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- [00:01]
A
Hello friends and damn givers. Welcome to the let's Give a Damn Podcast, a show where I have conversations with incredible artists, activists and troublemakers. People who give a damn and who aim to lead the planet much better than they found it. I'm your host, Nick lapara. Thank you so much for being here today. A quick reminder friends, right here at the top that you can show your support for let's Give a Damn in various ways. You can join our Patreon for the price of a cup of coffee per month. You can follow us on social media and engage with our content. You can share this episode with your friends and enemies. I don't care. You can buy some of our merch on our website letsgivadam.com or maybe you're an organization or company that aligns with us and you'd like to sponsor some episodes. There are so many ways to support and I invite you to explore which ones are right for you. And if you were to ask me which one is the best one or the most immediate one, I would recommend checking out our Patreon because it does cost money, because it does cost time to make these episodes. And again, for the price of a cup of coffee, you can help us advance this mission and grow this community. You can reach out to me anytime with any questions at hello, let's giveadam.com okay friends, my guest this week is the wonderful Shabnam Mogharabi. She is an entertainment Executive producer and New York Times bestselling author with 20 years of experience in mission driven media. She currently runs the Joy Brigade, a boutique film and media production company. Prior to that, Shabnam was an Executive Vice President at film company Participant and also co founded the uplifting content studio that many of you probably know about. Soulpancake with our mutual friend and multiple times past podcast guest and actor Rainn Wilson, and she ran Soul Pancake. As CEO for nearly a decade, soulpancake amassed over a billion video views and received dozens of awards. She and Rain are still collaborating today on Rain's Soul Boom platform, which seeks to unlock a modern spiritual revolution through through playful, practical and profound media. She is a Henry Crown Fellow, a member of the Aspen Global Leadership Network, and serves on a number of private and nonprofit boards. She also got a certification in Positive Psychology in her spare time, as if she has any, and is a frequent keynote speaker on the Power of joy and Storytelling. And if you type her name into YouTube, you will see many, many, many talks on joy and storytelling. Three years ago, Rainn wrote a book called Soul Boom. A book Valerie Core called, quote, brilliant, humorous, and deeply wise, Rainn Wilson makes the case for a spiritual revolution like no other. With humility that lands in the heart, Rain invites us into a profound conversation on death and despair, God in transcendence and and love as a revolutionary force. The result? An electrifying manifesto on how to transform the world from the inside out. Let Soul Boom ignite and inspire you as it has me, end quote. I shared that quote because it's fantastic and I could not have said it better myself. I hope you have read Soul Boom. Now, three years later, the Soul Boom workbook written by Rainn and and Shabnam, is out and you're going to want to get it. It's a really helpful companion to the book. I'm a huge fan of journaling and documenting the change and growth that we experience and that happens in our lives. And this is a wonderful way to do it in just a few minutes a day. In this conversation, of course, we also talk about change, making her incredible career, family, so much more. This conversation is a blast. So let's get to it. Before we begin, a quick reminder, as always, that you can email me anytime and for any reason@hello, letsgividam.com you can ask questions, recommend future guests, tell me how much you love or hate the show. Anything goes. I just love hearing from you. And don't forget, if you prefer to watch your podcasts instead of listen to them, we're on YouTube as well. And now let's get right into my conversation with the wonderful Shabnam Mogharabi. Let's go. Welcome to the let's Give a Damn podcast. Shabnam, hello.
- [04:42]
B
How are you? Thank you for having me.
- [04:44]
A
I am well. Thank you. I hope you are well as well, all things considered.
- [04:50]
B
All things considered.
- [04:51]
A
Yeah, all things considered. I've been on a journey of trying to figure out how to answer the normal greetings that we have to answer 20 times a day because it feels, I mean, ever since I've become an adult, it feels disingenuous to just spurt out. I'm doing great. I mean, because life is hard, but especially the last few years with just so much going on locally and globally. And I had a friend the other day that it took some, it takes some time to get this out, but they were like, everything in my control is doing well, everything outside of my control. I'm just sort of, you know, figuring it out. And that kind of that even just putting that divide in there is like, oh, yeah, like I have a roof over my head. We have food on the table each evening. The kids are healthy. You know, they get a runny nose and a this every once in a while, but we're healthy and we have clothes like, as we, you know, we were talking about before we even turned the mic on, like, what we can control and all things considered, yeah, we're blessed. Blessed as hell. Like, blessed beyond measure. And the world just feels like. Oh, my God. Feels like a lot. So I'm. I'm so glad.
- [05:58]
B
I. I 100% agree. And my mantra has been two things can be true at the same time, which is that I am very fulfilled and happy and grateful for my life and my slice of the world that I have in my orbit. But I. My heart breaks every day for what's happening in the world. So I. Two things can be true at this.
- [06:20]
A
Two things absolutely can be true. Very rarely is anything either or. It's usually both and. Yep, absolutely. Well, I'm so glad we're doing this. We have been trying to do this for a couple months and I think.
- [06:32]
B
We made it happen.
- [06:34]
A
We made it happen. We are here. I feel like every episode I've done lately has been like, we've been trying. It's just life is lifing and so. But we are here. I got the privilege of meeting you IRL a couple of months ago when you were here in New York for the book launch with our friend Rainn Wilson and your longtime collaborator and friend and fellow troublemaker and entrepreneur. And we'll talk about Rain in this conversation, I'm sure. But it was such. It was such. I was thinking back as I was just, oh, it's on the calendar. We're doing this today. I'm so excited. I was just thinking about our first meeting and how lovely it was. We sat around, talked for a couple hours over coffee in the middle of midtown, and it was so nice to meet you and actually get some time together and add a couple of book events later that week before getting to talk here. So I'm so thrilled this is happening.
- [07:31]
B
Yeah. I feel like we've been in each other's orbit for so long and you have interviewed my co founders, you've interviewed Rain, you've interviewed everyone in my orbit, and yet we had not sat down and actually chatted ourselves, which was really interesting.
- [07:44]
A
Long time ago, when soulpancake was up and running, I remember Goal Reese, who had. Who is another co founder of Soulpancake Co author of a book that you wrote as well. She had Invited me to pitch content ideas and so I know that we emailed way back when, way back. So yeah, we have been in each other's orbit for coming up on eight, nine years, which is, which is crazy. It's been a blessing to be in the soul. Pancake Rainn Wilson Goal Ray's orbit. And now, now we've completed the whole. Not trifle. The universe has been the universe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a great. It's a great universe to be in, I guess. First question is how. How are you? We're into a new year. You just had a birthday. Happy birthday. Thank you. Having a birthday as a. As a full adult that has all these feelings and that is aware of what's going on and is trying to bring love and joy into the world while all this shit is happening. It's a lot. And so how things happening in Iran? You have relatives there. Just a lot going on. So how do we find you and your heart and your full self today?
