Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Narcissists and How To Deal!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Let's Talk Off Camera with Kelly Ripa

Episode Title: Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Narcissists and How To Deal!
Release Date: November 26, 2025
Host: Kelly Ripa
Featured Guest: Dr. Ramani Durvasula (Clinical Psychologist, NYT Bestselling Author of "It's Not You")
Notable Call-Ins: Andy Cohen, Kelsey, Christine, Lisa

---

Overview of Episode

This energetic and candid episode dives deep into the complex topic of narcissism—how to recognize it, how to cope with it (especially during high-conflict times like the holidays), and how it affects relationships of all kinds. Dr. Ramani Durvasula, one of today's leading experts on narcissism, offers practical guidance for listeners wrestling with narcissistic partners, friends, co-parents, and family members. The episode features listener call-ins with real-life scenarios, including from Andy Cohen, and explores strategies for protecting yourself without sacrificing your empathy or boundaries.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Narcissism and Spotting the Signs

• Not Just a One-Off Behavior:
  Narcissism isn’t a label to throw around lightly; it's a pattern, not an isolated incident.
  • "[People say]: 'My friend blew me off for dinner, they’re a narcissist,' … Maybe, maybe not. You can't just go on one thing… We're looking for stuff that happens over time." (Dr. Ramani, 14:31)
  • Key traits include chronic competitiveness, entitlement, lack of reciprocity, refusal to apologize, and habitual blaming.
• Popular Misuses:
  The term "narcissist" is often misapplied and diluted.
  • "People attach it to everything… Like I said, one time a person is not nice to them, 'Oh, they're a narcissist.' I don't know about that." (Dr. Ramani, 15:57)

2. Is There “Healthy Narcissism”?

• Dr. Ramani pushes back strongly on this idea:
  • "Healthy narcissism is sort of like healthy heroin. There's no such thing. It's bad. It's always bad for you." (Dr. Ramani, 16:20)
  • What we call "healthy narcissism" is actually healthy ego—assertiveness without entitlement, boundaries without insults.

3. Dealing with Narcissists: Radical Acceptance & Disengagement

• Don’t try to “win” or get the narcissist to change.
  • "Your best approach is wise and warm disengagement… Make the conversation about them and you and pretend it's a really boring podcast… But you don't want to get in the mud with them." (Dr. Ramani, 19:03)
• Radical Awareness: Recognize their limitations; stop expecting support, empathy, or fair treatment.
• Holiday Survival: Tailor your exposure, keep interactions shallow, and don’t over-share.

4. Gaslighting Explained

• It’s not merely lying or disagreeing; it’s a pattern of eroding someone’s perception and sense of reality.
  • "Gaslighting is when you doubt the memories, the perceptions, the experience of another person… And then you tell them there's something wrong with them… that combo is gaslighting." (Dr. Ramani, 20:42)

5. "Winning" with a Narcissist (Andy Cohen's Question)

• Indifference Is Power:
  • "If you really do want to hurt them, you can't show any emotion… If you can really communicate with your eyes and your face that you pity them, you've just won. Because there's nothing a narcissistic person hates more than the idea that somebody pities them." (Dr. Ramani, 44:16)
  • Don’t try to convince them; your lack of reaction, or mild pity/contempt, is your only leverage.

6. Narcissism and Trauma Bonding

• Sometimes, victims stay in toxic relationships due to the intermittent reinforcement of good/bad times.
  • “Narcissistic relationships are what we call trauma-bonded relationships… that back and forth and that tendency to blame ourselves keeps everyone… feeling stuck.” (Dr. Ramani, 28:58)

7. Parenting, Co-Parenting, and Narcissism

• Talking to Children:
  Telling kids their parent is a narcissist complicates their loyalties and is often counterproductive.
  • "You can't tell the kids you think their dad is narcissistic… Even kids feel loyalty, even to the most abusive parent." (Dr. Ramani, 38:48)
  • Instead: Listen, empathize, never gaslight, and be the safe space.
• Center the Victim (e.g., the Child):
  • “Center the child. That’s what matters here… You don’t have to be rude… but don’t knock yourself out trying to do all this love, compassion stuff… it often is gonna get weaponized and used against you.” (Dr. Ramani, 35:21)

8. Narcissism and Addiction

• There are high rates of overlap.
  • “The research shows actually quite a bit of overlap between the two… People who have the presence of both addiction and narcissism… tend to feel much more entitled about it, make more excuses about it… even when… sober, their sober is better than everybody else's. I'm the king of sobriety, you know?" (Dr. Ramani, 49:42)

9. Narcissistic Parents—Real-Life Impact

• Narcissism is best understood as a personality style, not a treatable illness.
  • “I’m not a fan of calling narcissism a mental illness… It’s a personality style… often can come out of a dark place… but the majority of kids who grow up with adversity don’t become narcissistic.” (Dr. Ramani, 54:08)
• Healing requires accepting the limits of the relationship, focusing on self-worth, and maintaining boundaries.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The “Healthy Narcissism” Myth:
  "It’s sort of like healthy heroin. Like, there’s no such thing. It’s bad. It’s always bad for you."
  – Dr. Ramani, 16:20

• On Winning Arguments:
  "If you can really communicate with your eyes and your face that you pity them, you’ve just won. Because there’s nothing a narcissistic person hates more than the idea that somebody pities them."
  – Dr. Ramani, 44:16

• On Trauma Bonds:
  "…even when a person’s like, ‘this is not healthy, but I cannot seem to get out of it,’ it’s often created by that alternation between good and bad."
  – Dr. Ramani, 28:58

• On Parents and Loyalty:
  "Even kids feel loyalty, even to the most abusive parent."
  – Dr. Ramani, 38:48

• On Setting Boundaries:
  "Your best approach is wise and warm disengagement… Make the conversation about them… pretend it’s a really boring podcast."
  – Dr. Ramani, 19:03

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [13:18] – Dr. Ramani Introduction: How she became an expert on narcissism
• [14:31] – Main signs and patterns of narcissism
• [16:20] – “Healthy” narcissism? Dr. Ramani’s strong stance
• [19:03] – Coping strategies & disengagement advice for holidays
• [20:42] – Gaslighting: What it really means
• [28:58] – Trauma bonds and the struggle to break free
• [30:21] – Navigating friendships you can’t just “cut off”
• [31:26–36:19] – Kelsey in Arizona: Supporting a child while dealing with a narcissistic adult
• [36:33–42:39] – Christine in Ohio: Co-parenting with a diagnosed narcissist
• [43:08–46:49] – Andy Cohen’s call: “How do you win against a narcissist?”
• [49:42] – Connection between narcissism and addiction
• [51:51] – Lisa in Ohio: Growing up with a narcissistic mother; impact and recovery

---

Episode Tone & Style

• Candid, Unfiltered, and Sometimes Playfully Irreverent: Kelly Ripa’s humor and honesty drive the show, while Dr. Ramani’s expertise and compassion anchor the advice.
• Empathy for those affected is front and center, with validation for people’s experiences (“You are doing great,” “Give yourself space for that hurt.”)
• The show blends professional insight with real-life scenarios and witnessing, making complex psychological concepts relatable and actionable.

---

For New Listeners

If you’re dealing with narcissism in any area of your life, this conversation will give you clarity, validation, and concrete steps to protect yourself and set boundaries. Dr. Ramani offers not just definitions, but survival strategies—radical acceptance, wise disengagement, and understanding your own worth beyond a narcissist’s reach.

