Dr. Deb Muth 0:03
Today’s guest is someone I’m honored to call both a friend and a mentor, and one of the most trusted voices in medicine for patients with complex chronic illness. Dr. Neal Nathan is a board certified family physician who has spent decades caring for patients who don’t fit neatly into diagnostic boxes. Patients with mold related illnesses, Lyme disease, mast cell activation, and profound nervous system dysregulation. These are the patients who are often told their labs are normal and their symptoms are anxiety or that nothing more can be done. Instead of dismissing them, Dr. Nathan listened and he asked better questions. His work, including his landmark book, Toxic, has helped thousands of people finally feel seen, believed, and understood, and more importantly, has given them a path forward when medicine failed them. This conversation is for anyone who reacts to supplements or medications, for anyone who has gotten worse instead of better with treatment, and for anyone who knows their body that something deeper is going on, even if they’ve been told otherwise. Dr. Nathan, I’m deeply grateful for your mentorship, your integrity, and the way you continue to advocate for the most vulnerable patients. I’m so glad to have you here today. And before we begin, grab a cup of coffee, tea, or whatever grounds you, because this is the conversation you’ll want to settle into. Now, before we go onto this conversation, we need to hear from our sponsors. So give us just a quick moment and then Dr. Nathan and I are going to dive in to his story and how this all started for him and leave you with some nuggets of wisdom that you can help yourself with. Ladies, it’s time to reignite your vitality. Primal Queen supplements are clean, powerful formulas made for women like you who want balance, strength, and energy that lasts. Get 25% off@primalqueen.com Serenity Health that’s PrimalQueen.com Serenity Health because every queen deserves to feel in her prime the right places and then we can get started. All right? So, Dr. Nathan, like I said, I’m so excited to have you here today. Tell us a little bit about how did you start your career? Because you didn’t intend to work with the most complex and sensitive patients, I’m sure when you started out. But what did you notice early on that made you realize medicine was missing something?

Neil Nathan MD3:03
You know, Deb, actually, I did start out wanting to work with the most complicated cases. My delusional fantasy when I started was I wanted to help every single person who walked into my office. And so when I left medical school, I realized pretty quickly that the tools that I learned there were not adequate to do That I needed to learn more. So I started on a passionate journey of discovery, if you will, in which I started studying with anyone who had anything interesting about healing to talk about. And I want to emphasize that I was interested in healing, not in what I’ll call medical technology. So medical school taught me to be a good medical technologist, but it didn’t teach me about healing. I graduated a long time ago. I graduated from Medical School in 1971. And the word holistic wasn’t even a word back in those days, but that’s what I was looking for over many, many years. I studied osteopathic manipulation, homeopathy, therapeutic touch, emotional release techniques, hypnosis. If it’s weird, I probably have studied it at some point. I wasted some weekends studying things that I don’t think were particularly valuable. And I’ve had some remarkable experiences with true healers that taught me how to expand my understanding of what healing really meant. So early on, when I first started practice, I would invite my colleagues to send me their most complicated patients because that was my learning. That makes me weird. I know that. I love some problem solving. You know, I’m the kind of person who I get up in the morning and I do all of the New York Times kinds of puzzles. That’s. That’s my brain wake up call. So actually I did invite my colleagues to send me their complicated patients, and they did. So, I mean, they were thrilled to have me in the community because these were people they didn’t know what to do with. And I was happy as a clam with all these complicated things that I had no idea what to do with. But it pushed me to keep learning more, to keep searching for this person’s answer. And this person’s answer, that constant question is, what am I missing? What is it that I don’t know or understand? What questions am I not asking this person that would help me to figure it out? So sorry for the long winded digression.

Dr. Deb Muth 6:14
No, I’m glad you shared that. I’m very similar to you. I didn’t seek out working with the most complex, but as I started that, I was always very curious as well. So I was the same as you. Every weekend I would learn something and hypnosis and naturopathic medicine, homeopathy, and all these quote unquote weird things, right? And there’s always a pearl that you learn from something. You never not learn anything, but some of it, you kind of take or leave or integrate or not. And, and I think it, it makes you a better Practitioner, because you have all these tools in your toolbox for helping people that nobody else has been able to help. And. And it’s just kind of fun learning. I mean, I’m kind of a geek that way too. I like to learn all those things.

Neil Nathan MD7:00
Learning is my passion. One of my greatest joys in life is going to a medical meeting and getting a pearl. Literally. I’m not one of these people at medical meetings that have a computer in front of me listening. And I have a pad of paper and I’m writing down ideas next to people that I’m working with. So that, oh, let’s bring this up for these people. Let’s bring this up for these people. So it’s like, oh, great. Can’t get right back to the office on Monday so I can start, have some new ideas about what I’m missing.

Dr. Deb Muth 7:38
Yeah, I do the same thing. I have my pad of paper and I do the same thing. And as I hear something, I’m thinking about a person that’s in my office that I haven’t been able to help, or we’ve been stuck on something, and I’m like, oh, there’s a new thing we can try. And it’s so exciting. I love that. Let me ask you this. Was there a time when you finally thought, like, if I don’t listen to these patients differently, they might not ever get better?

Neil Nathan MD8:04
That’s a very complicated question. The people that I was treating that weren’t getting better were the ones that got my greatest attention. And one of the questions that constantly troubled me still does is, is this person not getting better because of some feature of themselves, or is it because of something that I don’t know? So I’ve wrestled with that for a very long time. My answer to it now is, For a long time, I’ve been able to see what I will call the light in a person. Call it a healing spark and energy. It isn’t truly light. There’s just something about that person when I work with them where I know this person will get well if I stick with them long enough. And then when I don’t get that, I don’t think I’ve helped any of those people over the years. Yeah, so it was a very long process of really not helping people for five years daily. And I would. I would ask those patients, I would say, you know, I haven’t helped you. We’ve been doing this for a very long time. Why are you still here? And they would say, because you care. And I would. Back when I was Younger, that was enough for me to go. That’s true. Okay, I’ll keep working at it. But as I’ve gotten older, caring isn’t enough. It’s. I’m not sure I’m the right person for you. And so as I’ve gotten older, when I don’t see that spark, when I don’t get that sense of someone, I’m more inclined early on in the relationship to tell them I’m not the right person for you. Yeah, you know, see if you can find someone else who can understand what you’re going through and help you. Because I, I’m not it.

Dr. Deb Muth 10:16
Yeah, you, you kind of know that you can help them or not. Yeah.

Neil Nathan MD10:21
I don’t know how to define that sense, but it’s very clear to me. I call it like seeing the inner light of another being. If it’s not there, and maybe it’s not there for me to see as opposed to someone else can see it.

Dr. Deb Muth 10:41
That’s interesting. So you’re known for working with patients who are highly reactive. They don’t tolerate supplements, a lot of times medications, or even some of your most gentlest protocols. Why are these patients so often misunderstood?

Neil Nathan MD 10:59
Because they appear to their family and to many other physicians to be so sensitive that the thought process of families and other physicians is often. Nobody’s that sensitive. This has got to be in your head. And that is what is conveyed to those patients. And they’re told it’s gotta be in your head. Go see a psychiatrist or a therapist. But I can’t help you. And unfortunately, we have learned in the last 20 years a great deal about, is making our patients so sensitive. It is a true reaction of their nervous system and immune system, and it is in response to various medical conditions they have. So again, as we’ve been talking about, those were the people that got sent to me for many years. And I...