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LGBTQ Outdoors Podcast
44: Breaking Barriers in Fly Fishing: The Journey of J. Michelle Swope
00:58:52
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- [00:01]
A
I've always fly fish. Honestly, I credit fly fishing with probably saving my life. If I didn't have that outlet, I'm not sure how things would have gone. Like, the outdoors means that much to me and it's also very. That's also why today I'm still very passionate about trying to remove any barrier to folks who want to be in the outdoors, regardless of who they are or how they present. Like, that's just a really huge passion for me.
- [00:29]
B
Every trail has a story, and when LGBTQ plus people gather in the outdoors, those stories become community, adventure and belonging. I'm Justin Yoder and this is the LGBTQ Outdoors Podcast. Hey everyone, it's Justin with the LGBTQ Outdoors Podcast. And I have my amazing co host with me again today, Patrick Thompson.
- [00:53]
C
Hey, everybody.
- [00:56]
B
And we have a lot that's going on right now. It's spring here in Texas and we have a lot of great events going on around the country. But I just want to plug real quick before we jump in with our guest, the one that everybody hears about because registration's going on and we want to get people there. That's LGBTQ Outdoor Fest. So if you are just listening or living under a rock and you don't know what LGBTQ OutdoorFest is, it's kind of like a four day summer camp for queer adults. And this year it's going to be in Colorado. So if you want to learn about it, go to LGBTQ outdoorfest.com and you can find all of the answers to your questions. You can find, find out the schedule workshops that's going to be on and register. So we would love to have you there. Patrick, you have anything you wanted to plug about it?
- [01:47]
C
It's awesome and you should totally come.
- [01:50]
B
Yeah. Hopefully we'll get people sign up from that.
- [01:54]
A
Yeah.
- [01:56]
B
Be inspired.
- [01:58]
C
Okay, so Outdoor Fest, it's one of those things where like, it is kind of difficult to like really genuinely completely explain if you haven't experienced it. I know, like, we talk about it all the time. It's, it's really turned into something special that I look forward to not only like learning new things and meeting new people, but there's this really cool sort of unspoken bond that happens when a bunch of the friends, but also strangers and, you know, friends you haven't met yet, gather together from all sorts of different places and different walks of life and you come together in the outdoors. Like there's, there's just this magic that happens and you've kind of got to be there to, to check it out.
- [02:52]
B
You do. And it's, you know, it's kind of a crazy time that we're living in. So this is a great way to escape and meet new friends in the outdoors and get connected. So we'd love to have people there. How about we jump in with our guests and just get started with it? All right, cool. Our guest today is Jay Michelle Swoop, and she is a queer female fly shop and guide service owner. And while it's not been verified, we believe that she is the only queer female owned fly shop and guide service in the state of Washington. And so we are excited to have her and talk to her about her journey into the world of fly fishing and guiding. And got a really cool event that's coming up too that we're going to talk about at the end of the podcast. So welcome to our podcast. We're excited to have you.
- [03:42]
A
Hey, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
- [03:45]
B
Absolutely. I would love to start off, you know, I feel like you've got to be a pretty interesting person to live this life and then come into the journey of fly fishing. And not only that, but also guiding as a queer female, which I, I absolutely love. I'm actually, by the time this comes out, I'll have already done it. But I'm going to be speaking at the hiking expo this weekend in Denver, Colorado on diversity in the outdoors. And one of the things that I'm mentioning is how important it is to have queer and female guides and leaders in the outdoors so that people can see them represented and know that, hey, I can do that as well. So super excited to be talking to you today.
- [04:34]
A
That's fantastic, Justin. I'm glad you're doing that. That is wonderful.
- [04:38]
B
Yeah, let's, let's back up always. Let's talk about kind of your childhood and what, what that looked like. Oh, no, she's laughing.
- [04:51]
A
No, it's, it's great. I, I will give you the origin story of J. Michelle Swope. So I grew up in the great state of Washington here on the, and I grew up on the Hood Canal, which is a body of water that parallels Puget Sound. And I'll orient you guys, Puget Sound is where Seattle is. And if you hop across a peninsula, you hit the Hood Canal, which is a, which is the United States only fjord, interestingly. But it's this beautiful body water and has a lot of recreating and fishing on it. And that's where I grew up. I grew up on a farm. My dad was a police officer. My mom Was a stay at home and work her butt off and run this big 50 acre farm and wrangle five children. She made all of our own clothes until I was, I think in fifth grade. And she had a giant garden and we raised cattle and we sold beef, we raised pig, we sold pork, we raised chickens, we sold eggs, did all that stuff. While my father was making hardly any money as a police officer. I was a very adventurous and outdoor child. And I really did not want to be inside. I didn't want to learn anything but how to be outside and have a good time outdoors. Too much to my mother's chagrin. I will also add that my parents were very, very, extremely religious. So it was wearing dresses to school, not going to movies, not able to stay over at people's houses as a kid, things of that nature. So the outdoors and I got together. The outdoors really worked for me from an early age. So flashing forward, I have four siblings, three older than me, one younger than me. But at about three, the age of three, I discovered fishing. I discovered it because my dad liked to fish and I liked hanging out with him because he did cool stuff. He drew, he drove a car that had lights and sirens. He was able to carry a gun. And he just, it was, it was rad, right? And I love the uniform thing. So I was just like, oh, you're my dude. So at a very young age, I just started following him around and he liked to fish when I got into it. And at three, I, my first memory is of catching a fish. So that really worked for me. I was super stoked about it. And then going forward, I was turning 7, 7 years old. And my dad at the time was working graveyard shift and he came home and he said, listen, tomorrow when I get home in the morning, I'm going to take you and only you and we're going to go fish. It was so rare to have any of my dad's attention. Just me, right? So we go, I'm up the next morning he comes, we load up in the van, we drive to this lake. He's like, I got to sleep, take the canoe, go fish and don't wake me up. And when I get up, then we'll fish together. I'm like rocking, that's perfect. So I'm seven, I get the canoe on my back, I trail it down to the lake, I dump it into the lake, I get in the canoe, I'm paddling around, I'm throwing my meps spinner rooster tails with my little spinning rod and I'm not catching a dang thing, but there are two people down the lake for me that I can see. And they are standing in the water about knee deep and they're doing something very odd. They're swinging something back and forth, back and forth. And wouldn't you know it, they're the only two people on the whole lake catching fish. Well, I freak out. I paddle back as fast as I can. I run up, forgetting my dad has told me not to do this, and I bang on the van and I'm like, dad, dad, dad, dad, dad. Well, remember dad? Police officer. He comes blasting out of the van just like something is wrong, right? And I say, oh, whoops. I go, But I was just overcome. I was like, dad, what is that? I'm pointing at the guys. And he goes, oh, oh. He's like, that's fly fishing. And I go, I want to do that. And he says, I, I don't know how to do it, but we'll figure it out. So a week later, he came home with my very first fly rod, which was a Fenwick gold colored fly rod. And I loved it dearly. So a week after that, he then brought me home a fly tying kit. And. And this is a thing.
