How America Is Being Taken Over by Islam!? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary: Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode Title: How America Is Being Taken Over by Islam!?
Host: Pastor Josh Howerton (A), with Carlos Arazo (B), Pastor Paul Cunningham (C), plus Guest Pastors Darren Tyler (D) and Nolan Jaden (E)
Release Date: November 10, 2025

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Overview

This episode dives into recent political and cultural shifts in the United States, focusing on the election of a Muslim communist as mayor in New York City and the normalization of radical rhetoric in politics. The hosts and guests discuss the implications of these shifts from a Christian worldview—covering the influence of Marxist ideology, the rise of Islamism, the gender divide in voting, the biblical view on immigration, and the calling for the church to respond with the gospel and truth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter & Podcast Updates (00:38–11:22)

• Lighthearted family stories and church news open the episode, creating rapport and energy.
• Discussion of Lakepointe’s “Christmas at the Movies” outreach and how Jesus used culturally relevant storytelling to teach spiritual truths (04:19–07:27).
• Importance of passing the spiritual baton to the next generation; reflection on recent student ministry weekend (09:11–11:13).
• Emphasis on community and discipleship, especially leveraging new cultural “Gen Z” language (09:41–11:22).

2. Theological Deep Dive: The Return of Christ and the Rapture (11:22–20:28)

• Pastor Josh’s Theory (11:54–18:56):
  • Explores Greek word harpazo (“caught up,” source of rapture doctrine) in NT and Paul’s possible personal rapture experience as a source for his teaching (14:00–17:37).
  • Quote:

    "I honestly wonder if God did to Paul when he gave him that vision, what will happen to the rest of us at the end of time?" — Josh Howerton (16:36)

• Discussion of rapture views: pre-tribulational dispensationalism vs. historic premillennialism, referencing NT Wright and historical theology (18:56–20:28).

3. Hebrews 12, the Current Work of Jesus, and Who Wrote Hebrews (20:49–36:28)

• What is Jesus Doing Right Now? (23:25–29:24):
  • Jesus is currently embodied, seated at God's right hand, and acts as our legal advocate (“defense attorney”—parakletos) in heaven, interceding for believers.
  • Notable explanation:

    "Jesus, every second of every day, is before the Father as a defense attorney for Christians." — Josh Howerton (24:12) "I do not ask for mercy for Paul Cunningham. I demand justice for my blood. You must forgive Paul Cunningham." — Josh Howerton (27:00)

• Debate on the authorship of Hebrews: Paul, Apollos, Barnabas, or others (30:12–36:28).
  • Both Josh and Paul favor Apollos as a likely author, citing rhetorical style and ancient context.

4. The Unexpected Youthfulness of Biblical and Revival Leaders (38:16–45:00)

• Detailed survey of major revival movements (First/Second Great Awakenings, Azusa, Jesus Movement) emphasizing that most were led by people in their teens or twenties.
  • Quote:

    "Virtually every major revival in American history... were led by, like, young adults." — Josh Howerton (38:18)

• In Scripture, most of the disciples were likely teens; significant leaders like Timothy and Mary also referenced as young (41:44–45:00).

5. Wisdom for the Young and the Elderly (45:01–59:07)

• For those under 30:
  • The greatest threat isn’t self-destruction but wasting your life in distraction (esp. digital).
  • Find a God-glorifying vision; be discipled by older believers.
  • Watch your life and doctrine closely (1 Tim. 4:16).
  • Quotes:

    "Attention is... the new battlefield of discipleship and calling." — Paul Cunningham (49:15)
    "Most Christians are not in danger of ruining their lives. They're in danger of wasting them." — Paul Cunningham (50:24)

• For those over 30:
  • Your greatest contribution may be who you disciple, not what you accomplish.
  • Pass the baton, invest in younger believers, and lead by example.
  • Quote:

    "The most significant thing you do with your life may not be something you accomplish. It may be someone that you raise or develop." — Josh Howerton (54:38)

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Main Feature: American Political Upheaval, Islamism & Marxism

1. Political Violence Justified by Marxist Ideology (62:36–75:15)

• Incident Overview:

  • Recent elections saw victory for:
    • A self-identified Muslim communist (“Momdani”) as NYC mayor.
    • A Virginia progressive (Jay Jones) who openly advocated violence against political opponents via text.
  • Concern over normalization of violent language/politics.

• Marxist Underpinnings (69:31–73:27):

  • Culture is shifting from persuasion (Christian worldview) to seeing opponents as evil oppressors (critical theory lens).
  • Quote:

    "Political violence is a feature, not a bug of secular progressivism... it's built on top of a critical theory lens rather than a Christian theology lens." — Josh Howerton (70:59)

• Campus Culture Stats (73:27–75:15):

  • Shockingly high proportions of US college students see words as violence, support for hate speech laws (and violence to prevent "hate speech").
  • 33% support physical violence to prevent “hate speech.” 66% define it as anything “hurtful.”

2. Gender Divide in American Voting (77:15–89:10)

• Overwhelming shift:
  • Young women (18–29) voted up to 84% for progressive/Islamic-leaning candidates.
  • Men under 30 overwhelmingly vote the other direction.
• Root Causes:

  • Absence of traditional family roles and the resulting “marriage” of women to the government for provision/protection (78:44–81:13).

  • Quote:

    "They now are... married to the state. So if the state becomes their protector and not their [husbands], then they would vote for that." — Darren Tyler (78:45)

  • The empathy divide in the sexes:

    “Women, we are empathetic. We care about people... what that can sometimes lead us to do is to sacrifice truth and convictions for the sake of [making] somebody feel comfortable.” — Jana Howerton via Josh (83:01)

  • Parties imitate “father” (Republican: protection, law) and “mother” (Democrat: care, empathy) values (83:31–87:10).

3. The Rise and Strategy of Islamism in the West (95:42–112:22)

• Triumphalism after the Election:
  • Times Square video features post-election Muslim rally chanting for all NYC to become Islamic (95:42–96:27).
• Islamic Strategy—Three Phases (104:21–108:54):
  • Phase 1: Oppressed minority, play victim for tolerance.
  • Phase 2: Large minority, shift to indignant/triumphalist tone.
  • Phase 3: Majority—enforce dominance, Sharia, and militant tactics.
  • Repeated historical pattern of oppressive dominance—cited by former Muslims.
• Contrast with Christianity (111:32–112:22):
  • When Christians use violence, it's rebellion against Jesus; when Muslims do, it's often direct obedience to their scriptures.
  • Quote:

    "Anybody that has done anything like that in the name of Christ cannot use the words of Jesus to justify their actions... Anyone who does that in Islam justifies [it] by obedience to Muhammad." — Darren Tyler (111:47)
    "There’s not a moral equivalence." — Josh Howerton (112:22)

4. Immigration, Assimilation, and Christian Political Theology (112:22–129:57)

• New immigrants overwhelmingly elect Islam-leaning candidates; American-born citizens far less so.
• Biblical pattern for immigrants:
  • Welcome and love the sojourner, provided they leave behind false gods, assimilate to the nation’s laws and customs—conditional inclusion (115:22–117:39).
  • Europe as a cautionary tale: Muslim baby names dominate in Western cities; cultural replacement and “outbreeding/outvoting” feared (120:38–122:48).
• Distinction—Christian Individual Ethics vs. State Responsibilities:
  • Individuals: called to radical hospitality and care.
  • Governments: called to defend, define borders, and steward resources for their nation’s people.
  • Quote:

    "The role of governmental leaders... is to prioritize the nation over which God has put them in authority." — Josh Howerton (126:10)

• Reality that unlimited love (without wisdom/order) leads to failure and society collapse.

