger strike, but to hunger strikes in general during the last couple of years is like. And this has not been my sentiment at all. I'm fully supportive, but, like, a lot of the. A lot of the reaction is like, what do you. What are you actually accomplishing? Like, unless, like, you're not actually going to make it until. You're not going to actually make it until Palestine is free. Like, you would die. So, like, what. What are you actually trying to accomplish and communicate here? So, Max, what were you trying to accomplish and communicate with your hunger strike?
- [63:11]
B
I was trying to accomplish a free. A free Palestine. Yeah, that was like. That was the goal. Yeah. It could have been over on day two, and I would have been, oh, great. I went, you know, went two days without, you know, there. You would have never. You know, there's no way of telling, but I was going to go as far as I could and I was going to push it as far as I could. I was grateful that I, I ended up going six full days of no food. I had water, I had, you know, I was drinking herbal tea. I had, you know, black coffee in the morning. But other than that it was just pure. Like I was running on like my reserves and like just, I had this energy in me that was just like, keep effing going.
- [63:55]
A
Yeah.
- [63:56]
B
I felt at day five, I was, I thought I can go another five days. Like this is. I'm feeling good and I'm feeling positive because I'm posting these videos, sharing what's happening. I'm holding some placards outside of supermarkets, so I'll rewind a little bit. I didn't really think this through.
- [64:16]
A
Yeah, you said, you said you, you said you decided the night before. So I gathered that.
- [64:20]
B
I didn't really think this through. I didn't think about, you know, I should have consulted with the doctor first. I felt physically healthy to, to, to jump into this. But like meanwhile on my hunger strike, I was just like typing, doing, you know, self medicating and just chatting with the wmd. Just like, uh, what do I do on a hunger strike? You know, So I was just making sure that I was staying hydrated. Um, I ended up taking like these electrolytes in my water to stay hydrated. Sometimes I put some salt in some water. But yeah, I was saying hydrated, but creating those videos. The, the plan, the plan was using what I have and I said this earlier, using what I'm given and using what I have and speaking. And I'm the only one who can share this story through own and through my own voice through what I know. I know food. I'm a chef, I'm an author. I'm creating content. I'm a content creator too. I need to speak to those people and ask and demand that they speak up. Because when we're all. And this goes back to that collective community that I was speaking about, if we're all speaking up together, none of us lose. On, on the first day that I announced, it was probably that evening or the next morning that I announced I was, I'm on a hunger strike. This is day one. I received emails from clients that said, we've changed directions, we're not going to go forward with this project anymore. Like, I was like, literally with like, they're sending the contract tomorrow type deals where I'm ready to sign the line and the client is saying no we're going in a different direction. I'm like, oh, wow.
- [66:05]
A
Yeah. I wonder, I wonder why.
- [66:07]
B
Yeah. I was like, huh? Why? Yeah. And I, I think in that moment, I could have toned it down or I could double down and press forward. So I'm like this, I'm pressing forward. You know, I don't, I don't work for you. You work for, you know, we're working together in this. And it's. I'm not just like, you're not going to use me as just this face and an image and a page and a len. You know, the Instagram page to say, buy this new product. You know, like, this. This isn't, this isn't how I want to approach this. But in the planning and the accomplish, I'm going to get to what we accomplished because I think that's really important because I, I believe we did and I believe we're continuing where there's, There's. There is a. There is something happening. The speaking up to chefs, asking them to say something kind of like, kind of fell on its face. Like, I. The only people to speak up. I saw a few women and gotta love the women, because it's usually women who are speaking up always. Gosh, white men suck. And you have these white men who have millions of followers and they're like, you know, love this. And you're like, come on, say something else. Speak about something else. I had. There was one content creator who, who reposted a hummus video, you know, him making hummus, but nothing. It was a silent video. And all his other videos were him, you know, speaking in. Into the camera. And like, now you're, you're not saying anything now. You're not saying, but you're going to show this hummus recipe video. And you, you know, think in the comment, in the caption, it said free Palestine at one point. But I'm like, could you, could you, could you say more? Come on. Each their own. Going to the supermarkets outside the supermarkets with these placards that said, like, I'm on day two. I'm on day four of my hunger strike. And on day four, it was the anniversary of the Nakba. So, like, I shared what was happening then in front of these supermarkets because what we are calling for was removing is really goods from the supermarket shelves. We vote with our money. I know that sounds strange, but we vote with our money. When we go to the supermarket and we buy food, we're buying food from not just the supermarket, but we're buying food from wherever that Food arrived from that. The company, that brand, the produce that arrives from Israel.
