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LGBTQ Outdoors Podcast
S2 : Ep 5 : Lyla Harrod | Through-Hiking; A Journey of Self-Discovery and Embracing Authenticity
01:03:56
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- [00:00]
Lila Sugar Harrod
I'm doing a very deep sort of like, desert hot hike right now. I have those moments of gratefulness every single day. In, like, the early hours of the day and in the late hours of the day, the heat of the day, I'm not feeling that grateful when I'm pouring sweat, chugging Gatorade. Not feeling super grateful then. But yeah, every dawn and every death, I'm reaffirmed that I've made the right choice for myself. Now I'm spending my time in a way that my future self will be proud of.
- [00:35]
Justin Yoder
What do you do when you come out as LGBTQ and love the outdoors? What do you do when you see the outdoor space ruled by older white CIS men and desire a diverse community of outdoor lovers? Accept it, change it. Create it. I am Justin Yoder, and this is LGBT Outdoors. Happy Pride Month, everyone. This is Justin. And we're glad you're tuning in for another episode of the LGBT Outdoors podcast. Got my husband, Patrick Thompson with me tonight.
- [01:07]
Patrick Thompson
Hey, everybody. Happy Pride Month.
- [01:10]
Justin Yoder
It's been a busy Pride Month around here, for real.
- [01:15]
Patrick Thompson
And like, and, and like, it's good, it's amazing, it's fantastic, but it's a lot. And I imagine this is the same with any queer, non profit or. Or group out there is they are just busting their butts to be present and get the their name out. As many Pride festivals as possible just in North Texas in the last month so far, we've done 1, 2, 3, 4.
- [01:49]
Justin Yoder
I think more than that, but it.
- [01:52]
Patrick Thompson
Sure feels like it. And you know, I know you're going up to Denver for Pride. I know our team in New Hampshire is tackling a handful of those Pride events and it's fantastic. There's so many people that we talk to and I've been looking for something like this or I've seen you online. What is it exactly that you do? And so I developed this really strong 30 second elevator pitch that it just sort of came out of repeating like the same thing over and over again. And it's so much fun. There's so many, like, colorful, vibrant people out there being authentic in themselves, and it's really like this amazing thing of beauty.
- [02:49]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, totally agree. It is a lot of work and it's kind of. It's not just June, it's like May leading up to it is a lot of work getting all the applications in and signed up and everything like that, and connections and figuring out what banners and supplies needs to go to where and what ambassadors and team members and all of that. Then Running all the boost through June and then following up with everyone and all the contacts through July. But it is, like you said, so worth it and helping get people connected to what we're doing and building this community. So it's awesome and it's worth it. We were just at Fort Worth Pride this past Saturday and had a great time over there and was just amazed at how many people came up to our booth, saw us and was interested in what we were doing and wanted to learn more. So, yeah, continuing to build that community and getting everybody out there in celebrating with Pride Month. I think this just happened as an accident when this all started with the Instagram. But June is our five year anniversary for LGBT outdoors, which is pretty amazing.
- [04:07]
Patrick Thompson
That is. That is wild.
- [04:10]
Justin Yoder
It is. It's been, it's been a roller coaster for sure. And just thinking back on, you know, some of the things that we've done in five years, you know, we've started the Ambassador program and have over 50ambassadors around the country leading local chapter events. We did Outdoor Fest, which we're going to be doing our fifth one this year in Colorado. So if you aren't signed up for that, do, because I think we're getting close to 50% full on that already. Colorado in September 12th through the 15th. Dan Link from Naked and Afraid is going to be there. Brad Ryan from Grandma Joyce Road Trip is going to be there. Amazing instructors and workshops and activities and high ropes course and in the Colorado Rocky Mountains. I mean, what else could you want?
- [05:02]
Patrick Thompson
I can't wait.
- [05:04]
Justin Yoder
We've also got to speak to incredible organizations. The Houston Astros had us go down and share with them about LGBT outdoors. The U.S. federal Trade Commission, just U.S. forest Service, so many cool connections and networking that we've been able to do and bringing education to a lot of these companies and organizations about the importance of inclusion in the outdoors while connecting our community to the outdoors. So it's been an incredible five years. We can't wait to see where we're going to be in another five years. Hopefully we're going to have our own. I'm going to say it on the podcast, but hopefully by then we're going to have our own LGBT outdoors campground or campgrounds. We'll see. But excited on developing that. But yeah, we're. We're going to celebrate Pride. Celebrate Pride. And celebrate our five years by asking people to take a minute and help us continue on with our mission. So if you're listening and you love what we're doing, consider donating to LGBT outdoors this month. And helping us celebrate, whether it's $5, $15, $25, $50, $500, whatever you want to throw at LGBT Outdoors mission with a five in it to help us continue, that would be amazing. And you can do that. Just go to lgbtoutdoors.com, click the donate button and yeah, put in the notes. It's for our five year celebration. And enter what you would like to give and help us with our mission of connecting the LGBTQ community to the outdoors, to each other.
- [06:55]
Patrick Thompson
And like that. That's awesome. And we're just talking about like all the Pride events that we're doing. Like, that stuff is not cheap with like our stickers and our flyers and for everybody who's listening and for everybody who has ever come to one of our events, you either saw us online or somebody told you about it. And that takes, you know, printouts and podcasts and graphic design and all of that stuff to get the word out. So if you are on board with what we're doing, a $5 bill would help us be able to tell somebody else about it and to bring them in and introduce them or encourage them in the outdoor space.
- [07:48]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, absolutely. So something to consider and a great way to support and celebrate Pride Month. So definitely would be awesome. Well, I think we should jump in with our guests today.
- [08:03]
Patrick Thompson
I think we should.
- [08:03]
Justin Yoder
As always, I think that we have an amazing guest that I'm super excited to share with our listeners about. Have an amazing thru hiker that is going to be on today. And even if you people aren't into through hiking or know what even through hiking is, I just think that her story is inspirational and really cool that people can draw things through. So today we have Lila Sugar Harrod is a sober, queer, transgender woman with over 11,000 miles of long distance hiking experience. She is the first transgender woman to complete the triple crown of long distance hiking, including the Appalachian Trail, the Pacific Crest Trail, and the Continental Divide. Lila has set the fastest known times, including the woman's unsupported fastest known times, of New Hampshire's 484000 footers. Lila is also the founder of Trail QTS, a mentoring program for queer and trans. First time through hikers, Lila shares her story as a way to connect with LGBTQ people in the outdoors and to be a resource for cisgender people who are interested in understanding the trans experience. If you'd like to follow her on Instagram, you can at Seltzer Skelter. Welcome to the podcast, Lila.
