Are Mormons ACTUALLY Christian?! | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Episode Summary: "Are Mormons ACTUALLY Christian?!"

Podcast: Live Free with Josh Howerton
Host: Lakepointe Church
Date: February 2, 2026

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Overview

In this episode of Live Free with Josh Howerton, the hosts (Pastor Josh Howerton, Carlos Erazo, and Pastor Paul Cunningham) tackle a crucial and often misunderstood question: "Are Mormons actually Christians?" The conversation explores the origins and doctrines of Mormonism (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, LDS), the significant theological differences between historic Christianity and Mormonism, and practical guidance for engaging in respectful, truth-driven conversations with Mormons. The episode dives into how issues of spiritual authority, scriptural revelation, and doctrinal boundaries shape Christian identity—emphasizing the importance of discernment, loving service, and gospel clarity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Theme – Selflessness, Service, and Greatness

[00:00–04:00, 20:48–41:36]

• The episode begins with reflections on Mark 10 and Jesus’ revolutionary teaching on greatness through service, countering self-obsession.
• Key point: True greatness in God’s kingdom is found in humility and serving others, not self-promotion or authority.
• Quote (A, Josh Howerton, 37:18):
  “Do you know why your life feels dead? Because everybody's pouring into you and you're not pouring into anybody else. Nothing's flowing.”
• Discusses practical ways families and individuals can foster servanthood, including serving in church and community, and modeling this for children.

2. Navigating Propaganda and Critical Thinking in the Christian Life

[06:37–20:48]

• Pastor Josh launches into a detailed, rapid-fire critique of contemporary propaganda and misinformation—using ICE controversies as a case study.
• Christians are urged to "think, not feel" through cultural narratives, seek truth, and resist manipulation.
• Quote (A, Josh Howerton, 18:09):
  “Christians have to become people who wait, learn and reflect instead of just emotionally reacting and getting caught up in mass hysteria. Why? Proverbs 18:17. Whoever states his case first seems right until another comes and examines him.”
• Discussion underscores the need for Christians to be wise, discerning, and charitable in both belief and action.

3. Deep Dive on Mark 10 – The Path to True Greatness

[20:48–47:00]

• The hosts explore Mark 10:42-45, where Jesus redefines greatness and addresses James and John’s request for glory.
• The “cup” metaphor is traced back to the Old Testament, symbolizing God’s wrath and linking to Jesus’ substitutionary sacrifice.
• Rich insights are offered on the transformative power of serving others, both spiritually and in practical family discipleship.
• Quote (A, Josh Howerton, 30:24):
  “Do you know why Mike Bro has been elevated to greatness? Because he lowered himself to service. That is greatness in the kingdom of God.”

4. Introduction to Mormonism – “Is Mormonism Just Another Denomination?”

[47:00–52:00]

• Background: Mormonism was founded by Joseph Smith in 1830, claims to restore original Christianity, and has over 17 million global adherents.
• The hosts use humor and cultural references to make the content accessible (e.g., Captain Planet, fast food analogies).

5. Origins and Foundational Claims of Mormonism

[52:00–63:17]

• Joseph Smith’s background in “treasure digging” and spiritism is described as a prelude to his angelic visions and new revelations.
• Scriptural warnings (2 Corinthians 11:14; Galatians 1:8) are cited as prescient about Mormonism:
  • Quote (A, Josh Howerton, 54:37):
    “Spiritism in the equation. Difficult. Opening doors to unholy spirits. Yeah. A different Jesus and another gospel presented by an angel from heaven masquerading as an angel of light. And that is how you got the birth of Mormonism right there.”
• Parallels drawn with the origins of Islam (private angelic revelation, exclusive truth claims).

6. Doctrinal Distinctions: Christianity vs. Mormonism

[63:17–86:09]

• Crucial insight: Mormons use the same terms (God, Jesus, salvation) but mean fundamentally different things—“the same glossary, different dictionaries.”
• Core differences:
  • God:
    • Christianity: One God in three persons (Trinity); God has always been God.
    • Mormonism: God the Father was once a man on another planet, became God; polytheistic framework.
    • Quote (C, Paul Cunningham, 65:36):
      “In the same way that my wife wants to be known and loved for who she really is, God wants to be known, loved, and worshiped for who he truly is as well.”
  • Jesus:
    • Christianity: Eternally begotten Son, fully God.
    • Mormonism: Spirit child of Heavenly Father and mother, sibling to Lucifer, achieved godhood post-resurrection.
  • Salvation:
    • Christianity: By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
    • Mormonism: General resurrection for all, but “exaltation” (becoming a god) requires faith + extensive works, temple rituals, and obedience.
  • Scripture & Authority:
    • Christianity: The Bible as the final, unchangeable Word.
    • Mormonism: Four scriptures (Bible “as translated correctly,” Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price); plus ongoing revelation via LDS president.
  • Afterlife:
    • Christianity: Eternal life or separation based on Christ.
    • Mormonism: Multiple levels of heaven; all eventually saved; no eternal hell.

7. Implications: Are Mormons Christians?

[80:06–94:12]

• The hosts clarify denominational boundaries:
  • Denominations differ on secondary matters (baptism, church government, etc.) but agree on “first-order” essentials (nature of God, Jesus, salvation).
  • Mormonism diverges on essentials; thus, not a form of Christianity but a separate religion.
• Quote (A, Josh Howerton, 81:46):
  “There is a certain set of doctrines that are so important that if you do not believe those things, you are no longer, in a meaningful sense, a Christian.”
• Old Testament warning (Golden Calf, Exodus 32) applied: Using the “right name” but meaning a different reality is unacceptable to God.

8. Tough Questions: Common Objections and Pastoral Responses

• “But Mormons are good people and their faith helps them!”
  • The hosts affirm that moral improvement is not the same as saving faith; sincerity or positive fruit does not validate false doctrine.
  • Quote (A, Josh Howerton, 89:05):
    “Satan is fine with you becoming a more moral, happier person on your way to hell. He’s totally great with that, totally good with that.”
• “But I felt a burning in my bosom.”
  • Emotional or mystical experience is not a test for truth; feelings can be manipulated or misleading.
  • Quote (A, Josh Howerton, 91:21):
    “Do you know who else can give you a burning in your heart? Satan.”
• “Isn’t it just another denomination?”
  • “No. Because they differ on first-order, central doctrines, not secondary issues. That makes it a different faith.” (See [80:06])

9. Special Doctrines and Practices

• Baptism for the Dead: Mormons perform proxy rituals for deceased ancestors, believing the dead can accept this in the afterlife ([84:04], B: Carlos Erazo).
• Historical exclusion of Black people: The LDS church barred Black membership until the 1970s, often justified by the “curse of Ham”; later changed by a new revelation ([87:51]).

10. Engagement Principles for Christians

• Speak with both truth and gentleness, seeking to win people, not just arguments ([86:09], C: Paul).
• Best practice for discernment is to “know the real thing”: deep dive into the Bible and historic Christian doctrine, so counterfeits are more easily identified ([93:20], C: Paul).
• Recommended book for those seeking to help or engage: Unveiling Grace by Lynn K. Wilder ([94:12]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On serving:
  “The happiest people in the world are the most servant-oriented people in the world.”
  — A, Josh Howerton ([36:57])

• On Mormonism’s core distinctives:
  “We share the same vocabulary, but not the same dictionary…Mormonism has more in common with Greek pagan polytheism than it does with Christianity.”
  — C, Paul Cunningham ([65:18],[67:21])

• On feeling vs. truth:
  “Just because a car accident helped you, that doesn’t mean I’m starting a car accident ministry, you know.”
  — A, Josh Howerton ([89:38])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Propaganda and Critical Thinking: 06:37–20:48
• Mark 10 and the Path to Greatness: 20:48–47:00
• Mormonism Background and Humor: 47:00–52:00
• Origins and Doctrinal Differences: 52:00–66:00
• Major Mormon/Christian Contrasts: 66:00–86:09
• Denominational vs. Doctrinal Boundaries: 80:06–84:04, 81:46
• Practical Guidance and Resources: 86:09–end

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Conclusion & Resources

• Christians are urged to respond to Mormon claims with biblical truth, clarity about core doctrines, and loving engagement.
• Deep familiarity with the Bible and historical theology is the best preparation for discernment.
• Recommended resource for further study:
  • Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Lynn K. Wilder ([94:12])
• Encouragement: Serve others, pursue true greatness in Christ, and be ready to share your faith “with gentleness and respect” (1 Peter 3:15).

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For more resources or to join a serve team at Lakepointe, text SERVE to 20411 or download the Lakepointe Church app.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Do you know why your life feels dead? Because everybody's pouring into you and you're not pouring into anybody else. Nothing's flowing.

[B]

The antidote towards your obsession with self.

[A]

Is just you serve Satan is fine with you becoming a more moral, happier person on your way to hell. He's totally great with that.

[C]

But it's interesting that when Jesus walked this earth for Jesus, it was not all about Jesus. It was about others.

[B]

Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the live free podcast. My name is Carlos Erazo. I'm here with Pastor Josh Howton and Pastor Paul Cunningham singing Captain Planet. He's the hero. And that's not true because Jesus is a hero.

[A]

We just got Jesus juked on Captain Planet. We were doing a vintage early 90s cartoon dive. How did you. Why did you bring up Captain Planet?

[B]

He did.

[C]

I said he's been brought up like two times.

[B]

He said it was his favorite show.

[C]

To show people what the Trinity is not. But then also what Mormonism kind of is.

[B]

Only in the live free podcast and only with Chad G. Paul C. Will you ever hear a connection between Captain Planet and the Trinity.

[C]

That's exactly right.

[A]

And Mormonism and more, which we're talking about today.

[B]

Hey, that's right. Hey, by the way, we are coming to you from snowy Dallas, Texas. Yeah, that's Lake Point Church. And today we're going to be talking About Mark chapter 10. Jesus teaching us how to pursue greatness. Nostalgia.

[A]

Hero. Going to take pollution down to zero. I'm done. I'm done.

[C]

We will do a deep dive sometime about all of woke culture started with that. Pretty sure it originated there. Oh, gosh.

[A]

What are we talking about?

[C]

Finish your sentence.

[B]

I want to know if we really are in a propaganda war about ice is what I want to know. We're going to go there as well, and we're going to be doing a deep dive on Mormonism. Are Mormons actually Christians or is it just another denomination or is it a cult? And so, man, it's going to be a great episode, man.

[A]

What's the end of passage we got here. What's our passage?

[B]

We're going to mark chapter 10.

[A]

Mark 10 passage, man.

[B]

Well, I did say it, but you played.

[A]

Hey, here's what I want to know. Did you watch Goodwill Hunting this week?

[B]

I did not.

[A]

The TBS version.

[B]

I did not. But you know what? I actually. I want to watch it.

[A]

You got to.

[B]

That's my next one.

[A]

You got to.

[C]

It's not your fault that you didn't watch it. Sorry, it's It's.

[A]

It's not your fault. You'll get.

[C]

You'll get that when you watch it.

[A]

You'll get it when you see it.

[C]

Like, why did you just say that?

[A]

You'll get it when you see it.

[B]

Hey, did you say, by the way, that there were some people commenting on our arm wrestling match? Cuz I have not read.

[A]

They did comment. They talked about the utter domination. I got multiple from a 5A.

[B]

Keep going.

[C]

I'm curious to hear multiple texts and emails. Things like unfair starting advantages.

[B]

Wait, what? I haven't read these.

[C]

Unfair starting advantages. Do we need to do mandatory testing of creatine levels?

[A]

I take creatine every single day.

[C]

And that may. That may be your thing. Maybe. I do not.

[A]

You're not doing creatine.

[B]

I do not.

[C]

By the way.

[A]

You got to create.

[B]

Listen, listen.

[C]

This is not a banned substance.

[A]

For those of you. You know what this is? This is like a.

[B]

Listen, listen. 100% natural right here.

[A]

Look at him.

[C]

You did lose though.

[B]

I mean, I mean, I guess suppose. Yeah, I mean, 100% natural.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Creatine's a win, my friend.