5. The Idol of Government vs. Worship of God (130:56–135:19)

• Alarm over Mamdani’s inaugural statement:

  "We will prove that there is no problem too large for government to solve and no concern too small for it to care about." (130:56)

• Parallels drawn to Christian teaching about God’s sovereignty—a theologically disastrous confusion of government as God (132:34).
  • Quote:

    "Socialism and communism are inherently atheistic... when you subtract God, there is no authority higher than government. So the government becomes god." — Josh Howerton (133:31)

• Caution from experience: government charity rarely brings hope or lasting transformation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Attention is... the new battlefield of discipleship and of calling.” — Paul Cunningham (49:15)
• “Public passion without private holiness will always end in burnout or demise.” — Paul Cunningham (50:17)
• “Empathy towards the guilty is cruelty to the innocent.” — (Discussion on “toxic empathy”) (84:00)
• “May the best God win.” — Darren Tyler (135:19)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 00:38–11:22 | Opening, church news, Gen Z discipleship | | 11:54–18:56 | Harpazo, Rapture, Paul's “caught up” theory | | 20:49–36:28 | Hebrews 12, Jesus’ current work, who wrote Hebrews debate | | 38:16–45:00 | Youthful revival leaders in history/Bible | | 45:01–59:07 | Advice for under/over 30s on life & leadership | | 62:36–75:15 | Political violence, Marxism in campus culture | | 77:15–89:10 | Gender divide in voting, root causes | | 95:42–112:22 | Islamism’s Western strategy; Christian-Muslim comparison | | 112:22–129:57 | Biblical immigration policy, Europe as warning | | 130:56–135:19 | Government as God vs. God as God—theology & idolatry |

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Final Thoughts

The episode delivers a bracing, convictional Christian analysis of political, cultural, and ideological developments, urging listeners to clarity in doctrine, seriousness in discipleship, prayerful engagement in public life, and hope in the gospel of Christ—all while warning of the dangers of cultural drift, idolizing the state, and ceding ground to secular (or Islamic) ideologies.

Episode Tone:
Bold, unapologetic, deeply biblical, at moments satirical—often urgent and concerned, occasionally lighthearted.

For Listeners:
Whether you’re capturing up on US politics, thinking through Christian social responsibility, or longing for spiritual revival, this episode offers challenge, wisdom, and gospel hope amidst the chaos.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode.

[B]

Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. My name is Carlos Arazo, and I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton and Pastor Paul Cunningham, also known as the Epistle Missile.

[A]

Carlos, did you go trick or treating?

[B]

I did not.

[A]

You didn't Tang.

[B]

But did you know what? Did you.

[A]

All right, so this is a true story, by the way. If anybody saw one of my kids on Halloween night and they looked homeless, there's a reason. So we. So Eliana went and hung out with some friends and she had a great time. So it was just us and the littles. This is not what this podcast is about. Welcome to the Howardson family. And we just. We were sitting all around and we were. I just had a dad moment. I was like, let's go drive around and just see other people's costumes, because we were just hanging out at home. So they get in the car. Hudson's just PJs. He has one shoe on. Felicity looks. She's a hot mess. Well, we're getting out and we see these two people in rocking chairs giving out candy. And Hudson was like, can we go get candy? And I was like, well, why not? You know, why not? So then they start running around. Well, Hudson is in his PJs with one shoe. So then they start, you know, they don't have costumes on. They just start rolling around. Hudson ends up running around like this super wealthy neighborhood. We drove to somebody else neighborhood. He's running around like this very wealthy neighborhood with one shoe. Jan is embarrassed as a mom. She's like, my kids running around. It's like, homeless kid.

[C]

I was going to say if he asked what he is. I'm a socialist. You know.

[A]

What are you? I'm a Bernie Sanders.

[D]

I'm a mom.

[A]

Donnie Voter.

[C]

I'm the wealthy neighborhood to take candy from you.

[A]

It's amazing.

[B]

So then, literally, great way to start a podcast.

[A]

It is a Great way. So then literally, we. Jana was literally hiding in the truck because we're rolling the windows down and we hear one of the ladies go, where's your shoes, son? And he's like. He says, I don't have it. Is your foot cold? Jana's mortified. Welcome to Live Free.

[C]

Welcome to Live Free. Speaking of cheek or tea and candy. Hey, Carlos. I will say just. I gotta confess a little bitterness on the podcast right now. I passed by the studio multiple times last week and I noticed something that was still on the table and that was the candy corn that. You didn't take the candy corn with you.

[A]

I thought I put it in my bag.

[B]

What are you talking about?

[C]

Sitting here pretending like you liked it melts in your mouth.

[B]

It wasn't here when I got here.

[C]

So I got left behind. Okay, I'm sorry.

[B]

That was my bad.

[C]

N. I'm playing with you.

[B]

But speaking of taking candy from rich.

[A]

People, we're going to be addressing a good transition.

[B]

We're going to be addressing Mom Donnie today. Hebrews chapter 12.

[A]

The Mamdani election win.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

The same night Jay Jones, the. The progressive guy who. It's not funny. I don't know. I don't know why I'm laughing. The progressive guy who literally texted people about slaughtering conservative political opponents and then doubled down, said he wasn't joking in the text message and talked about shooting their children. Guy gets elected in Virginia. It was just an interesting week. You got the whole. A lot of other stuff. We'll get to weird stuff later, but we're going to be talking all of it.

[B]

75% of people that are viewing Lift Free episodes are not yet subscribed on YouTube. So thank you for subscribing. That actually really helps us. Man. A couple things as well. Coming up in two weeks, the week of November 29th, we actually have a special Christmas at the movies weekend. And if you don't know what that.

[A]

Is, can I say while we're doing.

[B]

That, please, Pastor Josh, why are we doing this?

[A]

First of all, I always say this because we get online you doing at the movie. So here's why we're doing this is. First of all, we are not preaching movies. We're using movies to illustrate biblical truths. I always want to say that because you get people who say that. Number two, Jesus primary form of teaching was what Carlos and Paul. It was parables. Parable comes from a Greek word. Two Greek words put together. Para means alongside and ballet means to cast or to throw. So what Jesus would do is he would take a spiritual truth and throw it alongside. Here's another thing people don't know. A lot of people don't know this. We should do a pot on this sometime. Multiple of Jesus. I'm going to say it and then we'll see if you knew it already. Multiple of Jesus parables were already culturally popular stories, like moral stories that their culture already had. And then Jesus would change the ending. There's like, I think there's two of them. I did a whole series on the parables years ago and I discovered this. There's like two of Jesus parables that were already popular stories. And he changed the ending. So anyway, he was taking stories that were. Did you. Have you heard that before?