- [09:22]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Hey, thanks for having me, guys.
- [09:25]
Justin Yoder
Thanks for taking the time to join us. You are very outdoors right now, so to all of our listeners, if this isn't the best quality, in a way, it kind of is just because she's actually on a trail and outdoors right now having a blast. I am glad that we were able to catch her when she had some cell phone reception. But thanks for taking the time for joining us and celebrating Pride Month with us. I think that. Happy Pride. I think this is going to be awesome, and our listeners are going to get a lot out of this. But let's. Let's start off back when you were a kid, however far back you would like to go, and tell us a little bit about who you are, where you grew up, how you grew up. Love for the outdoors came about. We would just love to learn more about you and what led to who you are now.
- [10:19]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Sure. Yeah. Well, so I grew up. I was a 90s kid growing up in the North Shore of Boston in the suburbs. And, yeah, I mean, the community I grew up in, you know, like, things like, like, you know, LGBTQ rights and everything, they weren't really something that was really discussed or even part of the discussion. So I. I mean, I grew up, you know, feeling different than other kids, but it's hard when you don't have, like, the language or know the concepts to really identify with how you're feeling. So as a kid, you know, I felt like I was. You know, I spent a lot of time trying to fit in with. With the other. The other boys. You know, I did a pretty good job. But it's funny, I remember, like, in high school, I remember looking, you know, like, at my. My friends, my. My guy friends, and thinking, like, wow, like, they are so good at, like, acting like guys, you know, like. Because, like, that's my perspective, right? Is like, turns out they weren't acting at all. Like, they were literally just being themselves. And it wasn't this sort of, like, you know, performance that you had to learn and recreate. So that's. That's sort of how I was, like, identifying with masculinity and manhood growing up. And, I mean, you know, throughout my 20s, like, I. I, you know, was. I'd always been doing, like, gender exploration, like, as a kid and, you know, through my 20s and everything, but I still wasn't really aware of the term of even, you know, the idea of being trans or transgender for quite a while. And I was also, like. To compound that I was also in active addiction for a long time. I got sober when I was 30 years old at that point. I had like, just recently, maybe like a year before that even, like, maybe less than a year, even realized that I was transgender. Like, had first said it to myself, you know, like, made that identification for myself. So, yeah, that's 30. So when I, once I got sober, though, that's the, like, that's the first time that I actually had the, like, capacity and then the resources to actually, like, do something about, do something about it and to step into my own authenticity. So once I got sober, like, I feel like my sobriety and my gender transition really go hand in hand. You know, I, I could not have gone through, gone through my transition without my sobriety first. You know, it takes a lot of strength and it takes a lot of, you know, it's, it's not, it's not an easy process. Like, remember, transition is not like a one and done kind of thing. It's an ongoing process that involves legal aspects, medical, social, professional, you know, everything. Yeah, only once, once I got Cambridge, I had that ability. So the first, like two years of my, of my sobriety. I'm sorry, do you want to add something?
- [13:10]
Patrick Thompson
Oh, yeah. I mean, there's, there's so, there's so much to unpack. Like, I'm also in recovery and I'm trying to put together like, the weight and also like, the process and the healing of trying to embrace sobriety and embrace, you know, your authenticity at the same time simultaneously. Like, I, that would have been like, a lot for me to, to personally handle seeing you now, like, out there kicking ass as a success story, not only as a trans person, but also as a person in recovery. Like, I'm, I'm on the floor. I, I, I'm super happy for you because that's, that, that's a big, big thing to, to work on. So that's awesome. Thank you for sharing that.
- [14:04]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, of course. Yeah. That the, the outdoor aspect really sort of kicked in once I did have those two things right. Like, so, I mean, like you said it, it is all just a lot. It's a lot. So those first couple years, like, establishing and becoming more stable in my sobriety and in who I am as a person undergoing my gender transition and all that entails, that really was like, all encompassing those first two years, I'd say. So that was, it was like a full time job on top of my full time job. And so once I had done that, I felt like I finally. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot. So, like, once I came out, I felt like I had sort of Reached a point where I was more comfortable in my sobriety and in who I and who I am authentically. So that all of a sudden now I do have this time and space to step into the outdoors in a way that I'd always wanted to. So you asked about like, you know, my connection to the outdoors. I wasn't brought up hiking as a kid. I went on like a couple. I think I went on one backpacking trip and a couple day hikes. But really that wasn't really a big part of my story. I was like a team sports kind of thing. My, my dad had always sort of pushed me into team stuff. And once I got in my, like, early 20s, I'd moved to Seattle and I had a friend who sort of took me out and showed me the ropes and let me, lent me gear and all that stuff. And I really fell in love with backpacking at that point out in the Northern Cascade in the Oly. So then when I moved back to the east coast a couple years later, I was sort of like just ready, like ready and ready to go. Like I had that sort of fire lit in me to spend time in the outdoors. But so then, you know, like, there's only so much you can do when you're in active addiction when it comes to the outdoors. Sorry, there's some wind blowing here. So I had always wanted to do like larger, bigger, longer trips. But you know, there's a, there's only so far you can go when you can't be that far away from a bar or a liquor store. You know, just like physically your, you know, your capacity and your resources are lowered. Like the financial burden of being an active addiction is really heavy. So all those things sort of kept me from doing the types of things that I felt like I wanted to do, but I couldn't imagine a world in which it was possible. And so once I did get sober, once I did establish that, you know, that stability after those first couple years doing something like the Appalachian Trail seemed like a perfect way to sort of celebrate this new, this newfound authenticity and, you know, healthiness that I had, you know, like a well rounded life. So I wanted to, yeah, I wanted to celebrate and I wanted to do something big, you know, because I sort of figured this out and I wanted a big change in my life. And what better way than to sort of like close down, you know, shut down your whole sort of, you know, quote unquote normal life and cash out your chips and get rid of your furniture, sell the car and just get outside in a way that I had always dreamed of doing. And I found that once I got out there, I was maybe I started. I started the Appalachian Trail in 2021. That was my first through hike. And I was maybe six weeks into that first through hike. And I just, like, I remember having a moment where I was just like, this is for me, this is my thing, you know, Like, I. I feel so fulfilled and so right out here that I need to start reprioritizing things that I value to center around spending more time doing that thing. And it just kind of snowballed from there. And now we're almost four, you know, going on four years. This is my fourth year of sort of like full time, you know, dirt bagging and. And I don't regret a moment of it.
