Mohsen Mahdawi: Nonviolent Resistance, Buddhism, and the Battle Between Fear and Love

Summary

Podcast Summary: Let's Give A Damn

Episode: Mohsen Mahdawi: Nonviolent Resistance, Buddhism, and the Battle Between Fear and Love
Host: Nick Laparra
Guest: Mohsen Mahdawi
Date: December 11, 2025

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Overview

This episode features Mohsen Mahdawi, a Palestinian activist, organizer, and Buddhist who played a pivotal role in the Columbia University pro-Palestine encampments. Born in a West Bank refugee camp, Mahdawi has woven the trauma of his upbringing under occupation with a lived philosophy of nonviolence, coalition-building, and Buddhist practice. The wide-ranging conversation explores the roots of nonviolent resistance, the relationship between fear and love in activism, the ongoing struggle in Palestine, and Mahdawi’s recent detention and targeting by U.S. authorities. The dialogue is powerful, vulnerable, and deeply grounded in hope and pragmatism.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

Meditation, Mindfulness, and Emotional Regulation

[09:06 – 16:21]

• The episode begins with a short meditation session, initiated by Mohsen, which Nick credits with centering the discussion and highlighting the value of mindfulness.
• Mohsen describes meditation as an essential daily practice, with the first benefit being “awareness”—of emotions and state of mind.
  • Quote: "If we're not aware of our state of mind or our emotions, we're technically being driven subconsciously into areas that we may not want to be in." (Mohsen, 11:30)
• He talks about overcoming escapist tendencies, and how facing difficult emotions through meditation is necessary but can require support (e.g., therapy, journaling).

Trauma and Growing Up in Occupied Palestine

[22:48 – 37:21]

• Mohsen recalls in detail his childhood in a West Bank refugee camp, describing violence, raids, and personal loss:
  • His uncle’s death at the hands of Israeli soldiers on Mohsen’s 11th birthday (September 12, 2001), a traumatizing event that disrupted his ability to celebrate for years.
    • Quote: “Instead of celebrating my birthday, I literally had to walk in my uncle's funeral... So the memory triggers part of me or part of my memory. And that specific memory was such a painful one.” (Mohsen, 24:14)
  • Current violence: The episode was recorded right after a raid on his home camp, with his sister’s house being stormed and his nieces/nephews terrified.
  • The density and deprivation in the camps: "It's higher density than Manhattan. But you don't have the amenities—no consistent water, no safe housing, no place for children to play except the street." (Mohsen, 53:02)

Palestine, Empire, and Historical Context

[38:00 – 52:13]

• Discussion addresses widespread misconceptions and historical amnesia about Palestine. The hosts emphasize the British role (via the Balfour Declaration and colonial practices) in setting up conditions for ongoing injustice.
• Mohsen critiques the Israeli narrative and notes global shifts in public perception:
  • Quote: “The genocide has actually wakened up humanity in a way that it has not been awakened before... the first livestreamed genocide in the history of humanity.” (Mohsen, 43:52)
• The conversation includes references to new films (e.g., “Palestine 36”) that expand understanding beyond recent events.

Activism, Organizing, and Targeting

[62:26 – 76:06]

• Mohsen was a central organizer for the pro-Palestine movement at Columbia, building broad coalitions and emphasizing peaceful protest.
• He describes months of deliberate, disciplined groundwork leading up to the encampments, and how activism at Columbia went on to inspire campuses nationwide.
• Mohsen was targeted by pro-Israel groups and doxxed, leading to his detention after a citizenship interview turned into a trap.
  • His legal battle became a national precedent regarding free speech and the rights of non-citizen activists.
  • Quote: “I am saying clear and loud to President Trump and his cabinet, I am not afraid of you.” (Mohsen, 74:04)
  • Despite the risks, Mohsen credits his training and Buddhist practice for keeping him "centered and not afraid" as he faced incarceration and threat of deportation.

The Battle Between Fear and Love

[76:17 – 109:57]

• Mohsen and Nick discuss the mechanics of fear as a tool of empire and how nonviolent resistance confronts this.
• Quote: "The two energies are coming into a clash where love is going to dominate. Supremacists motivated by fear, authoritarians motivated by fear..." (Mohsen, 99:52)
• Mohsen unpacks how his Buddhist and Islamic traditions shape his commitment to nonviolence, even as he recognizes the complexity of struggle under extreme oppression.
• Coalition work, he argues, can only be successful and sustainable when rooted in love, tolerance, and collective healing.
• He addresses the need for trauma healing among both Palestinians and Israelis, and pushes against leftist “cancel culture” as ultimately counterproductive.
  • “If we are treating them with the same way that they are treating us, we will not be able to transform the conflict.” (Mohsen, 100:17)

Spirituality, Healing, and Leadership

[87:10 – 106:59]

• Raised Muslim, Mohsen honors both his Islamic and Buddhist roots: “I never renounce Islam because it has taught me a lot of beautiful things... Buddhism brought my spiritual practice home, where I feel it in my body, it's practical.”
• He traces his discovery of Buddhism to community engagement in Vermont and university, focusing on meditation and compassion.
• Both hosts share how spirituality provides grounding in activism and daily life—“I want to see peace in the world, but I can't see peace in the world if I am not actually feeling it in my body 100%.” (Mohsen, 106:59)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the mechanics of oppression:
  “The mentality is they know that they have caused a huge level of injustice, and they know that justice must be served. And what they try to do... is to keep us under control and to condition us mentally that you will never be able to get your liberation or to get your homeland, give up on it and move on.”
  (Mohsen, 39:29)

• On fear as the foundation of modern empire:
  “Empire only thrives if people are afraid of them... when you say, 'I'm not afraid of you'—that's the worst thing they could ever hear.”
  (Nick, 77:39)

• On love as revolutionary:
  “You can treat somebody with compassion and still put them in prison... In order to bring the shift, we have to really come from an open and big heart. Our priority is not only stopping the harm, but also after that, [helping] treat it from the root causes.”
  (Mohsen, 104:09)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Meditation, Emotional Check-In: 09:06 – 16:21
• Childhood in Occupied West Bank: 22:48 – 37:21
• Historic Context for Palestine: 38:00 – 52:13
• Columbia Organizing / Activist Detention: 62:26 – 76:06
• Nonviolence, Buddhism, Fear vs. Love: 87:10 – 109:57
• Organizing, Coalition-Building, Healing: 103:06 – 106:59

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Takeaways

• Activism and organizing must be rooted in self-awareness, emotional regulation, and love, not merely anger or fear.
• The Palestinian struggle is emblematic of broader global battles for justice and the future of empire.
• Nonviolent resistance is not passive—it is a practice that requires daily reassurance, coalition, and spiritual grounding.
• Change must be holistic: Both sides of a conflict need healing and liberation from cycles of trauma and oppression.
• Spiritual traditions (Buddhism, Islam, Christianity) can inform a practical and compassionate approach to justice work.

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"If my cup is full, I can fill other cups. But if my cup is empty, I can't fill other cups."
— Mohsen Mahdawi [14:01]

"Tell people that I am here in prison, but not imprisoned, because my spirit is free."
— Mohsen Mahdawi [97:32]

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Closing

Nick and Mohsen end with gratitude, a commitment to continue the dialogue, and the recognition that how the world treats the Palestinian cause will determine the course of justice and freedom for all people. Both call for listeners to practice personal presence, community care, and relentless pursuit of liberation based in love.

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For further details, events, and links, visit letsgivadam.com.

Transcript

[A]

Hello friends. Welcome to the let's Give a Damn podcast, a show where I have conversations with incredible people who aim to leave the planet much better than they found it. I'm your host, Nick lapara. Thank you for being here. You could be doing a million different things today and you've chosen to listen to this show on this day. So thank you very much. It means the world to me. I want to start off with an apology. It has been two months since our last episode. I am trying to figure out how to make these happen more frequently with everything else happening in my life and in the world. I promise I'm trying to figure it out and I will figure it out. Before I introduce this week's guest, a quick reminder that you can show your support for let's Give a Damn by becoming a monthly donor partner on our Patreon. You can follow us on social media, you can share this episode with friends in person or online. You can buy some of our merch on our website letsgivadam.com maybe you're an organization or company that aligns with us and you'd like to sponsor some episodes. There are so many ways, friends to support and I invite you to explore which ones are right for you. Reach out anytime with any [e-mail] y'. All. So much is happening right now. We're going to get to my incredible guest in just a minute but but let me give you a few updates, a few things rather that I want you to pay attention to over the next few months. First, if you live in New York City, Louisiana, San Francisco, dc, Chicago, Berkeley, Houston, Dallas, Philly or San Diego, you need to go follow the voice of Hind Rajab on Instagram. Hind, of course is the five year old angel of a Palestinian who with her family was fleeing their home in Gaza on January 29, 2024 in order to stay alive and instead they were brutally murdered by the iof. They were ambushed by the most immoral army in the world who proceeded over many hours to shoot at their vehicle 355 times. This film, the Voice of Hindra Job is is a must see and it is being shown in the cities I mentioned earlier starting December 17th and you can go to their Instagram to see when it releases in your city between December 17th and the end of January because at the end of January it opens up nationwide. Joaquin Phoenix, Mara Rooney, Brad Pitt executive produced it. The director is incredible. The the cast is amazing and I was honored to attend a private screening at the UN last week. Please follow the voice of Hindra Job and see it as soon as you possibly can. Another film that you must see is a film called between the Mountain and the Sky. It's a documentary about my friend Maggie Doyne, who after a gap year in India many years ago, she stayed behind, traveled to Nepal foundation, fell in love with these amazing children and started a home for them. She now has over 100 kids that she is mama to. And she met her husband Jeremy years ago during a season of heartbreak after one of the kids tragically died. And after she met Jeremy. This became a documentary over the course of the next few years and it is so gorgeous and it is moving and Maggie is literally one of the best humans and they've done a crazy thing. So the other film that I just shared about, some of you can't see it until the end of January. This film you can see right now. They've done a crazy thing. While they continue to look for distribution, they've made it available on their website for you to watch. It's pay what you want, pay what you can, but don't you dare watch it without leaving them something. So go immediately to between the mountain and the sky.com rent it today and follow their film and Maggie on social media. And lastly, another film. Yes, I'm talking about three films today. This is another film that you need to watch out for. Palestine 36 Holy shit. What a wild ride. What a wild film. Super devastating, super sad, but all facts, all real, all what happened. This is a feature film directed by Anne Marie Jasir, starring my friend Saleh Bakri, Robert Aramayo, Jeremy Iron, Liam Cunningham and a host of other incredible actors. It tells the story of the years between the Belfort declaration, the horrific 1917 British statement, supporting quote, a national home for the Jewish people in end quote, in Palestine. And that of course means their support of the ethnic cleansing that started in Palestine over a hundred years ago. And it also, it tells a story between that time leading up to the 1936 Great Palestinian Revolt where Palestinians fought back against Britain. And so many of them paid a horrific price for it. Many folks begin talking about what is currently happening in Gaza and in Palestine. They refer back to the Nakba in 1948 as the start of it all. But Britain paved the way. These colonizing white people paved the way all those years ago for what Zionists ended up doing a couple decades later. So please watch this film. It's absolutely incredible. It's currently available and showing in theaters in Europe. It will come to the US so please go follow it. Palestine 36 on social media watch out for will win awards. It will do well and we need to get it to the state so.