[C]

I'm trying to remember which they were you. I can't.

[A]

At the top of my head, I couldn't remember one of them. I think Prodigal Son was one of them. And it ended very.

[C]

Because that's. That's the one I was thinking, because I'll go and say is like, from what I understand, if you remember differently, correct me. Is that really, like, when this younger son comes home, it isn't the dad's right to.

[A]

To kill him? Yeah.

[C]

To basically to have the town stone him.

[A]

Yes. It was a capital offense.

[C]

Okay. Okay. So you and I had heard the same thing. I thought that was one, but I was. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So anyway, there'd be president.

[B]

I mean, if you think about like the Genesis story, there's some parallels with some. And so that where like the. The Israel story would be. There's some similarities, but different twists, different message.

[A]

Totally. So anyway, would you think about. Jesus was taking stories that were popular in his day, using those stories and then to illustrate spiritual truth. That's literally what we're doing at the movies. And then we've already told it before on the pod, so I won't do it again. But if you don't know the story, you just need to go Google, like, Google something like JR Tolkien shares the Gospel with CS Lewis. And literally how CS Lewis got converted from atheism to Christianity is. JR Tolkien used stories, fictional stories, that he was fascinated by. Fairy stories, we call them fairy tales. That's what he was teaching at Oxford at the time. And he showed him how every story, to use the words of the Jesus Storybook Bible, whispers his name.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So that's what we're doing. So the week. It's the weekend after Thanksgiving. So Thanksgiving is on Thursday, the Saturday right after Thanksgiving. That's when Christmas at the movie Starts at Lake Point. The reason we started doing that is everybody kept telling me, pastor Josh, all my family's in town. I have all these lost family members. Could you guys please do something that would be really great for them to hear the gospel? So that's the reason we do it. Bring all your family. It's gonna be awesome.

[B]

That's amazing. And by the way.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[B]

Last thing on this same conversation.

[A]

Hang on. Can I get this camera right here? Is that camera? All right, I'm gonna give a hint.

[C]

I was wondering.

[A]

I'm gonna give a hint. And it's only our YouTubers are going to be able to know what it is. The hint for the. The Christmas at the movies movie is.

[B]

Die Hard. I knew it all along.

[A]

It's gonna be good. It's gonna be good.

[B]

I knew it, man. Bruce Willis energy right here.

[A]

He's. YouTubers will know you're lying.

[B]

Oh, man. And speaking of at the movies, in fact, we have a giveaway. And the way we will give a live free hat is. How about in the comment section? Let us know, I guess. Yeah, let us know what movie you think it would be.

[A]

Yeah. What's your movie? Guess. It's a Christmas movie. That's right.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

What's your movie? Guess if you can't see it, it's one of these fantastic things. I'm wearing one right now. And the live free merch shop is coming up online soon because we tried to get it up last week. I'm really sorry if you tried to go and.

[B]

Well, here's the thing. So the demand is higher than expected.

[A]

Very high.

[B]

Because you guys are sharing the episode liking.

[A]

Actually Live Free Nation.

[B]

Live Free Nation. Like, the viewership has just, like, skyrocketed. And so we're working on, you know, on that live free merch shop coming soon. So stay tuned. Last week's winner, by the way, was for the. For the. The winner of the hat was Priscilla Gypson Huntley. 18:42 Shout out.

[A]

Whoa.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Well done. We got a hat for you. So go ahead and comment right now. What movie you think it will be watching slash talking about for Christmas at the movies? And you might be a winner, man. We just had student ministry or student weekend.

[A]

Dude, it was awesome.

[B]

It was fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was so much fun.

[A]

It was awesome, man. So we do this, obviously. I preach. We didn't have a student preach, but it was like students. It was awesome, man. It was students hosting the service. We had students leading worship. We had a student that Did LP Noose, which was amazing.

[D]

And.

[A]

And one of the things we preached that we were preaching on is the responsibility of every Christian to own the passing of the baton of the gospel to the next generation.

[B]

That's amazing. Hey, in honor of having students help us this weekend, this last weekend, I asked Chad GPT to help me promote the discipleship guide using Gen C Zlang.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Are you ready?

[D]

Oh.

[B]

Are you ready?

[A]

So.

[B]

So this is ch. By the way, I'm not a. I'm. I'm a young millennial, so this is. We'll see how it goes. I don't know what half of the words means, but here it goes. All right. Chat. Real talk. Following Jesus isn't a solo quest. It's a group project. No, cap. Discipleship hits different when you're locked in with your people, not out here trying to go lone wolf moat. Bet. So if this episode had you low key, like, dang, that's buzzing. For real. Don't ghost it. Run it back with your crew. Don't be sus about community. We don't want that Ohio energy.

[A]

What does that mean, bro?

[B]

We dropped all the highlights. Hot takes, bonus tea and fire convo prompts. So you can keep vibing on what God's doing. It's giving spiritual growth arc. For real. For real. It's all in the show notes. AKA your discipleship guide, your growth cheat code. Just text the word notes to 20411 or slide over to Lakepoint Church. Show notes, stay rooted, stay real. Let Jesus cook. You already know this episode ate and left no crumbs.

[A]

I have no words.

[C]

I'll give that a six or a seven.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I was wondering.

[C]

Sorry, I had to slide that in.

[B]

Hey, for my Gen Z brothers and sisters. Let me know how I did Trinity. Trinity's our Gen Z representative here. Trinity. Yes. No, it's okay. You're not going to hurt my feelings.

[A]

She loved it.

[B]

Okay, she says yes.

[A]

Well, I was waiting for skibidi toilet.

[B]

Riz, bro, I can't keep a straight face saying that word.

[A]

I just.

[B]

I can't.

[A]

All right, you want to talk about, so here's what we're going to talk about. First of all, I have a return of Christ thing that didn't make it into the last pod that I want to get in. I have a theory. I'm going to do a theory, and then I want to know which theory is. And then we're going to talk about Hebrews 12, what Jesus is doing right now. I actually want to hit that because Hebrews 12 alludes to it. What is Jesus? Pop quiz for the listeners. What is Jesus doing right now? We'll get to that in a second. And then the role. Well, actually, we'll get there. We'll get there. There a second. Yeah.

[B]

Pastor Josh, I have a question for you.

[A]

I am. I will allow it.

[B]

Thank you. When did it make it to the sermon?