[C]

It does give you an energy boost in your mind.

[A]

Didn't Mark McGuire take creatine? Didn't he back in the day when he hit all the home runs?

[C]

What was the other one? It's like start with an A.

[A]

Him and Sammy Sosa.

[C]

Yeah, but they did later. Pretty much admit we're off the rails.

[B]

I need to go. I need to go find his comments. Hey, every single week we do a hat giveaway. And last winner. Or in last week's winner, we have Courtney Jetly, 2450, by the way. Hear her story. She took two flights from California to Denver to DFW at 4am and she drove two hours to Rockwell and missed the free hat memo. So she's from California, came here, and she did not get a hat. So you know what? We got you, Courtney. We got a hat for you.

[C]

Hat.

[A]

Hat. Hat.

[B]

Captain Planet. Okay. To participate in this week's giveaway, comment hat below on YouTube. And we will pick 10.

[A]

Hey, man, 10. We're giving away 10. And listen, we're trying to get. And I want to keep saying this because I keep seeing. I don't get any money for you buying our hats. I get that. Is no money for that. These pods ain't free. It's for cameras and stuff. So they can get that. And I want. I want to get it to the spot where it's like you can't go anywhere without seeing one that's how Live Free Nation wins. So where do they go again?

[B]

If you. So a couple things. If you are part of our Live Free Nation and you come and visit us in person for the first time and you say I came here because of the podcast, we get a free hat for you.

[A]

Yeah. Like point if you, if you hit one of our first time guest tents. That's right.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

On the outside and say, hey, Live Free podcast. Yeah.

[B]

And then also you can we have an online store for the app. If you go to Live Free shop or text the word had to 20411 and by the way, we did have a visitor yesterday. Trainer.

[C]

You got that photo of dude.

[B]

Shara Fisher.

[A]

This was awesome.

[B]

And her granddaughter Milana came to say hi. And it just so happens that, you know, we were there and we were. Yeah.

[A]

Drove in from Illinois.

[B]

She came for the weekend. Unfortunately.

[A]

We were. Yeah. Snow and ice.

[B]

It was a little icy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so this is probably the first photo we capture of like, you know, hanging out the three of us and. And somebody else in lfree.

[C]

It's great.

[B]

It's a great dude.

[A]

But got got a couple Bibles for her. It was amazing, right?

[B]

That's right. And shout out to her husband as well. Who's list. Amen in this moment. Hey, one more thing. A lot of people have been asking us about a daily Bible reading plan because we are all about the Bible. So we did that. When you download the Lakepoint app, you'll find a daily Bible reading plan plus the weekly sermon, plus an early release every single week of the weekly live free podcast episode, plus a discipleship guide that you can use with your life group.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And deepen your relationship. So to download the Lake Point Church app, text award app to 20411 or go to Apple or Google Play store. Pastor Josh, I have a question for you.

[A]

Name that cartoon character.

[B]

I love how you were like, not.

[A]

Asking me like, you. This guy hasn't even seen Goodwill Hunting. I'm not asking him. Right.

[B]

I know Scooby. You know, I feel like you felt.

[C]

You don't constantly know Scooby's like Scubby Scribbi.

[B]

Isn't that one the, you know, Blue's Clues?

[A]

Stop, dude, stop. You know, I'm brushed up on my.

[B]

He knows me enough.

[A]

Yeah. I know my voices because I'm doing. When I read the act Bible to Hudson at night, they always. I do voices. So I've been Scooby.

[B]

You do Scooby quite a bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It comes Out. Hey, Pastor Josh. I have a question for you.

[A]

I will allow it.

[B]

I heard you got some heat on the ice. Propaganda conversation on Instagram.

[A]

No, not at all, Carlos.

[B]

Not at all. You never get that, right?

[A]

No, no, not at all.

[B]

Would you tell me about it? Because I want to know more about that.

[A]

Well, let me just. Okay, so honestly, on Instagram, if. Honestly, dude, it feels like 2020 again, on Instagram, it's like people are being very emotionally manipulated. Listen, I love you guys, but there are a lot of people who. They are. They are feeling, not thinking, and they're swept up in mass hysteria that, in my correct, humble, but correct opinion, is being intentionally manufactured by propaganda. And so, 10 toes down, you are in the middle of a propaganda war. Can I. Can I prove it to people?

[B]

Let's hear.

[A]

Okay, so I'm going to do this. I'm about to waterboard you with the reality. You are in the middle of a propaganda war. Whether you know it or not, you are in the middle of a propaganda war right now. Now, let me set this up, and then I'm going to rapid fire these. And if you are skeptical of this, I'm asking you to stay with me the entire time. Because by the end, you are not going to be able to deny the reality you are in the middle of a propaganda war. Now, let me set this up. At some point, we need to do an entire episode on a book by a guy named Saul Alinsky called Rules for Radicals. Rules for Radicals is the playbook by virtually every. For every. Virtually every Marxist agitator. And those people actually exist. There are small, coordinated groups, but they actually exist. Solinsky outlined 11 rules by which primarily Marxist agitators could destabilize, destabilize societies and advance a revolution. Eleven rules. Three of them were this. Step one. This is what he said. He says, step one, create a crisis. Step two. One of the other rules is your real action, is your enemy's reaction. Now, here's what he meant by that. I'm going to read from a summary of this. Here's what he meant by that. Your real action is your enemy's reaction. When facing a stronger adversary like the government. The organizer or agitator's initial action is not the end goal. It is supposed to be a deliberate provocation designed to elicit specific response from your opponent. That response, if anticipated and strategically guided, becomes the true mechanism for advancing your cause. Now, as I'm reading this, remember, dude, they're running the exact same play as 2020 BLM. And I would Remind you, if you got hoodwinked by the BLM thing, literally, the leaders of the BLM organization publicly said, and I quote, we are trained Marxists. That's what they said. We are trained Marxists. Let me keep going. Saul Alinsky. The idea is to goad the enemy into reacting in a way that you can then leverage to alienate their supporters or strengthen your position. So what he's saying is, second rule, your real action is your enemy's reaction. I'm going to try to provoke you. Law enforcement, government. I'm going to try to provoke you to do something in reaction to my provocation that I can capture in an image or a video and then publicize it and propagandize it to whip up. And this is what he said, to whip up. He said, reacting in a way that can be leveraged to alienate their supporters or strengthen your position. And then after you've done that and public pressure becomes massive, then the last thing is force a solution. And their solution is the advancement of the revolution. So that's what Saulinsky said. Okay, now listen, I'm about to waterboard you with this. If you do not believe you're in the middle of a propaganda war. I love you. And you can be as mad at me as you want. You're wrong. Okay, so listen, I'm going to rapid fire these. Here we go, right here. Number one. No, this is not a picture of an eight year old girl who died in ICE custody under the Trump administration's heartless dictatorship. It happened in 2023, as reported by the New York Times, under the Biden administration. But now it's getting millions of views and being labeled as happening. Now. Number two. No, this is not a photo of a five year old put in a cage because of the current administration calls people illegal. Nope. Snopes reports. After millions of views, it was discovered that was a photo taken at a protest staged in front of Dallas City Hall. The parents brought the kid to the protest. He was in the cage for about 30 seconds and he cried because he couldn't figure out how to get out. Number three. No, this is not a video of ICE agents, quote, unquote, drive by, macing people for no reason. That went mega viral. I watched the entire video myself. They were throwing things at law enforcement vehicles and the guy maced the guy that was throwing things at law enforcement vehicles. Number four. No, this is not a picture of a woman whose hand was shot off by ICE agents firing rounds at mourners, as was claimed. And it got millions of Views? Nope. She was rioting and obstructing law enforcement. And as you can see right here, she picked up a flashbang before it detonated and injured her own hand. Blew part of it off. Next one. No, this is not a picture of a five year old boy arrested by ICE as reported. The boy's father abandoned him while he was fleeing arrest. That is a picture of ICE agents following protocol and not leaving a five year old alone in freezing weather out on the street. Next one. No, this is not a picture of a baby that was tear gassed by ICE while his parents were on their way to a basketball game. Go to that. Next picture. You can literally see Nvidia that was uncovered later. His parents lied. They're on video at a violent protest and they left their baby alone in a car for 45 minutes at a riot that they helped cause and they forced tear gas to be deployed. Next one. This is not a picture of an innocent restaurant worker being arrested by heartless ICE agents. As you can see right here. It is a picture of an illegal child rapist who fled into a restaurant to avoid arrest and seems to have a knife in his hand. If you look closely. Next one. This is not a picture of ICE ripping a disabled woman from her car while she was screaming that she was trying to get to the doctor as was claimed and seen by millions of people. I watched the entire video. She was intentionally obstructing ICE officers by blocking a road. She was asked by four, four different ICE officers to move. She did not comply and so they were forced to remove her from her vehicle. Next one. This is not a picture of a mother whose son was gunned down for no reason by quote unquote racist ICE officers. Nope. Actually it was discovered this kid was firing an AR style rifle into the air into the middle, in the middle of an apartment complex. He was asked to stop by law enforcement who self identified as law enforcement. And not only did he not comply, he is reported as turning his firearm on the ICE agent and firing a shot in the agent's direction. In fact, the kid's dad admitted in a video interview that I watched that his son was doing something illegal with a gun and he knew that it was illegal. Next one. No, that is not an innocent man. This, this right here it is. That was. There was not an innocent man that was shot for no reason by ICE agents in Arizona. Next one. Actually, even the Associated Press reports the guy was firing rounds at law enforcement helicopters and law enforce individuals and they returned defensive fire. Next one. No, this is not A picture of a federal agent, quote, unquote, terrorizing an innocent observer by pointing a gun at his face. Nope. If you go watch the video, I took these screenshots. The guy was obstructing law enforcement on purpose. He initiated contact with the law enforcement agent and pulled the gun, tried to pull it out of his hands. Then the muzzle of what appears to be a gun briefly flashes in front of his face because he pulled it out of the agent's hands. And it was pepper spray. It was not a rifle. Next one. No, this is not a New Yorker article about a quote, unquote, innocent Jamaican US Citizen who is shackled and deported for no reason. Whoopsie daisy. He had multiple felonies, including armed robbery and murder. I repeat, murder. So his citizenship was revoked and law enforcement was carrying out the warrant for his arrest. Next one. No, this is making the rounds again. No, the current administration's deportations are not, quote, unquote, unprecedented. On the COVID of Time magazine. That's what it says, actually. I'm gonna read you some stats. Bill Clinton deported 12.3 million people. Bush deported 10.3 million people. Obama deported 3 million people. Biden deported 4.4 million people. So far, through both of his terms combined, Trump has deported a total of an estimated 2.5 million people, less than all these others. You may be asking the question, well, then why am I hearing so much about it? Why am I hearing about it more? Because you're in a propaganda war, that's why. Let's keep going. Next one. No. ICE is not the, quote, unquote, American Gestapo, as will probably surprise many people who are not as aware. The leader of ICE is that guy on the right. His name is Tom Homan. He served in the exact same position under Barack Obama. This is Barack Obama giving Tom Homan a distinguished Service Medal in 2015 for deporting more people than he has during the current administration. Now, listen, I could literally go on and on and on. Listen to me. Is this blanket approval of everything that every ICE agent does and everything the administration does? No, it isn't. Honestly. I'll be honest, man. I was talking to you about this at lunch. There's some things I don't like. I don't like them doing little hype videos on TikTok of deporting families, that kind of thing? Does the law need to be enforced? Yes, it does. Do you need to make a hype video about everything? No, it doesn't. Comes across as performative cruelty. So is this a blanket approval of literally everything Everybody does. Of course not. Are you in a propaganda war? Yes, you are in a propaganda war. And it's design. Listen, it's just. Think, think. Don't feel your way through things. Think your way through things. It's 2020 again, it's a propaganda war. It is designed to galvanize the public against law enforcement, just like they did in 2020. What's. Why is this happening? It's a midterm election year. Like, man, just, like, actually stop and think for a second. So listen, man, Christians ought to be able to chew gum and walk at the same time. Okay, so Christians are commanded to love all people, including illegal immigrants. In fact, I'll just say this, man. I've seen some comments, like, people taking shots at me, where they'll be like, hey, man, you guys have Lake Point in espanol. Do you know that all of them are legal? Or they'll be like, hey, man, you guys have a. I'll just say this. We have a food pantry that serves, like, almost a million meals per year out of Lake Point. I guarantee an enormous number of them are not legal residents of the United States. I don't care, because I'm going to let the government do their job, and then the church and individual Christians, we're going to do our job, and we bless God in those things. So absolutely, man. If somebody walks into my church and says, hey, man, will you disciple me? My answer is yes. And if somebody's hungry and they walk up to my church and they want food, my answer is, we are Christians. We feed hungry people. Yep. We want to help and bless you. So Christians are commanded to love all people, including illegal immigrants. God commands all people, including illegal immigrants, to obey just laws, including border laws that should not be controversial. And it is not wrong for a nation to enforce the laws it's had on the books for over five decades. But listen, man, what you got to understand right now, and 10 toes down, you can. You can comment to your heart's content on my Instagram page. 10 toes down. You are 100% in a propaganda war right now. And Christians have to become people who wait, learn and reflect instead of just emotionally reacting and getting caught up in mass hysteria. Why? Proverbs 18:17. Whoever states his case first seems right until another comes and examines him. You, my friends, are in the middle of a propaganda war, Period. That's my rant.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

My rant is over.

