The 5 brand religions with Kristof De Wulf

Summary

Podcast Summary: Let's Talk Branding – Episode: The 5 Brand Religions with Kristof De Wulf

Release Date: June 22, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of "Let's Talk Branding," host Stef Hamerlinck engages in a profound discussion with Kristof De Wulf, co-founder of Insights Consulting (now known as Humanate). The conversation delves into De Wulf's pioneering concept of the "Five Brand Religions," a framework designed to simplify and categorize diverse marketing philosophies into manageable, belief-driven systems. This long-form summary captures the essence of their dialogue, highlighting key points, insightful quotes, and practical examples.

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1. Understanding Brand Religions

Kristof De Wulf introduces the notion of brand religions as clusters of marketing philosophies, each with a core belief, prescribed behaviors (commandments), and an ultimate goal (Holy Grail). He explains that these religions are named so because, like actual religions, they revolve around fundamental beliefs and doctrines that guide practitioners' actions.

Kristof de Wolf [01:55]:
"We felt there is a need for some simplification, for some guidance, for some structure to help the marketing community deal with the abundance of knowledge out there."

De Wulf emphasizes that while these religions can sometimes contradict each other, understanding when and how to apply each is crucial for effective brand strategy.

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2. The Classic Religion

The Classic Religion centers on differentiation through Segmentation, Targeting, and Positioning (STP). This approach assumes that consumers have diverse needs—both functional and emotional—that brands must address uniquely.

Core Belief:
Differentiation is paramount; each consumer segment has distinct needs that must be met.

Commandment:
Implement STP to target specific segments effectively.

Holy Grail:
Build significant brand equity—a strong, recognizable brand with loyal associations.

Examples:

• Dyson: Challenged conventional beliefs by introducing a transparent dust container, providing users with visual reassurance of cleanliness.
• Volkswagen Beetle (1950s): Positioned the Beetle not as merely a functional vehicle but as a symbol of individuality and uniqueness in the US market dominated by large cars.

Kristof de Wolf [07:38]:
"The classic religion starts from differentiation as the most important thing that matters."

Merit in Today's Market:
The Classic Religion fosters decisive brand choices and specialization, allowing brands to excel within their chosen segments.

Kristof de Wolf [12:27]:
"We dare to make bold, brave choices and we are not here for everyone. That's a very deliberate choice."

Despite its strengths, De Wulf notes that the Classic Religion can lead to stagnation, as exemplified by traditional brand tracking measures that focus narrowly on metrics like awareness, which may not reflect true brand progress.

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3. The Penetration Religion

Emerging as a challenger to the Classic Religion, the Penetration Religion posits that loyalty is a myth. It argues that brands cannot rely on loyal customers alone and must focus on widening their customer base.

Core Belief:
Loyalty doesn't exist; brands should prioritize penetration over retention.

Commandment:
Ensure mass accessibility—be mentally and physically available to as many consumers as possible.

Holy Grail:
Achieve broad market penetration—a large, diverse customer base without relying on deep loyalty.

Examples:

• Coca-Cola: Historically emphasized widespread availability ("Always Coca-Cola") to maintain high market penetration.
• Red Bull: Transitioned from a niche energy drink targeting truck drivers to a global brand through mass accessibility.

Kristof de Wolf [13:49]:
"The core belief is loyalty doesn't exist. We've been thinking it exists, but it simply doesn't."

Merit in Today's Market:
The Penetration Religion addresses the reality of fragmented consumer attention and the diminishing returns of loyalty-centric strategies. It leverages system one thinking, where purchasing decisions are quick and often emotional, supported by distinctive brand assets like logos and slogans.

Kristof de Wolf [21:16]:
"People don't have time to process, to think. So you just have a couple of milliseconds where the Nike Swoosh or the Apple logo become critical."

Caution:
De Wulf warns against becoming extremist in this approach, advocating for a balanced strategy that remains adaptable to evolving consumer behaviors.

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4. The Influencer Religion

The Influencer Religion evolved with the rise of social media and user-generated content (UGC). It emphasizes the power of authentic, word-of-mouth marketing driven by influencers and communities.

Core Belief:
Brands are co-owned by consumers; authentic engagement and user advocacy drive brand success.

Commandment:
Foster word-of-mouth and community-driven promotion through influencers and loyal fans.

Holy Grail:
Achieve exponential word-of-mouth—a viral, self-sustaining promotional engine.

Examples:

• Harry Potter Theme Park Launch: Utilized seven passionate fans to generate immense buzz, reaching 350 million people within 24 hours.
• Tony’s Chocolonely: Implements a sampling strategy where customers share products with friends, organically spreading brand love.

Kristof de Wolf [24:43]:
"The holy grail is word of mouth. It's making sure that this is a never-ending machine that is catching on."

Challenges:
The sustainability of influencer marketing is questioned as brands increasingly adopt UGC tactics that may border on inauthenticity. Maintaining genuine influencer relationships is crucial to avoid diminishing returns.

Kristof de Wolf [28:36]:
"It can go wrong whenever you don't listen to the rule of authenticity."

Future Outlook:
While influencer strategies remain potent, their effectiveness hinges on maintaining authenticity and leveraging community connections genuinely.