- [17:40]
Patrick Thompson
So that's just to rewind and clarify. Like, your first through hike was the Appalachian Trail, is that right?
- [17:49]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, yeah.
- [17:50]
Patrick Thompson
Like, go big or go home, I guess.
- [17:54]
Justin Yoder
And that was. That was 2021 to re. Emphasize that. So like you were saying four years ago, and you've hiked over over 10,000 miles since 2021, is that. That's right.
- [18:07]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah. I'm more like in the 11s to 12s now.
- [18:11]
Justin Yoder
Nice. And you were the first trans woman to do the Triple crown as well as in that. In case people are listening and they don't know that's the Appalachian Trail, the Pacific Crest Trail, and the Continental Dividend. But you've done obviously more than that now. But you were the first trans woman to be able to complete the three of those. And you've done it all within the last four years.
- [18:34]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, I did. I did one of the triple contrails in 21, 22, and 23. I also worked in other trails before and after each of those hikes too, which is how I've sort of like amassed like a larger amount of miles. But I would also say, like, you know, it could be that other trans women have completed it before, but I like to say the first known trans one, because sometimes people. People aren't out and people aren't as public. Public about their, you know, about their hikes. I just like to say the first openly sort of like, no and trans woman.
- [19:05]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That's amazing. What was it that made you decide that you wanted to do through hikes? Like, I know that you touched on a little bit, and I think that it's amazing. And the health benefits to being outside is incredible, especially coming out of sobriety like you were. But was there. Did you see Somebody else doing it and you're like, oh, that looks interesting. Or was it just this random thing that you were just like, yeah, I want to go on a crazy long hike and, and give it a shot?
- [19:35]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean I always, I. I knew about the concept just from backpacking like in the White Mountains. I had been never seeing some through hikers when I was on Franconia Ridge. You know, some like sweaty, smelly, sort of like feral looking humans sort of like basically what I perceived to be sprinting past me on the trail. I remember thinking they look cool and asking somebody what they were doing. And you know, I was vaguely aware of the Appalachian Trail, but I'd never met a thru hiker knowingly before. But so how I like where I really got dead set on it, I should say is okay, so remember 2020 early pandemic. That first week or two was such a strange time where I don't know how y'all spent it, but I was very much sort of like locked in my home. It almost felt like time stopped for those first few days. You know, day, night, didn't really, didn't really matter. You know, you just sort of glued to you know, like news or whatever it is. And I found that my reprieve during that time was watching. I was on YouTube and somehow I ended up on a like an Appalachian Trail through hiking documentary. I actually think it was my friend Julia, that's Julia Sheehan, she had a really great documentary about the Appalachian Trail. And I just got. And especially at that time where you feel so confined, if anything we all felt kind of. I personally felt a bit imprisoned those first few days. It was scary. So seeing somebody out there and like in nature in the most in depth way, in a way that just like was really appealing to me. And the freedom, you know, when you feel com. Confined, you feel like you don't have freedom. Seeing somebody out there being free is a really huge motivator. So once I, you know, like I saw like one documentary and then next thing you know, God, I pro. I probably watched two or three like in one night, you know what I mean? Like six hours sat there just like eyes glued to my laptop. But yeah, after that I kind of, I kind of walked away just being like, this is it. You know, like I watched some on different trails. I watched one on the Continental Divide Trail and I watched one on the Haduke Trail as well. And those became sort of like the objects of my affection. I really knew that I wanted to do the Continental Divide Trail and the hey Duke. Since they stayed, they created. They were some a form of challenge that I couldn't even comprehend yet at that point in my skillset. Obviously I ended up getting there because I've hiked both of those now, but, but those were like a big deal to me early on.
- [21:59]
Patrick Thompson
So much to unpack and I, I'm so excited to get to talk with you because yeah, there's so many questions, like most people don't really have either the, the means or the, the gusto and bravado to take on like a massive through hike. Like you know, any of them that you just imagined or you just mentioned, because Appalachian Trail, on average, how long does that take to, to complete? If you were to go straight through, what is it, like six months?
- [22:35]
Lila Sugar Harrod
I would say like average time is, is four to, four to six months would be considered like, you know, within the realm of normal.
- [22:43]
Patrick Thompson
And I can't imagine doing anything on that scale for four to six months and leaving and changed. I feel like having that experience with all the challenges and all the beautiful glory and just this stuff that you're experiencing that is human powered it. Like I feel like that fundamentally alters if not your person, but your perspective on the world. Would you agree?
- [23:14]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Absolutely, I would agree. I would say that, you know, the biggest change I've ever undergone in my life was in that first two years where I got sober and changed my way of thinking through like a program of recovery and then also through stepping into my like, authenticity with my gender identity. That was the biggest sort of sea change I've ever experienced as far as my personal identity. But you're absolutely right that once I began through hiking, I mean every single one of those experiences does, does change who I am. I believe if you talked to me, if I got to talk to myself, you know, back in 2021 or something, I might be surprised at what I thought was possible or what I was capable of or what I, what I believe about people in the world. You know, like, I think that my perspectives on interactions with others has changed. I. Yeah, I think that the things that I value have, have changed and refined even more than after I made that first decision to sort of like break it, break my life down and step out into nature in a more full time capacity. Yeah. Like, yeah, the things that I thought were definitely, that I definitely wanted before I realized that I really reshuffled and reprioritized that. Yeah, I value things a little bit differently now.
- [24:30]
Patrick Thompson
It'd be hard not to. I. As we're listening to you share. Like we can hear birds in the background. That's actual birds. We're not adding sound effects. Like, you know, it'd be hard to not, you know, sit there and have this moment of appreciation. The jealousy is real.
- [24:51]
Lila Sugar Harrod
I have the. You, you know what? You know, I'm, I'm in, I'm. I'm doing a very deep sort of like desert hot hike right now. So what I'll say is I, I have those moments of gratefulness every single day. In the early morning, in like the early hours of the day and in the late hours of the day, the heat of the day. I'm not feeling that grateful when I'm just pouring sweat, chugging Gatorade. Not feeling super grateful then. But yeah, every dawn and every desk, absolutely. I'm reaffirmed that I've made the right choice for myself. Now I'm spending my time in a way that my future self will be proud of.