[B]

That everyone, everyone, everyone can watch it.

[A]

And now for my guest this week, y', all, this human is fascinating and strong and brave. And when Donald Trump successfully kidnapped him for several weeks, this happened back several months ago. My guest told Donald Trump after he was released from his unlawful imprisonment, AKA his unlawful kidnap ing he said, I am saying clear and loud to President Trump and his cabinet, I am not afraid of you. Mohsen Madhawi was born in a refugee camp in occupied west bank in Palestine. He is a Buddhist. He was the president of Colombia's Buddhist association and he co founded the Palestinian Student Union. And he was one of the most prominent organizers of the protests and the encampments at Columbia last year. He was the voice everyone was listening to and taking cues from throughout the weeks and months that they were terrorized by Zionists and the nypd. In this conversation we get into all of that and more, including his life philosophy, which is all about love and not being afraid. Love is very necessary for coalition building. And those that come to build from a place of anger and bitterness, they fail so often at creating lasting change. Which is why Mohsen's life philosophy is about love. We also talk about the root of empire and fascism being lack of love. We had to cut our conversation off a little after an hour and a half, but I could have gone on for hours.

[B]

He's so incredible.

[A]

And this won't be the last time you or I hear from him before we begin. A quick reminder, as always, before that you can email me anytime and for any [e-mail] you can ask questions, recommend future guests tell me what you love or hate. The show, Anything goes. I just love hearing from you. And don't forget, if you prefer to watch your podcasts instead of listen to them, we're on YouTube as well. And now let's get right into my conversation with my brother and hero, Mohsen Madhawi.

[B]

Let's go.

We have been trying to get this going for a couple of weeks now. I had to postpone. You had to postpone? I had to postpone. But here we are. And I'm so delighted to be here with you.

[C]

It's a pleasure and an honor. I am very grateful. And you know, sometimes we have to trust the way and.

We trusted that we will eventually make it happen.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And the right time is now not the other three times that we had planned. And of course, you profusely apologized when you had to postpone. And I did the same, even though we both believe that, no, this is the time that it had to happen. And, you know, whatever happened in those other days, here we are. And.

All that said, I'm so thrilled. May I share what we did before we started?

[C]

Definitely.

[B]

You asked me, we were doing sort of a prep call the other day and you asked me if we could begin today with a little bit of meditation. And I. Two things with meditation, with me, every single time I do it, it's a win. It's so good for me. And yet it's one of those things that thus far in life I haven't prioritized. And I don't know why, because even the 10 minutes that we spent before turning these mics on and the camera on was.

It'S so incredible how we can be in that space and tell ourselves what to do and how to come back. You know, we don't think about listening to our breath go in and out of our bodies and we don't feel it in our belly. We don't think that we could feel something in our belly button or follow the path of our breath through our body. And we can, because I did it. And every time, I have such a wonderful time. So, a, thank you for suggesting we begin with meditation.

[C]

Thank you for your openness.

[B]

B, I might try to incorporate even if my guest isn't keen on it or sometimes it's hard because of the, you know, it's virtual, it's remote. But there's got to be a version of that that I can even do for one minute.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Before I start with any guests, like, hey, we're not going to do a 10 minute sit on the ground, cross your legs, get into a thing. But it really, really helps to like, be centered going into these things.

[C]

I'm very glad to hear this. Yeah.

[B]

I guess. Before we begin, what is your. And we're going to get into your faith in a bit. I don't want to get into that just yet because we have much more to learn in preparation of fleshing that out. But meditation, is this a daily practice for you? And what do you think? Not what do you think, what do you know that it does for you?

[C]

Yeah. First of all, I am very delighted that you have the open mind to say, yes, let's do it. You've been practicing meditation too. This is how it came into our conversation, that we both have connection to meditation. Maybe I Am a little bit more rigorous about my practice, as you're confessing, since I practice daily.

And I think.

When I think about meditation.

The first thing comes to mind is awareness.

Because if we're not aware of our state of mind or our emotions, we're technically being driven subconsciously into areas that we may not want to be in.

And unfortunately, the autopilot is not necessarily programmed by us because we react to many different things and we develop different patterns and we react to different emotions. And meditation, what it does to me, the first level, the first layer, it allows me to be aware. How am I feeling? So many of us forget completely to check in and to see, how are we feeling? And sometimes they ask people, how are you feeling? And most of the time, people say, either I don't know when they actually check in or I'm feeling okay. Good. So meditation in the morning, it resets my day by being aware how am I feeling? And then I want to be in a state of. Of peace. A state of peace, in my understanding, is a state of love, which means that my body has to be relaxed from tension. And tension that can happen in my stomach. That's where the emotion starts developing. And what I do is I increase my concentration. That means this is my subject of meditation, my breath, which is my anchor. And what I do, I notice then I am aware of my body and its state, whether if it's relaxed, at peace or not. And then I start breathing into the tension, if there is any, to let it go and to relax. It's a very good exercise. Simple, and it's amazing to think about. How simple is it? It's an ancient exercise we're talking about roughly 3,000 years ago.

And the impact of it. You can't help but feel it in your body. You don't need somebody to validate how are you feeling, because you feel the difference. And this is where meditation comes from. So being aware, regulating my emotions. And if I am in a state of peace and comfort and love.

I come to this world in a different way.

My cup would be full. And if my cup is full, I can fill other cups, but if my cup is empty, I can't fill other cups?

[B]

Yeah. Do you think that might be why? Kind of feeling more deeply and intimately and just really figuring out how you feel? Do you think that's why a lot of people might not want to meditate as often as they should because of what they might encounter, what they might face, and what they may be forced to like, oh, shit, I need to. I Need to do something about that.

[C]

That's part of it for sure.

Yeah. Because.

A lot of us, we have coping mechanisms, so we find escapes. Escapes from what? From difficult feelings. We travel the world, we start projects.

We go have fun, we drink, we party, we do things. And. And I'm not saying all the time it is an escape, but at many phases. Earlier in my life, it felt like I was escaping from feelings because the moment you sit with yourself and you feel. And the deeper you sit, actually, the more important emotions start arising. And unfortunately, many people don't have the skill to know how to navigate those emotions. So you would want to have a therapist or a person who is specialized about emotions. But the practice of meditation, the whole practice, helps to regulate the emotions. So, yes, difficult emotions would come up and all what you need to do is.

[B]

But then we can actually figure out through meditation how to deal with what we're feeling, what we're encountering.

[C]

You can figure out how to calm the mind and body, but to deal with it, you would need somebody. You would need to dive deeper into the roots, the root causes of the issue.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Which is having a therapist would help. Journaling would help. Talking to people who know how to navigate their feelings would help, but it helps with.

Ups and downs. Right. So every time you feel down, you just breathe and you relax your body and you live in the moment, in the present.

[B]

I think it's beautiful that we're talking about this because it's good timing because.

My partner and I, we have three kids, and they're at really incredible, but also really tough ages. They are 11, 12, and 13. We have three kids very close together, and at the time, I have no clue why we did it that way. Now I'm kind of happy because they're each other's really good friends, and there's lots of positives and pros, but it's very difficult. Ages. They're all. They're in puberty and about to hit puberty, and all the feelings and all the emotions. And I was just recently. From our phone call to now, and then talking about it now is really helping me, like, solidify that this needs to be a family practice, because things are. You know, sometimes they get a little crazy at home. And again, just lots of emotions, lots of feelings, lots of opinions, and I can't imagine how it would not benefit us to. Before they go to school in the morning, even, like, five, seven minutes, we're gonna. We're gonna put it on the schedule so it doesn't get left off. And we're gonna begin our day together, the five of us, meditating. I can't imagine that that wouldn't benefit us greatly and get them ready for the day, for whatever they're gonna face.