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5. The Relationship Religion

The Relationship Religion focuses on building deep emotional connections between consumers and brands, treating brands as personable entities with whom consumers form meaningful relationships.

Core Belief:
Brands are like human personalities; building emotional bonds leads to brand love.

Commandment:
Cultivate emotional connections and brand personalities that resonate with consumers' identities.

Holy Grail:
Achieve brand love—a profound emotional attachment where consumers would miss the brand if it disappeared.

Examples:

• Nike: "Find Your Greatness" campaigns foster a sense of personal achievement and alignment with consumers' aspirations.
• BMW: Personal connection stemming from heritage and consistent brand messaging.

Kristof de Wolf [35:24]:
"Brands with a high emotional appeal, a very strong purpose, can achieve brand love, but it's rather the exception to the rule."

Merit in Today's Market:
While challenging to attain, strong emotional connections can differentiate brands in crowded markets. However, De Wulf notes that true brand love is rare and often limited to brands with significant heritage and purpose.

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6. The Experience Religion

The Experience Religion prioritizes creating memorable and holistic consumer experiences that transcend the mere functionality of products or services.

Core Belief:
Memories and experiences are more impactful than the products themselves.

Commandment:
Design multisensory, memorable experiences that delight and engage consumers on multiple levels.

Holy Grail:
Achieve high Net Promoter Scores (NPS)—indicating strong consumer advocacy and satisfaction.

Examples:

• Starbucks: Offers a consistent, multisensory experience with specific smells, music, and ambiance.
• Tomorrowland: Delivers a seamless and enchanting festival experience from registration to after-movies.

Kristof de Wolf [38:08]:
"Memories over merchandise. It's about what is sticky and what is memorable."

Merit in Today's Market:
Experience-driven strategies cater to consumers seeking more than just products—they desire meaningful interactions and memorable engagements with brands.

Kristof de Wolf [43:39]:
"The cap is not just the cap, it's also the sound at the same time and it becomes part of the brand."

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7. Combining Brand Religions

De Wulf advises that brands should define a dominant religion rather than attempting to equally adopt all five. However, interactions between religions are inevitable, and strategic combinations can yield robust brand strategies.

Guidelines:

• Life Stage: Brands evolve through different religions as they grow. For instance, Red Bull transitioned from Classic to Influencer, and now to Penetration as it matured.
• Industry Sector: Certain sectors, like personal brands (e.g., Taylor Swift), naturally align with specific religions such as Influencer.
• Strategic Choices: Aligning with overarching strategies like cost leadership, product leadership, or customer intimacy can dictate the dominant religion.

Kristof de Wolf [44:07]:
"It makes sense to define a dominant religion and not to think that combining five and giving equal weights is going to give you a great result."

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8. Conclusion

Stef Hamerlinck and Kristof De Wulf wrap up the conversation by acknowledging the complexity and interplay of the five brand religions. De Wulf emphasizes the importance of strategic choice and adaptability in navigating these frameworks to build successful, resilient brands.

Kristof de Wolf [47:39]:
"What you do is adopting other principles accordingly and change everything that goes along with it, including what you measure."

The episode underscores the necessity for brands to understand and apply these diverse religious philosophies thoughtfully, ensuring authenticity and strategic alignment in their branding efforts.

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Key Takeaways

• Brand Religions Framework: Simplifies diverse marketing philosophies into five core belief systems—Classic, Penetration, Influencer, Relationship, and Experience.
• Strategic Alignment: Brands should identify and adopt a dominant religion that aligns with their stage, industry, and strategic objectives.
• Balancing Act: While focused on a dominant religion, brands must remain adaptable, integrating elements from other religions to stay relevant and authentic.
• Authenticity is Crucial: Whether leveraging influencer strategies or building emotional connections, maintaining authenticity is essential for sustained brand success.
• Evolving Metrics: Traditional metrics like brand awareness may need reevaluation in favor of more nuanced indicators like NPS, depending on the adopted religion.

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Notable Quotes

• Kristof de Wolf [01:55]:
  "We felt there is a need for some simplification, for some guidance, for some structure to help the marketing community deal with the abundance of knowledge out there."

• Kristof de Wolf [13:49]:
  "The core belief is loyalty doesn't exist. We've been thinking it exists, but it simply doesn't."

• Kristof de Wolf [24:43]:
  "The holy grail is word of mouth. It's making sure that this is a never-ending machine that is catching on."

• Kristof de Wolf [35:24]:
  "Brands with a high emotional appeal, a very strong purpose, can achieve brand love, but it's rather the exception to the rule."

• Kristof de Wolf [38:08]:
  "Memories over merchandise. It's about what is sticky and what is memorable."

• Kristof de Wolf [43:39]:
  "The cap is not just the cap, it's also the sound at the same time and it becomes part of the brand."

• Kristof de Wolf [44:07]:
  "It makes sense to define a dominant religion and not to think that combining five and giving equal weights is going to give you a great result."

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides invaluable insights into the multifaceted nature of brand strategy, offering a structured approach to understanding and applying various marketing philosophies. Kristof De Wulf's Five Brand Religions framework equips brand managers and marketers with a nuanced lens to navigate the complex landscape of modern branding, ensuring that brands remain dynamic, authentic, and strategically aligned.

