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LGBTQ Outdoors Podcast
42: Queer Words, Wild Places: Exploring poetry, identity, and belonging in the outdoors
01:10:08
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- [00:01]
Patrick Ramsey
I don't need someone to ride off into the sunset. Like, I just need a moment that ends well, that. That is worth remembering and sharing. And this is what I would consider, like, the type of happy ending that I want to, like, offer the world of queer people. Just a moment of, like, rest and wonder and a little bit of sexiness. That's part of our existence, too.
- [00:33]
Justin Yoder
Every trail has a story, and when LGBTQ people gather in the outdoors, those stories become community, adventure, and belonging. I'm Justin Yoder, and this is the LGBTQ Outdoors Podcast. Welcome back to the LGBTQ Outdoors Podcast, where we explore identity, belonging, and the natural world. I'm Justin Yoder, one of the hosts, and I've got. My husband is my co host, Patrick Thompson.
- [00:59]
Patrick Thompson
Hey, everybody.
- [01:01]
Justin Yoder
And we have. We have a really great episode that I'm excited about tonight. A little bit different. Our guest kind of brings together poetry, place of belonging, queerness, and the American West. And so really excited about that. But before we dive into that with our guests, so talk about a little bit of LGBTQ outdoors news.
- [01:25]
Patrick Thompson
Yeah. So if you're a longtime listener, you're going to be tired of us talking about it, but we're going to Talk for, like, 10 seconds about LGBTQ outdoor fest. This is September 10th through the 13th. It's going to be amazing. Go. It's in Colorado. Go to the website LGBTQ outdoorfest.com Nice and short.
- [01:47]
Justin Yoder
What's that?
- [01:48]
Patrick Thompson
Nice and nice and short. Not taking up the whole episode this time.
- [01:53]
Justin Yoder
We also have not us doing it, but we're part of the hiking expo that's going to be also in Denver, Colorado, on May 15th and the 16th. Going to be a lot of great vendors there, a lot of education going on. I'm going to be speaking there. We're going to have a booth. So if you come out for it, be sure to stop by our booth and say hi, because we would love to see you. I don't have that website handy, but I believe it's just the HikingExpo.com, but you can Google it for sure and find it. Love to connect with more people out there.
- [02:25]
Patrick Thompson
Yeah. And huge favor to ask to everybody listening right now. On Spotify, we have exactly 25 reviews, and on Apple Podcasts, we have 23. Will you please leave us a review on one or both of the platforms? It really, really helps us out. It doesn't cost anything and it'll help other people find us.
- [02:48]
Patrick Ramsey
So.
- [02:48]
Patrick Thompson
So that you can share your love for the outdoors as well.
- [02:53]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, we would love that everybody's always asking how they can help out and that's just a free way and very simple way that people can get involved and help boost us so more people can find out about us. And lastly, I just want to mention our newsletter real quick. If you really want to know what's going on with our organization and stay connected, our newsletter is the best way to do that. So just jump over to LGBTQoutdoors.com right there on the homepage. Very easy and we would love to connect with you. Now let's get on with the show and introduce our guest.
- [03:28]
Patrick Thompson
Patrick Ramsey is a queer Utah based poet who was raised in and alongside the wetlands of the Great Salt Lake. He earned his BA in English in Creative Writing at Weber State University where he served as Editor in Chief of the literary journal Metaphor. He is a former owner of the bookstore Happy Magpie Book and Quill and runs a community writing workshop called Write Club. His work has appeared in West Trade Review, NPR and gwarlingo, and most recently in Love is for all of Us and Ecobloom Spaces. You can find out more of Patrick's work in his debut poetry chapbook, Butterflies Are Rare in Beehives or on Instagram ritepatrick W R I T E Patrick so yeah, Patrick, welcome. So glad that you're here.
- [04:20]
Patrick Ramsey
Thanks guys. Good to be here. Happy to see you and hear you.
- [04:24]
Justin Yoder
Absolutely. I'm excited for our community to get to know you. I have a feeling there's some that already do, if not a good chunk of them. But I felt very connected the first time I heard some of your poems. And I think I've mentioned this to you before. I have always been the biggest person into poetry, but something about the way that you do it with connecting it to the outdoors just struck me in a powerful way. And I want more people to know about you before and we're going to share some of those, you're going to share some of those poems. But before we do, can you tell us a little bit more about you, who you are, where you grew up so people can get connected and get a feel for you?
- [05:10]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah. So I'm Patrick Ramsey. Thank you for having me. And I grew up here in Utah. I grew up in a family of explorers and folks who were always interested in getting outside. My mom would write throughout my childhood. She wrote kids stories and she was a journalist and my dad was a pilot. So grew up in a military Mormon family. So there was always an underline of some religion and conservative upbringing, but also a lot of exploring nature, getting outside, engaging with the incredible Utah landscape, putting our feet in the disgusting salt water of the Great Salt Lake. Actually, it's not disgusting, but sometimes dis throughout the year. It is pretty buggy, but no, we love the Great Salt Lake. I have a really strong relationship with the Great Salt Lake. Pretty actively involved in the advocacy to save the Great Salt Lake. And I tend to write a lot about that. I also write a lot about queerness in nature and the identity of queer folks in the west and what it feels like to belong or to not feel like you belong on rivers, on trails and campgrounds. And so, yeah, I agree. I think that your people are my people too.
- [06:38]
Justin Yoder
Love that.
- [06:40]
Patrick Thompson
Quick question and give you a little chance to talk about it. You said that you're very passionate about wanting to save the Great Salt Lake. Give us, give us the background. What does it need saving from? Probably us, I'm guessing.
