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- [00:08]
A
Welcome to Line of Work, a show about people who actually like their jobs. I'm your host, Sarah Olson, and each week I interview a notable professional from a different industry. Together, we deep dive into their professional journey, the decisions behind it, and what keeps them excited to go to work every single day. Look, the world and the job market has turned upside down this year, and if you're like me, you might be feeling a little lost. If so, listen, on Line of Work is here to explore just how many paths there are to finding fulfillment in what you do for a living. In this episode, I'm joined by Bea Pagels Miner, a thought leader on product and culture development within technology companies. We talk about their experience graduating into a recession, which is very topical right now, why they chose to return to school multiple times, and what they love most about product management. I had a wonderful time talking with Bea and I can't wait to share with you guys. So let's dive in. Hey, Bea, thanks so much for coming on the show. Could you take a quick moment to introduce yourself and explain a little bit about what you do for a living as of right now?
- [01:15]
B
Yes. So I'm Bea Pagels Minor. So a few important facts about me. So first and foremost, I identify as trans, non, binary lesbian, which means my pronouns are they, them there. I am a proud Northwestern Wildcat alum. I promote them all the time. I've been married to my wife for five years, and even though I now live in the Bay Area, hence my background, I actually am originally from the Mississippi Tennessee area. So I consider myself a Southerner through and through. Now, in terms of what I do for a living. So I am a senior data product manager for a large media tech company. And so what's really interesting about that is I kind of feel like there's. I have to give two definitions when I say this is what I am, right? Because there's one definition which is like, what is a product manager? And so one easy way to think about a product manager is that we generally own some kind of book of business for a company. And so that book of business can look like. Let's say if I was working for Apple, I could be the person who manages the iPhone and kind of makes a decision on what buttons or what features the iPhone should have. In the case of what my current company does, I'm actually a data product manager. And what that means is I own a lot of the internal data systems that we actually produce. And so those systems can be anything from a team that a planning team uses or it could be something that our CFO uses to report data to Wall Street. So it's very complex in that sense.
- [02:38]
A
I'm curious how you sort of got your start in the world of product management and what initially drew you to it.
- [02:45]
B
Yeah, it's really interesting. So one thing to note about me is that I graduated in 2008, and so 2008 was kind of the last economic downturn before we. Before COVID Right, right. And so I actually started off, like a lot of graduates from my college, you know, going into management consulting, and actually lost my job as a management consultant. They just, you know, kind of were just like three months into it. They were just like, peace, we don't have any business. You can go home now.
- [03:08]
A
I feel like. Right now. Yeah, tons. I feel like.
- [03:11]
B
Exactly.
- [03:12]
A
Management consultants are going through a similar thing right now.
- [03:14]
B
Exactly. So, like a. If you're going through that, there's sunshine on the other side of the tunnel at some point. And actually, what I actually end up doing is I end up doing a lot of ad hoc work. I was the barista T bomb. Like, you know, my matcha mocha, like, tea was, like, the best. I also saw it. I was doing, like, handyman. Like, I was doing everything. And then I finally got a job at Target as a store manager. And it's actually really funny because my store manager was like, you're actually really bad at this. And I was just like, I agree. Because, like, you know, when you're like a young graduate going out into the workforce, especially that type of workforce where you're dealing with, like, very diverse people who have very different backgrounds. Right. Like, so, for instance, you know, I'm gone. I just gone from this, like, Ivy League type education where I was with a whole bunch of snobby people who. Exactly. And then I went to these folks who were just like, you know, this $12 an hour is changing my family's life. Right. And so, like, I had to learn a lot from that. But also, what was really great about doing that work is that a. I found out I was a good people manager, but I wasn't. You know, obviously my passion was in retail management. And between my co. My team members, and my, you know, manager, they're like, well, the thing that you seem to be most moved by is technology. Like, that's all you talk about. Like, you want to hang out in electronic section. Like, why don't you figure out how to go do. And there's like, there's a