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Live Free with Josh Howerton
Are We Wrong About Hell? (A Response to Kirk Cameron Controversy) | Live Free with Josh Howerton
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now let's dive into today's episode. All right, we're going to be trying something that we have not done on the POD before, but I wanted to do this for a couple reasons. Getting ready to react right here to earlier this week, it was Kirk Cameron with his son James that had a clip where Kirk was advocating for a position on hell known as annihilationism or conditionalism. We are going to test drive a little react segment right here. This is going to be a little easier for me to walk through this biblically. And honestly, here's what I like. You can let us know in the comments if you like this format as I kind of react to this video, and then we'll see how it goes. But we're going to talk about hell for a second here, even during the Christmas season. Now, before I get into this clip very shortly, I do want to point this out. You're going to notice that my tone is different reacting to Kirk Cameron and his son James than for instance last week when we reacted to the video of that guy, that was like deconstructing the faith. And I do want to point this out because last week some people commented and they felt like, man, Josh, you were mocking, kind of laughing at what this. This guy was saying felt kind of mean. So I do want to explain this. I'm a pastor, not a podcaster. And so what I know as a shepherd is that different things require different tones. And you're going to notice this here in the next few minutes. There are moments where, for instance, Elijah mocking the prophets of baal, openly laughing at them are actually, that's like a biblical thing. Jesus did this with the Pharisees where he literally mocked them to their face. He was like, you brood of vipers. You're sons of your father, the devil. And then there are other times where our tone should be different. Here's the differentiation. As a pastor, I want to use a harsh tone towards somebody that is a wolf Trying to lead people away from the faith. And I want to use a more gentle, respectful tone towards a brother who I just believe is mistaken. So before we get into this, I want to say Kirk Cameron is a good brother that I just believe is mistaken. And he's somebody that should be respected. He has a track record of standing firm in his faith in Hollywood amidst a lot of opposition, has remained firm in his convictions on things like gender, marriage and sexuality, the necessity of salvation, the exclusivity of Christ. So I've seen some Christians sort of like dunking on the guy and treating him like an enemy that that's not the case. So that said, let's get into it and let's talk about hell this Christmas season. Here we go. For real. Here we go. If you believe in internal conscious torment, it's not just that. What you're actually saying is that if you are a sinner and you don't give your life to Christ, you go to hell. Not just for 100 years, not just for a thousand years, but for all of eternity. That for literally we can't even imagine how vast eternity is.
- [03:52]
B
After 10,000 years of anguish and pain and torment and darkness. You're not one day closer to finding relief. You, not even one second closer after a billion years.
- [04:08]
A
You're. Let me pause. And first of all, I just want you to notice. So what, here's something I love about Kirk. He's hosting a podcast with his son James and they're talking about the Bible. So let me just say a dad, a Bible believing dad with his Bible believing son, spreading the message of Christ and talking about the Bible. Two thumbs up, massive win. Now I am not talking about Kirk and James family dynamic here, so, so please do not put that on me. But I do want to give a watch out to parents about a dynamic that often forms with something like this. So for instance, here's what happens sometimes is parents, Christian parents, they'll have a son or a daughter that begins going maybe a little more progressive or walking away from the faith. I'm going to shoot you really straight. It's usually on things like gender, marriage and sexuality. Very often it is on, on things like belief in the reality of hell or the exclusivity of Christ or whatever it is. And what a lot of times well meaning but naive parents will do is they'll see their children wandering from the faith in an area and out of an insecurity and a desire to maintain relationship with the kid, they'll actually deconstruct with them. Out of a well meaning but really naive thing where they think, oh, my kid has fallen into a pit, they just became LGBT affirming, or they came out on their sexuality, or they're a progressive Christian now and a well meaning but naive parent will be like, oh, I'm gonna hop down in the pit with them and try to agree with them in order to maintain the relationship so that someday I can pull them out. Let me just say that's a bad idea for two reasons. And again, I'm not saying this necessarily what happened with Kirk and James. I'm saying it's a parable for situations like this. That's foolish for two reasons. Number one, if somebody hops down in a pit and then the only person on the outside of the pit hops down in with them, there's no one left on the outside of the pit to pull them out of the pit. So that's number one. So when a parent hops down into the pit with their kids and they go, you know what, we agree with you on sexuality. You know, we're going to affirm you in this decision that you're making. Or you know what? I've always had those questions about deconstructing my faith too. And they agree, well, actually, now