---

Dr. Ramani’s Book:
"It's Not You" – Highly recommended by Kelly and referenced multiple times as the go-to guide on this topic.

For more resources or to join Dr. Ramani’s network:
Visit dr-ramani.com

---

Episode highly recommended for anyone seeking to understand narcissism, especially ahead of potentially stressful holiday interactions.

Transcript

[Kelly Ripa]

Struggling to see up close. Make it visible with viz. VIZ is a once daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours. The most common side effects that may be experienced while using VIZ include eye irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches, and eye redness. Talk to an eye doctor to learn if VIZ is right for you. Learn [e-mail] when it comes to gifting, everyone on your list deserves something special. Luckily, Marshall's buyers travel far and wide, hustling for great deals on amazing gifts so you don't have to. That means your mom gets that cashmere sweater, your best friend that Italian leather bag. Your co workers unwrap their favorite beauty brands, and your nephews the coolest new toys.

[Jan]

Go ahead.

[Kelly Ripa]

At prices this good, you can grab something for yourself too. Marshalls, we get the deals. You gift the good stuff. Shop [e-mail] or find a store near you.

[Andy Cohen]

I want to know, how do you fight with a narcissist and win? Like, is there any winning in getting like these narcissists? You know, when they come for you, it seems impossible. How do you get them? How do you, how do you win against them? Is there any way, you know, Andy.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

It depends on what you're calling a win here. Right? I mean, there's wins that there's wins.

[Andy Cohen]

I want to hurt them.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

You want to hurt them.

[Kelly Ripa]

Somebody got to cue me or do I cue myself?

[Lisa Mantineo]

Cue yourself.

[Kelly Ripa]

Ok. Oh, this is another live episode of let's Talk off camera. Jan, Albert, everyone. I have been wanting to do this episode for such a long time. I mean, since day one. Since day one, I've been saying we need to do this episode. Everyone needs to listen up. If you are driving, you should probably pull over. You're gonna need this one. This is the. We are giving you effective, useful therapy right before Thanksgiving, right before. You're really gonna need it, everyone. All right. But before we get to our guest, Lisa, who is Andy Cohen's producer, is back from Bravocon. Now, I think it's appropriate that we are covering the topic of narcissism today because something tells me, Lisa, that a confirm or deny may have encountered a narcissist. Or two. One or two. One or two. Okay. How was Bravocon? It looks bigger and better than ever.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

It's massive. I was telling Albert that the last one I went to was in 2022 when it was here in New York. And this is like that on steroids, right?

[Kelly Ripa]

It's Vegas, right?

[Kelsey]

Yes.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah. Vegas is wild.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah. They're built for the wilds. Conventions.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Exactly, Exactly.

[Kelly Ripa]

Okay, so which housewives did you see? Who was. Who was. Like, of all the people that you had to encounter, who was the one? Or you can just give me a. You can give me a. What fruit do they hold? Like, who was the biggest pain in the ass?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kelly Ripa]

Biggest pain in the ass.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

I. It. I wouldn't say it was a housewife. Who was the biggest pain in the ass? I. Well, and not even pain in the ass. Like, the ick factor.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah. Who was the ick ick?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

It was definitely Slade Smiley.

[Jan Chile]

How was Gretchen in person?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Gretchen seemed lovely, and she looked great, you know, in the bright lights on the blue carpet, which was in the press room. You know, Slade was sitting over there supporting her. And so I went over to him. That might have been my fault, but.

[Kelly Ripa]

I went over and said, oh, you.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Know, we just think it's so nice just watching you supporting her. And he says to me, it's not like I have much of a choice.

[Kelly Ripa]

That's nice. Okay. Oh, my gosh. Salty slate.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Wow.

[Kelly Ripa]

Maybe he's tired. Maybe he needs a nap. Were the Jersey housewives there?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

There were. There was Dolores, fresh off of her engagement at the Apple Store.

[Jan Chile]

Did you know she got engaged at the Apple Store?

[Kelly Ripa]

I didn't know it was at the Apple Store. No, I did not. You know what? Everything is in my feed now. My feed.

[Jan Chile]

The Apple Store.

[Kelly Ripa]

The Apple Store. Right. What? Nothing says romance like the. What are they called?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Computer nerds.

[Kelly Ripa]

The computer. The eight stars. The Genius bar. Yeah, the Genius bar. Did you say I do Nerds? Yes, Sorry. Right, sorry.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Teresa was there, and Melissa and Joe Gorga. And I would say the big news is there was a reconciliation.

[Kelly Ripa]

Okay.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Teresa. I did see her hug her brother, and she did pose for photos with Melissa. So I, you know, can't. I can't say the last time they've been seen in the same place as one another.

[Kelly Ripa]

Wow.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

So, yeah.

[Jan Chile]

Were there any feuds? Anybody feuding?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

There were definitely some feuds. The big one that's come out within the last 24 hours is between Madison Lacroix from Southern Charm and side Da Silva from. From New York.

[Kelly Ripa]

Right, and what's that about?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Madison's saying that Psy is, you know, basically the worst person she's ever met. And Psy's rebuttal saying, I don't even know you, We've never met. And then Madison showing a photo of the two of them from two years ago at BravoCon, sitting next to each other. Oh, so, you know, you know, real substantial stuff here.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah, no, I'm glad it's a war based on something substantial.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Photo.

[Kelly Ripa]

And somebody not remembering the other person.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Yes. But I would say, okay, so I had that Slade encounter. But then on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, John Barlow, Lisa Barlow's husband, is the nicest man.

[Kelly Ripa]

Wow.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Nicest human.

[Kelly Ripa]

Wow. Yeah.

[Jan Chile]

So what is he doing with her?

[Kelly Ripa]

Sorry.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

He celebrated his birthday there.

[Kelly Ripa]

Really? Yes.

[Jan Chile]

Okay. Okay, here's my question.

[Jan]

Yes.

[Jan Chile]

So on Salt Lake City, it was insinuated. Well, not insinuated. They kind of said it. That Heather Gay had hooked up with that Captain Jason reaction.

[Kelly Ripa]

Right, right, right. Yeah. Captain Jason.

[Jan Chile]

Jason below deck. Like, did we see. Were they, like, together?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

There's definitely some footage of them on a panel sitting next to each other, very cozy. And she's rubbing his knee. So, I mean, I've known Andy for a long time. You won't catch me rubbing his knee.

[Kelsey]

Right.

[Kelly Ripa]

You know, I've rubbed Andy's knee. I'm very tactile with Andy. I. I would rub his knee, which is. Which says everything you need to know. But what I want to know is here's the stat. I want. I want this stat. I want to know the hair extension budget just for Bravoco alone. I want to know. There was. I. Because, you know, I watch. I watch all season long, and then I watch the reunions, and there's always like a hair transformation on everyone from the season. It's like they figured out what they. How they went wrong during the season, and they fix it at the reunion. And by fixing it, I mean they have cascading hair weaved all over the place. And then you go to Bravocon, and I'm like, so then they watched the reunion, and then they were like, you know, I didn't have enough hair at the reunion. And so for Bravocon, I'm going to get more hair. It's really like, those are the unsung.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Heroes, the hair and makeup team.

[Kelly Ripa]

For sure. They really are. Where were the after hours and where was everybody staying? How late was that going?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

So all the Bravo labs were staying at the Four Seasons. And definitely night one Thursday night, there was an after party there that I've heard some people were out and up until 5am wow.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

So it was going to be all night long. I'm surprised there hasn't been more leaked footage from it.