For more in-depth discussions on brand strategy and building powerful brands, visit letstalkbranding.substack.com.

Transcript

[Christophe de Wolf]

Red Bull. We all know the iconic brand has been going through a couple of religions, you know, historically. And actually Red Bull started off in a quite classic religion type thou shalt.

[Stefan]

Segment, thou shalt build relationships. These are all different types of brand religions. And today we're talking with Christophe de Wolf about the five most important brand religions, what you can learn from them, how you can combine them, and a lot more. So buckle up and let's talk branding. This episode is sponsored by Creative Business company. But more on that later.

[Christophe de Wolf]

Sure. So I'm Christoph. I indeed co founded Insights Consulting, which is now labeled Humanate end of the 90s. But I started my career as an academic, so I started my career at Vlaerick Business School, the renowned business school school most of us should know where I've taken different positions. I ended up also being a department head of marketing, trying to steer marketing professors in the right direction. But yeah, most of my professional life I've spent at, you know, building our own company from scratch, actually to where it is where it is now, which is a global, global agency serving the needs of global brands In I think, 20 different, 22 different locations in the meantime.

[Unknown]

Cool. Interesting. So maybe when I read Jan's book, there was this interesting concept of brand religions that was like a quote from, from you. Could you quickly just like explain us how that came to be? Like, why did you maybe invent those? Or where did the need arise to talk about brand religions in the first place?

[Christophe de Wolf]

Yeah, actually we didn't invent anything, but we have been recycling a lot. So because I think when you look at marketing literature, there is an abundance of many different streams of thoughts, many different concepts, frameworks that we need to deal with. And that's. Yeah, I mean, it's not easy to see the truth throughout all of the different concepts and disciplines and logics that are applied. So we felt it was maybe a good idea to create some, of course, simplification and try to cluster different schools of thought into what we then labeled religions. And now why religions? I think because if you look at all of those religions, they all have in some way a kind of core belief. And of course it's very characteristic of religion we believe something, maybe not having all the evidence, but we feel it's the right way next to the belief. I think there's also a kind of different commandments that are at play. Thou shall do A, B or C. Like these are prescriptions for behavior of how brand managers, marketing managers who deal with it. And I think also at the end of the day there is this kind of Holy Grail, the Holy Grail we are trying to achieve. And I think it is again, different from religion to religion. The nice thing about it, or maybe the problematic thing about it is those religions sometimes contradict each other or seemingly contradict each other. So we need to find out when does what apply, in what situation, what context can you combine religions and so on? We can touch upon that later, but we felt there is a time and a need for some simplification, for some guidance, for some structure to really help the marketing community deal with the abundance of knowledge that is out there.

[Unknown]

Yeah, we'll get into the different religions, of course, but maybe on a meta level, it's true what you said about sometimes it really feels like opposing schools of thought almost. And you can actually see it sometimes in the debates on Twitter, LinkedIn or I should say X, where people are like, oh, the Byron Sharp fanboys are here. And then there's other people saying, oh, no, no, these are the, the, the differentiation folk. And like there's, it's almost like tribal. Why do you think there are so many opposing or seemingly opposing religions in a profession that, you know, has some data or some kind of processes to work with in the first place?

[Christophe de Wolf]

Yeah, good point. And of course there is. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe there is a lot of data. But, you know, the more data we get, the more confused sometimes it becomes. I think data is not everything. I think it all starts from, and I think we shouldn't forget that. And obviously our background is market research. It always starts from a problem we want to solve for consumers, shoppers, buyers, people. It all starts from an insight where we feel the brand can be valuable to achieve something, and then only it is, let's say, the pathway to success, which then again is kind of called religion driven. I think Byron Sharp has created kind of a revolution, actually. Completely almost throwing away the principles of what we call the classic religion, which we might touch upon later. I think that was kind of a shock effect in the marketing community saying, oh my God, we've always felt like this is the right path and we are looking at the right data. But then through scientific evidence and lots and lots of research, it appeared that's not always the case, or more often than not it is. It is the case that, let's say the Byron shop or penetration religion is the right one. So, yeah, I mean, the simplification and the categorization just simply helps to give it some extra thought. Next to the data, sometimes conflicting data, we have or we are looking at?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Stefan]

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[Unknown]

Let's just maybe quickly cycle through them. We don't have to go too deep into all of them. There's been many podcasts on the different ones, but just like I'll give you the, the, the religion and if you can just like summarize it in a couple of lines. So let's start with the classic religion which you just talked about briefly, the classic one.