- [09:06]
B
Seven years old.
- [09:07]
A
I was seven. I just turned seven. Wow. And this is, you know, this is pre Internet, y'. All. So I spent a lot of time at the library trying to find books on fly fishing. I didn't understand the mechanics of it. I remembered watching those guys at the lake. So it was me out in the field like whipping grass and just trying to figure out the mechanics of fly fishing. I didn't do a very good job. And then the whole fly tying thing was fascinating too, because what I know now is the, the kit I got was they had the feather. The thread in the kit was. The thread was black, brown and gray. But the pictures in the kit of how to, how to, I know now we're Atlantic salmon flies. So they're very colorful, very big, very beautiful. So but as a kid I said, how do you make that, that beautiful big Atlantic salmon fly, which is like eight different colors out of this material that they gave me, which I now know is dyed rooster feathers and dyed parrot feathers and crappy thread. So this led me to my life of crime. So this is where you could take this as an inspirational story or a cautionary tale. Are you ready? I started.
- [10:14]
B
I'm ready.
- [10:15]
A
I started stealing my mom's thread because remember, she made my own clothes or all of our clothes, and she had all the pretty colors. So I started just poaching her thread. And then I was looking around, and I realized that on the farm, there were all these beautiful fruit. Like, cows had red hair, chickens had these great feathers. Notably dogs. My dogs at the time were black, silver, and white. And I was like, oh, that's lovely. So we're going to go forward probably about four months. And Sunday dinner's happening, and mom sets us down. There's seven of us at the dinner table. Mom says, kids, we have some terrible news for you. We have to put down the dog. And we were like, what? Why? Why? Why do we have to put down the dog? She said, well, I don't know, but I think. I think the dog's sick. I think the dog has mange. And we're like, what is mange? She says, I don't really know, but there are patches of hair falling out of the dog. I was like, oh, oh, no. So I had to confess. So, oh, no, the dog. The good news, the dog liked a happy, happy life. I still got in trouble for taking my mom's thread until I finally found Patrick's fly shop in Seattle, which is still there today, and actually started getting, like, the proper materials. But that is the origin story of me and fly fishing. The other thing is, I fish in all different kinds of ways, but I don't hold still really well. So fly fishing totally works for me. So that's how. That's how I got started.
- [11:52]
B
Okay. I was not expecting.
- [11:54]
C
I love that whole story.
- [11:56]
B
I wasn't expecting any of that story, honestly. But also at 7 years old, because, like, I going fly fishing as an adult, I'm just like, this is the most complicated, difficult thing to be able to get into. And so, man, wow, kudos to you for seven years old and even starting tying your own flies and being that resourceful to go to the library, look up what they look like, find the materials on the farm. Like, that's amazing. I love that.
- [12:27]
A
Well, it's a sign of being stubborn, right? Yeah. Yeah.
- [12:34]
C
I want to take a look at one thing you said that I found really interesting is your origin story is an example of why representation matters. And maybe not like. Like in the. The internal sense, but the fact that you saw two people doing something successfully and. And you're like, I want to do that. Like, maybe that's. That's, you know, can be part of me. And I think that's cool. Had you not seen them, it's very possible your entire life would be completely different.
- [13:11]
A
Truly. Truly. Yeah, truly. Yeah, two things there. One is, you know, I mean, we can hop to the. A little bit about. I got kicked out of my family when I was 17 for being gay. And it was a very abrupt cutoff thing. They were highly religious. But there's that juxtaposition, right. Of a father who was so amazingly supportive of me and everything I wanted to do until that. Right. So that was the, the abrupt stop. But. But, you know, so I credit. And I have to. Because that's true. I credit him for. For who I am today because he allowed that to happen. He allowed me to flourish. Like, he would take me fishing. He bought me the fly rod. He didn't know how to do it, but he didn't care if he knew how to do it. He was very, very supportive. It just, you know, that whole. That whole whoops, I like girls thing really threw him for a loop.