- [06:55]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah, that's a good guess and a good way to sum it up. So the Great Salt Lake is shrinking and it's becoming an ecological disaster. A lot of the water that feeds into the Great Salt Lake through rivers is being siphoned off for ranching and development. And we are just getting shorter winters, not as much snowfall, so there's not as much snowpack. So there's not as much snow melt. So we just seeing the lake kind of dry up. And what that means is that Salt Lake City and northern Utah are turning into a toxic dust bowl. And it'll have effects on everyone's health, on the food that we grow. And yeah, potentially just we might see the Great Salt Lake disappear. And a lot of folks are doing a. A lot of really important and engaged work and very artistic work to show up in a myriad of ways to raise awareness for the great Great Salt Lake. And lately there's been interest in the federal, federal government supporting the efforts to save the Great Salt Lake. With like a billion dollars, I think so TBD holding out on that. We'll see what happens. But generally, just the west is always a story of scarcity with water. And each state is always in its own version and flavor of a drought. And ours is just different because it's more salty. And the implications of what is sitting on the lake bed in the Great Salt Lake just mean a little bit different things here in Utah because it's full of heavy metals and from over a century of just us dumping into the lake. And the idea that that might become our atmosphere over here is. Is pretty concerning.
- [08:48]
Patrick Thompson
Sounds like some dire consequences if this isn't at least halted, if not healed totally.
- [08:59]
Patrick Ramsey
And there's ecological consequences to wildlife as well. We have 10 million migratory birds that stop in Utah every year on their migration either north or south, to stop and eat the brine shrimp and. And the brine flies that are in the lake or around it. And so it really is a very special place for the environment and for birds that don't stay in Utah but pass through. And, yeah, the implications would be felt far beyond Utah.
- [09:35]
Patrick Thompson
And it's interesting that you brought up the artist community around this cause, because for me, anyway, sometimes I'll see a photo or hear a song or even just some sort of artistic creation that translates what I'm feeling into something a little bit more or less abstract. It challenges thought where your normal, everyday language is going to fall flat. I feel like it's effective, at least to a degree, and very, very powerful, which is why we're here to talk about your poetry and your creativity.
- [10:22]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah. One of my favorite poets, Joy Sullivan, she says poetry names the ache. It's. It's intended to name the ache. And I think that's why oftentimes, when there's something incredible or horrific happening in the world, you'll see people in your network sharing poems or talking about poems who might otherwise not ever really engage with poetry. But there are moments that feel like art and poetry can distill what the human feeling is so specifically and succinctly that we don't actually have to like, and we can just sort of unite around it. And I think that's the. The wonderful thing that art does in advocacy, and it allows us to connect without having to do all of the legwork. You know, when someone creates something beautiful that. That names the ache, we can all
- [11:27]
Patrick Thompson
just gather around it, and it's the connection. Just Kind of thinking back to 2020 and the depths of the pandemic, horrible time for humanity. But for me, I feel like, to a degree, we saw the best in humanity. We saw people out on their balconies, rocking out on guitars, lots of writing, lots of painting, lots of creation in the midst of all this despair. And it named the ache. And I think it helped a lot of us, you know, get through that time.
- [12:04]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah. Like, how many people in your life do you know who turn toward creativity to just feel joy or literally survive during that time? And it's. It's been. I think it was a special and very weird opportunity for people to sit down and be like, who am I? And what sort of footprint am I leaving? And I think a lot of people decided they wanted to create things, which,
- [12:34]
Patrick Thompson
I mean, I think that's a great thing to be able to do. You've obviously been doing that longer. Like, when did you start feeling a connection with writing?
- [12:46]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah, so I wrote a story in like, third or fourth grade about Yellowstone. And I. It was about this indigenous chief who. His son is shot by these guys who are colonizers. And he gets so angry that he turns the wetlands into geysers and it turns the, like, battle field that they're in basically into the Yellowstone geysers and like, destroys the people who are trying to invade his land. And I just remember my. My teacher, during parent teacher conference, like, talking to my mom and being like, this is like a real story. And I was like, yeah, that's like what I was supposed to tell. It was like a real story. But she just remarked on that It. It was like that she liked it. And for me, it. It told me that I could tell stories and that I could write things. And like, writing something isn't just an assignment, but that it can move people. And I don't think I really internalized it in that way when I was in fourth grade, but it was the first time that I felt happy that I wrote something. And then I hit high school, and I think right after I graduated high school, I found some spoken word poetry from Sarah K. That really inspired me to see what it would feel like to take the dialogue that's happening inside me and put it outside and let other people see it. And so I would say around 19 is when I started writing poems pretty actively. I was writing for my college's newspaper at the time, and they kept giving me edits that I was trying to, like, be too creative. And I was like, maybe this is like, not for me. Maybe I'm not meant to be a professional writer. But it just turned out that I wasn't meant to be writing articles about local businesses in my city. And I. What I really wanted to do was write poems. And. And then I did a Summer in Panama. I was studying wildlife biology and I thought I was going to be a wildlife scientist. And I went to go study frogs and hike around the jungle for three months. And I just ended up writing poetry the whole summer. And I came back with a journal full of poems and just like a knowing that this is actually what I want to do, and I can write about scientific subjects for the rest of my life, but in terms of how I want to devote my time and how I want to Spend my attention. It was clear that poetry was where my mind and heart reverted to. And like, for me, when a poem arrives, I, like, feel like I can't deny it. It just shows up and I'm like, well, I'm gonna sit down and write for two hours and try to figure this out and grapple with whatever this idea is. So it became pretty clear, I guess, when I was really figuring out what I wanted to do with my life, that this was probably the most purposeful life that I could make for myself, was just writing.
