Does the Bible Support Abortion?! | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Does the Bible Support Abortion?! | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Podcast: Live Free with Josh Howerton
Host: Lakepointe Church
Episode: Does the Bible Support Abortion?!
Date: August 4, 2025

---

Overview

This episode tackles a hot-button cultural and theological issue: Does the Bible support abortion? The hosts—Pastor Josh Howerton, Pastor Paul Cunningham, and Carlos Araza—respond directly to a viral clip from a Joe Rogan interview featuring James Talo, who claims the Bible (and Jesus in particular) does not clearly condemn abortion or homosexuality. The conversation navigates key biblical texts, church history, and practical discipleship, aiming to equip Christians for clear thinking and compassionate conviction.

---

Key Discussion Points

1. Viral Joe Rogan Clip: Setting the Stage (03:21, 56:28)

• The hosts introduce a widespread, controversial clip in which James Talo claims that:
  • Jesus never spoke about abortion or homosexuality
  • Early churches did not universally oppose abortion
  • Christians should allow for "theological arguments" supporting abortion

2. Stewarding Your Life and Time (11:00–41:08)

• Digression into Ephesians 5's command to "make the best use of your time."
• Pastors discuss how Christians should live with eternity in mind, prioritizing what lasts forever—especially the souls of people.
  • Quote: "Reverse engineer my time allocation...from what are the things that will matter in eternity." – Pastor Josh (15:00)
• Challenges of focus, distraction, and "the devil doesn't have to destroy you if he can distract you" (28:26).
• Practical principles: set priorities, define commitments, say "no" to good things for the sake of best things—especially in family and calling.

3. Dating & Relationships—Biblical Wisdom (41:44–56:28)

• Brief segment on dating for young adults:
  • Only date Christians—“Do not be unequally yoked”
  • Build friendship first; character matters most
  • Quote: "Try to become the type of person that the type of person you're looking for is looking for." – Pastor Josh (50:58)
  • Men should lead in purity, set boundaries, fish in the right ponds (i.e. seek a spouse in the church context)
  • Modesty matters: "If you fish with junk bait, you're going to catch junk fish." (49:56)

4. Responding to Viral Arguments: Does the Bible Support Abortion or Homosexuality? (56:28–End)

a) “Jesus Never Talked About Homosexuality or Abortion”

(57:05–60:23)

• Argument from silence is weak—Jesus didn’t mention nuclear warheads either.
• Jesus did define marriage and sexual ethics explicitly (Matthew 19). By affirming marriage as between a man and a woman, Jesus excluded all other sexual expressions.
  • Quote: "If somebody were to ask me, 'Josh, which one is your wife?' I could point to everybody and say 'not her, not her', or I could just point to Janet and say, 'That’s my wife.' That’s what Jesus does with marriage." (60:29)
• The broader New Testament (Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6) directly addresses homosexuality.

b) “Early Baptists and the Church Supported Abortion”

(65:24–69:53)

• James Talo claims the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) was pro-choice until the 1970s.

• Reality: The SBC’s 1971 statement called for abortion exceptions but rooted that in a commitment to "the sanctity of life." Shortly after, a conservative resurgence reaffirmed biblical pro-life positions.

• The Didache (early church manual, ~A.D. 70), Tertullian (A.D. 197), and many other early sources show a consistent Christian opposition to abortion.

  • Quote: "You shall not procure abortion" – The Didache, A.D. 70 (68:32)
  • “This view [that abortion is a Christian liberty] would have been described as heresy anywhere before the last 50 years.” – Paul Cunningham (69:53)

c) “Numbers 5: The Bible Commands Abortion”

(71:08–74:44)

• Claim: Numbers 5 allegedly includes instructions for abortion.
• Correct context: The passage is a test for adultery, not abortion—pregnancy is never mentioned, and it concerns divine judgment, not human intervention.
  • “If you're seeing something no one has seen before, it's because it isn't there.” – Paul Cunningham (73:01)

d) “Biblical Human Life Begins at First Breath (Genesis Creation)”

(76:38–78:45)

• Claim: Because God breathed into Adam, life begins with first breath.
• Rebuttal: Adam is a supernatural exception, created uniquely; normal human life begins at conception, as seen in Luke 1 (John the Baptist leaping in the womb), Psalm 139, Jeremiah 1:5.
  • The Greek word brephos applies equally to unborn and born children.

e) Mary’s “Consent” and Women’s Autonomy

(83:08–87:28)

• Talo claims Mary gave consent, thus modeling reproductive autonomy.
• Text shows Mary obediently submits, not that God waits for consent.
  • “If anything, this confirms our viewpoint—she basically says, 'I am going to be obedient.' If she had not, it would have been sin.” – Paul Cunningham (86:39)

f) Addressing Tone & Clarity: Why Speak So Boldly?

(88:03–End)

• Clear teaching and strong language are biblical, especially when protecting vulnerable lives and the church.
  • “It’s a loving thing to be clear. Whenever the flock is being misled, Christian leaders have the responsibility to rise up and speak very pointedly.” – Paul Cunningham (90:35)
• The pulpit must be clear because the culture is loud and confused; confusion about core moral issues is often due to unclear teachings in churches.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On eternal perspective:
  "I preached as never sure to preach again, as a dying man to dying men." – Richard Baxter, quoted by Pastor Josh (19:55)
• On attention:
  "If you don't pre-decide your priorities, then your only input is how you feel in the moment." – Pastor Josh (38:46)
• On distraction:
  "The devil doesn't have to destroy you if he can distract you." – Pastor Josh (28:26)
• On abortion’s moral framework:
  "The only question is: is it murder? That’s the only question that matters." – Pastor Josh (81:19)
• On gospel hope for those who’ve aborted:
  “The death that most defines your life is not the death of your son or your daughter. It’s the death of the Son of God that cleanses you from all sin.” – Pastor Josh (83:00)
• On progressive Christianity and politics:
  "Progressive Christianity grows social media platforms but shrinks churches...They preach against Christian nationalism but then use Scripture to push their own preferred policies.” – Pastor Josh (91:57)
• On Christian leaders' duty:
  “What's mean is allowing someone to continue teaching things that, if believed, will result in death and people going to hell. That’s mean.” – Pastor Josh (90:30)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• 03:21 – Viral Joe Rogan clip introduction & context
• 11:00 – Principles on stewarding time biblically
• 41:44 – Dating and relationship advice
• 56:28 – Begin analysis/response to viral arguments
• 57:05 – "Jesus never addressed homosexuality/abortion" argument
• 65:24 – SBC/Church and abortion history
• 71:08 – Numbers 5 and “biblical” abortion
• 76:38 – When does life begin? Breath vs. conception
• 83:08 – Mary’s “consent” argument
• 88:03 – Why pastors must speak clearly, even strongly
• 91:09 – Pastors’ responsibility for clarity in teaching
• 95:18 – Closing prayer and gospel hope

---

Final Thoughts

The episode asserts unambiguously that both the Bible and historic Christianity reject abortion and same-sex sexual behavior, not as political points but as matters of faithfulness and truth. The hosts urge clarity in teaching, compassion for sinners, and confidence in the gospel's grace to cover and heal every sin—including abortion.

If you’re wrestling with these issues or your church is unsure, this episode is a call to return to the Word and the wisdom of church history, walking in conviction, clarity, and the kindness of Christ.

---

Show Notes & Community Resources:

• The Show Notes for each episode are available to deepen group conversations
• “Rooted” discipleship experience launching soon for spiritual growth and life rhythms
• For help, text “rooted” or “notes” to 20411

---

Transcript

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode.

[Carlos Araza]

Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. This is episode 34. By the way, my name is Carlos, and I'm here with Pastor Josh. By the way, I was going to say my name is Carlos and I serve as pastor of Digital Ministries. This is my church online script.

[Paul Cunningham]

It almost came out.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I do that on. On Saturday. I'll walk out for the Saturday night service and be like, good, everybody.

[Carlos Araza]

I'm here with Pastor Josh Howardson and Pastor Paul Cunningham.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And I'm here with Carlos Araza, who has never seen the movie Braveheart ever.

[Carlos Araza]

I have never seen that movie or Tombstone.

[Paul Cunningham]

Saving Private Ryan as well.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well, he's El Salvadorian, just a little less right.

[Carlos Araza]

We.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We just saved the world, man.

[Paul Cunningham]

Thank you.

[Carlos Araza]

Thank you so much for sending me. So Pastor Josh yesterday texted me a full list of movies that I need to watch, like, asap.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, man, we call this Disciple show.

[Paul Cunningham]

That' that's like, we got to get past and never seeing Mary Poppins. But these others, a little bit. A little bit different.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We get to these other movies, I'm.

[Carlos Araza]

Like, I've never heard of these. Like, these, like, old movies.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There are. Obviously, there's a couple of things you got to skip. Yeah, just let me get that out there. Check your kids in mind website. That's what we do.

[Carlos Araza]

Okay.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

But, bro, you for real? You got to Braveheart.

[Carlos Araza]

Yeah, yeah, we got Braveheart and some other ones. But anyways, it's going to be.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Here's what's going to happen when you. Especially Tombstone, because. Because Tombstone is the most quotable movie ever made. When you watch Tombstone, you're going to be like, oh, that's why people say that. I've learned I'm your Uncle Barry.

[Carlos Araza]

I've literally never heard of Tombstone in my life. Like, I've heard of Bradley.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What year did you move to the United States?

[Carlos Araza]

2010. I mean, we got movies in El Salvador.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I Will say that you have movies.

[Carlos Araza]

Like, we have movies.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, we have six jokes I was going to make, but they would come across poorly. Well, Josh is like.

[Carlos Araza]

Wait, Josh is like. So you moved in 2010 so you discovered Hollywood and movies? No, we, we, we went to the movies growing up. But, but I, I did miss. Miss those.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So I. Okay. Like I said, when you watch Tombstone, it's a. It's like a dictionary of the most quotable.

[Carlos Araza]

I'm excited.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Thank you.

[Carlos Araza]

Yeah, I'm excited, man. Hey, we're gonna have a very spicy episode today. I'm excited. People will be saying things like, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality or abortion, so we can't really say those issues are non negotiables to be a Christ. Anti gay and anti abortion. Is it true that there is no historical biblical theological basis for Christians to oppose homosexuality and abortion? Does the Old Testament actually prescribe ways to perform abortions now, Carlos, where would.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You have gotten these? We can tease where we're going in the back half of the episode because I'll just give a heads up for listeners. More than anything, since we started this podcast 35 weeks ago, there was a clip that went like mega viral from a quote unquote pastor who actually pastored in the synagogue of Satan. That was on Joe Rogan making these arguments more than anything in 35 weeks. The largest number of people sent me the clip and they were like, hey, what do you think about this? So we noticed it was like super confusing for actual Bible believing Christians. We're going to shred this thing at the end podcast.

[Paul Cunningham]

I was going to say, probably more than any other video. It fired me up.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Paul Cunningham]

And I mean, I just did something to tell me, like, we got to come at it hard.

[Carlos Araza]

Yeah, it's going to be a good episode, man. Hey, thanks for liking subscribing to our YouTube channel as well. Commenting, sharing, and by the way, shout out to everybody that's already downloaded the Show Notes. Did you know, Josh, that we have every. For every episode of the live free podcast, we actually put together something called the Show Notes. Did you know that?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well, I've never heard this before. Will you please tell me?

[Carlos Araza]

Well, over. Over 1500 people have already downloaded them and subscribed. And it's basically our all in one deeper dive recap of everything we discuss in this podcast episode. So all the wisdom gold nuggets, key takeaways, biblical versus book recommendations, and additional resources as well, plus discussion questions as well. And so because this is called the live free podcast, not the think Free podcast.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We live free, not learn free.