- [68:40]
A
We.
- [68:40]
B
We vote with our money. So I was encouraging people to not buy Israeli goods or products. Boycotts, Sabra, Hummus and all the other Israeli brands. But also taking my lead from BDS and seeing what other brands on that list you have like burger King and McDonald's and Pizza Hut and Domino's. And I don't know if I said Domino's twice, but Domino's again. Boycott these people. Because they're literally like. They'll post pictures and they'll say, like, Domino's loves idf. You're like, what the fuck?
- [69:11]
A
Fuck this.
- [69:12]
B
I'm not doing Domino. Domino's also shitty pizza. Great. When you're terrible, it's shitty fucking pizza. Don't. Don't eat that stuff. Don't, please. So the aim. Those were like, clear missions and clear actions that people could take, because that felt like, okay, great, I'm on this hunger strike, but what can people do? Now, I'm not encouraging you to go on a hunger strike, but what can you do? And some of them were like, call your supermarkets. Ask them to remove it. And I was getting on calls with all these supermarkets asking them to remove Israeli goods and what their plans are. And, oh, we don't have a stance on that yet. Which was baffling because now we're 18 months into this. When I went on hunger strike, no one's called or you don't have even a policy in place. So that was great. And because of that, towards the end of my hunger strike, Co Op, which is a supermarket in the UK, they have around 250 locations across the UK, they've decided to remove Israeli goods and products from their shelves. And from people that I've spoken to, it was like. Because you were calling on supermarkets to remove this. So I'm like, that's incredible. Also, the CEO of Co Op is Palestinian. So I felt like she had also this. That moral. That moral litmus test of like, oh, yeah, I am Palestinian, and why do I have Israeli goods on my shelves? Let's get them off. So I think it was a little bit of pressure that we built and put on. And I called one supermarket. I'll tell you this quick story. The supermarket I called was Tesco's. And I got on a call and the guy was so grumpy and outraged. I felt like. I don't know why. I'm. Hello, James. Nice to hear from you. I have this quick question. What are your views and stance on Palestine and. And do you think Tesco's will remove Israeli goods from their shelves? Hold on. Like, all upset. I mean, hey, maybe. Maybe he's a Zionist. Who knows? But I felt in that moment to. I, I was on a call, we were going back and forth, and I think he loved the bit of, like, the tug of war that we were having, because I was on that call for about 20 minutes with him. And at the end, I said, how do I know if we're going to remove. If Israeli goods are going to be removed on the shelves? He says, well, if enough people call, then we'll take some action and you'll, You'll. You'll find out. You'll find. I said, how I find out? He says, when you come in and shop at Tesco. I said, I'm not going into Tesco. I. I can't. Like, no. He's like, well, then you won't find out. I was like, okay, buddy. I said, but you told me that enough people, if enough people call, they will potentially remove it. Yes. I said, what's that number? And he couldn't give me a number. He says, I don't have a number to give you. I said, this is customer service, right? Yes, I said, and there's not a number I can call customer service? He's like, no, because I had to just. I kept dialing, you know, press one for this, press two for this. And finally I got to someone. It was a bunch of different numbers to press, but then I find out that there's a WhatsApp number that you can chat right to. So told all my followers did a video on this, and they had. I mean, it was thousands and thousands and thousands of text messages because I was getting emails from people, DMS from
- [72:32]
A
people,
- [72:35]
B
and I think less than a week or two weeks later, they had a meeting. Tesco's. It was, like, announced. Tesco's is having an emergency meeting to boycott. Potentially boycott is really good. I don't think there's been any change because I think some of their investors high up in Tesco are Israeli. So. But something. Something's happening. And I think this is going back to, like, speaking up and saying something and, and using that power that we have, which is our voice, you know, potentially our platforms and. And our money.
- [73:09]
A
No, that story was perfect. And I'm seeing a couple themes from our conversation which will begin to. You've been so gracious with your time. We'll begin to wrap up here. But one of the themes is just, do I know this is. It's so simple. And it's so like cliche to say, but like do the right thing. Like do the right thing. Like making a phone call is so simple. What you, your initial call was 20 minutes. Even. Even in the grand scheme of all of life, a six day hunger strike is nothing. Sitting in front of a grocery store is nothing. Going to find their. What's the WhatsApp number? And getting as many people as possible. Sure, because of your platform you can get thousands of people, but any person can get a hundred people they know a hundred people that they can text and say Texas number right now and say get rid of the Israeli products. And this goes for whatever this is. This is beyond the genocide in Gaza. This is every, every issue. Like whatever it is that you're you, that you care about, stop looking in the mirror and saying, what the can I do? Like, I can't do anything. It's just me. Like, just do something. So that's one of the sort of big themes I even got from.