- [16:15]
Patrick Thompson
Wow.
- [16:18]
Justin Yoder
Did you. In combining your poetry with your love for the outdoors and your queerness, was there ever a time when you felt like you were safer in nature than you were in human spaces?
- [16:33]
Patrick Ramsey
Oh, my God, yes. I've always felt more myself in nature than I have inside of buildings, inside of schools, inside of cities. I have always included landscape in everything that I write because it just feels so inherent to the creature that I am. Like, I can't look at a man's back and not think of foothills or dunes or, like, kiss someone and not think of a river. And I grew up in a very Mormon town that was experiencing its puberty from town, farm town to city. And it was a tough place to be silently gay. And I was holding a lot of that in. But I sought refuge on Antelope island, which is the largest island in the Great Salt Lake. And essentially, you have to drive across a seven mile causeway that's like a road that goes through the Great Salt Lake, and it takes you out to a desert that is largely undeveloped except for one house that the ranger lives in and then a visitor center. And it's full of bison, pronghorn, the laughter of coyotes, burrowing owls, like, all these desert animals. And, yeah, you can just go be alone on a trail. And during high school, I think that's where I felt most. The most sanctuary. For sure.
- [18:24]
Justin Yoder
I can relate to that in. In so many ways, just because, like, I grew up in the country in Missouri, and very different experience from a lot of queer people growing up in urban environments or big cities. And it took me a long time to figure out who I was, even. Even though I knew I was queer from a very, very young age,
- [18:54]
Patrick Ramsey
but
- [18:54]
Justin Yoder
I could never see myself, even though I do now, living in a big city. I always felt like when I was by myself in nature, I was more connected, more authentically myself for who I was at that stage in my life. We see a lot of people in our community now, especially with LGBTQ outdoors, who grew up in the cities and have a hard time even thinking about going outdoors. Like, it's outdoors, there's the bugs and the wildlife and the other people who might not like me and all of this stuff that people will use. Some of it with good reason and some of it not so much. But for people that you feel like are lack of a better name, Urban queers, the ones that don't see themselves getting into nature, how would you encourage somebody to take first steps to getting outdoors and connecting with nature?
- [20:01]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah, I would say every city has an edge. Go to it, see what it feels like there, see which way you want to look, and just start paying attention to the things that capture you. For me, I'm in Salt Lake City, so I'm really close to the foothills here. And you can easily be walking through the neighborhood, but have the mountain right next to you. Um, your walk can turn into a hike, can turn into a trail run, can turn into your fly fishing on a stream. Um, it really is like a literal. Choose your own adventure out there. You don't have to stay longer than you want, you don't have to go farther than you want, but it's all there for you. And you have just as much right to be out there as anyone does.
- [20:55]
Justin Yoder
Yeah.
- [20:57]
Patrick Ramsey
And you don't need gear to go outside, like for a general little just jaunt. Like you don't need hiking boots to, to go look at the hills on the outside outskirts of your city. And I think that we need to also pay close attention to the other versions of nature too. There's not just wilderness. There's, you know, I'm looking right now at my neighbor's cherry blossom tree, and they're like butterfly bush. And like within our cities, within our urban environments, there's ways to engage with nature. There's like waterways that go through our cities. A lot of cities have little ponds, fish, turtles, lots of bird watching. Yeah, I would just say starting outside, even just right outside your door, is a good place to start.
- [21:45]
Justin Yoder
That's such great advice. And I, I love the way that you. And of course, course you're a writer and a poet. So you. It's so good, but like finding, finding the edge of your city, you know, like every city has an edge. Like, I feel like there's a poem in that and you probably have written one about it. But it's so great and so true and excellent advice for somebody looking to, to start getting involved in nature. I would love it if you would take time now and just share one of your poems. With us so that we can start connecting our listeners to. To your work, to your art.
- [22:24]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah, I would love to. Okay, so this poem is titled Nymph. Sometimes on the river, I imagine taking home the mustached fishermen. Two of us hauling in dinner, laughing at slip haps, waders up to our hearts, and a river rushing through our legs. But truth is, we're still endangered species in rural places. Fishermen, fishing, men. But still, I think about the man from Montana on the tailgate of a 90s Toyota pickup, dry, chatty and triumphant. Gave me his number in the roadside gravel while I wrung water from my socks. He talked about beginner's luck while I talked about the art of untangling from willow boughs. I could teach you, he promised. I could show you everything I know. Wonder if he's still in town, still has the mustache. In another life, I'll come back to that riverbend as rainbow trout searching for his barbless hook. Just to feel his hands.
- [23:39]
Justin Yoder
It still gives me goosebumps. Like, that was the first poem that I ever heard from you randomly, somehow, on Instagram, and immediately reposted it just because I thought, like, this. This is actually poetry that I connect with and can not just connect with, but feel like as an outdoor lover and somebody that loves fishing as well, is just so powerful, so real, so connecting.
- [24:08]
Patrick Ramsey
Thank you. Yeah, it's. I mean, I think a lot of us have that type of experience where, like, we go out there and you don't know who's around. You might be a beginner, you might get totally skunked on the water. And. Yeah, for me, it was this. This moment of, like, a connection and almost like a what if? Like, this poem is really about saying that could happen to me, you know, like, what if me and the other fly fishermen, like, why not? I like living in that world, but it's not always the world that I feel I'm in. You know, I do feel like that we are still endangered species in some rural places. Like, there are definitely moments when I'm out on the trail by myself or out on a river by myself, and, like, I'm actively not open about my sexuality if it comes up in conversation or something, or, like, I'm not outing myself in some of these instances because it doesn't always feel safe, you know, in, like, the Utah, Idaho's Wyomings of the world. And so I like to find that line between those two worlds and say, that exists, but also, what if?