[Carlos Araza]

That's right. We believe in applying what we do here. And so my favorite thing is for people to grab this, the show notes, and then take them to their groups and then basically, like, continue the conversation, go even deeper. And so this is. We believe it that discipleship happens in community. And so to download the show notes, go to Lakepoint Church SL show notes. Or you can text the word notes to 20411.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm gonna do that right now.

[Carlos Araza]

You can do it right now. And as of the recording of this video, that's probably not gonna work. But it will be working once the video goes live.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, get it out.

[Carlos Araza]

And so, man, shout out as well, man. Somebody. People keep sharing about their groups that are coming together.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's been really cool.

[Carlos Araza]

Shout out to Alex V96 on YouTube. This person says, our group meets at Rosa's Cafe in Rockwell Saturday mornings. Bunch of us, bro, looking for fellowship and God's wisdom.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's awesome. So that's what people are doing. They're listening to sermon. Then they'll listen to the. The deeper do Live Free. And then they're reading our Bibles and getting together and going, okay, what's God doing your life? We. We love seeing that. So, by the way, by popular request, we are. We asked about this in a previous episode, and we actually are working on vertically aligning sermon podcast, Bible reading plan, sermon series, and life group options. So we actually might be developing an app to do that in a seamless way. So it'd be awesome.

[Paul Cunningham]

That's great.

[Carlos Araza]

I'm excited for that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, that app. Hey, hey. Live free, brother.

[Carlos Araza]

Live free, brother.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Listen, man, we have to explain that.

[Carlos Araza]

To be a young millennial, please.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Crazy. So, first of all, this is the first episode that we have had since the passing of the great Hulk Hogan. So Paul Cunningham was with me. We were on executive team retreat, planning the 2026 calendar and strategic objectives. Will you guess throw the. No, no, the other one. All right, so this is no joke, dude. This was crazy. And it's like, I can't believe this is one of those things. I can't believe that happened. So we were sitting around. There's a bunch of dudes around a fire pit. We're talking about live Free. And then somebody says, live free, brother, and it fires the idea. Everybody thinks Hulk Hogan. Do you even know who Hulk Hogan is?

[Carlos Araza]

I've seen him before. I've seen him before. He's a wrestler, right?

[Paul Cunningham]

What I love is, like, between the movies and Hulk Hogan. You're just getting such a.

[Carlos Araza]

We're getting out today. I'm here to learn.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So Hulk Hogan was like a significant part of my childhood.

[Paul Cunningham]

He's the real American hero.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You can't understand 1990s American childhood without Hulk Hogan. You can't.

[Carlos Araza]

Wrestler.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yes, the. The wrestler. So I post. We're all making this joke around the fire pit. So this is before any of the events that transpired with Hulk. So somebody. I think it was Nathan Ironside. We make the joke live free, brother. We start doing it a Hulk Hogan voice because we're just being dudes. And so then somebody creates this on ChatGPT. So then I posted on Instagram, I kid you not. Within I think it was four hours, Hulk Hogan tragically passed to. To go be with Jesus. So then here's what happened to me. Unfortunate series of events. All these people, they wake up and they see that I posted that they don't know the series of events. And there's a coincidence. I've never posted about Hulk Hogan before in my entire life. So then people think I'm making a joke about the death of Hulk Hogan.

[Carlos Araza]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So then they're sending me these things, like, poorly timed pastor. Like these messages. So then I pull it down. But then we were all. Honestly, we were like one. A lot of people don't know, two years ago, Hulk Hogan and I think his wife gave their lives to Jesus. Really cool thing. I should have brought it up. Hulk Hogan's pastor wrote this amazing tribute about what he was like as a church member behind the scenes, dude. And there's like a little church just showed up faithfully with his Bible, taking notes on the sermon, served in little volunteer ministries in the church. That would be amazing. Just about his faith and all that stuff. So anyway, it's not a joke, but we were like, you know what? That's a. What a wonderful tribute to Hulk Hogan. Because Jesus, he said, the Bible says it is for freedom. You have been set free. And today Hulk Hogan's hugging Jesus and he is living free, brother. So tribute to the great Hulk Hogan. Do the other one that I just like that one. Live free, brother.

[Paul Cunningham]

We were trying to maybe talk one of our other staff members into getting a tattoo of it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I said that I would pay for half a of it.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yes, yes, we'll see. We'll see if he does it.

[Carlos Araza]

Part of my ignorance is that a phrase that he would say. Is that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So Hulk Hogan would say. He would add, brother, brother, live free, brother. No, we just. He would just add Brother, onto the end of anything. Got it.

[Paul Cunningham]

And what also is catch, Say your prayers and eat your vitamins. Was that him as well?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

He did it. Eat your vitamins and say, that's it. That's it.

[Paul Cunningham]

That's it.

[Carlos Araza]

I love it. That's great, bro.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You. You need to go to YouTube and just like YouTube, search like Hulk Hogan highlights and just get a taste of 1990s Americana body slamming.

[Paul Cunningham]

Andre the Giant. You can like, Google that when I've heard of him.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Many people say this. I'm not a wrestling guy, but many people say that's the greatest moment in wrestling history.

[Carlos Araza]

Interesting. I'll add it to my list. Thank you very much.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You guys talk about the Bible now?

[Carlos Araza]

Yes, but before live.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Free, brother.

[Carlos Araza]

Amen.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Free.

[Carlos Araza]

Before we go there, we just wrapped week four of at the Movies.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I hope you brought your Kleenex for that one.

[Carlos Araza]

Yes. And bro, we just want to. We just want to celebrate every single opportunity that people had to give their life to Jesus and cross that line of faith. We have a number. As of the recording of this video, I want to let you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We have not gotten the week four salvation numbers in, but through the first three weeks of at the Movies, over 1, 500 people indicated a first time decision. Follow Christ, man.

[Paul Cunningham]

It's so good.

[Carlos Araza]

They're joining right now on the local podcast.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So.

[Carlos Araza]

Hey, welcome to the family and welcome to team Jesus. Let's go, man. All right. You ready to dive in?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Let's do it, man.

[Carlos Araza]

All right, man. Hey. Ephesians, chapter five. It. It talks about making the best use of your time. Obviously this is something that you mentioned in the sermon.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So this, by the way, the movie that we do not preach movies. We use movies to illustrate biblical truths. The movie that we used for the illustration this week was the movie About Time. By the way, great movie. But I did give a disclaimer. Jan and I saw the TBS version, the made for TV version. And then I was like, that was amazing. We should do it for at the movies. So then we did it and then one of. Actually, I think it was somebody in here. Was it Brooke? Carlos? Chelsea. Wait, you're not Carlos. You're Carlos. Somebody told me, like, hey, man, there's nudity in the movie. We did not know that because we did not see that version. So heads up to the parents. That's not one you want to go rent with your little kids. But anyway, if you see the edited version, like, we saw good movie.

[Carlos Araza]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah.

[Carlos Araza]

About time.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

About time. So time travel.

[Carlos Araza]

I'm a fan of Time travel movies. Some of you already know best. Best. You know about times, like, good, but you know best.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Back to the future and then like.

[Paul Cunningham]

Tombstone, Braveheart, like, he's redeeming himself a little bit. I was a little nervous when if you didn't. I didn't seem back to the future. So, like. All right.

[Carlos Araza]

Yeah. Anyways, okay.

[Paul Cunningham]

Don't get us off track.

[Carlos Araza]

Hey, man, let's. Let's go there. I said, I think, you know, when it comes to speaking about how to use your time, like literally Ephesians, chapter 5, verse 15, it literally says, it's a Bible command, make the best use of your time. So as Christians, how can we biblically discern what is worth our time and what isn't?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well, first of all, like an anchor phrase for us is a disciple stewards all that he has, or a disciple stewards all this. Yes. So the, the main idea is that you are not your own. You were about with a price. Therefore, glorify God with your bodies, and that includes what you do with your bodies. Which means. That means stewarding your time. That's why Ephesians talks about make the best use of your time. So we have been entrusted with one life, and the purpose of our life is the glory of God and the good of people. So what God has done for us is he going, hey, man, I've given you this. Your job is to steward it for Max Kingdom return on investment. So there, there's your, there's your principle. I got a million thoughts here. Let me just. I'll start with an anchor thing and we start riffing on this. So one of my favorite. And this is, this is huge for me, probably just like everybody that listens, I am busy. I've got, you know, my. I have a full capital F, full time job. I got three little kids.

[Carlos Araza]

I thought you only worked on Sundays because you're a pastor.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Right? Yeah, I've heard that before.

[Paul Cunningham]

And Saturday nights, too.

[Carlos Araza]

Okay, what do you do the rest of the week?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You work one day a week, right? Like, oh, my gosh, make a fist, punch yourself in the face. So, you know, this is a big. This is a big deal, you know, for me. So here's, here's an anchor passage for me. This is 1 Corinthians 3. Now this passage Paul's talking about what is going to happen at the end of time. Actually, we're preaching on this later this year. We're doing a sermon series called Run to Win this. All about end times, return of Christ and how you live for that moment it. So this is what he says. By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation. So this is Paul. He's going to talk about how he decided what he spent time on. I laid a foundation as a wise builder and someone else is building on it. He's talking about, I started these churches, and now I appointed other pastors to build these churches, but each one should build with care. Now he's getting into, okay, how do you spend your time? For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that's already laid, which is Jesus Christ. You go back to the Sermon on the Mount, build your house on the rock. Jesus of the Rock. If anyone builds on this, this is it. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hair, straw, their work will be shown for what it is. So when Jesus returns, everything that we did with our life, built with our life, accomplished with our life, he's saying, that's going to be revealed. You might not be able to tell right now if it's going to stand the test of eternity, but when he returns, everything's going to get revealed. That's what it's saying. Because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. And that's not just pastors, that's every disciple of Jesus Christ. What work did you do with your life? If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss, but yet will be saved, even though only as one escaping through the flames. I'm really gonna preach a whole sermon on the passage later. But what it's saying is, so here's. Here's a little mental framework, and then let's start riffing on this together. Is it saying everything that we do with our time, accomplish or build, it will pass through a fire when Jesus returns? And if. If we lived for and built things that will not last into eternity, all gone. Yeah, all gone. But if we lived for and built things that will last forever, they'll pass through the fire. His point is, gold, silver, and costly stones, they can pass through fire, wood, hay, and stubble. Can't. So if we live for stuff that will matter in eternity, actually, you kind of do get to take it with you in eternal rewards. So for me, what I want to do with my. Is reverse engineer my time allocation and decision making from what are the things that will matter in eternity? And I'll just give a little hint. The only thing that Lasts forever are the souls of people. That's what lasts forever. So then we reverse engineer our decision making from there. Now I got a lot of other thoughts, but let's keep going. What do y' all got?

[Paul Cunningham]

You know, I really have two choices. I can live for me and my story. And in the grand scheme of things, it's like a little YouTube clip that maybe has three views and two of them are by my mom, you know, kind of a thing. Or I can live for the capital s story, God's story, which is now and goes on for forever. And so the question of my life is, am I going to live for me or am I going to plug my lowercase s story into God's capital s story and live for what matters most and what will live for eternity? The cool thing though, in Corinthians is that when people hear stuff like that, they think, oh, I've got to go do this big thing for God and that big thing for God. And sure, if you're called to do that, but in Corinthians it says, whether eat or you drink, do it all for the glory of God. So one thing you have to remember when we talk about taking our stories and plugging them into God's story and what he's doing for things that are eternal is that includes all the small things of your day. Every little thing of your day can be done for God, which to me actually makes it beautiful. It makes everything I do every day can be lived for what matters most.