- [74:28]
B
Go ahead.
- [74:29]
A
Yeah, just give a damn.
- [74:31]
B
God damn. Just give a damn.
- [74:34]
A
Give a damn. No, that's literally what I've devoted the last eight years of my life to. Well, beyond that. I've, I've been, I've been giving a damn since I was a kid. It was like baked into, baked into me. But like, it's what I'm going to, it's what I'm going to continue to do for the rest of my life. Because I, like, I can't think of anything more worthy than just to remind people that like, you have agency to start giving a damn right now. Like, it doesn't have to be big, it doesn't have to be huge. Doesn't be thought out. Like, don't come up with some strategy for giving a damn. Just start doing it and yes, get better at it, get more strategic. Maybe figure out if, if it needs to become a project or a group or a. Not like whatever it is, but right now, just fucking start.
- [75:18]
B
Everyone has their own way to contribute to this, this call, to this, this action. Everyone can step up in their own way. You don't need to grow millions of followers and then speak up. You probably not get there and you probably wouldn't be cool if you didn't say anything before. For you, then I think caring is cool. You know, people used to get, you know, growing up in the 90s, caring about something. I remember going to school and getting picked on and teased because I cared about, you know, playing sports or I cared about a science project. You Know, I cared about these things and I was teased and made fun of for, for caring, but because I felt I had passion to do something. But fuck them, you know? Absolutely. Just care about what you're doing, and it doesn't matter what it might be. It might be just, you know, having a Palestinian flag in your background on your zoom calls, or it might be wearing a keffiyeh when you go walking around, or it might be just sticking a sticker on something or going into the supermarket and putting, you know, getting boycott stickers and putting them on is really. Is really goods in the supermarket. Texting email, there's so many things. Contact your MP or your local officials email. There's templates that you can literally copy and paste and send it to their offices, ask them to speak up. There's so many things we can do. It's so. I find it really easy. I mean, I've set this goal. I have it in my. What do I call this notebook. Every day I go in there and I'm like, what are my things to do today? And I have this reminder. One big action and one small action every day. What's one big thing that I could do that's gonna lead to something in the future? What's one small thing, too, that will make an impact? So if I can remind myself every day that there's one big thing that I can do that, like, you know, taking that next step, and there's also that one small action that I could do every single day. It might just be writing to my family in a WhatsApp group and just going free Palestine, you know?
- [77:26]
A
Yeah.
- [77:26]
B
You know, to your, To. To your family members. You know, I have, I have family that are coming, coming to see me soon, and sadly, my dad's a Trump supporter, so I'm ready to have conversations with him and make him see the light. You don't need this person in your life, you know, so hopefully, like, there's these small things that we can do every single day that will lead to a bigger impact.
- [77:50]
A
We, we both, we both share the Trump supporting parents. Then I wish you the best of luck with, with. With having those conversations with him all these years into the Trump regime. This is my last observation from our conversation. I want to see if you sort of agree. I assume you will. But one of the things from all the things that you've shared, from all the things that you care about and the things that we mutually, you know, together care about, it, it's, it's all about, I think, all the things that we've discussed are all about reducing harm caused to people, plants, not plants, but you know, people, animals, the planet. It's, it's about whether it's Palestine or plant based living or you know, reducing waste. This is all about like, I think our job. Like for me one of the greatest outcomes of a damn giving life is that we are reducing harm caused around us. And I don't see a greater. We can't eliminate it. Like certain things we can eliminate the harm caused but most of the time it's like these are, these things are. These systems and structures are so big and they're going to outlive us, sadly, these evil structures and systems that capitalism and empire have put in place. But we can reduce the amount of harm caused and the other side of that is doing the most good in the process. Do you kind of see your work as harm reduction?
- [79:26]
B
Yeah, I do. It almost feels like I've gone to therapy and you're sharing, you're sharing your thoughts and your, your views on my life. It is, I think you hit it, you hit the nail on the head. I think it's really, it is really about that. It is about reducing harm and caring and love and just like, yeah, look, we're all, we all get there in the end. We'll all get there. We'll all pass and lead to the, go to the next life, whatever you believe in. But what you do today and what kind of, what kind of impact are you leaving and what kind of example are you sharing with the world? But also our loved ones, our children, our partners, ourselves. What are we saying about ourselves in these moments? So it is, it is about reducing harm because sound, sound, you know, you say you're near Central park, right?
- [80:26]
A
Yeah.