[Jan Chile]

Oh, my God.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

That's what I really want to see.

[Jan Chile]

Everybody was hooking up with everybody.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Did anybody not go back to their room? That Night, good looking.

[Kelly Ripa]

Steve.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

I would say, you know, if we're. If we're gonna. I can speculate. If I'm gonna speculate with, you know, speculate. I would say that definitely the guys from Southern Charm didn't go back to their room every night.

[Jan Chile]

Oh, my God.

[Kelly Ripa]

Right.

[Jan Chile]

That Craig is single now.

[Kelly Ripa]

Right.

[Jan Chile]

He's a hot commodity there where all.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

The girls all grow.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

And he's letting his hair grow like Andy's, right?

[Kelly Ripa]

Yes. Right. I love Andy's hair, by the way. I think he looks like. The Marlon Brando character in Superman. Like Jor El. Superman's dad, Jor El, where he had this cascading. You know, Marlon Brando was clearly wearing a wig, and Andy is not. But it's a very reminiscent of. He's got Superman hair.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Yes.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yep. I love it. Did you find it, Jerrell? Yeah, Jerrell. It's Jerrell. Yep. You're right. Yeah. Did you see the picture? No. You gotta. You gotta Google image it.

[Jan Chile]

You know who else is growing his hair out that it was at the Bravo con. What's going on?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Jerry OConnell.

[Kelly Ripa]

Jerry O' Connell's hair is wild. I've got it. Like, I'm gonna call him. I actually meant to call him and say, babe, what's happening? There's a lot of hair. I know. He's like. He's like, I'm not working right now. I can do whatever I want. I'm in California. You know, I'm just gonna go for it. But I'm like, no, now there's too much hair. There's devil may care hair, and then there's just, like, devilish hair.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

I want to know where he gets all his energy from.

[Kelly Ripa]

He's just the best person. He really is Jerry o'. Connell. I'm going to say it. I've said it before. I will say it again. He is the best person you want to know who's not a narcissist. Jerry o'. Connell. That's right. Jerry o' Connell is the opposite of a narcissist.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

While I was running back to the media room, I passed him and just a line of women just surrounded him to take photos. And he didn't turn any one of them down.

[Kelly Ripa]

He won't. He does not. He does not have that in his ability. And he's always, like, delighted and tickled. He's not like. It's not like he walks away and goes, ugh, that was painful. Like, we've seen people do that. I've seen people do that. He is not that guy. He is like a really. He's a good one. He's a good one. Was Rebecca there?

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

No, she wasn't.

[Kelly Ripa]

Oh, that's a shame, because I know she loves Bravo so much.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

No, but he was all over the place.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah, he was. He was like, busy. He was working.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

And what was the envelope opening snafu.

[Kelly Ripa]

That was all over Instagram.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Oh. So there was an awards ceremony called the Bravos.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yes. Which we believe was ripped so straight from our show. You can take it up with Andy. We used to have something called the Relly Awards where we gave because we would never win an Emmy. So we started giving awards to ourselves and we called them the Rellies. And we would have like best guest, walk on best, you know, best chat, best host, chat and wacky. Where we couldn't. Where we couldn't lose. We couldn't lose.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Well, this year they were shaped. They were in the shape of the gay shark.

[Kelly Ripa]

And.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Teresa Giudice says. And the Oscar goes too.

[Kelly Ripa]

Of course she did. Yeah, of course the Oscar goes.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

It's so good.

[Kelly Ripa]

Teresa is the gift that keeps on giving. She really is. All right, all right, let's get started, everyone. Okay. Everybody has these people in their lives. If you are listening to this, if you made it through our Bravo recap, there's a colleague that you work with that takes credit for everything, especially your work. That would be. That's Jan's passive aggressive way of telling me that I take credit for her work.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kelly Ripa]

There's the date that ghosts you, the partner who gaslights you, the family member that makes every holiday a disaster. Oh, just the one, Jan. And that friend who loves to rally around you when you lose, but somehow is never there to celebrate your wins. How do we navigate these toxic relationships? Today we have the expert. And I mean the expert. Dr. Ramani Durvasula is a clinical psychologist and the New York Times bestselling author of it's not you. It's a must read. Everybody. You gotta pick it up. Pick it up. Give it a Google. Find it anyway. She is here. She's going to help us navigate through the world of narcissism. That's right. It's all over your Instagram feed. You know, it is narcissism pages and stories of it. It's. It's in everybody's feed right now.

[Jan Chile]

It's in everybody's life.

[Kelly Ripa]

It's in everybody's life. She's going to teach us how to navigate high conflict relationships. If you're calling about your boss, we can give you a pseudonym. You can remain completely anonymous.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Y.

[Kelly Ripa]

Anyway, let's welcome her now. Dr. Ramani, thank you for joining us. Hi.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Thank you. Hey. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to have this conversation with you ahead of the holidays.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yes, Especially it's more needed now than ever. Tell us about yourself. How did you get into this world?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah, I kind of stumbled into it, and I was geeking out on narcissism as a professor, and I got really interested in it there, so it wasn't like some grand personal quest, but ultimately it became one. And then I was working with more and more patients who were going through these relationships, and I really went down the rabbit hole. And then one day I realized all we do is talk about the narcissistic people, but we don't talk about what happens to the people in these relationships. And that's what I've been doing ever since, for a long time. Over 20 years.

[Kelly Ripa]

It's incredible the way you sort of dole out your advice. Like I told you before, I'm constantly sending, like, clips of you to people I know that need to hear, like, oh, this is how. This is. This is your situation. This is what you need to do. What are the biggest signs in, like, how do we spot a narcissist?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

I wish it was easier, Kelly. And everyone's like, tell me the five red flags to look for. Because it's not just one thing. The big mistake people will say is, my friend blew me off for dinner. They're a narcissist. My boyfriend was flirting with the waitress. He's a narcissist. Maybe, maybe not. You can't just go on one thing. We're looking for stuff that happens over time. A person who is. You gave a lot of great examples. A person who's constantly competitive with you. They'll call you and expect you to be on the phone with them for hours. But the first time you call them and say, hey, I'm going through something, like, I'm really busy. I don't have time for this. Or you can hear that they're, like, crunching on their lunch or doing something else. When you're going through something very real. These are people who are only comfortable in a relationship with you when they've got something over you. But when your star starts rising, they're either gonna bring you or they're going to insult you or make passive aggressive comments about it. These are the friends, partners, family members who are entitled. They're entitled to your time they have entitled behavior in public. They're folks that don't ever really apologize. When they do, when they do something bad, they blame you for. You know why I did this? Because you're a jerk to me. You know why I did this? Because I don't feel supported by you. You want to know why I cheated on you? Because you don't pay enough attention to me. So you. But this stuff happens repeatedly over time. It's not a one off. And trust me, by the time most people realize they're a narcissistic relationship, they've probably been in it for a while. Unfortunately, the term has gotten so popularized.

[Kelly Ripa]

People attach it to everything.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

They attach it to everything. Like I said one time, a person is, is sort of not nice to them. Oh, they're a narcissist. I'm like, I don't know about that. So we have to be careful in how we use the word.