- [08:58]
B
Today? It's funny, I actually was reflecting on this, so I actually turned 46 and I was thinking, oh, okay, so if I live to 90, I now officially entering. Let's hope I live to the age of 90. I am officially entering the second half of my life, like, in a. In a like, profound way. And I, I was like, wow, I've accomplished so many amazing things in the first 45 years. Like, what is the next 45 going to look like? And I have, I have so many blessings in my life in this moment, but the last few years have also been so hard in so many ways. And this duality. I was really, I've been really thinking about this and I. And I think that encapsulates how I feel right now because I have two beautiful, healthy children. I have. I'm working on projects that I really love and believe in and care about. I feel like I'm doing work that is the most aligned with who I am. And yet, and yet, you know, I see all of these people who look like me and my aunts and my uncles and my grandparents in Iran hoping and fighting and showing up to say, hey, we want to change, and being attacked and, you know, killed in the streets. We've only spoken one time to my family members who are still there, and they have no Internet, they have no electricity. The city that they're in is completely shut down. And, yeah, it's hard. It's hard to even know what's actually happening. And I also think what's really hard is that this Regime has been brutal for, you know, 45 years, and there have been so many uprisings. And so part of it is, you know, is that anything actually going to change? Because they've tried before and it hasn't, but then you still have that seed of hope of maybe this is the time, maybe this is the moment that's something changes. And I watch. I've watched quite a bit of 2 CTV, which has been doing some kind of firsthand reporting. It's. It's biased. I'm not gonna lie, it is biased, but has done a lot of kind of firsthand reporting out of Iran. And I will say, you know, there are certain things like the fact that the merchants and the bazaars are shut down that kind of make your hope a little bit stronger. So, I don't know, it's like this weird pain watching it, but hope that maybe something will change and that maybe me, a child of immigrants, refugees from Iran, will one day actually be able to go back and see this country that shaped my parents. And I feel so much connection to the culture around. So it's a lot of feelings. It's a lot of feelings and a lot of different highs and lows watching it all happen. And especially because it does feel like you're watching family members, like, these people look like everyone in my family, and I'm watching them on the street saying, hey, we want. We want freedom and we want change from this oppressive regime and wanting that so badly for them, and yet not knowing if it's going to happen. So it's. It's been hard. It's been hard to watch it all in the midst of everything else going on in the world.
- [12:06]
A
I've been thinking a lot. I would say the greatest struggle in my, like, internal. All the battles that are happening internally is my impatience at watching people and places change. Because you see, you know, when you're faced with, like, a truth about a person or an idea or a political movement or a country, a place, and you're like, well, this has to happen. Why the hell isn't it happening faster? Why isn't this person, this person I love, my relative or my thing, or this. Why isn't it changing? Why? You mentioned 40, 45 years, and I don't know what to do about that, because I. But. But then I look back on myself and I see how many iterations of myself have changed. I don't know if you've seen. This is a. A very recent example of how many shifts I've made in my life. Places that I'VE left saying, I'm no longer going to be a part of this. I'm. I'm moving along. I'm sure you've seen what happened yesterday. What's today? Tuesday? No, on Sunday at the Church of Minneapolis, where the protesters stormed it because one of the pastors was an ICE director. I've talked about this a little online, but I helped start that church 13 years ago. So 13 years ago I lived in Minneapolis. I was. I worked at another church. And it was a very, like, shitty. Like it was becoming progressively shittier as we were getting older and changing and waking up to, like, this is not okay. What. The things you're doing, the things you're saying. So a group of us left that church. It's a big church in Minneapolis, very, very well known, very famous evangelical church. And we left it, I GUESS it was 14 years ago now. 14 or 15. No, 15 years ago. So 15 years ago we left it to say we wanted to do something new. So we started this. We had this idea of a church called Cities Church, A church that was about, like, following Jesus and. And was for the city, like, everything the city needed. And we wanted to be there to sort of like, help and align ourselves with. Pretty early on some of the people in the group. It became apparent that, like, we were not going to be on the same page about how we wanted to show up in the world. Well, the guy that became the lead pastor was the one that was in the video saying, shame on the protesters. He now he's like, yeah, it's gone super viral. The president's call them in. Or the Attorney General, Pam Bondi called him up and there's opening some investigation. Like, that was a close friend of mine that.
- [14:39]
B
Wow.
- [14:40]
A
And like, our families were close. And I'm not saying he's like an evil. Like, I don't think he's. But where he ended up, where he's employing an ICE director to be a pastor slash caretaker of people in his church. Like, man, if I gave myself, I'm circling back. I gave myself grace to change in the course of 15 years to become a completely different person that was going to approach life and decisions and who I wanted to hang out with and what kind of a community I wanted to build. So much so that, like, that was 15 years ago for me. Thank God I and others in our group had the wherewithal to, like, leave that idea behind and say, we don't want anything to do with that. You know, obviously, yesterday was Martin Luther King Jr. Day and that famous Quote, the, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. And so that's what I kind of wanted to get to with all that is like, yeah, it takes a long time for regimes to fall, for empires to fall, for people to change. And so I just want to, you know, I'm saying that to you, I'm saying that to me that, like, yes, I do hope someday you can go back to your ancestral land and be safe and be in a prosperous place. I've seen photos and videos of, you know, Iran from 40, 50 is. I mean, it's probably still is. It's still gorgeous, but like, it was so gorgeous and just incredible. And some of the richest art and things that we have today are from there, you know?
- [16:10]
B
Yeah.
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A
So I hope that comes back.
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B
Yeah. No, the Iranian people are educated, cultured, kind, generous, very devoted to family and faith. I mean, these are good hearted, good hearted, hard working people and yet they don't have the freedom to pursue those things. And there's just a lot of oppression, but there's also just a lot of economic dissatisfaction. There's a lack of opportunity. There's so many other challenges. And that's for the vast majority of the population. That's not even for the Baha', is, who are the community that I belong to, where they can't have driver's licenses, they can't own businesses, they can't go to college. There's so many other challenges that they have because of, of this regime. So I hope that you're right and it's interesting, I think that what you're saying is a marker of wisdom. It is a marker of wisdom to realize that in 15 years I can change and I can grow and I can go in one direction and people I was really close with 15 years ago can also change and they can go in other directions. And it doesn't mean that who you were 15 years ago or the choices you made 15 years ago reflect on who you are today. And I think in our very quick to judge and cancel culture, I think we would all be well reminded to remember that, that people change and choices change. And you know, the party and the people we keep change. And that's just the truth of life. It's the truth of life.
- [17:42]
A
Very much the truth of life. Yeah. Amazing.
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B
Okay, I've been seeing that 2016 trend on social. Have you been seeing this on social? Everyone's posting there like a decade ago. And I actually went through my photos because, like, should I post something about this? And so I'm like, through my 2016 photos and I'm like, my God, I'm like a completely different human. Ten years ago, like, this is nuts. And I was flying high with like, amazing things happening with pancake and others. And still I was like, I remember looking at some of these photos, especially from like my personal life and not my professional life. Like, wow, it was such a different person at that time and, like, had no idea what I was doing in my personal life. But yeah, it's so funny how things ebb and flow.
- [18:22]
A
The biggest thing that I noticed with the 2016 trend was that my kids were your kids ages. You had like little toddlers, literally. And now they're, you know, eating me out of house and home and need new shoes every three weeks and. And they're awesome, they're gorgeous and they're beautiful humans, but they're a lot. That was the biggest thing. As I look back on photos. Yes, there was work stuff going on. Is the first year of the first Trump presidency. My God. But it was mostly like looking at the kids and being like, wow. Like, it's a whole different ball game now.
- [18:53]
B
Yeah. And I'm where you were 10 years ago with like little 2 and 5 year olds who run into the room every single morning at 6am like, let's play.
- [19:01]
A
And I'm like, okay, I get more sleep than you. Well, actually, I don't know. I was actually talking to my therapist today about how I'm. I don't get enough. I'm bad at sleep. But not because of the kids. It's my own stupidity now where I'm just like, too much to do. Got to stay up late and work on this. And it's like, no, actually, you'll be a much better person tomorrow for everyone if you get seven or eight hours of sleep. My guy, just go to sleep. Shut it all off. Go to sleep.