- [14:04]
B
Can I ask what around what year was that that you came out?
- [14:09]
A
I. I was outed. I tried like hell to hide it because, again, very religious community and family, but I'm still not that subtle. And I. Let's see. They found out when I. In 1985.
- [14:26]
B
Okay.
- [14:27]
A
Yeah.
- [14:28]
B
Yeah, that's. I mean, it's never really an easy time to come out. It's getting better for a lot of people, but especially back then.
- [14:37]
A
Yeah.
- [14:38]
B
Like, very difficult.
- [14:40]
A
I don't know how much time.
- [14:42]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know how much you know about my family and not going to dive into it because I've. I've talked about it before, but same situation where I. I grew up on a farm in Missouri. Highly religious family. My dad was raised Amish, actually, so I can relate to a lot of what you're sharing right there. Um, did not come out, or in your case, forced out, as young as the age as you were. Um, so that had to be trying. What. What did that look like for you afterwards then? Like, where did you go? What did you do was fly fishing still at that time, and the outdoors kind of a big part that helped. Helped with that time or what did that all look like?
- [15:22]
A
Well, quite honestly, I mean, I did what a lot of us do at that age when we are surviving. You know, I had 1800 jobs all at once. I. I tried to. I tried to do some things. Didn't work out. I joined the Air Force and they had me kicked out of that. And I tried to stay in college at the time, but that wasn't working out either as I was there on a basketball scholarship. And you can't Keep your scholarship. If your folks till you're 26, your folks have control over that. They just basically systemically moved, removed everything in an attempt to get me to come home and not be gay. But again, back to the stubborn thing that just didn't work for me. So I just, I fished a lot. I've always fly fish. I credit, I credit, Honestly, I credit fly fishing with probably saving my life. If I didn't have that outlet, I'm not sure how things would have gone. Like, the outdoors means that much to me and it's also very. That's also why today I'm still very passionate about trying to remove any barrier to folks who want to be in the outdoors, regardless of who they are or, or how they present. Like, that's just a really huge passion for me. And we know why. Right? Because if that really worked for me. But yeah, I can't, I, I never have not fly fished. So through all those types, types of things, just trying to survive for a while. And then I, I probably put five therapist kids through graduate school, but came off the other side doing pretty good and doing fine and you know, went, went and got my grad degree and went and had a career and then, and, But I've always fly fished on the side. I've always guided on the side. And then when I, about 10 years ago now, I decided that fish were pretty awesome and people really fought too much in the workplace and I was fairly burned out on it. So I just decided to do all fish all the time. And so here I am doing the stuff and the things.
- [17:30]
B
Yes, amazing. Going after those goals, you know, like, I admire that and like, if I could, like, man, thinking about making a living out of just fishing all the time, like sounds like a pretty great life to me. I, I'm not good or big into fly fishing. Especially like living here in Texas. It's just a little bit harder unless you go up to like Beaver's Bend and Oklahoma. But, but I love fishing and have always grown up fishing as well. So I absolutely love it. And that sounds like you got a great life, so really, really, really cool. I'm curious, did you. No, go ahead.
- [18:14]
A
Oh, I was just going to say it. I do have a, I have a great life and what makes it great is my community. I'm surrounded by a bunch of really passionate folks who love angling and love getting more people into angling and, and you know, we try to talk about angling of all kinds. I orient towards fly fishing, always have, always will. But I also Fish with. For everything. With everything. So, you know, fishing in and of itself is. Is a wonderful thing. I just really do enjoy the fly fishing portion of the show, so.
- [18:45]
B
Yeah.
- [18:46]
C
How long have you been guiding?
- [18:49]
A
Since I was 20 a while. I just turned 60, so I'm not going to do that math out loud. It's embarrassing, really. Long time gu.
- [19:04]
C
Quite the career. What is it that you get out of being a guide to where you can do that passionately for that length of time?
- [19:18]
A
I love to teach and I love to. I get so much out of it that I love to, like, give. Fan that flame and feed that spark in other people. So when folks come and they want to try this thing out because they've heard about it and they, they find that it's. They find that people talk about it, but it seems like too hard or too difficult. You know, there's a thing about fishing and I'll. I'll pick on fly fishing for a minute. There's a thing about fly fishing where it's very exclusive, right? It started in a very exclusive way, eventually became very exclusive in, in countries where you had to pay. You either had to own the land or pay to access the land, which cut out a whole host of people that might want to play on the river but can't. And then there was the specialized equipment and it just became. Fly fishing had a lot of barriers. And then we, we think we're fancy folk and we created a whole new language about the items we used to fly fish. And that was another way to sort of create a barrier. I, I would compare it to some professions that have their own language. Lawyer. Anyway, I like to, I like to remove barriers to that. I like to break it down. I like to talk about, you know, it's a, it's a bobber, bro. It, you know, we call it.
- [20:39]
B
It's not an indicator.
- [20:42]
A
I just try. I like to, I love that. I love to like, open those gates and get rid of those preconceived notions about fly fishing and really make it accessible for anyone that wants to try it because it brings me such joy and I get such a rush of being in nature and fooling fish, like, and having them eat my fly instead of the natural that's right next to it, like that everyone should have that experience if they want it. So I just, I love that. And, and I, I'm. I'm that way all the time and have been for a really long time.