- [80:27]
B
All you need is love. I mean, going back to the Beatles and John Lennon. Imagine, you know, that famous spot over there in Central Park. I mean, imagine what a world would be if we cared 10% more.
- [80:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, I want to wrap this up. We don't have time to get into the spiritual side of things. Maybe we'll do, maybe we'll do round two on that. But to your point, one of my, one of my greatest influences and teachers from a spiritual perspective is Ram Dass and he's got this, you know, his, one of his more famous quotes is we're all just walking each other home and I have no clue. I don't, I don't have any clue. Even as someone who is a Christian, like I don't have clue what home is like. I don't I don't, frankly, care what home is like, what the next life is, how that looks. Is it some sort of reincarnation sort of thing? Or is it like, I don't care? I don't, I honestly don't give a fuck what home looks like. I just know and believe as someone who is trying to reduce harm and trying to get as many people to give a damn as possible, that that's like, the goal. And that's a very sobering thing, actually, because it's like, oh, wait, wait, wait, did he mean all? Because if he meant all, that means that I am also walking this path toward home with Trump supporters, AKA fascist supporters, with Zionists, with all kinds of people that I completely and utterly and unequivocally on this earth disagree with. Like, I don't want. I don't want much or anything to do with these people. And yet, if Ram Dass is correct, what is. What are the implications of that? What, what is there is. Is redemption a possibility for these people? Like, am I, Am I looking to, like, kick them out of my life totally? Or am I willing to, if they do see the light, as it were, am I willing to, like, accept them, bring them into the fold and make this fold bigger? You know, those are, those are, I guess, bigger questions for a different conversation. But, but to your point of, like, you know, on the vein of, like, harm reduction and like, what's. Yeah, what's the point of all of this? Like, I do believe that we're all walking each other home. That includes all, all of us, the. The animals and the, the client. The client. This planet, this only planet that we have, that I know of. And, and us, you and me and all the people that we interact with and work with on a, on a daily basis, the people that we have influence over. Anyway, last question before I let you go. This is a hypothetical question that I need a real answer to. So the hypothetical is someday, far, far, far, far into the future, you pass, you die. And for some reason, we are good enough friends at this point that I am asked to give your eulogy. So I'm there with Venetia and with all of your family and your friends. Hopefully your dad is not a Trump supporting person anymore and he's like, all into the movement. And so all the people that you, I mean, this is you. You're having a great influence on people. So this is a big crowd that has gathered to mourn your life, to celebrate your life. And again, for some odd reason, I've been asked to give Your eulogy, whether specifically or general ideas, what do you hope that I would say about your life on that day?
- [83:58]
B
Wow. Hopefully you wouldn't have to say anything because you would have seen, you would have seen and heard and felt the impact and everything they left behind. Hopefully. Hopefully. It's a day of celebration. I, I'm, I talk about this with my wife. I, I want that if I pass before you, I want that day to be a big celebration. I don't want people sad and, and crying like, yeah, sure you could. But I want that day to be a celebration of like joy and remembrance. But I don't really, I don't spend time thinking about, oh, what will they say? I'm still like with the blinders, the horse blinders, thinking just like, you know, I, I had to grow up not caring what other people said or say, what they say, say about me, and still do. I still don't care what people say about me. So I think this, that, that response is, is probably spot on for me. I don't care what people say, but hopefully what I've left behind, the legacy I've built, can speak for itself.
- [85:05]
A
I like that I, I don't ask that question every podcast conversation. In fact, I haven't asked it a lot lately. But I've never had someone say, I hope you have nothing to say because my life, my life said it all. Everybody in that room hopefully will have been affected by you positively. And so, yeah, there's no, it'll just be like, like the eulogy, let's party sort of a thing. Fantastic. That's right. Shortest eulogy ever. Just. DJ Max, I hope this is not our last conversation on and off the podcast, but this has been a true, true joy. Thank you for sharing your work. Thank you for sharing why you do the work that you do and why you live the way that you do. This has been a real joy. Thank you for joining me and us today.
- [85:52]
B
Nick. Thank you. I think this is one of the best podcasts I've ever been on too. So I really appreciate the great questions and I mean, it meant a lot to me. So thank you, Friends.
- [86:08]
A
Thank you so much for showing up and for spending some time with Max and me today to find links for everything mentioned in today's conversation and to keep up with all things let's give a damn, visit letsgivadam.com Please share this episode with a friend. Please leave us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And please, please, please show up next week. We have so many incredible conversations coming your way. You can reach out anytime and for any reason at hello at let's giveadam. Com. Keep giving a damn. I love you all. Bye for now.