[Christophe de Wolf]

And maybe it's easy to always, you know, start from what is the core belief? And I think that will be helpful. What is the core commandment, let's say of how we should what is the prescribed behavior and then the holy Grail. So if we start from the core belief, the classic religion starts from differentiation is the, the most important thing that matters. And obviously when we say differentiation we think about the concept stp, which is segmentation, targeting, positioning. When we talk about segmentation, primarily we are talking about need based segmentation. So what do people need? And the assumption is actually that this religion believes the needs are very different. There are lots of different segments or with unique needs that we need to fine tune and find solutions for. We carefully need to think about targeting, which is of course more also financial angle. What is the most interesting segment? Can we identify the segment? Do we have the right media channels, distribution channels to talk to, communicate with the segment? So I think STP is kind of the core, core element there with differentiation leading the way. If we think about need based segmentation, maybe just a couple of examples because I think it's better to give some examples than just talk about the theory. Some of those needs are very functional. Right. I think Dyson let's take Dyson, the category of vacuum cleaners. For a very long time, people thought people don't want to see or marketeers thought people don't want to see the dust, don't want to see the dirt in my dust bag. But Dyson actually kept on asking deeper, deeper, deeper and actually found out that a transparent container where we actually see the dirt is just giving a reassuring feeling to people. Yeah, I know I've done a good job. I put in time, I see the result, I'm happy. It gives you a satisfying feeling. So they put everything kind of upside down, bringing this functional benefit. I can see dirt. I think that's just one example. The other one I would bring up is Volkswagen end of the 50s bringing the beetle to the US market. Now if you think about the US market back then, you think about Pontiacs, Buicks, like Cadillacs, really, really long vehicles consuming a lot of fuel. But end of the 50s, no parking problems, right? There was no functional need for a small car. But yet think small was the whole campaign of Volkswagen introducing this car. And it doesn't serve a functional need, it just serves a emotional, human need to be different. People want to express themselves, be seen, be recognized as unique individuals. So this all goes to need based segmentation, either functional, either emotional. So that's a core belief. We need to fulfill those unique needs. Then secondly, it's all about converting the funnel, right? Attention, interest, desire, action. We know the drill. It's like moving from one gate to the next and trying to do that as successful as possible. But of course it all starts from awareness. So mass marketing obviously is quite central to the classic religion. And then at the end of the day was the Holy Grail. The Holy Grail is brand equity. We want to create brands, we admire brands, we want brands that we identify with. But of course it's having the right associations, having that awareness in. And yeah, this is also if we look at measurements where the classic brand tracking studies come in with sometimes having the illusion of we are making progress. If you have a 98 awareness level, you move to 98.2. Did you make a difference? Not really. Should we still measure that? Probably not. So I think that classic religion at some point felt we're stuck. And I think that the success of the penetration religion and others is they found a way to deal with some of the seemingly nonsense things that we are doing, like measuring, measuring brand awareness, especially at high heights. It doesn't really make any sense. So that's a little bit the classic religion still relevant But I think the world has moved on and of course, other dynamics came into play.

[Unknown]

Interesting. So if you were to convert me to this religion, what would you say is like, the merit of still. What is the merit of this religion in today's market?

[Christophe de Wolf]

I think the merit is daring to make choices. Yeah, I think maybe another example that pops up. I've been a board of advisory member of bank van Breda, which is a bank for entrepreneurs and free professions in Belgium, in the Netherlands. And I think what is, what is striking about the way they position themselves is we are only here for free professions and for entrepreneurs. That's it. So don't knock on my door if you want to have a loan or if you want to, you know, whatever that banks offer us. We are here for two specific segments and we are proud of it. Our people identify with it. I think it creates that passion around choice making. We dare to make bold, brave choices and we are not here for everyone. And that's a very deliberate choice. And I think that's the big merit of that religion.

[Unknown]

Okay, very interesting. Let's maybe pick. I don't know if you have an order in mind. I just have them listed. We can go, well, maybe let's put the other obvious one, which is maybe the new one that, you know. Well, it's not new anymore. But anyway, the penetration religion, I think we need to get it out of the way so we could talk about some less popular or more interesting ones also.

[Christophe de Wolf]