[B]

That's good. It's a good invitation. Honestly, unnecessary one. Especially in this time of social media things Move fast, news. Move fast. Yeah, you got to be exercise wisdom and discernment.

[C]

Harm in the sense of you're spreading misinformation. Like if you're taken in by the stuff and then you share it, you're doing harm and that you're spreading misinformation and you're like the boy who cries wolf. Yeah, dude, once when something actually legitimately bad happens, people are not prone to believe you because you've shared so many other things that are untrue. So to your point, because every time I've seen you post stuff like this, you always give a caveat at the end of saying. I am not saying everything ICE does has been good. They've done some wrong things. Own administration has admitted that in the past week. But it's the point of when you're sharing this stuff, when they actually do do harm, people are going to tune you out because you've spread so many other lies and misinformation because you've been taken in by it.

[A]

That's right, man. Dude, I'll just, I'll gently say this. I'm asking it out when I'm done, let's see how it comes out. I'll gently say this. This is Jana. Jana and I were talking about. This is. You can pretend all you want that men and women are not different. Men and women are different. God created men and women. Women different. Men and women receive different curses of the fall. In Genesis 3, there are specific commands that are given differently to men and husbands and women and wives, which means, oh, by the way, that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses. One of those is that. This is. Listen, I'm relaying Janna. I'll ask her if I have permission later and then if not, then you're going to cut this out. One of those is that man, sometimes women can be a little more prone to thinking, to emotional reasoning, to feeling your way through something instead of stopping and thinking your way through something. Does that mean that women are worse than men? No, men have their own individual generalized weaknesses too. But I'm just saying, when I'm on Instagram, I'll just say it, dude, it's like wall to wall white women. It's what it's. Seriously, that's who it is. It's wall to wall white women getting caught up in like mass hysteria and feeling their way through things instead of thinking their way through things. And no, I'm not saying that all white women. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, hey, man, in a Generalized way. Watch it and make sure that you got your left tackles up, you know, so there. There you go. There you have it.

[B]

Good one, man. Hey, let's talk about the Bible.

[A]

That'd be great. Let's do that.

[B]

That was really helpful, by the way.

[A]

Good gear shift there.

[C]

Second time he's. Jesus juked us.

[B]

Man. We. Pastor Mike did a phenomenal job this weekend. Hey, hey. That was really good word, by the way.

[C]

That was good. You were just cooking.

[A]

I was like, all right, that was.

[B]

A really good word.

[C]

I'm.

[B]

I'm just letting it soak a little bit. On that note, Pastor Mike did a great job as well.

[A]

Pastor Mike always does a great job. The man's a legend.

[B]

That's right. That's right. We went Mark, chapter 10. And so if somebody's here, maybe they didn't listen to the sermon, you can go back and find it on our YouTube channel. The main text was Mark, chapter 10, verse 42 to 45. Basically tells the story of John and James, the sons of thunder, that they're trying to awkwardly ask Jesus to get them a special seat on his right and left. And basically Jesus recalibrates their definition of greatness and redirects their ambition. So I want to ask you guys out of this passage. Anything else that stood out that you're like, I gotta share this?

[A]

Yeah, dude, there was a lot, man. This is. This is an all time great passage here, man. So one of the most important stories you get in the Gospels, and I love, by the way, that we get a Sons of Thunder thing right after last week's episode. Okay, man, so I'll hit a couple things, you know, number one, Matthew, Mark, chapter 10. This is in Mark, chapter 10. This parallel passage in Matthew, chapter 20 tells the same story from a different angle. That's what the Gospels are, by the way. Same story, different camera angles. And the Matthew 20 passage obviously records, unlike the Mark 10 passage that their mommy brought them.

[C]

You got something, you share yours. But there's a cool detail people miss.

[A]

Well, you do yours, then do it.

[C]

Okay, so mom. And as it says the mother of Zebedee's sons, that phrase only comes up one other time in the book of Matthew. And it's at the cross. So she asks, can my son sit right and left? She's like, you don't know what you're asking for. And all of a sudden go to the cross and it says, the mother of Zebedee sons were there. She gets an eyewitness view of what she had been asking for.

[A]

I've never. I'm so glad you're on this podcast.

[C]

And so even, like, the idea of, like, I've not come, but I've not come to be served, but to serve and give my life as a ransom for many, which was where on the cross. So she got to say, oh, that's. That's what I was asking for. And that's what he meant. Yeah, I didn't.

[B]

I didn't see that until this week as well. The idea that, you know, he's asking a seat on the right and left. And then obviously Jesus responds with, hey, they're suffering with that. And then. But John was at the cross, right, Paul. Yeah.

[C]

Later, towards the end. So that most of it was that he came later.

[B]

John would have realized, like, oh, there's a. There is a man on his right and on his left. And this is what Jesus was talking about.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so at the cross where Jesus is glorified, John literally says that he was glorified on the cross, bro. And so that's wild.

[A]

That's amazing. I didn't catch that. That's awesome. I'm glad you said that. All right, a couple other things. So this dovetails, what Paul just said. So if you're like a new Bible reader, you read a passage like this. Where's that verse where he says, okay, it says right here. I'm going to read it. So they go, hey, will you grant for us to sit one to your right, one to your left in glory, verse 38? Jesus says, and if you're a new Bible reader, this language doesn't make sense to you, but I want it to make sense to you. Jesus says to them, you don't know what you're asking. Are you able to. And then he uses this phrase, drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized. Now, if you read that and you're a new Bible reader, you don't know what the heck he's talking about. Okay, what's going on here is he's pulling on a massive Old Testament thread. There's like, I looked him up this week. There's about 30 verses in the Old Testament that refer to God pouring out his wrath and judgment on sin as a cup that people are forced to drink. I'm going to read three passages so that you understand the thread Jesus pulling on. This is Isaiah 51:17. Wake yourself. Wake yourself. Stand up, O Jerusalem, you who have. Here it is drunk from the hand of the Lord, the cup of his wrath. Now Stay with me because there's a really good payoff here. Who have drunk to the dregs. That's like if you're a wine drinker, that's the stuff at the bottom of the cup, the bowl, the cup of staggering. Here's another one. Isaiah 51:22. Thus says the Lord, the Lord, the Lord your God, who pleads the cause of his people. Behold, I have taken from your hand. Here it again is again, the cup of staggering. The bowl of my wrath. You shall drink no more. Let me do one more. Jeremiah 25:15. Thus the Lord, the God of Israel, said to me, take from my hand. Here it is again, this cup of the wine that's important, of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I will send you drink it. All right, so, bro, here's what Jesus is doing. He's doing two things. One, he's saying they would have known that. They would have read their Old Testament. They would have known. Oh, when he's talking about a cup in the Old Testament, God pouring out his judgment and wrath for sin. That's the cup. And Jesus is saying, can you. Can you drink that? Can you drink that thing? The suffering that I'm about to experience for that thing. Now here's. Here's where it gets kind of cool. You go a little deeper. So you've seen Carlos. Have you seen the Princess Bride?

[B]

Oh, I have, yes.

[A]

Are you sure?

[B]

I have. Yeah. With Anne Hathaway, right?

[C]

No, that's the Princess Diaries, bro. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay.

[B]

The Princess Bride.

[C]

We all still love Jesus.

[A]

Are you punking me?

[B]

No.

[A]

You're punking me, right?

[B]

No, it's not a joke.

[C]

Actually, we all still love Jesus here, too.

[B]

The grace. Go ahead, go ahead.

[A]

I listen to you.

[B]

This is amazing. Princess Bride.

[A]

Listen, someday me and Paul are gonna come to El Salvador and you'll be the one making fun of us for not knowing anything.

[B]

Oh, definitely have not seen that.

[A]

No, bro, Put it on the list.

[B]

This is. Are you sure?

[A]

Yeah, dude.

[C]

Is this.

[B]

Is that it?

[A]

Yeah. Yes. That's like a legendary movie.

[B]

Goes from recommending Braveheart to Princess of Gratitude. Mormonism.

[C]

That word does not mean what I.

[A]

Think he's used that word. I do not think you know it. Okay, let's Google. Okay, so there's this spot. You won't understand this. I'm talking to Chips.

[B]

That's okay.

[A]

Tune me out.

[B]

That's ok.

[A]

So you remember that time with the fat guy in there, does the thing and he's like, two cups of wine, and then he poisons one. And there's the one that's gonna make you die, and there's the one that's gonna be life. Okay, so, dude, here's what. And. Oh, here's a deep cut. So I actually watched an interview with J.K. rowling. Obviously. Have you read Harry Potter?

[B]

I know Harry Potter.

[A]

Do you know who Harry Potter is? J.K. rowling, who's like, Christian. Ish. She's like. She has a vague Christian influence. So in that, you remember when he's in a little cave at the end with Dumbledore and they're trying to get the little Horcrux. I've never felt stupider than I feel right now saying the word Horcrux. And you remember where the only way for him to get the little Horcrux thingamajigger is Dumbledore, who's like a Christ figure in the book. Dumbledore has to drink to the dregs. This poisoned thing that's gonna kill him. So when Jesus go with me. Quit laughing at me. So when Jesus does this, he's like, can you drink cup? I'm about to drink. What he's doing here is he's going, hey, man, I'm gonna drink the cup that you all deserved so that you can drink the cup that I deserved. I'm gonna drink the cup of wrath and judgment and death so that you guys. And at the Lord's Supper, Jesus goes, hey. He holds up a cup of wine and he goes, this is the blood of the new covenant that's poured out for you for the forgiveness of sins. So he's going, hey, man, why don't we trade cups? The cup that you deserved was the cup of judgment, wrath and death. And the cup that I deserved was the cup of life and joy and celebration. And he's gone. I'll trade cups with you. And this is what's happening here. Okay? Now here's. Here's what's really cool. If you go even one more layer deeper, what you got right here is Jesus says to James and John, these two guys, they go, we think we can drink the cup. Because they didn't know what the heck they were talking about. They're, you know, they're being idiots. And Jesus very chillingly says, actually, guys, you are going to drink the cup. And he's given them a prophecy about what's going to happen to him. Very interesting. Tragically, not much later, actually, church history tells us about 10 years later, one of the two dudes he's talking to James. Big James. James in the book of Acts is recorded. He's the first martyr of the apostles, A.D. 44, killed by Herod. And when he's beheaded, he fulfills Jesus prophecy. You will, James. He was looking at him. And Jesus knew. Jesus knew. He said, you are, you're going to drink my cup. You're going to go to a cross. You're going to go to a death too. And then obviously John in the old age, in his old age he was tortured. Church history tells us that John was boiled alive. Boiled alive, but did not die. So then he gets exiled to the isle of Patmos. Patmos probably looking like a walking chicken nugget. And he lives the rest of his days in isolation. Writes the book of Revelation. And guess what? He drank the cup too. And so what Jesus is doing here is he's establishing a principle that spiritual authority only comes through submission and service. Spirit, let me say it one more time. Spiritual authority only comes through submission and service. And dude, I just want to do something real quick. I actually want to shout out Mike Bro who preached his message. And I'm going to say something he's not going to like me saying and that he would never say publicly. But I'm going to say it because there's a lot of things people don't know about Mike Bro. Mike Bro was the senior pastor of one of the largest churches in America and fastest growing churches in America in the 90s. Church called Cross, Crossland Church I think in Lexington. Seriously church, you know, in the 90s the church 10,000 people like that wasn't a thing like that didn't happen.