- [25:28]
Justin Yoder
That's awesome. You mentioned that it's hot during the day right now. Can we talk a little bit about what you're doing right now? Because you're doing the Divide to Crest route. And can you share about that and what it is that you're doing? Actually, yeah.
- [25:45]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Thanks. So the Divide to Crest route is a route that I dreamed up this past winter when I was locked in my home. I was sort of dreaming and I was at a point where after getting off the Continental Divide trail this past year, I felt like I had sort of completed my original set of objectives with the things that I wanted to get out of it, you know, because remember I said I really wanted to do the Hayduke and the Continental Divide Trail. Those were my kind of big two. So after I'd done those, I was like, okay, well what's going to feel fulfilling for me moving forward? The only way that I would be comfortable continuing to live as a sort of a, you know, full time through hiker would be is if I took on a project that I felt deeply, deeply, you know, like motivated by and something that I felt like I really had to do. And I spent a lot of time thinking about a lot of pre existing trails. You know, the Pacific Northwest Trail was one, was one that came up for me for sure. There's a few desert trails that I wanted to do, the Oregon Desert Trail and the Bogey and Rim Trail. You know, I like the idea of doing the desert trails, but they're both kind of short. And I started sort of like placing them on a map and then looking what was in between and seeing, you know, playing around with different ways that I could connect those two objectives that I had. And I realized it was actually, they were really well placed because I was able to string together a bunch of, like, using some trails and routes that I had already completed, I was able to go through and hit on a couple of my favorite spots from those trails that I had done, while also taking myself on these new. On these new routes that have been calling to me and offering me the additional checks challenge of needing to connect those roots by creating my own roots, you know, So I created these theoretical routes on Gaia over the winter to connect all, to connect everything together. And obviously, now that I'm out here, I'm finding that theory and practice are two very different things. And I'm making all sorts of adjustments. But a lot of private property out here that is not listed as private on the. On the map. But it just provides a whole new set of challenges for me. You know, it's so much different to do something than what people perceive as, like, a traditional trail, like the Appalachian Trail or something, where there's, you know, blazes to follow, there's preexisting maps. There's so much information about the resources available on the trail. But what about when, you know, you're creating your own route and you see a spring marked on the map? Well, it's the middle of June in Nevada. Are we sure that that spring is going to be working? Sorry, not working. Is it going to be flowing? Is there definitely going to be water there? Like, I had that problem yesterday where I, you know, I was really looking forward to a spring. I was running low on water, and like I said, it was about 100 degrees and fully exposed, and the spring did not exist. It was just dried up. You know, thankfully, I had. I had held a little bit of water in reserve, which I always do to make sure that if I do need to, I can get to another source safely. But, yeah, it's not a very comfortable thing when you're running low on water and it's hot in the middle of the day in the desert.
- [28:50]
Justin Yoder
You mentioned this a little bit, and I was curious about it. But, like, I was wondering how much of this is public land versus private land, and then how do you navigate it when it comes to public or private land? Like, are you in communication with the landowners and trying to get permission that you can do this? And like, it seems like a huge undertaking. Like, it. It sounds like at the beginning it's pretty simple, you know, you're just connecting these two trails and, and the way you go, you know. But like, obviously when it comes to the logistics of it, it's a whole nother thing. So how does that work? Private land versus public land and navigate, especially when you're not expecting it because of what it says on your map?
- [29:32]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, that's a really good question and one that I deal with all the time. The quick answer is that I only use public land whenever possible. I have run into. There was one situation where I was leaving Sedona, heading towards Flagstaff and creating a route of my own. And I ended up at a, like a gated community kind of thing. And I was looking at the map, you know, I sort of backed myself into a corner where really the only thing I was able to do was to sort of like skirt through it real quick. You know, I just went as fast as I could. But that's not something that. Like that. That was. If there had been another way around, then that's what I would have done. And so what I do is I keep notes about, about where I'm going and what was private and if there's any alternatives that I can suggest to people moving forward. So what I'll do is after I'm done with this route, I'll go back and adjust my map set so that I can share it with people in the future. I know that the way I went what, you know, ended up being private. So I need to create an alternative that I'm sure is public for people. And if people do want to recreate what I'm doing. But that was the only time like I. There's been plenty of other times when I run into private land, but I'm usually not as backed into a corner. I'll just find another way around. Right. Even if I have to bow out around and do some extra miles or something, I'll pretty much always do my best to. To avoid going on private land. That was just that one, one thing where I really didn't have any other option. Of course I want to be respectful of private land whenever possible.
- [31:08]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk. Well, let me. I should have said this at the beginning for. Because we have a wide variety of people that listen to our podcast. So if you're not familiar, you know, we mentioned doing throw hikes, which is the majority of what you do. So on a thru hike, you start at one spot and end up in a totally different spot. So you're hiking all the way through. It's not like you go in and you come back out to the same spot that you started. So with, with all of that in mind and you're hiking thousands of miles, can you. I know that it's. You could do a whole podcast on just your pack probably, but can you talk about the, the key essentials, what it looks like, starting to put together the, the key equipment and supplies that you need, how it works, picking up food. And I'm curious too about like the weight of your bag because obviously you want to cut that down and like every ounce counts whenever you're trying to do that and considering what you're taking with you.