there's nobody left outside of the pit to pull the kid out. The other thing I'll just say and then let's move on is we actually have Bible verses for this. Jesus specifically said, if anyone comes to me and does not hate is what he said. He was using a syllogistic term. He was saying he doesn't hate his father, mother, and then he says, wife, children, brothers or sisters, said he can't be my disciple. So we have to pre decide as Christians, it doesn't matter what anyone, any of the people that I love the most, it doesn't matter what they think. I've already decided I'm on Team Jesus over every other team. And if you leave Team Jesus, I'm sticking with Team Jesus. So what will happen sometimes in our generation is what's supposed to happen is the parents pass wisdom and righteousness down to the children. Because we live in a perverse generation that values youth over age. What's happening in our generation right now is sometimes instead of parents passing wisdom and righteousness down to their kids, kids end up through emotional manipulation and insecure parents, they end up passing foolishness and rebellion up to the parents. Let's not let that happen. Okay, let's keep going.
- [07:47]
B
You're not one second closer to the End. We think of God as a just God. He is a just God. And we believe that the punishment should fit the crime. And so if the punishment was cruel and unusual punishment that went far beyond the severity of the crime, that would no longer be just. So is that really just an eternity of conscious torment for a limited lifetime of sin?
- [08:17]
A
Okay, let's pause right here. There's a bit of a confusion and I'm going to come back to the thing he said about the character of God. So here's the confusion is first of all, we do believe that God is just. I'm going to give a watch out, I'm going to come back to it. What'll happen sometimes is people will read their Bibles and they'll read words like God is just or God is loving. And the word almost functions like a cup. And then if they're not really careful, they'll keep the word just or loving. And then they let the world pour the definition into the word just and loving. So the Bible says God is just great. But then they'll let the world define what is just. Or the Bible says God is love. They're like, great. But then they'll let the rest of the world define what loving means. You do that, you're dead before you start. My little high school debate team experience tells me whoever controls the terms wins the argument. So we have to let the Bible define the words that the Bible uses. Now, Kirk Kamen, where he did right here is he makes what I believe is a good point, but he misapplies it. He says, man, the punishment should fit the crime. And he says it doesn't make sense for an eternity of conscious torment to be the punishment for a limited lifetime of sin. Here's the mistake I believe he's making. And I'm going to show you from the Bible why he's comparing finite sin to finite punishment. He's saying that should be the equalizer. But here's the big idea. When you come to the Bible, the nature of the punishment for sin in the Bible, it's not about the finite nature of the sin or the sinner when it comes to punishment for sin of the Bible, it's about the infinite nature of the one who is sinned against. That's why the Bible makes infinite punishment for sinners because the sin was committed against an infinite God. So we shouldn't be comparing the finite nature of the sinner to the punishment. We should be comparing the infinite nature of the God who is sinned against to the punishment. Now, if that didn't make any sense. Let me give an analogy and then let's move on. So, for instance, if I were to walk out into rock wall or heath, where I'm at right now, and, and I kill a gnat, absolutely nothing bad is going to happen to me. If, on the other hand, I pull out my little Glock 17 and I shoot a cat, and I'm going to refrain from making a cat joke right here and I shoot a cat, I might get a slap on the wrist for animal cruelty, might get public service or a fine, but you know, that'll be the limit of my punishment. If, on the other hand, I walk out into the city and I don't shoot a cat, I shoot a person, I'm going to get convicted for murder. I could go to prison for an elongated period of time, that sort of thing. Now if instead of walking out with my Glock 17 and shooting just a person, I actually successfully assassinate the President of the United States, which obviously I would never do. If I were to do that, well, then I'm not just going to receive, you know, maybe, you know, 30, 40 years in prison, whatever it is, a commuted sentence. I'm going to be tried for treason against our country and I will receive a death penalty. Now, did you notice this, that there were different punishments for the sins that were committed? But, but this is really important. The punishment wasn't based on the nature of the action. The punishment was based on the nature of the person or entity that was sinned against. So kill a gnat. No punishment. Assassinate the president, Max punishment. Here's the big idea in the Bible. The logic of the Bible is that a sin against a lesser being deserves a lesser punishment. A sin against a greater being deserves a greater punishment. And a sin against an eternal and perfect God deserves. Guess what? Eternal and perfect punishment. So Cameron here, I believe I love him as a brother. I believe he's making a mistake in comparing the finite nature of the sinner to the punishment received and saying that's unjust. No, no, no. It's just infinite. Punishment is just because our sin is against an eternal and perfect God. Now let's keep going.