- [19:27]
B
A friend of mine, Paradise Parker, is a comedian who talks about this. The fact that, like, wait, no, I don't need to grind all the time. I need to actually rest because I'm not a literal owl. And it's a really funny clip. I'm going to send it to you because it's pretty hilarious.
- [19:42]
A
Please do. I just restarted therapy in. The main thing that I'm wanting to address with this therapist is, is. Is just that it's like I have a coach. Like, I have a coach who works with me on the professional stuff and not having to grind all the time and getting smarter and working, working smarter and not prolong whatever. All that Stuff But I was like, I think I also need it from a therapy standpoint. Like because they can address like the deep seated like lie.
- [20:08]
B
Why is it that you're drive driven to do this behavior? Yeah.
- [20:13]
A
My coach is just like stop, like shut the hell up and stop and do this. But, but I need the therapist to be like let's ask some questions about your past and let's get into it to figure out why you think you need to work 25 hours a day. My dude, slow down, slow down. We have so much to discuss here. You're a very multi hyphenate human that has done so many incredible things. Where to start? I think let's start for the sake of time. Well, can you do this? Can you give like a, like a two or three minute pre soul pancake? Here's who I am, here's where I came from. And then we'll get into some soul pancake stuff which will obviously lead us up to the workbook and sort of recent things that you're doing.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But start off with some who, what, when, where and why. Pre soulpancake sounds good.
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B
Do, do the journalism. Five W's and an H which is ironic because I studied journalism. So yeah, I, like I said I'm a child of immigrants, child of refugees and I think being the eldest daugh granddaughter, all of it of of refugees is probably my single biggest defining factor. I'm also type A Capricorn, you know all the intj, all the things that will make you one way I am that. So I've always been kind of a doer, get stuff done, wrangle people, gather them and make things happen person and that's how I grew up. And I grew up, I, you know, I always say I won the lottery. I have parents who love each other and love to me. So I, I definitely won the lottery as a kid. And not to say like I don't have little T trauma with a little T but I, but I really did feel like I grew up in a very loving household despite not having much, you know, growing up being. Being refugees. We didn't have much but, but, but very supportive family. And when I went off to college I decided I wanted to study journalism because I was curious, I was curious about other people. I like telling stories and I felt like okay, great, this, this field seems to check a lot of those boxes and went off and started working for a couple years as a journalist. Ended up getting a master's degree and we'll come back to that in a bit. But Got a master's degree and wrote my whole thesis about the need for kind of elevating philosophical, spiritual conversations in media and entertainment and magazines and storytelling and journalism. So I write my thesis about this, and I go back to working in journalism. And honestly, there were several things that happened in my career as a journalist that made me go like, wait, these are not actually the kinds of stories I want to tell. So, I mean, at one point, I stalked Lindsay Lohan into a club bathroom to get a quote for People magazine. And she was high as a kite. And I was like, what am I doing? But I think the thing that, like, really pivoted me over the edge is I wrote this article about the high drowning rates of black and brown kids. Like, that was. That was what I wrote this piece on. It was like, 27 months of research and talked to more than 90 people. It was like a big, meaty article about this issue. And the article went on to win a bunch of awards. It got picked up by the New York Times, the Red Cross, launched an inner city swim program. Like, it became a thing. It became, like, this phenomenon. And I found myself, like, wrestling with this. Like, wait a minute. I'm getting all these awards and accolades for interviews I did with parents at the absolute worst moment of their life. Like, they lost their child, Their child drowned, and they're never going to have their child back. And I just. I. I kind of found myself in this moment of, like, what. What am I doing? Like, I'm telling stories at people's worst moments. I'm stalking people in club bathrooms. Like, what am I do. This is not the kind of stories that I wanted to tell. And I found myself in this kind of low of. It was the 2008 recession. And, like, I was telling these kinds of stories and not feeling good about it. I was laying people off at work because. Because we were in the middle of this recession. And then simultaneously, on the personal side, I called off an engagement to a very unhealthy person. Like, it was a very unhealthy, toxic relationship. And we got engaged, and I ended up calling it off. And so I was at this low, low, like, low personally, low professionally low in the career, low economically. It was just a low moment. And that was when I heard Rainn Wilson on the radio. And so it was. It's. It's a real. It was a really interesting, like, coming from this, like, you know, loving family, deciding, I'm going to tell stories and be this, like, journalist who, like, tells all these amazing stories and suddenly being like, wait a minute, I don't actually like the kinds of stories I'm telling. Like, what? Why? Why does it need to. You know, why? If it bleeds, it leads. Like, what? What? Like, that's not the kinds of stories I want to tell. And so it was. It was really. It was an interesting little trajectory in those early years.
- [24:53]
A
Yeah. So when you said, did you mean literal radio that you heard Rainn Wilson on Literal Ray.
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B
Literally, I heard. I heard an interview on NPR with Rainn Wilson, this actor on the Office, a show I had not seen at that time. And I was living in D.C. and listening to this NPR interview. And they were asking him about, like, what other things, what other interest areas he had. And he talked about the fact that he's working on building a media platform about big philosophical questions. And I pulled my car over on the side of Connecticut Boulevard in Connecticut, in dc. I pulled it over because I was driving to work and I was sitting there listening and finding myself simultaneously getting very excited because, oh, my God, that's what I wrote my thesis about. But also simultaneously being like, what the f. Like, Rainn Wilson has stolen my idea. This is what I wanted to, you know, build a media platform on. So I was like, simultaneously having all these feelings, like, parked on the side of the road with my hazards on.
- [25:51]
A
So what? So what? So bridge the gap between you're on the side of the road in dc. Rain stole my idea. He probably did in a sort of a cosmic way. But no, God bless Rain. But so what happened between there and you actually connecting with Rain to then go on and build this media empire together? What happened in those. Because a lot of people probably feel similarly, but didn't get the chance, the opportunity to. And I'm not saying with like somebody famous, but, like, didn't get to connect with someone that they felt a connection with to, like, build something. So what was that like?
- [26:26]
B
Well, it's so funny. So many people are like, how did you have the confidence to reach out? And I'm like, I don't actually think I was confident. I think it was desperate. I was at such a low professionally, personally. I was just like, what's the worst that can happen? Everything is going wrong in my life anyways, so what's the worst that can happen? And I just ended up. What I ended up doing is I reached out to a bunch of friends, friends who were still in LA because I'm born and raised in Southern California. So I just reached out to a bunch of friends and family, and I was like, I have to find a way to connect with Rain Wilson. He's working on a project that I really feel strongly drawn to. I want to help him build it, like anyone, anywhere. And it took maybe like two dozen emails before I finally got connected with someone who was friends with his co founder. And so I met with the co founder, Devin Gundry and we had like a little zoom and chatted and he was like, oh great, you should come and meet Rain in person. When are you coming to la? And I said, I'm actually going to be there this weekend for my mom's birthday. And so we ended up, I ended up going and meeting Rain actually on the set of the office in his trailer. He's in full Dwight regalia. And I'm like, cool. This is nerve wracking. I didn't even think I'd get here. I thought this was just a big old long shot. And now I'm standing here about to talk to him and what was funny is he turned the question on me. He basically was like, listen, I've got a team that's building this website. We want to launch it in three weeks because I'm going on Oprah's super soul podcast. Like, but we don't really have content. What would you do? And I just, I had so many ideas and I was just like, we could do this, we could do that. I could call this, I could talk to this person. We could build a column like this in a series like that and a video series and a photo series. Like, I just had a ton of ideas and I think he was, he was drawn. We, you know, what I've Learned in the 17 years since with Rain is that we actually view the world in a lot of similar ways. And so I think a lot of the things I was saying was resonating with him. And then he basically was like, great, can we hire you for the next three weeks? And I, in one of the boldest moments of my life that I don't think I would ever repeat was like, yes, but I don't want to be paid for it. I want equity. I want to like be part of building this team. And they were like, well, let's talk about that. And ended up putting me on a vesting plan. And sure enough, in those next three weeks, I worked my butt off. I did the work, I didn't sleep. I pulled together enough content for us to have a six week Runway of, of stuff. And you know, as they say, the rest is history. Yeah, true. I don't know. I, I Lost my, I lost my mind a little bit in that period of time and it all ended up working out well.