- [21:13]
B
That's what it's all about, right? Like, yeah, we, you know, our Whole organization, you know, one of wants to be able to get more of the queer community outside, get them out of the city, get them out of the nightclubs and get them outside and teach them something that they can practically pick up and be passionate about, whether that's fly fishing or hiking or wildlife photography or birding, whatever it is. But they also need that person that's going to be that they're comfortable with and trust to be able to help teach them how to do those things.
- [21:50]
A
It's true. And I also, if I may add to that, Justin, to me there's also a real issue around safety and I want my community. And when I say my community, I mean like my physical right here. I live in a small tourist town now in this fly shop and guide service and I'm out. Like there's no doubt about who I am and what I'm doing. And I want that to be true of other businesses in my area. And I can, I proudly say that at least in this town that's true. But if we go a little further out in rural Washington, that may be less true. And so along with inviting folks into the outdoors, like I want to do and you're doing, there's that element of safety that I also want to coach people on and, and, and help with because I want them to have a safe entry and a safe journey into our out of doors. And I find both of those things to be very important.
- [22:41]
B
100% totally agree with you on that. And you know, a lot of states are a lot more welcoming and inclusive than others. And so like especially us here in Texas, we think, oh, up in Washington you got it pretty great. But obviously in every state that you go to, there are the rural areas that can be more challenging. For sure.
- [23:03]
A
For sure, yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [23:06]
C
I'll lean into a angler stereotype that they like to keep their spots secretive. So like sort of gatekeeping to a degree, like, you know, I know this great spot and like I don't want other people coming in and screwing it up. And I can tell by your response she's laughing like crazy. But no, I'm glad that you're like, screw that, like the more the merrier. Let's do it. Let's teach properly. And I think not only does that get more anglers out there, but higher skilled and more in line with etiquette and conservation and everything like that.
- [23:52]
A
Exactly, exactly Patrick. That's exactly right for me. If I can get people interested and invested in the resource, they're going to take Care of the resource. So in this world, in my world, that is my beloved rainbow and West. Look cutthroat. Like, that's the trout that we. We are in a system here. These two rivers that I guide on mostly, and my shop is on is a catch and release fly fishing, single barbarous hook so you can fish with other things. It has to be single barbless, no bait. I'm invested in. In people coming here and having a good time and going fishing and catching fish. I'm invested in that. So they will become invested in handling the fish properly, putting them back, taking pictures, in sort of the keeping fish wet principles. Like all the ways that we handle fish which will keep this river going, our trout healthy and our water cold and clean. Like that feeds right into conservation. And for a long time, I've used my fishing as the back door to get people more interested in conservation. And we've been very successful here in Washington state at doing just that. I hold on purpose. I hold fly fishing clinics to get more people out to volunteer for different nonprofit organizations that do conservation work. So it makes me giggle to listen to people talk about their secret spots because that tells me they have never seen Google Earth. Like, I'm like, there, there are no secrets. Um, yeah, cool. You have a secret spot. I get the same when I have a. Very occasionally I'll have a customer coming in the shop and they're buying different things and I'm like, oh, cool. They're getting fly tight and stuff. I'm like, what are you tying. You know, just conversational. They're like, oh, it's a secret. I'm like, cool,
- [25:41]
C
that's adorable.
- [25:44]
A
Yeah, so, yeah, I'm not a fan of the gatekeeping in any way, shape or form. It doesn't serve us as a. It doesn't serve us as a human, as people. It doesn't serve us as fisher folk. It doesn't serve us as conservationists, and it doesn't serve us as community members.
- [26:03]
B
Yeah, for sure. If, if somebody, you know, might be listening to this and maybe fishing. Fly fishing isn't necessarily something that they've really thought about doing before. What would. What would be something that you would tell somebody that might inspire them? Like, why would they want to do. Why would they want to do this?
- [26:27]
A
Like, why would. Do you mean, why would they like to come out and try fly fishing or just come out? Yeah, okay. Fly fishing specifically.
- [26:34]
B
Fly fishing specifically, yeah. Since that's your. That's your love, that's your passion.
- [26:40]
A
Well,
- [26:45]
B
Also, like, I'LL when I want to get into the technical and a little bit and like the more details of how fly fishing works a little bit. But like when somebody's first getting into it, like regular conventional fishing, somebody can go to Walmart and pick up, you know, a 30 pole and tie a lure on it and start fishing. Where fly fishing, there's a lot more that's involved in it. And so if somebody tries to go do that and think that they're going to be able to have the same experience, it's going to be a lot, a lot bigger learning curve to it could be.
- [27:19]
A
Yeah.
- [27:22]
B
So, so what would you say? Like if somebody's like they're listening to this and we have their interest piqued, but for you, what is it about like getting on the water and catching those fish that makes it something that you've turned into a lifelong career? Pretty much it sounds like, I mean,
- [27:45]
A
so first of all, fly fishing, you see parts of the river no one ever else, no one really ever sees. So if you're fly fishing, you're going to parts of systems that are, are typically a little bit aways from, let's say a population. So you tend to be in a little more, less population dense areas. Not always there is urban fly fishing for sure. I'm not putting that down, just saying in general. But also it's a very easy natural movement, the actual rod movement and it's very harmonious. And standing in water is amazingly therapeutic. Like you know how people talk about like they stand in water and they have really great ideas. My best ideas are in the shower or I was in a deprivation tank and all this stuff. Standing in water is highly therapeutic. And so you have fly fishing where you have a rhythm of movement that is also very therapeutic. You're standing in rushing water and then you are just concentrating on becoming part of nature. So instead of you standing, let's say on the side of the bank, sort of looking at nature, I feel like this is my thing. I feel like I'm immersed in nature when I'm fly fishing. It feels more natural to me. I'm used, I'm imitating exactly what the fish are already eating. It's the only reason fly fishing works because we're imitating what they're already eating, right? And then I'm able to have this communion with this creature that, you know, we don't understand each other, but I feel like I have some communication with this creature and then I get a beautiful picture or not and then I let them go like it's just a, for me, it's a very magical, vibey way to be in the world. That really works for me. And I honestly never met anyone who went out and fly fish and came back sadder than they were when they left. I just, it's a very experience. I mean, you can. And this has happened to me. I just did this four days, no, five days ago. I busted the tip of my rod and I still had a good day.