- [12:25]
B
I've learned that there are other positions and a very robust argument can be made for conditionalism or annihilationism. It fits.
- [12:34]
A
Okay, now let me explain. We're going to theology nerd out here for a second real quick. He used two words there that are different view punishment in the afterlife that the Christian theologians have used. He used the words conditionalism and annihilationalism. There are really four positions that Christians have. I shouldn't say that Christians. There are four positions that people have had on hell or punishment in the afterlife. The four positions are universalism, conditionalism, annihilationism, and then a position that is historically just called CET, or conscious eternal torment. Now here's what they are. Universalism is the belief, or some people call it universal redemption. Universalism is the belief that everybody, everywhere gets saved. Either there is no hell, or even if there is a hell, nobody actually ends up there. Second position, conditionalism and annihilationism. They're really. They often get treated as the same thing. They're a little different. Conditionalism is the belief that eternal life is conditional, that not all human souls are by definition or by their nature eternal, but that eternal life is conditional upon you accepting Jesus as your savior. So you are actually a finite person and you receiving eternal existence is conditional upon you placing your faith in Jesus. That's conditionalism. Now a very similar position that's a little different is annihilationism. That's the belief that people who do not trust Jesus with their life, that they do go to hell in some form or fashion, but when they go there, they're annihilated or destroyed. So it's similar to conditionalism, but it's a little different. And then there's the historic mainstream Christian position that's conscious eternal torment, that hell is eternal, and that the people are conscious for it for eternity. Now those are the four positions. I'm going to explain why I believe that Kirk is that I love him, but he's wrong. But I do just want to say this really quick because I've seen Christians doing this online a lot is they're pointing at Kirk advocating for annihilationism, and they're calling that heresy. I want to give a quick warning here. Sometimes, sometimes well meaning but naive Christians, they will start calling basically any theological difference that they have emotion around. Heresy. We really shouldn't do that. Universalism would historically be considered a heretical position because it denies the existence of hell. Therefore, it denies salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. So when somebody gets to the point where they believe universalism, I actually would say that person is really not in a meaningful sense Christian anymore. That's a heresy. Conditionalism and annihilationism, these are things that I believe are wrong. I believe they're wrong in important ways. But these are positions that somebody can have and still be considered a Christian. They shouldn't be called a heretic. So this is Saint Augustine's thing where he says, says in essentials, unity, in non essentials, liberty, but then in all things, charity. So this would be an example of something that well meaning Christians can differ on. I believe it's very important. I believe that he's wrong. But well meaning Christians can differ on this. And we shouldn't be calling Kirk Cameron a heretic. All right, now let's keep going.