- [32:05]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Mm. Yeah. So as far as the sort of essentials in my pack, people usually talk about the big three, right? Like your sleep system, your shelter and your. Packed my bag. I carry a 35 liter deuter air Contact Ultra. Yeah, it's. I pretty. I always, I always use deuter packs. 35 liters is a really good size for me, especially like in the desert where I'm not going to be carrying like big heavy clothes or I'm not going to need a ton of technical equipment. Um, that's my, that's my pack, my sleep system. I use a Katabatic Flex 22 degree, which is getting a little bit warm at this point. But sometimes, you know, it does get cold out in the desert. But yeah, I've been pretty much comfortable in that so far. Um, and then I just use like for a sleep pad, I just use like a. There's a little 8th inch thin light gossamer gear pad. I lay that down and then there's a Nemo switchback which is, you know, that orange folding sleep pad that people might recognize. I found a half of one of those in a hiker box on the CDT and I've been carrying that as well. That's my like, like little extra. Be extra comfy and have like, you know, some, you know, eggshell padding underneath my shoulder so I don't wake up with sores on my shoulder. But I used to just use the thin, light, just the 8th inch pad and people thought I was a lunatic for that. I can do some. And then, and then my shelter, my shelter, I use a Z Packs Plex Solo, which is a single trekking pole tent that locks in really light. Yeah, I found it really sturdy and held up to a lot of pretty strong winds and everything too. So yeah, I'm pretty dialed in with my, with my, my big three there. I mean you have to imagine at this point like I don't Even really think about my gear anymore because it's, it's, you know, they're an extension of me. I, I've been carrying a lot of the same exact stuff for a. So it's not that hard for me to pack for a trip or for a through hike because it's already, it's already ready to go. It's already in my head. I have like a gear list that I can scroll through and take. Plug things out whenever I need to. So. Wait. Okay, so that was the big three. What else were you asking? Oh, the pack weight. Right.
- [34:19]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, I was curious about what it weighs and then also like how you navigate your food if you do food pickups in towns as you're going through. Curious about water too because you were talking about the springs, which I know a lot of the through hikers purify water as they're going, which I imagine you would have to. But just love to hear kind of some of that and how you prepare for that.
- [34:40]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Sure. So pack weight. I think I started this trip at about 12 pounds for my base weight. I'm probably down to around 10 pounds now just with, you know, like I got rid of. I had a, like a mid layer fleet that I, that, that I don't need anymore. It's too warm. Yeah. And there's some other things I've pared down throughout my time, but. Yeah, so somewhere in the 10 to 12 range is usually where I float. Um, and then as far as resupplies, I. Well I. Every once in a while like a friend will send me a care package or something to a town that's usually just for like treats and stuff. Like my, my friend sent me a bunch of whoopie pies if you know what those are. Yeah, those are like my favorite and I miss them because you can't get them out west. So you know, stuff like that. But my recent like my actual food I tend to get at just little towns like a gas station, Dollar General if you're lucky, a you know, an actual grocery store. But yeah, it's all just sort of like pre prepared food. I cold soak, meaning I don't have a stove. I only quote unquote, cook things that can just rehydrate on their own. So like one of my like primary staples would be instant, instant rice, like minute rice. I find that that rehydrates really well and that I can combine a lot of different ingredients with it and get something that I'm happy with. I carry a lot of tortillas. You know, peanut butter. I'm drinking a lot of honey right now. You know, my diet is not healthy by any means. Oh, a lot of like prepackaged meat. Meats like, you know, tuna or chicken or whatever. It is High insult actually. This is like, this is a new one for me. Do y'all, have y'all ever had pork rinds before?
- [36:21]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, I haven't had them, but I know what they are.
- [36:24]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, you know what they are, right? I had never really messed with them before because they like kind of conceptually gross me out, I guess. But I, I like on a whim, randomly tried them this past winter and was like, these actually taste really good. They're just like really salty bacon, crunchy chips sort of thing. And I looked at the like the macronutrients in it and it's incredibly high in protein. I, I'm not recommending this for like, you know, people on like a nice backpacking trip, but, but if you do just sort of need something that's affordable, salty, high in protein, weighs very little. Pork rinds are actually an amazing, amazing long distance backpacking food. But they're, they're really cheap and like for one bag or so, there's almost 50, 50 grams of protein for 4 ounces of weight, which might not matter to most people, but to me that, that's pretty cool.
- [37:20]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, that's awesome. Then how do you handle your, your water situation? Because especially when it's hot like where you are right now.
- [37:28]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, I carry a lot of water, so I have, I have capacity for 5 liters right now. I've gone up to 6 in some. If I came across a really hot section, I would just, you know, literally walk with a jug of water if I had to, if it couldn't really fit into my pack comfortably anymore. But basically when you have a chance to, to stock up on water, you do. Like if you, if you find a spring, I'm going to hang out there, I'm going to drink a linger just while I'm there and then I'm gonna carry out as much as I can. You know, if I know that I have like a guaranteed water source, like something that I know is a perennial water source, like a well established creek or river or something like that, then I might not need to carry as much sort of like security water, you know, like an extra liter or two, because I can be sure that that water will be there. But if not, I will, you know, like carry an extra like liter or two so I can make sure I can get to the Next source. And then when I get to the water, I carry a Sawyer water filter. You know, that's like the, you know. Yes. On the sawyer squeeze water filter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I just use one of those, which requires pretty frequent back flushing when the. When the water is like a cowbond or something like that. But I find it to be really effective. And for this, for this one, for this trail specifically, with the water being what it is and having such unknowns. I'm also carrying a dropper of bleach because that can be used for emergency purification as well.
- [38:59]
Justin Yoder
Really? That's a new one for me. I haven't heard about using. Using the bleach. Is that. Is that a recommended source and is it recommended?
- [39:11]
Lila Sugar Harrod
I mean, I'm not a doctor, y'all, but I guess it's better than the alternative. Yeah. Like, I'll tell you a situation that I would use it in. Right? Like, so basically, if you put in two droplets of bleach into a liter of water and I think it's wait like half an hour or something like that, then it will purify it to a point where it's safe to drink. You know, a tiny little bit of bleach now and then isn't going to be a problem. But it would be useful for me if I imagine if I, like, hadn't seen water for a long time, I needed water, but the only water I came across that happened to me in Arizona, like, has a dead animal in it. Right? Like, what if there's like a dead bird or something? That's what it was. It was a dead bird. So if you need to take that water, well, I'll try and put it through the filter. Ideally it go. It goes through the filter. But at that point, if I know that there's something like really nasty in there, I'll probably throw some droplets of bleach in it too, just to make sure it's super duper rare. But in this case, where it is so, like, you know, hydration is a life or death issue for me that then I want to make sure I have at least something sort of like a backup that I could use if I. If I needed to. So I'm not reliant in case I did like, lose my Sawyer or it broke somehow.