No, I think, I think the order that you suggest to put the penetration next, I think is very logical because actually the penetration religion has been the attacker between brackets of the classic religion, going against a lot of the logic that has been applied there. So if we go to penetration, I mean, the core belief I think is. The core, core belief is loyalty doesn't exist. We've been thinking it exists. We have this big dream of creating those fantastic, strong brands that people are committed to forever. That simply doesn't exist. It's not a daily reality. So I think a couple of core insights, I think underlying this religion is no one buys a product more than what we require. Right. We don't have a warehouse putting all of our favorite products there just to wait for consumption at some point. So that's. We can only take in what we can take in. Secondly, a brand can never command 100% loyalty. So you know, Apple, which is of course one of the most iconic brands, the most valuable brand in the world. So if you go back to classic religion and you go back to interbrand The Global Brands Best Global brand study, it's more than $500 billion worth of brand value, mere brand value, which is, which is amazing but nevertheless every Apple buyer has a repurchase rate of only 55%. So that's kind of a shocking effect. Like we all think at least it should be 90% right? It's not. If you think about Harley Davidson, it's 33%. While you know, the Harley Davidson owners group, it's like all passion, it's all loyalty and it's, you know, a forever kind of thing that's, that's typically not the case. So loyalty doesn't really exist. At best, you know, when we talk about repertoire branding, we switch brands the whole time and Coca Cola buyers, the 72% of Coca Cola buyers also buy Pepsi. Again that might be a shocking result, but those are I think the proof points, the evidence, the data that came to service that of course undermines a lot of the classic religion, the double jeopardy effect. You know, typically if you are, if you don't have enough buyers penetration wise, if the base is not strong enough, you also see the consequences on frequency, which is a double jeopardy double negative effect for smaller market share brands. And so the leaking bucket principle, we need to fill continuously fill, look at the broad base, acquire new customers, new buyers to make sure we have a compensation for the lack of loyalty. I think that's a core starting point. I think the way to drive success or the commandment is be available everywhere for everyone. Which is all about availability. It's about mental availability. Does the brand pop up whenever we want it to pop up? Like for across different occasions? Does it. We know people don't give a lot of thought to choices. It happens automatically. It's system one thinking. It's fast, it's no, it's less rational, it's quite emotional. So you need to be available in the brain according to a broad set or across a broad set of occasions. And of course physical availability. Be there everywhere, wherever you can. And going back to the old days, Coca Cola has always been this with the old tagline, always Coca Cola. It has been there for a very long time, early 20s, all the way to mid-80s. This was the tagline. And availability was the, was, was the number one thing, the number one job that Coca Cola wanted to do. And I think it also taps very nicely into the story of Jan with Richie, which in a very creative way Yam is available mentally through you know, advertising, product placement and so on. But as a result of that, step by step also Expanding physical availability. So availability I think is, is the key thing. And then the holy grail is, is of course penetration. You know that, you know that broad base of users you need and not necessarily focusing on segments. I think I was in a meeting with very strong believers of the penetration religion. A very big fast moving consumer goods concern. I will not mention the name, but it was shocking to find out that you can believe something but you can also become an extremist. And in this meeting I used a couple of words I should never have used. I used the word segment. I was daring to criticize the power of television as a broadcast medium in today's age.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Christophe de Wolf]

So you know, I was not invited for a second meeting. Let's, let's go it like that. I think this is, this is risky because you can, you can get so excited about one religion that you become a very extremistic kind of marketeer. And I think still within penetration segments at least, understanding there are segments, it doesn't mean you should target them specifically is always important. You need to understand how customer behavior evolves. So don't get carried away too much to end up in an extremist position. I think that's also quite important to stress.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Sometimes. It's funny as Mark Ritson often refers to Byron Sharp as the Dark Lord and like some of his followers, like me even included at some point I was very saturated with this, this philosophy and it was hard to see anything else but that at some point you start building again and being more open and you see other things work that might contradict some part of this, this religion. So I agree that like maybe the biggest risk here is to not be so devoted to this single minded idea.

[Christophe de Wolf]

And it is a very strong religion and I also very much support it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Christophe de Wolf]

But just take all the other elements we have been learning throughout the last, what is it, 70, 80 years of marketing and brand building. It's not that everything is ready for the wastebasket. Right. It's about making those smart combinations. Still taking a bit of a distance. Yes. Looking at the data, the data is undeniable. Right. So I think that's also the strength of the penetration religion. And I think also there is emotion involved. I mean and the system one thinking is very much in it as well, with distinctive assets. Again of course one of the core elements in this religion as well. People don't have time to process, to think. So you just have a couple of milliseconds where of course the Nike Swoosh logo or you know, think about Apple logo or the Toblerone chunk, how it looks like, how it is shaped are so important to get to decisions and to get to buying acts.

[Unknown]

Let's talk about the influencer religion.

[Christophe de Wolf]

Yeah, the influencer religion is a child of the. I would say probably around 2010, 2009, you know, the Internet was there and we were talking about Web 2.0 social media. The rise of social media came up. We have this guy at Insights Consulting, Stephen Van Belligen, who is writing a book, the conversation manager. And I think it's the time everyone started realizing brands are not solely owned by brand owners or by companies. It's kind of the democratization of branding. You know, we all own the brand, we are the brand in a way. We love the brand, we want to show the love for the brand. And so it was not just about consuming advertising and messaging. It was about curating messages, sharing messages, creating new messages, and a whole new world opened up. I think that was very exciting times, actually. Of course, with fantastic results for certain brands. Sometimes also, it went the wrong way, right, with bashing brands and creating a lot of brand damage as a result of users doing that. But the influencer religion actually starts from the core belief, in a way you could say, going back to the old days, the medium is the message. And if you think about the medium is the message, of course, we talk about the difference between owned media and earned media, primarily. So paid versus earned. So if you go back to that old story, the medium is the message. We go back to the presidential debate between Nixon back in the days and John F. Kennedy. And for the small story, just commenting on that, I think it's a nice one. It was, it was aired in two ways, over the radio on the one hand, and television. So the different media on the radio, most of the auditors, most of the listeners said, well, I clearly think that Nixon has won this, right? It was more compelling arguments, more believable. He won the debate hands on, according to people on television, actually, the other way around. And it was the result of the fact that JFK was perceived to be more youthful. It came across as more good looking, more energetic. The other one was more tired. And I think a similar thing kind of happened with earned media. So earned media were perceived to be more believable, more authentic, more powerful, more close to us, our friends, you know, were there doing that. We went. And I think that's. That's a big difference. So, so, so it shifted a little bit from we own everything, we steer the conversation, we steer and control everything. In the classic religion to we open up to the world and we let them take charge and take the power to do that. So yeah, I think that's a kind of a belief. The medium is the message and the medium is shifting to. To the people, power to the people. That was the big promise back then. And a little bit of that has happened and a little bit of course has not.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Christophe de Wolf]