local university in Chicago called Robert Morris University. So I was like just Googling like master's programs because also my student loans were coming up soon. So I was just like, okay, so everyone's telling me that like, I should go do this other thing, plus I'm going to have to pay this bill and I really can't afford it. What should I do? And so Robert Morris had this really great, like dual program where if you, like, if you did their Master of Information Systems, so it's basically managing technology teams degree, they would put you through that program and then there was like this really special scholarship, so it was basically free. And then you'd only have to take like six more classes to get your mba. And I was like, wait, this is like the best deal ever. And it locks down my student loans for three years. So like, no matter what, I'm winning in this situation. But it was actually through that program, one of their requirements is that you actually had to go out and interview and actually try to figure out what you want to do in technology, which A plus. Right. Like most programs just like, you go there, you like, get the education, but they don't force you into actually kind of defining what you want to do. Right. And so it was really great for them to like require that of me because at my very first job fair, I met this company called Shareasale. And it was just so funny because this startup, I honestly had no idea what they did. It was like performance marketing, which is essentially, you know, you know, you as a podcaster might have a website and you might put a merchant's link on your website and you know, recommend to your, you know, to the people who listens to click that link to buy that item. Right. And so that's what we actually did. So our whole system was just monitoring those relationships and paying out on those transactions.
- [06:08]
A
Oh, cool.
- [06:09]
B
So it was a really very interesting business. And what was really great about it is that, you know, I started off in, you know, very low level customer service. So like literally people calling in saying, you know, how do I control? Like, how do I copy a link? Like, because we would say you have to copy a link. And so I had to explain to people how to do Control C or Command C depending on which computer they had. And also didn't like really blow their minds and say you can also do Control V to paste it.
- [06:35]
A
Yeah, not everyone is a technology native.
- [06:37]
B
Exactly, exactly. But what's really great about that work is that the owner of the company was just like, well, all of you are hearing all this information constantly about what People like and don't, like, like, if you start putting that together, like, we'll create like an FAQ section and then maybe like, if you guys come up with really great ideas, we'll build that. And so that's really where product management came from, is that, like, I started looking at what we were doing, like when we were collecting that information. And, you know, this is, you know, user information. And in some senses, even like, you know, if my, my CEO said, you know, ask people if they would like this thing, then we were doing like a version of user surveys. And so as I started doing more and more of this work and getting more interested in it, I started doing a lot of research on it. And so then I found books like, you know, how to scrum and like, a lot of, like, really, you know, big product minds who had all this information just available. And I was just like, you know, I want to be a product manager. And so that was like 2012. I was just like, you know, it's been four years of me kind of going all over the place, getting the right degrees, like, setting myself up for success. But the reality is, is that everything that it says a product manager needs, which is like, someone who like, has a deep interest in technology, someone who has a deep interest in business, someone who has lots of customer empathy, I have all those qualities. These are the things, like, literally every time I open an app or I use a device, I go, this is what I would have done differently. And these are like the actual questions in some of these product books that they've discussed. They were like, if these are the things that then this might be the career for you. And I was like, I check every single box. I don't need an aptitude test. Let me figure out how to do it. And so then I spent, really, I've spent the, you know, every single day since 2012 pretty much working my way, you know, from the traditional business analyst to associate product manager to product manager, senior product manager to now the senior data product manager.
- [08:19]
A
And would you say that you got sort of that first business analyst job directly from Robert Morris? Like, how did that transition go? Because it sounds like you decided when you were there that that's what you wanted to do.
- [08:30]
B
So actually it was from my relationship with shareasale. So with shareasale, I got to do a lot of different work, right?
- [08:34]
A
Oh, that's right.