- [25:34]
Patrick Thompson
So good. What was it about the fly fishing setting where you felt like that's where you want to kind of wrap this poem in.
- [25:45]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah. So I started fly fishing and I started attempting to fly fish. I'm going to change the way I say that. I started attempting to fly fish in, like, 2021, I think, or 2020. And I loved it, even though I wasn't catching anything at the beginning. The secret that no one told me about fly fishing is that you have to make, like, 30 correct decisions before you even are putting the right thing in the water and putting it in the right way. Like, so over the last few years, I've spent more and more time getting less and less bad at fly fishing. And I. Yeah, I. That was one of those experiences on that. Like, I'm actively being a beginner at this thing and someone is offering me warmth in a place that I don't necessarily feel comfortable. And then going beyond that and making a bid to connect and something about just like, sitting on the roadside with our fishing gear around us and being in nature. It was kind of sexy. It was sexy. And it felt like a story was taking shape. And I wanted to capture that. The sense of longing, the sense of possibility, the sense of belonging, too, because I do actually belong on that river. And there is a world where, you know, we meet up again. And he did give me his number and he did try to follow up and go fishing with me, but we did not. But was just a moment on the river that felt like it vibrated a little bit. And that's what I look for in a moment that is going to turn into a poem is like a sense of resonance for me. Like something that kind of hits me like a gong and sticks with me. And then it'll turn into a note in my phone or on a notebook, and then it'll turn into a little writing session. And then eventually it emerges as a poem.
- [28:19]
Patrick Thompson
That poem reflected some of my experience, not necessarily wrapped around fly fishing. I don't think I've actually ever been fly fishing.
- [28:28]
Justin Yoder
Um.
- [28:29]
Patrick Ramsey
Oh, you would know if you have. It's incredibly. It's an incredibly frustrating experience. For the first while.
- [28:36]
Patrick Thompson
Good call. About, like, the genuine longing and the possibility and kind of like the hope and the butterflies and all that stuff that I think is really part of the human experience. Um, but also with the queer lens of it needing to be quiet and internalized. I don't know. It. It. I feel like that's going to resonate with a whole lot of people.
- [29:11]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah. It's not always safe. And that's part of the queer Experience, too. And I say that with, like, an abundance of privilege. Like, I'm like a 6:2 white guy cisgender in America. Like, I know that I have an abundance of privilege, but that doesn't mean that I also feel completely safe on these rivers. Like, yeah, I. I think much of the outdoors is a place where we can feel sanctuary, but it's also a lot of the culture associated with it historically has been riddled with homophobia and transphobia and very unsafe experiences. So
- [29:57]
Patrick Thompson
especially in Western culture, you've got kind of like this hyper masculine kind of vibe that as an outdoors person, as a queer outdoors person, like, do you shrink? Like, do you. Do you make yourself small?
- [30:18]
Patrick Ramsey
I think that it's all a case by case basis. You know, sometimes you, like, stay quieter to mosey on by, and then sometimes you take up space because it's worth having the conversation or it's worth being louder and it's worth saying, like, hey, what you actually just said was not okay. Like, I'm gay and I don't appreciate using the language. Right. Like, it totally depends on, like, the circumstances of the situation and how. How, like, poorly it could go. It depends. The worst case scenario and the best case scenario. I guess, like, it's all just like, a matter of gauging a moment and saying, do I have to say something right now? And what do I sacrifice in myself? Where is my integrity if I don't?
- [31:25]
Patrick Thompson
Oh, yeah, I get that. We live in Texas. We live in a major metropolitan city, but it's still Texas. And there's times where I'm leaving the house and I've got, like, a queer shirt on or my LGBTQ outdoors T shirt on, and I think, like, okay, where am I going? Like, oh, I should probably change just in case. I hate that. Not proud of it. But I think that that's just kind of the decision that some people have to make depending on, you know, their situation.
- [32:02]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, I think everybody, too, has to make those own decisions for themselves. Like, we want to say here's the formula for this, but there isn't a formula that's case by case. And, you know, like, we. We could be in the queer part of Dallas and still face discrimination and hurled insults and stuff, you know, so it's not just something that you have to unfortunately be concerned about in rural areas and in the west or in nature, unfortunately.
- [32:44]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah. And I will say, like, and then there's also times. There's probably the majority of times where I am openly myself. Like, I took a fly fishing class at local fly shop in Salt Lake City because they had a pride flag in their window. And so I'm going out on the water. I'm, like, riding to the river with the instructor, just talking about life and, like, actively feeling like this is going to be a safe space and, like, I don't have to worry about, like, whether I should, like, closet myself while I'm talking to this river guide. Like, it. And then there's other moments where, you know, you'll connect with someone and you'll be their first gay friend. Like, I, I. That poem that I just read, like, he very well could have, like, become a good friend. I don't think that he was an unwelcoming person at all. I think that most of the people in the world are largely good, and then there are some lost people who make lost decisions. But for the most part, I think the people out there are okay to cross paths with.
- [34:08]
Patrick Thompson
And it's remarkable how powerful a flag in a window can be.
- [34:14]
Patrick Ramsey
Truly, I probably wouldn't have ever caught. Caught a fish on a fly rod if I didn't see that little flag in the window.
- [34:22]
Justin Yoder
Were you ever interested in it before?
- [34:24]
Patrick Ramsey
Or.
- [34:24]
Justin Yoder
It was something about the combination of seeing that pride flag and the fly fishing shop.