[Carlos Araza]

It's interesting because Paul writes this in Ephesians chapter five. And a lot of people might not know this, but Paul is in prison writing this letter. And so if anybody had an excuse to just kind of stay put, would be Paul. Paul, because he's like, well, I'm in prison doing the Lord's work and this is where I am. And he's literally writing the Bible, telling us, hey, make the best use of your time for the kingdom of God. It's also interesting, the word time. There's. There's two popular words for time in the Bible. One of them would be Kronos, which literally just means minutes times it's literal time. And then the other one would be kairos, the word for time. When Paul says make the best use of your time is kairos is a God appointed moment. And so what Paul is saying, like in this very moment, God puts you here for a purpose more bigger than yourself, bigger than yourself. And so are you leveraging it for the glory of God and for the good of other people or are you wasting it?

[Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So it's like this is. Keeping an eternal perspective is like. That's the. That's the key. If you get that, everything else starts making sense. So this. I'll mention this every now and then. And I think when I mention it, some people think, think, bro, that's macabre. Like, that's dark. But it's not. It's actually. This thing is why I do it sometimes. Like, if I get in a spot where it's like, it's a dry season, my heart just feels asleep to the things of God, Jan. And I'll go. I'll go find a graveyard and I'll walk the graveyard. And I've always done that. I've done that for over 10 years. And the reason is this. It puts eternity in my heart. It reminds me I'm gonna die, my kids are gonna die. Every person that I ever preach the Bible to, they're gonna die. And so I better live for this day. In light of that day, it's the. Some people have noticed before, if you. If you watch real close, there's right before the. The lights come on and the cameras start and I start preaching, it's always, you know, fix my Bible. I. I check my fly. You just make sure. And then really well, good practical move.

[Carlos Araza]

I have a little bit of paranoia sometimes. Did I do that? Did I check it? There you go.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

But then I whisper, there's an old. I bet you know it Cunningham. There's an old quote from Richard Baxter, who is a puritan pastor. And it's the best preaching quote I think this ever. He said, I preached as never sure to preach again as a dying man to dying men. And I just look out and I remind myself, every single one of these people is going to be dead in 100 years. And it's my job to prepare them for that moment.

[Paul Cunningham]

I've been riffing on an idea in the back of my mind. One day I would love to ride on it, basically just trying to narrow down, hey, what are the 10 most important days of your life? I've got a few.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's a sermon series.

[Paul Cunningham]

Can work on it. Because like even. Cause what I would love to do in it is that a few of those days actually happened before you ever were born. Day of Christ's death, his resurrection, things like that. But one of those days is, hey, the day we're going to die. And that's connected to. If I had a life verse, it would probably be Acts 13, 36 where David served the purposes of God and it generation. And then he died, like, that's it. It's like, that is a great life. I serve God's purposes in my generation. I did what he put me on earth to do, and then I die and be with him forever. But going back to the idea of the day I die, you know, you talked earlier about reverse engineering it the day I die. I sometimes like to think, hey, what do I want the people at my funeral to have said about me? And then I stop and think, okay, if I kept doing everything I'm doing today, would those things be said? Because your life, my life, is perfectly designed to give you the results you're experiencing and will experience. And so if I kept doing everything I'm doing and those things wouldn't be said, I said, okay, what changes need to be made, what things need to be taken out, put in, so on and so forth. So I do think about in terms of, hey, my legacy, what I want people to say, but then it's also really the ultimate thing is the Bible says it is pointed once for a person to die and then comes judgment. Now, if you're a believer in Jesus, you don't have to be afraid of eternal separation from him, but there is this idea of commendation from the Lord. And I'm like, man, what do I want God to say? Not just well done, good and faithful servant, that's definitely a bit of value. But even just like looking back at my life like, hey, Paul, when you did this, you maximized what I give you in this area and that area and then basically said, I then reverse engineer that. So, yeah, so one of the most important days will be the day we die because of what will be said about us. And legacy would live with people who go beyond us, but then also because of the God that we're going to stand before.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Amen, man.

[Carlos Araza]

That's good, man. The truth is we all have stuff that we tend to hold on to a little too much sometimes. And, and it's always good to ask yourself, man, like God, would you show me what are those things in my life that I need to. That I need to recalibrate my focus to make sure that whatever I'm doing, I'm doing it for. For your glory, for the kingdom of God, not for my own kingdom. I think of the. I read this recently about the. The rich young ruler in the Gospels. You know this for the people that might not be familiar with this story, this is a rich young ruler who had the option of holding on to his material wealth or following Jesus based on the invitation of Jesus. And again, we don't know his name. We just know that his identity is the rich. He was rich, he was young and he was a ruler 2,000 years later. Today, if you think about it, he's no longer rich, he's no longer young, he's no longer ruling anything. But that was his identity. And again, he chose to hang on to something that just was not gonna last. And he, he missed the opportunity of following Jesus towards eternity into an abundant life. Again, it just reminds me and you mentioned a quote in your sermon CT studio. Yeah, he's such a stud. He's such a stud. He said something about like, hey, only one life, life twill soon be past. Only what's done for Christ. Well that's Jonathan Edwards actually said, lord, stamp eternity on my eyeballs. It's this idea of man, I just want to have your kingdom on my mind, on my eyes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That quote is, I've got a poster of it above the table in my office where I write all my sermons. Only one life twill soon be passed. Only what's done for Christ will last. It's a great one.

[Carlos Araza]

How do you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, you want to get practical? Yeah, let's get practical. There's a few things I got here because like, like, yeah, I, I got a lot. There's a lot of. The Bible has a lot to say about this and for anybody this is a big deal. I, I actually heard Rick Warren one time say in a sermon, hell for me would be God revealing to me everything I could have accomplished if I had lived by faith. And yeah, it's like I, you know, I do think about that like being shown what my life and my lineage and my household and Lake Point Church could have been if I had lived every day in light of that day. I do not want to be disappointed when I'm shown that. So I'll say a few things. There's like, obviously there's some obvious low hanging fruit. One is we are specifically commanded to make the best use of the time, which means not wasting time. So like I'll just say this like nobody's better at this than Janna. I just, I'm constantly, it's like they always, I'll have a reason I need to redownload them and then I delete them them. But just like time wasting at like the number of hours that the average person spends scrolling X or TikTok or social, it's like 18 hours a week.

[Paul Cunningham]

I looked it up. So what is it? Well, it's, it's actually, it's more than that. It's like six to seven hours a day. For Gen Z, extrapolated over a lifetime. So listen, extrapolated over a lifetime.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wait, is this just on social media or is this like on your phone? On your phone.

[Paul Cunningham]

Just on your phone.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Six to seven hours.

[Paul Cunningham]

So for Gen Z and, and you know, other generations are slightly lower, but still a lot. For Gen Z, that means that over the course of their life, they'll spend between 19 and 22 years on their phone.

[Carlos Araza]

This is why this podcast is going to be on their phone.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah. If you listen to this on your phone, it is kind of this, you know, weird, ironic moment.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

But.

[Paul Cunningham]

And when I say it's not to say it's all bad because sometimes people work with their phone. So you got to factor that into the numbers. But still, even if you half that, would you still want to say that you spent 10 years of your life on your phone?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And then you start thinking like, like, what could you have accomplished if I had reallocated that time to building something that mattered? I mean, you know, that's.

[Carlos Araza]

It's been said that attention is a new currency today, especially from a, you know, marketing perspective. Few people ever wonder why platforms like Tick Tock or Facebook or Instagram, they're. They're free. And people are like, you know, these are large corporations. Why are they free? Well, actually, people will think, well, we don't pay anything. Well, actually, you do pay something.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yes, exactly.

[Carlos Araza]

You pay with your. Something's infinitely more valuable. That's your time and your attention. That's why all these companies just really, literally want you to pay attention.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Did you. What was that. What was the documentary on Netflix called about social media?

[Carlos Araza]

Social Dilemma.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Social. The social dilemma. Dude, there was a line in that, Janet. I watched it on a vacation. We deleted, like, everything off a. This is a whole different podcast. A. Do you remember at the end of that documentary, all the guys who created the social media platforms, they reveal that they pay tens of thousands of dollars every year to send their kids to schools where screens are not available because they know that their products were designed to create addictions so that, like, these guys won't let their kids use the products they created and pay thousands of dollars to get their kids away from the products because they know what it does. So that. That's one, two. I heard it was got. Mark Drizzle said this years ago and it like, like, I never forgot it. I was a young man And I listened to a sermon he did on men and work, and he made. This is all he said. And every especially young men need to know this is applicable for everybody. But he said, the marketplace is a competition. You will have to outwork other men to succeed. I just want to let that sit like that. For every young man needs to internalize that. The marketplace is a competition. You will have to outwork other men to succeed. So. So if you're going, hey, dude, if you're spending six hours a day over here, dude, you're going to lose that competition. But what you'll notice over time in life is that the people who succeed that prosper, like, they get really good at. Let's go back to this. Making the best use of their time. They wake up every day. They're good at prioritizing things. It's like they got that thing in them that's like, I'm going to wake up today, kill something, drag it home, and. And they just go. They just go do it. They execute. They make the best use of their time. So let me just riff a couple things, like practically on this one is don't waste time. We all know that. Number two, I would say this is the concept of notice in the life of Jesus and the Apostle Paul. The radical focus they have. It's insane. Like, next time you read the Epistles and the Gospels, think through the lens of their ability to say no to the things that were not their primary mission. It's crazy.

[Carlos Araza]