- [08:35]
B
Starting off in very low level customer support, going to the agency relationship manager and managing pretty much their largest book of clients, and then kind of going to the Pseudo product role by generating information from those clients to actually build, because these are our largest book of business. And so it was very important for me to advocate very loudly for them. And so that became like a huge part of my role was just doing that work. And so one of the clients that I had actually was this company called Acceleration Partners, which, you know, if you don't follow Bob Glazer on LinkedIn and some other places, you're missing out.
- [09:08]
A
Okay, good to know.
- [09:09]
B
Like, I don't really normally like skinny white guys, but like this guy, like he just says like, like Bob will put something out there. And I'm just like, holy crap, that just makes sense. Right? And he's another person I learned a lot about leadership from. But you know, his company needed a business analyst, slash like DBA to run a lot of their reports and they wanted to create this cloud based solution. They just basically were doing performance marketing in a way that no one else was. And so they really wanted who had a lot of technical acumen, but also who understood the industry. So one of the easiest ways to get into product management is to be a subject matter expert on the topic that the person is looking for. Right? So I got to go in there and work with them as a business analyst and get that experience of actually working through the process of working with engineering teams like we. There was an engineering team I managed that was based in Israel where I was like, you know, giving them all the different, you know, user stories and the different examples of what we needed from this, you know, cloud based solution while also working on my technical skills by, you know, doing like these, you know, buildings, my SQL databases, creating these like, you know, sophisticated reports they could provide to clients. And so that was actually what I actually used as a basis when I ended up applying for my next job that was going to be an associate product manager job. I was able to use all of those examples as like, hey, FYI, like I could do all of this because I'm literally doing it. I know it's not the social product manager title that you know, that you guys are going to be hiring me for, but this is really my opportunity to kind of like, you know, leap into that. Because that's one of the key points about product management too. Obviously it's much better now than it was then, but a lot of times you end up doing a version of product management under lots of different titles, right? So business analyst, associate product manager, project manager, program manager. And so you have a lot of responsibilities of product management, but without the title. And so it was so important to me to get to that title and actually really be able to be super successful because I knew, like, you know, product managers also have this ability to have outsized influence on what the company does. And that's something that really drives me. Like, I hate working at companies where I don't really have this opportunity to raise my hand and say, I think we could do this other thing better too. Like, I know this is my area of responsibility, but, like, we could also do this other thing better.
- [11:19]
A
Totally.
- [11:19]
B
And so it was very important to me to get that title and have the ability to be in front of leadership and kind of, you know, encourage them to help build a product and build an environment that I thought would make us all more successful.
- [11:32]
A
Over the course of your career as a product manager, obviously it's different with every product you work on, but how technical would you say your job is versus people focused? Or is it really a 50, 50 mix?
- [11:45]
B
It really, really depends. Right. So like, at my current company, it's much more technical than, let's say, my last company. Right. But the company before that was more technical than this company. Right. So it really just depends. And that's why I say it's so important, especially the product manager. It's really important to get a sense of the team. Right. Because a lot of times, you know, you'll kind of get into the situation where you get the job and you get in there and you're just like, wait, this isn't exactly what I thought it was going to be. And that could be the concept of like, how, like how technical or not technical you have to be or how people oriented or how not people oriented you are. For me, like, I am technical enough that I can get by in pretty much all environments, but really my secret sauce is being a people person. Yeah. I really focus on, like creating like, very collaborative, very successful teams. I try to imbue everyone with kind of like that product acumen and product thinking. Because I do think that if all of us have that certain bit of lens that we put on things, it makes us all more successful in how we think about building something. So, for instance, when I'm working with an engineer, I don't want them just to build the thing that I've told them to build to my specifications. I want to give them all the context of what the user said, why the user said that, because this creates a much more holistic approach. And again, it's going to create a greater ROI for both us and for our end Users, I want to circle
- [13:06]
A
back quickly and touch again on graduating into a recession. What advice might you have for those folks who are graduating this year and maybe next year who are graduating into a really tough market once again, and who maybe have had offers rescinded, have been recently laid off, or there are just no prospects currently?