- [34:29]
Patrick Ramsey
I was deeply, yeah, I was deeply interested in fly fishing. I had already been fly fishing really poorly for, like, three years at this point. I was like, I need, I. If I'm gonna spend this much time on this sport, I need to start, like, learning actual technique. And, And I went to one fly shop and I walked in and it was like, nobody approached me. And I just was like, oh, this is like that feeling that you get when you're trying to start doing something and you feel the gate is being kept, like, was just like, not for me. And then I remembered that I had seen a little flag in the fly shop in Salt Lake. And I was in Ogden when I saw that, which is like 45 minutes north of Salt Lake. Or I was in Ogden when I was, like, in that fly shop where I didn't necessarily feel welcomed. And I literally drove 45 minutes because I was like, I'm going to go to a fly shop and sign up for a class today. And if it's not going to be the one near me, it's going to be the one that's far away, that's queer friendly. And it, yeah, it, it gave me the opportunity because I knew that they were going to be welcoming. To lean into this interest and not be concerned about how my identity would be perceived in this hyper masculine space. And because of that, like, I didn't think at all about my identity on the river while we were doing the course because they had built a welcoming and affirming container for the people like me and the people who are in my course to learn within. And I think that's like the real opportunity for allies in the outdoor space is make those containers feel inclusive. You know, like when you're making a course, make sure that the shop people are coming to meet you at. Or like the van that's shuttling people to the river pickup or whatever. Like throw a little pride flag on there, like it. Or make a little logo with like a rainbow pattern. Like, it costs nothing to be an ally. And the value that it brings to people who are afraid to enter your activity or outdoor, whatever it is is invaluable. Like, I can't, I can't put a value on how good it feels to start doing something in the outdoors that I was nervous about in a queer, affirming environment.
- [37:12]
Patrick Thompson
Powerful stuff with a simple gesture. So if you're an inclusive business owner, hint, hint, make sure you're letting people know.
- [37:23]
Justin Yoder
Patrick, we would love it if you would share another poem with us.
- [37:28]
Patrick Ramsey
Totally happy to. All right. This next poem is about Brokeback Mountain and being a young person who watched it. It's titled tell you what, we could have had a good life together. Confession. When I was 16, I made a secret email account so I could make a secret Netflix account so I could secretly watch Brokeback Mountain. And if I had a time machine, I would go back and hold that quietly broken baby face in my hands as the credits roll and Willie Nelson sings He was a friend of Mine. And tell him that there are good stories too. I tell him that he may live where the highway ends and the wetlands begin, but that very same road can lead you anywhere. That the world is full of quiet stories of good men, of hold your hand in town. Men. For every man who would make you a scarecrow in a field, there is a man who would brew you chamomile tea with honey. For every tire iron, there is a dance floor full of wild horses. Those stories you don't hear about yet. The lovers who survived the long western winters together, they exist. And for now, it is a good thing they don't make the news. Wow,
- [38:51]
Patrick Thompson
that's hard hitting, heavy stuff. And I remember I made up so many fake emails when I was a lady. This is before the days of Netflix. This is back on like aol, but wow.
- [39:14]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah, the digital, the digital gymnastics that we all did to get an inkling of something like a connection or something like a similar shared story was just. It was a lot. And I think a lot of folks, when I shared a video of this poem, a lot of folks were in the comments saying they did the exact same thing in their own way. You know, like they stole a DVD from a friend's family's house, or they made their own secret email account, or like we all had these secret paths to get through the dark wood of hiding ourselves. And that's really what this poem is about for me. It's just the path that I was on just trying to find a story.
- [40:07]
Justin Yoder
What do you feel like you were hiding from the most? And like, I think all of us, I hope that it's getting easier for the younger generation and things are changing. But for you, was it more about afraid of family finding out, afraid of church finding out, friends finding out? All of the above?
- [40:34]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah. I would say for me, growing up in a Mormon community, and I say Mormon community as in like everyone in my neighborhood was Mormon. It wasn't like a fenced off, this is only Mormons. It was like a just regionally, there were only Mormons around me. It was everything. It was, you know, your neighbors are, your friends are your church members. They're the people that you grew up with. And yeah, I was crippled by the eternity that they had encouraged me to pursue. You know, like, everything is about forever in the Mormon Church. Like, you're gonna find a wife and you'll be together forever, and your family will be together forever, for time and all eternity. And so everything is talked about in this massive scale that you can't even comprehend. And so the idea that there is something in me that is inherently wrong or bad, and that I am this way, in this massive scale going to be forever wrong or bad was terrifying. And I just carried this guilt that, you know, I was this way. And it was also during I was a teenager in the Mormon church while Prop 8 was happening. So you have the church actively taking a public stance against gay marriage. You have the people in my life commenting on it, because that's what they're talking about on npr, on radio stations, like people trying to make gay marriage a thing. And, you know, I had a family member who said, you know, I think they should be able to get married, but they shouldn't be able to call it marriage. And it was just a total passing, obviously not thought about thing. But it's what they said in front of Me, and I was 16 years old and it was things like that that like, you know, put me farther back in the closet and let me know how the people around me felt about gay people. And so, yeah, it was family, it was friends, it was church. I was hiding from everything. And because I was trying to like, wear this mask, I think I was covering up all parts of myself. Like, I wasn't, I wasn't genuinely close with almost anyone because I was hiding everything behind a shell that matched whatever the people around me wanted me to be until I couldn't, you know, I, I wasn't, I wasn't able to live up to the facade that my community needed me to wear. And so at about 14 or 15, I stopped going to church and was like, you know, if I can't be good, I'll be bad. And that will be the, the new mask that I wear. That'll be the new thing that covers this up. I'll just be a bad kid and nobody will find out that I'm also a queer kid and a neurodivergent kid. Like, nobody will find that out because I'll be bad and I can just be that.