- [28:51]
A
It's understandable. I mean, that's just, it's a pretty remarkable story that probably, you know, most people, again, most people that know about everybody should, Everybody that knows about rain should also know about you. But the, the way fame and, you know, celebrity works, they know about rain, they know about soulpancake, and they kind of sort of connect those dots. There's. But to just get.
- [29:10]
B
And that's okay because I've had zero desire to be famous. So it works out. Really works out.
- [29:15]
A
No. And most people that are famous are like, you don't want this. I promise you. It's actually kind of terrible. The money's good, but like the rest is terrible. But it's a really remarkable story of how the universe, you, in partnership with the universe, took some humongous risks. I mean, even the risk of being in the trailer of, you know, one of the top actors on a wildly, you know, big TV show at the time. And it's continued to get big over the years, like just sitting there and being like, nope. Because Most everybody else, 99.9999% of people would have been like, cool, I'll take the three weeks pay. Let's work our butts off and let's get this done. And just, I don't know, the, the intuition, the. I don't know, like, I think the difference. I'm an ENTJ. You said you're an INTJ. And I think you also have some. Because ENTJ's are. I'm an ENTJ, very action oriented, very like, like ready, fire, aim. That's how I do pretty much everything.
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B
But the, and for the uninitiated, this is the Myers Briggs personality.
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A
Myers Briggs. Yes, yes, yes. Go, go. Look it up. But what I know from. I could be wrong, but the INTJs have. And I think this is where that comes in is like the visionary. The, like you. Whether you know it or not, like you're thinking long term visionary all the time. And so it was that INTJ and you that was like, actually, let's talk about, let's talk about. I want, I want, I want, I, I want steak.
- [30:47]
B
I want to build this, I want to stake in this thing. Yeah, no, and I don't even know where that came from. Like, I, it's not like I had an entrepreneurial background. I was working for publications for media platforms. Right. So I was working for other people. I don't even know where it came from. Like, I just. The fact that I sat there and what was funny is he was like, well, let's. Let's hire you and let's make this happen. And he then had got pulled away for something for the filming. And I'm sitting with the co founder being like, I honestly don't want that. He's like, just ask for it. And I was like, okay. So then when we're in. Came back, I was like, well, I don't really want to be hired. I want to be part of this team you're building. And he was just like, okay, well, let's see if we can make that work. Talk it out with Devin. And I was like, okay. And in the back of my head, I'm like, really just act that. Ask that. Like, what has gotten into me? So, I mean, yes, there was a little bit of foresight. I'm sure there was a little intj. Like under the surface there, but I do think there was just a little bit of. I don't have anything to lose. It really did feel like that was my. I don't. I mean, that's how I felt at the time. Like, I really was like, you know what? Whatever. I don't know, man. Who knows what my life is going to turn out? Like, I should just go for this. So I did.
- [31:54]
A
Well, I'm glad. I'm glad you did because soulpancake continues to. Whether people can, like, you know, partake of all the content or not, at this point, like, SoulPancake changed, I think changed the YouTube media impact landscape, I think, for. For good. I mean, those videos were. So. Let's talk about that for a second because a lot of people might. They might not even know about soulpancake. Sad for you, but, like, go find whatever you. Go find whatever you can out there. I got to experience it sort of in real time because I found out about Soul Pancake while it was. While you all were making.
- [32:30]
B
In the heyday.
- [32:31]
A
Yeah, yeah, in the heyday, exactly. Give us some numbers. Like, give us the views.
- [32:37]
B
Yeah.
- [32:38]
A
Where. Where these things. The kind of people that you got to partner with. Like, give us a. Give us an overview of what happened, because it's quite remarkable.
- [32:45]
B
Yeah, well, actually, in the early days of soulpancake, we failed miserably. Like that first year and a half, we tried to basically build a social networking site around these big philosophical ideas and questions and life's big questions, and it was a failure. And the only thing that was performing was video content. That was the only Thing that was getting kind of engagement. And so we decided, you know, a year and a half into completely pivot and at that point the co founder who was acting as CEO, I was running content left and I became CEO. And at that point we decided let's let band in this whole social networking thing. Let's double down on video content and build out kind of a video content studio. And so when I went out, I went out to raise money against kind of this idea of a content studio and ended up with investment from Google ventures, but also YouTube which at that time was putting in dollars into celebrity or brand backed channels. And so we got some funding from there and decided to launch a, a content studio whose mission was to explore life's big questions and figure out what it means to be human. That was really our ethos and we wanted to create video content that was uplifting and inspiring. And we blew up in a way I can't describe. I mean, we, over the course of a decade amassed a billion video views, produced more than 6,000 individual pieces of content. We were posting content Monday through Thursday of every week from for years upon years. We launched a branded content studio and did commercial work with everyone from Visa to Coca Cola. We did a Super bowl campaign, we were agency of record for several companies. We did the Denny's campaign for two years straight. We worked with all sorts of big brands and then we also did a TV division. So we did specials and specials and documentaries for MTV, for VH1, for the Oprah Winfrey Network, we did shows and series for Discovery, Discovery, Kids, Comedy Central, we did a bunch of TV specials and series and shows, scripted, unscripted. And so we really kind of grew this audience of 10 million social fans, a billion video views, and we built platforms beyond that. And you can still see the content. If you go to YouTube and you type in soulpancake, you can see all this content. But if you've ever seen Kid President, the little boy who gave inspiring messages from behind a cardboard oval office, or you saw My Last Days on the cw, stories about individuals with terminal illness, or the science of happiness with videos about gratitude, and all these videos that went really crazy viral, then you've probably seen a soul pancake video and just didn't know it. And yeah, I'm really, honestly, I'm really proud and humbled by what we did. I do. You know, sometimes people are like, how did you build it? How did you grow it? And I'm like, it was a little bit of magic, it was a little bit of lightning. In a bottle. An amazing team that believed in what we were doing, making the content for the right platform at the right time, and frankly, being a little, you know, off the. Off the beaten path. Right. Most of the content that was being put on YouTube at that time was very vloggery driven. It was a lot of, like, you know, fails and unboxings and things like that. And we came out saying, no, we're going to make little mini docs that are about human beings and make you feel uplifted and inspired, but moved and emotional, and there was nothing like that out there. Like, everyone was obsessed with vice at the time, which was like, you know, you know, marijuana dens and sex trafficking and all these, like, crazy stories. And we were like, no, no, there's also a lot of good out there, and we wanted to elevate that. And we were. We were a little bit of the first of its kind in that space. And now there's so many people, you know, from Upworthy to Jubilee, who have done content like that. And I do feel like we kind of paved a path for that kind of uplifting, inspiring storytelling, which I'm so proud of.