- [13:30]
B
So I used to say one thing, but then I actually heard Tim Cook talk about the subject. So Tim Cook talked about the fact that he absolutely would never have said that he was going to end up being the CEO of Apple. Like, it's not something that he aspired to be. It's not something that he really even contemplated. Instead, when he was in undergrad and grad school, he just had this intense focus on preparing. He's like, I just wanted to be prepared if opportunity came to me that I could take it. And so he's like, you know, so a lot of times I might take an elective course because it prepared me better. You know, a lot of times I might go to this lecture because it prepared me better. And ultimately, every single opportunity he had in his life, he was able to readily accept it because he was prepared. And so that's what I would suggest is to prepare. And so preparation might look a little confusing when you're 18, 19, 20, 21, 20, 20, 20, like, whatever, and don't
- [14:21]
A
know what you're preparing for.
- [14:22]
B
Right, right. Yeah. So what I like to say is start being curious, right? So start pursuing things that are of interest to you. Even in this, like, Covid time, I started doing a lot more reading on, like, Asian issues. Right. Because there's been a lot of hostility towards Asian folks and Asian American folks. And, like, I just want to be more knowledgeable about what that looks like and where the hostility comes from. You know, I also have started doing a lot more research, just generally about, like, management. Right. Because, you know, I'm finally at my career where it's very clear that, like, I'm going to kind of continue to have to, like, manage more and more people and be, like, much more decisive in my management style. So I'm already going to start preparing for that. Right. So, but let's pretend, like, at the very foundation of your journey, you think, okay, I want, like, you're based in, I don't know, New York, and you're like, I really know that I don't want to work in New York after all this is over. Start researching other areas of the country. You know, start researching, like, what industries might be successful in those areas of the country. So for instance, when I think about Chicago, they have, like, a lot of financial, a lot of automotive, a lot of ed tech type companies. So maybe I would start thinking, okay, well, if I want to move to Chicago, let me start researching those types of industries to see if any of those pique my interest. And if one of those does pique my interest, then let me go deeper and do a deeper dive on that particular industry. Because like I said, one of the key points, especially from product management or really any type of company, is that if you seem to have a greater knowledge or skill in that area, it's going to be much easier for people to believe that you could actually do that work. Right? Also, in this particular time, start trying to figure out how to make connections. And so Issa Rae says this really, really well, because Issa Rae used to talk about people and how they would always, like, try to navigate up. So whenever they would go out, they would be like, I only want to talk to the people who are above me in my career. And Issa, there's like, actually the majority of the people that I've had who've helped me in my career are actually my peers. So actually start figuring out how to create real, deep relationships with your peers and start asking them what they're curious about, what they're thinking about, the types of information they're taking in, because that's going to help pique your curiosity and help you grow in terms of the knowledge and things that are going on. I remember when I in 2008, because all of us were struggling to find jobs, and we all were, like, trying to figure out what was going on. A lot of the stuff we talked about really was about location. We were like, okay, so FYI, like, it looks like this area is already starting to recover. And in that case, it was Chicago in that time, because Chicago didn't really go through the same economic downturn as some other places. And so, like, for instance, my friends were like, don't leave Chicago. Just find a really good job in Chicago. And there's a couple companies that we've heard about. These are companies that are being incubated and things like that. So, for instance, we signed up for, like, Crunchbase. So all of us could, like, we would all be, like, scouring it every day, being like, oh, it looks like this company just got seating. Oh, and this person works here. Like, let's, like, create a relationship. Let's do this thing, like, or whatever. It's all about this crowdsourcing because it also is too immense. So it's really weird is that even though we're saying that this. It feels like there's less opportunities. There actually still are so many opportunities. It's really more about, like, having the right skill set for that opportunity.