That's good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It's like, I'll actually give it. This was liter. My Bible reading this Morning was Mark 4 and 5. I had never noticed this before, but we were prepping for this podcast and I noticed it. So right after Jesus heals the. The Garrison Demoniac, the Dude Legion, all the demons in him. I never noticed this. Verse 18 says, as he Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed with demons begged him that he might be with him, and he did not permit him. He tells him to go home. Then in the very next chapter, you'll see this. Jesus heals the woman with the issue of blood and jairus daughter. And then it's verse 37. And he allowed no one to follow him into the room where he does this except Peter, James and John. So what's really interesting is Jesus fiercely guards his relational outputs. He's like, man, I got. I love you all, but I have to say no to all these relationships so that I can say yes to the things that matter the most. If you notice the Apostle Paul. We're going to preach this in 2026. We're going to little reveal here. We're going to the last eight sermons of the. There is more series through acts. I'm going to. I'm riffing off the Avengers movie title. We're just going to call it. There is More end game. It's going to be awesome. I'm going to like it. I'm going to like it because the last eight chapters are Paul setting his face towards Rome. And it's his end game. He's like, I'm willing to trade my life if I can get the gospel to overtake Rome. And I'm willing to make that trade. Wow. It's the whole last eight chapters are him going. And he just fiercely says no to everything else. Nope, I'm going to Rome. I'm going to Rome. You know, I keep appealing up, so you see that over and over and over again. You see this in the life of Nehemiah. Remember, I think it's Nehemiah 3. You got these two dudes, Sandball and Tobiah, who are like, they're trying to distract him. Oh, by the way, the devil doesn't have to destroy you if he can distract you. So, like, just heads up, if he can just get you doing stuff that doesn't matter in eternity, he's fine with you. So that's what he. He sends Sambal and Tobiah to be like, hey, we have these accusations. And you know, where did you get your permit and your code for this? General contractor Nehemiah. And he essentially goes, here's what he says. I'm going to quote him. I am doing a great work and I cannot come down. And like every man of God and woman of God that has a. A mission in their life that doing something that matters in eternity, you have to have that in you. Hey, new. Hey, dude. I got a million opportunities. I am doing a great work and I cannot come down right now. So it's like, you can't get distracted on these things. So I would say that. And then last thing, if I'm going to get really practical. So, like, this may sound a little weird. So I'll talk about Pastor World. I'll peek behind the curtain into the weird world of pastors. So, like, I watch this, I coach a lot of younger pastors and I watch this happen to pastors, the guys who build the best ministries. They are not always the ones who are the most gifted or the smartest or the most educated. So here's what Happens is that every size. This is a little weird pastor world thing. And basically every size phase of your church, this whole new set of distractions becomes available to you. And it's. Who are the guys who can say no to the distractions that build the best churches and the greatest ministries? So as for our listeners, I'm going to. I'll give the pastor world example, but you need to think about mom world world or manager world, or I own a business world. So, like, what. What happens to pastors is your church starts growing, and then all of a sudden, people want you to speak at youth camps. That's the first thing. So it's like, you know, I got in. I did a billion youth camps before I became a pastor. And then if you're a decent speaker, people are like, come over here and do. My camp was like, I. I developed the ability to go, man, I could go over there and make an extra whatever, $1,500 this week, but I'm doing a great thing, and I kind of come down, I got a church to build. Then you get a. Your church gets a little bigger, and then people want you to speak at their churches. It's like, big churches want you to come speak at their churches. And I just, you know, and you can. You can make a little extra money and you can build your platform or whatever. But I was just like, to. To this day, I would estimate I say no to over 95% of speaking opportunities. I don't speak at conferences. I don't speak at other churches. Unless it's like a good buddy or I got a very, very specific reason. I say to all that stuff. And then it's like, you know, Paul knows this man, you know, And I say this with, you know, humility, but just because of what God's done at Lake Point, like, book publishers are. Have asked me a million times like, dude, would you write this? But we would love to. Would you consider a contract? And at least to this point in my life, the answer to every. Everything is, could I make, you know, sometimes honestly significant extra money? I'm like, yeah, honestly, no, man, I can't. Because I am called to build Lake Point church. And if it does not serve the people of Lake Point, I'm really not interested because I am doing a great thing and I cannot come down.

[Paul Cunningham]

And we were chatting about it even, I think, last week, and it was Lake Point, and it was family. It's like, at the end of the day, you would have to cheat time either from the church or from your family. And at this season of your life, you're like, hey, I can't afford that time. Doesn't mean you won't. One day. I won't put your name on it one day. But today, the greatest investment. You were talking to me last night, I mean, last week, I should say, was in your family and the church. Church.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So.

[Carlos Araza]

And you've said this, but I've seen that too, Josh. Just working with you, man. You know, getting to see just a little bit more what you do and some of the personal invitations that you get. I've seen you say, no, no, no. And I've seen you intentionally set those things aside because you're like, man, I got a church to lead. I got a church to pastor, and I got a family to love.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah.

[Carlos Araza]

And so, man, I've seen that. And so, man, I can testify to that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And I'm gonna give a mentor of mine a shout. Larry Osborne. Have you know Larry Paul?

[Paul Cunningham]

I don't know him personally, but he has mentored me from afar, just through list reading.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, we call him in the. In ministry world, we call him Larry Legend. Like Larry Bird. Do you know Larry Bird?

[Carlos Araza]

I do know Larry Bird. I'm. I'm an ep.

[Paul Cunningham]

He's saving private.

[Carlos Araza]

You can ask me, is that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Is that.

[Carlos Araza]

Is that in? I'm a fan of NBA. Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Larry Bird, Greatest magic and Bird. Let's go. Greatest trash talker in the history of the NBA. I have a Larry Bird rookie card.

[Paul Cunningham]

No, you do not.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yes. PSA graded 8. This a good one? It's a good one one. Nice. Anyway, how do we. Oh, Larry Legend. Larry Bird. Sorry. Larry Osborne, who is a pastor in California, built a great 10,000 person church, super Healthy church, in. In no, Cal. Northern Cal. Larry Osborne had a book that he wrote when he was young that went like nuts. I think it was called Sticky Church. Or was it Sticky teams?

[Paul Cunningham]

Maybe in sticky teams. I can't remember though. I think it's maybe.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And it went and went crazy. And then when he got home, his kids were still in the house, and one of his kids just let him know, like, man, dad, when you write a book, like, we don't see you much. And at the height of his authorship, you know, popularity, he sat his kids down and he said, until you guys are out of the house, I'm not writing another book. Wow. And he just said, because however much money I could make over here, time with you is worth more than that to me. And honestly, Larry's a. Like, in some ways has discipled me and I just did that with the kids. You know, I did two years ago. I spoke at some thing and, you know, I got a. They were super generous. And I literally, when I got home, Janet told me it had been a little tough, you know, you know, kids, and I, I sat the kids down, I literally showed them the check and, you know, for a little kid to see, you know where it was. $3,000, whatever it was, I don't know how much it was. That's. When you're a little kid, you're like, oh, holy Moses. Like, that's amazing. And I told the kids two years ago, I will say no to virtually every speaking opportunity until you guys are out of the house. Because one evening with you is worth More than $3,000 to me. And they have not forgotten that. So it's just, it's the ability to say no to secondary things so that we can stay focused on primary things that are going to matter in eternity.

[Carlos Araza]

Acts, chapter 20, verse 24. This is one of my favorite verses. Paul says, however, I consider my life worth nothing to me. My only aim is to finish the race and complete the task. The Lord Jesus has given me the task of testifying to the good news of God's grace. Paul's saying, man, I got, I got one aim. Everything else is secondary. It doesn't matter, man. Let's talk about how for somebody that's here, you're talking about habits and rhythms and disciplines. Honestly, we're excited because we're getting ready to launch like a big thing in our church called rude.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It.

[Carlos Araza]

And Rooted is a 10 week discipleship.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Experience where, you know, it is. I thought about this. Rooted is boot camp.

[Carlos Araza]

There you go.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Rooted is boot camp. For every disciple is, hey, man, welcome to team Jesus. This is what it means to grow in a relationship with Jesus in a deep way.

[Carlos Araza]

We want to help you be, become the disciple you have been called to be, who understands what your rhythms are for life. Not just for some, you know, obscure discipline, spiritual. Like, this is literally like your daily, weekly rhythms in community. And so know, every single week for Rudy, you basically go through a specific discipline. Prayer, community, generosity, repentance, and more. And so we're gonna. This is a big thing, by the way.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

One of the weeks is on stewarding your life. So it's like it specifically hits this.

[Carlos Araza]

So if somebody's joining right now and they're like, man, I'm not part of a group yet. This is literally designed for you. We want to help you. And so if that's you, text the word rooted to 20411. And we're gonna send you all the information to get you plugged in. And so yeah, man, it's gonna be great.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, Let me say, like I should have said we've elongated this and we needed to shred the Joe Rogan clip. But I do want to. So what I would say for, for guys especially, but for is really for everybody to get real practical and put a bow on this on stewarding your time. Number one, set your priorities. Like you need to pre decide your priorities and then you know, they need to be in alignment with the word of God. So hey, my pr. My primary priority is I'm on team Jesus. Jesus is my Lord. Lord. Number two now, now my job is my family. And then number three is my call, you know, my vocation, my calling. So set your priorities. My dad taught me growing up, children live by feelings, adults live by commitments. If you don't pre decide then you're really, your only input data is how do I feel in the moment. But if you set your priorities and you know what your priorities are, all of a sudden you have an evaluation grid by which. Yes to this, no to that.

[Carlos Araza]

Bro, that is so good. Say it one more time. To say honestly like it's, it's so necessary. Say it one more time.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Set your priorities. The live feelings versus children live by feelings, adult live. Adults live by commitments.

[Carlos Araza]

That's good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So if you don't pre decide what your commitments are and your priorities, then you're again, your stimuli is just how you feel in the moment. I got to pre decide what my priorities are. I would say this, I'm a, you know, I'm 42, I got three young kids. I got 14, 10, 6. I would say to cuz, guys, women have different, different little hang ups. What I see a lot of guys do, they get hijacked. Here is their life gets overtaken with hobbies. And I'll be honest, man, I'll look at some young dads and I'm like, bro, what are you doing? Like, so you know, when I'm discipling guys, I'll tell them you get one hobby one and it's expendable. You get one. So like I played a ton of golf in high school. A ton. And I like to golf. I have not played more than one round of golf per year since we had kids. And I'm not saying everybody's got to do that. You might be able to find a way to do that and not, you know, punt on your other Priority. But for me, that's, you know, that's. That's it. So you get one hobby, and it's expendable. And. Go ahead, Paul.

[Paul Cunningham]

Now, isn't it practical? Hack on that as your kids get older, then bring your kids into your hobby, if they'll accept it. So, like, for me, like, I like to hunt, and. But that's a lot of time away. And so when my son got enough, I started bringing him. And actually, it's great because then I get so much quality time that we actually dive into things that just. The little conversations in the car may never happen. So as they get old enough, and if they actually like it, too, don't try to force it down their throat, bring them into your hobbies, because then, yeah, it's the best thing.

[Carlos Araza]

That's great, man. Hey, this week's about the. The movie that we watched this week is about romance. And so I want to make sure we hit this very briefly because we got to get to that Joe Rogan clip. Marriage.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Is that about what?

[Carlos Araza]

The Joe Rogan clip.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

No, no. You said this is about what?

[Carlos Araza]

Romance.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Oh, I thought.

[Carlos Araza]

You're right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Romance.

[Carlos Araza]

Not romance. You're right.

[Paul Cunningham]

Sorry.

[Carlos Araza]

Let me.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Let me. I was like, I'm not prepared for this.

[Carlos Araza]

Yeah, man. Romance. That's right. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate your help.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I seriously was like, damn.

[Carlos Araza]

That. That helps you think? So you need to figure out how.

[Paul Cunningham]

To pronounce Pearl harbor. Not saying Private Ryan.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There you go. Yeah.

[Carlos Araza]

This week's movie is about romance. Thank you, Josh.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wait. I want you to say it one more time.

[Carlos Araza]

Romance.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah.

[Carlos Araza]

Let me just say you're romance before. You're right. I see it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, let me just say it. You're way better at saying English words than I am at saying Spanish words. So you. You. Hey, man, there's nothing you need to be laughing at. Me and Pa, I say this to.

[Carlos Araza]

People all the time. I'm not even kidding. I'm still learning how to speak English. People think I'm kidding. I'm genuinely.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You can't even tell that English is your second language.

[Carlos Araza]

I'm a learner. I'm okay with always learning new words and how to pronounce. You just helped me right now, and I'm not even kidding. Romance is when I immediately heard you say it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well, for the public record, I was not making fun of pronunciation. I was afraid. I didn't prepare for the discussion on romance.

[Paul Cunningham]

I was like, I didn't have that in my notes.

[Carlos Araza]

You're fine, man. Well, on that note, marriage Is actually, if you look at culture right now, you can literally like look up these statistics. It's at an all time low in this new generation, especially with the younger generation, especially with younger men. And so less people are getting married. The new generation of especially men, they honestly, they don't know how to do it. Like, they're like, well, we love to get a girlfriend. We'd love to do the whole relationship and marriage thing at some point. We just have no idea. So we're just going to. We're going to help out our single folks here, especially men. Then very briefly, man, rapid fire. Best biblical dating tips on how to do it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Let's. So we are gonna. This is gonna be rapid fire because, heads up, my plan is during the Love Life series through Song of Solomon to do like an episode of the pod. That's like a deep dive on dating. And we may do it as like a bonus app just because our. Our young adults need help. Help, you know, so let's rapid fire and then we'll deep dive during love life. So a couple things. First, let me just say. Great question, smart question, because the book of Proverbs, which is, by the way, a book just written from a dad to his son, that's really all the book of Proverbs is, is a dad, disciple. And his son.