[A]

Okay, well, wait, wait. Here's. So here's what didn't make it into last week's pod.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[A]

All right. So here's what didn't make it last week's pod. I realized when we were finished, like, dang, I really wanted to get that in. All right, I got a theory. Okay, so in my personal Bible reading last week, I had to read. Not had to. That sounds terrible. I read one of the days was first one, second Thessalonians. Those are the New Testament epistles that are not Revelation, that talk the most about the return of Christ. Obviously, the message last week was on that. Okay, so here's a theory. So I'm reading first, second Thessalonians, and in one Thessalonians three in particular. And then he does it in second Thessalonians, I think end of one or beginning of two. There's just lots of very specific, here's what's going to happen when Jesus returns stuff. So then what I'm doing, I'm gonna give away a little hint. And by the way, I strongly recommend this if you double check the results. I'm a pastor. I have a theology degree. I sit there when I'm doing my Bible reading with Grok Expert, and I will literally ask it questions while I'm reading. Because a lot of times, you know, let's say I'm reading a narrative passage and it's like, they went from here to here. And I'll just get curious. I'm like, well, how many miles is it from da da da da? And it's pretty accurate, so it's helpful. So anyway, Paul. So Paul's saying in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, and it's very specific, and it's not stuff that was alluded to or prophesied about in the Old Testament. So then I'm like, I wonder where he got this. Okay, so first Thessalonians is where people get the rapture concept. Side note, we don't have to go into this discussion. A belief in a rapture, as modern dispensational theologians view it, is a historically minority position. So that's a whole thing Now, I will say I think I'm a post trib rapture guy, but that's a whole different thing. I think that's where I am.

[B]

I have a lot of questions.

[A]

All right, That's. I'm. So we don't have time to get into this now. I think where I land. I think where I land is what's called historic premillennialism. George Ladd already, but not yet. Yeah, eschatology. All right, so anyway, that's not what I'm talking about. All right, so Paul is in First Thessalonians talking about what is modern is now called the Rapture. That comes from 1st Thessalonians 4:17, where it says, we who are alive will be. And then it uses the word caught up. Some translations will actually use snatched away to meet the Lord. And then it says, and so we will be with the Lord forever. All right? So then I'm like, I wonder where Paul got this. Here, I got a theory. I've never heard this before, and I have a rule that if you've never heard it before, it's probably wrong. So then I'm with Grok, and I ask, and I double check this New Testament, search for the Greek word that gets translated. Rapture. It's the Greek word harpazo, okay? It means to seize, forcibly, snatch, awake, or catch up. Then I asked Grok, give me every New Testament verse that uses that word, all right? One of the only other usages is in 2nd Corinthians 12, when Paul is talking about quote, unquote, I know a man. You know this passage, all right? He goes, It's. He goes, I know a man who one time was caught up to the third heaven. Now, if you're new to the Bible, you may hear that and go, I wonder what he's talking about. What Paul's doing is he has essentially. He has too much humility to go, it was me. He's going, it was me. And Paul says in 2 Corinthians that he had literally a not. I don't actually think it's describing even a vision. I think he's saying in some real sense, I was. He says, I was caught up to the third heaven. And he says, I saw things which no man may utter. Okay? This is what he says. And essentially, by the way, if you're new to the Bible, the third heaven. So in New Testament parlance or parlance. Yeah, that's a good way to say it. The sky, like the sky that's blue, is the first heaven space they had Some concept of wherever the stars are. That's the second heaven. The third heaven was like heaven heaven, like where Jesus is right now, okay? So he goes, hey, I was caught with the third heaven. I saw things which no man may utter. Very interesting. One of the only other usages of the Greek word harpazo that gets translated, rapture, is in 2nd Corinthians 12, when Paul goes, I was harpazoed to the third heaven, bro. Here's my theory, dude. And this is a little tinfoil hat, dude. I honestly wonder if God did to Paul when he gave him that vision, what will happen to the rest of us at the end of time? And that. That's the reason it's one of the only other usages of the Greek word harpazo, snatched up. And that's why Paul's like, let me tell you exactly what's gonna happen to you someday. Because, and remember he said, this is something which no man may utter. What happened to me? It's a little like, I wonder. This isn't. I wonder. It's not a. We know for sure. But I do. I wonder if the Lord was like, I'm going to do for you what I'm going to do for everybody someday. And then Paul in first Thessalonians is going, I'm going to tell you exactly what's going to happen to you.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Thoughts? What do you think? What do you think?

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

You're not going to hurt my feelings if you disagree with me.

[C]

No, I think it. It has some merit. I mean, again, like you said, it's theory. This is the stuff that we won't know until. Until we go to heaven. But I think what gives some credence to it is that actually, again, like you said earlier, dispensational thought differs in this, but it's relatively new. Historically, the idea of the rapture was not that we're taken up to heaven and we're there for a long time and leave everybody on Earth. It was the idea that we meet the Lord in the air. So we are caught up. We meet the Lord in the air. But the idea of then we will meet the Lord, like that, that word that's used here is a. Is a word that was often used when they would go out of the city to meet an incoming delegation or the king and then return back to the city with the king. So what I'm saying is it actually does give a little bit of credence to the idea of Paul if you're. According to your theory would have gone up in some kind of way but then came back back.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

And so that does give it some credence there, because that would be my view of this passage is not that we are raptured and literally just disappear and then we come back years later, but that, yes, we're going to be ratured up to God in the air and then come back down as he descends. And so, yeah, I actually think that has some credence to it. What do you think?

[B]

Yeah, I don't see why it wouldn't like those two are the same words and it's the only place in the Bible that they're used. And so that is interesting. I do, you know, obviously for another pod, we'll probably go in depth on the rapture for sure. But that's amazing.

[A]

I will say if you're somebody who. So Paul Cunningham was just talking about differing views of the rapture. Hey, is this where Christians will someday be taken away and remain out of the picture on earth for at least a while? Or is this a meet the Lord in the air and come back?

[B]

Which by the way, Josh, would you say the majority view in the evangelical American space? Would it be. Yes. On rapture theology?

[A]

I think the majority view in, in modern American evangelicalism in the US in the, in the United States.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Is, is probably rapture straight to heaven, left behind. And then I've honestly left behind, which is left behind is a pre trib rapture.

[C]

Yeah, it's dispensationalism.

[A]

It's dispensational. So preacher of rapture. I think that's the, the, the majority position. Modern American evangelicalism, from what I understand, not the majority position in church history. I will say if you want some really good reading and I'm gonna give a caveat, NT Wright has taken a couple directions recently that I think are like not good. So I'll just say that. But there's one book that I'd be like, dude, fantastic. Surprised by Hope is fantastic. So if you want a good read on some of the stuff we're talking about. Cause he talks about the rapture thing in that book.

[C]

It's Phenomen.

[A]

And I, I would again, he's taken a couple directions recently that I've been disappointed in. That book is fantastic.

[C]

It's a good example. When you stay in your lane.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. When you get, when you get out.

[C]

Of your lane of what your specialty is, you can do some harm.

[A]

By the way, there's probably A lot of people who listen to these podcasts, like Howard needs to stay. So I received. Received. It's hilarious.

[B]

Hey, man. We have Pastors Darren and Tyler and Nolan Jaden joining us in a little bit, so I want to make sure we keep going here.

[A]

Yeah, let's do it.

[B]

You got anything else on from your sermon?

[A]

So I'll just say a couple things. So what we did this week, the anchor text, one of them was Hebrews 12. And let me just read these two verses, okay. And it says, therefore, we're in the series called Run to win. And we finished it. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us. Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated. This is interesting. Right here. And is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. There's only just a couple things I'd say here. Actually, there's a couple things I'll say. And then Paul, I'm going to ask you what your theory is on who wrote the book of Hebrews.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Come on.

[C]

Would love to talk about.