- [17:26]
A
Absolutely. And I really resonate with what you said about location, too, because I feel like that's so prevalent given COVID 19 as well. I mean, in some ways, it's not because you can work from wherever and be remote, but in some ways, like, you can't leave where you are, so you better like where you live.
- [17:42]
B
Exactly. Yeah.
- [17:44]
A
So I know you talked about getting your master's and also an mba, and then you also went to law school. It sounds like.
- [17:51]
B
Yeah.
- [17:52]
A
You talked a bit about what went into your decision to go back to school the first time, but I'd love to hear about the second time and any other times you've considered, you know, higher education and what went into that decision.
- [18:05]
B
So from a very young age, I decided I was going to be Claire Huxtable. Right. So I was just like, okay, so Claire has amazing family. Her kids are great. Her husband's cool, and she was an attorney, especially in terms of black culture. And so actually, I'm gonna get on my soapbox for one second because I do think it's very important to talk about this.
- [18:25]
A
Please do. Yeah.
- [18:26]
B
In black culture, they talk about what they consider to be, like, valid jobs or careers. So, like, for instance, like, it was like, be a lawyer, be a doctor, being a service person, like, you know, in the military or the police or fire department or a government job or all things that made sense. And so it was very easy to try to, like, have this, like, idea of being the model minority and following that path. And my career was, like, going well. Right. But I was just like, you know, I think that what this is really telling me is that I need to go to law school. And so I decided to go to law school. And I was in law school, and it was going well. Like, you know, I was, like, doing my thing. And you know, what I figured out in law school is that it's, like, really boring. Right. And, like, ultimately, like, there's only two areas of law that I was very interested in. So I was interested in intellectual property law, or I was interested in, like, civil rights law because, like, I wanted to change the world. Yeah. And so intellectual property law, I was just like, well, one, I can influence intellectual property from a technology perspective. And two, from a civil rights perspective, I was like, wait, like, I could do a lot of civil Rights work without ever being an attorney. And then at that point, it also was very clear to me that even after 2008 economic downturn, the legal profession had not come back to its same economic opportunity.
- [19:36]
A
Oh. Huh.
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B
And so I did, like, a full, like, pros and cons list.
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A
Love a pros and cons list.
- [19:41]
B
Exactly. And so just when I was like, okay, like, I need to make a decision, I got this, like, amazing job offer that was, like, so much money. And I was just like, well, this is like the final nail in the coffin. Like, I'm literally getting paid a great amount of money. I do not have to continue law school if I don't want to. And fortunately, I got a scholarship to law school, so I really hadn't gone to debt for law school either. So I decided to leave law school because it just. It just didn't make sense. And one of the things that was hard is that, you know, that had been a part of my path, you know, since I was a child. Right. You know, this idea that, like, I was going to go to school, I was going to do everything I was supposed to do, and I was going to go to law school, and I was going to become an attorney, and I was going to be Claire Huxtable. But the reality is that Claire, like, she's my sis, she's my aunt, she's my mentor, but she's not who I am. Like, I am B. And, you know, the path that makes most sense is for B. I know.
- [20:28]
A
At least I've heard sort of among my class and my colleagues and friends. Divorcing yourself from the stories that you told yourself as a kid and maybe the narratives that you were told by people older than you, that's a really difficult transition. And I know a lot of people have been talking about how they feel so lost is because they, you know, no longer have that dangling in front of them. And it's. And it's hard to sort of go find what actually brings you joy. So I really appreciate you saying that. Do you have any sort of, like, recommendations, more advice thoughts for people who are considering higher education, Master's law, whatever it might be?
- [21:05]
B
Yeah. So one, make sure it's economically viable, you know, so I was able to basically go get a lot more education for little to nothing, Right?
- [21:13]
A
Yeah.
- [21:14]
B
And that's a huge deal. That meant that it really wasn't a hardship for me to either opt in or opt out. Like, it really made it simple for me. So. So one, really check your options out there. Like, it's Surprising to me. Like, for instance, I was mentoring someone and they were like, well, I'm only going to go to either like, Harvard Business School or Northwestern Business School or Yale's Business school. And I was like, what do you think the likelihood of getting a scholarship to any one of those three schools?