- [40:27]
Justin Yoder
Yeah, no, that makes sense. I. That's a new one for me, but. But it makes perfect sense. Take your indoors, outdoors or spacious skies camp Campgrounds. A collection of 15 campgrounds and RV parks spanning the eastern United States. Each location is Unique, but all offer the perfect escape to the great outdoors. If you're looking to spend quality time with your friends and family or simply need a scenic home base for your nearby adventures, choose from RV sites, cabins, yurts, retro RV rentals or tent sites and enjoy on site amenities that offer convenience, creature comfort and fun. Visit spaciousskiescampgrounds.com for more information and easy online booking. We welcome and invite all campers to camp on the spacious skies Campgrounds. This episode of the LGBT Outdoors Podcast is brought to you by the Monterey Bay Aquarium, where you can experience the wonder beneath the waves and celebrate your connection to the ocean. Join Monterey Bay Aquarium and advocating for a healthy ocean. Together we can tackle climate change and stop plastic pollutions at the source. Sign up for the Ocean Action email to learn how you can protect the oceans that connect us all@montereybayaquarium.org ACT.
- [41:50]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Do.
- [41:50]
Justin Yoder
You have anything that you carry with you that are maybe more on the comfort side that you specifically enjoy taking with you? That maybe isn't necessarily a key, beneficial thing, but it's like this item or two items I like, really like to have with me.
- [42:08]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, it sort of depends on the through hike and everything. One that I'm carrying right now is black nail polish. You know, I think that that's like, okay, this is actually kind of relevant, you know, especially with pride month and everything. Like, I think that comes when I think about, like, the outdoors and gender presentation in the outdoors. We're so much taught by the, you know, sort of mainstream culture that outdoor clothing is androgynous, that presentation and femininity should be downplayed in the outdoors. Think about it, like, if you, you know, like the girls, like, you know, if a woman has a bunch of makeup on or something that she's in the outdoors, people might even sort of look at her funny, right? Or be like, well, why does she care about what she looks like? Or something like that, right? Like, that's not how I feel about it. I feel that, like, gender presentation and authenticity doesn't care if I'm, if I'm in the woods or not. Like, and granted, like, you could say it's a, it's a practical matter or something like that. But I mean, this does not keep, you know, having black nail polish on does not keep me from performing or doing anything in any way that I like that I want. And that's kind of how people, you know, like, it's all just sort of like made up with these, like, you know, sort of like fake rules about what you should or shouldn't be able to do. If you want to look cute in the outdoors. If you want to look stem in the outdoors, do it right. Like, I, you know, it'd be one thing if I was just going out for one for a single overnight or something like that, and I, you know, I just didn't really care or whatever. But when I'm spending months out here, like, a big portion of my life for the past few years I spent backpacking, am I supposed to bottle myself up and downplay my own authenticity and my own gender presentation? You know, just because of what, you know, outdoor culture says? Like, no way. Like, I live out here. Like, I'm going to be myself even when I'm out here. Yeah.
- [43:54]
Justin Yoder
So.
- [43:55]
Lila Sugar Harrod
And then I guess it went extension. We talked about. Yeah, like, we talked about the black nail polish. Sometimes I'll also carry a spare bottle of purple hair dye, too. Yeah, it's right. You know, it keeps my hair. Hair colored. Right. Like, when I get into cities, I'll. I'll use, like, more permanent hair dye or something. But you buy this. Like, if I find a Dollar General, they might have some purple hair dye that I'll throw in my hair just to, you know, so I'm feeling my best.
- [44:22]
Justin Yoder
Yeah.
- [44:23]
Patrick Thompson
I mean, why not?
- [44:26]
Lila Sugar Harrod
You know, that's what I'm saying.
- [44:27]
Patrick Thompson
And, like, it's. Yeah. I think that you're out there exploring, putting your. Your physical self and your mental self, like, to the test. But when you were starting to get into all this and kind of maybe planning for your first through hike, I came across a quote from Backpacker magazine that you said in your research. You said, I wanted to make sure that there was a search result for trans women in the outdoors. And that really hit me because there's obviously not a whole lot of people out there, or there would have been plenty of resources available. That's kind of what we're trying to do as LGBT outdoors is just to provide a voice, to provide a face and some humanity to, like, who we are in the outdoor space. And so, like, you've kind of taken on, I don't want to say like, an activism role, but to a degree, you know, kind of kind of being willing to step up and take up space as Lila in the outdoors. How has all of that been? Have you butted heads with people? Have you been warmly received? You know, what's that adventure been like?
- [45:45]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, you know, related to the wanting to be a search result. Yeah, that. That was my, you know, that was my experience that When I was researching the Appalachian Trail, I couldn't really find resources or any. Any anecdotal experience of trans people, especially trans women in the outdoors, doing through hikes. There was a couple, you know, related to hiking, but not really through hiking in the way that I was looking for as far as. So from there I started sort of like writing. I was writing for an outdoor website called the Trek when I first started, and I wrote a little bit about my experience as a trans person, the outdoors. I'll say that the friction that I, that I see is primarily when in the online sphere, right? Like on social media, in the comments section, the blog posts or websites, like, that's where I see the most sort of like hate.
- [46:31]
Justin Yoder
When they can hide behind the screen.
- [46:33]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, when they can hide behind the screen or they say something transphobic or message me directly or comment on one of my posts. Like, yeah, online. That will happen occasionally. In person. It happens very, very rarely. You know, at least as far as direct, you know, direct transphobia. I've generally found that, that people will treat you like a human being when that once they are able to humanize you and have that face to face interaction. So somebody who maybe, you know, in their mind, they, you know, they hate trans people. They. They think that I'm a groomer or a pedophile, whatever it is, but like, once they meet me and realize I'm actually just sort of like a normal person that they can talk to and maybe, you know, maybe they even see, you know, a friend or a family member, like in me, you know, they can recognize that, you know, like, I'm just like someone else they know then it's easier for people to humanize me and to treat me like as an equal. And I think that the also. And yeah, go ahead.
- [47:30]
Patrick Thompson
I would hope that that would be the case. Like running into you literally on a trail, like, I'm going to recognize any human as, oh my gosh, they're a badass. Because like, you know, this is not something easy that we're doing. Like, this is, this is pretty out there. This is like an audacious act to put yourself to the test and instantly, like, unless you're a total dick, like, you're gonna have such mad respect from me to anybody that I would come across on a trail I. Easy, hands down.