- [36:30]
A
You should be really sorry.
- [36:31]
B
That was a long. That was a long answer.
- [36:33]
A
That's what I. That's what I wanted. I mean, Soul Pancake is. Is fantastic. And I'm not just. I'm not just keeping it on for the sake of it. But, you know, you mentioned Upworthy Jubilee. I still think, like, if Soul Pancake were to be restarted today, it would still be unique. Like, nobody's doing it like Soulpancake. I mean, even Jubilee. I think Jubilee started out differently, and.
- [36:57]
B
Now, I mean, become more political.
- [37:00]
A
Well, it's all just like, yeah. People yelling and bitching and moaning at each other, and I'm just like, this is not like, it's all clickbaity now. Not good clickbait. Like, bad clickbait. Like, who can be the worst person to each other about politics or religion or this or that? And it's like, that isn't fun. Like, I. Once upon a time, I would watch, like, Jubilee stuff, and now every time.
- [37:21]
B
I see no and that. I agree. I agree. Upward. The Jubilee, early days. Jubilee was amazing, and I think they have veered more towards the politics and the, like, 20 people versus one feminine.
- [37:32]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to watch Jordan Peterson, you know, against 25. Like, that just is not a great. So all that to say it worked back then. And I think it. I mean, it's still, like, I Don't see any platform like a brand idea, a platform that is doing that work still, you know, and maybe, maybe it's not the right. Like, maybe, maybe it's not what people want now, but I don't think anyone's doing it still in the year of our Lord 2026. So congrats.
- [38:02]
B
I thank you. Thank you for saying that. I do feel like it was a moment in time that we captured in.
- [38:08]
A
A lot of ways, Soul Pancake. Okay, so soul is still part of this new thing that we're going to talk about. Apparently, Rain Wilson can't get away.
- [38:18]
B
Yeah, I can't get away from it either. I was actually telling my husband the other day, I'm like, I ran Soul Pancake. I'm on the board of a company called Tiny Souls, which does children's.
- [38:27]
A
No way. Okay.
- [38:28]
B
Not kidding. And I'm now helping build Soul Boom, which I'm like, I cannot get away from things named Soul. Apparently this is my. My fate in life is to work on initiatives with horse soul in its title. I mean, not a bad place to be, but. But still, I think it's pretty funny.
- [38:44]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, that's actually hilarious. The tidy soul's thing. And now. And now. Soul Boom. That's. That's wild. What. Let's begin with this because I think a lot of people probably have. They either know what they think about the word soul. Let's just start there. Like a very base level. And then some people that aren't religious or don't want to think about these things just have no idea what to think about when people are talking about a soul. What do. What do you think about when you think about working in the soul business? I mean, Soul pancake. Soul Boom. Tiny souls. Like we're talking about. We're talking about what's happening inside of a person that does manifest itself on the outside. But what do you think about when you think about working in this business and thinking about souls?
- [39:31]
B
Yeah, well, first of all, not enough people, I think, think about the soul. I do. I do think that that is true. And on. So Soul Boom started out as a book that Rainn published in 2023 called Soulboom why We Need a Spiritual Revolution. There it is. And that book became a bestseller, which Rain didn't know what was going to happen with it, but it became a bestseller. And he eventually went on to start a podcast by the same name that now gets 2 million monthly downloads. So it's a highly successful podcast that podcast on it in every episode. He Asks people, he asks his guests, like, how do you define a soul? And so it's been really fascinating to see the varied responses people give to this. You're so, so right that not enough people think about it, and everyone has a different point of view. Personally, I think that the soul, what I just kind of describe as the soul, is kind of that ineffable essence that makes each of us a kind of a member of this human family. And what connects us all to the other parts of the human family. It is the spark of the divine, the universe, the. The forces that we cannot see that connects us all. So that's how I see the soul. And so when I think about it through that lens of, like, the thing that comes connects us all, that spark that connects us all, then it becomes very much so about how do we find the best of ourselves to put out into the world? How do we cultivate that best part of our soul to then connect with other people? And that's what the work of soulpancake was. It was like identifying the best of the soul through irreverence and humor and, you know, inspiring content. And then the soul boom is similar, but it's just more overtly spiritual. It's saying maybe, maybe there's a lot of ancient spiritual wisdom out there that when we all decided religion sucks, and many people for many reasons, said our religion sucks, and we threw it out. But when we did that, we kind of threw out all the ancient spiritual wisdom as well. And maybe in that ancient spiritual wisdom, there are ways to continue to cultivate the best parts of our soul and to connect with. With humanity in a more deep. In a more deep and profound way. And I think that's. That's what led us to kind of say, oh, maybe soul boom is bigger than just the book Rain wrote and this podcast he does. And that's what we're kind of building slowly towards now.
- [41:45]
A
That was beautiful. That was a sermon in and of itself about the soul. No, I completely. I completely agree that, A, we're not talking about it enough. B, we need to talk about it more, because whether we like it or not, I'm not asking people to believe in any certain thing. I'm a Christian. Nobody else has to be a Christian. I am a universalist Christian. So I, like Baha' is, believe that there's one divine being, we can call it God, that is connecting all of us. It's not the Christian God and the Baha' I God and the Buddhist God and the Hindu God and the Muslim God and The Jewish. No. Like, there's one thing connecting us, and I think it's the soul that is connecting us. If I say I'm connected to you, Shabnam, and you're across the country, like the thing that is connecting us through the divine is our souls. It's not our physical bodies. We're 3,000 miles away from each other, but it's this soul. And the more we get in tune with the soul, the better chance we do of we're going to fuck fewer things up and we're going to get united on more things. We're going to. We're going to figure more things out. If it's like, hey, if I hurt you, I'm hurting me.
- [42:50]
B
Yeah.
- [42:51]
A
Why do I want to hurt?
- [42:52]
B
Exactly right. If we are. If our souls are pulsing as part of one connected human force, then every pain that I cause has a ripple effect. And I think that completely changes how we move through the world. If we recognize that in ourselves and in other people. Yeah, truly I do.
- [43:13]
A
Absolutely. And that could change the entire game. Political, social activism, family, friends, how we build our cities, how we do the things we eat, things we don't eat, the clothes we wear, the, the car, like interchange everything.
- [43:27]
B
And that was the intention of this, is to say, you know, hey, maybe there are spiritual solutions and spiritual wisdom that can actually change the way we think about things like climate change or racism. Right. Like, maybe there are ways that we can think about it that aren't just, you know, someone saying, okay, well, here is my academic research study that says this reparations model can work for. And maybe instead we. To recognize that black people and white people and brown people and indigenous people, there is a spark inside all of us that is part of a collective fabric. And that harming anyone in that collective fabric is actually what is causing some of the hatred that we're experiencing. And I, and you know, there's a way to unpack that that isn't so academic and so set in policy and so set in the brain and is more set and seated in the heart. In the soul.
- [44:23]
A
In the heart and the soul. Yeah. Growing up as a very conservative Christian kid, we were. Anytime Mother Earth came up that phrase, we were like, it was off limits because. Because God created the heavens and the earth and it. And obviously God in the conservative Christian world is a dude, big beard up in the sky. If you love that God, he loves you back. If you don't, eternal conscious torment for you. Right? So. So we were.