- [21:36]
A
Money, money, money.
- [21:38]
B
Exactly. And they were like, well, probably not. And I was just like, well, what do you think the economic likelihood is that you're going to get a job immediately that's going to pay for that school? And they were like, well, there's no guarantee. And I was like, exactly. So one, money is important. Like, don't let it rule everything that you do, but make sure that you really run those numbers and make sure you feel very comfortable, because once you get out, like, you know, you're just stuck.
- [22:01]
A
Yeah.
- [22:01]
B
Secondly, make sure the institution has a lot of support for folks around it. Right. I was really, really pleasantly surprised at my experience at Robert Morris because at every single level, they were constantly connecting me with people, constantly encouraging me to go out and get the skills necessary so I could actually, you know, as soon as I graduated, go into my chosen career field and be successful. So, like, half people who are going to be on you like your mama would be on you, basically. Yeah. And then third, make sure you do all the research. Right. So, like, if you do decide you want to get an mba, what do you actually think you're going to do with that? Right. So you need to think about, like, so what company? Like, what is my job? And, like, track back from the job that you think you're going to get to exactly what you think the requirements are for that job.
- [22:47]
A
Right. Work backwards.
- [22:48]
B
Exactly. And it's something that I say to people all the time, because even after product management, there are some product manager companies and jobs that you really do have to have an mba. Like, they're very, very specific. However, there's also so many companies that have product managers that there's definitely going to be a product manager job that exists where you don't have to have an mba. So you have to be strategic and think about, like, again, what areas, what companies am I actually interested in? And then what types of careers do they have? And then what types of degrees do I actually have to be successful at that particular company?
- [23:20]
A
Did you ever consider anything else beyond product management once you got into that field?
- [23:25]
B
So now that I'm getting to the point in my career where, you know, it gets. It gets a little bit murkier. So once you become a senior product manager, and above, you know, there's. There's just less roles at that, right? Like, you know, you could be a manager of product managers. You know, you could be a director of product management, VP of Product management. But then the question becomes like, do you want to be a cpo? And actually, I was having a conversation with one of my mentors where I was just like, I'm actually starting to think that maybe I want to be a coo, right? And I think that as I learn more and more about the companies and how the companies operate, what I really find is that the product space is just one small aspect of it. But really, to me, the whole company is a product. And if you can make the whole company align better and be more thoughtful and be more strategic in how we operate in every single aspect of our business, then that's really the secret sauce to really make it something really, really amazing. And it also probably doesn't hurt that Tim Cook is one of the people I admire most, and he went from a COO to CEO as well.
- [24:20]
A
I'm curious, what keeps you coming back to product management and maybe tech as a whole? If you eventually transition every single day, what is it about the field that keeps you coming back for more?
- [24:32]
B
I would start with tech. So tech is really challenging. There's no one answer. And it also changes constantly. So what's really interesting about my legal background is that it's led to me having a lot of opportunities to do a lot of compliance work. And so also, I think from the perspective of countries and industries trying to regulate themselves, there's a lot of complexity that's going to come with that. And so there's a certain amount of curiosity that I have to be a part of that conversation. So I think that's why I keep coming back to tech. When it comes to product, it's just really, again, it always comes back to this ability to have outsized influence on the company. Like, when you think about it, a product person, the decisions that we make every given day impact, you know, let's say if you're a small startup like shareasale, at least a few thousand people, right? Between the customers they had and their employees. But then we think of, like, companies like Apple. It's like, I probably impacted millions of people every day with my decisions, right? Yeah. It's just this really wonderful experience when you do something really great. And, you know, you created a great experience for your customers. And also you created so much more financial security for your company and for your team members. And it's like, there's something really powerful about that. It's something that makes me proud every day.