What was the name of the game then? I think it's creating those people centric ripples, you know, either micro targeted, I think extreme examples opening up the Wizarding world of Harry Potter. They targeted seven people. So seven extreme brand fans, bloggers actually. They set up a specific webinar to pre announce the release of the theme park and within 24 hours they reached 350 million people. So what you are doing, of course Steph is a bit the same podcasting and we spread the message and the love for marketing and branding. But from 7 to 350 million people in one day is astounding. It can be smaller of course as well. Think about Tony Chocolonely, a brand we know very well, a client of ours as well. It's kind of a rebel move, you know. Nobody is really listening to this turn Van der Kirken who is an entrepreneur, he said I want to do something about slavery in cacao industry. And actually he knocked on the doors of the big chocolate producers. Nobody wanted to listen. So I said I'm gonna do it on my own. But I mean why do I say small is spreading the love for the brand one step at a time. So what he does is sampling and sampling is when they sample, they sample. 2. One for your own consumption, one for your friends. Right. Share the family and friends and spread the words. So, so that that ripple effect is very, very central to the, to the, to the religion. And so the holy grail is actually word of mouth. Right. It's making sure that this is a never ending machine that is catching on. And we see exponential effects going on. Right. It's not just linear, it's really exponential thinking. Exponential word of mouth I think is a bit the logic behind the influence of revision. Yeah.

[Stefan]

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[Unknown]

Yeah, there's two things I'd like to pick up on. I think it's very interesting actually. Influencer religion Obviously there's been a bit of a hype, let's say on influencer marketing and some of it may be a bit over kill and like maybe not like everything. Yeah, like everything. But I do wonder like there's one, there is a trend we see that a lot of brands are like picking up on this, this UGC language where you know, it's people talking authentically about the brand but actually it's, it's ads. I'm, I'm wondering at one point do you think that like will be saturated by this type of messaging and it will no longer work as it did? That's my first question. Maybe let's start there.

[Christophe de Wolf]

That's a good one. It's a difficult one to answer how it's going to further evolve because I think you are right. I think it sounds really good and it has worked and it still works. But I think it can go wrong whenever you don't listen to the rule of authenticity. As soon as it becomes again a trick and we see that products and messages or you know, the clothes famous people wear and what they recommend becomes a little bit not authentic, not true to themselves. I think this is where the risk starts to build. Whether or not that is then still not generating results is something else. Yeah, because, because people love their fans. We are, people are showing a lot of herd behavior. We follow other people, we don't think about it too much. We like sometimes to think that people are processing this very deliberately but I think most of the time that's not the case. But of course if, if you really go against something which is not true to your to, to the influencer personality or you know, characteristics I think you go the wrong direction. Yeah, but yeah, I mean maybe interesting also is it's not just the influencer, it's the influence who are again becoming influencers. So I had the opportunity to join my daughters and wife to the Paris first concert of Taylor Swift which was of course amazing for a non swifty dad that I still am. But it Is. It is amazing. It is, it is. It is just, you know, all those tens of thousands of people gathering together, talking to each other as if they've known each other their whole lives, engaging with each other. So it's, it's still about Taylor and the great artist she is and the great marketeer she is.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Christophe de Wolf]

But it is also about a connection between the community members that is an engine of conversation, excitement, energy. Brand. Yeah, it's a phenomenon. It's phenomenon. Really?

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's. It's a fascinating story. Maybe let's. Because we have two more. Let's. Let's keep going. Relationship religion.

[Christophe de Wolf]

Yeah, relationship religion is. Is maybe a more traditional one. I think it is closer to classic that this religion is very much about emotional appeal. It's very much about the concept that brands are actually persons, personalities. And we identify with them. We see them as friends or we see them as enemies, but they are alive. You know, they talk to us, they behave. So this is really seeing the. Not human to human relationships, but human brand relationships. We really think we can build a relationship with the brand like we can with a human being. And you know, Kevin Roberts, Love Love Brands, for example, is one of the more iconic. Or Yuri's book, how Cool Brands they hold is another one which is quite close to this concept of we can, we can build. And so it starts from emotions and it really says, okay, emotions drive actions, primarily. Reason drives conclusions. But it's the emotions that make us move, make us decide, make us buy something. And this goes back to Paul Ekman's categorization, the six basic emotions and all of that. But emotions is the name of the game and this is the driver of action. And of course, if we talk about emotions, we think about iconic campaigns of Nike, we emotionally connect with the brand. Find your greatness campaigns. It's, you know, really getting that message across of how can we celebrate everyday persons all over the planet and create a warm feeling about it. Yes. You know, this is me, this is what I want. This is what the brand wants to support. Yes. So identify. I identify with this brand, which is the second one. It's about, yes, brand archetype thinking, you know, some. Some brands, you know, think about automotive. Tesla is the creator. It's like the new kid on the block, all about innovation. Volvo, the caregiver, protection, safety. Volkswagen, the car for everyday man and woman. So those archetypes, again, are an entry point to segments in a way. I like this. I like that my personality is like this. So brand archetypes, personal personalities, we try to link them up with human personalities. It's different from the classic one because it's less need based, I need this, I need that. It's much more who we are, how we think, what we want in life. And so this, this is this identification or congruence between brands and, and, and humans. And then the holy grail is, you know, brand love. You know, it's, it's really the kind of feeling that you know, if the brand would be gone, my life would be radically different. And this makes me think of, of the old story, I think we all know, but maybe the new generation talks about less. This iconic brand story of new Coke. Right. So the revolution, so, so New Coke back in the days or Coca Cola felt like in taste tests Pepsi is outperforming. So of course panic because Coca Cola, the authentic one, was losing out in taste testing. So they jumped to New Coke because taste tests said yes, this is the way to go, we do better. But obviously they, they brutally underestimated. The emotional connection to Coke was first. We were the first one. And of course they brought it back. They rejuvenated the authenticity and thinking about we are this authentic first brand. But this is what the relationship religion really wants to achieve. People saying no to the brand because you need to do what I love from you. So that's a little bit what this relationship is all about. And sometimes it's a, it's a next step, it's a build up, it's a natural follow up to the classic religion. Once you have this segment that you can serve, pretty much it's about moving much more into emotional, deeper needs compared to functional needs.