- [16:26]
C
Well, hey, lift free family. Before we jump back in, I've got something you cannot miss. Christmas at Lake Point is one of the most meaningful moments of the entire year. And our candlelight services are happening next week, December 21st to 24th. If you've never experienced it, imagine this. Thousands of people gathering across all of our campuses, worshiping together, singing carols, lifting candles in the dark as we celebrate the moment light stepped into the world. It is powerful, it is moving, and it is, is also a chance for you and the people you love to come and encounter Jesus in a fresh way this Christmas. And so here's my invitation for you. Bring your family, bring your friends, bring your one more. And by the way, if you are a live free listener who lives in a different city or state, we would love for you to come visit and meet you in person. For service times and locations, just go to lpchristmas.com or text the word Christmas to 20411 and we'll send you everything you need. Live free family. Let's celebrate the hope of Jesus together at our Christmas candlelight services.
- [17:36]
B
The character of God in my understanding.
- [17:39]
A
Okay, this is really important. The character of God in my understanding.
- [17:42]
B
More than the conscious eternal torment position.
- [17:47]
A
Okay, I want to pause. So this is really important. This is the crux of the matter. He says that this fits the character of God, quote, in his understanding. Anytime that you as a Christian are evaluating any sort of Bible teaching or biblical claim, the question we have to ask is, by what standard or by what authority? Now it's really important. What Kirk's doing here is, I think he's being honest about how he got there. Is he's saying, well, the Bible tells me that God is just. And this position doesn't feel just according to my understanding. Now let's theology nerd out for a second. Really quick. Historically, when Christians ask the question, by what standard? We evaluate truth claims according to something that Christian theologians have historically called the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. And this is kind of the belief that there are four things that Christians use to evaluate any truth claim. And they are ascending in their levels of authority. So at the very bottom would be personal experience. I feel a certain way about something, or I saw something, then reason, then tradition, then Scripture. And they almost function like a series of courts where things like experience and reason are the lower courts, and then scripture is the Supreme Court. So if Scripture says this, but I feel this way, or my reason thinks this, well, then the Supreme Court trumps the lower court, and that's what matters. Now, what I want to point out to you, what Kirk does here is he says, according to my understanding, that essentially doesn't feel just. Here's my response to that, is, watch out, bro, because that's the path to apostasy. In fact, the book of Proverbs says this. It says, trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on my own understanding. Okay? So what we've got to get. You got to get this in your head Very, very, very frankly. Almost every Christian is going to wrestle at an emotional level with the Bible's teaching on hell, okay? But here's what you got to get in your head is, hey, man, if God is the size of the Pacific Ocean and my mind is the size of a Coke can, I should expect some things to be in there that aren't going to fit in here. So what I would say is, watch out when you start evaluating truth claims by what feels right, like he said, according to your own understanding, that, my friends, is the path to apostasy. Okay? So here's what will happen is you'll have your emotions and your instincts calibrated by the world around you. What they say feels just or loving. And then you start judging the Bible's statements according to your own understanding that's been calibrated by the world. And then Mark Twain has this really awesome quote where Mark Twain says, God created man in his own image, and then man promptly returned the favor. So you'll start remaking God and the Scriptures, truth claims, according to what feels right, according to your understanding and your emotions. So here's what I'm just going to tell you exactly what's happened. I've had a ton of high school friends who completely left the faith. There have been people who once upon a time were Bible teachers that are now, like, actually open enemies of the faith and apostate people like Rob Bell was really prominent when I was in college. And this is. Let me just tell you, like, this is the path. This is always what happens. It almost always starts with the doctrine of hell. And then they go, man, it just doesn't feel just. It doesn't feel Loving. And what they don't realize they're doing is they're placing their feelings in authority over the Bible instead of placing the Bible in authority over their feelings. And then they start deciding which doctrines Christians have historically held that they, they're going to hold based on what comports to their feelings, internal feelings of what feels right or just. So I'm going to tell you, like, here's the dominoes that tend to fall. I do not think Kirk Cameron is going to go down this path. I'm just telling you, I've seen this too many times for it not to be a pattern that you should recognize. It starts with belief in the doctrine of hell and they're like, ah, it doesn't feel just. So they jettison that. Then they eventually end up a universalist or you know, kind of everybody ends up getting saved or they reject the exclusivity of Christ, that the only way to be saved is through faith in Christ. Then they're like, ah, evangelism is really kind of unnecessary. And actually it's kind of cringe then. And this is like a, a super theology nerd thing here. Real quick. They jettison penal substitutionary atonement. I'm just going to give you a heads up. When you see Bible teachers begin rejecting substitutionary atonement, the belief that Jesus Christ was condemned in my place and that the Father poured out the wrath that my sin deserved on the Son of God, that's substitutionary. He substituted himself for me atonement. His death was the payment that satisfied the wrath of God. When you see Bible teachers start jettisoning substitutionary atonement, every red flag in the book, run, run, run. So then they jettison that. Then very frankly, they start jettisoning things like the Bible's teaching on gender, marriage and sexuality. Then they reject the authority of the Bible itself. And then honestly, just like Rob Bell did, then they just completely apostatize. They walk away from the faith. So my watch out for Kirk Cameron, who is not doing this. I love Kirk Cameron. He's a brother. He's a good brother. My watch out is once you start subjecting which beliefs from the Bible you will and won't accept by your understanding and your emotional calibrations, you're on a path where those things start standing in authority over the Bible. That's, that's a bad spot to be in. Now let's watch what he says here.