- [43:58]
Patrick Thompson
I wish that your experience with queer film was a little bit more like light hearted, happy, encouraging sort of story.
- [44:16]
Patrick Ramsey
It was, it was nuanced. There's parts of it that are beautiful and there's.
- [44:21]
Patrick Thompson
Yeah, absolutely valid for sure, because like, there's like, there's reality in that pain that we saw the scarecrow line in and the poem you just read, I'm presuming, is referencing Matthew Shepard.
- [44:41]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah.
- [44:42]
Patrick Thompson
Which was like, I remember that vividly. And yeah, it was in Montana, but like that, it was terrifying me. Oh. Ah, you're good. So close. My geography is bad. It's a Texas education system. But yeah, there's, there's a lot of, A lot of pain and fear that you're sifting through, but it's unfortunately kind of a universal experience that a lot of us dealt with growing up. You put into words so beautifully and hauntingly.
- [45:25]
Patrick Ramsey
Thanks. And that's really why I'm passionate about telling stories where queer people are heroes and where the ending is good and the good thing can happen to the gay people, you know? Yeah, like, yeah, I, I want to center queer heroes in my writing forever. Like, I. Life is too short to just live a series of sad endings. And sure, it is part of life, is part of the experience, but I think we have a drought of heroes, a drought of happy endings, and I am eager to tell stories in that space. Stories that make people want to stay alive.
- [46:16]
Justin Yoder
Yeah.
- [46:16]
Patrick Thompson
And we. That in itself, that puts you on track to being that hero that, you know, a lot of us needed when we were growing up.
- [46:28]
Justin Yoder
And we need the happy endings that you mentioned. Like, I feel like so much of the queer community, especially queer history in so many ways, doesn't necessarily have a sad ending, but there's a lot of. A lot of pain, a lot of. A lot of fight, a lot of hardships. And to be able to have a happy ending in these queer stories just can really breathe life into people, I think.
- [47:05]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah. And I. And I say that not to forget about the pain or not to, like, write it off.
- [47:10]
Justin Yoder
Sure.
- [47:10]
Patrick Ramsey
But to hold it with. To hold it with the celebration and the triumph and the rest. I write a lot about just being home, you know, about walking into the kitchen and kissing the back of someone's neck while they're cooking, you know, because that's also part of the queer experience.
- [47:30]
Justin Yoder
Yeah.
- [47:31]
Patrick Ramsey
I don't think that we have to always be like, I don't think that marching and protesting at the Capitol is the only radical act we do. You know, it's. Our radical acts are not stuck in just our advocacy. Like, I think it's also a radical act just to come home and to be able to feel like you're at home. And that's what I want to give word count to is, you know, the. The moments that feel like the great part of queer humanity. You know, I've read a lot of sad stories, and I like writing stories that just, you know, make you want to stay in the moment.
- [48:29]
Justin Yoder
I guess it normalizes it too. Like, just makes it feel so. Yeah, this is the way I'm supposed to be and who I am. And just because I am queer doesn't mean I can't have what we've always seen in straight movies or TV shows. Like, everybody deserves to have that kind of relationship and it just be made normal.
- [49:02]
Patrick Ramsey
Right. And, like, normalize. Two men holding hands in downtown Ogden. You know, like, in a place that 10 years, you. Maybe 20 years, you definitely wouldn't have seen it. Like, we can see that too. And I think that has just as much a need and place in the literary canon as some of these more devastating stories. So I think we hold the pain. And also having lived it, having experienced it, we get to celebrate the joy and the pleasure and the triumph even more so because we have something to contrast it with.
- [49:49]
Patrick Thompson
Preach.
- [49:52]
Justin Yoder
You should be a poet.
- [49:56]
Patrick Ramsey
Like, never call me a preacher.
- [50:02]
Justin Yoder
How about sharing another Poem with us.
- [50:05]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah, let's do it. Okay. This one is. So I write a lot about being a queer outdoorsman, about being out there. And this is about a backpacking trip in the High Uintas Wilderness here in Utah. It's titled Cutthroat Lake. The yoke of morning finally breaks open. Condensation inside our apple green rainfly is proof that despite my fear of black bears, despite the presence of mountain lions, despite the hungry elk hunters in the woods around us, we have survived another night in the High Uintas Wilderness. The fire ring is a black and ashed memento of our night where we cooked and pulled whiskey, where the tread of my boots melted away, where we laid a blanket and let our September bodies meet the moon and smoke. The lake is still and quiet like a mirror in an empty home, except for the murmurs of cutthroat rainbow tiger trout emerging like quiet thieves to steal winged insects from the surface. And there is my fly rod propped against a tree like a promise line taut fly tide waiting. He sleeps in because the mountain doesn't keep good time. I tell him I'm going to catch breakfast. He goes back to sleep because he believes me.
- [51:44]
Patrick Thompson
That last line.
- [51:45]
Patrick Ramsey
Ah, just a little backpacking poem.
- [51:51]
Justin Yoder
More than that, though, for people that love the outdoors. Like, I. I know that I have said this already, but. And so much of our community is going to relate to it because they are outdoors people and love it. But you just bring life and this romance and normalcy to what so many of our community craves. And the way that you word it just is. It's so beautiful and so impactful.
- [52:29]
Patrick Ramsey
Thank you. Yeah. And I think going back to earlier, what I said, like, about happy endings, like, I don't need someone to ride off into the sunset. Like, I just need a moment that ends well, that, that is worth remembering and sharing. And this is what I would consider, like, the type of happy ending that I want to, like, offer the world of queer people and queer, like, outdoors folk. Just a moment of, like, rest and wonder and a little bit of sexiness and. Yeah, just that's. It's all. It's all part of it. Like, that's part of our existence, too. And I am eager to tell more of those types of stories.
