Lex Fridman Podcast #483 – Julia Shaw: Criminal Psychology of Murder, Serial Killers, Memory & Sex
Date: October 14, 2025
Host: Lex Fridman
Guest: Dr. Julia Shaw, Criminal Psychologist, Author of "Evil," "Memory Illusion," "Bi," and "Green Crime"
Brief Overview
In this episode, Lex Fridman interviews Dr. Julia Shaw, a renowned criminal psychologist, about the complexities of human nature concerning crime, the psychology of evil, sexuality, and memory. The discussion traverses the continuum of dark personality traits, the myth of 'evil,' empathy toward those who commit atrocities, the psychology of serial killers, the fragility of memory, sexuality and identity, and the environmental crimes threatening our planet. Julia provides insights from her research and personal journey, connecting profound psychological theories to real-world challenges. The tone is inquisitive, empathetic, and at times humorous and raw.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. The Continuum of Evil and the Dark Tetrad
[08:43–13:02]
- Evil as a Continuum:
Julia reframes "evil" as a spectrum of human traits, not a binary label.
"You can be low on each of those traits or you can be high on each of those traits... it's a way of classifying people into those who might be more likely to engage in risky behaviors." – Julia [09:51] - Dark Tetrad: Psychopathy, Narcissism, Machiavellianism, Sadism. Everyone falls somewhere on these scales.
- Dehumanization & War:
Lex and Julia discuss how both sides in war dehumanize opponents, which is crucial to justify atrocities.
"To dehumanize the other in order to be able to murder them at scale... both sides think that it's the battle of good versus evil." – Lex [13:02]
2. Empathy, Evil, and Humanization
[14:15–18:41]
- Evil Empathy:
Julia advocates for empathy toward those we label as evil, arguing this helps prevent future violence by understanding root causes.
“I think we need to... empathize with people we call evil. Because if we're saying that this is the worst kind of act... what we actually want is... to stop that behavior from happening.” – Julia [15:24] - Interviewing "Evil" People:
It's important to approach them with curiosity rather than revulsion, to unlock meaningful understanding.
3. Perception, Creepiness, and Lie Detection
[19:03–23:17]
- Judging Trustworthiness:
Our intuition about who appears “creepy” or “trustworthy” is often unreliable. - Lie Detection Fallibility:
Even experts are often no better than chance at detecting lies:
"People... think they are [good at detecting lies]. And so again, you get into this path where you're going to miss people who are actually lying to you." – Julia [22:25]
4. Serial Killers, Loneliness, and Motivations
[32:10–35:47]
- Loneliness & Reality Monitoring:
Serial killers often lack social ties, which impairs their ability to tether thoughts to reality. “They have this loneliness, which I think also not only contributes to them committing the crimes... but also allows them to get away with things..." – Julia [32:21] - Dark Tetrad as Catalyst:
Serial killers’ dark traits combine with untethered realities.
5. Universal Human Capacity for Darkness
[35:54–39:13]
- All Capable of ‘Evil’:
Most humans are theoretically capable of atrocities, especially under social or political pressures. - Murder Fantasies & Adaptation:
Research shows high prevalence of violent fantasies; rehearsing them mentally can be protective, prompting reflection instead of action.
6. Heroic Imagination, Bystander Effect, and Crime Prevention
[39:57–43:45]
- Heroic Imagination:
We should actively imagine standing up against wrongdoing, countering bystander inertia. - Murder Recidivism:
"Recidivism for homicide is only 1 to 3%. So that raises the question, why do people commit murder?" – Lex [43:45] - Murder as Impulse, Not Calculation:
Most murders are spontaneous escalations, not meticulous plots.
7. Systemic Crime: Restorative Justice and Society’s Misaligned Focus
[47:51–49:43]
- Restorative Justice Models:
"Forgiveness is up to the victims' families... what we want is for the person to apologize, to explain how it happened." – Julia [48:06] - Misallocation of Punishments:
Long sentences for murder may not increase safety; nonviolent repeat offenders (fraud, abuse) are statistically more dangerous.
8. Incels, Internet Subcultures & the Danger of Entitlement
[49:43–51:48]
- Entitlement and Group Dynamics:
Online echo chambers amplify dangerous beliefs and breed rationalization for antisocial acts. - Role of Internet:
“The Internet gives you a mechanism to be your worst self and... can reinforce that worst self.” – Lex [51:35]
9. Intimate Relationships: Jealousy, Monogamy, and Polyamory
[56:39–62:30]
- Jealousy as Red Flag:
Julia asserts jealousy signals insecurity or control, and is predictive of future violence. - Polyamory and Monogamy:
There is no one-size-fits-all for relationships; honesty and open communication are essential.