[A]

Yeah. So we're going to solve this today. For 2000 years, Christians have wondered who wrote Hebrews. Paul Cunningham is going to solve it.

[C]

No pressure chat.

[A]

Gbz. The epistle missile's got to solve it on this epistle.

[B]

There's only one epistle missile.

[A]

That's it, man. Just a couple things. First of all, this is a little weird, but this is not kind of thing you put in a sermon that says laying aside every weight because it's referring to 1st century. The Isthmian Games, which we have referenced before on this podcast. Happened in Corinth. A little weird, but true. They ran naked. The all of the original. All of the original Greco Roman Olympics athletes.

[B]

They're being true to the verse because this is.

[A]

Honestly, that's my point. Paul's literally alluding to the. And that's why they did it. They. I'm trying to literally strip off any ounce that would make me run. Now I got questions that I'm not gonna ask. That would make me run in their minds faster. We're not going there. But that was there. And so he was like, dude, I'm gonna strip off every. So they did it. The other thing that I'm gonna point out is I think a lot of Christians have They've never thought about, I wonder what Jesus is doing. Stop it, Carlos, man, stop it, man.

[C]

Go ahead, I'm with you, Carlos.

[B]

Carlos, man, I thought it was pretty.

[A]

I mean, that's the whole Jana's joke. I don't know if your wives do this is like there's a million things that I say that she's like, you never left the eighth grade. I'm like, you're right. No, I think inside of virtually every man, there's an inner 8th grader that never got crucified.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

I see that.

[A]

The other thing is it says right here, a lot of Christians, I don't think they know what Jesus is doing right now. So. And this passage alludes to it and I'm gonna show this real quick. So it says, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Alright, so this is a fun little thing that's actually really awesome. So what is Jesus doing right now? First of all, fun fact, Jesus is actually in a human body right now. Jesus is embodied right now. He's not spiritual like you could physically touch Jesus. He is in a physical body right now. We know that from the New Testament. Glorified body number two, it says that he seated right hand of the Father. Now what we know he's doing, here's what he's doing. First John 2 tells us what Hebrews 12 is alluding to Jesus is doing. So here's what it says. First John 2, chapter 1. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. This is one of my favorite passages in the entire Bible. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate. It says, with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous, he is the. And then it says, propitiation for our sins. Now here's why they sent this passage so stinking awesome. When First John 2 uses the word advocate, you can't see it in the English language. In the Greek language, it was a very explicitly judicial term. It was a courtroom term. So just like we have litigators and lawyers and we have defense attorneys and then we have prosecuting attorneys. The. The English word advocate is translated from the Greek word that means defense attorney. This is saying. It's saying that heaven is like a courtroom, which we mentioned in week one of this series that, hey, Jesus will return to quote unquote, judge the living and the dead. We will stand before the Father for judgment. It's a courtroom. This says that Jesus every second of every day is before the Father as a defense attorney for Christians. And then it says, he's a propitiation for our sins. Now, here's what's really awesome, right? So this is so cool. So just like I want you to imagine that every single time you sin, the Bible says that Satan, the book of Revelation, calls him the quote, unquote, accuser of the brethren. When it uses the word accuser, it uses the Greek word for oppression, prosecuting attorney. So Revelation says, heaven's like a courtroom. Satan is a prosecuting attorney trying to condemn you. But then it says, so imagine every time you sin, Satan stands up before the Father and essentially says, yahweh or God Almighty, Paul Cunningham just sinned. And your very own written and eternal word, and your word says that heaven and earth cannot pass away without your words passing away, says that every sin deserves death. And he says, paul Cunningham just sinned and sin deserves death. And so I demand that you, in your justice, condemn Paul Cunningham. First John, chapter two says, what Jesus is doing is at that moment, imagine in a courtroom, Jesus stands up right next to you and he says, objection, your Honor. Now, when a defense attorney is in a courtroom, a defense attorney never pleads for mercy. It would be really stupid for Paul to have committed a crime and then a defense attorney to go before the judge and say, would you please just forgive him? Would you please just let it. Let it slide this one time? No good judge would ever do that. What a defense attorney does is they present a case for acquittal. When First John 2:2 says, he is the propitiation for our sins. The word propitiation is a big fancy word that means a payment that satisfies. It's saying that Jesus, when he died on the cross, his blood was a payment that satisfies the wrath of God for our sin. So imagine every time Paul Cunningham sins, Satan stands up and demands his condemnation. Jesus stands up and says, objection, you, Honor. Yes, your word says, yes, Paul Cunningham sinned, and yes, every sin deserves death. He says, but I already went to the cross for that sin, and I shed my blood for that sin. And your Honor, it would be unjust. You would be an unjust judge if you punished the same sin twice. And so, your Honor, I do not ask for mercy for Paul Cunningham. I demand justice for my blood. You must forgive Paul Cunningham. And every single time, the Father says, acquitted, acquitted. So what is Jesus doing right now? Hebrews 12:2 says, he's seated at the right hand of the Father. First John 2:1 and 2 say, he's there as Your defense attorney. And so if you have ever wondered, I wonder how God feels about me when I sin every second of every day, God is forgiving all those sins because Jesus is interceding on your behalf before the Father and your record is clean.

[C]

Amen.

[A]

That's what he's doing right now on the cross.

[C]

God did to Jesus what he should have done to me because of what I've done to him. That's the gospel. God did to Jesus what he should have done to me for what I did to him. But because of that, I can be reconciled with God the Father I also love. In Hebrews, it talks about how Jesus is also interceding for me. And so that means that if you're a Christian, you have had your name spoken to the Father by the Son. You have had your name spoken by Jesus to the Son. So he's advocating for you and he is interceding for you. You've had your name spoken before the Father by the Son. Just blows my mind.

[B]

Amen. That's good news.

[A]

Now, all right, Paul, who wrote Hebrews? Well, this is actually really interesting. So here's why I'm saying this for New Bible, for New Bible readers. It's. It's the only book in the New Testament. We don't have a clear answer to the question who wrote it? Which is interesting when you come to how the canon was constructed. We did a whole other pod on that, but that's a different thing. But there are prominent theories, Paul Cunningham.

[B]

There are.

[C]

Although this is actually the big reason why the book of Hebrews was so late in being added to the canon. It wasn't because of the theology they're teaching that was solid. It's because the people put together the canon or recognize the canon. It's probably a better way to say it, really. It had to be tied to an apostle or someone closely affiliated with impossible because they didn't know who it was called an amanuensis. Yes.

[A]

For a fun little.

[C]

We couldn't because, like, well, hey, we can't put it in because we're not sure who wrote it. So a few prominent theories arose of who wrote it. One prominent one would be the apostle Paul. Some of the theological could have been Paul. It could have been Paul. Some of the theological elements that Paul speaks a lot are here. Also, a lot of phrases that are in the book of Luke and the book of Acts are in here as well. And the reason why that would maybe point to is that Luke was an associate of Paul.