- [29:52]
B
What?
- [29:54]
A
It's just, it's just a really wonderful way to spend some time outdoors and in the quiet and that's what I enjoy the most over time. The other thing, that's for the beginning, but over time, you guys, I've built a giant community around fly fishing, right? I've got, I've got mostly women, a lot of men, but mostly folks who identify as women around the country and some other places in the world who really like vibe on fly fishing the way that I do. And that has become just like a family to me. So even more than the physical act now, for me, it's very much a community building adventure for me. And that is really like, that also just makes me very, very happy. You should see the stroke when I have a woman walk in the shop. It's amazing. Like I just lose my mind with glee. And, and yeah, it's just, it's fantastic. It happens more now. But, but you know, still, our, this lovely sport is still very heavily male identified, but we're, we're working on that, right? We're making inroads with that. But it still, it still makes me so, so happy when people come in and say, hey, I heard about this fly shop. And I heard that this was a friendly fly shop. I heard that people are treated respectfully. I heard that, you know, you have enthusiasm and you have knowledge and that's a, that is music to my ears because that's, that's what I like. I walked into so many fly shops as a young woman and got just the emotionally and verbally shit kicked out of me. Pardon? For, for asking questions which was just so disheartening. Right? And, and I, I'm willing to guess we've all had that interaction at one point or another in some sort of athletic or some sort of sporting store. But in fly fishing, it just seems so targeted and so cruel that when I had an opportunity to start running the shop and then buy it, I was like, this is never going to be me. This is never going to be my shop. No one's ever going to work in the shop that has anything but the utmost respect and enthusiasm for anyone walking through the door. There are no dumb questions. Like, we're just going to talk about this, like, and. And that's been just such a delight to actually be able to manifest. Wow. How was that for a rant? Sorry.
- [32:21]
C
Amazing.
- [32:21]
B
No, that was great. I. I feel like if. If I was in your shoes, there would probably be almost no greater reward than somebody coming in and saying, I heard that this is a friendly shop that I can come to, and no dumb questions. And. And that's just incredible. Is there anything that you do to help promote that so that people know that? Are there. Do you put up any signs in your shop or pride flag or anything? Or is it just kind of people coming to experience you and you're just known in the community?
- [32:54]
A
All of the above. So I have. I have the. The pride flag on the door of my shop and I try to use inclusive language on my website. I'm out. I've been out. I've never been in. So I did a be what you don't. So United women on the fly did a be what you don't see campaign, which is live interviews on Instagram, and I did one of them for Pride Month last year, and it was as a queer fly shop owner. And I put it up on my socials and on my website, so I don't think there's really any hiding. I have a tag that says everyone is welcome, which, you know, we look for code. Right. So, you know, I didn't put up all queers come here, but if you. I still could. I mean, we'll see, but you know that everyone is welcome. That gets our attention. Right? We're looking for that. And then I don't. I'm not shy about it at all. So I get a lot of different folks that come on in, and that makes me happy. And then also, of course, word of mouth is great and so is Google reviews. Right? So. Yeah. Yeah, I. Yeah, there was two. To be honest with, it was too late to try and not be a queer fly shop owner by the time I bought the business, so I just thought, oh, we'll roll with it.
- [34:17]
C
Just lean into it. It's fine, you know?
- [34:19]
A
Yeah, yeah. Just see what happens.
- [34:26]
B
Well, it sounds like it's going well, so I'm. I'm excited. I'm glad that we're connecting. I. I was kind of surprised when we started LGBTQ Outdoors, how much fly fishing came into the circle, came into play, because it seems like it, and I Know that you were saying earlier it wasn't this way and maybe I'd kind of like your perspective on it now. It seems like it is pretty inclusive now, I'm sure. Not 100% all across the board, I'm sure. But how have you seen it evolved from, you know, back in the 80s, 90s maybe, where maybe it was more just men, straight men, white men focused to where it is now?
- [35:17]
A
That's it. That is harder for me to answer because I've been so involved in getting specifically women into fly fishing. So in 2013 we started United Women on the Fly and that that whole organization existed to get more women into fly fishing. And then we've since then branched out to I Fish, I Belong, which is now the 501C3 where we're trying to just get more folks into the out of doors in whatever way they fish. Which, you know, all species, all techniques, all people. We're just trying to be more inclusive about that. I can tell you on an amount, I can answer your question in terms of dollars. So I'll tell you that the fly fishing industry is keeping track. And women, folks who identify as women are the only growing demographic in the sport of fly fishing. And that is from the industry standpoint, that is still, that is still true. So that is that. But. And folks who identify as men still spend the most money in the industry of fly fishing. But if you're looking at a growing demographic, if you're looking at targeting a market and you're looking to grow your business, etc. Etc. Etc. That is the only, that is the only demographic where fly fishing is growing. That is actually we're getting more, which is great, groovy and cool, which I love. I'm very proud of that. I feel like myself and Heather Hodgson, who started United Women on the Fly, and a bunch of other folks who helped us found that organization and get it off the ground. I attribute that work to this growing demographic. And there's still more work to be done, which is why then we began, we started doing the DIY events around the country and also trying to push something larger around ifish I Belong not being so fly fishing focused. So that's great.