So maybe you just pushed us to.

[C]

I am. I am seeing a lot of initiatives on your end. The first one with your. With the people who you interview, you want to incorporate meditation, and now you're expanding it to bring it home to your children and to your partner as well. And I'm just so moved that you feel inspired from and reminded that this is something that would be very helpful. And I think, to be honest with you, I think if there is a curriculum in schools that is actually designed to help children to navigate and regulate their emotions, meditation is going to be a main practice.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I think we would have a much better world because.

The way how your children would relate to their friends in school or to their classmates and the way how they would interact with them, it would be most likely much more productive.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Much more thoughtful, much more kind. I'm not saying that they are not that way, but exactly. More. And that's how I saw this practice helping me over the years.

[B]

I love that. Well, stay tuned. I will keep you updated.

[C]

I'm really excited.

[B]

I will also keep the listeners updated because I. I say a lot of things on here at times with guests and when I do little monologues to keep myself accountable. Because now I've put it out there and people are listening to it, and people know he might not do it, but he committed to do that. So I will keep you all updated.

[C]

It's about the intention, right?

[B]

Yeah. Right. And it starts there.

[C]

And one thing. Thing to keep in mind is starting small. Right. So you would want to make it as easy, as convenient as possible. So I would start, like, literally for two minutes the first week and increase it another minute or two after that. If you can try five minutes. If it feels too long, make it easy and convenient and a place that would be convenient for all of you. Maybe in the car instead of in the house. Well, you're in New York City, but.

[B]

I understand the idea of, like, starting small, not, you know, not overdoing. I did a meditation.

What is that noise? Is it out there?

[C]

I think the spirits are knocking on the door. But this is. This is the heat. Yeah.

[B]

New York. Yeah. We don't have ours.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

We have the little. The little things on the floor. Yeah. Yeah. That makes total sense. It's the knocking.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

For those listening, we're in New York in a New York apartment. So we got all sorts of noises and creaks and stuff.

[C]

And you have to be okay with.

[B]

Be okay with it. Yep, this is it. I once did a podcast years ago.

Sitting on the ground under an overpass, because I had scheduled this interview in a building with someone before their show. It was a hip hop artist. So before their concert. And then the room that they had booked for us was double booked. And then the other room, you could hear all the sound check. And so we literally walked outside, found a nice rock, you know, nice rock on the floor, and did it with cars going. And it was great.

[C]

So it's more real.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So we got New York apartment noises.

[C]

You saw one of the exercises of mindfulness that we did is we paid attention to the sound in naming it. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And what you can do is sometimes something that is a distraction and annoying, you can change your relationship to it by saying, every time I notice it, I'm going to tell myself I am aware that I am noticing it. And that shifts. That shifts your. Your emotions from, like, being resentful to, like, I'm grateful because this is reminding me that I am aware, I am conscious.

[B]

I love that. Okay, we have so much to get into, so let's get into. Let's start with some of your story. I would love to hear. And folks might have heard versions of this on other, you know, interviews. Or. Or maybe people are. Many are finding out about you for the first time. Tell me about the early years.

The people, places, things that were part of your upbringing that helped you, that hurt you, that made you who you are today. You have quite the story, quite the upbringing, probably, and by probably, I mean most definitely different than almost every listener on here, or again, at least the majority of them didn't have an upbringing similar to yours. So I would love to. I'll ask some questions, but I'd love for you to just, when I ask that question, just go wherever that feels right to you.

[C]

Thank you for inviting me to talk about my upbringing and childhood.

It's very alive in me today to talk about this because last night I stayed up pretty late, and this morning I woke up on the news in the west bank because the same refugee camp where I was born and raised has been raided and besieged by the Israeli army. And they have, I've seen, I'll show you later, pictures and videos that just brought me back literally to the age when I was roughly 10, 11 years old.

And one of the most significant memories, I saw a video of An Apache or a helicopter. It was in the air and shooting from the air. And I remember the first time I heard that as a child. It was actually on my birthday, September, September 12, 2001. And that was the same day when my uncle was killed on the hands of the Israeli army. So the memory triggers.

It triggers part of me or part of my memory.

And that memory, that specific memory, was such a painful one. I feel grateful that now I can reflect on it without having my body in a deep state of harm or tension or sadness, because I have done the work, the healing work that needs to be done. But for a child, when I think of my inner child waking up early in the morning around like 7am on the sound of a helicopter shooting very loudly. You can hear it and you don't know where the helicopter is shooting. And they look around me and usually my grandmother would be in the same room where I am sleeping, but my grandmother is not there. And usually one or two uncles would be kind of drinking, sipping on coffee with my grandmother. Nobody is there, but I'm hearing noise in the background. And I walk outside the house and I see my grandmother weeping with all of my.

The. The. The women in the family, my stepmother, my uncle's wives.

And the neighbors. And I'm like, I am shocked. I am 10, 11 years old, 11 years in 2001. And I'm stunned. What's happening? You know, I am. I am scared. From the sound, my initial reaction, I'm scared. Nobody around me. So I run outside the house, and then in the street, all of the women in the street are crying and gathering around my grandmother.

And I hear a little child coming around me and say, saying, your uncle Thayer has been killed. And they are unable to retrieve his body because the Israeli army is preventing the ambulance to come and pick him up. The day before.

Was September 11, 2001.

And the Israeli army has used that as a coverage to come and attack Palestinian towns and refugee camps in the West Bank. And I saw my uncle the day before, and I told him, don't forget tomorrow is my birthday. So instead of celebrating my birthday, I literally had to walk in my uncle's funeral.

And see him saturated with blood.

On his beard.

His clothes and his pants. And I was in a state of shock while people are gathering around him.

He was newly married, three months old, child. His wife was shaking him and screaming. I go close to him and I take from his feet one of his shoes, because there was one. And I keep. I hold on it. So that is the memory that comes to mind also. I spoke with my sister, she's one year younger than me and she has five children. And the army broke into their house.

This morning. And she was telling me how the kids were basically terrified and scared seeing and she's telling me the very big tall soldiers came, broke it, broke the door with a machine. Usually they would blow up the door, but I'm glad they did not do that. They just broke in. And the kids are literally terrified by that. And it brings memories when the army did that when I was a child.

And many, many stories that I've seen of injustice. The army would arrest people, just come in, break into the houses, arrest people, keep them on administrative detention for years. Every three months or six months they renew it without having, you know, somebody committing any crimes. And then I also saw my best friend getting shot in front of my eyes when I was a kid, a 14 years old kid. His name is Hameda, black, Palestinian. We lived next to each other.

Unjustly and many series of loss.

So when this happens, and nowadays it's not as far as it was before, because you see it live, you see the news, you see the videos.

You speak with people and you hear the stories. And that is part of my upbringing. The refugee camp itself. Now fourth generations are being raised in the refugee camp. The background is everybody who's there are basically refugees from historical Palestine, which is Israel now. My town, where my great grandfather and grandfather used to be is called Im Khalid. It's called Netanyahu today because they destroyed everything in it, erased it and built a new city there. It was on the Mediterranean Sea. And even though between the camp and Im Khalid, between the camp and the town, less than 50 miles distance, we never seen the sea when we were there. So four generations now. I was raised as a third generation. The refugee camp has been there for 77 years. And it's not enough for the Israelis that we have basically punished and kicked out of our lands, exiled from our lands and denied the right to go back to our properties. But they continue to come back to the refugee camps and punish and torture people and traumatize people. This is the reality in the west bank and Gaza. And Gaza is even way worse, as we have seen.

[B]

I'm sure you have a hundred more stories like that and I'm so sorry. Each one, the three stories you told, two from back then and what's currently still happening to your sister and her family.

Your uncle's. The slaughter of your uncle happened on your birthday, 11th birthday.

How long was it until you Were able to.

Celebrate a birthday and not feel. And is that even possible? Maybe the. How long still hasn't happened? I still can't celebrate my birthday because of what happened. I know how traumatic it is for certain things to happen, you know, around a holiday. My brother in law died by suicide four years ago, right before Christmas. So for my partner and her family and me, because I am in this family, that holiday is forever.

Covered in what happened. Right. Three days ago, one of my childhood friends was killed in a motorcycle accident and left four kids behind and a wife. And I've known him for 30 years. So now we haven't.

[A]

We weren't.

[B]

We haven't been super close in a decade or so, but still 30 years of history. So Thanksgiving, especially for his family, will never. I mean Thanksgiving, generally speaking, it's a trash holiday that we kind of use to like have a day of rest and a meal. But the holiday itself is neither here nor there. But this whole, like this whole holiday is now totally has that over it. So for you and your birthday, which is typically a celebratory thing, you know, you and God and the universe and whoever else you got you to a new year, you know, are you able to celebrate it? And if so, how long was it until you know those.

The movies that are playing in your head of what you saw and experienced. Grabbing your. Your murdered uncle's shoe, you know, like all of that. Like.

[C]

There are many painful memories that are related to my birthday. Especially like this uncle also had a very special, unique place in my life. He was a mentor for me as a child. One of the kindest people, the most influencing people. In fact, part of the reason why I am here at Colombia. Because I wanted to fulfill his dreams and to abide by his advice. When he shared with me that we lost everything materially, but we have not lost our minds and hearts. And that I must invest in my education. And I'm so sorry for your loss. Your friend and your brother in law.