[A]

Another problem, before you go to It. Before you go on, one of the reasons. So the reason. So I'll do a reason people don't think it was Paul, and then I'll do a reason people do think it was Paul. The reason people don't think it's Paul is when you do, like, a grammatical. Linguistic analysis of the. Of the words that are used. There's a huge number of, like, words. You know, it's like, man, everybody has a standard vocabulary. Like Josh Howard. I've got a set of words like, you know, when somebody hears, let's kick this pig.

[B]

I got you, bro.

[D]

Look at that.

[A]

They're like, that's Howard and that's not Carlos. Well, let us kick this pig. So like, they know, like, bro, that's Howardin. When somebody would read grace to you, Grace and peace, in the name of the Father and the Son, you know, people are like, ah, that's Paul, all right. So there's a bunch of words in the book of Hebrews that are not used in any of the other Pauline epistles. Reason people don't think it was Paul. Now, for our little Bible sleuths, one of the reasons people are like, yeah, but it still could be is Paul was, as we all know, he was a fair. He's a Pharisee of Pharisees. What some people think is in the same way that if I'm writing a little note to my daughter Eliana, I'm going to use a certain set of words and language. But then if I was in. If I was at seminary in higher education and I was writing a technical theological paper, I would use very different language. Some people think what the Book of Hebrews is, is it's Paul's technical theological argument to Jews, and in particular Pharisees, that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. And so, like, that's why the language is different.

[C]

But that. That leads to the second prominent person because the rhetoric is so high, like this person who wrote this, they knew their stuff in terms of rhetoric and language. Well, there's a guy that we see in the Book of Acts in the new Testamen was gifted at rhetoric and who could speak powerfully. And by the way, that matters because a lot of people, many people believe that Hebrews was originally a sermon that was then put into an epistle form, and that leads many people to believe it was Apollos.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Apollos was a gifted preacher, really gifted at rhetoric. And so the thought is, well, hey, if he's really good at rhetoric, gets at preaching, and he was familiar with Paul. He was an associate of Paul. That therefore a lot of Paul's theology and even some of Paul's phrases could end up in here. But stated in a more eloquent form.

[B]

Likely a much, much better communicator.

[A]

Paul. Yes. In terms of preaching, actually we know that. Yeah.

[C]

Paul said I'm that impressive.

[A]

Yeah. Literally. Paul's opponents in Second Corinthians were like, his teaching amounts to nothing.

[C]

Like he writes really well. But when we heard him speak, it was all right.

[A]

And they said the exact opposite about Apollos. It uses the New Testament. Uses the word eloquent. Yeah. And calls him mighty in the scriptures. In Acts 18 he could preach the house down. Yeah. Like he was your passion conference speaker.

[C]

He was. He was. Whereas Paul was more just a really gifted author. Gifted writer, by the way.

[A]

I'll say this. Apollos is my theory. But keep going. You keep going. I want to know what your theory is.

[C]

A few other common ones you got. People like Barnabas is often thrown around.

[A]

That's an interesting one.

[C]

Even Clement. It is an interesting one. Clement and some other people like that.

[A]

Here's why some people think Barnabas again, Hebrews super theologically technical for a first century Jew. And Barnabas I think in Acts 4 is acknowledged he was a Levite, which was, you know, this kind of like super, super Jewish, you know. So that's why some people stuff.

[C]

You have a few theories like that. I personally am an Apollo sky myself. I'm an Apollo Sky.

[A]

You skipped one of the. The more fringe theories.

[C]

Which. Which one?

[A]

I missed some people. Who's the. Who's the woman that.

[C]

Priscilla and Aquila.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Priscilla is it. Throw those in there because it was so. Priscilla is so fringe.

[A]

Yes, Priscilla.

[C]

I've heard people say Priscilla and Aquila kind of co. Wrote it together. I'd throw that one.

[A]

So when I was in college, a little more progressive teacher that was heavy on the Priscilla theory. Does Paul Cunningham. Do you know why that's impossible? I found out in studying for this sermon there's a reason that's impossible.

[C]

I am so nervous to answer. So I'm.

[A]

You don't have to answer. You don't have to answer. I found out a reason that that's impossible. So it's actually right before the passage we just read. And let me open back up. So it's in Hebrews 11. And this is the kind of thing you can't see in English. I kind of hate talking about that all the time because it makes people think I can't Understand my Bible, but you're fine. So in Hebrews 11:32, it's one of the only times he uses. The author uses a first person pronoun. So Hebrews 11:32, the author of Hebrews says, and what more shall I say? In ancient Koine Greek, a first person pronounced is gendered.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And when he says I in 1132, in Greek, it's a masculine gendered pronoun. So we know it's got to be a dude.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it can't be Priscilla.

[C]

And to go off, what you just said, just to encourage, encourage our listeners out there, is, is that, listen, you can get so much out of the Bible without knowing that.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

It's helpful to know. It's almost like when you go to the beach, you go to the ocean. There's a few things that it takes some special training and equipment to do, like going deep sea diving. But you can swim, you can surf, you can snorkel, all kinds of good stuff. So don't let that ever stop you from going deeper into God's word whatsoever. But I'm an Apollos guy. For me, it really is just because I am a person who says, I think this was originally a sermon that was then put into epistle form. I think that the rhetoric is so high. Papalos is just like, if you just put a gun to my head, maybe choose, that's the one I would choose. But I could be wrong. Either way, when people are listening to this, this in no way impacts the truthfulness of Hebrews, the power of Hebrews, or his trustworthiness whatsoever. So what are you? What are you?

[A]

I think I'm an Apollos guy. I'm an Apollos guy. You got. Have you ever thought about this?

[B]

Yeah. I felt like, you know, to think that it reads like a sermon. I think it makes it so much cooler and like the fact that it could have been Apollos, I think it's amazing.

[C]

Like when you read Hebrews 11 in the first part of 12, it's just like this was. It feels like someone could have stood on a stage and just started riffing and going. And so, yeah, it just. It has that flavor and feel to it.

[A]

Well, you can. Even. So here's another one. Apollos. Apollos was at Ephesus, right? Hang on. I don't want to get this wrong. Hang on, let me. Hang on, let me get this. Let me grok this. What?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he was. Yeah, because you said it in our teaching for the seven churches.

[A]

Yeah, I'm like 99%. That's what I was remembering.

[B]

All right, So I paid attention to the sermon. It's okay.

[A]

Me too. Yeah, yeah. So Acts 18, 24 through 28. Apollos is at Ephesus. So, like, honestly, dude, you can imagine. Imagine Hebrews 12 when he's talking about, man, we got this great cloud of witnesses. There's a whole stadium of Christians, you know, from the ages looking at you like, you can imagine him being in Ephesus where there's a stinking, humongous stadium, seats 20,000. I actually think it seats like 25 or 30,000 because I remember it's bigger than the AAC. So you can imagine. To your point, you can imagine Apollo standing there in Ephesus reference looking at this stadium. Be like, there's a great cloud of witnesses while he's preaching. And I think it fits. I think it's Apollos.

[B]

That's amazing, man. Hey, I want to make this segment of the pod very practical after that sermon real quick, because we're running out of time over here, man. Unless we want to do the. The younger people in Scripture. Do you want to feel good about that? Are we. I was going to go straight to the 35. Here's some words of wisdom.

[A]

Here's all I'll say here.