[B]

Where was it?

[A]

Lexington, Kentucky. And Mike was like in church world, Mike was a big, a big dagum deal. Mike then went to at what at the time was the largest church in America. And he was supposed to be one of the guys that became the successor to the senior pastor of that church. So Mike had a, has had a lot of greatness in his life. Here's what a lot of people don't know about Mike Bro. People you can bag on all these mega church pastors just want to be treated like celebrities and da da da da da. Here's who Mike Bro is. Mike, if I understand this correctly, every Thursday Mike lives in little house. He makes his way over to a Starbucks. And this guy that was one of the most prominent well known pastors in America, you know, he does on Thursday morning he teaches a little Bible study to about six recovering addicts. Just Mike Bro and six Dudes, do you know what else Mike does? Mike, in his free time, he mows widows lawns in his neighborhood. The guy that, like, was on a front page of newspapers, asked to speak all over the place. One of the most prominent preachers in the United States. What's he do? He mows widows lawns in his neighborhood. And he's got a little hobby. Mike likes to work with his hands. He likes construction, likes swinging a hammer. The other thing Mike does, when he hears about somebody in need in his city, he just, he'll walk over to the little house. Somebody doesn't have enough money to renovate their house or fix something. And his little hobby is helping people who can't afford it renovate their houses and get it up and running. So here's my point. Do you know why Mike bro has been elevated to greatness? Because he lowered himself to service. That is greatness in the kingdom of God. That right there.

[C]

Amen.

[B]

Like, a lot of people don't realize, like, sometimes the. What we think are the quote unquote, small, simple teachings of Jesus, like what you just said about being great and being humble. They've been like, they're radically, like, revolutionary in history.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Like, obviously, this is an example. Tom Holland writes a book, Dominion, I haven't read.

[A]

I've heard it's good.

[C]

Amazing.

[B]

He tracks history, basically. And he, he shows how the influence of. And he's not a Christian, by the historian. And this would be an example of one of them. Like, if you, if you zoom out in history, before Jesus, power existed to protect the powerful. But then after Jesus, power exists now to serve the powerless, which is what God, who is the most powerful, does with us, who we are the most powerless. And this is why today, in some ways, like, it's normal. People, people don't realize this, but it's actually normal for people to be like, we want to hold our leaders accountable because there's an expectation that the powerful are serving the ones that are. That are weak. And so. But that' Jesus, that's in literally, you see this in history before Jesus. In the ancient world, sick people were abandoned after Jesus. You know, Christians are caring for the sick. Hospitals are made by Christians. And so it all starts with, with Jesus's teaching or here to be a servant.

[A]

Dude, did you. Have you. You know, the thing about Senica, have you heard this?

[B]

No.

[A]

All right, so Mark, all the gospels, you know, they're written for different audiences. Mark's Gospel of all of them, it has a few things in it that is like Geared towards a Roman audience. Okay, so this is one I learned this last time I preached this passage. So Seneca obviously a well known author, writer, philosopher in the Roman Empire, a few years, like not that long before Jesus says this, Seneca had popularized an idea in the Roman Empire. And I'm going to quote, this is a quote. Many serve and die for the one ruler. That was Seneca's idea of leadership. Many serve and die for the one ruler. And Jesus. In this passage, some people think Jesus intentionally exactly reversed the very popular Seneca teaching. And Jesus goes, you know, actually the ruler serves and dies for the many.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Let's even like think we would say obviously it's all about Jesus. Right? Common phrase. And it is all about Jesus. But yet it's interesting that when Jesus walked this earth, earth for Jesus, it was not all about Jesus, bro. That is, that's great. It was about others. Interesting. By the way, even now from heaven it says that he is interceding for us. So he is still serving us even in heaven. And so it's, it is all about Jesus. But again, for the one whom, for whom it is all about for him it wasn't about himself, it was about others. And so all that being said, then for me, it definitely can't be about me.

[A]

Yes, right.

[C]

It has to be for others. That's the idea of serving here that he's getting at too. So I love that idea. It's like, man, true authority actually starts in humbling yourself and serving others.

[A]

That's right, dude.

[C]

H. Good.

[B]

And that's a freeing thing. I think today in our culture, everybody's about self. We're obsessed with self. And what Jesus is teaching us here, this, that the antidote towards your obsession with self that is freeing is just you serve, you ask, hey, how can I, how can I help you? How can I serve you? Anything? Anything else from the passage you guys want?

[A]

Let's get practical for a second. Let's get real practical because there's some implications here, not just for like disciples, but honestly, dads, moms and dads. But I'm a dad, so you know, moms and dad. You know, one thing, man, that I don't think I realized until, you know, I got a few years under me following Jesus is, you know, that where Jesus, you know, Jesus says it's better to. It's more blessed to give than receive. And then he does the. With the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And you know that kind of thing. And given, it will be given to you pressed down, shaken together, pouring over. I honestly, I used to only apply that to money. And it's true for money. But honestly, man, like it's really, it applies to everything. Including, including service. So what you, what I've noticed is that the happiest people in the world are the. Are the most servant oriented people in the world. You'll know if in fact, here's a homework assignment this week. All I want you to do is just walk around your life and notice. Just notice who are the happiest people. What you will notice is that the happiest people you see, they are the people whose lives are spent serving other people. Why? Because it actually is true. It's more blessed. Blessed. The Greek word translated blessed. It literally just means happy. It's more happy to give than to receive. So, dude, here's one. So we're going to Israel later. Are we going or just you going? Am I going?

[C]

I'm going in a month for like kind of a skyniking. We're going to be there together when we're there together.

[A]

So when you go to the Dead Sea. So here's one. I've never gotten this into a sermon. You know why the Dead Sea is dead? Because everything flows into it and nothing flows out of it. That's why it's dead. Do you know why your life feels dead? Because everybody's pouring into you and you're not pouring into anybody else. Nothing's flowing. So it's. Man, when you get that thing where it's like, dude, this is my thing. This is the thing the Holy Spirit uniquely gave me to do. He empowered me to do this thing. The New Testament calls them spiritual gifts. The Greek word is charismata. Charis means grace. Mata means, means gift. It just means grace gift. So whenever you figure out what that thing is, the Holy Spirit, like deposited in you and you start flowing that thing to other people, you're just going to notice like, it's like she's like breathing fresh air, you know, there's something about it, man. So you get real practical. You, when figure out what your thing is, figure out how it builds up the body of Christ, the church, and then you start pouring that thing out and watch blessing rise in your life.

[C]

So good.

[A]

What y' all got?

[B]

When I, when I pray, I have a list of things to help me just go through things that I need to be reminded of. Prayer. One of my favorite prayers is one I wrote a while back. And I, you know, if somebody's like, I don't know what to do. And, you know, how do I go from here? Like, I would say, you should pray this, ask God to show you. Just say, God, who do you want me to bless today? That I would not expect.

[A]

That's great.

[C]

That's good.

[B]

And I love praying that because when you ask God, God, who do you show me me who you want me to bless, one, it shifts your perspective. Now, it's not just, hey, here's what I want, here's what I need today. Now it's more like, hey, I know you've. You've blessed me already, but you want me to pour that blessing to others. And God has a. A fun way of surprising you with random people, random conversations. And you will know when you pray that prayer in the morning, you will know this is a person that God wants me to bless today that I was not expecting. So that's a quick little practical little prayer.

[A]

This is awesome. This dovetails. Have you ever noticed in Jesus ministry, all his healings, none of them are planned. They're all interruptions. So it's like, dude, there's an old preacher quote that I've never forgotten. He's like, hey, man, every day you need to think this. The interruption is the assignment. Who is the interruption that day? The interruption is the assignment. It's that thing you just said.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Well, what I love about that too is obviously when we do sermons like this, a lot of times a practical next step is serving in the church. And by the way, for sure do that. That's a scriptural thing. I mean, literally, you know, the apostle Paul talks about, he gives the Holy Spirit gives different gifts for the building up of the common good. So for the church, even. I love the body illustration because literally, cancer is when a cell stops living for the good of the whole body and lives for itself. That, by definition, is what a cancer is.

[A]

I gotta get that in my. I gotta get that out of stomach.

[C]

I got that from a guy named Paul Brands, who was once, I think, like surgeon General. Brilliant, brilliant guy. But I mean, that's the idea of cancer. So the idea is so for sure that. But what I love about that is sometimes we just.

[B]

Which, by the way, sorry. PA text serve to 20411. If somebody's like, well, how do I do that? Well, here's how you do it. Like, we want to help you out.

[C]

Exactly. And so, by the way, do that. So all this. What I love about that is, remember, discipleship is becoming like Jesus. So with that even said, discipleship is not Simply about, like, information accumulation. It's about becoming like Jesus. And so if Jesus served, I can't be saying I'm being discipled if I'm not serving like him. But that isn't something that we do once a week is. I love what you're kind of doing, which is like, hey, man, this is just an everyday thing for sure. When I'm at church, oh, yeah, I'll serve my church. But I'm serving just because of who I am, not because it's something I do once. So that's what I love about a. It's not just a once a week thing or twice a week thing. It's just a daily thing of saying, hey, how can I bless someone else besides myself today? Just a couple other tips, really, you were kind of hitting on, which is like, man, if you haven't done that yet, especially think in church context, just try something and if it doesn't work, try something else. Like, if it doesn't work, meaning, like, hey, that just doesn't vibe with you. It doesn't land like, you know, it doesn't like, resonate with you, or it's not your gift. Okay, try somewhere else. Just a lot of people learn what they like and what they're passionate about first by doing it. So if you can't figure it out, just call the church. We'll help you out then with that. If I will say for those who have families, as much as you can serve together, I would say this is a big deal right here, especially for guys, if you have kids. And I say for guys, especially if you have sons, serve together. It's one of the best ways just to bond. It's one of the best ways to have ongoing conversations. So I would say as much as you can serve together, like, even like my wife, she's a teacher, so obviously schedules during the school year hard. During the summer, she serves with our girls at our food pantry.

[A]

That's awesome.

[C]

And so it's just a great thing to do together.

[A]

Other. Yeah, dude, that's. I will say that's a parenting hack. Helping your kids early, like, figure out where a spot in the church is so that they feel like our little thing at home is. We'll say, man, church is the best family business on earth. That's our. We'll say to the kids all the time, church, the best family business on earth. And it's like a very young age, dude, this is a total parenting hack. If you can get your kids from a young age going, man. And I've Got this thing that I'm good at. There's a thing that's meaningful that I can contribute at church. And then they're excited about it. It's just like one. It's one more thing where like, I'm hooking their heart to the principles and purposes of God. And it just. Dude, I'm a hook. I want as many hooks I can because it becomes real hard to walk away from this thing. So, like, Eliana, every week she's serving back in kids ministry. She. She has a blast. By the way, what you're gonna notice on this and you're gonna, if you're not serving in a church, you're gonna think I'm lying. And then you're gonna do it and you're gonna find out that you were wrong and I was right, is when you find that thing that's like your thing and you serve is actually the hour where you're serving is actually the happier hour than when you're receiving. So Eliana is like, every now and then she'll, you know, she'll serve twice. It's like, because she would. She gets more out of the serving than sometimes listening to her dad preach. You know, she's hopping on a little worship team on the midd ministry soon. Felicity's 11, and it's like what we're doing right now is she's shadowing, we're working. Okay, let's shadow on the production team, our social media team. They put a camera in her hands one week. Felicity, why don't you try to take some pictures? She was good at it. Felicity's got the little gift of helps. She's my little quiet servant, you know, so she. Dude, I was so proud. We didn't even know she was doing this. She was walking around this little whatever that thing at concourse on the weekend, and she didn't tell us she did it. And some older ladies in the church told us about this. She saw them, I guess they were like folding bulletins or something. And she just walked up and said, can I help? Just sat there for 30 minutes and folded the little things and put them on the little tables. And then we're, you know, training. Hudson, just don't pee in the hall, bud. You know, it's like baby steps, whether you're on baby steps. But man, I'm just telling you, like, like it's, you know, you want to. You want to kick your kids discipleship into overdrive real early, hook their hearts to some area of service.