It communicates to me your level of thoughtfulness too. Because instead of. And this is the hope that our stories, what they do to each other, we find ways to relate to each other. Because my story is no longer distanced. Now it is something you relate to.

I did not celebrate for a long time. And actually for seven years we have not celebrated anything, including the holidays in our household. And for many years, couple of years, we would not be watching or listening to music. This is the mourning. The mourning lasted for years. And for many years my grandmother and my uncles would only Dress up black.

Just to remember that this is connected to the loss of my uncle. And actually my grandmother continued crying and crying over the years to the point that she lost her vision. So celebrating, even though for a child, I may, you know, and there is something incredible about childhood, about childhood and children, that our level of adaption, we adapt or adaptability is so high. And that's the mercy of life, that you can live in such extreme conditions and you continue going and later in life, the trauma comes back and haunt you when you are safe and secure to a certain level, when you become an adult. So for many years, I did not celebrate my birthday. No birthday cakes, no candles. And even though when I went to the university.

The 2008, which was like seven years from that time, and I had some friends coming to, wanting to celebrate my birthday, I could not do it. I think the first time I allowed for a celebration was when I came to America. And that's because I started reprocessing some of those stories and relating to them differently. So the way how I relate to my uncle's memory now, I don't just I can celebrate my birthday and at the same time dedicate and communicate. And you can see some posts that I have put before. Every time on my birthday, I say in memory of my uncle to honor my uncle's life. I continue the struggle through education, through a protest, through advocacy, and through speaking up and sharing not only my uncle's story, because my uncle's story is one of hundreds of thousands of stories. And that is how I relate to it. And now I think I can celebrate without the. Without the bitterness that I used to have before.

[B]

Well, I'm, you know, through tragedy. I guess your birthday now has more meaning.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Because you've chosen to. And you know, in addition to celebrating a new year of life, you're also committing to continue the work that you do in his memory.

[C]

Thank you. When is your birthday, by the way?

[B]

September 2nd.

[C]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

We're 10 years apart. Yes.

[C]

Virgos. Two Virgos here. Creativity.

[B]

I could have guessed that you were Virgo before.

I could have guessed.

[C]

Close.

[B]

But I'm so glad that we.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That we share that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Your home. So this is something I think that's important to point out is that.

[C]

Again.

[B]

I think everyone listening is, for lack of a better term, because I don't like this phrase, but every listening is on the right side of this issue when it comes to Palestine and getting everyone free. But I think it bears saying just to remind ourselves, to remind ourselves that we have a lot to say when anyone says, but October 7th, you know, like, as if this whole thing started on October 7th. Because we know it didn't. We know that generations, decades of families have lived in concentration. Well, that was a Freudian slip. It is. I was going to say that was a Freudian slip. But concentration camps, refugee camps, these are not. These are not fun places to grow up. These are not a lot of bad. Like, it's. It's a. It's not a good environment to grow up in. And I'm sure, you know, we know that great organizations like UNRA and others, like, try to do their best to, you know, educate the kids and try, but they're not. And then they still. And then the IOF still comes to those places. You're not even in your home anymore. We've already taken you out of your home. We've already, you know, destroyed your home, put you in these refugee concentration camps, and then we're going to come terrorize and kill your uncle, kill other people.

[C]

The mentality, you know, the mentality is they know that they have caused a huge level of injustice, and they know that justice must be served.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And what they try to do in their mentality, they try to keep us under control and to condition. To condition us mentally that you will never be able to get your liberation or to get your homeland, give up on it and move on. And it's their fear and their insecurity from the harm that they have done to my people that keeps them not asleep at night. I mean, the amount of energy that they put in the Israeli intelligence, in the Israeli. And they don't like to call. To call them Israeli forces or even iof. I call the apartheid forces the Israeli apartheid forces because it has to be called for what it is. It's an apartheid forces in the west bank, genocide forces that move back and forth between the west bank and Gaza. And we have to use those terms. It's much stronger than iof.

So what they try to do is they try. They have a term called mowing the grass. Have you heard?

[A]

Mowing the lawn.

[B]

Yeah, mowing the grass.

[C]

Mowing the lawn. And what it means is like, continue reminding Palestinians that they will not be able to rise and keep them under control. And they think that this is the way to move forward. But now the issue is much larger. And I think.

I think that they are.

In a place.

They are. They are now stuck because this whole idea of mowing the grass is not working anymore because it's way larger than just the west bank and Gaza.

[B]

They definitely, I mean they being.

[C]

The.

[B]

IAF or the IGF and, and Israel as a whole and Zionism as a whole, they definitely had an upper hand pre October 7th. Like they had a lot more people convinced they were the good guys. They had a lot more people convinced that their plan was the right one.

I don't see how they. There's no going back from the last two years. No, I mean the entire planet except for the us Israel and a few other white European dudes. Right. Though they're the only ones that still believe the Zionist lie. The whole world has woken up. And so it's interesting you said like, well, I posted a video this morning on my Instagram of Betar Zionist Organization.

[C]

They're the one who doxed me too and called for my deportation.

[B]

I mean their, their Twitter feed is, is nauseating. It will literally make you vomit. And they posted a video of just the horrific, just the, the. The aftermath of the mowing of the lawn in, in. Just the destruction in, in. In Gaza. They posted a video and the caption was gleefully talking about how this is what happens. You Palestinians will never harm the hair on the head of another Jew.

[C]

And.

[B]

And then they ended it with. And then, and then they said, flee, Flee Gaza. Like, get out of Gaza. Like, this is yours. Like, get out. Look what we did to it. Get out. And I think a lot of it is because they know they've lost it. Like, they've lost. They have to still like, re. They have to like, put on a show and they have to like, reinforce it. Like, hey, we're. We still believe this, but they can't anymore. Like, you can't believe that you're still going to.

Win.

[C]

They live in, they live in a, in an isolated bubble, I would call it. They are delusional. They are not in touch with the reality. Because.

There are many different reasons for me, why I am saying this. Yeah. The first one is what the Israeli.

Army has done in Gaza. The genocide has actually wakened up humanity in a way that it has not been awakened before. This is the first phenomena of its kind where the Palestinian issue becomes the issue of the 21st century. And the level of people who are aware about it is.

Larger than any time before about any other issue in the history of humanity. And the reason is because we are interconnected through technology and through social media and people are able to tap into the networks and see what's going on the ground. And because the people on the ground are reporting what is happening to them. So the first documented genocide, life streamed genocide in the history of our humanity. So what did that do? It has wakened up the world. It has wakened up even Jewish communities that were siding with Israel to say, fuck, we have been lied for, we have been brainwashed, we have been indoctrinated to see Israel in certain way. And Israel it's not today. It's been happening for 77 years. And we see big voices emerging as well. I mean Gabor Matei is one of the people who I respect the most I look up to. And Gabor Mate has uncovered, him and his two sons, uncovered a great amount of propaganda that the pro Israel lobbying has been doing. And so many other Jews, Peter Beinert for example, and you've seen the other day about the boycott of the visit to Tel Aviv University. You get so many.

Prominent Jewish people and figures who are coming out and saying Israel, what not only what is what, what Israel has done in Gaza, the ethnic cleansing and the genocide, but the Nakba 1948 Ethnic Cleansing and also a level of genocide. I, I wouldn't use genocide necessarily. People would argue against that. But there was more than 15,000 Palestinians killed and more than 400 towns completely erased. So when Bitar is doing this kind of work, they are not in touch with reality that the reality that the majority actually of the American people are sympathetic towards Palestine. And you see the polls, the only issue that we're seeing, the governments in the United States, the government and it's crumbling on Israel because even the Republicans themselves are speaking up against Israel now.

[B]

Marjorie Taylor Greene exactly, exactly.

[C]

And there are a lot of things that are going to come out in 26, in 2020, 26, it's going to be an interesting year. And the government, the British government as well, same which has actually which should take responsibility for what happened in Palestine partially because as you know, Bill 4 and British government has allowed for this to happen. And then you get the German government as well that is controlled by blind guilt that are supporting Israel. But the rest of the world, I mean you look at the people, they see, they know and they stand up against it. And if they don't, that means they either are supremacist in their way of looking at life, that some people deserve rights and others don't deserve rights and the Israelis can do whatever they want to the Palestinians or they are ignorant, they don't know exactly what's happening, or they are blind by trauma. And this is something that takes time for people to wake up from, especially people who have been traumatized because of the Holocaust and the other persecution of Jews around the world before.

[B]

Speaking of 1936, the Balfour Declaration, most people want to start the story in 48, and we have to talk about 36. In fact, do you know about this film coming out, Palestine 36?

[C]

I saw the promo of it.

[B]

Okay, I. I can get you. There's a few more screenings that are happening, but I can get you the link if you want to, like, watch. I went to a private screening of it here in the city two weeks ago.

[C]

I would love to see it.

[B]

And the director was there. It's absolutely. I mean, it's. It's horrifying. But it really goes to show that obviously I'm taking zero guilt off the shoulders of Zionists, Jewish Zionists.

[A]

But the British government paved the way. Paved it.

[B]

They paved it very smoothly for everything that happened in 48, back in 36. I mean, it's. It's so.

[A]

It's. It's not a.