[Unknown]

Interesting. I mean obviously I think it's hard if you've studied a lot of these marketing religions to fully believe in this concept or strive for it as we know. I think brand love or loyalty has been been quite debunked. But still like what is the, the merit of this religion for a day to day mark?

[Christophe de Wolf]

I think it's still there. I think maybe what we, what, what we wanted to think is that a lot of brands qualify for this religion.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Christophe de Wolf]

And I don't think a lot of brands qualify for it. Some brands with a high emotional appeal, with a very strong purpose, with a lot of heritage can make it, but it is rather the exception to the rule. And I think we used to believe that everybody qualifies for this status of relationship and brand love. And I think that has turned out to be somewhat of an illusion. And definitely also the penetration religion has been debunking this kind of dream that we had, but it still exists. You know, I'm a big BMW fan. To make it a bit more personal, it goes back to my childhood. My father used to be the commercial director for BMW Belgium. So I grown up with the brands. That's quite exceptional. That's quite. That doesn't mean it holds for everyone. I think maybe at Max we have five brands, all of us that we could categorize. Yeah, maybe I have a relationship with the brand. Not more than five one hand, I would say Max. All the other ones will be closer to penetration, repertoire branding and no eternal love or mono brand thinking that. I think the classic religion has tried to make us believe this is this, this, this, this is, this is useful and this is helpful.

[Unknown]

And I think maybe like what happens sometimes when you strive for this relationship is maybe you never achieve that, but in that process you do make people aware or at least, you know, there's some, some mental awareness or mental availability happening. So in a way like by shooting for the moon, shooting for the stars, you could hit the moon. Which I think is something that happens often.

[Christophe de Wolf]

You are absolutely right. I think whatever religion you will follow or adopt or pursue by whatever you are doing, there are elements of other religions in there that you will have, you know, positive influence. So that's for sure.

[Unknown]

Yeah, let's take the, the last one and then maybe we can have a couple more questions about religions combinations. But experience religion, the experience one is.

[Christophe de Wolf]

Is I think a very relevant one, you might say, maybe a bit more skewed to make, let's say experience brands or service brands rather than, for example a sector like fast moving consumer could be brands. Nevertheless, there are also quite some fast movers that are following this religion, so to speak. I think experience Trump's product or service, it's all about more sustainable brand advantage. We can create by seeing the experience as a very holistic, broad ripple, let's say around the naked product. So this is all about this more multidimensional experience. So I think the starting point, the core belief is memories over merchandise. So it's all about the memory, it's all about what is sticky and what is memorable and what is, you know, something will carry with us for a very long time. And if you think about it, it's creating those wow effects, wow effects which can either be driven by something you do special for me. So, so that can be. Think about Levi's lot number one, like next level tailor made jeans, that you can make it something for me making Jeans to order. It can be about senses. Think about Starbucks. You know, it's all multi sensory. We come in, we have the smell. There is the type of, you know, furniture that you see. There is a specific kind of music. It's this brand holistic experience you. You get when you enter a Starbucks. And it's also consistent, Right. I think experience, you know, the. The power of brand consistency really comes into the experience religion. It's sometimes also not about consistency, sometimes surprise, positive surprise, obviously, it's about delight, you know, doing just a bit more, you know, Tomorrowland. Right. You know, you have concerts and then you have Tomorrowland. It's, you know, the Live today, live tomorrow, Unite forever. It's like this iconic slogan, but bringing that into practice, from the registration experience all the way to the after movie and everything in between is one, you know, step by step process of experiences built one after the other that are meant to step beyond what we expect. Yeah. And then I think at the end of the day, it's. It's also about giving employees the power to do something special. Right. Because it's. It's not just dreaming it, I want it. It's bringing it into practice, which is here, that the tough nut to crack. It's not just a campaign, right? Experience happens on the shop floor. It happens in moment of consumption, moments of buying. And this is where brands need everyone to chip in and to deliver that every day. And then the holy grail probably then is nps, Right. I think NPS is. Net Promoter scores. We talked about it a lot also. Yeah. What is the right metric to look at? Well, sometimes NPS still matters. Of course, NPS has been getting its fair share of criticism as well, but I think within experience, it makes sense. Within the other religions, again, it feels a little bit. This is. This is not the right metric to look at, but I think it makes sense as well. And maybe a final thing to round off with a nice one is also, I think is eat your own dog food principle. So the experience religion also starts from stepping into the consumer shoes reality as it is, not as we advertise it, not as we want it, but as we feel it is. And a funny example I love there, you can take this quite literally. I'm not sure whether this brand or this company still exists, honestly speaking, but it's a brand called Calcan Pet Food. Not sure whether you're aware of it. So it's a dog food company. And at the annual shareholder meeting, and it's a bit of a gimmick, the CEO is rumored to eat a can of dog food every shareholder meeting. And that is quite literal, but I think the essence of it literally is eat your own dog food. And there are lots of examples there as well with Van de Velde, the E Cup competition where men wear bras and carry weights to feel how women process. And so that is, I think, an essential element to continuously challenge you as a brand. Are you doing enough to delight and do you understand the brutal reality of not delivering the brand every single day with bad examples? NMBS in Belgium and so on. But we'll not dwell on those.