- [23:26]
B
Because it brings in the mercy of God together with the justice of God. It doesn't leave judgment out. It is to die and it is to perish. Not live forever in an eternal barbecue.
- [23:37]
A
It is really important. Let's talk about this for a second. He says, not live for forever in an eternal barbecue. Now, I do want to say this. A lot of Christians, very, very few Christians have an actual biblical understanding of what hell is and is not. But we'll just say a lot of Christians, they really do, they have a caricature of what the Bible says about hell in their heads. That is. That's inaccurate. So one thing that a lot of Christians don't understand is that in the same way the Bible teaches there will be varying degrees of rewards in heaven, the Bible also teaches there will be varying degrees of punishments in hell. I'm going to give you a couple passages for this. So this is Romans, chapter two. It says, all who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law. And all who sin under the law will be judged by the law law. So that passage is saying that people will be judged according to the level of revelation and knowledge they had. And the implication is that the more knowledge we had about what God expected of us, the greater judgment we will receive. Jesus actually affirms this. This is Matthew 10:15. Jesus says, truly, I say to you, listen closely the language. It will be more bearable, he says, on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. More bearable. So he's very clearly implying there will be degrees of judgment that people receive that are different in eternity. One last one. This is Luke 12. Jesus is telling a parable, and he says about hell. And he says, and that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required. And from him to whom they entrusted much they will demand the more. So you see it right there. It's more language. Severe beating, severe judgment, light beating, light judgment. So you do need to understand this. Jesus and God is acknowledging there will be just differences in the level of punishment that people receive in hell. So here's a comfort that you can receive is that hell will be totally just. I don't know how it's all going to work out, and neither do you. But what we do know is God is promising us it will be just. Now, what Kirk is saying here is he just can't get his head around the Eternal nature of hell. Here's our deal is it doesn't matter what we think and it doesn't matter what we feel. The only thing that matters is what does the Bible say? Because the Bible stands in authority over our beliefs. Our beliefs do not stand in authority over the Bible. And on this point, honestly, guys, the Bible is just. It's really clear. Whether we like it or not, the Bible is really clear. Okay, so for instance, Matthew 25, parable, the sheep and the goats. Jesus says, listen to the language. These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Did you notice the symmetry? He's saying, whatever is the nature of the reward that somebody gets an eternal life, it's the nature of the punishment that the wicked and the unbelieving receive will be the same. So he uses the same word, eternal punishment and then eternal life. Now I do. Let me just real quick throw a bone to the conditionalist and the annihilationist. What they say is that very frequently in the Bible, the word eternal doesn't just refer to span of time, it refers to the quality of something. So eternal life is referring to the quality of life that somebody will have. And they'll say in the same way, that means that eternal punishment is referring to the quality of the punishment will somebody. Somebody will receive. Here's a problem with that, man. Problem with that are like, okay, let's say that passage is up for grabs. We have other passages that are really, really clear on the time span of eternal punishment. I'm going to give you two. This is Revelation 20. It says they marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur. That's talking about obviously hell. Listen real close. Where the beast and the false prophet have been thrown. They listen close. They so the beast and false prophet and all of the people who followed them in unbelief, referring to they, they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. It's right there. I'm going to give one more. This is Revelation 14. A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice, if anyone worships the beast and image and receives this mark on their forehead or on their hand, they too will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. Listen real close. To verse 11. And the smoke of their torment will rise. How long? Forever and ever, it says. There will be no rest, day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name. So I would just say this, man. Like annihilationists and conditionalists, they believe that unbelieving people will just cease to exist. And I just got to say this. There's no way to reconcile the language of there will be, quote, no rest, day or night, forever and ever. There is no way to reconcile that language with the concept of somebody just ceasing to exist. There's no way, man. So, like, whether we like it or not, whether or not we understand it, the Bible is simply clear that eternal punishment and hell are eternal, not just in their quality, but in their time.