[B]

It's not a documentary. It's. It's a. You know, it's a feature film. It's an actual film. And Saleh Bakri Zenet and other amazing actors. But it. Yeah, it started. We've got to go. We've got to go back to really understand.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, well, I'm so glad that. So this is part of the awareness and consciousness that is rising, that it's dealing with the roots of the issue. And also the Jewish issue in Europe. Is part of that. That going to be exposed. How did that lead to Zionism?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

For us Palestinians, we know this. You know, this is a part of our history and our culture.

My.

One of my grandmothers. My grandmother is from Yaffa, from a town called Salemi, and one of her siblings were actually persecuted, thrown into prison for a long time, and he was sentenced to death because they found with him some bullets. So those are. Those are the British. This is the British government. And if you think of, like, Azzedine Al Qassam, for example, so Hamas has a brigade called Azzedine Al Qassam. Who's Azzedine Qassam? Ezzeddin Al Qassim is the person who fought the British because they were controlling the Palestinians and trying to pave the way to prevent any level of sovereignty or independence or resistance on the Palestinian side. And there is also very famous song about three people. And you might want to. Actually, I'll send it to you.

[B]

Please do.

[C]

You can attach it to the podcast.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

And it's very famous. Every Palestinian roughly knows it and speaks about three people who were persecuted without any charges and hung up, lynched by the British in Akko, I believe, because it says.

[B]

So.

[C]

It says from Akko's, which is Akka, from Akko's prison. There was a funeral, and in this funeral there was three people. Hamad, Jamjoom, Watah, Jazi.

And Fuad as well. And what they have done, they were telling the other, I want to die before you. So it's a conversation between them and who killed them, who lynched them. The British government. If they found, like, literally they would lynch a person if they found a bullet in their house.

[B]

They're just looking for anything. Anything.

[C]

Yeah, man.

[B]

Okay, we'll circle back to some of that later.

[C]

Colonialism.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And Zionism is another form of colonialism is they just continued the project that the British started there.

[B]

I want to bring us to present day to things that have happened to you in the last year. I obviously want to follow every year since then. We'll do, we'll do another round before we make this a four hour podcast, but before we go to more current day stuff.

The refugee camp that you grew up in, 77 years old, still.

Home to 10, 11,000 Palestinians.

[C]

Yeah. 63 acres. 63 acres, about 10,000 Palestinians. So it's concentration camp.

[B]

That's so many people. So for such a small.

[C]

It's higher density than Manhattan. And Manhattan is one of like the highest density cities in the world.

[B]

And the only reason this sort of density here in Manhattan is acceptable. Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, I mean, I love it.

[B]

I love the density. But the only reason that we can live is because we have, we have accommodations. We have apartments with walls and ceilings and heat, and we can put air conditioning units in the window and we have elevators and we have safe, you know, locks on the doors. That's the only reason this works, correct? This many people or more per capita, without those things.

Horrible, horrible conditions to live in.

[C]

It's painful. Well, not only that, there is regulations here. So you. Right.

[B]

It's permits.

[C]

Yeah. And urban planning. And you have to have certain amount of lights coming into the apartments and so on. In the refugee camp, everything happened on the spot. Spot. It went through three phases. Phase one is the tents. Phase two, mud houses. Phase three is literally cement blocks. And now it's a concrete jungle. We don't like. The widest street is relatively 15ft wide. Houses are sharing walls. Sunlight does not get into houses. If somebody get injured, you have to carry them on a stretcher. And the Break through, through one wall into the other. Create like holes in order to be able to get the stretcher out. Because there are thousands of small alleys, you hear your neighbors all the time. There is no isolation of sound argument. You smell the food in the streets. You don't have places for children to play except in the streets. You share two rooms of this size with like 10 family members. You sleep in the same room when there is rain. Houses get flooded with rain. Electricity and water is not delivered consistently. So water comes twice a week. You save the water in a tank on top of the house and you regulate your use. So you shower only once or twice a week and you wash your clothes once or twice, maximum. So this is like difficult reality. And it's brutal just to know that there are so many resources, there's so much land. And the Israeli government insists to deny Palestinians the right to go back to their property while opening the right of return for every Jewish person in the world. This is the hypocrisy that you see of injustice. People who don't have enough space, space don't have resources. We're disconnected from nature. And at the same time, you just. If you are Jewish, you have the right to go to and live in Israel in, In. On land and properties that are not yours. And I mean, the world is now understanding that this is dangerous and this is unjust and Israel is literally cornered and the matter of justice is going to be served. Yeah. In less than five years, in my understanding.

[B]

Yeah, I totally agree. Again, we don't have to rehash things that we've already spoken about, but I, I agree that this is. I don't know. I'm not saying what the end of Zionism looks like, but this is the end of widespread Zionism around the world. This is the end of believing that they're doing the right thing. Nobody believes it anymore if someone po. If batar. Or if somebody posts something ridiculous, which they're said all the time by people here in our city, the Deborah Messings and the Michael Rapoports and the Rabbi Schmooleys of the world. And then everywhere, they're all over the place saying these lies. And if you just.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Which I'm so grateful for, if I go to the comments, the replies, 90% of them are, you're a liar. Nobody believes this anymore. Yeah. Which I think prior to two years ago, it would have been mostly like, you know, complimenting them, agreeing with them. And so I think that I'm so glad the veil has Been lifted.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And again, I don't know what the future holds. I don't know what the next five years, I don't know what justice looks like. But the only thing that keeps. And I'm not, I'm not Palestinian, although I am Guatemalan. And we have experienced genocide at the. With Israel and the United States connected to it back in the 50s and 60s, leading into the 80s.

And so I have genocide in my blood as well. My, my relatives, in fact my relatives were both on the receiving end of it and those in power in Guatemala. And so I've got, I've got both of the, I've got that tension in mind.

[C]

I want to hear about how does it feel?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, I'm so. I'm so glad that whatever the future holds, it will be justice.

[C]

Well, the thing, Nick, we have to think about it. It's bigger than Palestine.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

It's not about the Palestinian people alone. The issue now is related to any system that denies people their rights and cause a huge level of injustice.

[A]

Any supremacist system.

[C]

Exactly. And try to justify it. Because people worldwide, they want equal rights. And what we are seeing now in Palestine is just a prototype. Will this be okay and would we move on without any level of accountability and just normalizing situation the relationship with Israel and with the Israeli society that's supporting the government, or will there be an. An accountability? And the thing is, what is going to happen there is going to follow on many other issues in the world. It's going to be applied because it's either we live in a world with one standard or double standards and hypocrisy. And I think people want one standard. They don't want supremacy and unequal rights and different privilege for different people. So this is one second part I feel despite all of the pain, I mean the genocide, more than 100,000 lives estimated that has been taken by the Israeli army directly more than 70 and indirectly, which means people who were injured and people who died of starvation and so on, more than 30,000. And.

Luckily, despite all of this pain, it's happening at this time because now there is a rise with the AI and the fabrication in terms of videos and information. So we get roughly few years from now before people, if we don't have regulations in place, people would stop knowing what is truth and what is real and what's not. So it happened just before the shift and they can change that period. Now will accountability take place? It must. Because if accountability doesn't take place after this, whoever has power, can do whatever they want, can ethnically cleanse people, genocide people, kill people, commit crimes against humanity and fabricate the truth because we would not have a direct access to the truth. And the regulation is related between those big tech companies.

Techno, feudalism and governments. If the governments are unchecked and they don't check those big tech companies.

We will be dominated for so many years. And that's the scary thing about it. And that's why the Palestinian issue is the issue of the 21st century.

[B]

Yes. You mentioned the mates earlier. I'm good friends with both of the sons. In fact, I just had coffee with Daniel the other day, who's amazing. And I've had. I was the first one to interview both of them together. They had never done a joint interview. And I was like, that has to happen. You both are incredible. We did that about a year ago, but I did. I too have great respect for Gabor. We did an event with him back in May and at New York Society for Ethical Culture sold out event with him and Chris Hedges, who's also an incredible human. And yeah, I'm so grateful for the way that the three of them together with all their different gifts and skills and what they bring to the table have.

It's a powerful, powerful legacy.

[C]

It's beautiful what they are doing and it means a lot to. To me as a Palestinian and it also renews my faith in humanity. I haven't met his sons.

[B]

I will introduce you.

[C]

That would be nice.

[B]

All of you need to know each other.

[C]

But. But Gabor and I have a very special relationship and I, I hold, I hold very.

Loving position for him in my heart.

[B]

Amazing.

[C]

I love Gabor.

[B]

I love that.

[C]

And I would love to meet his sons too.

[B]

Okay, make that happen. Okay, let's come to sort of current day, last couple years.

[C]

You.

[B]

We are in the vicinity of Columbia University.

Where over the past couple years a lot has happened all over this widespread campus. And I live close to here as well in Harlem.

Mahmoud Khalil's story got really big. But you were there along with many others for those months and months and months.

Standing up for Palestine in a very hostile environment. As everybody here. We saw the videos and I saw it in person a lot over those months. Talk to me about. So you, you're. You were a student at the time, getting your undergrad, correct? At, at Columbia. And yeah, all this is going on and there are the, obviously the encampments and Hens hall and all the things that were going on.

Tell me about the kind of Months leading up to this past April, which is when you, you know, your story, I think, went way more public because you.

Went to what you were. You thought was a good meeting, a meeting that would get you. Well, the final step, right. One more step closer or the final step.

[C]

It is supposed to be the final.

[B]

Supposed to be the final step to getting your citizenship. And instead, from that day, April 15 to now, things have been very.

Insecure for your future here.