[Unknown]

No, but I think it's very interesting as a concept and I think, I mean any brand should think about the whole experience and it's even small things. Like again, if we go back to Richie, the twist off cap is a small thing, but it almost becomes like an asset for the brand that you can start talking about because it makes it different and memorable.

[Christophe de Wolf]

It's brilliant. I mean, Richie, I'm a big brand fan and user, but indeed, what you mentioned, the cap, it's a very small thing, but it's not just the cab, it's also the sound at the same time and it becomes part of the brand and which is again, going back to distinctive assets. Yeah, great job.

[Unknown]

It's enough, enough fanboying. Okay, maybe just to, to wrap it up because I can imagine people are listening and thinking, okay, I mean some, there's maybe some bias to certain religion or certain beliefs. Like how do you even go about maybe thinking about what religion is right for you? Or maybe it's a combination of religions and how do you go about that?

[Christophe de Wolf]

Yeah, good, good question. First of all, I believe it makes sense to, to define a dominant religion and not to think that combining five and giving equal weights is going to give you a great result. So that's definitely, I'm a non believer of that. At the same time, there are clearly interactions between the different religions. So that's one. But I think it pays off to make a choice. If you then think about what religion to go for, obviously the different drivers, it could be life stage. So, so if, if, if we go back to maybe an example of Red Bull. Red Bull, we all know the iconic brand has been going through a couple of religions, you know, historically. And actually Red Bull started off in a quite classic religion type segmenting people who need to stay awake, very functional truck drivers, you know, that that was the core, core group. It then gradually became kind of an influencer brand. Yeah, you know, extreme sports, you know, people think about the Felix Baumgartner stunts they pulled off, like throwing someone from space back to back to earth. So influencer religion was, was big at some point with a lot of success. I think now it's clearly more of a penetration brand. Right. They, they have grown up. They are a well established brand. They sell 12 billion cans every single year now. So it has matured. So the maturity phase, the staging, where you are, are you a small brand, are you a big brand? I think really matters. I think what also matters is sector industry. You know, obviously personal brands like Taylor Swift, by definition, almost, they're condemned to the influencer religion. More or less.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Christophe de Wolf]

You know, it's. It's close to experience. And influencer service brands are more skewed to influencer, more relationship driven, fast moving, much more penetration. Right. Depending on the life stage. It depends also on strategy. You know, strategy is choosing what not to do. So, you know, holistically there are three things you can do. Cost leadership, it's product leadership, or it's customer intimacy. So depending on what you do, if it's customer intimacy, obviously you are closer to a relationship religion. Right. To an experienced religion. So there is no one size fits all. I think a choice helps, but you need to think about, who are we, where are we? Also the markets, is it the mature markets? Is the category to be developed or not yet, how many, how much competition is in the market? I think all those drivers are pointers in the direction of where to start. But the example of Red Bull also shows when you grow up as a brand, you tend to adopt other principles. The thing is, then you should also change everything that goes along with it, including what you measure. You know, again, going back to my old love, market research, it is astounding to see that most of the brands still do just classical brand tracking, as if there is only a classic religion. And that's a bit, you know, doesn't really, doesn't really resonate. It's not a modern way to think about how you should be tracking success and following up to that.

[Unknown]

All right. I mean, I think we could talk for a couple of hours more on each of the religions and how to combine them. But first off, thank you for walking us through. I think you did an amazing job to compile all of this in 45 minutes. So thank you, Christoph.

[Christophe de Wolf]

My pleasure, Stefan. It was great to be here and congratulations on your podcast. I think it's brilliant.

[Unknown]

Thanks a lot.

[Stefan]

All right, that was it for this episode. As always, if you want to stay up to date on the latest episodes. Check out the show notes and find out more interesting stuff about brand strategy and brand building. Visit let's talk branding.substack.com that's less.