- [37:33]
B
It sounds like it's moving in the right direction then, at least from what we could tell by those numbers. So that's, that's great. We definitely want more women out there.
- [37:44]
A
It's hopeful. Yeah, it's hopeful. There's still work to be done. We're still trying to remove barriers and things we do. So folks can afford it. Because something you said earlier, I can't remember now if it was Justin or you, Patrick, about the cost, like someone going to Walmart, finding a pole going out. It's certainly less expensive to get to get like a spinning rod that there's a fly rod. That's true. Many of the fly rod companies now, though, are starting to put out base models that are great fly rods. The blanks are perfect. The reels, eventually you want to upgrade, but they. It's a starter kit and it's really good. And they started to get in competition with one another around sort of beginning base models, which really benefited us, the consumer. So that, that is a little bit of a bright spot. You can get into a kit with a rod and reel that you won't, you won't be sad about. It won't feel like you're casting a fence post for like 250, which is way less than, you know, a lot of fly rods for sure. But yeah, there's still work to be done there around trying to make things a little more equitable. Right, sure.
- [38:55]
B
Speaking. Speaking of like, you know, that beginner set up. If somebody was wanting to get involved with it, what would be your recommendation? I. I think it'd be awesome if everybody wanting to get involved can go to one of your workshops and maybe you can share more about where they are and how people can find out about them.
- [39:15]
A
Sure.
- [39:15]
B
Because having somebody to teach you, I know for me was huge to be able to do that. But I know not everybody that's listening has a teacher right down the road that they can go and jump in the river with. So what would be some practical steps that you could share for somebody to get started with it?
- [39:37]
A
You know, it is. Some folks learn by reading and some folks can learn by like YouTube. And that's awesome. And there's a bunch, there's a bunch of resources there, but a lot of us are fairly kinesthetic learners, so we learn kind of hands on. And so I would offer a couple ideas. One is that during COVID so United Women on the Fly is we have a website and we have a YouTube channel. And during COVID we pushed out a lot of content because what else are you going to do? Right. And so there, there are a bunch of our virtual classes online that one can access. If that is, if that is the way that you learn or you want some, some stuff there, that is something I would encourage people to look at. But honestly, reaching out to community groups or fly shops in the area and asking them if there are community groups or groups of people who go fishing and can. Can you join? Most places that I know. And I'm going to speak mostly for the west because I'm in the West, I'm in the pnw and so. And I'll, I'll include like, I'll include Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Arizona. I'll include that as part of what I'm speaking about. And then I know back east this is true too. But if you call a fly shop and ask them if there are groups of people who go fishing and if any of them are women these days, usually the answer is going to be, oh yeah, Judy lives down the street and you can go do that with him. So there are a lot of community groups that get together. Fly clubs also do this where you don't have to be a member, you don't have to pay dues in order to join their community and then go and fish. It's fun, it's safer because it's in a group. And usually you'll find some, some help there along the way. I will tell you that there is a map that you can access for free online. If you go on United Women on the Fly. We have a map of women fly shops and guide services and community groups. And you can look throughout the map and click on it and find all the contact information so there. And that list is getting longer by the day and it's delightful. Incidentally, it is verified I am the only woman solely owned woman queer fly shop in Washington, also in the West Coast. And honestly, from our research so far, there are only two solely owned women fly shops in the United States that we can come up with right now. And I'm one of them.
- [42:17]
B
Okay.
- [42:17]
A
So. Wow.
- [42:18]
B
Well, I say great in the aspect of great for paving the road and being the first. But hopefully there's gonna be a lot more that's gonna join.
- [42:28]
A
Exactly. It's like, oh, neat. And then. And then I'm sad. Right? You're like, oh, good. I would rather be one of 600. So yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [42:39]
B
One day. Hopefully one day.
- [42:40]
A
Yeah, yeah. But I would. That would be my thing. I would encourage people to use that resource. It's great. We put a lot of work into it. We update it yearly. You can find a lot of information there. And then all of our contact information is online too. You can. I think even my phone number is there. So I have people call me from all over saying, hey, I'm going to Alabama. Do you know of anyone I can fish with? So, yeah, Love it.
- [43:05]
B
Wow.
- [43:05]
A
That's good. In fact, I will tell you that I had a woman two years ago retire, and for her retirement, she decided to take herself on a trip around the United States. And what she did is she got online in United Women, and she made all these contacts, and she fished with all these different women all over. She started in Washington, went all the way down to New Mexico, all the way up and around, ended in New Hampshire, where she's from. And then. And she fished with all these people, and she now has, like, 60 new friends because she connected with all of them online and just said, let's go fishing. Yeah.
- [43:38]
C
Amazing.
- [43:39]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [43:40]
C
So incredible.
- [43:42]
B
Not only the connections and new friends that she would have got out of that, but just the stories and memories that will last a lifetime. Like.
- [43:50]
A
Absolutely.