[A]

So talk a little bit about the.

[B]

Last couple years being in this Columbia environment, but then let's talk for a few minutes about those.

What I imagine were.

Hard, horrifying, confusing weeks in detention.

[A]

In prison, not knowing if you'd end.

[B]

Up in Louisiana or if they would ship you. Like they've obviously shipped people off to places that they've never been to before, have never lived. So you could end up in the Gulag in El Salvador.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Or, you know, wherever. So. Yeah.

[A]

What's the last.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Few months been like for you?

[C]

Well.

It is the past two years, more than two years, has been very challenging and difficult. The movement here at Colombia. I was the major person to envision it and to build it from scratch, to build the coalition. And we built the largest coalition in the history of Colombia. We brought so many people together. And I was the major voice in this coalition and a major organizer. I've done that because of the genocide, wanted to stop this genocide in any way possible. And we knew that what's going to happen. I knew what's going to happen at Columbia is going to affect every other university in America and possibly around the world too. And I said, you can go and see my quotes from November of 2023. I said, this is the largest piece of the dominoes. The moment Colombia is.

Basically coming to justice, other would follow. If we succeed, if we succeed here, every major university will succeed. And if we fail, every other university would. Would fail.

Now, I continued being a prominent organizer.

During that period. And we planned, you know, people see the encampment. It was a long process of bringing people together, educating people, making them discipline.

Helping to raise awareness, mobilizing, testing out different methods, passing referendums here on campus for divestment from Israel.

Holding events.

Bringing speakers, exposing what's the issue at hand. This was like a long process. So we started.

Before, actually October 7th, the vision to build a coalition. And after October 7th, we just use that moment to bring people together because there is no human in their own mind and right mind would accept seeing tens of thousands of children being killed in an indiscriminate way.

The way hospitals being bombed, worship places, mosques and churches being destroyed. And we see Israel using the most lethal weapons on, like, people, on civilian people. So we were able to build because students here, they are moved for humanity. And at some point, we started planning an escalation, a peaceful escalation. It's part of your civil rights here, actually. The right to protest, right of assembly, the right to speak.

And we started planning the encampment. And we planned it for four months.

Literally about four months.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

From the winter break until it took place. And I stepped back from it. At some point, there was. I saw that there is better direction than staying in the leadership of the encampment. It took place, it crashed, but it raised big awareness. That's a success. And it created an amazing infrastructure for people to be connected on important issues. And I was targeted in January of 2025 by Betar and Quinari Mission. And I was actually the first to be targeted, the first student activist organizer to be targeted. Because it was late January. Mahmoud was not in the picture at that time. He participated in different parts, but we had two complete different rules and places in terms of.

How we mobilized for Palestine. And what happened is they called for my deportation after Trump was inaugurated.

And what I've done, I say thank, I give gratitude. It's funny to say that I learned from the Israeli apartheid forces how they functioned in the west bank, how to be extra cautious and how to.

How to stay safe and to secure myself. So I was not exposed, to be picked up and detained easily by ice. And all of a sudden they become Mahmoud. And he was the first. So. And, you know, his wife was pregnant. Part of why. And he lasted the longest in prison. Part of why. His story is.

Much bigger. But I was the last student activist, even though I was the first. First to be targeted, but I was the last to be picked up.

[B]

To be picked up.

[C]

And I knew, Part of me knew that this is a trap. They wanted to pick me up, they were looking for me. They couldn't find me. And they sent me an interview for my citizenship. And I speak with the lawyers. I was prepared with many different.

We had drafts for the courts, and I had a network of people who would basically come in and support. And I said to the lawyers, when I evaluated it, if there is a place that I would prefer to be detained in, it's Vermont. Yeah. So that's why I decided to go.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I learned from what happened with other students. So I prepared. I took the right.

The right tips. For preparation legally with the community, with the representatives, and with the. With the media, everything was in place.

[B]

Therefore, your intuition said, this is a trap.

[C]

Yeah, my intuition knew it's a trap. And even though some of the legal team, most of the legal team, they said, most likely it's just a normal, you know, interview. And I said, we have to prepare for the worst because I have strong feelings about it. So we. I ended up being the last to be detained, and they could not. I am the only student activist or activist, academic activist, who they were not able to send to Louisiana. So I stayed in Vermont.

We missed the flight that was supposed to take me to Louisiana. I stayed in Vermont, and that's why I didn't stay that long. Sixteen days in prison. And then I walked out without any processing because the judge said, this is. He's being targeted based on his free speech, and he's a peaceful man. And look at all of these testimonies, testimonies and letters of declarations from all people and many Jews and Israelis, too, who wrote about my character and about my work. And I literally walked out of the. Out of the court without any processing. The thing that is significant in my case, in every other situation where students or academics like Khan Mansouri were targeted, there was a sense of panic and fear there.

In my case, I went to this not having any level of fear and trusting that I will be okay. So.

When I was detained, I walked out of the interview while my hands were coughed, and I gave the V sign and a smile to the camera. I'm not afraid. And when I was in prison and some representatives, including Senator Peter Welch, came and visited me, and he recorded a video, he said, how could you be this positive? I said, because I trust that justice will be served, and I'm not afraid. And when I was released and I gave a speech in front of the court, unexpected, unprepared for it, and I said to President Trump and his Cabinet, I am not afraid of you. And the idea that I wanted to communicate to people that if you have deep beliefs in your issue, an issue about justice.

The truth is with you, and justice will be with you. And therefore, we should not panic and be afraid, because all what they want to do is to limit our imagination and put us in a state of reaction and panic, and this is not going to help with the movement. So this is the story. Now, since my release.

Which was roughly.

May 1, roughly it was April 30.

I have been dealing with a number of cases, and the government is insisting on Punishing me. Because now they are appealing to the Second Circuit. This is the second level of the federal system of justice. They're appealing and they're saying that he should be put in prison.

While I'm fighting my legal fight about deportation, which I've been targeted based on my free speech.

And basically advocating for Palestine and for human rights and protesting a genocide. So they're trying to put me back in prison. We're waiting for this case, for the decision from the second circuit to come out. Took place October 30th. We don't know when it will come out, but it's going to be a big, a big decision and it will set a precedent. Because if they succeed in suspending the habeas corpus, which is detaining somebody unjustly, if they succeed in my case, it's gonna apply to so many people in this country, certainly every non citizen, and eventually it will make it to citizens, which is.

Technically, it's an attack on the First Amendment rights.

[B]

I'm sure there are many things you can't say about what's going on. This is a, obviously a huge and high level sort of thing.

What do you think?

What trajectory do you think this is going to take? Where do you think this is going? Because you're right. Like, this is a, this is a humongous.

Thing that if they're able to. If they're able to succeed, if Empire is able to succeed here, it can set a precedent for them to do. They're looking for. Empire is so scared right now. Like, even though they look big and confident, they're so scared because more than ever, more than ever before, people aren't scared of them. Like, Empire only thrives if people are afraid of them. Because they're just, it's. They're all. They're really puny, you know, it's kind of like the wizard, right? In the wizard of Oz, right? You think it's this big wizard. It's actually some cowardly guy, you know, moving some, some levers. It's the same thing, I think with like Trump is a. He's a large man that is actually a very tiny man. He's hurt, he's traumatized, he's horrible because he's been hurt and he has never got any help. But it's all those people trying to run things, right? So they thrive on people being scared of them. I'm sure it pissed the shit out of people. When you stood in front of that prison, you know, when you are in front of detention, when you came out and said, I'm not afraid of you. That's the worst thing that they could ever hear. You could say, I hate you. They love that stuff. You could say, you're the worst.

[A]

They love that stuff when you say.

[B]

I'm not afraid of you. So one thing that I've noticed the last couple of years, and I know I asked you a question and then here I am going, but the last couple years I've just noticed that, like, I've seen more.

[A]

I've seen.

[B]

I've seen you come out of detention with the smile. I've seen the, you know, the, the statements you've made and the lack of fear. I notice it. And that's the. The next and maybe last section that we'll tackle today is the. The spirituality behind sort of what makes you who. Who you are, that kind of person that cannot fear. But one thing I've seen so much of the last couple years, just people not being, you know, getting arrested, getting treated poorly. There's this one video that I'll never forget. It brings me so much joy, even though something bad is happening. There's this young person in Germany and they're protesting, and they're just looking right at the police and just saying over and over again, I'm not afraid of you. In the, in the. In the police punches this protester right in the face. Blood just starts coming down.

[C]

I saw that.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[C]

It's.

[B]

The immediate reaction is, I'm still not, like, I'm not afraid of you.

[C]

Exactly right.

[B]

And that. That has to hurt them. So, like, that's the worst thing, because all they have is their power. They've got nothing else.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So all that to say, this is a.

[B]

Whatever happens here will have, you know, lasting effects for good or for bad. So, yeah, kind of.

[C]

How.

[B]

What are you feeling?

[C]

Yeah, the thing is, you have to keep in mind that the state has a monopoly over violence.

And what does that mean? If the state has a monopoly over violence? They want not only to deter you from doing something, but they want you to always. Certain states like, what's happening now. They want you always to be afraid of the state. And this is like. Like part of their deterrence is to create that fear and panic in certain situations. But when you are fighting for a rightful purpose, you actually cannot be afraid because you are fighting against basically what the state is doing, which is corruption. Now, what defines the state here is the most fundamental document.

Which is the Constitution. What the state is doing, the government right now is violating the most sacred document in this country, which is the Constitution. And let me be clear, the Constitution is about the promise that.