[Kelly Ripa]

What, what, like, are there. To my understanding, there are different levels of narcissism. Yeah, right. And is there, is there a healthy narcissism?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

I don't like the word, I don't like at healthy narcissism. You know, I, I, I mean, I don't know. It's, it's sort of like, like healthy heroin. Like, there's no such thing. It's bad. It's always bad for you. And so the reason I don't like the term healthy narcissism is because narcissism in and of itself contains these, these lapses in empathy, the entitlement, the grandiosity, the pathological selfishness. This stuff is never healthy. I think when people say healthy narcissism, they mean healthy ego. Like a person who says, you know what? I'm going to set a boundary on this one. You know, I can't, I can't, I can't keep coming over to your house 20 times a day to help you out or, you know, I can't, my kid's sick, so I can't do X or Y. So that's healthy ego. Or asserting yourself saying, you know, my opinion is this, and I know we don't agree on this one, but I really want to make my point of view known. But you're not insulting the other person. So I think that that's healthy ego. And I think we get into messy ground when we start talking about healthy narcissism because the stuff that comprises narcissism isn't healthy in any form.

[Kelly Ripa]

Do you, this is an interesting thought process that I was just, you Know, sort of contemplating when you are seeing a patient. Okay. And they clearly are exhibiting all of the signs and symptoms of narcissism. Do you tell them that?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Not out the gate. It's definitely a bad conversation starter. It's a slow burn. You got to sit with it for a while. Right. Like I am. You know, no therapist is going to say, okay, this is it. They've said this one thing. We sit with it for a while, we look at our notes, we pay attention. Though I will say I've had clients way back in the day where it was going on long enough, I would say to them, yeah, you know what, this feels a little narcissistic. And they said, I thought you were gonna say that. I've had clients come into my office and say, sit down and say, I'm a narcissist. Fix me. You know, so it's. There's some people who actually come in, they're kind of self aware. They realize they're blowing up their life. We still don't make a ton of progress. We make a little. But I mean, I'm certainly not going to use the term with somebody who I know it's going to explode their head if I use it. Instead, I'll talk about like, this thing you're doing is not. That sounds like that's going to be really hard for your wife or how do you think that other person felt when you said that? Usually they'll just get mad at me. It's hard work for a therap therapist. These are often clients that push back, insult you. You definitely not the client you want to end the day with.

[Kelly Ripa]

What is the best way that we should be dealing with a narcissist in our life?

[Jan Chile]

Going into the Thanksgiving.

[Kelly Ripa]

Going into.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Going into Thanksgiving, I would say your best approach is wise and warm disengagement. And what do I mean by that? What I mean is you don't have. I think that the temptation is to be just as cold, just as agitated, just as even at times mean as them. No, if you know what you're dealing with, you can disengage. And what I mean by disengage is don't tell them the good stuff that's happening in your life. Don't tell them your problems. Just make the conversation about them and you and pretend it's a really boring podcast and be doing something else while they're yam, yam, yammering on about themselves. And you can still be you. Right. But do not. There's. You can't expect Anything from this relationship, especially going into the holidays. Often you're only going to see this person a couple of times a year. And sometimes there are people you see all the time. The disengagement part helps because if you keep going into this thinking you're going to get. This is the time they'll be empathic. This is the time they're going to be aware of me. No, it's like it's just dropping a bucket in an empty well. You're not going to pull anything back. So the more we call it radical acceptance and radical awareness, the more you're aware of it, the less you engage with it. And that's really it. So you can just sort of politely nod, you can keep the conversation really superficial, and that's about it. But you don't want to get in the mud with them.

[Kelly Ripa]

Talk to us about gaslighting, because that is a phrase that I am constantly being accused of misusing, but I really don't think I misuse it. But I think some of the people that accuse me of misusing it are the people I'm accusing of gaslighting me. So they just don't like it.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah. So gaslighting is. It's a form of emotional manipulation and at some level, emotional abuse. So it actually isn't as. It's not as simple as we think. Some. If. Let's say you say to someone, let's say someone says, I loved that movie, and you say, oh, that movie sucked. And they say you're gaslighting them. No, you're not. You're having a difference of opinion. And I think a lot of people confuse a difference in opinion or even lying with gaslighting. And it's not. Gaslighting is when you doubt the memories, the perceptions, the experience of another person. I never said that. That didn't happen. You didn't remember that. Right. Okay. You couldn't be feeling that way. There's no way that you're hungry. Okay. So you're completely denying their experience. And then you tell them there's something wrong with them that never happened. Me thinks you might have a memory problem or what is wrong with you? You're so paranoid. You're so sensitive. So not only are you not remembering or seeing something right, there's something wrong with you. And that happens over and over and over again. It's called a double whammy. So you're. You're told that you're not perceiving it right, you're not remembering it right. And then you're Being told you're crazy. So that combo is gaslighting.

[Kelly Ripa]

I definitely have been using it correctly.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

There you go. There you go. Good, good, good that you checked in on that.

[Kelly Ripa]

I had a mild gaslight situation at work and I was like, I think you're gaslighting me right now.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

That's not being called out.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yes, I'm using it exactly correctly.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yes.

[Kelly Ripa]

Okay, we want to go to break and then we're going to take all of your narcissism questions when we return. Stick around. Today's holiday gift guide was made possible by l'. Oreal. Anyone who knows me knows that I take my gift giving very seriously. Jan, you know me. I think that some of the best gifts that I've given have been like a spa day. Especially if I have a friend that's just had a baby. Like, I offer to watch the baby and let them go to the spa to like get a facial or a scalp massage.

[Jan Chile]

That's so nice because I feel like nobody would do it for themselves.

[Kelly Ripa]

They don't do it do it for themselves. And it's so appreciative. And I get to take care of the baby, which is like so nice, so fun. I think simply the best gifts are the ones that just make you feel good. That's just, you know, whether you have put it on and it makes you feel good, whether it's something you look at and it makes you feel good. That's my opinion. And there is a well known sentiment that expresses the psychological boost, boost in confidence that comes from taking pride in your appearance. Say it with me, Jan. If you look good, you feel good. So true. It is true. So true.

[Jan Chile]

It is so true.

[Kelly Ripa]

Oh my gosh. When I, when I look terrible, I truly feel it can change your whole day. Yep. Huh? For me, looking good starts with taking care of myself and my skin routine, which has become so simplified thanks to l'. Oreal. I can't say it enough. People are like, do you really use that? Yes, I really use it. I love the tri peptide serum. I love the triple power moisturizer. I just feel like I look dewy and glowy and you know, the, the worst part of my day is when I have to put on studio makeup because I feel like it diminishes my glow a little bit. I really do. I just love the way my skin looks when it's natural with just the l' Oreal skin care products on on it. So this holiday season, my tip is to gift moments of self care. Face masks, cozy robes, aromatherapy skincare sets anything that brings comfort during the crazy holiday rush. Two gifts I'm giving this season are my favorite moisturizer and serum to help my friends simplify their skin routine too. Jan, you are getting this in your stocking, so act surprise when it comes.

[Jan Chile]

Okay, I'll act surprised.

[Kelly Ripa]

You're welcome.

[Jan Chile]

I'm excited.