[B]

Did you guys do that? When you guys Were kids, like, did.

[A]

Your parents real early, man, you.

[B]

Same everything.

[A]

What. So what did you do?

[B]

How to work literally? Well, my. And I don't know if, like, you know, because there's a little bit of a cultural difference here with, like, American parents, but, like, my. My mom didn't ask me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, she'd just be like, this is what you're doing. Since I was a little kid and.

[A]

I was serving, being an authority, this is literally, like.

[B]

So I remember just, like, being taken to church to serve.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And, you know, I did everything I did from, like, kids bringing moving toys for the kids. I did, you know, youth group, Bible study. And obviously, when you mature, you start realizing, like, oh, like, I want to do this, and, you know, you enjoy it. But, yeah, I did. You know, it worked, looking back.

[A]

Yeah, sure did. Yeah. That's awesome.

[C]

And to your point, I mean, literally, studies have been done that shows that serving is one of the top five things that keep someone in faith if they're doing it from their kids and students. Probably worth doing a podcast sometimes what those top five things are, but serving is one of them that those who serve in the church and part of the body of the church, they're serving when they're young, they tend to stick and are hooked more into it when they get older.

[A]

So, man, I'll just emphasize something Carlos said. If you want to hyperdrive your discipleship, make his discipleship. Text the word surf to the number 20411. Find that thing that the Holy Spirit of God. God empowered you specifically to do. He put you on this planet to do, and you'll be blessed in. In the giving.

[B]

Well, hey, guys, as you know, Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know God, live free, and make a difference. But here's the thing. Movements, by definition, move. And so if you're not moving, then are you really being a part of the movement? In fact, somebody once said that too many churches are. Are like football games. 22 people on the field in desperate need of rest, being watched by thousands of people in the stands in desperate need of exercise. And so, hey, listen, we refuse to be a church like that. God has given each of us gifts and talents that were made to be a part of his movement. And so if you have not yet joined a serve team, I want to invite you to take your next step. Like, right now, Just text the word serve to 20411 and we'll help you find your spot where you can make a difference in person or online, whether that's serving in our digital ministry teams to help out with projects like this podcast or our greeter team, or maybe even serving with our kids team. Whichever serve team. You are being called to go ahead and do that right now. Thank you for being obedient to God's calling in your life. And let's keep doing this together. That's great, man. Hey, we're going to shift gears right now. We are talking about power and authority and serving and the answer to the question who has the power and authority to define what is true actually matters a lot. And especially about things of who God is, who is Jesus.

[A]

We're going Mormonism now.

[B]

What is. That's right. Spirit, Christian life, all those things matter. Eternities are at stake literally because of who gets to define what is true. And so we're going to switch gears and we're going to deep dive Mormon right now. The official name, by the way of Mormonism is not Mormonism. It's actually the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We have a little graphic here. Babylon be member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Wishes there were a shorter way to say member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[A]

That's objectively hilarious.

[C]

Even if you're a Mormon, you have to be.

[A]

That's funny right there.

[B]

That's a long title right there. And so it was founded in 1830 in the United States by Joseph Smith. And it basically claims to be in, quote, restoration of the original Christian church. Reportedly, right now there are over 17.5 million members worldwide. That's 46% of those live in the US and Canada. And Mormons are around like 1 to 2% of the US population. And somebody's like, ah, who are those guys? They're basically like, you've probably seen young men, men on bikes and helmets with white short sleeves, short sleeve shirts and black ties. I get to see him all the time here in Rockwell. I don't know about you. I go to in and out on a regular and they're always there.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So let's talk about this.

[A]

I want to ask like in and out pastor. You know, they're not over there at Whataburger. I don't even know what the joke is.

[C]

I have to admit, it's something I.

[B]

Oh, we're going here.

[A]

Burger.

[C]

I've never eaten Whataburger.

[A]

Oh, bro.

[B]

I was literally gonna say that. I was like, what's the name of that movie? Hey, that is worse than not watching Princess Bride or confusing.

[C]

I know I'm sorry. I was given a 15 gift card. I need. I heard like the.

[A]

Assignment this week.

[C]

I'll do it.

[A]

You got to before the next pie.

[C]

I'll do it.

[A]

And you're going to review Whataburger.

[B]

Do you have a recommendation for what he's should eat in?

[A]

I always just get a double cheeseburger. I like their grilled jalapenos. They have spicy ketchup.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

So I just build my own.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

See, that's what I like about In n out man. It's just a simple double cheeseburger, animal style.

[A]

It's like this big there.

[B]

So did you know there's a Bible verse in the little cup?

[A]

I know.

[C]

Hey.

[B]

Hey, Pastor Josh.

[C]

Sorry, I didn't mean to take it felt like I couldn't judge Mormons for doing that when I, I, I've never had know Whataburger either. But that, that's. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to take a.

[B]

What Bible verse is in the Whataburger cup set?

[A]

I want. Get up, Peter. Peter. Killing eight.

[C]

That's what I was going to guess.

[A]

Get up, Peter.

[B]

You're kidding, right?

[A]

Acts 10. I don't know.

[B]

Okay, well, anyways, so you don't know.

[C]

The answer definitely was not Daniel.

[B]

I don't think there's a Bible. I don't think there's a Bible verse in. I think there is.

[A]

There is.

[B]

I didn't know this.

[A]

Okay, here's what I think.

[B]

I haven't been in Waterburg in a long time.

[A]

Let me start talking about Mormonism.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

And then you look.

[B]

Wait, what?

[A]

Okay, so look, can I talk about the origins?

[C]

Yes, please.

[A]

Let me talk about the origins of Mormonism because. Dude, listen, people do not. I'm going to say something a little, little bit edgy. People don't understand. The birth of Mormonism was literally prophesied in the New Testament. I'm going let that sit. All right, so let me go back. So here. How did Mormonism come about? Let's, let's do this real quick. We're going to answer questions like, are Mormons Christians? What's the difference between Mormonism and Christianity? Isn't it just another denomination? But here's the big idea. Okay, so Joseph Smith. Let's go background here. Joseph Smith, as a teenager, he starts doing something that was called. They called it treasure digging or glass looking where he was. Listen real close. He was using quote unquote special stones to try to locate buried treasures. Like 15, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 years old. Around here. Okay? Now, in his teen years, all this is going to be really important in just a second. In his teen years, he gets arrested and tried for, quote unquote, being a disorderly person. Because what they considered him doing, this is really important, was a form of fortune telling. So bookmark this. This is really important from an early age, Kids walking around with these little special stones trying to, through some spiritual way, figure out where buried treasure is. Bookmark that in your head. That's a big deal. All right, so then in 1823, actually, wait, let me do this in this order, okay? Now stop and think about this. So he's doing this. All right, so then the Bible, remember this? So the Bible explicitly warns over and over again in the Old Testament, have nothing to do with witchcraft, spiritism and the occult. People ask, hey, man, is that stuff real? Yep, it's real demonic. That's why the Bible says, don't anything to do with it. All right, so then the Bible says that. Then you got this kid, he's 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 years old, 14.

[C]

When he has the first vision.

[A]

All right? Yeah, he's messing with these magic stones, okay? Trying to spiritually discern where things are. Why? Because the kid started opening himself up to demonic spirits by messing with things that you see what's going on here when he's. Okay, now let's go a layer deeper. So in Second Corinthians 11:14, number one, we're told that Satan, quote, masquerades as an angel of light. Number two in second Corinthians 11, I'm going to read this to you. It specifically warns about people who will come to you and preach, quote, another Jesus than the one you received. Another Jesus. I'm going to read the verse. For if somebody comes to you and preaches a Jesus different than the Jesus we preach, or if you receive a different spirit, let this sink in from the spirit you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted. He says you put up with it easily enough. He's gone. Who's bewitched you? That's what he says. Then fast forward to the book of Galatians. Galatians 1:8. This is a really important verse for understanding other religions in the world. Galatians 1:8. The apostle Paul says, but if, even if we. Or an angel from heaven comes to you and preaches a different gospel than the one you have received from us, let him be accursed. All right, now keep all that in your head. Have nothing to do with spiritism, occult practices, because it opens the door for demons. Hey, watch out. People might come someday in the power of an evil spirit and preach to you a different Jesus than the one you received. And then, hey, heads up in Galatians, someday something that looks like an angel of light may appear to you and preach a different gospel, a different way to salvation than the one you've received here. And then it just so happens that 1800 years later, little kid named Joseph Smith starts messing around with things that seem to have to do with spiritism in the occult, opening some doors in his life. And then guess what happens to. To him when he's, you know, a few years after his first vision, his second vision, he's out in a field one day and he comes back and he's like, man, this weird thing just happened. An angel of light just appeared to me. An angel named Moroni. Yeah, Moroni, this angel appeared to me. And guess what he did, man. He said that there are these little golden plates that have new revelation on them. And actually everything that we've believed about Jesus for 1800 years is wrong. And I learned about a new Jesus, a new way to think about Jesus, and he gave me a new way to salvation, a new way to be saved. A different gospel, ladies and gentlemen, that is the exact fulfillment of everything the Old and New Testament said would happen. Spiritism in the equation. Difficult. Opening doors to unholy spirits. Yeah, A different Jesus and another gospel presented by an angel from heaven masquerading as an angel of light. And that is how you got the birth of Mormonism right there.

[C]

And what's interesting is two. Two connections kind of from that, or at least alongside that one would be that both Mormons and Muslims go to the same passage in the Old Testament, say, oh, this prophesied about us.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Isaiah 29.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And Muslims would say, oh, this is prophesying about Muhammad and the Quran. And then Mormons would say, nope, this was about Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon. And what's interesting about both of them is how does. How do both of them happen? An angel appears to them alone, with no other witnesses in an isolated spot, and basically says, hey, all these other people have gotten it wrong, but we have the right stuff that we can give you.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And so even though sometimes when I interact with. With Muslims, because they'll say, oh, but continuing revelation, I'm like, well, then listen, pretty much Muslims make the same claims, not the same theology, but make some of the same claim that we got it wrong. God appeared to you Alone, with no proof, he gave you further revelation. So why are you right and not Muslims? What's the verse thing? It is Isaiah 29, and then it's, I think, verses 11 through 12. Vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, read this. He says, I cannot, for it is sealed. So Muslims would say, oh, see, he was illiterate. And then this one, Mormons would do a little bit of a spin, saying, hey, like another guy couldn't read it. Joseph Smith was these seer stones to be able to interpret the tablets that were given by Moroni. The golden tablets.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Or that. But I say that he found in a mountain in New York, apparently. So just the point is, what both Islam and Mormonism have in common, or they have so much not in common, is that they basically say, hey, Christians have gotten it wrong. God appeared to us alone and gave us the real truth.

[B]

And what is it actually about?

[C]

Oh, that would be in context. It's simply about that the people of God are refusing the revelation of God because it goes on. The Lord said, because this people draw near me with their mouth and honor me with the lips, while their hearts are far from me, their fear of me is a commandment taught by men. So what's going on? The surrounding context is they're refusing revelation. It's not about a future prophet.