Wants to deliver, aspires. Aspires to deliver. And it has not delivered this promise for minority groups, for the Native Americans and for the African Americans and for different minorities. But what they are doing now, they are trying to hush people and prevent people from actually delivering the promise or holding the Constitution accountable for the promise that it aspires and the promise that it wants to deliver. And.

They are going against the Constitution in an authoritarian way, Very authoritarian. So who's the enemy?

I don't believe in an idea of an enemy, but an enemy in this situation is those who are violating the Constitution and human rights, because human rights are also related to the Constitution. Since Eleanor Roosevelt and this country established the creating human rights and again, double standard in its application. The enemy, if there is an enemy, it's the systems. So those people come, they lead systems, and the systems subject others to injustices, systematic discriminations and systematic injustice in this country and outside. And what we need to do is to understand how the system functions. So the system is fueled and controlled and driven by corporate power that puts people like Trump and others who benefiting, and they're getting paid by corporate power in order to direct and to use the system in their own way that benefits them. So the military industrial complex is a big deal. And now in the military industrial complex, tech companies are a huge deal, part of it as well. So what we are seeing here in this country, yes, they are using fear and.

They are trying to intimidate and to control people, because people also becoming aware that the issue actually is an issue between those who control corporates, who have so much money, the less than 1% of America controlling the politics in America, and everybody else who just want to live in peace, they don't want an empire. They want to live in dignity and safety and to be able to raise their children and to afford living a life. And this is the real danger for those who are running the state. So where Palestine comes, if you developed an attitude and a model for not being afraid and for speaking up and not allowing for the fear to control you. And to be very clear that this is the direction that we are headed, we are not reacting to their own distractions. They're trying to distract tractors. And this can be transferred from one thing to another. And that's why they targeted universities, because universities will work as a place of descent, of organizing, of creating thoughts and of creating unity. And the movement against authoritarianism and fascism that we See unfolding.

[B]

Yeah, yes, yes to all of that. And I do believe that.

I'm hopeful.

That this is the beginning of the crumbling of the American empire and other empires. Like it's going to be a hard. We have a hard road ahead of us because they won't.

Rarely, maybe never, but at least rarely does anyone with power give it up willingly. Once you have it, you like it, you know, and I believe they can and I've seen it done. But most of the time, especially when you have, you know, weapons, when you have guns and bombs and you have those things on your side, it's harder to give it up. But I am hoping that I'm so grateful for your work and witness in the world because you're one of many who are doing it. But these are the cases that I think are really going to determine whether this empire continues to grow or whether we can capitalize on the cracks in empire and just start causing it to crumble a little bit quicker.

[C]

Yeah, the Palestinian issue and how is it being treated and how the activists are being treated are serving as the canary of the mine in America. So what happens to us when will be a big indication to where this country is heading?

And when I think about it, I also think that people have to separate that an empire that goes and wants to control other people and to exploit resources and so on. But there is love that you can have for this country and for this community and to bring people together and to make I believe the difference. The change will happen in a non violent way because you can't fight this fire with fire. You fight fire with water. And we've seen that with mlk, the shift that happened, we've seen that with Gandhi, the shift that has happened, they had all of the power, but they could not continue dominating people because the consciousness and the feeling and the civil disobedience, they can't control it just by brute force.

[B]

Let's use that to head into our last.

[C]

How are we doing on time by the way?

[B]

It's a little after three. Okay, so we got a few more minutes, we get a few more minutes and then we both got to move on to other things. This afternoon you just pointed out, you just said that, and I know this from other things that you've said, that you believe that us getting free and us getting free is going to happen through non violence. So there's so many people I respect that believe that and there are many people that I respect that don't believe that, that believe. And for me, honestly, and we're going to talk about some, some spirituality and spiritual practices here.

[A]

I go back and forth.

[B]

I, I want to, I want so desperately to all the time be in the, we can accomplish this through non violence camp. I want to all the time.

[A]

And I see many examples of that happening.

[B]

And then I also, you know, have so much.

Understanding and even in the respect, but definitely understanding of movements and people that chose to fight fire with fire, to take things by force when they were met with people that in no way, shape or form, not in this life or the next, we're going to give up whatever the stronghold, the power. So we are both spiritual people. Well, I think, I think all people are spiritual people. But we take our spirit.

[C]

Even those who don't know.

[B]

Even those who don't know it. I believe that, I believe that.

[A]

I'm not trying to push it on people.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And maybe they'll figure that out in their timing, but I believe we are, you know. Oh, God. Who, who's. I'm blanking on the name of the person who sort of coined this phrase about us being. We're not, you know, humans having a spiritual experience, but spiritual beings having a human experience.

[C]

This is the reality of it. Yeah.

[B]

And I believe that.

The path that I've chosen to work all that out is Christianity. Christianity was thrust upon me as a kid. I didn't really have a choice. But as I've grown up, even when I tried to leave Christianity for all the reasons that one would leave Christianity, there's a lot of bad faith Christians out there. They're partially the reason that we're in the mess that we're in today, both here in the US Supporting Trump and Zionist Christians, which were all the people that I grew up in. So they, my people, my background is very much a part of this. But even when I tried to leave it, I couldn't. And that's a longer story for a different day, but. And you have a different faith practice and faith background. One that I respect a lot and one that if I ever left. Well, two things. If I ever left my current faith, I would probably join your faith. But also as a universalist Christian, one, as a Christian who doesn't have any. Like, I don't think we're the only way. I think we're all figuring it out together. And I find so much in all the other practices that really inform my faith. So I can embody so much of Buddhism in my faith as well. So tell me, how did you find your faith? How did you find Buddhism or how Did Buddhism find you.

[A]

And so tell.

[B]

That story however you want, but also how does that play into how you're responding to.

The whole experience of your life, which has been, I'm sure, wonderful moments and memories, but also horrific memories of loved ones being murdered and killed and you growing up in a concentration camp and everything you've experienced up until.

[A]

The last few months where you were.

[B]

Kidnapped for no other reason except for you said told the truth and you're Palestinian, that's why you got arrested, that's why they're trying to deport you.

[A]

That's that can for a lot of.

[B]

Other people that might do the opposite of what it's causing in you. That, I mean, anger, bitterness, just a.

[A]

Lot of fuck yous, right?

[B]

And I don't get that sense from you. I'm sure you have. Maybe you have some fuck you moments, but it just seems like there's a lot of.

Peace and a lot of love. So talk about Buddhism, talk about your philosophy, how you see things. Because I'm really interested in.

[A]

Learning from.

[B]

It and I know our listeners will as well. Thank you.

[C]

There is a lot to cover in this, so let's see how I would do by sickly sharing.

There is a lot to cover.

But I am still. My thoughts are lingering about the idea of non violence. And there are people who believe that violence is inevitable.

For mass movements. You have to have it in.

You have to make it safe for people to participate. And generally speaking, under democratic systems they are more effective. But under authoritarian systems and especially if the use of forests is the mean to crush any dissent and this what's happening and what has been going on in Palestine, then you can't hold everybody to the same standard because it's such a high bar to say to people, I want you to abide by nonviolence.

This understanding for me came from studying different people and also from the understanding of Buddhism. To start with. I was raised as a Muslim and I never renounce Islam because it has to taught me a lot of beautiful things. There are fundamental ethics and principles in Islam that are very powerful. And actually Islam taught me about justice a lot and taught me about.

Forgiveness too and taught me about the need to fight for justice and taught me.

About the need to identify with the oppressed. There are many beautiful things in Islam.

With Buddhism.

It has brought my spiritual practice home where I feel it in my body, it's practical. At any moment I meditate and I also follow the basic principles of Buddhism, which is related to the feelings and to the mind. It Transforms my energy. How I was introduced to Buddhism.

It's funny because I am spiritual in a way that I attend and I belong to different communities. So one of the communities in Vermont where my home is and where I've been living for the past 11 years now almost 12 years, is the Unitarian Universalists. So you said you are Universalist. And this reminds me of the church that I go to. It is part of my community.

[B]

When you're home. Yeah.

[C]

It's beautiful. Yeah. And a number of the community members there are also Buddhists. So they welcome all different faiths. And actually some of them ended up there because Thich Nhat Hanh was supposed to build a temple there that did not work out. Yeah. So I learned about Buddhism or about meditation there. And I saw the influence of meditation on my being. The regulation of emotions, the calmness, the level, the heightened awareness that I would have in it feels like magic. Very simple practice for five to ten minutes. Transforms again. Your way of seeing life, especially if you carry with you heavy emotions of loss and the trauma and being triggered. So that where I developed my interest in Buddhism. And then I dived deeper by studying different Buddhists books. Coming to Colombia, too much distraction here and heightened emotions I belonged to. I started meditating with a Buddhist.

Community circle. I ended up becoming the president of the Buddhist association in a matter of a year. And I started connecting deeper and deeper with the spirituality, with the religion itself and understanding beyond meditation. What does like what's the whole purpose of Buddhism? Alleviating all sufferings. What is the source of all suffering? Attachment. Attachment from where? Bodily attachments are the source of all suffering.

How do you let go of attachment? It teaches you how to let go of attachment. Teaches you how to empathize ties with yourself and with the others and how to use compassion. It also teaches you about the non separation that we have the illusion that we are separated. Speaking of spiritual beings. And it teaches you how to connect and how to relate to everything that exists. Whether if it's a human, a tree or an animal, we are part of this existence. So it has helped me big time. And especially after the genocide, so. Or during the genocide because it has not ended yet.

