A (3:33)

Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, typically the one that Sam and I were talking about is like the gold, the goldfish myth that our attention spend nowadays is, is shorter than the goldfish. Well, first of all, it's a myth. I've not come across any proper research that actually has determined that our attention span really has declined. What we can say though is that again, in this world of information overload that we're living in, in this world where we are being pulled from one thing to another, very often our phones play a big role there, right? Like, oh, there's another message that came in or another post that someone has put up that could be interested or someone rings us up or someone wants to have a conversation. Like all that's like noise that's around us that requires our attention. So we constantly move from one thing to another. So we certainly have seen that. And then from a marketer's point of view, that of course makes it then very difficult because we're not. Like when I grew up, we had, and I chose my age, we had two TV channels in Austria, right. Creatively called Channel one and Channel two. That was pretty much it. Nowadays it's much more difficult if you want to watch tv, to call someone's attention because they, again, this little thing here or the tablets that we have constantly interacting with us, asking for our attention for obvious reasons. So it makes it a lot more difficult for people. So our attention itself, I've not seen any research that says the attention span is reduced, but we are pulled in a lot more directions than ever before. You're more likely previously. So like when I was younger to sit through a TV commercial, nowadays you just jump on your phone, right, to do something else very quickly.

B (5:07)

Yeah. And I mean, I think this whole idea of indeed, like we were only able to consume content from like 2 to 3 seconds is total BS. I mean, for example, I've been on YouTube the last months. I discovered this whole like group of creators creating these videos, camping ASMR videos where basically you're watching a guy sitting by a lake and this takes maybe 10 minutes where nothing happens. And I really enjoy that type of content. So my attention, attention span isn't that bad. But indeed, as you said, like when I'm like, I want to see something else, I can click away straight away. So it's more, I think how to get that attention. And I think maybe like what's interesting to me is for me, a lot of marketers first struggle with this idea of how do we get the attention? And then you come along, Max, and you say, no, no, no, you don't just have to get attention, you have to get associative attention. What is wrong with just getting attention? And maybe do you have examples of why that isn't working on its own?

A (6:13)

Yeah, absolutely. So the thing is that attention is a very important topic. But starting off with the idea I need to get attention, that's, that's just a little bit flawed because it's going to sort of set this off in the direction of like, okay, I need to do something that grabs attention and hey, yes, people will flock to my brand and buy my brand, product, service, whatever it is. Well, there is something we need to do first and that's about building the right associations. Because I can draw attention to my brand but, or to my advertising, let's say. But people don't know who my brand is or when to think about my brand, my product, my service. It's going to be an issue. Right? So the very first thing we need to do is to think about what types of associations do I need to build. This is so like, what are the reasons why people should think about me? We call them also triggers or category entry points. But also how do we make sure the people recognize my brand? Whether we talk about advertising or whether we talk about the good old fashioned physical product being in a store, if people don't recognize you, the chance is much lower that you are being bought. So we have to make sure we understand. So like what we need to build attention for before we think about what you've mentioned, that how do I get attention, how do I stand out in that world of information overload. Yeah, in that world where again we spend so much time on there and we're being distracted, where we're just scrolling through feeds and updates from friends, families and whoever else we are following. And that's really the associative attention framework. It combines the what I need to build attention for with a how do I build attention? Yeah. And that's really what we need to focus on. And you got to get both. Right. It's not just one or the other. Right?

B (7:56)

Yeah.

A (7:56)

If you get attention to an ad, but again, people don't know who it is and why actually they should be paying attention. Because what's the product, the service, the job to be done, for example, that you're solving, then what's the point? Right. The chances that people will buy you maybe later on when they're in a buying situation is very low. But likewise, it's also not enough to just be clear on like why people should buy you. Right. You also need to get their attention so you can communicate it to them. You can be super clear on that. But then your ad doesn't grab attention. Your ad is lost in the sea of information overload. So it needs to really do both. And that's what we are trying to do with the associative attention framework to combine both. You can't just do one or the other. You got to get both sides. Right.

B (8:45)

Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of marketers had maybe a bit of an over obsession with like, yeah, we need to go viral and all of these typical things. And probably also due to the platforms like TikTok being very much like one shot viral videos and then the next one falling flat again. So it's almost designed to build in that way. And I agree that having it built for the right reasons and with the right decisions is important maybe to dive a little bit deeper because obviously we've had Jenny and some other people on the podcast talking about category entry point. But I'd love your take on how to identify them. But specifically maybe because, for example, the why framework, I can put it in the show notes as well. It's a very good framework to come up with the right questions. But how do you find out what category points are relevant for your brand in a way that it's somewhat validated and not just you putting postits on a board.