[A]

Dude, I'll dovetail that. And what I said a second ago, Trinity, will you toss that picture of the little. Okay, check this out, man. So right now, on the top of Mormon temples, when you drive by one, you're going to see that little golden statue. That golden statue is a statue of Morona. So literally, what is visually depicted is a demon named Moroni is on the top of Mormon temples, establishing, this is my dominion. Yep, that's. This is my dominion. Exact fulfillment of Galatians 1:8 and all these things.

[C]

And then with that, I was. I was so going to say in the first vision. So Joseph Smith, this is around the time of the Second Great Awakening. It's right in the middle of the Second Great Awakening. Got all these things happening, different denominations. So he goes out into the woods and says, okay, God, which church is the true church? And then he says he has a vision of two different persons. And this is his whole basis of believing the Father and Son are two completely distinct beings. And they say, none of them. They're basically all wrong. And so when you talk about it's a restoration, like people have to understand, Christians have to understand like, oh, it's just another denomination. Like, well, one thing. A, that's wrong, B, we have to understand. And they say we are all wrong. They basically say that after the time of the apostles, immediately after the apostles died, heresy crept in. So they basically say everyone else before us has gotten it wrong and we're the right ones. And so we're here to tell you the right way.

[A]

Which is honestly, it can be a little frustrating because you watch, if you watch, go back to the two episodes ago where I did the ranking Bible translations, burn the Book of Mormon thing and then you watch the comments to this dude, they'll get real up in arms. So you're saying that we're not part of you and you're saying that we're the ones that are wrong. It's like, bro, your whole thing is built on everyone's wrong. But, but you, that's like your whole thing is built on that.

[C]

This, this kind of says real fast. Like even with that, when you're talking with them a lot, what they'll get to in Mormon apologetics is, well, hey, you know, there were the Aryans who actually believe that Jesus was a created being. They'll appeal to other heresies saying, hey, these beliefs weren't settled. But if you actually go look at those heresies, none of them believe what Mormons believed.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So they'll take little aspects of heretical teaching that by our powers combined would make Captain Mormonism, which is just all the basic heresies combined. But what's interesting is even they would say all those then heresies, they're aspects they didn't believe. So basically they're saying all of historic Christianity, all the heresies were wrong, but we're right because an angel appeared to us alone and revealed it to us.

[A]

That's right. So let's do this. I'm going to finish giving like a brief, like two minute history of the birth of Mormonism. Let me finish this. And then Paul, will you take us through specific doctrinal distinctives differences between Christianity and Mormonism. And then we're going to answer some like very frequently shouted questions. Okay, so I already got. So you got the, When Joseph Smith's teenager, he's doing the treasure digger, glass looker thing. Thing. Okay, so obviously what happens, he has two visions and the second, the second vision is 1823. That's when the angel Moroni comes to him and tells him, hey man, there's ancient record on these golden plates that are buried near your home. That's what he reports. This, this quote unquote angel from heaven, this angel of light says to him the plates contained. This is what he reported. The plates contained a record of an ancient people that migrated from the Middle east to America around 600 BC. That's what he reports. Now what he says the angel says is that those were the ancestors of the Native Americans. So he's trying to give an origin myth to where the Native Americans came from. What he says is recorded in the golden plates is that Jesus Christ appeared to them, the Native, the early Native Americans after the resurrection and he established his church. Church and that now if I'm understanding this right, the last prophet, who I guess whose name was Mormon, if I understand this correctly, put the record down on these golden plates hundreds of years earlier and that his son Moroni buried them. So I guess the angel and this dude had the same name and there's some link there. So then what happens is they go to translating the golden plates translation process. What Joseph Smith claimed is that he received the plates in 1827 and translated them over the next few years. That's what he says. Now here's where it gets honestly a little weird. Smith didn't actually, this is what he reports, didn't actually look at the plates to translate them. And Paul, you can fact check any of this if you've heard differently. According to eyewitness accounts, I'm reading this to make sure I get it correct, including his wife Emma Smith would put a quote seer stone into a hat, bury his face in the hat to block out the light and then dictate the translation while the plates weren't even in the right room. This was apparently the same type of like quote unquote sear stone that he used as a teenager when he was hired to find all the buried treasure stuff. Okay, now this is an important note. Joseph Smith had 11 guys later sign a statement saying that they had seen the plates. Now a little bit of a problem here is that later a whole bunch of admit admitted they never saw the plates. They just saw them in a spiritual.

[C]

Sense, a vision, not physical sense.

[A]

So this is, you know, you got to. And then on the plates was recorded new revelation about the nature of God, Jesus Christ and the way to salvation. A couple quick disturbing. I'm going to give a couple little disturbing facts and I'm going to kick it to you Paul and we can talk differences here. Joseph Smith is, this is, by the way, this is not even debatable, had 30 to 40 wives. So a very accomplished Polygamist. His youngest wife was 14 years old. Joseph Smith was sealed. That's what they call like a spiritual marriage to 10 to 15 women who were married to other men at the same time. So like just a total womanizer, you know, in at least one sense. Became a freemason, was part of the whole freemasonry movement. In 1835, he prophesied that Jesus would return to Missouri within 56 years. That didn't happen.

[C]

Nope.

[A]

Now, besides, in the sense of omniscience and the presence of the Holy Spirit, I don't think Jesus ever been to Missouri, at least in those senses. And then he also prophesied to the lit.

[B]

Free nation.

[A]

Man, we love our nation.

[B]

We're so glad you guys join us.

[C]

By the way.

[A]

He also prophesied, I'm going to quote it, this generation shall not pass away until a house shall be built unto the Lord in Zion. Mazar, Missouri. So it's like, man, honestly, dude, you just got like actual explicit things he prophesied would happen that like just didn't happen. And then this kind of gets into your stuff. But Lorenzo Snow, the fifth president of the LDS Church, this is where you get into. They just, they do not believe. So here's the deal, and Paul's gonna get into this and we gotta do this quick. Here's the deal, here's the deal. Mormons use the same glossary as us, but different dictionaries.

[C]

Amen.

[A]

They use the same words, which can trip up a bunch of people, but when they use the words, they mean totally different things. So they use words like God the Father, Jesus Christ, Lucifer, salvation, exaltation, all the things, they use those words, but when they say them, they mean completely different things than Christians mean. So for instance, Lorenzo Snow, fifth president of the Latter Day Saint Church, he said, said direct quote, as man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. So Paul's going to get into this. What they believe is that God the Father was once just a dude like us on a different planet. And then he went through an exaltation process to become God, the Father of his own universe. And that, you know, the same thing can happen to you. You. If you go through an exaltation process that I've got, you know, outlined here and all the things. So Paul, do you want to just real quick take us through. Yeah, take us through some differences here so people can understand.

[C]

You said, well, this is not. We have to be so careful because we share. Share the same vocabulary, but not the same dictionary. And that actually really matters. Because like, let's just use this personal connect with people. If someone tells me, I really love your wife, Amy, and I'm like, oh, thanks. And then they begin describing her. If they end up describing someone who's not my wife.

[A]

Wife, yeah.

[C]

Then it doesn't matter. They're referring to a fundamentally different person. And so like, oh, words don't matter. I'm like, they actually really do matter. Because in the same way that my wife wants to be known and loved for who she really is, God wants to be known, loved, and worshiped for who he truly is as well. Now, the hard thing in this is, man, you, it's like, pick where to start. Because if we were having, like, if you were a Mormon and we were having a conversation, we could be talking for weeks or hours because you pick a word or a concept and we mean very different things by them. And so usually when I, when I do this, I like to actually start with if I'm, if you're a Mormon, would say, hey, man, I was actually reading something from your LDS president and then from other people probably was called the quorum of the 12, which is the second highest body just below the president. And they said, hey, the biggest places where we fundamentally disagree, although, hey, you, you would say you're a Christian. I would disagree. The biggest place we disagree with was called the Godhead. So the idea of the Trinity and the idea of further revelation, and you know, I'm like, I agree. So let's just talk there, by the way, in a minute. We can hit some other things, some differences, but like, hey, let's focus on that, that. And so where I like to actually go with them is to say, okay, so let me get this straight. You don't accept the Trinity. And they would say, no. I'm like, well, why not? We're like, hey, that was an invention. Later that happened 300 years after the time apostles, they invented something based on Greek philosophy. And if you just read the Bible, it's self evident that that's not true. The easiest way to read the Bible is say, hey, there's three separate beings. Or super. In the same way that right now we're three separate guys, although we share the same common name, nature, we're three separate guys. We have three different minds, three different roles. All those kinds of things that if you read the Bible is very evident that there's three different gods. You've got Elohim, who's the father, Yahweh, who is the Son, and the Spirit who is then The Spirit. So you have three separate gods. And I say, okay. So then I say, so you're saying they're polytheists?

[A]

Yes, they're actual.

[C]

Some would say they're not. But I'm like, guys, the different. And this is going to sound offensive, but it's just the truth that Mormonism has more in common with Greek pagan polytheism than it does with Christianity. That Muslims theology is actually closer to our theology than Mormon theology, even though they use the same words.

[A]

Because they're monoterms.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Because they're monotheists. That's part of why you're not Christians is you are literally like, if I put down like a spectrum, monotheist on one side, polytheists on the other side, you're on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Because it's like, hey, the idea of like Greek pagan polytheism. Zeus had a child, they shared a common nature, but they had different roles in the universe. There's no fundamental difference in concept between that.

[B]

But there's would disagree with that.

[C]

They would say, they would try to w go many. Some of them would say, oh, no, like, because the. Jesus was a created being, God is the ultimate God. Like Father, the Father's the ultimate God. I'm like, no, no. Like the concept of he had a child with the Heavenly mother, like, that is literally Greek pagan policy. Okay, but so like, I'd say, okay, so you don't believe in it. So. But it sounds like what you're saying is, hey, a doctrine that appears long after the original revelation, and that wasn't originally believed by the covenant people because it was self evident, can't be trusted. And they see. I'm like, okay, I actually don't want to talk about, about the Son or the Holy Spirit. That usually throws them off when I say that because they're expecting us to get into debate over this. And they're like, well, guess what? Aryans believe that the Son of the Caribbean. Like, you know. Yeah. And I usually see territory and I say, yeah, you're right. Let's talk about the Father. They're like, okay. I'm like, okay. So like all throughout Christian history, no one until the 1800s when Joseph Smith came along believed that the Father was a separate God than Yahweh. They always believed Elohim and Yahweh were one. And going back before Christians, if you go back to Jewish people, no Jew ever believed that God the Father was once a man who became a God, or that Elohim and Yahweh were different gods. Like think of the Shema, the Lord, Yahweh, our God, Elohim. So Yahweh, our Elohim, The Lord is one. Psalm 103 literally says Yahweh is Elohim. So just explicitly, no one would have believed this. So you're telling me no one ever believed this until Joseph Smith came along and gave you this revelation privately? But you earlier told me that my belief in the Trinity and the Trinity for those who are not too familiar, I.e. that there is one God, but He has three eternal distinct ways of being that one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Very complicated. Don't have enough time to do a complete deep dive.

[A]

One what three who's.

[C]

Exactly. One what three who's. So you're saying, hey, that can't be legitimate because it came too far after. But I have to believe you, even though you believe something about the Father that no one before you believed. So that to me is actually one of the huge key differences I start with, because if you say, hey, the Father is a different what? He's a different one and who. He's a different being. And then Yahweh is a different one. You are a polytheist and you're fundamentally on the different spectrum. And you are not a Christian because Christians are monotheist. But we're also. This is important. Sorry if I'm getting too much in the weeds. I just think like this. I usually start here because on all the other stuff, if you can just get to the Father, I find that it's the most like, it's the biggest one, because there, again, there's been no debate. You can't say, hey, people have differed on thought. No one has ever has. Where this matters for people who not be aware is that if you establish that everyone has always believed that Elohim and Yahweh were the same God, well, all of a sudden when you get to the New Testament and you see see things attributed to Jesus that were attributed to Yahweh in the Old Testament, all of a sudden it's really hard to not say he is that one God in some way. We have to articulate how. But he is that one God in some kind of capacity. So, for example, we love Isaiah 6, right?