[Kelly Ripa]

I'm obsessed with l' Oreal's Paris Revitalift Triple Power Moisturizer. It's a three in one anti aging moisturizer formulated with three dermatologist recommended ingredients, pro retinol, hyaluronic acid and vitamin C to visibly reverse up to 10 years of wrinkles, firm and brightened skin. It's available in both Fragrance free and SPF 30. Grab it today for under $25. I love fragrance free. Yeah, I really do. I don't like a. I don't like a fragrance. I love a fragrance free product. And l' Oreal's Revitalift Triple Power Tri Peptide Serum is my all time fave. It's three serums in one. It's formulated with peptides, vitamin C and hyaluronic acid. Again to reduce wrinkles. Firm skin brighten, leave you visibly younger looking. I'm telling you in just seven days I feel like I have a glow. I feel like I look like I'm using a highlighter, but I'm not. I swear. Grab it today. It's as low as 19.99. 19.99. That is an under 20 stocking stuff for Jan. You know what? You're gonna get that too. Thank you. You're welcome. Treat yourself or someone you love to radiant, confident looking skin this holiday season. With Loreal struggling to see up close, make it visible with viz. VIZ is a once daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours. The most common side effects that may be experienced while using VIZ include eye irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches and eye redness. Talk to an eye doctor to learn if VIZ is right for you. Learn [e-mail] hey Neighbor. This holiday season, Birch Lane is here to help you celebrate with friends and family. From guest ready dining tables to cozy sofas that fit the whole crew, their classic furniture and decor are crafted to last and with fast free delivery, you can be ready for holiday hosting in days, not weeks. So you can spend time on what matters most. It's classic style for joyful living. Shop Birch Lane, a Wayfair specialty [e-mail] Jan as the air turns crisp and the holidays draw near comfort becomes the best gift of all. Quince delivers layers that last, sweaters, outerwear and everyday essentials that feel luxurious, look timeless and make holiday dressing and gifting effortless. Quince has it all. $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear, denim that never goes out of style and down outerwear built to take on the season. I bought their cotton cropped cardigan in the camel color and I love everything about it, the feel, the fit and the color. It's my go to layering piece and perfect with everything from jeans to dresses. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last. From Quince, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.comoffcamera for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com off camera to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com offcamera. We are back with Dr. Ramani Durvasula, of course, the clinical psychologist, New York Times best selling author of it's not you. We are talking all things narcissism. Jan?

[Jan Chile]

Yeah, we have callers, but I just have a quick question. So going back to the concept of these friends who really, really, really love to be the best friend in the world when something bad's happening in your life. But then when like good things happen, it's kind of radio silence. So I definitely have experienced that and I've created enough distance, like used to be super, super close, created some distance where it's not in my day to day. But there's something, I can't cut it off completely. What's that about? Like what's, you can't, like I can't completely end the relationship. And I, I find that to be super strange.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

I don't know that it's strange. A couple of things here. They're showing up at the bad times, probably for the wrong reasons, right. Because they're not there for the good times. In some ways. Maybe they get some sense of superiority or some judge from being the rescuer kind of person. But what you're, what you're hinting at though, Jan, is this idea of something we call the trauma bond. Right. So when the narcissistic relationships are what we call trauma, bonded relationships. And so even when a person's like, this is not healthy, but I cannot seem to get out of it, it's often created by that alternation between good and bad. Like in many ways we're sort of, we know, it could be good again. We're worried. What happens if we leave? Am I going to lose all my friends? Maybe it's a problem with me. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. There's a lot of mental processes we sort of go through. And you're in an interesting kind of a conundrum because it actually usually goes the other way. The narcissistic person is always up for a party. So they're around when you're having a good time, but when you're having a bad time, they're nowhere to be found because they can't be both. To listen to your problems, you're in an interesting upside down there because they're there. Like I said, they're there for the bad times for all the wrong reasons. And then when something's going well for you, they're nowhere to be found. And so there's probably even a sense of, well, that's kind of nice that they're there for me. At least someone's listening to me when I'm going through a hard time. But that kind of. That back and forth and that tendency to blame ourselves keeps everyone who is in these relationships feeling stuck and not.

[Kelly Ripa]

Not.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Not being able to make a decision, not being able to make get out. And Jan, you may not be able. You may not have to get out. This idea that if you're in a relationship, friendship, anything with someone narcissistic means you gotta go. It actually isn't true. Some of these relationships can be navigated without you ending them or breaking up. You just need to realistically understand what the hell is going on.

[Kelly Ripa]

Do you think that your friend is secretly happy when you're going through something traumatic?

[Jan Chile]

I think they like to be, as you said, the savior. I think they like that role. I like that role. Should we go to calls?

[Kelly Ripa]

Yes, let's go to calls. Okay, we've got. First up is Kelsey in Arizona. Kelsey, hi. You're on with Dr. Ramany.

[Kelsey]

Hey, it's actually Kelsey. Like, I know you, Kelly. Like, I embarrass myself.

[Kelly Ripa]

Oh, Kelsey sunshine, it's me.

[Jan]

It's.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hi.

[Jan]

Hi.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hi.

[Kelsey]

Hi. I'm really glad you guys are having this conversation. This is, like, super applicable right now. So that's why I'm like, I have to call. Cause it's, like, too real.

[Kelly Ripa]

What's your question?

[Kelsey]

Okay, so my question is, like, when you end up in these situations, in these, like. Like relationships or et cetera, with a narcissist, when you're, like, someone who roots for people, like, kind of Painfully so. And then you kind of get, like, spun to, like, this place of, like, wait. I don't think they realize, like, I'm trying to, like, see the best and root for them, but I think, like, they think they can, like, f with.

[Jan]

Me a little bit.

[Kelsey]

And, like, my. My context with that a little bit is, like, my. Like, I was a foster mom to a little girl, and, like, that experience, I was, like, really inundated with, like, a narcissist experience. And then, like, she went back to her biological family, and I moved to New York to, like, start over, but I just moved back to Arizona two days ago because she needs me again. And now I'm back in this situation, and I guess that's why it's, like, heavy on my heart. Like, when you're in this cycle of, like, wanting to root for that person, but then they think they're, like, pulling one over on you. Like, how do you set that boundary to where you're kind but you're clear, so you don't just keep getting, like, steamrolled, you know?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

So, again, one thing I'm hearing in your question is, how do you have realistic expectations about somebody? Because that's what, you know, it's sort of, you know, it's the old Maya Angelou quote, right? When somebody shows you who they are, believe them. This person is sort of showing you kind of who they are and how they go through the world for whatever reasons they go through the world. I don't even know that they're necessarily narcissistic, but all I know is I'm hearing that you keep getting burned. So just like, you know, the first time we ever burn our hand on a pot on the stove, we often don't do it again. People are different than hot pots, right? We still go in because we believe in them or we believe we can work it through. But I think for you, it's. Again, it's just what I was saying before is you. It doesn't mean you have to walk away, but you've got to be realistic. You know, you're rooting for someone, but they're. You know, it does feel like they're taking advantage of you, is what I'm hearing. You may still believe in this, them. You may still root for them. You've got to ask yourself whether you can be in a relationship with them, with it and feeling like it's not balanced. It's not what we call. The word we use is reciprocal. It doesn't go back and forth. Only, you know, how much of that you can tolerate. And so I think it's the. The realistic expectations is you may not ever get it back from this person. They may not ever see what they're doing. And if you ever pointed this out to them, they may fully deny it. And that's when you feel gaslighted.

[Kelly Ripa]

And I think there's also the added. There's the added, you know, this responsibility of being there for a child that you obviously love very much. And I think that adds a whole other layer of complication because you want to be there for the child, but you don't want to be taken advantage of by the other parties. Is that right, Kels?