- [43:53]
B
Share a little bit about your workshops and what states do you do you do those in specific states? Because I know you mentioned that you do them around the country, so let people know about those a little bit.
- [44:06]
A
Yeah, we had. Let's see, in 2026, we had do it yourself fishing events in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 different states. We've had them in several different states throughout the years. We've done these since. Our first One was in 2014 in Craig, Montana. Craig is a famous, tiny little town in Montana. It has one stoplight, two bars, and four fly shops. And it is like the biggest, smallest town in the world. And we had 100. I want to say it was 115 women show up and just blew that poor little town's mind. So that was a. That was a wonderful start to this. So right now we do DIY fishing events. In 2026, we did North Carolina, we did one in Atlanta. We did one in Montana, one in California. We're doing one in Oregon at the end of this month. And then we're doing one in Washington state. And although United Women on the Fly and I Fish, I Belong came from Washington State. This is the first DIY event we've ever held in our state. So that'll be fun. But essentially, we create these events with minimal registration cost, and we try to support anglers of all budgets, and we get people to gather and we hold events at night, and then we fish during the day, and we have clinics and classes and workshops, and then we go out and fish together. We do a big old group fish and hang. We pass out whistles. So if you catch a fish, you hit the whistle and we come running and we get pictures. It's just absolutely wonderful and fantastic. We involve community Groups from around the area, fly shops who want to participate. And we just have a wonderful, great community building time. We always have a conservation element to these. So we'll do a river cleanup or a beach cleanup or something along with. And, you know, we just do our best to get people from all ages to come and, and, and come and build community and fish with us. These, the, the events specific to Washington. And actually all the events we host, they are for women. They celebrate women, but they're not women only, so any gender can attend. They just need to be aware that it's led by women. And we. And it's specifically for the Roslyn Riffle. It's led by expert women. And we are celebrating women in Fly Fishing because it's International fly Fishing Women in Fly Fishing month and the 27th, which is the big event, our keynote event is Women in Fly Fishing Day. So that's the. Hence the sort of emphasis on that. But you don't have to be a woman, but you must be prepared to celebrate women.
- [47:13]
C
Heck, yeah.
- [47:14]
B
We love that. We support that for sure. You mentioned it. But let's dive into the, the big event that's coming up in June that we definitely want to be sure that people know about the Roslyn Riffle.
- [47:27]
A
Well, yes. If I may. First of all, I just want to underscore that we have scholarships to all our events and we opened it up and we've tried to blast that like on social media, on our website, to anyone that we can, that we have opportunities for scholarships. We're a nonprofit. We raise money for these scholarships and we try to use the money to get people in who otherwise, you know, through whatever financial issues they have or hardships they have, they still can come and enjoy this. And so we try to help pay for, well, we pay for their lodging, we pay for their food. We give them all the gear that they use so they can take it with them when they go. And we pay for a full day guided trip and then they can attend all the clinics and classes. So essentially we're getting them here. We're trying to remove all those barriers so they can not only have this great event and have this fun time with us, but also can continue it when they leave us. So that, that is the scholarship in a nutshell. We just ask that folks fill out the application and, and send it into us. And we're really excited about that. We, we've really been able to kick off some really fantastic folks who have stories and have since shared how much they enjoyed the event and how they're still fishing and still using the gear. And it's just been, it's been pretty great. So.
- [48:55]
B
And that's going to be on June 25th through the 28th.
- [48:59]
A
That's exactly right. June 25th through the 28th. It'll be based here in Rosslyn, which again is a tiny town right over the foothills of the Cascades, east of the Cascades. It's 84 miles from Seattle, just up and over the pass. And we have three days of programming scheduled. It's a DIY event. So we have a four hour workshop on. All the workshops are donation based. We have a four hour workshop for becoming an independent angler. We have a woman who's very famous in the world of fly tying named Brita Fordyce. She is coming to do fly tying demonstrations for us. And then Heather Hods is leasing, leading the, the independent angler class. And then we have casting workshops. We have a professional stand up paddleboard fly fisher coming from Virginia, ambassador for nrs. She's bringing a bunch of different singular watercraft that you can fly fish from. She'll be demonstrating them. And then NRS is donating to us a paddle board and a Life PDF PFD to and we're going to raffle that off. So there'll be lots of and there'll be paddle boards and other sort of singular watercraft that you can fly fish from to try out. And then we have an event Saturday evening. It's the, it's the big event. Friday we get together, we do a group fish where we're all together. I'm going to put on a short clinic about how to fish the Yakama river, which is the river we're going to be on. And then we all disperse and we fish in this massive area. So there's lots of room. We take pictures, we have a good time, we come back here Saturday night. We're going to have all you can eat tacos at the local taco truck right across the street from where I stand. And then we're doing, we're doing speed friending. So instead of speed dating, we're doing. So it's the same setup except we're not looking for love, we're looking for fishing partners. If the love happens, I'm not going to say anything but the design is to see like who are you compatible to fish with? So we're going to do that. And then we're also going to have something that we do at every DIY event called the Fly Fishing Olympics, which Is just hysterically funny and really fun relay race of fly fishing skills. And it always gets a big laugh and lots of participation. So. And we'll end it on Sunday, that. Sunday, the 28th, with Brita Fortis. Again. She's going to be demonstrating an articulated bait fish pattern. She's a proficient tire. She is a fly designer for Rio, which is a big deal in the world of flies and stuff. She'll be demonstrating that. And then we're doing a little bit of a, of a river cleanup. So in general, that is the weekend that we are going to have together, and we're very excited. We have group campsites identified, and we have blocks of hotel rooms. If you register, you get a, you get the link and you go in. And we've got a whole private Facebook page set up with all the information, fishing spots, maps of spots, all, all the things that are happening, all different resources of the area. We put a lot of time and thought into what businesses to tout, what businesses are friendly and welcoming and then different attractions throughout the area. Not just fishing ones, but other ones as well. Just trying to spread the love in the community and really sort of make this a celebration.