- [25:41]
A
Yeah. Being able to see that impact is something that I certainly know I would like from my career. I also would love to hear you speak a little bit about how your identity as a trans non binary lesbian has affected or influenced your career through tech and through being a product manager.
- [26:01]
B
Yeah, it's actually so funny because, like, my life is, like, in these little sections. So I came out as lesbian my freshman year of college, but I didn't come out as non binary until 2014, and then I didn't come out as trans non binary until 2016, 2017. So it's like all these different chunks. Right. So being a lesbian in and of itself, like, I got along really well with the guys. Although I have to still say I'm also still a Southern belle.
- [26:25]
A
Yes.
- [26:26]
B
Okay.
- [26:26]
A
Of course.
- [26:26]
B
I don't like those curse words. I don't like those curse words. I don't like any disrespect to the ladies guys. But I will say that, you know, for me, the biggest change came when I came out as non binary than trans non binary. One of the things I will say about being trans, and I think that whatever flavor of trans you are, like, you're basically redefining something for someone. Right. And the thing is that that's very difficult for people. Like, it's very difficult for people to have everything that they've ever considered to be challenged. And whether it's right or wrong, the ways in which that they react to those things are very, very not great. Usually for the person who is a trans person, you know, for the most part, most people are great. They still misgender. Sure. But, like, it also is because of, like, literally the cognitive dissonance of being taught one thing your entire life and being told now that I really need you to say they, them. And then also, like, while my name is still legally Bethany, like, my name is B. And like, I need you to respect that. But I've also had, you know, people who have really thought that they were being helpful to me explain to me that they think I should not do those things. So people who should be my advocates, other people who are minorities, even who have very specifically said very damaging and hurtful things because they were like, well, but B, I'm telling you this because, like, you know, I think it would be easier if you just went by she her pronouns. You could do the they them at home. And I was like, okay, so you. You only want me to be Myself at home. Right, right.
- [27:50]
A
What?
- [27:51]
B
And again, we know, like, all of the operational, like, experts, they say the same thing. The best way to build a successful team is to create psychological safety within that team. And so that means whether you're in tech or healthcare or any industry, like, in order to be successful at that work, you have to bring your whole self, and you have to be comfortable bringing your whole self to that work. And so those are the types of challenges I've had. And so one of the things that kind of sucks about that is that, you know, well, actually, it sucks about it, but it also works that I'm a product manager, right. So I'm already. Already used to having, like, this outsized voice in my companies, is that I have to advocate in every single space that I'm in, to the point that, like, I have, like, a cheat sheet when I start a new company where I'm like, oh, fy, this is the things I need you to do before I get there. Like, you need to introduce me to people. I don't want to do that. All right. We need to go ahead and set, like, the. The specific boundaries of our relationship and how they'll respect me and how I respect them. Wow. And so then on my day one, I get to hold people accountable. I don't have to. To explain my existence or justify my existence. I just get to start doing my work and saying, I'm B. Pagos Minor. These are my pronouns, and I expect you to do the same. Yeah, those are the difficult things. But again, I'm very fortunate, especially as my career has gone on, I've worked at gradually, you know, larger and more successful companies where they have the luxury of really spending a lot of time and energy and trying to get that right. So it's become less of an issue. But it also still this thing that I know that I have to be very loud about, because when my team members leave our company and go to that next company, that they kind of keep that same mindset so the next person doesn't have to do that work as well.
- [29:25]
A
That's so interesting. Thank you very much for sharing that. I appreciate it. Speaking of advocacy, I know that you hold leadership positions at multiple nonprofit organizations here in Chicago and beyond, including a fantastic organization called Howard Brown Health, which, if anyone listening has not heard of. I seriously encourage, encourage you to Google it right now, unless you're in the car or something. How did you get involved in the nonprofit sector, and how has that shaped your career?