A (9:50)

Yeah. So I think Jenny would typically say go out there and do some proper research because we need to really understand what is in the minds of our consumers. Because you and I, as marketers, as people who love the subject, we spend an awful lot of time thinking about marketing in general, but particularly if you work on a specific brand, about that brand, you live and breathe it 247 roughly. But as Consumers, we have a lot of other preferences. Yeah, I don't watch TV to look at ads. I look to look at. I watch TV because either want to figure out what's happening in the news, in the world out there, or because I want to be entertained. And it's the same thing. For example, why I go on websites, to maybe find something else about information or to educate myself. I'm not going out there to look at, to look at ads. So we as marketers, we think way too much about brands compared, or way more, I should say, than our consumers do. And this is why it's important to not think about what's in our heads. We need to think about what's in their minds. So we need to go out there. We can research that quantitatively quite easily. And I think Jenny has probably mentioned this as well, and she's advocating that with the W's framework that she has. Go out there and find out what the reasons are, why people buying the category and subsequently also why they're buying you. Figure out how strong are those reasons linked to your brand versus other brands? How many reasons are there and how, or roughly and how important are they? What are the reasons that other brands own and how strongly do they own them? Because these are all things that you need to know to really build a strategy in terms of what to focus on. Yeah. So I would say definitely go out there, do some research. But as Sam would probably say, well, yeah, but not all companies have the budget to do the research. So it's a bare minimum. What we should do is to like, as we call it, put on the walking shoes, whether it means the real walking shoes, and going out there, walking the high street, going to supermarkets, markets, or also like the digital walking shoes. Browsing the Internet, find out what your consumers are doing, do a bit of social listening. For example, check out what they Google, what are the keywords around certain category purchases, Find out what that is. Then look at the ads that your competitors are doing. What do they seem to focus on? What language are they using? Are there maybe any gaps that they're leaving behind that you should be focusing on? So if you can absolutely do some research, but as a bare minimum, put on your walking shoes, whether the physical ones or the digital walking shoes.

B (12:24)

Yeah, And I think what's also interesting in, in set, let's say once you've identified those, those entry points or those triggers, like, you know, you understand the category, you know, what people find relevant is what I find very interesting. And, and I guess this is a Lot more relevant for smaller brands and big brands, which is where Samuel often also talks about is like, how do you then pick the ones that you want to focus on? Because big brands can usually focus on almost all of them regards to the category. But like, how do you select the category entry points that. Yeah. That you want to build a strategy on?

A (13:05)

I think it's a really important, a really great question. The thing is, as you mentioned, bigger brands tend to have, and we've seen this in research, more of those category entry points associated with them. But you've got to start somewhere, right? You can't just. Well, most brand, even the big brands don't have infinite amounts of money to just throw it out and communicate everything. And also you shouldn't communicate all of those category entry points in one ad either. That's just information overload there. But that's why it's so important to do the research to really figure out, like, what are the big most important category entry points that exist within the category? Which ones are associated to you, if any at all, particularly if you're new or a small brand, it might not be much or any. And also what's associated to your competitors. And that's basically when you then need to start making a decision and say, okay, well, actually, and this depends really on the context, if there are, let's say, only two or three really big important category entry points, you probably will have to focus on them, even if your competitors do as well. However, if there is a lot more, and there might be some that are underserved by your competitors, you could make a decision to say, I'm going to start off with that, that one first. Almost like carving out a bit of a niche, but acknowledging that if you want to grow your brand, you need to expand the breadth of the category entry points, because again, that's what we've seen is that bigger brands have more category associated with them. That means over time you will have to attach more to your brand. But you got to start off of somewhere. I think Oatly is a really, really good example. Right. Oatly actually didn't start off as broad in terms of their appeal. In terms of positioning, they started very niche. And one of the things, amongst other stuff like changing the packaging and the advertising, what they then said is like, actually we need to change our appeal. They started to focus on other category entry points, they started to widen their positioning and that's what really helped them grow significantly. And Corn, the meat alternative brand, is a very similar example that started off very Focused very niche that we are only so like for vegans or vegetarians and then realizing, hold on a second, there's a lot of people, including myself, and I'm saying this as a meat loving Austrian, right. That every now and then we just eat vegetarian dishes. Right? Yeah. So they changed so like their positioning because they understood there are reasons that are not just to do with I'm a vegetarian or vegan, there's other reasons, just maybe I'm on a diet or I want to live healthier or whatever it is, they understood those reasons and they expanded that. And by increasing the category entry points, the positioning subsequently as well, they really step changed their sales performance.