- [52:44]
B
What an incredible event. Like, everything that you're saying just sounds like, who, who wouldn't want to do that? Even if you don't know anything about fly fishing, who wouldn't want to do?
- [52:54]
A
Right. So I sort of. So you're getting on a plane. Is that what I'm hearing?
- [52:58]
B
I mean, tempting for sure. Tempting for sure. Like, are you going to be the one that gets me hooked on fly fishing?
- [53:07]
A
Oh, my dream.
- [53:09]
B
I've had two others that have tried, and I, I, I do it, and it's fun for the, for the time I, I haven't dove into it. And I think part of it, again, comes down to where I live. If I lived in, you know, a place where I had a great river right nearby where I could go after some beautiful rainbows and brooks and brown trouts, like, I, I think I would be way more into it, but I love everything outdoors. And so when I get the opportunity to go to Colorado and give that a shot with my friends that are out there, like, yeah, like, absolutely. So I think everybody should give it a shot.
- [53:48]
A
Yeah.
- [53:49]
B
I'm curious. Our podcast lives on and on and on. So this event is happening again, June 25th through the 28th, 2026. Are you going to be doing it each year? Is this an annual thing that you do?
- [54:02]
A
It will be an annual thing for here, yeah. Because I Get to. I get to throw my own party because I now own the fly shop and the guide service. So I was just like, why not?
- [54:13]
B
Okay, so if anybody comes across our podcast after listening to this and wishes, oh, I would have loved to go and do that. Yes, just wait till the next year. It's going to come around, right?
- [54:24]
A
That's exactly right.
- [54:26]
B
Awesome. Awesome. Well, we have loved having you and chatting with you. I'm curious, Patrick, do you have any final thoughts that you want to ask or share in wrapping up?
- [54:36]
C
No. Like, it's been so much fun. Like, just, we have the ability to see your face, like, light up and, like, you're the most excited person on the planet about this, and your joy is infectious. So thank you so much for hanging out with us and, you know, telling some stories. That was fun.
- [55:03]
A
Absolutely. Patrick, thank you so much. Justin, thank you so much for having me on. I'm very honored. I love, love the work that you're doing. And please continue. And there's any, anytime, any way that I can help, please let me know. And thank you so much for letting me talk about all this great stuff today.
- [55:22]
B
Absolutely. And I hope that there is some way that we can work together, do something together in the future, because that'd be a dream. If something else, like Patrick, like, if nothing else, like Patrick said, you are. You're just beaming with joy, and I just want to be around you, so.
- [55:36]
C
Exactly right.
- [55:37]
B
I mean, grab a beer and sit around a fire and chat with you and then go have a great morning on the water. Like, I. I would love that. Can you tell people how they can find out more information if they want to find out about your Fly shop
- [55:52]
C
or
- [55:56]
B
rosin riffle or all of the different things that you're a part of?
- [56:00]
A
Absolutely. So I'd be remiss if I also didn't mention Trout Unlimited, because I'm a Trout Unlimited. I'm on our state council, and I belong to our local chapter. And a lot of conservation, that work that I do is through Chad Unlimited, which has been a great bringer of conservation to sort of just like anyone. And I, I do really very much enjoy that work. So the way that you can find us is, first of all, you can look at the Fly Shop, which is Crow Creek Fly Shop and Guide Service in Roslyn, Washington, and that I have an online presence and I'm also on social media. You can Google J. Michelle Swope, and that will take you to all the same places that I am about to mention. You can also look@ifishibelong.org and that's just ifishibelong.org or United Women on the Fly, both of which have websites, both of which have social media presence. All those roads will lead you to our DIY events and the Roslyn Riffle coming in in June. I am easily Googleable as well, and my phone number's out there, so sincerely, folks can just call me on the phone, text me, or email me. I talk about fish 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So bring it on. It's fantastic. And I would love to hear from folks and talk about maybe places, other places we could bring diy, DIY to the communities, right? That would be amazing. Come to Texas, you guys. Come on.
- [57:36]
B
Definitely, definitely we could do it. Especially, you know, just what, an hour and a half, two hours north of us, right on the right, once you enter Oklahoma is Beavers Bend, which is a great place to go trout fishing. And good friend of ours and board member Josh McNabb got started with fly fishing up there when he lived here in Texas. So we definitely should do something for sure. But I'm just thrilled that you were able to come on today and share this passion with you. I hope some people get out to these events, get connected with you, and pick up a fly rod for the first time if they never have, and get. Get connected to the outdoors. So thank you again for coming on.
- [58:21]
A
Thank you so much. Thanks so much.
- [58:24]
B
Absolutely. Thank you, everyone, for listening today. We greatly appreciate you and I would love to ask that if you've enjoyed this, please take 3 seconds and rate the podcast after you're done, whether you're listening on Spotify, Apple podcasts, wherever it may be, that really helps boost us to the other people so that they can get connected to our community and to the work that we're doing. And until next time, get out there.