[B]

That.

[C]

That vision of the glory of God when John says that Jesus's glory. But in Isaiah 6, it's clear that that is the glory of Yahweh, the one God. And so I usually start with the Father, and then their objection will usually be like, well, hey, we've got further revelation, like there's things that came later. And hey, actually Christians, you develop doctrine later too. Like here's the distinction. We didn't invent something new later. We clarified what had always been there.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[C]

That there's this idea that orthodoxy follows heresy. And what I mean by that is not that we invented it, is that hey, these are the things we believe. And then when those things are challenged, it forces us to communicate clearly what we had always believed.

[A]

All the councils are in response to the rise of a heresy. So then if the heresy comes, then we clarify the orthodoxy.

[C]

It's the same way as like when people, oh hey, in the history of Christianity, people really didn't talk about trans ideology because we didn't have a thing. Yeah, it was assumed to be a thing. And then when it's challenged, all of a sudden we have to get really, really clear on it.

[A]

I want to point out something he just said. So here's what I want to to do, like let's bookmark and bullet point like rapid fire differences between Mormonism and Christian orthodoxy. One of the. I'm going to do one. One of the ones you just said is when it comes to the scriptures, this is a big dagum deal right here. So number one for Christians is the Bible. We got the Bible. For Mormons, they have four scriptures. Number one, the Bible, by the way, in their words, as far as it is translated correctly because they believe parts are corrupt. Oh, by the way, this is what everybody incorrectly lambasted me for two episodes ago in the comments saying that I was an idiot for saying that there was a Mormon Bible translation. Honestly, a lot of Mormons don't know this. Yes, there is the JST, the Jehovah Smith translation. Joseph Smith, sorry, Joseph Smith, 3,000 verses either added or edited. So they've got the Bible. As far as it's translated correctly, they believe parts are corrupted. The Book of Mormon, that's the translation of the golden, Golden Plates, the Doctrine and Covenants and then the Pearl of Great Price, which includes like a Book of Abraham and some other stuff. And they believe that whoever is the current LDS president is capable of receiving new revelation. Which by the way, that's why this is a little, we can get into this if you want to. That's why they can say, hey, we used to affirm polygamy, but we don't anymore because we've received new revelation or hey, a lot of people to know this. The Mormon Church used to black used to bar Black people, that African American people could not be members of the Mormon Church. And why did that change? Well, we've received new revelation.

[B]

Yeah. Which happens to be also during the civil rights era as well.

[A]

Whoopsie daisy. It just so happens that's when the new revelation came.

[C]

And in the early lds, LDS church, you feel like Brigham Young and others who basically said, hey, there's an eternal procession of gods before. Before God the Father. Because if the idea is, if he was once a man who became exalted, then where did he come from? So the early writers in LDS would say, hey, there is actually those that came before him. Now they back off that and they say that's not official doctrine. Why? Because it's untenable. Like even just rational.

[A]

Doesn't make a logical sense.

[C]

It doesn't make logical sense. Yeah, go ahead.

[A]

Well, why don't you bullet. Like let's bullet point and rapid fire. Mormonism is here and we're here. What are the major.

[C]

I think we just kind of. The thing I just established even like with the idea of the Father, a huge distinction is the idea like, hey, we believe that there is one God who turns three persons. One what? Three who's. They would believe in three different separate beings. So more polytheistic. When it comes to Jesus, we would say he is the eternal Son of God who was, did not create and did not have a beginning. Mormonism would say he was a spirit child of the Father. So he had a beginning. There was a time when the Son did not exist. We would say there has never been a time that the Son did not exist.

[A]

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. And the Word. The Word was God.

[C]

He was God. Key thing there. Even like in LDS belief, he was promoted from being a man to being God. So he actually did not receive full exaltation to Godhood until after his resurrection and exaltations the Father. So he had to go through a similar process that the Father did, which.

[A]

They think we have the ability to do.

[C]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Basically, there are forerunners also. They believe that Lucifer is a spirit spirit brother. We do not.

[A]

Yeah, Jesus and Lucifer were spirit brothers.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

The offspring of the Father and some spiritual mother that we really don't know anything about.

[C]

Yep, Yep. I'll do one if you want to. You want to find out, like Mormonism would say, salvation involves grace plus good works.

[A]

Yeah. This is a big deal. Right.

[C]

And that you have to do. Temple ordinances are required for exaltation, whereas historic Christianity would Say, Pastor Josh, that it is not grace. It's not grace plus work. It is grace alone through faith alone.

[A]

Yeah. In fact, will you toss that thing up? Trinity that has the. Actually, no, you don't need to. You don't need to. I'm going to read it. Yeah, I'm going to read it. So here you go. Mormons distinguish between, quote, general salvation, which refers to resurrection, which everybody gets, and exaltation. So they differentiate general salvation. Exaltation. Exaltation is the highest level of heaven where you can become a God. To achieve exaltation, here's the process, okay? Faith in Jesus Christ, Repent of sins. Baptized by a proper LDS priesthood authority. Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Receive the temple endowment. That's special ceremonies in LDS temples. Temples. Be married in a temple. It's a celestial marriage. That's part of the whole deal. Pay a full tithe, 10% of your income, obey the word of wisdom. That's the whole. Where they get the whole. No alcohol, no coffee, no tea, no tobacco, and endure faithfully until the end of your life. Okay. So then they have these little, you know, temple interviews where you have to answer questions like, hey, are you a full tithe payer? Do you keep the word of wisdom? Do you sustain the prophet as God's mouthpiece on earth? Are you morally clean? Do you wear your temple garments? That's the whole holy underwear joke thing. Do you wear the temple garments as instructed? And all that stuff. So there's your. There's your salvation exaltation process.

[C]

You can keep going 100%. Let's just talk even like humanity and attorney. So like historic Christianity would. Historic Christianity would say humans are created being who had no existence until their physical creation. Their physical creation. Whereas Mormonism would say, no, we are spirit children of God the Father, who then become basically incarnate into a body. We're created into a body. So we have. They would say, no, we had a premortal existence. And then also the idea, to your point, we can become gods. Whereas we would say no. Like we are made in the image of God and we can be saved by God. And for eternity we will worship God, but not in the sense of that we will become like, as you read earlier, the quote, that we will somehow become like God in the sense of. Become what he is now in some kind of.

[A]

Yeah, this is important. So Christianity, God became a man.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Mormonism, man can become gods.

[C]

Exactly, exactly. Also, even like in Mormonism, there's actually three different experiences of heaven. And there is no eastern eternal hell. So eventually, in a sense, everyone becomes saved.

[A]

Are they functional annihilationists or has. Are they kind of universal redemption?

[C]

Kind of. So basically it's the idea that eventually everyone will repent. But there's three different layers. So there's like the best layer of heaven, which is just for Mormons. There's a second layer, which I believe is, by the way, all of us. So we get to heaven, but we.

[A]

Just get like junior JV heaven.

[C]

Yeah, JV heaven. Like suburban middle class heaven. We're not. We're not in the richest part. And then there's a third level for people who complete unbelievers. But eventually they eventually come to believe and they're like at the ghetto shadow of heaven, I guess, kind of a thing. Kind of a thing. So like, let's just say that like they redefined humanity and redefine humanity's eternal destiny.

[A]

It's the Missouri of Heaven.

[C]

Listeners.

[A]

We love you, Missouri Nation.

[C]

Oh, gosh, we really do love you.

[B]

We really like you guys.

[C]

I'm saying. And I'm a Cubs fan, so I'm trying to hide some distance. I have. Yeah. Well, even, like, let's just even say so far what Mormon and redefines, because we talked about how same words, different dictionary.

[A]

What's the deal with being baptized for dead people? Do you know?

[C]

It's kind of the idea I believe. I, I'm not. I haven't done as much research this. I don't want to speak more than.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't want to speak out of turn.

[C]

Exactly. Because the last thing I want is people taking clip. Actually, that's not what we believe kind of a thing. But, but yeah. So Mormonism, so what we talked about.

[A]

You look it up.

[C]

They redefine God, they redefine Christ, they redefine eternal destiny, they redefine biblical revelation, and they redefine the gospel, salvation.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So again, it's just an example how, like, we say the same words, but we mean completely different things by them. And here's what I will say. Like, everyone has faulty theology.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[C]

Everyone does. The only person has perfect theology is God himself.

[A]

So let me, let me. You're already answering this question, but let me phrase the question as somebody, because do we have Mormon listeners?

[B]

You want to talk about the.

[A]

Let me do this. And then you talk about the baptism for the dead thing. So let me phrase it like, like somebody who. Let's say, dude, we got a bunch of people by the Way we have tons of former Mormons who got saved and are now members at Lake Point, like, way more than anybody would realize. So let's say it's somebody who. They've got a Mormon family member. It's never, honestly, they've never even thought about, like, dude, are they actually like, not a Christian? They never thought about that. And so there's an emotional aspect. And what they're saying, Paul, they might say something like, man, but isn't this just like a different denomination? Like, isn't that, you know, like, you know, the Lutherans, they have some different beliefs than you guys as Baptists, but we're all Christian. Right. So like, what would you say to that?

[C]

Oh, but it's actually a tactic of the LDS Church right now. It is a huge tactic of saying, hey, we're just another denomination kind of thing. Basically, people are being gaslit into that. And so I'd say, hey, for sure, we all. And within denominations, for example, and that would say, hey, different denominations disagree on things of theology. And by the way, yes, we do, but we do something called, called theological triage.

[A]

This is important. Listen real, if you're a listener, listen really close.

[C]

I wish if I had known this, I would put the triangle on the screen for us right now. But if you can imagine a triangle at the top, first order issues, middle, second order issues, third, at the very bottom, third order issues. There are certain things, this actually started at the bottom. There's certain things that if we disagree upon, all right, we have different opinions, but it doesn't mean we have a different God. It doesn't even mean that we should go to a different church. Like there's things, unfortunately, frankly, usually it's most times more conservative people will take third order issues and take them to second order issues, say, nope, I can't even be the same church as you if I disagree with you. Okay. A second order issue is usually the idea of like, hey man, we are still brothers and sisters in Christ, but we probably shouldn't be part of the same church or denomination. So like make this very practical. Like if you want to start and I want to start a church together, but you want to do infant baptism and I want to do believers baptism, that's going to be really hard.

[A]

Better idea just to have two different churches. Yeah. And.

[C]

But we can still partner together in other things. But in terms of that, that's going to be really hard kind of to do together. There's first order. So third order, if we disagree of different opinions, second order, if we disagree probably should have a different church domination, first order things that if you and I disagree on, we have a different faith.

[A]

Yeah. There's a certain set of. This is really important. And then I want you to keep talking. There is a certain set of doctrines that are so important that if you do not believe those things, you are no longer in a meaningful sense a Christian.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So and what you're saying is, hey man, denominations are Christians who disagree on second order issues and third order issues. Different religions are where we disagree on first order issues. And because Mormons disagree on the nature of God, the nature of Jesus, the nature of salvation, these are first order issues. Hey man, this is a national boundary, not a state boundary.

[C]

Exactly. Well, even thinking about there's a reason why I focus because we could focus on so many different categories of things we believe different things on baptism, like you're going to hit here in a second. But the reason I picked these is because literally you can get Bible verses that say, like for example, if you preach a different gospel, let them be accursed. Even if it's an angel in heaven. Book of Revelation, anyone who adds to the words of these books, basically the idea of let them be accursed. A big one that most people miss, but it's so important on this one is. And if you go to the book of Exodus, go to the Golden Calf issue.

[A]

Dude, hey, listen real close right here. This is really important.

[C]

This is very important because this, because kind of getting in, connecting, hey, if you redefine the gospel, you're accursed. If you redefine God scripture, you're a curse. And if you redefine God, So if you look at the Golden Calf issue, they hey, make God's force. But if you actually go, I believe it's Aaron who says, tomorrow we're holding a festival to who? To the Lord.