B (15:39)

Yeah. And what I also find interesting is I wonder sometimes, and this might be a bit linked to the whole differentiation versus distinctiveness debate. But anyway, like some brands seem to like Liquid Death, for example. I'm not sure if they're really aiming on different category entry points per se, but rather aiming at the same thing. You're thirsty, you want to drink something healthy. But they do it in the most crazy distinctive way. Do you think like that is also strategy or am I maybe missing the point that actually they did find a new way of looking at category entry points?

A (16:22)

To be honest, I wouldn't say that they found a different way for category entry points because water is water. Right. And I'm simplifying here. But what they've really done, if I go back to the framework of associative attention, they acknowledge that it's not just about the category entry points. I also need to do it in a distinctive way so that people instantly recognize me and I need to know how to get attention. If we think about the almost like crazy like advertising that they sometimes have, like where people's hands get chopped off and stuff like that. So and I think that's for me a really good example to say what, you know, what the cat guarantee points are, what they are. It's about hydration, it's about water. Right. There's probably not much of a niche I maybe can carve out there. But in terms of the other parts of the associated potential framework, I really going to do well because I'm going to do it in a way it's very distinctive and from a media and from a creative point of view, I also going to make sure that I grab attention and maybe also create some talkability in that sense. So I think they're actually very good example of a company maybe unwittingly embracing the associative attention framework.

B (17:27)

That's the great thing about frameworks that you can always like, in hindsight, say, well, they follow the playbook.

A (17:33)

Exactly. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing.

B (17:36)

Voila. But I do like the framework because it's very simple. It says it almost by just explaining it in a very simple way. So that's great. But let's say we've put down the fundamentals. We understand why people come into the category. Maybe we know a few that we can double down on because of our positioning, our product, whatever. We're also distinctive, we have the right assets and so on. How do we then go about and get actual attention? Because that is of course, still the struggle of today for a lot of marketers.

A (18:11)

Yeah, absolutely. There's two aspects really, to it. One is like the media choices that we make, because we of course know that watching TV is very different. Like you've said earlier about TikTok, where we spend a lot less time looking at that. So we need to understand what's the media that we have at our disposal. Typically that, of course, comes from the budget that you have available. Right. How do people engage with that media? Because that will, of course, determine whether you use a longer form ad or a shorter form ad. And besides media, we also need to recognize, of course, that it's the creative that's very important because you can have the best media plan in the world. Right. If the creative, the ad itself lets you down because it's wallpaper and people don't really notice it, it doesn't stand out from the context that you're in, does it really build any associations? Does it really then help you sell your brand? Very difficult. Yeah. And again, that's what the framework is about. The framework is saying you got to get all those things right. And the great things for us really, is that from a creative point of view, that there are so like almost this hardwired things that we have in our brains that we pay attention to as human beings. And the reason why I call them hardwired is because they've been around for Millenn, because these are the things that sort of helped us stay alive. And that's why one of the things that Sam and I talk about, surprise can be very powerful because from evolutionary, from a survival point of view, anything that's surprising in the context that I'm in, I pay attention to. Why? Well, because that surprise could be a threat to my life. And yes, that sounds a little bit of an exaggeration of where we are sitting here in our virtual world having a conversation but our brains still behave like that. Yes, technology has moved on heaps over the last few decades, but our brain actually, and I'm simplifying here, hasn't changed that much compared to when we were still living in the caves or in the savannah. We're still focusing on those things that keep us alive. And surprise is one of those things. The interesting thing about surprise though is that surprise is always relative to the context that you're in or to the associations, like the mental image that you have about a situation. For example, if you go to a library, we will so like know that in a library you got to be quiet. You can't be noisy. So the moment something very loud happens there, our brain is saying, hold on, that's a surprise. My mental frameworks says something different, I need to behave differently. Or something. That always made me smile because I was the same when I moved to the uk. When you're in the tube in London, usually all English people are fairly quiet, don't say much. The only people you hear is typically like as I was in the beginning, the tourist who is just talking and people wondering what's going on there. And you're getting those stares because our mental associations here, specifically culturally in the uk, is you don't talk too much on the tube, or at least you do it so quietly. So it's really understanding the context and the mental frameworks that you've built up to understand. How do I break out of that as a marketer? To really get attention for my audience.