[Carlos Araza]

I love that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And he tells his son, he's like, hey, man, whoever finds a wife finds a good thing. And a good wife is more precious than rubies. So, like, man, if you find a good wife, you found something way better than if you walked out in a field and there was a diamond back there. Like, so it's a big deal. So Bob Russell, pastor. That meant another pastor that mentored me.

[Carlos Araza]

Isn't he a basketball player too, bub?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Russell.

[Carlos Araza]

No.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Bill Russell. Bill Russell. This is great. Bill Russell. Bill Russell, I think won 11 championships with the Celtics. I think he has the most championships of any NBA player.

[Carlos Araza]

I like that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There you go. This is a really interesting podcast. Bill Russell, Bob Russell. When I was se. I was 18 years old, he. And he. I just got with him to ask him a bunch of questions about being a pastor. And at the end of the time, I was like, man, is there anything that I need to know at age 18 that you haven't told me yet? And he said, josh, what will most determine the outcome of your ministry is not what first church you take or what seminary you choose. It'll be what one wife you marry. He was 100% right. So number one, I would just say huge if somebody's asking the question, how do I date in such a way that I acquire. And I'll just. That's a word I'll use, that I acquire a good spouse. You're asking what might be the most important human side question of your entire life. Good job all. Let me rapid fire a couple quick things and then y' all jump in. Man number one, obviously you have the do not be unequally yoked verse. Yes. That means no Christian should ever date a non Christian, full stop, period. We don't do evangel dating at Lake Point. That is a terrible idea. But what I also think it means, a yoke was like a, like a wooden thing that put two animals together. So it's not just about direction, it's also about pace. So what I would say is, is just start running towards Jesus and the type of life that you want to live, and then just look around and who's running in the same direction at the same speed as me? And then. And then marry one of those.

[Carlos Araza]

That's good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Man number two. I think one of the most underrated Bible verses on dating is Proverbs 27:7. It says, the one who is full loathes honey from the comb. But to the one who is hungry, even what is bitter tastes sweet. What that means is that when your appetite goes up, your standards go down. That, my little joke is like, that's why you, you never go shopping, grocery shopping when you're hungry. That's when the sushi flavored Oreos start looking good. It's like, you're real hungry. You're like, oh, that sounds interesting. Appetite goes up, standards go down. So here's the big idea is you need to be really satisfied in Jesus. And then when your soul is full, you can move out. Out with high standards. And you won't settle for Mr. Right. You settle for Mr. Right now and miss out on Mr. Right. The other thing I would say, let's give another Bible verse. And we're gonna preach this in the next series. The song of Solomon, 5:16. It says, this is my lover, this is my friend. That's the Song of Solomon's definition of marriage. So what I would say is, when you're dating, here's what you're really doing. A, you're going, is this a good Christian? Then you're going, is this a good friend? You're trying to develop a really good friendship. You're not working on all the sex, romance, sexuality, passion stuff. That's marriage stuff you're working on. Man is This a really good friend that I can have fun with, talk to you about life. Just we're gonna have fun doing, doing nothing together. Work on building a good friendship. Especially guys. Because I do think because men are called to lead their marriages in humble, sacrificial, gentle, Jesus loving ways. I think that wise people, at the appropriate points in a dating relationship, like the man in that relationship, he's going to go ahead and start taking responsibility for some things if he's a godly man. What a godly man should be doing is he should be the one that should be taking responsibility for guarding the purity of the relationship. So if you're the guy, you should be the one that's like, hey man, we really like each other. And we actually have Bible verses like, it is better to marry than to burn with passion. Like the Bible is literally saying things like you're going to want to do things with each other you shouldn't do quite yet. And that's real normal. Actually. That's, that's healthy that you want to do those things. That's healthy. Not healthy to do those things yet. So we need to wait until timing matters. Timing matters. So the guy should be the one that sits down in the relationship and goes, hey, I like you, you like me. There's probably stuff that, you know, that you know, we got. We're humans. You should be setting boundaries because if you don't. I saw this in a lot of my college friends. If you don't do that, your job as the leader of the potential future relationship is to lead towards righteousness. And if you don't guard that, that and you do stuff that you shouldn't do when you're dating, you actually end up forfeiting the moral and spiritual authority to lead her later. And you're going to, you're going to have, it's going to be hard to make up that ground. Like, she doesn't trust you because you didn't, you didn't guard my body and you didn't guard our purity. So set the boundaries. I'd also A couple other quick things. I'm going use fishing analogies. Fish in the right ponds.

[Carlos Araza]

That's good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You know, it's like, like I'm not going to cast, catch bass in a catfish pond. So what I'm saying is like, if you're trying, if you're a, if you're a Christian person that's looking for a spouse and you're going to like bars and nightclubs and 30, a little good luck. Yeah.

[Carlos Araza]

A little different Than Lake Point.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, than a church. That's not, that's not where godly. That's not where you find godly spouses. So fish in the right ponds. I would say this man, especially to our ladies. This is. Can be true for men, but especially to our ladies. Pastors get crushed for encouraging Christian women towards modesty. But that's like literally a Bible verse and we're not scared of Bible verses. So what I would say to younger ladies is fishing analogy. If you fish with junk bait, you're going to catch junk fish. And what I'm saying is like, I'll just say it in a kind of a blunt way. Like what you like the kind of. If you're looking for a godly guy, guy that loves Jesus and he's going to build a godly happy family, by the way, that's what you want. That kind of guy is not looking for cleavage and a thigh gap. That's not his top priority, is what I'm saying. Like, yes, we want to try to be attractive. That's great. But his top priority isn't a lot of cleavage and a thigh gap or, you know, tight, whatever it is. So it's like, I would like, I'll just be honest. When I was in college, which if. When I saw girls dressed like that internally I was like, not for me, because I was going, you know, I want to be a pastor and I want to raise godly kids and daughters someday. And I'm not sure that she'd be on the same page. So fish with junk bait. You're going to catch junk fish. And then last thing I'll say is if you look for the Bible verses on how to find a great spouse, you're not gonna find any. If you look for Bible verses on how to become a great spouse, literally every verse of the Bible is going to help you out. So, so the, the what the Bible's did, the energy of the Bible is towards this little sentence that a million pastors have said before is try to become the type of person that the type of person you're looking for is looking for. For try to become the type of person that the type of person you're looking for is looking for. How I want to be attractive to the person I am trying to attract.

[Carlos Araza]

Let's go.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There it is.

[Carlos Araza]

That's great.

[Paul Cunningham]

Absolutely. What I was going to say he didn't hit it, was focus way more attention on becoming the right person instead of finding the right person. Sometimes when I, when I've worked with single, especially Guys, you know, a lot of them would make a list of things looking for in a spouse. I'm like, man, that's awesome. And it is, by the way, it's a good practice as long as those are biblically done. But then I say, hey, if I gave that list and I gave it to your future spouse, would they find you?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Big deal.

[Paul Cunningham]

And if the answer is no, then, okay, work on those things and start getting to work on them. And so, yeah, focus far more attention on becoming the right person than just simply trying to find the right person.

[Carlos Araza]

That's great, man. I would say for me, I mean, some people will think this is cliche, but pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray. Just don't stop praying. I don't know why. When I was in middle school, I just started praying for my future wife. I don't know why. I genuinely have no idea why. Looking back, I'm like, why would I be doing that? No, I don't know. But I've been praying for my wife since, literally, since I was a kid. And when I was in college, I was in Michigan in college, sophomore year. I'm literally. My prayer became God, I do not want to graduate my university without meeting my future wife. And literally, that's what I prayed for. Looking back, by the grace of God, I've been married for 11 years now, now almost. I. I don't think I'm that smart to be able to pick the. The woman that I, you know, I asked to marry me. I just. I don't think I have the talent. I don't know how I could have done it in my own capacity. All I see is God's grace to lead me in the right way, with the right people to the right moment. And. And, you know, and so again, it's a. I look back and I just. I can't give prayer enough, you know, credit of, like, man, God's grace. God's grace. I just begged God because I desperately, desperately needed help to find my future spouse. Because of what you said is true.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

True.

[Carlos Araza]

It matters so much.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right. Well, indeed, the Lord answered your prayer. Brooke is. The howerton family loves Ms. Brooke. She is a beautiful, wonderful, amazing. Well done.

[James Talo]

God's grace.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well done, my friend.

[Carlos Araza]

All right, man, we got.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Can I do one more thing, please?

[Carlos Araza]

Go ahead.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Can you guys put that dating manifesto up there? So this is. I got a pastor friend shout out Ashley Wooldridge. He. He does this. He did this in a sermon for the students at his church. He did it years ago. I Screenshotted it and I'm going to teach my kids this when they get to that age. So I wouldn't. Here's a little exercise to run if you're maybe a high school or college young adult and this your thing. So he just went, hey, four quadrants. Fill out the quadrants. So he went, hey, top quadrant, what are your must haves? And by the way, things like character, love for the Lord, love for the church, you know, purity of life should be there. Then second quadrant is nice to haves, you know, I don't know man. Do you like blue eyes? I don't know. What, what's your thing? I don't know. Put, put your nice to haves there. Like ah, I hope she's into music. I like, I'm not a music guy but you know, whatever your thing is. Then down at the bottom, bottom left quadrant, physical boundaries. Now here's the, here's why this is really important. Jan and I did this when we were dating. We set like, hey, we will not be alone after this time. Or you know, if we go on a date, we will do. We will be here, we won't be here. We did all of our dating in public places, that kind of thing. We will never, you know, this is an obvious one. We will never stay the night in the same place. By the way, dude, this whole thing.

[Carlos Araza]

It'S obvious to some people, not to other people.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Ex. That's what I'm saying. We got a lot of people who are brand new Christians. They're like, is that wrong? I didn't know I was wrong. Well yeah, don't do that. That's like putting yourself in a. Like if you are a red blooded male under the age of 70, that is staying alone with somebody that you're attracted to and dating like at night, bro, like what are you doing?

[Carlos Araza]

Proverbs calls that putting the guy, the author, it's a father to the son talks about that and he says, can a man put burning coals under lap and not burn burned?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yep, exactly. So just pre decide what your physical boundaries are going to be and just write them down. Write them down and then the last quadrant and this is really, really, really wise. Write the names of three mature Christians to confirm your choice. So like and I'll be transparent there, there were like I, I dated, I dated a couple people that I had wise people in my life. Be like, hey dude, she's a Christian. Yes. Loves Jesus, yes. But I see some things I think are not going to go well for you. Then Jana And I got set up on a blind date from the guy that discipled me and the guy that discipled her. My parents, who are godly people, great marriage. They meet Jan and they're like, this one, this one. Amazing. Every friend I had was like, this girl is amazing. So it's like, like, but this is really wise because when you, when emotions get high, logic gets low. So you, you get in, you're like super into this person and you chuck. Every amount of ounce of judgment you have just goes right out the window. So write the names of three mature Christians that could confirm your choice. There you go. Now we can.

[Carlos Araza]

Amazing, man.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's great. Great little exercise to do.