- [48:09]
Lila Sugar Harrod
That's a good way to put it. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And you know, like, I think the one. What I can say is that, you know, we were talking about direct transphobia and Sort of like the negative interactions that you could have. I would say what I. What I can't speak to, though, is imagine if you and I were both hiking, say, the Appalachian Trail. If you walk into a hostel dressed the same as I do, you know, like, if you and I both individually, separately walk into a hostel or a business or restaurant, whatever it is you were experiencing, the way that you're treated. I. I'll never know if I'm actually being discriminated against or if somebody's being, you know, like, being ruder to me than they would have been to somebody else. Right. Like, you can't necessarily know because I can't see through their eyes. For both interactions, you know, like you walking into someplace that is, you know, dominated by cisgender, heterosexual white men or whatever it is, or, you know, like that type of space, you know, like, you might be received differently than I would be received, but in general, I wouldn't necessarily know that. So, you know, you don't really know when you're being discriminated. Again, that's sort of the confusing part. But like I said, my interactions on the whole, on an interpersonal level are very positive.
- [49:19]
Patrick Thompson
I love that. So I have another question that I'd love to get your opinion on. Brew hiking. Is that a solo or team sport?
- [49:31]
Lila Sugar Harrod
That's a. But I don't. I don't know. I mean, both. It depends. You know, it's a. It's a solo sport for me right now. But, you know, you also sort of, like, you know, rely on. On the help of others sometimes. You know, like, I've stayed with friends along the way and everything, so, you know, you might have support people who are supporting you in that way, but you could also call it a team. Team effort. You know, I've also hiked with Tramleys before, and I really love that experience, too, where you all are sort of pitching in and coming up with a joint plan and working together to, you know, to. To meet those, you know, like, logistical objectives that come up and through hiking. It's whatever you want it to be. Really nice.
- [50:11]
Justin Yoder
All right.
- [50:11]
Patrick Thompson
And the reason I ask is because, like, I've heard stories of, like, pretty intense, very strong and powerful community that kind of envelopes around, especially, like, Appalachian Trail people who have hiked it. And I also understand that there's trail names, which I understand that you have one, and I would love to know, like, how all that works and maybe like, the origin behind your trail name.
- [50:41]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, my trail name is Sugar. And it's just because Like I eat like crap. Like I have a gross diet. A lot of sugar on the trail. Yeah y'all, I'm eating pork rind, sour gummy worms out there. I'm telling you.
- [50:58]
Patrick Thompson
How do trail names work? Can you do you know like any of the history of that?
- [51:04]
Lila Sugar Harrod
I don't know like where it came from necessarily. I'm assuming it probably originated on the Appalachian Trail just because there's so much culture around, industry around it and the Appalachian Trail. Um, but yeah, I mean usually it's. If somebody does, you do something dumb or you end up getting known for something like, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't take much out there to get to get thrown a trail name. Yeah, I would say like one important thing, if you're thinking about through hiking, it's sort of like, like if somebody gives you like a nickname or something like that, you don't literally have to accept it. Okay, so somebody, if you're on your first through hike and someone tries to give you like you know, dumbo as a trail name or something or something much worse, you do not have to accept it. You don't have to take your, whatever somebody like throws at you. You can say yes or no. And yeah, so you totally have agency in what your name is going to be because you know those names stick. So you know, think of it like whatever your trail name is, it's going to be for the rest of your life. And sugar is the one that, that I can deal with because it is a pretty deep truth about myself and, and it's pretty, and I'm pretty cool with that. It's not non offensive.
- [52:13]
Patrick Thompson
Nice.
- [52:14]
Lila Sugar Harrod
I like it.
- [52:14]
Patrick Thompson
Sweet.
- [52:15]
Justin Yoder
That's fun. Can you tell us about the trail cuties that you started?
- [52:22]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, yeah. So sort of like as an extension of that, like not seeing myself, you know, not seeing myself represented in the, in the thru hiking community and the trans through hikers. I, you know, originally I wanted to see search results. You know, once I had gotten a few thru hikes under my belt, I was realizing like I want to help encourage the, you know, queer and trans through hiking community to grow. You know, like we want to be more visible. We just want more of us out there. And you know what would have really helped me in my early days of preparing for a through hike is just somebody to ask some like really, really real questions too that you cannot get information for online. Like how do you take hormone replacement therapy on trail? You know, like what do you do when, when you're misgendered in the back. In the backcountry. Right. Like all these experiences that queer and trans people have that a cisgender person might not have the same reference for. I think that just literally having somebody, a person to ask questions to so you don't have to dig through and determine what is valuable, useful information online and what's, you know, not having a real, a real person to talk to and to know that you're not alone, you know, where it can be kind of isolating before you get on trail. You know, you are sort of removed from the community still. So having somebody who's like a direct connection who can answer those questions for you and to sort of be that almost like ambassador for the through hiking community and make sure that people feel welcome and feel safe and feel prepared for, you know, not just the physical challenges, but also the mental and emotional challenges that go along especially with being a queer and trans through hiker. So anyway, so that, yeah, the, the mentoring program is one that I started. We're in our second year originally. I was the first. I was the only mentor and I took on a bunch of people who were doing. A bunch of them were doing the Pacific Crest Trail. They all finished. And yeah, like I'm really proud of that. And like there are, you know, I stayed with one of them, one of my mentees in Phoenix. They live in Phoenix and I stayed with them a few weeks ago. So not only do you have a mentoring relationship, but I'm also literally creating community for myself. Right. I benefit greatly from this program as well because people become my friends and become people who understand the thru eiching community how I do. Yeah, it makes, it helps grow that, grow that community. And then I'd also say that we're really grateful to have the sponsorship of a bunch of different companies who are willing to, you know, we're all about not only, you know, sort of rolling up that red carpet, reducing the, you know, the anxiety that people might feel and answering questions, but we also want to reduce socioeconomic barriers to entry as well. So companies like Virgin Outdoor, Sawyer, Deuter Therm, A Rest smartwool, we've had a katabatic customer here. We've had a lot of support from companies in the outdoors who are, you know, they've been great and you know, I am grateful for them because a lot of them, you know, they're not asking for much in return. You know how often you don't see very many times where companies are willing to step up and aren't, you know, looking for something in return. And these people have been very flexible about it and they want to respect people's privacy. They just want to support, you know, these through hikers. Yeah. So I'm really grateful to the companies who've donated gear. You know, we have everything donated from packs to clothes, you know, clothing, you know, sleeping bags, you know, socks. Just anything you can imagine has been put forth by these companies. So it definitely goes a long way to giving people high quality gear that they might not have access to otherwise. Wait, sorry. And then.