[A]

It says Yahweh to Yahweh. So when you, this is really important. When you look in your Bible, when Aaron says this is a golden calf, it's an idol, demonic idol. And Aaron says, tomorrow we're holding a festival. And your English Bible is going to say to the Lord. And if you look in your English Bible, Bible, notice Lord is in all caps. Anytime you see Lord in all caps in the Old Testament, that's the way that your English Bible is signifying. It's the word Yahweh, which is the proper name of God. So point out why that's important that Aaron said that.

[C]

Oh, it's so it's so important because they think oh, by doing this, we're attributing worship to God. God shows up and it's like, you know what? Your hearts were great. Your hearts were great. Hey, you use the same words. You meant different, you know, different things. But hey, it's all good. It's all the same thing. No, God, God is ticked. And if you look at the rest of the Old Testament when it refers this, it talks about them worshiping idols and basically different gods. And by the way, to your point, you're saying earlier in the New Testament what we see, Paul says, hey, people who think they're offering worship to an idol is offering a worship to who? A demon?

[A]

Demons. Demons.

[C]

And so God isn't cool if you use the same names, but you mean different things by them.

[A]

So what's the deal with the being baptized for God people?

[B]

You know, it's interesting, I actually have distant family members who are leaders in the multiple Mormon church. And so I've actually heard in El Salvador. Yeah, some of them live there and some of them live in, if I'm not mistaken, in Utah. Okay, so I've heard this from them before here. So basically like what happens is a living temple worthy Mormon goes to an LDS temple and they will perform an ordinance on behalf of somebody who has been, who has died. And so they can do baptisms for the dead, confirmation of the Holy Ghost, endowment ceremony, sealing eternal marriage family. And then what?

[A]

They can get married to the dead person, Have a spiritual marriage with a dead person.

[B]

They do an ordinance that does performs a ceiling and it says here that's an eternal marriage family. And so what happens is LDS theology teaches that after death the soul goes to the spirit world and missionary work continues there and the deceased person is taught Mormonism and they can either accept the proxy ordinance and then they continue to progress to get to exaltation, or they can reject it and then there's no exaltation. And so if the dead person accepts the teaching, they get to exaltation. If they, and then they receive whatever the ordinance is. And so what, what I, a lot of these folks will do, they'll go back into their family trees and then they'll do that for the, the dead members of the family to try to get them to the next level and then ultimately exaltation.

[A]

Paul, is the on the deal where they barred black people from being church members until the civil rights movement. Was that a curse of ham thing? I bet it was.

[C]

I pro, if I had to guess, and this is one I'm always careful with this and when we do that, while you're looking that up, even, even for our listeners who, who aren't Mormons, when you're interacting with Mormons or anyone, it's really important, actually, if you can, to try to say things in a way that they would agree with. So even when I was, the reason why I walked through, I did earlier is kind of even trying to model. Have the conversation of like, I will often ask, hey, is what I'm saying accurate of what you believe? Because I don't want to create a caricature. Because then it's going to be hard. Because I always tell people in these conversations, obviously there are times that we just got to blast out truth. Like right now, especially when there's false teachers.

[A]

We're teaching people who are primarily Christians.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. But when I'm having a conversation with someone, I have to ask myself, am I trying to win or am I trying to win them over?

[A]

That's good.

[C]

If I'm trying to win, yeah, I can just go at them and try to just drop truth bombs at them. But if I'm actually trying to win them over to the truth, man, I'm going to try to get them to the truth, but just using a little bit of a different tactic. So while you're looking that up, at least wanted to put it that that's why I did the approach earlier. Just trying to modify saying, hey, do you actually believe this? And then saying, okay, well then based on that, let's think about that kind of a thing.

[B]

That's good.

[C]

You get Pastor Josh or you me to.

[A]

It does look like if people are unfamiliar. No. So Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Noah gets drunk and one of his sons, quote, looks upon his nakedness. And if I remember, I'm trying to find the verse. I. I think it's in Genesis 9 where it says that God put a mark on him. On Ham. On his. Does it say his skin? I can't remember, but it says that God put a mark on him in some way. And what's. What racist people did, like actual racist people did for a long time, is they would say that that black skin was the mark of the curse of Ham. To try to say that African American people were in some way, like, actually spiritually inferior. Obviously, we believe the exact opposite of this. Let me just make very. The exact opposite of this. But yeah, actually, from what I'm reading, it looks like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both take this with a grain of salt. I wish I could have researched this more. It looks like both of them did agree with barring African American people from church membership as a curse of ham interpretation, if I'm reading this correctly. But grain of salt.

[B]

So they would, they would probably disagree like today, modern Mormon church would reject those affirmations today.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is again, it's a progressive revelation of a prophet, somebody else coming in and saying actually this is what we believe now.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because like even then it's like, hey, I have a new word from God. Whereas we would say no, no, we want to go to the word once for all, delivered by God to us. It's like even bringing this all together again. If I was just talking with you guys for moments, we were having a conversation, I'd say hey, as kindly as I can say, no, I do not believe you're a Christian because you reject something like your view of God comes 1800 years later. It contradicts every prophet, every apostle, every Jew, every early Christian again by the way, every heretical Christian sect because they, none of them would believe exactly what belief. So it contradicts all of that and is based on a 14 year old's private vision of God in the woods by himself. And so if lateness disqualifies doctrine, Mormonism disqualifies itself. There you go. Like by its own definitions. And so with this, because some people will then fire back what? Well, hey, like, but man, it's changed millions of people's lives and this in the Book of Mormon has helped millions of people. And I'm like, as kindly as I can say it, that doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter because I could say that of every religion and its holy book in the world, like Satan.

[A]

Is fine with you becoming a more moral, happier person on your way to hell. He's totally great with that, totally good with that.

[C]

Because like, man, you know what? Like as people don't get this but like guess what, Muslims, it's helping their lives.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In the Quran many would say, hey, it's helped me be a better person. Same thing with Buddha, same thing with Hinduism, all that kind of stuff. It doesn't matter. First I say first because we, we do believe the truth will make your life better. We believe following the way Jesus better. But that doesn't first matter. What first matter is, is this true meaning? Does it point me to the one true God who wants to be known, loved and worshiped for who he truly is?

[A]

Yeah, dude, yeah. Just like I talk to people in the lobby all the time. Hey man, I wasn't A Christian and I got a car accident and it woke me up to my need for God and I. And actually the car was a good thing. Hey man, just because a car accident helped you, that doesn't mean I'm starting a car accident ministry, you know. Okay, let's just rapid fire this real fast, Paul, and give me a two sentence answer. So for Mormon people, you know what they'll say is, man, I prayed and I read the Book of Mormon and I felt the language they'll use is I felt a burning in my bosom, a burning in my heart. And that's how God confirmed for me through this burning in my heart. I know it's true.

[C]

Well, I'm pretty sure the people at the Council of Nicaea would have said the same thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So like, in other words, like, what if I felt that burning into my heart and it's the opposite of what you said?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So like, this isn't a two sentence answer, but there's a girl one time who really liked me. Like, but for me, I know this is bad for all my female listeners. You're like, oh, you jerk. But it just said, what is like, she was like, man, I, I prayed that if these feelings weren't from God, he would take them away. And Paul, not only has God not taken away, they've gotten stronger. I did not say what I'm about to say. For the record, I'm not a jerk. But in my head I thought, because then she said God gives us our feelings for a reason, which is basically what you just said. And in my head I thought, well, maybe God gives us our lack of feelings for a reason too.

[A]

And I don't got them.

[C]

And so in other words, like her thing was, hey, my feelings, how I'm feeling, like that is the truth. And I'd say, well, the problem with that is I could say the same thing. And I'm feeling something opposite of you. And I believe something opposite of you.

[A]

Yeah, what I would. I'll just dovetail it. Hey man, do you know who else can give you a burning in your heart? Satan.

[C]

That's exactly right.

[A]

Satan can. And so it's like, man, the other thing I'd say is burning in your bosom. Hey, that happened to me when I saw the end of Toy Story 2. That doesn't mean my kids toys come to life when they all go to sleep. It's like, hey man, this is not an arbiter of truth.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Okay, let me say, do you have any last comments here?

[C]

Those are my big things here.

[A]

Any final comments? Comments here.

[B]

I mean, 1st Peter 3:15, but in your hearts, revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. Bible causes to destroy arguments and also to love people.

[C]

Just two things I'm glad you actually brought up. I was trying to keep it short, so I didn't say this earlier, but I will say, if you're interacting with a Mormon, that is what you said earlier is exactly what most of them will say if you back them in kind of a logical corner. Like when I was talking about earlier, God the Father. My experience is that's their default because that's what they've been trained. The holy spir told me this and you can't contradict that. And I'm like, but that again, is true of everybody. Anyone could say that, of their experience. And so with that, I usually actually like to then put the ball in their court because that's their cop. I'm okay, I'll literally go to what I said earlier. I'm like, hey, you told me, like, what the church believed in the 4th century, but they felt in their heart too, so why are you right and they're wrong and I put the ball back in their court. A second thing I was to say, hey, you know, we've been covering Mormonism, but there's so many other false teachings out there around different, you know, cults and beliefs and everything like that. And it's almost impossible. It pretty much is impossible if you're average person to know the real things and the right beliefs in response to all the false teachings. And so, you know, I think this is a pretty common one. At least I've been taught it is. The idea of, hey, when they're training people how to spot counterfeit money, they don't train them in all the different counterfeits because there's too many. Instead, what they train them on is the real thing, the real money. And so I'd say, hey, for Christians out there, I wouldn't say, hey, you need to do a deep dive on Mormonism and on Islam and all that. Most people don't have time. Instead, what I would say is, hey, man, deep dive on the real thing found in God's unchanging word. And then also digging into what the church has historically believed throughout all time on that unchanging word. If you'll come to know the real thing, you'll be able to spot the fake thing way faster. Yep.

[A]

Hey, I'll just do one last thing. Trinity. Will you throw up that book? So we've got one of our church planters, Jason Parrish, shout out. He's in Salt Lake City, so he's got thousands of converted Mormons at his church. So before this episode, I text Jason and I was like, hey, dude, what's the one Go to book? I was like, hey, if you got a. If you got a Mormon friend or a Mormon family member, give me the one book that's the best thing to hand them. He said, this is the one right here. Do you got it? All right. It's called Unveiling Grace, the story of how we found Our way out of the Mormon Church by Lynn K. Wilder. So that guy right there is. And he's actually the second person I've heard that from, so it must have be legit. So if you got somebody, that's your book. We're going to put that in the show notes. They can get the show notes by.

[B]

Downloading the Lake Point app.

[A]

There you go. Download the Lake Point app.

[B]

You'll find that in the discipleship guide.

[A]

Carlos, will he close us in prayer?

[B]

Absolutely. Heavenly Father, we thank you so much because you said, I am the way, I am the truth, and I am the light and the life. And so we. We right now, we. We pray for your. Your presence, your wisdom, man, as we reflect on. On Mark, chapter 10 and how. How you teach us to pursue a posture of being servants. We pray that you may allow us to fix our focus and our eyes on you, Jesus. We may continue to grow, to become more like you, seek greatness like you did. Father, we pray for every listener right now. May you give us wisdom to love people and to destroy arguments with conviction, with grace, with humility and love. Father, we pray for those that might be listening right now, right now, that maybe they're in the Mormon Church or maybe they're wrestling with doubts about what they believe about God, the Bible, Jesus. Father, I pray that you may open eyes, that you may destroy lies that you may bring to salvation and people that are maybe unsure but the Holy Spirit, that you may move in them, that you may show them who you are. And ultimately, may we just point other people to Jesus, Give us wisdom to love other people as well. This way, that we may continue to proclaim the only name that is above every name and that is an name of Jesus to which every knee will bow. We love you. We thank you for your word, and we pray all this in your name? Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. Amen.

[C]

Amen.

[A]

Live free, brother.

[B]

Live free, brother.

[C]

Live free.