[Carlos Araza]

Well, let's jump in. We got a video Trinity. Would you help us prepare that video? And this is for a little bit of context. This is a Joe Rogan interview with James Talo. I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. And James is a, he is a American politician like you said, quote unquote, pastor, former teacher. And he is what?

[Paul Cunningham]

Go ahead.

[Carlos Araza]

Well, you, you described him with the.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Title pastor, pastor in the synagogue of Satan.

[Carlos Araza]

That's right. That's why I'm saying that's, that's, that's it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Self proclaimed.

[Carlos Araza]

And so man, let's, let's just jump in.

[James Talo]

So it just, I get suspicious when anybody, whether it's a televangelist or a politician tells me that something is central to my faith when Jesus never talks about it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wait, wait, actually let him keep going so we know what he's saying Jesus never talked about.

[James Talo]

To me, that should, I think, think ring alarm bells as to what is the agenda here. What is someone trying to, to get across? And I think if we're looking at the last 40, 50 years, the religious right has made a concerted effort to make homosexuality and abortion the two biggest issues for Christians.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, pause. So his. First of all, here's why we're doing this. A, the number of people that sent this to me was insane. B, it confused a lot of people and it went like super mega viral. So this is the kind of stuff you're going to hear a lot. So I just want to like walk through it biblically. So, Paul Cunningham, you start this. The James says, Jesus never talked about homosexuality. Let's do homosexuality first because he's going to talk about abortion later.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, I get suspicious, anyone, anytime someone uses the argument Jesus never talked about, fill in the blank. So my alarm bells start going off when I hear that because usually it just betrays to Me that the person is generally intentionally or unintentionally ignorant of just how biblical arguments work, biblical reasoning works, and things like that. And so I think when I hear things like this, I used to tell people three things we need to remember. Number one is Jesus Bible. Number two, Jesus identity, and number three, Jesus context. So in terms of Jesus Bible, he affirmed the authority of the Old Testament. He said, I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. And so that basically says, hey, everything in the Old Testament, I affirm that in terms of God's moral command commands, then we have to remember his identity that Jesus was God. And so when he says, oh, Jesus never said that, I'm like, well, if it said it in the Old Testament, he is God. Actually, it is his words. Now, it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. But we have to remember in Christian belief, God has one mind, not three. So it's not like the Holy Spirit and the Son of God are thinking different things. Oh, they're thinking the same thing. And so everything that the Holy Spirit inspired are Jesus's thoughts as well.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There you go.

[Paul Cunningham]

Including everything, including in the Old Testament. And then finally I have to remember Jesus context is Jesus never talked about things like idolatry either, even though idolatry was the number one sin in the Old Testament. And the reason is because that wasn't being debated. Jesus was around mostly Jewish people. They weren't debating that and weren't practicing it anymore. So he didn't need to address it. But what you see in Acts and in the epistles is all of a sudden, as the Gospel goes out into the gentile world where things like idolatry and homosexuality and other things like that are practiced, they do have to address it because they're in cultures that embrace that and where there is error.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's really good.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah. So again, so we have to remember Jesus's Bible, his identity and his context.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, so here's what I'll say in response to the. Because you hear this a lot. Jesus never talked about same sex attraction or marriage or whatever. So one thing I'll say is Jesus never said anything about nuclear warheads, bestiality, or paper straws, but they're all awful too, you know, And I just got to throw paper straws in there because I really want them to go away. But like, you know, so that's number one. It's an argument from silence. It's the weakest form of argument. Argument, argument from Silas. There's tons of stuff Jesus never explicitly talked about that everyone knows are evil. Everyone knows that. Number two is.

[Carlos Araza]

Can I say something?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, please.

[Carlos Araza]

And yet he did. He did talk about sexuality. He did. Okay. Okay, go ahead.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. Number two, that's just not true that Jesus never talked about this. So if here. Here's my analogy. If somebody were to ask me, hey, Josh, who. If they walk in a lake, point. They go, hey, Josh, who's your wife? Wife. Which one's your wife? There's two ways that I can make clear who my wife is. Either I can point to 24,999 people and individually say, that's not my wife. And that's not my wife. And that's not my wife. And that's not my wife until no one's loved but Janna. Or I can just point to Janet and go, that's my wife. And by implication, everything else is not my wife. Okay, so what Jesus does over and over again multiple times in the Gospels, is he defines what is acceptable sexual expression and what is biblical marriage. So instead of having to literally name, for instance, I mentioned this. Jesus never addresses bestiality or incest. Everyone knows those things are wrong.

[Carlos Araza]

Only fans.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, only, you know, we're talking about only fans. So what Jesus did is he went, man, I can't. I'm not going to list every single thing that is wrong. That's impossible. Take forever. So let me just go, here's what's right. And then, by implication, everything else is out. So this is Matthew 19. Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked Jesus, is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason? Jesus responds. So words of Jesus right here, haven't you read? He replied that at the beginning, the Creator made them male and female, so transgenderism is out. And said, for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother. So, like, lazy, don't work, live in your mom's basement forever. That's out. And be united to his wife. So in other words, we need. We get married, and the two will become one flesh. So what you have there is you have the definition of marriage. And then he says, therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate. What you have there is a sexual, heterosexual, lifelong covenant union between a man and a woman. And Jesus goes, that's what's right. By implication, everything else is out.

[Paul Cunningham]

And I love you went to that text because when Jesus defines marriage, it's usually in response to questions about divorce. So Jesus could have simply said, don't divorce. Like he could have answered the question really briefly and said, no. He could have even quoted part of it, said, well, God has brought together, let people not separate. But I think he knew what he was doing. He intentionally went back and even defined the whole scope of marriage and then went on there. That's just one thing I think is important to point out. So, yes, he didn't use specific language around homosexuality, but he knew what he was doing when he defined it. He could have simply said, nope, don't get divorced. But he actually gave a positive definition of marriage and identified the target like you said.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You will also, to Paul's point, you'll hear people sometimes, and there's a wonderful grace in this. You will hear people sometimes mistakenly be like, oh man, there's a few Old Testament clobber passages is actually just reaffirmed in the New Testament. So here's your homework. Go read Romans 1 or 1 Corinthians 6. And here's what I love about 1 Corinthians 6 is he lists all these sins and he lists things like theft and murder and, you know, there's a few other slander, a few other things. And then he goes, and men who practice homosexuality. And he goes, man, these people will not inherit the kingdom of God. And he's saying, if you continue in these sins in an unrepentant way, then that is an indication you have not placed your faith in the lordship of Jesus and submitted to him. So he won't inherit the kingdom of God. But then he goes, and such were some of you, but you were washed, you were cleansed, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus.

[Carlos Araza]

That's gospel, that's grace and good news.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So it's simply untrue that Jesus and especially the New Testament ever talk about this. It specifically does. You want to keep going?

[Carlos Araza]

Let's keep going.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, actually, I say one more thing. Please do, actually. So I'm so sorry I cut you off. I think even just to help people clarify is it's a common misnomer to say, oh, the religious right has made these two issues. The biggest issue. No, no, no. The biggest two issues is the lordship of Jesus and the authority of his Word. And so anytime you're going to challenge that, we're going to respond. And then with that. One thing that sometimes theologians or historians like to say is that heresy often precedes orthodoxy. Not in the sense that we make up what we believe, but when what we believe begins to be challenged, we then have to directly and clearly articulate what Christians have always believed so it may seem like we're the ones who are elevating these things. We're simply responding to what the culture has elevated.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, that's one of my. Dude, as a pastor, that's like one of my pet peeves, is like the entire culture will scream about an issue, and it's like every commercial, every movie, every talk show, everything you read is about this issue. And then a pastor addresses it.

[Paul Cunningham]

Like you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's the only thing you focus on, bro. Are you kidding? Like, preach the Bible only, are you guys. I hate that. All right, let's keep going.

[Paul Cunningham]

Keep going.

[James Talo]

And you know, the Southern Baptist Convention was pro choice until the late 1970s.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, pause. Do we want to do all of the. Do we want to listen to the whole thing and then go to arguments, or do you want to clip by clip?

[Carlos Araza]

Let's do that. Let's do clip by clip. Yeah, because I want to make sure we answer that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So, Paul Cunningham, the Southern Baptist Convention was pro choice until the 1970s. What say you?

[Paul Cunningham]

No, just a great example of maybe a half truth being twisted to try to make your argument. Argument. I actually think we have the text that we're going to put up of a resolution from 1971.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You've pulled it.

[Paul Cunningham]

I pulled it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I pulled it.

[Paul Cunningham]

So if we're going to say this, he memorized it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Of course he did not memorize it.

[Paul Cunningham]

But we're going to say these things. Let's actually read context. We're going to skip down actually to where it says, be it therefore resolved. Be it therefore resolved at the Southern Baptist Convention. This is a key line while reaffirming our historic commitment to the sanctity of life.

[Carlos Araza]

What year was this?

[Paul Cunningham]

This is 1971. So in other words, what they're about to say before they say, while reaffirming, they were saying, hey, we are pro life. And then it goes on, and it does say, call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow for the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformality, and then likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental and physical health of the mother. So they were not pro choice. They were pro life. But as a denomination, did decide that they would say, hey, there are some exceptions that we believe should be legal. Now, that doesn't mean that we have to agree with what they said, by the way, because a few years later, I do not. There was what was called the conservative resurgence, that there were very liberal elements in the Southern Baptist Convention at this time. And over the next 10 to 15 to 20 years, there was a resurgence that basically said, hey, we have drifted away from the Bible and we need to reclaim that. So I'm not saying this to say, hey, we agree with what Southern Baptist wrote here. It's really just trying to give the greater context of saying, hey, while we're reaffirming our commitment to the sanctity of human life. So they were not pro choice, they were pro life life, with exceptions.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'll add this. So the implication that James, Synagogue of Satan, Pastor, whatever his name is, what his implication is like. And by the way, if somebody's listening, like that's mean. I'm gonna explain why I'm saying that later. Yeah, it's not mean. It's actually a very loving thing to be very clear about something like that. So. But the implication he's trying to make is man. Actually, this is something that you're just disagreed on and various opinions agree to disagree. That's right. That is just historically radically false. So like all the way back to something called the Didache, which was a collection of Christian writings like right after. Actually the Didache was written before the Book of Revelation, if I remember right.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah. Well, in this late 90s, early hundreds, many would say it was written concurrently with the Gospel of John.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There you go.

[Paul Cunningham]

This is still in the time when some of the apostles were living in early Christians.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So here's a quote from the Didache, the earliest Christians.

[Carlos Araza]

What is it? Explain it for the people that have no idea what that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It's like a collection of devotional writings. How would you describe it?

[Paul Cunningham]

Literally just means the teaching. It's like a church manual. It's like an early church manual basically saying, hey, here's just a list of the things. Yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There's. Here's a quote from the did.ad 70. You. This is pretty straightforward. You shall not procure abortion. Like, it's kind of straightforward. This is. Here's one from what was called the Letter of Barnabas. It's an apocryphal deal, but it's a. Dated to around AD 74. Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring Abortion. Abortion. Early church Father Tertullian, AD 197. Here's a quote from Tertullian. Murder being once for all forbidden, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb. Tertullian, 197 AD Wow. Here's John Chrysostom, I think. Didn't they call him Golden Mouth? The Golden.

[Paul Cunningham]

He was One of the greatest preachers in the history.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's what they say. Yeah. A lot of people say John Chrysostom. Yeah. And he refers to. In a John Chrysostom sermon. Sermon, murder before the birth. So it's like this is the uniform testimony of the church for since the beginning.