[B]

We can save it for the next one too, man.

[A]

Here's all I'll say. I just, you know, we hit this a little bit in the message. I'm going to do this real quick. And then I want you to say the ages of some of the people in scriptures. That would surprise people. I do not think people real. How young a lot of the leaders in the Bible are. We do not realize. So we'll get at that in a second. I hit this a little bit in the sermon. Virtually every major revival in American history, and actually more than just American history, were led by, like, young adults. All right. So, like, all right. The first Great Awakening, by the way, this is really fun. I. There is no way that the United States could have been birthed as it was if the Great Awakening had not happened first. I'll just say that. So the most. Here's this fun fact. The most famous George W. When our nation was founded was not George Washington. Actually, it wasn't even close. It was George Whitfield.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, like, not even close.

[C]

Open air preached to thousands of people.

[A]

From what I understand. Hundreds of thousands.

[C]

Yeah, hundreds of thousands.

[B]

What year was this?

[A]

This would have been First Great Awakening, early 1700s. Yeah.

[C]

Ben Franklin literally, like, knew of him and knew him. And he actually walked and measured the distance of how far he could hear him. And he said it was almost a mile, I think is what he said. It's crazy. Yeah, George Woodfield.

[A]

Yeah, George Whitfield. There's Ton. I read a biography on him years ago. It was absolutely amazing. So, all right, so first great awakening. George Whitfield was 25 years old when he starts preaching. Jonathan Edwards was 30. All right, second great awakening led by Charles Finney. Charles Finney was 29 years old. The haystack revivals that started in Kentucky. Shout out Kentucky home state. Samuel Mills was the dude that started, kind of led that part of the. He was 23 years old. The businessman's revival in New York City was a little different. Jeremiah Lanphear was 47. And that revival was primarily among middle aged, like guys like me. Middle aged business dudes. Azusa Street Revival. Birth of the charismatic Pentecostal movement. Virtually all young people, like very, very young. Then you get to the Jesus movement, Jesus revolution. The whole thing is just wall to wall hippies and college students. Lonnie Frisby, 20 years old. Greg Laurie, who's a pastor, still spiritual awakening, 17 years old. When that's happening. And then, and we alluded to this a little bit, you're. I think you're seeing what might be, is. I'm not saying it is what might be the first tremors of some kind of spiritual awakening right now. And some people would say it was the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk was 31 years old. So I just want to point this out. Like, hey, man, young. Like young.

[C]

Can I throw one more into that? It's one of my favorites. He's not recognized enough. Evan Roberts. So he's in mid 20s, the Welsh revival. Not, not the mid 20s. In terms of years. It was actually 1904, 1995. He was in his mid 20s. He was a coal miner, blue collar co miner turned preacher. He prayed, God give me 100,000 souls. Welsh Revival breaks out in over a couple years. 100,000 people plus come to Faith. Just craziness.

[A]

Well, and I got it. This made the sermon, so I won't tell the story again, but the story of Donald the praying teenager in the revival in the Hebrides is one of my favorite stories. So if you need to go listen to sermon. I'm not trying to tease, but you do like Donald the praying teenager is the reason there was a revival in the Hebrides Islands. So I'll just. There you go.

[B]

Well, and in scripture, as Well, I mean you see the same thing all over, right? I mean the disciples of Jesus, you got that stuff.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So the disciples of Jesus, most scholars would say all but one or two were in their teens. And so few, few ways that we know that the clearest thing from scripture is Matthew 17. There's what was called the temple tax. And so person comes to Peter says why doesn't your master pay the tax or is he going to pay the tax? And then Peter goes and asks him and Jesus does this cool thing, oh, just go catch a fish and inside there's going to be a coin. And he says, pay the tax for you and for me. The temple tax had to be paid by people who were 20 and up. And so the idea is, wait a second, if you read, if you read the greater context, all the other disciples are there. So why would only the two of them have to pay? It's because they been the only ones that are twentying up. Some people do wonder about Matthew because he was a tax collector. Maybe he was also there above 20 as well. But then the rest of them really most scholars would have believed would because of that would have been beneath the age of 20 also just because in common cultural practice at that time, Jewish young men studied the Torah formally until they were 15. And at that time the best of the best would get attached to a rabbi between the ages usually of 15 and 20 before they started profession. So culturally as well, the idea of rabbis bringing on disciples really between 15 and 20 was the nor again most scholars just believe that the disciples were late teenager people.

[A]

Which is why by the way Jesus frequently, I think why Jesus frequently in the gospels will refer to them or use the analogy of he'll just call them little children. Yeah, like seriously, I think we read our bibles and we have these middle aged dudes in our head. No, no, like bro, these are like 16 and 17 year olds youth group.

[C]

You think of John who lived for a long time time he, he was alive into the late first century. Well that makes sense if he was really young.

[B]

When John was the youngest disciple, he.

[C]

Was the youngest one. He was the youngest one. So then a few of why he.

[A]

Beat Peter in a foot race.

[C]

That's actually one theory of why people.

[A]

That people are serious is that so.

[C]

That Peter was a little older for.

[A]

Bible scholar, for our little Bible nerds. If you go read, it's hilarious. Hilarious. It's like exactly what two dudes would do that were friends at the end of the gospel. John. Yeah, two kids at the End of the Gospel of John, Jesus gets resurrected. John's writing the Gospel of John and he's like me. And Peter started running and then he goes and I won.

[C]

I beat him there.

[A]

And seriously, some people think it's because Peter may have been pushing 30 and John may have been 18.

[B]

And then they both have an 8 year old inside.

[D]

Not sure yet.

[B]

There you go, full circle.

[C]

Couple other people real fast. And then we'll get to just some words for younger people and then also for people that are above a certain age as well. A few other people in the New Testament Timothy, likely under the age of 30. The word used for don't let people look down you for your young. Neotes is a word commonly used for people under 30. Same word is used for Titus. So these were people that Paul was pouring himself into. So they were more like in their twenties. Of course you have Mary, who is used greatly by God and then even John, Mark. John Mark was a young man in the book of Mark was at first an associate of Paul, not the most faithful of God. But again, that makes sense when you realize that he was probably a teen or early twenties something, but eventually matured and wrote the Gospel of Mark. So common thing throughout scripture that God uses the young for great purposes.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Let's do if you're under 35 quick words of wisdom. If you're under 30, if you're over 35 quick words of wisdom, practical. And then we're going to transition to the next segment.

[A]

Donnie and all this stuff.

[B]

Donnie, Pastor Darren Tyler and Nolan Jaden about to join us.

[A]

Man, let me just say a couple things here. I think Satan's primary strategy with people and when I say young, let's do this, let's just make put the line of demarcation under 30 over 30. So you're not young anymore. Carlos, I hate to break it to you, we're all middle aged.

[B]

Dude, what we got here, trust me, I feel more and more.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

I know I'm behind you guys. But you know.

[A]

I think his primary strategy is to delay and distract you if. And he's like, man, if I can delay you and distract you, I don't even got to destroy you. So, dude, there's this fire J.C. ryle quote. J.C. ryle, Presbyterian. I think he's Presbyterian.