[Kelsey]

Correct. Thank you. And I think that's what's so hard. Like, being put back in this situation. No, no. I'm choosing it because I'm going to choose her every time. But I think because of that choice, now I'm in this relationship again with this. This person who has been explained to me by other people as a narcissist. And I'm trying so hard to find that balances, like finding love for them as, you know, like her parent, but then, like, protecting her, because it's like, I. I can't see her keep getting hurt. And so it's like, how do I find that balance? And in showing love and compassion, you know, because she is like her parent biologically, it's like, I think my kindness gets mistaken for weakness. And then it's like, no, no, no. I see clearly what's happening here. I know how to have that boundary to protect myself, because I'm. But then I need to protect this little girl, like Kelly said, for sure.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

You know, one thing I would say, Chelsea, don't get so lost in trying to find the love and compassion for this person who's been harmful for you, harmful to you. Center the child. That's what matters here. This child and centering them is everything. You don't have to be cold. You don't have to be mean. You don't have to be rude to that other person. But what you've got, you're putting a lot of energy in finding love and compassion for someone who's taking advantage of you. That is an unbalanced, unhealthy kind of a setup. Centering the child. Great. But I think you can, again, really disengage from the parent. You don't want to be rude. You don't want to model anything unhealthy for this child. But it's, again, I think you feel this pressure to interact with that other person in the child's life. And that's not necessary for you to maintain a relationship with this child. You can really disengage from them. Doesn't mean you stop talking to them. But don't knock yourself out trying to do all this love, compassion stuff because it's not only not gonna come back to you, it often is gonna get weaponized and used against you.

[Kelly Ripa]

Kelsey, thank you so much for the call. I'll be thinking about you. I hope everything works out for you. Thanks again for calling in in.

[Kelsey]

Thanks, guys.

[Kelly Ripa]

All right, let's go to Christine in Ohio. Hey, Christine, you're on with Dr. Ramani.

[Christine]

Hi, Dr. Ramany. Thank you so much, everybody for taking my call. Big fan. Kelly and Jan and Albert, longtime listener for SunColor.

[Kelsey]

Okay, so.

[Christine]

Dr. Ramani, you've been so helpful to my husband and I. So we have been co parenting with a hybrid malignant communal and grandiose narcissist for the past 17 years. Diagnosed, by the way. So my ex husband and I have been split for 14 years and it's been a lesson in survival. We shared two children. Luckily, his job takes him out of state and the country quite a bit. And during this time, the children are sort of out of sight, out of mind to him. But when he comes back, he comes back with a bang. And my current husband and I have become experts in dealing with him, which includes not taking any child support from him because money is one of his ways that he controls people. Now, the problem is now that we've mastered these boundaries with him and disengagement, mostly thanks to you, he's now focused all of his narcissistic rage on our teenage children. So he verbally abuses them, he calls them horrible names, he cusses at them, ruins important occasions like birthdays and holidays. He takes away money for his share of their or school tuition, things like this. And when they stand up to him, he lashes out. Then he love bombs them. And it's become this horrible cycle that I of course, understand because I was a part of it and fell for it too. So my question to you is this. At what point do I just sit my kids down and tell them that their father is not going to get better? They know something is horribly wrong and they are struggling emotionally. But do I simply tell them, look, your father is a narcissist and he's not going to get better with the understanding that he is incredibly litigious, he is incredibly punitive, and he is incredibly abusive?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah. First of all, thank Christine thank you for your question. I am so sorry for what you've gone through. This has been. I can't imagine what a long and difficult journey this has been not only for you, but your second husband, your new husband and your children. Not new. I'm sure you've been in this relationship for a while with him.

[Kelly Ripa]

Him.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

So, couple of things. My answer right off the jump here is no, you can't tell the kids you think their dad is narcissistic. And you might wonder why. Because wouldn't I then be giving them the keys to the kingdom? Because then they'll know what's going on. It can't come from you. Now, teenagers are clever, right? They can watch YouTube, they can find books, they can learn things. They can go on TikTok. They'll find what they need to find. But you're their other parent. Parent. And even kids feel loyalty, even to the most abusive parent. That's what we've always got to remember. Even when a parent is harmful, a child feels some level of loyalty to them, even if they're scared of them. And when the other parent was to say anything negative about that parent, they. It becomes a challenge to loyalty. And adolescence is still young enough for that, for that to sort of sit strangely with them. But here's the. And this is where I'm going to give you, like a really, really thin edge to balance on. You also can't gaslight your kid. So it's. I mean, you're never going to say to them, dad's your hero or dad loves you or dad really cares, because that's also a bad bill of goods. And on top of that, you have this ex, you know, ex partner who is, like you said, litigious and vindictive and all of that. The best thing you can do for them, Christine, number one is listen, listen, listen, listen. And don't feel like you can. You will have to solve. The biggest mistake we all make with adolescent adolescents is we try to solve stuff for them, right? They don't want this stuff solved. They want someone to listen to them, right? In many ways they can come to the solution. They just need a place to. A safe sounding board. So you can be that sounding board, number one. Okay. Number two, you can then empathize and say, I am so sorry. That is, that, is that. I mean, that's a terrible thing to hear. You're not saying he's a terrible guy or only a terrible guy would say something like that. You're saying that's a lot to hear. I I'm so sorry you're going through this. How can I support you? How can I be there for you? Okay. And then another thing I want you to keep in mind, Christine, is something I talk to people about all the time. I call it like, a drone's eye view. You want to make a bigger. Like, a bigger view on this. Like, people can suck. Like, I am so sorry you're going through this. People suck is different than your father sucks. And what you're kind of communicating there quietly, is, like, this behavior here. Not okay, but not that your dad is not okay. Now, you may be wondering, Christine, what about that fine day? My kids wander up to me and say, you know what? I was reading a book or watching a TikTok, and I think dad's narcissistic. It's going to be so tempting to grab that one and run with it. You're still going to have to hold some restraint. And you're not going to say, that's interesting. Tell me. Tell me why you think that. All right. And they're going to say, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And say, you know what if all this stuff is happening? This is a really, really difficult relationship for you, and it's hard because it's your dad. You do not want to get in the mud with your kids. Right. But you want to be that empathic, safe place to land. And what you don't want is for this to ever become. Yep, I know. I was married to it for all those years. He's a jerk. No. It's such an easy thing to fall into, but you don't want to do it. But you also don't want to. Gaslight. I'm kind of asking you to do you sort of like I'm asking you to juggle chainsaws while playing the piano. I know you can do it because you've kind of been doing it. And then I. You're gonna have to give it time. I mean, I don't know how close your kids are to 18. They have that option at 18. If they say, I don't want to see dad this Thanksgiving at 18, there's no more. There's no more law overseeing that. And you can say, then you don't have to, well, he's gonna get mad. And you can validate that. Yeah, he probably is. There's no quick fix on this one, and your kids are gonna suffer. And I. I hope they have access to good therapy, because having a severely narcissistic parent can really do a Number on a kid, especially as they go into adulthood.

[Kelly Ripa]

Wow, Christine, you got your hands full. Thank you so much for calling in. That was great advice, Dr. Ramani. Really great advice. Thank you so much, Christine. All of our best to you. Let's go to. Is this real? Let's go to Andy Cohen in New York City. Seriously? Hello. Hello. Hello. Hi. How are we doing? Are you home from Vegas?

[Andy Cohen]

I'm back from Vegas. I'm barely standing. I sound like. I sound like you, Kelly. I was gonna say I sound like Brenda Vaccaro, but actually.