[Paul Cunningham]

If we fast forward a thousand years, Thomas Aquinas talking about something called the sentences, he who destroys life in the womb incurs the guilt of murder. So even, like, sometimes I think he's just basically the guys trying to say, oh, yeah, it's just agree, disagree issue. People disagree. Like, no, if I put you in a travel machine, time travel machine, and we went to any time before, really last 50 years, like, this view would have been described as heresy.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah.

[Paul Cunningham]

I mean, just outright heresy.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah.

[Carlos Araza]

And just to clarify, we don't have time to expand too much on this, but for somebody that's listening in and it's curious because they're like, well, but do you agree with the 1971 position of like, yes, pro life, but with some of these exceptions, Josh, you would.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Say, I do not.

[Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. I do not. Now, by the way, tremendous, overwhelming, like, compassion, passion for any circumstance like that. But no, like. And dude, so many people like, Josh, are you crazy? That's what you believe? I'm like, actually, no, that's not what I believe. That's what the Bible says. And I'm gonna be a Bible guy. And the Bible's just really clear. You shall not murder. Murder equals the taking of innocent life. There's a whole different podcast. There's. There's the just taking of life and the unjust taking of life. The just taking of life are things like the death penalty for appropriate criminal offenses and the unjust taking of life is anything else. So I'm just like, hey, man, I do not think one sin necessitates another egregious. Another sin.

[Carlos Araza]

I'm sure we'll address all of this because I'm sure people are going to be asking some more questions in a future episode. Just FYI. That's coming soon. Let's keep going.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well, when was abortion even invented?

[James Talo]

Well, there was certainly abortions in the ancient world. There. There's some. Well, there's some. There's. And again, I haven't stated this enough to. To say this definitively, but there are interpretations of certain passages from the Torah where some folks will even say that there is a. There's some subtle instructions for how to perform an abortion in the ancient world. Certain things to Drink, things like that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Let's pause. You want to start or you want me to start?

[Paul Cunningham]

You're probably in a more.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, let me talk about what he's referring to. Okay. He's referring to numbers, chapter 5, numbers 5, 11, 31. It gives these. It's an Old Testament law, and it's giving the instructions for what the nation of Israel should do when there's a woman accused of adultery, but there are not witnesses. So the husband has reason, maybe biological reasons, to believe that his wife has been unfit faithful, but there's not multiple witnesses. Numbers five is prescribing what should have been done in Old Testament Israel in that circumstance. And here's I'll. I'll give a quick description of it. So that the priest would put the woman under oath and make her swear under penalty of a curse that she was innocent of adultery. After the wife swore her innocence, her oath was written on a scroll. Next, the priest put the scroll into the water until ink came up off the water, at which point he removed the scroll from the cup. Then the priest took the grain offering from the woman, burned it on the altar, and she would drink the bitter water. If innocent, then the bitter water would have no effect. But then if guilty, there would be a physical consequence. And there's debate about how the translation of the physical consequence. We can get to that in a second. But that's what he's referring to. Paul, your response?

[Paul Cunningham]

Three issues. Number one, the text never mentions pregnancy. Pregnancy, yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Very important. Interesting.

[Paul Cunningham]

Number two, this is about. And you are basically saying this, it's about divine judgment, not human abortion.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Paul Cunningham]

And then number three, traditional Jewish interpreters have never seen this as about abortion. And so one thing that I actually like when I'm teaching people how to interpret the Bible is that if you're seeing something no one has seen before, it's because it isn't there. I mean, that's why even when we were referring to people and they're viewing this throughout history, tradition can be a bad thing, but conditional can also be a good thing. Tradition is the democracy of the. The dead. It's where dead people get a vote. And if no one really has seen this until again, the last 50 years and interpret the text in this way, that should give us pause. So, yeah, those are just three huge issues with this text in terms of using this of any kind of a reference to justify abortion at the Bible teaches abortion.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's exactly right. So the things to keep in mind, so. And we don't need to deep dive into this. Let's keep going through the clip. But essentially there's, there's debate about the translation of the physical consequence that, you know, the Bible says would happen under the judgment of God. Most people translate it the falling away of the thigh. What he's doing is some people will translate it as like the shriveling up of the womb. And then he's imputing into the text, as Paul mentions, pregnancy is never mentioned that. Ah, well, if, if she was pregnant because of the adultery, then it's talking about the miscarriage of there. And number one, Paul mentioned. Mentioned that's pregnancy is never mentioned. Number two, that's the, that's not the likely interpretation of the passage. Number three, we just need to acknowledge this. It is not culturally popular to acknowledge this, but the potter has the right. Over the clay, anytime that God decides to take life, he can do that because he created it. That does not give us the ability to do that.

[Paul Cunningham]

And with this, if you're listening to this, you're not familiar with this, is that there was also not just punishment for the woman, but for the man as well. So if you're just hearing there's like, oh, why was it just for the one. No, no, no. It was also punishment, punishment for the man. This was just basically the test to see if something had happened.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, that's right. Let's go on that.

[James Talo]

The point is that this idea that there is a set Christian orthodoxy on the issue of abortion is just not rooted in scripture.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We can have a do not pass honest debate about it.

[Carlos Araza]

Pope Francis say more about that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I just said, do not go. Do not collect 200 hours. We don't need to talk about this. We already mentioned the uniform. It's clear testimony of church history.

[James Talo]

You know, were to come back and sit at this table and tell me, you know, James, I'm pro life and anti abortion. Here's my theological argument. I am here to listen and respect that opinion. I have, I have dear friends who, who are anti abortion. All I'm asking is that for Christians who are pro choice and who respect the bodily autonomy of women, that we be given the space to make our theological argument. Because I think there is a lot of, of biblical evidence to support that opinion.

[Paul Cunningham]

What do you think?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So a couple things. He's gonna go into these arguments. I'll just. So you gotta watch this. I, I did debate team in high school. Here's what you gotta watch out for. The. What people always say is, whoever controls the terms wins the debate.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So if you frame it in terms of bodily. So that's what people do, is they'll smuggle in language that. That also smuggles in assumptions, the bodily autonomy of women. Okay, that's actually not. We're talking about man, because there's two bodies involved, not just. Just one. That's what you got to watch out for. There's two bodies involved, not just one. We're not talking about bodily autonomy. We're talking about. You're saying you have the right over somebody else's bodily autonomy. That's what happens when you take somebody else's life in utero. All right, let's keep going.

[Paul Cunningham]

What do you think is the biblical evidence to support the opinion of being pro abortion?

[James Talo]

So one. You know, in Genesis, God creates life by breathing life into the first human being, which we later call Adam. That life starts when you take your first breath. And that is actually the. The. The. The mainline position in Judaism is that that's when life starts.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Pause. Okay.

[Paul Cunningham]

So, all right, you go, like, appealing to Adam's creation to define when life begins. It's like using the burning bush to define laws of botany and thermody.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, there you go.

[Paul Cunningham]

In the sense of. Those are. It's a supernatural exception. It's not the norm and the pattern. Okay. And so, I mean, like, I'd say, like, it's just a general thing. I say we gotta be careful about taking a supernatural exception in scripture and then saying, all right, and then this defines the pattern for the rest of scripture. That'd be number one. So Adam was not conceived. He was created uniquely from the dust.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Here's the. That's the point. Adam was never a fetus.

[Paul Cunningham]

He was never a fetus. And that's what I'm saying is he's a supernatural exception. You can't then say, oh, therefore everything. The other thing would be, is that Scripture teaches that human life does begin in the womb, not at birth. I mean, even just a few places. Number one in Luke, when it talks about the baby leaping in Elizabeth's womb.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

First person to ever worship Jesus.

[Paul Cunningham]

First person to ever worship Jesus. An unborn child. And the word that is used, baby, brephos, is the same word that is used of infant and children.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wow.

[Paul Cunningham]

So it doesn't distinguish. It's the same thing. You obviously have texts like Psalm 139, Jeremiah, where it says, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. But I also think a key thing here is from, like, the breath of life is a poetic image. And what's interesting is later in Ecclesiastes, we get that same kind of imagery. This is what it says, as you do not know the way the spirit or wind or breath comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child. So here he's trying to make the argument of, oh, no, breath is what gives life. That doesn't happen until the baby is outside. Here it says that the breath comes to the baby while it is still in his mother's womb. And so, yeah, yeah, he got it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I don't need anything, had anything. He nailed it.

[Carlos Araza]

And he did say. Did he say that it was like the mainstream Judaism, like, Judaism perspective. Is that, is that true?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That I don't know anything about that.

[Paul Cunningham]

It might be true today, but there's been variations. I mean, like, for example, you've got Philo, who is an early Jewish rabbi, who would have said abortion was wrong and kind of a thing. And so. And again, even if it's a mainstream belief, doesn't mean that it's right.

[Carlos Araza]

We're going Bible.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, Bible, Bible.

[James Talo]

Then if you think about it from a Christian perspective, what something interesting that Jesus does throughout his ministry is he is breaking first century norms about women, talking with women, learning from women, having women lieutenants in his movement. And this was something that was kind of unheard of in the first century. The longest conversation Jesus has with anybody in the whole Bible is with the Samaritan woman of the, the will. And so this, this affirmation of, of women as full and equal people is a huge part of the Jesus movement, especially the early church.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Pause. First of all, we agree with his last sins. Yeah, that's, that's really important. We totally agree with his last sins that Jesus did treat women as full and equal people. He did not equals, but not equivalents. That's a whole different discussion, you know, but to totally agree. But let me just say, like, that's quite a leap to go from. Jesus had a long conversation with a woman one time, therefore that's quite a leap.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, literally I wrote it down. I didn't. I think I had two bullet points. And one was like, yes. And I guess just like, yeah, like you said, I totally agree, man. And we need to remember that too, in terms of how Jesus treated women. But then even going to the Didache and other writings and the earliest Christians, who were the closest to Jesus by the way, than we are, did not then use that to then justify abortion.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yes. So, yes. Yeah. I just want to point out like a. I would just be like, yeah, man, but like Jesus Forbade murder. Really, this whole, the whole discussion like is, you know, you can have a million emotional situations thrown out and that stuff. As Christians, we should care. We should weep with those who weep. We should be the ones that like. That's the reason we give huge amounts of money at Lake Point Crisis pregnancy centers, foster care and adoption. All the you women who are victims of sex trafficking. There's a reason we like do we go all out on that stuff. Our SOAR Ministry for kids with special needs. There's a reason we go out on stuff. So you can throw out all of the emotional things that'll pull you emotionally. Really, here's the only question. Is it murder? That's the only question that matters. Is it murder?

[Paul Cunningham]

We didn't get to this, but it might be helpful to do it now is. Can I just briefly state like the historical Christian case in terms of the reason reasoning of why we believe this is okay? And I actually take this from Andrew Walker, who adapted this from David Beckwith, who wrote a book called Defending Life. So basically, four premises. Number one, an unborn child is a member of the human species. So whatever is in the mother's womb, is it either living or dead? Well, it's living. Okay, well then if it's living, it's a living. What? It's a living human. So an unborn child is a member of the human species. We gave texts already throughout the Bible in terms of where we see that life begins in the womb. That leads to point number two. Two, it is morally wrong to take the life of an innocent member of the human species. Book of Exodus, you shall not murder. Proverbs 6, 16, 17. God hates the shedding of innocent blood. I mean that's just. You got to feel the way that he hates the shedding of innocent blood. Number three, abortion takes the life of a member of the human species, which leads to number four. Therefore, abortion is immoral. That's the case. It's that simple case.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And again, we're going to move on, but we'll keep going back to, to that all of this is. But in the same way, there's a reason the New Testament talks about and such were some of you, yes, but you were washed, you were cleansed. So what I always want to say, and I just want to interject it to what like I, Jan and I pray with women who have terminated pregnancies and they. You have the grief that sometimes, you know, we'll pray with somebody in the lobby is unspeakable. And what we always remind them is, hey, the death that most defines your life is not the death of your son or your daughter. It's the death of the son of God that cleanses you from all sin.