10. Bisexuality, Sexuality as Spectrum, and Social Bias
[63:12–73:05]
- Fluidity and Identity:
Sexual attraction/identity is not binary; the Kinsey Scale and Klein Grid illustrate continua. - Misconceptions:
Bisexuality is often perceived as a phase; societal and intra-community stigmas persist. - Visibility and Legal Risks:
Visibility is key for destigmatization but carries risks in hostile environments. "I'm always terrified that bisexual people are going to be hypersexualized, dehumanized again..." – Julia [89:55]
11. Memory as a Faulty Wikipedia
[104:44–113:52]
- Memory as Crowdsourced & Malleable:
Every time we recall an event, it’s subject to distortion by social influence & leading questions. "False memories are common... basically every autobiographical memory you have is false. The question isn't whether it's false; the question is how false." – Julia [105:35] - Dr. Shaw’s False Memory Experiments:
She implanted false memories of crime in 70% of subjects using suggestive questioning techniques, demonstrating the fragility of memory (and the risks for police interrogation and AI bots). "It's just to show it's possible." – Julia [117:49]
12. Memory, AI, and the New Age of Confabulation
[101:41–103:18; 119:18–120:02]
- AIs as False Memory Machines:
AI systems mimic human confabulation; careless interactions can reinforce false narratives. "What we've created with GenAI is the ultimate false memory machine." – Julia [101:51] - Defending Against Manipulation:
Take contemporaneous notes. Be aware of susceptibility to influence, especially from authority or technology.
13. Therapeutic Memory Editing and Everyday Happiness
[137:16–138:14]
- Cognitive Restructuring:
We can actively reshape the emotional tint of our memories for greater well-being. "That is an important part of resilience that we ideally need to celebrate and teach." – Julia [138:01]
14. Environmental Crime and Collective Responsibility
[144:56–159:01]
- Corporate & Organized Crime:
Through case studies (e.g., Volkswagen Dieselgate), Julia explains crimes against the Earth through classic psychological forces: conformity, rationalization, diffusion of responsibility.
“Who is the person who is insuring this? ... And I think that's where you get some clarity.” – Julia [149:55] - Hope Through Action:
Dedicated environmental investigators, engineers, and activists give Julia hope, showcasing the power of collective, principled action.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Evil:
"Evil is the end of a conversation. It's when we call somebody evil, we say, this person is so different from me that I don't even need to bother trying to understand why they are capable of doing terrible things." – Julia [11:57] -
On Memory:
“Our minds are made to creatively recombine information to solve problems in the present... False memories are a result of that ability.” – Julia [112:32] -
On Empathy:
"The only way we're going to [reduce violence] is if we understand what led that person to come to that situation and to engage in that behavior." – Julia [15:40] -
On Relationships & Jealousy:
“Jealousy is basically always a red flag...” – Julia [56:59] -
On Polyamory & Monogamy:
“Monogamy is setting us up to fail... The idea that there's this one size fits all for relationships is really harmful.” – Julia [58:20] -
On Environmental Crime:
“If someone was coming into your house and just setting things on fire and then walking out unpunished, you'd be really upset... That's what people are doing on a planetary scale.” – Julia [145:51]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 08:43 – Evil as a continuum, introduction to the Dark Tetrad
- 11:46 – Nature vs. nurture in the making of “evil” individuals
- 14:42 – The necessity of “evil empathy”
- 16:51 – Best practices for interviewing people labeled as evil
- 19:03 – The unreliability of intuitive trustworthiness and “creepiness”
- 23:17 – Psychopathy and lying
- 25:17 – Does gazing into the “abyss” of evil corrupt us?
- 29:38 – Most disturbing crime Julia has covered: serial killer Robert Pickton
- 35:54 – Universal capacity for murder and evil
- 39:57 – Heroic imagination, bystander effect, and real-world heroism
- 44:21 – Why people actually commit murder; myths about motivation
- 49:43 – The psychology of incels and online echo chambers
- 56:59 – Jealousy as a warning sign in relationships
- 63:12 – The reality and science of bisexuality
- 105:18 – The prevalence and mechanisms of false memory
- 112:30 – The methodology of implanting false memories
- 119:18 – Implications for propaganda and AI in spreading false memories
- 137:16 – Therapy, positive reinterpretation, and cognitive restructuring
- 144:56 – The psychology of environmental crime and collective action
- 159:03 – Limits of empathy: Julia’s 'red line' with sexual slavery
Conclusion: Hope and Human Progress
Despite the darkness she studies, Julia is hopeful. She credits this to people who care, to advances in empathy and science, and to the potential for technology to be harnessed for prevention and remediation rather than manipulation. She emphasizes the need for ongoing, deep connection between social science and technology to ensure wisdom guides innovation.
Final words:
"I think the fact that there are people who study the darkness gives me hope..." – Julia [160:35]
“Let's protect [the Earth]. It's the only one we got.” – Lex [167:39]
For links to Julia’s books, Spot (her memory tool), and more, see the podcast description.