- [29:51]
B
So when I first moved to Chicago to go to Northwestern. I was looking for internships, right? Because you're supposed to do as many internships as possible. And one of my professors was just like, you should go intern at this place called Howard Brown Health. Like, they would really. Well, actually, this was actually the Lesbian Community Care Project, which was a division of Howard Brown Health Health. And then they focused on, like, the L part of lgbtq. Well, actually the L and the B. And so I was an intern there. And then eventually, obviously, you know, I learned more about Howard Brown Services, and I became a patient. And then five years ago, I became a board member of Howard Brown Health. And again, talking about this idea of, like, how to prepare yourself, especially when I didn't have a job and I was looking for work in, you know, the 2008, 2009 period, I actually did a lot of stuff for Howard Brown, and Howard Bound would actually give me, like, these opportunities to do these complex projects where I'd have to manage volunteers, I'd have to manage data or something like that. And so my philanthropy started out of one, like, a need to just, like, make sure I have all my boxes checked. But it actually ended up being this really great resource to actually give me a lot of different skills. And I also think being someone who's very diverse, but then also who has, like, all this class privilege, right. You know, from economic empowerment, it just really became clear to me as I've gotten older that the two main things that separate everyone from success are education and healthcare. Right? And so that's why Howard Brown Health, especially, is such a big deal to me, because, like, the goal is to eliminate disparities in care for LGBTQ people. You add on YWCA with that, the YWCA of metropolitan Chicago, Their goal is to eliminate racism and also empower women and children. Right? Because they realize that the number one building block to families are women who are successful. Right. And so the two of those things put together to me are my kind of thought process of how I can actually make a real impact in this world, because they're focusing on how, you know, healthcare and also educating and empowering women to be very successful.
- [31:49]
A
Thank you. We're coming to the end of our time here, but I like to finish all my interviews with with the same question. Do you think that people should be passionate about what they do for a living?
- [32:01]
B
For most of my life, I will tell you that the work that I do with the nonprofits is actually my passion, but it doesn't pay the bills. So that's why I have a separate job. But what I will say is that especially over the past two or three years, I actually realized that my passion is just helping people. Yeah. And so as a product manager, I really get to help people in like a very specific way, but it's still helping them constantly. And so I actually do think that you have to have a certain amount of passion for it, even if you're like a mailman. Right. So my local male dude back when I was a kid, he loved it. Like, I remember him telling me, he was just like, well, I know when I deliver the mail, like I deliver people's paychecks, I deliver people's benefits. If I don't deliver this, like, they will not eat. I remember laughing him at the time. But, like, it's true though. But, right. He's like 100% right. Like, if he doesn't do what he's supposed to supposed to do, people suffer. Right. And he was so passionate about that. So I do think there has to be a passion in it. There's some aspects of work, no matter what work you do. Like, the simple reality is, is that you may not be passionate of all aspects of your job at all the time, but the high level, what value add it provides, you probably need to be a little passionate about that in order to be successful at it.
- [33:10]
A
Absolutely. Because that makes up for the other times that are just this log.
- [33:14]
B
Exactly.
- [33:15]
A
Awesome. Well, I want to give you the floor in case you want to say anything before we wrap up here, if there's anything we didn't cover or anything that you want to say to a group of, you know, soon to be graduates or have just graduated or truly anyone who's feeling a little bit lost in their professional life right now.
- [33:33]
B
Three things to highlight. It's probably going to take a while, but the ride is really, really nice.
- [33:39]
A
That's reassuring.
- [33:40]
B
Yes. People are really freaking awesome. And so really invest in people because if nothing else, you're going to have those people. And third, prepare, prepare, prepare.
- [33:52]
A
Well, thank you so much, Bea. To those who are listening out there, check out their website and check them out on LinkedIn. They always have incredible things to say and that is it. Thanks so much for listening. New episodes from season one are out every week on Wednesdays. Wherever you get your podcasts.