[Carlos Araza]

There you go.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And so you need to sleep really good tonight just knowing the Father is pleased with you. So I wanted to get that in. Let's keep going.

[Carlos Araza]

That's right.

[James Talo]

And then the last, I think, story I would go to is the story of Mary.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Dude, this is hilarious.

[James Talo]

Mary is probably my. My favorite figure in the Bible, the mother of Jesus. And. And she's an oppressed peasant teenage girl living in poverty under an oppressive empire as a Jew. And she has a vision from God that she's going to give birth to a baby who's going to bring the powerful down from their thrones, going to scatter the proud, who's going to send the rich away empty. I mean, this revolutionary song that she sings, it's called the Magnificat, and it's actually been banned by certain authoritarian regimes because it is so radical. But I say all this in terms of context, abortion, because before God comes over Mary and. And we have the incarnation, God asks for Mary's consent.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

No, he didn't.

[James Talo]

Which is remarkable. Go back and read this. And I'm going to read it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

By the way. We're pro consent.

[James Talo]

By the way, angel comes down and asks Mary if this is something she wants to do. And she says, if it is God's will, let it be done. Let it be. Let it happen. So to me, that is a. An affirmation in one of our most central stories, that creation has to be done with consent. You cannot force someone to create. Creation is one of the most sacred acts that we engage in as human beings. But that has to be done with consent. It has to be done with freedom. Freedom. And, and to me, that is absolutely consistent with the ministry and life and death of Jesus.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, pause. So first of all, I just want to make very, very clear. All Christians should unequivocally consent. Like, that's like. Let me just. But, well, what people do on the Internet is like. But so you're saying. So I just, like, honestly, dude, like Old Testament, I think that forcible rape should be a death penalty. Guilty. So let me just get that out there. So very, very, very pro consent. But this is a weird thing to say, Paul. Why is it a weird thing to say?

[Paul Cunningham]

Well, so he said, go back and read it. So I would love to.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That'd be great. Before.

[Paul Cunningham]

Actually, can we just stop and like, this is When I read, when I listen, this is probably the part that infuriated me the most. Like, do you really want to base your theology of abortion on the fact that Mary could have aborted the Son of God, that he could have killed the son of God 33 years before everybody else got a chance? Is that really, like, what you want to base your theology of abortion on? But I can revisit that another time. So let's actually go and read the text like he told us to. So the angel said to her, do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, I'm going to put some emphasis on words because I think you're going to see a pattern. You will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name, Jesus. Shall it be a command? He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever. In his kingdom, there will be no end. And Mary said to the angel, how will this be since I am a virgin? And the angel answered her, the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, your relative Elizabeth, in her old age, has also conceived a son. And this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren for nothing will be impossible with God.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You skipped the. If it's okay with you, would this be okay with you?

[Paul Cunningham]

No, I was literally gonna stop there. And so did you guys hear, like, any, like, place where God said, hey.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Would it be okay with it if it's okay?

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah, if it's okay. So, like, all these statements are firm. This is going to happen or you shall do this.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It just raises wild. He just, like, literally made up a Bible, and then that's wild. Yeah.

[Paul Cunningham]

And then it does say, and Mary said, behold, I am the servant of the Lord. Let it be to me according to your word. And the angel departed from her. So actually, when I was thinking about this, if anything, this confirms our viewpoint, which is she basically says, I am going to be obedient. So, yeah, she, in a sense, did give consent to obey. So the question would be, if she had not given consent, what would that have been? Sin. It would have been disobedience. But never in any place do you get any hint of God saying, hey, as long as it's okay with you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So I just want. Let me boil this down. Is that the end of the clip?

[Carlos Araza]

I think we're down.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So here's what I'm going to point out. Here's the big idea. Zoom out for that dude. James. Synagogue of Satan. James. All of these obscure passages with like looney interpretations are secretly about abortion, but you shall not murder isn't. It's like, that's really you. Zoom out. That's what's going on. All these obscure passages that have this, you know, secret interpretation that nobody's ever noticed before, those are about abortion. But you shall not murder isn't. That's your problem. There's problem.

[Carlos Araza]

Couple questions briefly for you, Pastor Josh, but why are you talking about this? This is a political issue. You're a pastor.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. So what I would say is, no, no, people keep saying that the church is getting more political. And I'm like, no, no, the church is not getting political. Politics are getting spiritual. That's. It's my little riff. I say it all the time because I get accused of this all the time. Church getting political. Nope, it's not. Politics are getting spiritual. When the government move past things like building roads and issuing driver's licenses and teaching math to things like redefining marriage, erasing gender, reframing abortion as quote unquote, reproductive rights, and then indoctrinating everybody's kids into believing those things via the government school system, hey, the church didn't move. Politics did. And whenever, whenever the government moves out of its lane and into the church's lane about things like morality, definitions of life and marriage, it's the job of the church. When we get like, we could someday, we should like super nerd out on like Kyperian sphere sovereignty. Abraham Kuiper and sphere sovereignty. Theology of societal arrangements. But whenever the government moves out of their lane and into the church's lane, it's the job of the church to like, hey man, get back in your lane or I'm gonna have to put you in the dirt. And that. That's what's happening right now. Church is going, hey man, get back in your lane. You don't. You don't define what life is. Marriage is, Gender is. Is. No, no, that's God's job. Get back in your lane and submit to the lordship of Jesus.

[Carlos Araza]

Here, here's one more. Wait. But Christians are supposed to be nice and you just called him pastor of.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Synagogue of Satan, so I would just. Dude, Paul referenced it earlier. Jesus said, anyone who causes one of these little ones to sin, it would be better for him to have a millstone. Tied around his neck. Than to. Than to continue. So, dude, when people accuse us of being clear, this is somebody who is publicly on the largest podcast in the world influencing Christians towards sin. And not just sin, but sin that results in the. The mass taking of innocent human life. That is not a moment for measured words. Let's be nigh. No, no, that's a moment to be like, situation. Sit down, shut up, and you are resulting in people dying. So if somebody's like, hey, Josh, that's mean. No, no, what's mean is allowing someone to continue teaching things that if believed, will result in death and people going to hell. That's mean.

[Paul Cunningham]

And it's biblical, by the way. Even when you say synagogue of Satan, if people don't realize, you're really just referring to a term that's in Scripture.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, sorry, that's. I'm quoting Revelation 3.

[Paul Cunningham]

Yeah. And then also, like, if you read through the epistles and even look through Jesus, where they get heated and they're not afraid to do things, like, this is when the flock is being attacked and misled. So even like in Galatians, when false teachers are trying to lead them away around the issue of circumcision, Paul literally says, I wish they would just God.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's what he says. Galatians five, six, something like that.

[Paul Cunningham]

And so you see, like, scripturally, anytime the flock is being misled, basically, Christian leaders have the responsibility to rise up and speak very pointedly and call it out.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, that's Carlos. That's why I asked to do this on podcast, because. Because again, the number of people who sent that clip to me, and it was people who like, hey, what do you think about this? They were confused. And honestly, let me just, like, gently, because there's a lot of pastors that watch this. Part of the reason that a lot of Christians are confused is because the pulpits have not been clear. So, like, that's our job. Let's do our job.

[Carlos Araza]

Jude 1, verse 3. Beloved, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints. That's it, man.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's it. Before you finish this, I just want to point one other thing out about this guy. So that clip went insanely viral. Like, insanely viral.

[Carlos Araza]

I think Joe Rogan said he should run for president.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

He did say he should run for president, which is terrifying. What I want to point out, I went and scoped out this guy. First of all, I think he pastor a church of like, 11 people. It's like, I just. You can just tell. That's a whole side note. Like, this is a whole different podcast. Progressive Christianity grows social media platforms but shrinks churches. I'll just. That is a thing. That is totally a thing. This guy, like, came on the scene preaching against Christian nationalism. He was like, all these. Like these. These politicians are trying to use the Bible to influence their. Their policy, and that's evil. Christian national nationalism. Well, what I want to point out is he's preaching against Christian nationalism, and then he's using obscure, incorrect, and loony interpretations of scripture to inform his public policy decisions. So you'll see this a lot. Progressive Christians are extremely politically active. Like, way more politically active than conservative Christians. Someday we should talk about this. The data around the political activity of progressive Christians. Christians vastly more politically engaged than conservative Christians, which is really interesting. Whole different thing. But what you'll notice conservative or progressive Christians do is they do Christian nationalism for me, but not for thee. They constantly do that. So they accuse conservative Christians of. You guys are doing Christian nationalism. It's not fair for you to bring your personal beliefs into the public square. And then they'll walk out and they'll be like, well, Jesus was an immigrant, so we should have open borders. Borders. Jesus fed the poor, so we should have, you know, unlimited welfare and USAID and universal basic income. Jesus. You saw this two years ago. Tons of these statements from progressive Christians where they would talk about, Jesus makes a comment about eunuchs, and we don't have. I don't want to talk about this right now. He makes a comment about eunuchs, and some people were made eunuchs, and some people became eunuchs, you know, by choice, that kind of thing. And progressive Christians who were politically engaged pointed to those like, see, it's okay to be transgender. We should have affirming transgender laws. So my point is, the same dude that gets famous preaching against Christian nationalism goes on Joe Rogan and is like, hey, because of my beliefs about Scripture, here's what the public policy should be. Christian nationalism for thee. For me, but not for thee.

[Carlos Araza]

There you go.

[Paul Cunningham]

And before we close, I think even just you basically hinted this earlier. Said it, but I think it's worth saying again is when we're saying all these things, we remember, like, Jesus died for him. He made these wrong comments, and he died for every person who's ever performed an abortion, had an abortion, or anything like that. So we want to be very. That's the beauty of the gospel. I mean, even like, the Apostle Paul was like, man, I persecuted the church and he had wrong ideas about Jesus and Jesus confronts him on the road. Why are you persecuting me? And yet the beauty of the gospel is that Jesus died for Paul and he died for everyone. We've been taught talking about. And we also are people and pastors who when we see air spreading and it is taking people away from that Jesus, we also have to come. And while we're not attacking trying to attack people, we do want to destruct ideas. And so I think that's just a nuance I make sure we wanted to share is that man Jesus died for every person. We have a heart for them to come to know Jesus, but we also want to keep people from going away from the way of Jesus by being clear what he taught.

[Carlos Araza]

The Bible says love people destroy arguments.

[Paul Cunningham]

That's right.

[Carlos Araza]

And that's what we want to by the grace of God, keep doing. Pastor Josh, would you please pray for us?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Lord Jesus, thank you for the infinite grace you've given us. And Lord, just even right now, I'm reminded that that every man at this table, we are all responsible for the death of the Son of God. And so just like your word says, we are all alike under sin and good news, we have a Savior that loves, died for and cleansed sinners. Father, thank you for your grace. I pray that truth would permeate the hearts of your disciples. I pray that we would be men and women of conviction, compassion, courage. I pray that grace, the grace of Jesus Christ, friend of sinners, would be the flavor of our hearts. And Lord, I pray for our people that you would lead them in paths of righteousness for your name's sake. So Lord, we love you. We give these things to you as a sacrifice in the name of your son. Amen.

[Carlos Araza]

Amen.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church Online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church Livefree. We'll see you next time.