[Kelly Ripa]

Andy, do you have questions? Yes.

[Andy Cohen]

What's your question about narcissists? I want to know how do you fight with a narcissist and win? Like, is there any winning in getting. Like, these narcissists, you know, when they come for you, it seems impossible. How do you get them? How do you. How do you win with. Against them? Is there any way.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

You know, Andy, it depends on what you're calling a win here, right? I mean, there's wins and there's wins.

[Andy Cohen]

So, like, it seems like they are the hero and the victim of every of their narrative at all times. And I understand that. Which means to me, if you go back at them, they're the victim. So, like, how do you win?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

And you know what you went. I'm going to tell you now, is that the. And I kind of hate teaching people the dark arts like this, but if you really do want to hurt them, you can't show any emotion. Because the thing that gets the greatest gratification for a narcissistic person is when we get frothed up, right? Because then they see they're getting that juice out of us and they stay calm and we look like we're out of our minds, Right? That is the narcissist power position. So to the degree you're not only disengaged, but even kind of look at them a little, if you can really communicate with your eyes and your face that you pity them, you've just won. Because there's nothing a narcissistic person hates more than the idea that somebody pities them or genuinely feels sorry for them.

[Kelly Ripa]

Right.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Thank you. And so if you can. And you know what, Andy Cohen? I am 100% confident that you can get that sneer down and really communicate that containing.

[Andy Cohen]

Okay, so it's that we feel. If anything, it's like, yeah, you know, I feel. Yeah, I feel sorry for them, but, yeah.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah.

[Kelly Ripa]

So by the way, Andy, by the way, you are winning. That's what you have to realize that's what's ratcheting up. You know, anybody that comes for you in that way.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Right.

[Jan]

Right.

[Andy Cohen]

Okay. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, gonna, I'm gonna ignore Donald Trump and I'm gonna feel sorry for all the other narcissists.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

No, you're gonna treat him with contempt. But, Andy, the other thing is a lot of people think that you, that the win with the narcissist is that you've con.

[Kelly Ripa]

You've.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

You've convinced them of something. I've gotta convince them. That's where people really get lost. That's why I'm saying this kind of indifferent kind of contempt with. Sprinkled with a little pity. That's the way.

[Kelsey]

Huh?

[Andy Cohen]

Okay, that's good.

[Kelly Ripa]

That. Do you think you can do that?

[Andy Cohen]

I think that I can do that. And I think I've been doing that to a few of the people that are in my mind. And, you know, just as the universe is dealing with this monster that's running our country, I'm just thinking also of the collective people out there and how to deal with him. But that's another issue. But this is very helpful.

[Kelly Ripa]

I feel like, I feel like we need to have a phone call after this.

[Andy Cohen]

Stay on the line. Well, that was a side conversation.

[Kelly Ripa]

Andy. I have to get to commercial breaks. Your channel is making me go to commercial break right now. I understand. Good.

[Andy Cohen]

We got to make the money, honey.

[Kelly Ripa]

Got to make the money.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Thanks for coming.

[Andy Cohen]

That's great advice. Thanks for what you're doing. Thank you.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Thanks, Andy. Bye. Bye now.

[Andy Cohen]

Okay.

[Kelly Ripa]

All right. Don't forget to call in more with Dr. Ramany. Stick around, Struggling to see up close. Make it visible with Viz. VIZ is a once daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours. The most common side effects that may be experienced while using VIZ include eye irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches, and eye redness. Talk to an eye doctor to learn if VIZ is right for you. You learn [e-mail] it's everything you love about Hallmark all in one place. Stream all new Hallmark original series and movies the next day. Enjoy the largest collection of Hallmark romcoms, mysteries, dramas, holiday movies and feel good stories. Get benefits like a $5 monthly coupon to spend at Gold Crown stores or Hallmark.com free cards, exclusive gifts, and much more. Visit HallmarkPlus.com and use code HPLUSPOD to get two months of Hallmark plus for just $2. How great is that? Small traditions that mark the changing of the season. Feel good. And that includes updating your makeup look. Thrive Cosmetics is your go to for completing any fall look. Every product is 100% vegan, cruelty free and made with clean skin loving ingredients that work with your skin, not a good against it. And my favorite part, for every product purchased, Thrive Cosmetics donates products and funds to help communities thrive. So every time we use our favorite Thrive cosmetics products, which in my case is their brilliant eye brightener. And Jan, I know you're obsessed with their liquid lash extensions.

[Lisa (Andy Cohen's producer)]

Obsessed.

[Kelly Ripa]

Which love it very extensions like they, they don't even look like real lashes.

[Jan Chile]

That's because of this stuff.

[Kelly Ripa]

Well guess what?

[Jan Chile]

The juice use.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah, it's good. We're doing more than enhancing our glow. We're helping others shine too. Complete your fall look. Go to thrivecosmetics.comoff camera for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C a u s e-m e t-I c s.com off camera. We are still navigating narcissism with Dr. Ramani. We are taking questions. Jan?

[Jan Chile]

Yeah. Is there any connection between like narcissism and then addiction? Is that.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Yeah. Oh yeah. The research shows actually quite a bit of overlap between the two. Now that's not to say all addicts are narcissistic, nor are all narcissistics narcissistic people living with addiction or using drugs and alcohol. But there's a lot of overlap. Right. And what we end up seeing is that people who have the presence of both addiction and narcissism, you know, they tend to feel much more entitled about it. They tend to make more excuses about it. And even when the person who's an addict and narcissistic gets sober, their sober is better than everybody else's. I'm the king of sobriety, you know, like, so they're even the most sober. The most sober, which I think, you know, it's supposed to be about humility and sobriety. So there's a greater risk of relapse when you see narcissism on in play. Because when something goes wrong in their lives, they often don't have the ability to cope with it. So there'd be more likelihood of sort of falling off the wagon, as it were. So but there is a lot of overlap. And the challenge is though, when the person's actively in the throes of addiction, it's almost hard to tell which is which. We can tell which is which when the person becomes sober and we still see all those narcissistic patterns.

[Kelly Ripa]

Is there any thought process. And again, I don't know that a person is trying to treat their narcissism with drugs or alcohol.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Absolutely, Kelly. Absolutely.

[Kelly Ripa]

You're aware that there's some sort of turmoil in there?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

No, it's more like, I don't want to feel this way.

[Kelly Ripa]

I see.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

And so it's sort of like. So in other words, narcissistic people will use stimulants, you know, like cocaine. And that means now you're a Superman man. Right. So there is that sense of like, now. No, nothing can touch me now. And then when there's sort of having to deal with strong emotions about anything, disappointment or a breakup or whatever, there might be a tendency to use alcohol or something like that just to sort of numb out. Or even in some cases, believe it or not, grandiose narcissistic people tend not to be socially anxious, but more sort of COVID vulnerable narcissists can be very socially anxious, and so they'll often use alcohol to sort of smooth that out so they can feel more socially skilled. So they'll use it for a lot of ways to deal with discomfort. Yeah.

[Kelly Ripa]

Wow. Okay, let's go to Lisa in Ohio. Lisa, hi. You're on with Dr. Ramani.

[Kelsey]

Hi, thanks for taking my call. I'm a little bit of a different victim.

[Jan]

I've heard from a couple different people and where the narcissist was in their life. I'm a grown woman of a mother. My mother is full blown. All my life, didn't even know what it was. A lot of my life. I. I hate to say it, but it was such a mind f. I don't know if I can swear.