- [53:20]
Patrick Thompson
And I sure hope that you continue to do it. You have quite a gift.
- [53:25]
Patrick Ramsey
Thank you.
- [53:26]
Patrick Thompson
I genuinely mean that. So I appreciate that you're sharing it with us, with our listeners, with the world at large. I don't think you quite grasp the impact that you're going to have on people.
- [53:53]
Patrick Ramsey
I really appreciate that. Thank you. And, hey, I'm just happy to be here. How cool is it that we're on a podcast for LGBTQ Outdoors talking about doing gay stuff in mountains?
- [54:07]
Patrick Thompson
Yeah, I love it.
- [54:09]
Justin Yoder
I absolutely love it. We still have some more to talk about, but I really feel like we're gonna get connected more and end up doing something together with our community people can get involved with. So we have to talk more about that soon, too. But I know that you also have the Right Club. Can you share about the Right About Right Club? How did it begin? What is it?
- [54:35]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah, yeah. So Right Club is named after Fight Club, but we don't do any. There's no bloodshed. Occasionally there are tears, though. It's basically just folks coming together on a weekly basis to a tea shop in Ogden called Atlas Tea Company. It's every six. Every Tuesday at 6pm we get together. I bring a poem, like, by someone else in the world, and share it with the group. It's usually 10 to 15 people. And then we discuss what's going on in the poem, what we like about it. And then I offer a writing prompt. If people want to write to, the prompt is totally up to them. A lot of people come with their novel that they've been working on or sometimes schoolwork, and they just have the opportunity to write in community with other people for 40 minutes and then share their work and get feedback. It could be something that they wrote that night, could be something that they're just working on that they've had in a drawer forever. And essentially, it's just a bunch of writers from a bunch of different backgrounds and different interests getting together to write in each other's company. Like, I. I believe that writing does not have to be a solitary act that we can write together. And coming out of COVID it was really important to me that I did something with Writing Community that that was in person. I really wanted to feel the connection of, you know, getting to know a group of people who would come on a regular basis and care about each other's lives and, like, show up to a physical space and just focus on writing together. And so that's what we do every. Every week. And it's been probably one of the coolest experiences of my life. Just this group of people who have been coming for three years now every single week. It's like, mix of people for sure, but there's a couple regulars who've been coming since the beginning, and I just, like, I never would have met them otherwise. Like, but we connect in such a strong way just because we love writing and want to do it alongside other writers. And there's this deep intimacy that happens when you invite someone to just share a poem in a group or to write a poem in a group and share it. You get to the inner workings of their heart and their mind. You get to have conversations that they've only had with themselves, and you go pretty deep really quickly. And for me, it just feels like such an honor that people are willing to come and sit at the table with me and invite me into their inner voice. And, yeah, it's just a. A wonderful, wonderful thing to write with other writers.
- [57:56]
Patrick Thompson
What a cool concept. And, like, I'm so glad that you created something like this. I also want to celebrate the brave writers who are willing to share what's pouring out of their heart. I know a lot of people can't do that. This is very personal. This is very deep. They're terrified of their soul that's on the paper being judged. And so, like, it takes enormous bravery, but. But also enormous trust.
- [58:35]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah.
- [58:36]
Patrick Thompson
And it sounds like you built that with your community to get safe, constructive feedback.
- [58:45]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah, absolutely.
- [58:47]
Patrick Thompson
That's amazing.
- [58:48]
Patrick Ramsey
Thank you. Yeah, it. It's definitely communal effort. You know, we. We kind of set some guidelines, some rules for us all to follow. Like, we kind of all just agree that, like, this is going to be a safe and a brave space. Like, that's always been important for me, is, like, this is not just a safe space. This is so safe that you can feel brave here, too, and comes through. Because then people come and they're like, I was just going to come and listen, but I feel, like, inclined to share because I saw how everyone else was received. And, you know, my goal for the group is for people to leave feeling more like writers than they came and more excited about their relationship to writing. You know, we're never gonna say, like, hey, your poem sucked. You should leave.
- [59:45]
Justin Yoder
It's.
- [59:45]
Patrick Ramsey
It's literally always a celebration. It. It's always going to be, hey, I really liked your title. Or that metaphor about the bird was really beautiful. And it's only ever critical if someone comes and they're like, I've been working on this poem for a year. Please destroy it. And then even then, it's just like, your ending could have been stronger. Like, it's. It's never a. It's never criticism in. In a harsh way. It's always a. We want to stoke each other's fires, and we really do. And you do that. On a cadence, on a weekly basis, enough with people. And then all of a sudden, you're asking them how it was when their parents visited last week, and you're getting invites to their Christmas party, and suddenly you have friendships with all these people. And it's like, I tell people that, like, I know that there's a loneliness epidemic. I do not experience that. Like, because these people show up, and. And that is not. It's. I have all of them to thank for that. Like, we all come together and do this thing and make it feel like a community. And I really think that it could happen anywhere. Like, I think that any group of people could form a right club, you know, of their own version. And it just takes showing up and deciding that you want to organize something. And, you know, it could be like a knitting club. It could be a walking club. Like, I'm a huge advocate for organized, ritualized hangs. Like, just meetups around a certain thing. Like, I'm also involved with the LGBTQ climbing group here in Salt Lake. I'm not going there as much lately, but, like, I've gone to their meetups. And it's so nice because you get to meet queer people and you all have at least something in common. Like, it's. You're all connected by way of a shared interest. And so it's. It's a great way to meet queer people outside of, you know, a bar and outside of the typical party landscape that you often see. And, yeah, just a huge advocate for organizing, meeting on a regular basis and committing to, you know, sharing space with people in person.