- [44:50]
B
But you're naughty, you're nice. Very Santa Claus.
- [44:53]
A
Yep, exactly. Very, very bad Santa Claus. But then as I got older and left, you know, shed a lot of that. Kept the good things from religion and my spirituality, but shed a lot of it. And then I started thinking about Mother Earth, right? This in the, the mother figure in particular. There's nothing wrong with fathers. I'm a father. But like this, this idea of this, this caring, loving, nurturing mother. Right. If it's Mother Earth, then, and, and your like Mother Earth is for you and for me, like what? It just all makes sense to stop playing this individual, individualist game and realize that we're, we are so freaking connected to each other. And yes, I think we're, I think we're in agreement there. So you got the. We got the Soul Boom book came first bestseller. We love Rain. Rain's a quite, quite the human. And then it was the pancake. Sorry, sorry. Then it was the song. The podcast that came after which I listened to. I Love Rain has had some of my friends on the show. It's a great, great podcast. How did we go from book to podcast? And now we've got November, beginning of November of last year, the workbook came out. Yes, I'm showing it on the screen if you're listening on audio. But it's Soul Boom Workbook, Spiritual tools for modern Living by New York Times best selling authors Rainn Wilson and Shabnam. How did this book. What was the process of. Why did this book come? Why do we need a workbook? Why not just the book? What was that process like? It really is fantastic. So tell us that process and also what people are going to find when they get this book, because they absolutely should this workbook.
- [46:38]
B
Well, thank you, I appreciate that. Well, you know, Rain had the book, he had the podcast and he was like, well, wait a minute, am I starting a media company again? Am I starting another, you know, soulpancake? And I chatted with him a lot about it and we were both kind of like, well, we don't want to start another. We don't want to start another startup. Like, I think the grind of SoulPancake daily video content, it was a lot. It required a lot of investors, investment, a lot of resources and time, you know, And I think both of us were feeling more like, no, how do we create something that's a little bit more intentional in what we do? And so we started just honestly just thinking more strategically about like, what could Soul Boom be? And we decided that Soulboom was just going to be a creator of what we call profound and playful media that gets people thinking about how spiritual tools can help with their personal lives, but also with kind of societal transfer. So how do we create that media? But to not do it in like a. It has to be every day, right? There's already a podcast dropping almost every week from Rain. So how do we create kind of tentpole media moments where people engage in this conversation and this community? That's about a million and a half people online so far. But the soul boom community can start to really engage in these conversations and then have tentpole media moments that, like, get them drawn in. And the first one came actually from Rain's publisher. Rain's publisher said, hey, this book sold them, became a bestseller. And it's all about why we need a spiritual revolution. You made the case for it. But the number one question people are left with at the end of reading the book is like, but how? Right, like you, you. You made the case for why we need more spirituality, but how exactly? If you are just a curious person or you're spiritually curious, but maybe you've like skewed religion and said, I don't want that anymore, how do you actually explore what spiritual ideas look like in your life? And so the workbook is very much. And I'm holding it up too, but the workbook is very much the answer to that. It really explores the how of embarking on a spiritual journey and how to do that, and what kinds of questions and reflections are needed to identify your own spiritual worldview. What is my point of view from a spiritual perspective? How do I define the soul? How do I define my values? What is morality for me? What do I believe happens after death? What is the meaning of life? Like, really explore these big ideas for yourself as an individual. And three quarters of the book is that and a quarter of the book, the last kind of quarter of the book is about how do you then apply that externally? Because I think too much of the internal work that we all see in the kind of general self care space stays too self focused and internally focused. And we really wanted people to recognize that, like doing the work internally and thinking about our values, thinking about who we are and how we move through the world, then has application when we step outside into the world. And we wanted to give people ways to think about what it looks like, then live out that spiritual life in action outside in the world. So we kind of describe the book as the Artist's way for the soul. So if you're familiar with the Artist's Way, which is Julia Cameron's amazing book about kind of creative forces and how to channel creativity. This is very much so the artist's way, but it's for spirituality. How do you find and define your own spiritual self and then take that out and, and apply it in the world?
- [49:55]
A
Can I give my case? That was a beautiful case. You don't need my help trying, you know, pitching this anymore, but can I give, I want to give my perspective as I've gone through most of this workbook after.
- [50:09]
B
I would love your, Yeah, I would love your perspective on it because obviously you know, we, we, we did it in our little vacuum, Marina and I of like what we wanted to convey. But I'm just so curious as people are working through it, what they're, what they are seeing in it.
- [50:23]
A
Yeah, absolutely. The content. No problem with the content. The content's fantastic. What I want to focus on is the importance in, in 2026, in a time in history where we don't need to ever write anything down. We don't need to read a physical book. We don't need to do any of that because it's all on these, you know, devices that are in our pockets or in our hands all the time, right. And we're sitting on a computer. Like I've got, I've got, I could work for the rest of my life in this bedroom of mine because everything's here now, right? But if you can see, if you're watching on YouTube, we have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of books all over our house because we love books and because we know the importance of holding a physical book, reading a physical book, not reading something that's on a screen. Okay, so back to this workbook. It is so important for our brains and our hearts to, I think people that read Soul boom the book and not do the workbook are missing out on a shit ton of value. Because I read a lot of books and then I go on and forget most of what I read because I'm human and I read on a page, I even underlined and dog eared and put a memo, then I forget about it because we can't hold all of that stuff. But like science, it's scientifically proven that when you start asking questions, reading questions, writing stuff down, the importance of writing your thoughts down is. It's monumental for reflection, like self reflection for memorizing. I'm doing a poetry class right now learning how to, not how to write it. This one specifically, how to. It's called committed to. Committed to the heart. Not Committed to memory, committed to the heart. And it's by one of my friends who's a wonderful poet. He's been doing poetry for 45 years. And the whole idea is like learning how to really commit these poems not just to memory, but to the heart. And so I think the same applies here. Like, part of what we're doing is not just reading it, not just learning the methodology, but actually writing it out several times in different places in different ways. And that is quickening and deepening the experience of interacting with this poem. I think the same applies here where it's like, folks like, you've got, if you want something to really stick with you, if you want to experience a soul, boom, spiritual revolution and transformation, reading the book's fine. Listening to the podcast, those are all fine. But add to that this workbook because I truly think it's so important to engage with the material. Read the quotes and then also, you know, read the stories, but then also start writing stuff down. I think that's some of those blank. Here's the synopsis of what. Here's the. Too long, didn't read. The blank pages in this workbook are the most important parts of it. Because once you read the stories from you and from rain and you read the quote and you get the prompt, what you write down is really what's going to stick with you because you're thinking about it, you're seeing it, and you're writing it down. All those things together make for a sort of a deeper learning experience.
- [53:33]
B
Yeah, I love that. I love that. Because it is true. We wanted every page to feel like an invitation to someone to self explore.
- [53:42]
A
Yeah.