- [29:55]
B
Spanish so that's where I am today. How about you, James?
- [29:58]
A
What do you think? I agree. I think just like, based upon like everything that I know and have read and believe, man, it's not about what we know. It's about what the Bible says about the character of God leads me to believe in more so of the idea of eternal destruction rather than eternal torment. Yeah. Now let me just finish by saying this. What they're really wrestling with is the moral struggle with feeling like man. That just doesn't feel fair. Okay, let me take a second and I just want to. I want to say something to every follower of Jesus. R.C. sproul is one of my favorite Bible teachers. R.C. sproull, shortly before he died, he pointed out that we do not actually know a lot about what people are going to be doing in hell. Jesus tells us there are two things that we know are going to be happening in hell. He uses the words weeping and gnashing of teeth. Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Weeping is the cry of dismay for people who wake up in hell and they know that they deserve to be there. Some people, hard to think about. They will wake up in hell after they die and they will think, oh no, what have I done? Like, please, anything but this. And just like the emotion that I'm feeling now, they'll begin to weep like, please God, no. Okay. Gnashing of teeth is a biblical metaphor for an expression of extreme fury. Gnashing of teeth. God, how dare you. Gnashing of teeth. How dare you. I was a good person. Who do you think you are? How dare you? Now let me just say something that every Bible believing Christian should understand. I don't think I'm going to hell. But if somehow my Whole life I have tricked myself. And I am a person who wakes up in hell someday. And I'm the person that Jesus says, I'm the one that's going, lord, Lord, did I not prophesy in your name? And did I. Did I not preach a whole lot of sermons in your name? And did I not? And I say that, and then I deceive myself and he says, depart from me. I never knew you. And I wake up in hell, I'll just say something to you. In that moment, I will be a weeper, and I will not be a gnasher. Because I know that my sin deserves punishment from an almighty, wonderful, loving and sovereign God. I have committed cosmic treason against the Creator of the universe. I am a murderer in the most real sense of the word because my sin killed the son of God, Jesus Christ. And I know that my sin against an eternal and perfect God deserves eternal and perfect punishment. So let me just say this to you when you feel like man, hell, it just. This doesn't seem fair. I just want to remind us of what's fair and what's not fair. Because the only place where everything is fair is hell. Hell is the place where everything's fair and everybody gets exactly what they deserved for the deeds that they committed on earth. You know, the only place anywhere where everything is not fair. Do you know where that is? Is Heaven. Where everyone there deserved hell. But by the unmerited grace of God in the person of Jesus Christ, they received total forgiveness and an eternity in paradise with the Father. So let me just remind us when we really understand what the Bible says about this. The question isn't man. How could a loving God send anybody to hell? That's not the question. The real question is, how could a just God send anybody to heaven? That is what's not fair. So this is what we want to understand when we watch Kirk and his son James miss this on Hell. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review and share the podcast and don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church Online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church Livefree. We'll see you next time.