- [62:17]
Patrick Thompson
Amazing.
- [62:19]
Justin Yoder
Yeah. And so powerful. Providing community that people can be authentic, be themselves, feel safe in is something that's very much needed and something that I think people crave as well, especially in today's society. I don't want to take up too much of your time, but I would love it if you do have another poem that you might want to share as we start to wrap up.
- [62:50]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah, let's see. What kind of poem do we want? I'll do this kind of silly little one. This is. I'm really inspired by. Or maybe inspire is not the right word. I'm really influenced by Internet culture, believe it or not. I'm online so much. I work in marketing. I like. Obviously, I have Instagram and stuff, and so I. You know, some of those little snippets of phrases that just happen in the online world really captivate me, and I just think of ways that I can use that as a writing prompt, basically. So handful of years ago there was that phrase, you're in his DM or you're in his DMs. I'm insert alternative thing here. We are not the same. So this is based off of that meme's format. You're in his dms. I am writing something on the riverbank, identifying bird songs. Yellow warbler, American robin, song sparrow, memorizing the line dance of dragonflies, measuring how much day is left with the width of my thumb, one eye closed. You're in his dms. I am ankle deep in snowmelt, looking for a pebble the color of his iris, watching the ribbons of light break around the shins of trees. I'm summoning new freckles on my shoulders, new squint wrinkles becoming more sweat and animal than man. I'm coming home with mud on my feet. You're in his dms. I'm flirting with the rainbow trout. They're flirting back. We are not the same.
- [64:53]
Justin Yoder
I don't even know what to say. Like after listening to one, I'm like,
- [64:57]
Patrick Ramsey
I. I'm obsessed with your guys reactions. So generous.
- [65:05]
Patrick Thompson
It's real.
- [65:06]
Justin Yoder
It's so real and like something that I can just so connect to with it being queer, outdoors related, you know, something like I've never heard before until you came along and just blowing me out of the water. And I, I really hope that more and more doors open for you and you get everything out of this that you, you want because it's a, an incredible journey that I think, like Patrick said earlier, is going to impact a lot of people and bring joy and happiness and creativity and the feeling of being seen into people's lives and, and that's a beautiful thing.
- [65:55]
Patrick Ramsey
Well, that's an incredibly generous thing to say. Thank you. And all I want for many of this is to just write poems and connect with people and that's what we've been doing. And I feel incredibly lucky that the poems that I'm writing are things that people want to sit down and read or listen to. And yeah, just super fortunate. I often tell people I cannot believe that writing a poem is free because it feels like the best thing in the world. Like I think it's the only thing that I can truly get completely lost in. Except for the wilderness. I, yeah, I just love it. And so I am really appreciative when I find people who can connect to it and always honored when it lands in the right ears and other people feel inspired by it too.
- [66:54]
Justin Yoder
Well, you've definitely found a couple new fans here and I Know, I'm definitely going to be picking up your book, Butterflies Are Rare Beehives and Cannot Wait for your next book to come out. Already?
- [67:07]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah. Can I plug that really quick?
- [67:09]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, go for it.
- [67:11]
Patrick Ramsey
Okay. So my next book will be out in June of 2027, right in time for Pride. It'll be these poems I read today and it will be in a book that does not yet have a title. I was just on a call before this trying to figure out what the title should be, but that's like the final piece, but it's really just eco poetry and queer poetry, just about being out and out there. And I'll probably be going on a short little tour around the western states. So if anyone listening is in a community where they think their local bookstore would be interested or know some folks who would be interested in connecting regarding the book tour, I'm going to be planning that out or my publisher will be planning it out. But yeah, June 2027, Tory House Press will be publishing the full length debut collection of my poetry and I am super stoked.
- [68:15]
Justin Yoder
Well, if you want to make that tour a little bit farther east to Texas, let us know. We'd be glad to help any way we can with it.
- [68:24]
Patrick Ramsey
Hey, Texas is west, so I'm into it.
- [68:28]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, Texas is big enough. It's all over. Really. Man.
- [68:32]
Patrick Ramsey
I know. Truly.
- [68:34]
Justin Yoder
Any other final thoughts from either either Patrick's tonight before we close out, I
- [68:42]
Patrick Thompson
was literally like 2 minutes ago looking up where I can buy the book Butterflies are Rare in Beehives. Because I need more of that in my ears.
- [68:56]
Patrick Ramsey
Yes, you can find that on Amazon or on bookshop.org you can order it through whatever your local bookstore is.
- [69:05]
Justin Yoder
Perfect.
- [69:05]
Patrick Thompson
Awesome. Gonna do it.
- [69:08]
Justin Yoder
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Patrick for being a guest with us and becoming a friend. I. I noticed our paths are going to cross and I. I really believe that we're going to be doing some work together in the future. I have ideas spinning that we need to talk about. So. Yeah.
- [69:28]
Patrick Ramsey
Yeah, awesome. Thanks for having me, you guys.
- [69:30]
Justin Yoder
Absolutely. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to follow Patrick on Instagram at rite. Patrick, that's W R I T E Patrick. Visit his website and check out his chapbook Butterflies Are Rare in Beehives. I think that you're going to love it. If you've loved some of the poems that you already heard tonight, remember to give us a review on this podcast. Podcast too. Spotify, Apple Podcast. We're trying to boost those. Check out LGBTQ Outdoor Fest and until next time. Get out there.