[Kelly Ripa]

You can.

[Jan]

Classic. Yeah, Mind. And my therapist says I'm a testament to survival. I am healthy, successful, an amazing mother. The opposite of her. I. She didn't win. I'm not her tragedy. I never turn to drugs or alcohol, thank God. But ironically, I have zero self esteem. But you would never know it.

[Kelsey]

Based.

[Jan]

On I can't even take a compliment growing up with a narcissistic parent. But that being said, sadly, I know when narcissists can't control you, they want to control what everyone thinks of you. Well, unfortunately, she took my dad and has brainwashed him my entire life. Sadly, I don't have near the relationship with him I would have loved to have have. Makes my voice shake a little.

[Kelsey]

But I have been fighting this my.

[Jan]

Whole life and I can relate to everything you've said and I still daily figure out If I'm going to call her, how do I get off the phone if I have to? I get gaslit all the time. Provoke and blame, bait and switch. She, I mean, and I only reason I'm in touch with her and my father is because of my 10 year old son who I want to have a relationship with their grandparents. And my, my father is like best friends with my son and he's a wonderful grandfather. But I many, many times almost been to the point where I'm like, I can't do this anymore. And I read every book I could find and my therapist always say there aren't that many because narcissists think it's everyone else's fault. They don't take responsibility for anything they do. And this has been going on my whole life. I'm in my 40s and I just wondered if, just like some of the other callers, as far as dealing with a narcissist, because I, I have asked, is it a mental illness or is it a personality disorder? It's got to be one of the two.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

You know, I'm going to say this. First of all, Lisa, I am so sorry. And your, your story reminds me of what so many people who go through, what you've gone through is, you know, you had this very nice narcissistic mother. And you know, when you have a narcissistic mother, we often also see these patterns of victimhood and manipulation and withdrawing and withholding and abandoning or threatening abandonment. When I say abandonment, I don't mean literally she's getting up and leaving the house. But like I'm going to pull away from you and you're not grateful enough. And of course you can't take a compliment. If you took a compliment, your body feels like that's a dangerous thing to do. Like, it's almost as though your mom's going to jump out and say, oh, oh, no, no, no, you're wrong about that. So you're, you know, there's, there's sort of this part of you inside of you again in your body that is, it's not safe for Lisa to be seen in that way. But all of that said, is that, is it, is it a. I'm not a fan of calling narcissism a mental illness. I mean, most, again, we can't diagnose someone unless they actually spend quite a bit of time with a psychologist or psychiatrist or a mental health professional getting really, really carefully evaluated. And even then it may take a long time to figure that out. It's a Personality style. I think it's probably better to view it that way. And this personality style often can come out of a dark place. I don't know what your mom's childhood was like, but I'm willing to take a guess. It may not have been ideal. And so the narcissistic personality style can develop out, out of those kinds of adverse childhoods, which can often leave people who are the children, children, adult children of narcissistic parents also feeling a little guilty. However, the majority of kids who grow up with adversity don't become narcissistic. So I don't, I don't know that it's, it's fair to call it an illness or a disorder as much as it's a personality style where the person is, has this, this deep, deep insecurity. It's a deep sense of shame and this willingness to put themselves ahead of everybody else. And that's what they do. And they're not, they're, they're not able to be self aware about it. And if you point it out to them, they're going to rage at you. So there's no getting anywhere. But it would probably do you better to stop viewing it as an illness and more viewing it as this is who this person is. And personality doesn't change a lot over the course of a life. So this is kind of who she is. And it's done a lot of harm to you. It's hurt your relationship with your dad. You've been hurt in so many ways. Give yourself space for that hurt. But I don't want you to fall down the rabbit and hole of making excuses for her by treating this as though it's an illness. An illness means that it's manageable. Lisa, when I hear illness, I hear therapy, I hear treatment. I'm some. This, this is, it's pretty. Especially as deep in issues you're talking about. I mean, even if you could get your mom into therapy, which doesn't sound like she even thinks there's anything wrong, she doesn't think there's anything wrong. Where's the motivation? Most people who have mental illnesses have a subjective sense that something's not right.

[Kelly Ripa]

Do you have any advice for how Lisa can maybe forge ahead with her father in a deeper way?

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Deeper level, I would say. Lisa, you know, what's amazing is that, you know, first of all, I want you to take a minute, Lisa, and you want to reflect on how you've crafted this really strong adult life, you know, for your, for your son in, in the world in general that you're doing. Well, that's not easy. The hard thing thing is this idea of that you have this successful external piece, but still the struggling internal piece. I would say with your dad, it's keep showing up as you. Don't make your relationship with your dad trying to disprove what your mom said. Show up with your dad as you. Okay. And then he will see it from time to time. Listen, he's. He's interacting with your son and it's very likely he sees some of you there. Your father might very well be trauma bonded to your mother. I don't know because I don't know about their relationship. So it's even hard for him to see it clearly. He's been in it so long that he can't almost can't see it anymore. It's it this that your relationship with your father matters to you, both for your son and for yourself. So stay in it, but don't make it about disproving what she said. Show up as your wonderful Lisa self. That would probably be the best way. But understand there's a lot of grief and here a lot was taken away from you. And a lot of what was taken away from you is your sense of being able to believe in yourself. And that's where therapy makes a big difference. You are in therapy. So you're good. So you're doing Lisa. You're doing great. And I really thank you for coming on.

[Kelly Ripa]

Thank you, Lisa and Dr. Ramani, thank you so much for joining us. I feel like we need a second episode or like, come back once a month. Don't forget to pick up Dr. Ramani's book, it's not yout. You can find find out about a membership to Dr. Ramany's network at Dr. Ramany.com and I can't wait to talk to y' all off camera next week.

[Jan Chile]

Good luck on Thanksgiving.

[Kelly Ripa]

Yeah, good luck on Thanksgiving, everybody. Roll up your sleeves. Fingers crossed. Thanks, Dr. Ramani.

[Dr. Ramani Durvasula]

Thanks so much. Bye.

[Kelly Ripa]

Now let's talk Off Camera with Kelly Ripa is a production of Malojo Productions. From Malojo, our team is Kelly Ripa, Mark Consuelos, Albert Bianchini, Jan Chile, Seth Gronquist, Roz Therian, Devin Schneider, Michael Halperin, Julia Desch, and Team Radio Andy. Lisa Mantineo, Scott Marlowe, Jake Getz.

[Lisa Mantineo]

If you're an adult struggling with obesity, if you've struggled for years and years, you are not alone. But zeppbound Tirzepatide is changing. What's possible when it comes to weight loss loss along with diet and exercise. Proven to help lose weight and keep it off. Zepbound is a prescription medicine for adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight related medical problems. Zepbound should be used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity. Zepbound injection is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15 milligrams per 0.5 milliliters in single dose pen or single dose vial. Don't use with other Tirzepatil containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound can be used in children. Don't take Zepbound if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, depression or suicidal thought spots before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills. Taking zeppan with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Discover the weight loss you could be bound for. Ask your healthcare provider about Zepbound or call 1-800-545-5979. Explore Savings Options regardless of insurance status at Saving Save on zepbound.com Terms and conditions apply. JBL Wireless Earbuds are packed with innovation. Touchscreen, smart charging case for one touch control, instant EQ customization, true adaptive noise cancellation and a one of a kind audio transmitter to plug and play from almost any source plus spatial 360 sound on anything. The new JVL Wireless Earbuds.