- [53:43]
B
And we very intentionally, this is, I. And I hope you felt that this is trying to be a super inclusive like of Eastern traditions, Western traditions, indigenous traditions, rituals, deeply sacred things, more superficial things, you know, all the things that make up our human experience. How could we capture that in the book? And we wanted every page to be an invitation for the reader to explore that for themselves, not think about what our point of view is. We kind of say, like, here's what we think, but we want to know what you think. And that's. That was really important to us because I do think not enough people sit and actually really reflect about, like it's this. And what my priest told me, this is. This isn't what I read in the Bible. This isn't what I. What some podcast, you know, Christian podcast told me or what my rabbi said, you know, at Shabbat. Like, this is very much so about me and what I have consumed and then what I believe about what makes a fulfilled spiritual life. And I think that's so important for people to do that work. And it is work. And I'm not going to sugarcoat it. This is not something that like you spend a weekend with and then be like, cool, and I check I did some spiritual work for the year. Like this is something that I think we should, we should take on the wrestling with these things every day, every year because we're just too, we just want too much immediacy in this life. Like I just, I want to be able to Google my answer and chat GPT it, you know, right away on my phone. And we don't spend enough time wrestling with the hard stuff. And I think that's, that's important, that's important for us, us to do.
- [55:18]
A
Yeah. And I think co sign on all of that. I think in this time where you mentioned ChatGPT just now, obviously Google was already powerful enough. Hey, Google, now we can have chat GBT write whatever the hell we, you know, give it a few prompts.
- [55:33]
B
Is people's therapists now. Like literally people, people do chat GPT therapy now.
- [55:38]
A
You know what's.
- [55:39]
B
Wait, wait, what about the self work?
- [55:43]
A
This is a real sad story, but I got to share it right here as a reminder of how. I'm not saying throw Chaboty in the garbage, even though it's bad for the environment and it's not helpful overall in humanity. I'm not saying throw it away. But what I am saying is I just heard a story of a young kid who chatgpt over the course of four months, led him to kill himself. He was lonely and he started, he, he, he entrusted ChatGPT with just. He started talking back and forth. ChatGPT every night, hours and hours and hours. And literally at the end of like three or four months, this is a true story. This. The ChatGPT told him what supplies to buy, how to make sure his parents weren't around, did all this stuff, and then his dad walks out of him hanging from the ceiling. This is a real thing. And so what you. But what you, what you just, it's, it's so. I think it's just reflective of what we're entrusting to help us get to the next plane of existence. And it's not going to work. What does work is us being in. I want to wrap up our conversation talking about the importance of community in all of this, because that kid did all of that, because he wasn't in his parents weren't observing. I'm not blaming on the parents. I'm just saying parents weren't observing. Was not in community, did not. Was not being looked after in terms of community and friendship and how do we help our kid that is obviously, you know, in, in turmoil and pain. So don't. Yeah, don't go to ChatGPT for, for.
- [57:18]
B
This is, this is also the thing that drives me crazy. It's like ChatGPT has been around how long A second? A micro. Micro mill. You know, second in the grand scheme of experience. In the grand scheme of life and experience. And yet some of this ancient spiritual wisdom that we're talking about has been around for millennia and yet we threw all that out and said now I'm gonna go list it and let Chachi PT that was made by humans that are been only been around for the last like 30 years. Let that be the informer of, of the wisdom that I used to shape and explore and mine my inner self. Like that feels bananas to me that we wouldn't want to go to deeper, more mystical, more profound, more sacred sources for these things. I just, it, it's what I. Heartbreaking. It's so heartbreaking to hear that story because I just, I really wrestle with like, yes, AI is going to make so many things easier and faster. Fantastic. We all love it. We all love the convenience of our phones. But also there needs to be an A. Yes. And yes, all those things will be helpful and we can't discard the, the, the, the that ineffable humanity that we all have. Like if we do that, we're lost. We're just lost.
- [58:34]
A
I have a lot of like leftist, you know, friends of mine and I too am, I'm as left as, I'm as left as you can go. And I have, I'm one of the few in my like circle that hasn't left a spiritual tradition. I still go to mass, I still engage with it. And it's precisely because of what you just pointed out. And I, I bore them to tears sometimes just talking about it. But I'm like, hey, I totally get. You've got church hurt, you've got, you've got religion hurt. I totally get it. A lot of bad things happen to them. Bad things happen to me in this religious space. But you've got this ancient, like for me it's all about in this such fast paced world that we live in. I needed some things that have been tried and true, not perfect. Because nothing's fucking perfect. There's not a thing we engage with that's perfect. These people that created all these spiritual practices over, they're not perfect. They were all good and bad and everything that all humans are. But it's something that has stood the test of thousands and hundreds of years. Right. Go back as far and it's something that, like, is still around. People are still. I'm still going to mass and I'm still praying prayers that are, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years old. Maybe they have, you know, very, you know, all the energy in some of those prayers is very masculine. It's very he and it's very this and it's very whatever and as if we're reducing God to having a certain gender. But it's like, I don't care. Like, I can, I can still engage with that prayer because it's been around for so fucking long and it's, it's still feeding and helping and, and sort of, yeah, it's cultivating things within these humans here in New York city in, in 2026. And so I totally agree. Like, I'm not.
- [60:06]
B
We don't like. Yeah, but we don't like. We, we live in a world that doesn't like the ancient, doesn't like the slow, doesn't like ritual, doesn't like things that take time. Like, that's just the world we live in right now. And I think whether you want to call it religion or you want to call it just some kind of spiritual practice, I think offers those things. It offers that to people and we don't take enough advantage of it. We just don't.
- [60:32]
A
Totally agree. Let's wrap up with this. The importance of community in all of this. You have been creating community both digitally, you know, and in person for long, long, long, long time. So have I. It's something that I think we both find, you know, wildly important and even with. And fulfilling. And I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's everything. Because the only way that we get to. Whether it's a spiritual revolution or a physical, like, the only way, the only.
- [61:02]
B
Way we with others, the only way that it happens, it's with other only.
- [61:06]
A
Way it's going to do it. I was reading, I was thinking about. As I was thinking about our conversation, I was thinking about at some point in the book, I forget where there's the Dorothy Day quote, who's. My, my, I love her so much. Our socialist, anarchist, Catholic angel of a human who did so many wonderful, beautiful things for humanity during her time here. But she Was. It was a. She's talking about community and she says, we have all known the long loneliness. I'd never heard that before. I read the quote a long time ago and I'm so glad that it's in this book. We've never known. We have all known the long loneliness and we have learned that the only solution is love and that love comes with community. And then earlier in this comes from a thing she wrote earlier in this, like, essay she wrote of this, where that quote is found. She has the words, but the final word is love. So in this spiritual revolution, yes, people are going to read this book. Some might do it in a book club sort of setting, but they're going to read Soul Boom by themselves. They're going to go through this workbook by themselves. What do you have to say to people listening that are. That have already engaged in this? Maybe they've already read it or they're going to go buy it as a result of this? How to take it from self exploration. What part do I want to play in this spiritual revolution to then go and find if they don't have it already, go and find the community to accomplish this within. Because it is not. Yes, a lot of spiritual is self. It's me. But I found the best spiritual things that I've ever done. The spiritual, the things that I've discovered, the things I go through, the things I talk about happens in community, and again, change, social, political or spiritual or otherwise isn't going to happen alone. It can happen so little. But if we want it to be exponentially bigger, it's got to be done in community. So, yeah, your thoughts on this spiritual revolution taking place in community?