B (21:30)

I created this podcast to help myself and others understand the power of brand building without all of the bs. So here's three no BS guides from my friends at Creative Business Company that you can download for free to drive impact. The Brand Investment Blueprint outlines the exact process they use to convince skeptical executives to invest in brand building projects and campaigns. How Challengers can Position for Growth explains how brands can find and leverage their hidden advantage to create brand marketing that sells. And last, my favorite how to Build a Big Brand on a Small Budget explores how to outsmart and overtake market leaders with more cost effective marketing. Go to creativebusinesscompany.com staff to download your free guides today. That's creativebusinesscompany.com Stef to download your free guides today. Back to the podcast. Yeah, I love that. And I think that's where a lot of issues arises. I think a lot of marketers kind of understand this idea of okay, you need to do something else. You need to do something different to get the Attention. And then of course, it needs to be done in a way that it's building the right associations. Where it kind of is hard, I think, is to do those things that are unexpected or different. We need to go like outside of the comfort zone. We probably need to go do things that our competitors aren't doing. And so basically, I think where a lot of things arises, we need to take risks. And that is very hard for a lot of companies. And maybe the hard part is getting buy in from, from a lot of different stakeholders. I don't know if you have any thoughts. How do we then create the environment where these risks can be taken and these surprises can be brought?

A (23:24)

I think you're absolutely spot on. I've seen this quite often where people sort of say, oh, this is a bit too far out of my comfort zone. I'm not going to do it. I'd rather go for the safe option. Right. Because at the end of the day I want my bonus when I have my end of year review. And I don't want someone saying, God, look what you've done, but you got to break the status quo. And I think a simple exercise, and again, it's about walking in the shoes of the consumers, is to go out there and look at the world, whether it's a physical world in the stores or the online world, or just looking at ads. How does our ad compare to everyone else? Again, are we just wallpaper or are we standing out? But it's not just to your point, not just about standing out for the sake of standing out. It's about doing it in a, in a way that people still recognize it's you. And also people then build the relevant so they catch your entry point. Associations with you. Yeah. Because standing out alone and doing something very different is not enough. One example that comes to my mind here, and I think within the marketing world, it was a hotly debated one, was the Burger King. Moldy burger.

B (24:25)

Yeah.

A (24:26)

And you know what's interesting is I also lecture at university and in the marketing world, we had a lot of debates around this. Probably came up in your podcast as well, I would have thought. But then I spoke to my students. No marketing students, not a single person had actually heard of that.

B (24:44)

Interesting.

A (24:45)

So it's, again, that's, for me, it's an example of like, in the marketing world, we think way too much about it. Yeah. We need to do things in a way that consumers pay attention to it. That consumers say, oh, wow, that really got my attention. So, like, and built the associations for our brand. So again, we need to go out there, we need to walk in the shoes of our customers and again, look at it like, what do they see? Is my ad blending in? Well, if it's blending in, how much is it really going to help me sell my product or my service? What can I do differently? But do it not just to be different, do it also in a way that we are distinctive. And I mentioned phones a few times earlier and very often when you look at ads for phones, they all look very similar. They show the screen. It's like black phone, strong colors, they all look the same. Unless you spend as a marketer a lot of time figuring out what the brand name is, it's difficult. Yeah. Again, as consumers, we don't do that. Yeah, Most people didn't even notice the moldy burger head. Right. Marketers, as we do. But all of my students, not a single one said, oh yeah, I know the ad. Yeah. So we need to look at it from that point of view and say, okay, what do people see? How can I stand out? And I think Apple are a good example of a company who often do that. Yeah. Their ads tend to then, for example, be more white to stand out, show the different contrast. Or a lovely example, which again shows my age a little bit, is when Apple brought out the ipod, not the ones for listening, the ipod, many, many years ago. And what did they do with the earphones? They had white ones, didn't they?

B (26:30)

Yeah.

A (26:31)

And what color did all the earphones have back then? They were black. So simply by putting something in that's different color that stands out, built that association to them. It built a distinctive asset. What did, for example, Samsung do later on? They also brought white ones out. But at that stage it was, and I'm exaggerating a bit, it was almost too late because you saw white and it was Apple. So every time someone saw white, they probably thought about Apple. And if you were Samsung, you probably have done Apple a favor with that. So long story short, yes, it's very difficult to do that because we, we don't often like to take risk. And sometimes when we take risks, we do it in a way of like just getting attention without building the right associations. But really start off by understanding what's the context of my brand operating, whether it's in a physical store, whether that's in advertising. Because the principle that the framework of associative attention applies to both areas, really think about the context and then find a way of telling a story internally of do we want to be wallpaper or do we want to stand out and drive people to our brand, product and service?

B (27:38)

Voila. I think that was an amazing way to actually end the podcast as we don't want to keep the people too long and we have their attention for the right associations. Max, thank you so much for coming on.

A (27:51)

Thank you for having me. It's been really great speaking to you.

B (27:55)

All right, that was it for this episode. As always, if you want to stay up to date on the latest episodes, check out the show notes and find out more interesting stuff about brand strategy and brand building. Visit letstalkbranding.substack.com that's letstalkbranding.subtrack.com.