- [56:00]
Justin Yoder
That's awesome.
- [56:01]
Lila Sugar Harrod
I think what I wanted to say about this year's group is that basically this year it's expanded so it's not just me anymore. Two of my queer through hiker friends have also become mentors as well. So we all have our own mentees that we work with. So we have a, you know, we've more than tripled the size of the program in one year so that we can have further impact. And I think the cool thing about it is, and where I'm hoping to take it in general is that we found that not everybody, you know, like you said at the beginning, not everybody just wants to drop everything and go right for the Appalachian Trail or something like that. Right. A lot of people don't have even like the basic experience yet. So, you know, we've made a lot more space for people who are earlier on in their experience. Maybe they just want to get out there and see if they can do a two or three day backpacking trip or get on into a section of the Appalachian Trail or the Pacific Crest Trail. It doesn't have to be burn your life down and get out there. There's a lot of ways to enjoy long distance trails and the thread community. And it's been cool to see the mission and our mission expand this year.
- [57:05]
Patrick Thompson
So cool.
- [57:06]
Justin Yoder
Love that. That's what we need. We need more representation, more people helping, encourage our community to let them know that they can do this and help blaze a trail for them and to help them to be able to get out there and enjoy the outdoors as well. So absolutely love that and what you're doing. Patrick, do you have, do you have any final questions or thoughts as we start to wrap up?
- [57:30]
Patrick Thompson
You know, well, there's one that I tend to ask a lot of our guests. You've, you've walked many, many thousands of miles or hiked. I know that's different than walking. Is there like a perfect, beautiful, awe inspiring moment or, you know, you come across this, the crest of a hill and there's like this gorgeous sunset or something that is like absolutely magical and it taps you on your heart and it says, like, heck yes, this is where you're supposed to be. Keep on going.
- [58:08]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah, I've definitely had a bunch of those moments. You know, it'd be hard to continue doing it if I wasn't, you know, feeling, feeling that still. A moment that's coming to mind is when I was hiking the Hayduke route in 2022, I was in the Grand Canyon. But the Grand Canyon is a vast, vast, massive, massive place that you could never see all of most people just see the main corridor. But the Hayduke takes you down some of the lesser traveled avenues of the Grand Canyon. And there's one place, it's called the Nankweep Ruins or the Nankweek Granaries. And it's not very often visited, but when you get down there, it's at the bottom of the canyon along the color, and there are these, you know, ancient, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years old granaries used by the indigenous people. I think it was like almost 800, 800 years ago. Don't quote me on that, on that number. But they're way high up, high up along the canyon wall. They had created these, you know, sort of like granary caves where they were storing grains. And you know, you have to climb up so high just to even get to them and they put them up that high so that. But, you know, there's different reasons, but so they were hard to get to, easy to defend if you had to. There's a few different reasons why you might do that. But when you climb up there, you have this insane view of the Colorado river. And I just remember feeling, you know, at sunset when I was up there and feeling so connected. Not just, you know, feeling connected to all the people who had been there over the centuries before that and all the, you know, like the Grand Canyon is essentially its own little universe down there. It's a place where I find so much connection not only with nature, but with all the people who have come before. And you feel like you can feel the footsteps that you're walking on are ones that have been tread many, many times before. And so, yeah, it just brings me a big sense of peace and connection.
- [60:07]
Justin Yoder
That's amazing. Love it, love it, love it. Do you, as, as we're wrapping up, do you have any final thoughts or words of encouragement or anything that you would like to with with our listeners as we start to wrap up this podcast and let you get back out on the trail.
- [60:25]
Lila Sugar Harrod
Yeah. I think, you know, what I, what I want people to know is that, you know, I want people to be able to reach out to me. I'm very accessible, especially, like, on Instagram. If you are, if you're a queer trans person and the outdoors and you're interested in hiking, you have questions, you have concerns, or if you just want to know somebody else who's out there doing this kind of stuff, you know, shoot me a message. I, I, I hope that I can be a resource for people, not just, like, from a, you know, mentoring program standpoint. You know, like I said, I, I also do this stuff because it benefits me. It allows me to feel more connection within the queer and trans community. Yeah. Like, I like making new friends, and I, you know, I get so much out of it as well, so I do hope that people feel comfortable reaching out to me.
- [61:17]
Justin Yoder
Love that. And how can people find you? What Social media website, Anything that you'd like to share. And we'll put this in the show notes so that people can find it as well. But where can, where can people connect with you?
- [61:31]
Lila Sugar Harrod
So Instagram is the best way. My Instagram handle is Seltzer Skelter. So, like, Seltzer, like the drink and then Skelter, like Helter Skelter. And that's the best way. And then I also have a YouTube that I really haven't. I have so much footage that I, I just don't have time or the Internet connection to go through and post all of it right now. But I will, after my hike's over, I'll go through and post videos, and my username for that is sugar hikes 726.
- [62:01]
Patrick Thompson
Awesome. So I, I will make sure to put her Instagram handle, and she's got an. An epic link tree as well, with all sorts of, you know, interviews and maps and profiles and, like, just all the stuff that I think would just start to scratch the surface of all of Isla's amazing adventures. But, yeah, that'll be down in the show notes.
- [62:26]
Justin Yoder
Yeah. Lila, thank you so much for taking the time out to join us to celebrate Pride Month, to celebrate hikers being different, getting out there, being an inspiration to our community for sure. So we have genuinely appreciated you being on our podcast, and hopefully we can run into you someday out on the trail.
- [62:51]
Lila Sugar Harrod
I would love that. Yeah. Thank you both for having me on. It's been really fun.
- [62:54]
Justin Yoder
Absolutely. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in for another episode of the LGBT Outdoors podcast. We hope that everybody is having a great, A safe and amazing Pride Month. And until next time, get out there. Thank you again for joining us this week. If you have a campfire conversation story you would like to share, please email it to us at infogbtoutdoors.com follow us on Instagram @lgbtoutdoors and join the community at facebook.com groups lgbtoutdoors become a partner by joining our Patreon, where you'll gain access to monthly bonus stories and exclusive content. For more information on today's episode, check out the Show Notes. For information about LGBT Outdoors, LGBT Outdoor Fest, local chapters, or to sign up for our newsletter, visit LGBT outdoors.com and if you're enjoying the show, please rate, review and follow. Wherever you listen to podcasts.