[B]

But after it started.

[C]

After it started. Exactly. And I. What I noticed is I was like deep in very deep pain. And I lost a number of family members during that time. Not only the memories that it was triggering, not only a sense of injustice that I was feeling, but because very close people to me were killed. And I noticed that every time I am able to like, the more the heat is.

The practice reassures me that I can be centered and more present and more aware. And this happened during organizing. I had moments where I was angry, of course. And the moment I come from this moment, and I meditate, I become more aware, regulate my emotions and so on. I come in a bitter world, in a bitter way to the world. And similarly with me being targeted by the government, because I say this is the ultimate test to my practice, if I am being delusional or not.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So they take me. I don't know where they're taking me. As you mentioned, maybe sending me back to the west bank, sending me outside of the country. How long will I be in prison? And all what I did, I stayed present and I kept my body clear of tension, clear of fear. And for me, the moment I saw the lawyer, I said to my lawyer, tell people that I am here in prison, but not imprisoned, because my spirit is free, and that my cell now is my heaven because I am meditating and I am reflecting.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

This is how I felt. I wasn't exaggerating. She said, are you okay? Do we need to call a psychedelic? You know, you don't sound okay. You don't sound. You're smiling, you're happy, you're just like, this is not the situation, that this is not how people in prison would look like. And in prison, I was able to connect with a lot of detainees, prisoners, some of them who are convicted with crimes. And I had that positive energy. I was not just focused and centered and isolated. It was a beautiful experience, even though it was painful, but you can see the beauty even during times of pain. This is how it felt to me. And.

I am a big believer that all emotions come from two roots.

Spectrum of emotions. You get positive emotions, root love, negative emotions, root fear, people who are coming into this world. You come, if you come with anger, even though you can justify the anger with because I love justice, I'm being angry. You are still coming from a place of fear because your body is tense, your body is not at peace, and your body is not in a state of love. And I am a big believer that the two energies are coming into a clash where love is going to dominate. Supremacist motivated by fear.

Authoritarians motivated by fear, people who discriminate against others motivated by fear. And the issue, we will not be able to transform, really the conflict if we are treating them with the same way that they are treating us. Because even if Palestinians.

Not even when Palestinians are liberated.

If Israelis are not liberated, from their own trauma, supremacy and fear, we will not be feeling well.

Because this is a holistic experience that we would want to have. And this time it's not only about defeating the system. This, the system has to be defeated, but transforming the people who are under the system to become healed people, people who, who are not reacting to a trauma and fear, but people who are being transformed into part of a larger, more beautiful community. This is how we can bring equality and this is how we can bring also.

Distribution of wealth and this is how we can bring safety when we care for each other rather than fear each other.

[B]

When you share this philosophy of love and of life with fellow Palestinians or allies, activists, leftists.

I'm a full blown leftist. I'm as about as left as you can go. And I spend, I find myself spending more time annoyed at leftists for how.

Intolerant and how the lack of love that is involved in our work. Like for me being a leftist, because it's, because it's all about, it's all about everybody getting free. Everybody. And they're like, well I, I believe in collective. I believe everybody should get free, but not them. They don't really want Israelis to get free from this prison. Zionists, they don't really want MAGA people to get free from. They would prefer just, just, just erratic like get them off the planet. Like we don't, I don't want to.

[A]

Deal with that long.

[B]

That's hard work to get someone to, to be freed from a, a prison of their mind, a prison of fear. That's hard work. It's easier just be like imagine a world without them and then we just start with the people that are more.

[A]

Are more open to change.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like, well that's not like, that's not the work. I don't think like that's too easy to be like. Well, I just imagine we're all without Zionists and without my MAGA uncle and without this. And it's like that's not going to happen.

[A]

They're still going to be around.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So when Palestine is free, you still have all these, these prisoners that, prisoners of fear that we have to. Somehow we got to figure that out.

[C]

We got to work that out 100%. So how do you, how do you, how do you transform fear? First of all, what's Palestine and Israel is going to, to serve or Palestinians and Israelis, let's put it in this way, what's going to happen there will become a model and if it works out, and I believe it Will it? Will the rest of the world will learn about how can you transform that?

[B]

Agreed.

[C]

How do you, how do you tackle down fear and transform it? There is education because fear comes from, from a place of ignorance most of the time. So you educate people and you make them aware. Second one is trauma healing, because when we are traumatized, we are not necessarily rational in our way of reacting. And the third one is just the act of love. I mean.

You can treat somebody with compassion and stand still, put them in prison, right? You can treat somebody. I mean, look at mothers. How would they treat their children? The child could be causing a mess, breaking things. And a mother who is balanced and loving would say, no, you're not allowed to do that. This is not right. Go into your room and close the door. And there is another way of doing it. You, you put, you put them and you hit them and you put them in a room and you, you yell at them and so on. So in order to bring the shift, we have to really come from an open and big heart. And our priority is not only stopping the harm, which is a priority, but also after that, to help.

Treating it from the root causes. Now the issue is, and I've witnessed this in many circles, I am an organizer, a hardcore organizer. Like, this is my bread and butter to organize and to build unity and coalition and to help people resolve issues internally. That's my niche. But when you look at different groups, the moment you allow anger and fear and suspicion and reactions to. To come into place towards the other, it starts backfiring internally.

There is no way you can continue building on an energy of fear without getting in internal fight. And what internal fight does, it burns you out. You get burned out and people fall out of relationship because care is no longer centered in it. So in order to build a mass movement or a successful movement, a successful coalition, you have always to address feelings and emotions and to come with the energy of love and care towards, and tolerance towards each other. That's not justifying the wrong internally, but this is empathizing and holding the scale of justice very firmly. That this is not just. We will not allow for it to happen, but instead of punishing people, is taking the necessary steps to prevent the harm and transform them. This is like, this is like.

101 organizing, you know, lessons that you would teach from the beginning. This is what we and people forget because the emotions get heightened. So this is.

Yeah, this is how I see Buddhism so important and necessary in my life because this daily practice reminds me of this ideology, the theory of change. It's the change starts from within. I want to see peace in the world, but I can't see peace of in the world if I am not actually feeling it in my body 100%.

[B]

And a lot of times we, we don't care. It's. We don't worry about this. It's just like I want it out there. And we fail to recognize that you can't do that unless you're exactly. Also experiencing it.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

And I'll say this as we wrap up here. I forget who said this and I hate that I can't remember their name right now. But this idea of just based on what you just said about.

Peace and love and the kind of world that we're pursuing, the kind of world that we're pursuing, there's place in the world. There's place in the world that we're trying to create for everyone but every person. But not every idea, not all the ideas can be there, all the people can. Because we're capable of change. We're capable of moving away from destructive beliefs and ideas. So all the people.

I want them all, as many as possible in this new world that we're creating. But not all the ideas. Some of the ideas got to go. And that's where I see maybe the sort of the. It's the long work, it's the hard work, it's the non violence, it's the. And for some, some groups in some places the violence. But it's all working toward a world that is for everyone but not all ideas.

[C]

Well, if you think of it, it's. It's very interesting. I think that ideas and emotions are related to each other feelings. So a place, an open, A place that is welcoming is where you have open heartedness towards other people. And censoring ideas has not worked out. So you have to. To tackle the ideas by creating an educational system. Why this idea is not right. You cannot shut them down. If you shut them down, this is what hap. What's happening in the world now we get a democratic world. Before they suppressed. Suppressed people organized under the table and now they rise all the sudden because the ideas were not addressed at an early stage and they were shot back down. And there has to be a way where the cancel culture and the shutdown culture is not necessarily the moving forest but you have principles and you have clarity about how are you. What, what, what are the rules and agreements that you would want to get everybody together and what are the dangerous ideas and why they are dangerous to educate people about them.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Okay, we're out of time.

Will you come on for another one?

[C]

It would be an honor for sure.

[B]

I think we have more to discuss. I want to. I want to talk about these things more and maybe we put this one out, get feedback from people what they want to hear more about and we can do another one if you're down for that. Because there's so much more I want to talk about, but you need to go somewhere. I have to go somewhere. And friend, this has been wonderful. Thank you for sharing.

The hard stories, hard memories. Thank you for putting your literal neck and body on the line for this. This cause, which, as you and I have both pointed out, is the moral issue of our time. How we feel and how others feel about Palestine more than any other issue tells me what I need to know about you because this issue is so important for the future of.

What we're trying to do. So thank you for being a someone that's in the front of this issue and so grateful to learn from you. I'm so grateful that our friendship is.

Beginning and I hope it will blossom. I hope we do more stuff together in the future. But thank you for spending time on let's Give a Damn sharing with us. And so grateful for you.

[C]

I'm so grateful for you. Thank you for sharing the truth, speaking of.

Standing with humanity, with justice, with the Palestinian people, and for amplifying and sharing my stories and my voice and my struggle. My struggle is your struggle and mine is yours. So I'm sure that this is just the beginning.

[B]

Absolutely. Until next time.

[A]

Friends. Thank you so much for showing up and for spending some time with Bosan and me today. To find links for everything mentioned in today's conversation and to keep up with all things let's Give a damn, visit letsgivadam.com Please share this episode with a friend. Please leave us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And please show up next week. We have many more incredible conversations coming your way. You can reach out anytime and for any reason at hello at let's giveadam. Com, Keep giving a damn. I love you all. Bye for now.