- [63:04]
B
Should we do a second podcast? Because I legit could talk about this. I could legit talk about this for hours. It is hands down the most important element, I think, of any kind of both spiritual awakening as well as just societal awakening. So we ended the book. Like I said, the last 25% is about how to take these spiritual lessons into the world. And the two things that we kind of whittled everything down to was the importance of having a service mindset and building and engaging with community. And in that community section, what we talk a lot about is noticing. And what I mean by that is how important it is to notice in yourself what skill sets you have to offer and also noticing externally what is needed. Right. And it doesn't have to be huge. I think so often we think like, oh, my goodness, you know, climate change, the world is burning, et cetera. And we don't. We train our eyes to the big. And we don't actually look to what's happening with our neighbors or in our neighborhoods or in our communities. And so what we talk a lot about in the book is the importance of noticing to noticing. Like, my skill set may not be to be a leader. My skill set might be to be. Be the music person who brings arts to the community. My. My skill set might be the person who's just really good at math and can account, you know, do accounting for things. So really taking an assessment of your own skills, but then also looking around and noticing what your community needs, whether that is an elderly neighbor who hasn't had a chance to mow or weed their lawn in a couple of weeks or a portion of your neighborhood that is kind of run down and falling apart that could use a refresh. Like, what are the things in our communities that we notice are needed? And so those are the things that we talk about in the, in that kind of the community section of the book. When I take a step back personally, the thing that I notice more than anything in the world is that every. Every single industry, every single business, every single entity that makes up our society is actively working to isolate us actively. So it is not just our phones. It is not just everyone being like this. You know, I'm looking down at my screen on the subway. It is actually every industry. So we can now check into hotels and never have to speak to the person at the front desk. We can go to the grocery store and do self checkout and never talk to anyone. We can get in an Uber and it's a quiet ride and you know, don't talk to me because I don't want to be bothered in this ride. I ordered doordash and I could say leave it on my front step. Don't even bother ringing my doorbell. It is literally every industry in the world. The other day I put. I had to go into the bank for something. I had to go into the bank to get something notarized. And the bank was a ghost town. There was nobody in there. Why? Because everyone can now deposit their checks and transfer their money and whatever without ever stepping, having step foot into a bank or talk to anyone. That is the world we live in. Everything is actively isolating us. And so the responsibility, the big responsibility, the onus is not just on noticing what is needed, but actively combating the isolation by going out and talking to people, by joining things, by showing up to those things. If we don't do that, the Whole kitten caboodle is lost in my mind. And so, you know, I talk a lot about how important it is to join and show up, join and show up, join and show up. Like, if there's anything that you take away from, how do I do this? How do I actually engage in community? How do I build this thing that I know I can't make anything happen in the world without others? It is to join something and show up, Find the thing that sparks your interest, pay attention, notice what's going on around you. And it can be small. It can be like, oh my local Michaels had a flyer for a quilt making club. You know, like, it does not have to be a big impactful social uprising kind of thing. It can be something small that just sparks your interest. But if we don't join and show up, we'll never invest in community building and we'll never know what that feels like. We'll never know the benefits of it. We'll never know how it looks like to build something if we don't actually join and show up. And it is the only antidote to the isolation that we're all seeing, experiencing and victims of in the world that we're being, we're building. And I, and I will say, I also, I very much so feel like the biggest skill I can teach my kids, you know, my kids are still little, yours are, yours are older, so you probably have already taught them this. But my, the biggest skill, as I look at my 2 year old and my 5 year old is it's not about how well they perform at academics. It's not about, you know, if they're going to go to the best college. Like, I think the biggest skill I can teach them to combat what's happening in the world is to be able to shake a stranger's hand, look them in the eyes and have a conversation with someone they don't know and be able to engage with the human across from them, not with a screen between them, but like in person, in person. And so I'm, I'm constantly like, okay, order for yourself at the Starbucks. Right? We're gonna go up and talk to the person. Oh, look, this person's name is Jane, right? Like, what do you want to say to Jane? Right? Like really trying to see the person that they're interacting with in the world. Because every other message they're being told is don't interact and isolate.
- [68:15]
A
Let's do at some point around to, to talk about noticing, to talk about joining and showing up, because it truly is, yeah, We. I was. It was unfair for me to ask somebody like you that question. Right, right. As we're wrapping up. So, yeah, I would love to talk more about this at some point because it is so important. And this last thing I'll say to sort of just add on top is friends that are listening. If you only focus on what's happening around the world, which is so important. I am not saying to forget about Venezuela or Iran or Gaza or what's happening across the country from. You do not. Those are, again, the interconnectivity of it all. But the quickest way for you to feel better about what's happening over there and about WhatsApp is for you to notice and show up, like, locally. That's where you can have an impact. The person at the coffee shop, the person at the grocery store. So that will. That you will feel better, you will live better, you will. Your health, everything about you will be better. If you tone down what you're taking in from over there. Things you can't control and start owning the things you can control. Community, showing up, joining up, noticing, and. Yeah, yeah, powerful.
- [69:32]
B
Sorry. And I just want to add one more thing. I think so many people are like, yeah, but life is so hard. I can barely make rent, and I, you know, I've got sickness in my family, and I'm dealing with a challenging diagnosis for my kid or I haven't been able to find a job like there. Yes, all those things are true. The hard stuff will always be there in our personal lives. You know, I think oftentimes I go out and talk about joy and positive psychology and connection and community, and people are like, wow, you must have all your things together. I'm like, no, I've, like, I've struggled with income the last few years. I have dealt with infertility for five years, six years straight. Right. Like, I have had hard things in my personal life, but that does not. That is in one bucket. And the thing, actually, that helps me navigate that, the thing that helps me get through those really hard moments in my personal life is being connected to a community of people who I know will show up for me because I've invested the time in building that community and the time that I've spent showing up for them. They will then show up for me. And I think we often forget that to navigate even our own personal challenges requires the love and support of others. Dorothy Day. Love. Like, we don't. We won't get to the love if we don't start to invest in the community.
- [70:44]
A
Love that so much. I'm going to throw out a few ways that people can engage and then you add on that or tell me if I was wrong obviously. Go follow Shabnam. That's S H A B N A M M 2 M's at the end on Instagram. Follow Soulboom. Follow Rainn. You probably already are. SoulBoom.com buy both the book and the workbook. My preferred place to buy is bookshop.org because that invests back in local books and you can still buy it online. But if you need to do Amazon or whatever else, just get the get. Get the damn workbook. Anything else I missed? How can people keep up with what you're doing and what you're about?
- [71:25]
B
Besides your Instagram, you can also follow me on LinkedIn. That's where I post most of like my longer written stuff is on LinkedIn Instagram. I usually keep for for personal stuff. And then if you know I do a lot of keynote speaking and a lot of consulting work as well in this space and you can get that.
- [71:42]
A
Info@Shabnam speaks.com Shabnam speaks.com yeah we didn't even get around to all these incredible talks that people just go google Shabnam's name in YouTube @tedx. Google all these other places that you have spoken at a lot about joy. We didn't even get to talk about how joy is so central to who you are. Creating ambassadors of joy, harnessing the power of joy. All these incredible talks that you've given Shabnam. I hope we get to do this again. Thank you for joining me. I hope everyone listening, I know they learned a bunch and I hope that they will go out and buy this workbook. Thank you so much for being here.
- [72:18]
B
Thank you for having me. I love this conversation. I feel like it flew by but I could talk with you about this stuff for hours.
- [72:29]
A
Friends, thank you so much for showing up and for spending some time with Shabnam and me today to find links for everything mentioned in today's conversation and to keep up with all things let's give a damn you know it. Visit LetsGiveAdam.com Please share this episode with a friend. Please leave. Leave us a five star rating and review on Apple podcasts or Spotify and please show up next week. We have many more incredible conversations coming your way. You can reach out anytime and for any reason@helloetsgiveadam.com keep giving a damn. I love you all. Bye for now.