[C]

I can't remember.

[A]

J.C. ryle. He said, he said, he goes, satan, when you're young, it's too soon to serve God. Satan when you're old, it's too late. Wow. And I think that's I think that's what God does. So what I would say is like, man, get a God glorifying vision for your life that is massive and attack it with a ferocity previously unknown to mankind. The greatest thing my dad did for me, shout out, dad. My dad got me around incredible pastors. He was taking me to conferences, to promise keepers. I'm 16. My dad's pointing at Tony Evans, who back then was probably in his 30s. And my dad, we're walking out of the stadium and my dad's going, my dad's going, Josh, you could do that some day. And he's planning like a, a huge God glorifying vision for my life when I'm 16 years old. And it worked like it, it just captured me. And I was like, man, maybe I, like he, he spoke it into maybe I could. And so, you know, then, you know, late, late high school, it was just, I just wanted. I was captured by that vision. You know, I. My youth pastor, Jeff Carlile, I'm. He's discipling me. Me, I'm reading Charles Spurgeon sermons at night just because I'm like, man, maybe someday God could use me. You know, I'm memorizing chapters of the Bible with my friends and doing all this stuff and it's like I had a God glorifying vision. And dude, I'll say this, here's another little fun Bible nugget. This, like when, if you just read it, like the first time I saw this in the scripture, blew my mind. So this, this is for everybody, but especially for like if you're younger. So there's this prophecy in Amos 5. I do not think people understand where it says, thus says the Lord to the house of Israel, do not seek Bethel. Do not enter Gilgal, do not go over to Beersheba, seek the Lord and live. And you read it, you're like, oh, I wonder what Bethel, Gilgal and Beersheba are. Okay, well, Bethel was where Jacob met and wrestled with God. Kind of a big deal. Deal. Gilgal was the exact place where Israel emerges from 40 years in the wilderness and takes possession of the promised land. Beersheba was where God delivered Abraham by giving him this little treaty with Abimelech. And what he's saying to Israel in this little thing is like, don't seek Bethel, Gilgal, Beersheba, seek the Lord lid. What he's saying is Israel had gotten so focused on what God had done in the past that they stopped expecting God to use them to change the future. And dude, I'LL just, just watch out. Churches need to watch out because what churches can do is like talk about, man, it was amazing when Billy Graham was doing this thing and the Jesus revolution, Protestant Reformation, look at what God did in China and that kind of thing. And I think a little bit of what God's saying there. He's going, will you guys quit? Yeah, like, please stop talking about these moves of God in the past. And he's going, man, seek me right now and, and live. Stop talking about old stories. Go create some. And, And I think if, dude, if you're a, if you're a younger person, awesome to read about these, these older stories of what God has done. But man, have some faith for what God could do.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

A few things. One piece of advice actually. Just from Paul to Timothy to his younger apprentice, a young man, he said, watch your life in doctrine closely. And so when, when he said life, I think that's both your life with God, that a lot of younger people and older people too, but definitely younger people want to do great things for God, but they don't necessarily have a great walk with God. So make sure your walk with God is amazing, but then also your life just in terms of your holiness, you're never going to be perfect, but there is this idea of wanting to live above reproach and we can have public passion, but public passion without private holiness will always end in burnout or demise. Always. So just watch your life. But then also your doctrine is basically what you believe because it'd be a real big shame for you to be really, really, really passionate about a Jesus who doesn't really exist except as a figment of your own imagination. So watch your doctrine, your life, I mean, really just attacking. What you said is like attention is, I think the new battlefield of discipleship and of calling, especially for younger generations. Whatever captures your attention will shape your affection and. And then with that. Yeah, dude.

[A]

Hey, real quick.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Be careful what heroes and voices you choose a big time. That's what that is right there.

[C]

Big time. Whatever.

[A]

Real careful, bro.

[C]

Yes. Whatever captures your attention will shape your affections. Now I think with that too is at the end of the day, we were sharing this somebody before we hopped on is I think most Christians, some, yes. But most Christians are not in danger of ruining their lives. They're in danger of wasting them. And I think if I was the enemy, I would get as many young people with as much potential in the world as possible and I would just get them distracted if I can't get them to ruin their lives, man. Next best step is to get them to waste them. And then finally, I would say the greatest thing you have to offer God is your fully devoted and committed life. Amen. Leaving nothing on the table. A few quotes and then I'll give it over to Carlos. I just love these quotes. The evangelist Henry Varley to DL Moody once said, the world has yet to see what God can do with and for and through and in a man who is fully and wholly consecrated to him.

[A]

Amen.

[C]

And then I love this John Wesley quote. He's talking to preachers, but I think applies to all people. Give me 100 preachers who fear nothing but sin and desire nothing but God and I care not a straw. Whether they be clergy or laymen, old or young, they alone will shake the gates of hell and set up the kingdom of heaven upon earth.

[A]

Come on, come on.

[B]

I like it. Two things echoing what you guys said. Trina, can you pull up that the, the first graphic? This is from Dino Ambrosi, he's a speaker on like tech and culture. So that's a, this is an 18 year old's remaining time in months. So basically the dots in the screen represent an adult life in month assuming you live up to 90. So if you're 18, the amount of dots you see there, that's basically like the amount of months you have left in life. If you live up to 90, so about a third of your life go to the next one, about a third of your life you will spend it sleeping. So there goes like a third of your life basically if you're 18 right now. And so then you have to account for total time you spend in school, work, driving, cooking, eating, chores, personal hygiene and etc like things you just have to do to like live.

[A]

So oh, I see it. So, so okay, but I see what you're talking about.

[B]

So then there's like all the necessities of life and then, then you see where it says free time. There's a study according to this speaker that the 93%. Hold on this guy. Estimates that the average 18 year old right now is on pace to spend 93% of the remaining time looking at a screen. And so that free time is that time where that's a space where you pursue what you're passionate about, where you execute your vocation, where you build something meaningful with your life, where you spend time with family, church, community, relationships that matter. This, that space of free time is basically like where you create or that will determine the kind of person you Become. And the vast majority of this generation will spend it with TikTok, social media, YouTube, binge watching all the Netflix shows. And so to your point, Paul, like, distraction is probably one of the biggest threats for our new generation. And so if you are a Christian, you must do everything you can to kill your distractions. That just simply cannot be you. Ephesians chapter 5 says, Be careful how you live. Not as unwise, but as wise. Making the most of every opportunity because the days are evil. That's literally the enemy trying to distract you from what God has for you. And then the last thing I'll say, man, I think you're crazy. Especially for like if you're younger, under 30, I think you're absolutely crazy if you don't identify people that are 5, 10, 15 years older than you, you and just try to be like as much as close as you can to them. I think for me, I had, by the grace of God, for whatever reason, I always had friends that were literally just five, six, ten years older than me. And because I lost my friend because I was a Christian and I lost all my non Christian friends at some point because we just didn't do the same things. And oftentimes we don't realize that discipleship is caught, not taught, right? And so just being around people that are much wiser, much godlier than you, like at some point that is going to be for forming you more than anything else. And so, man, just find those people, find the people that are older, godlier and don't think that you're, you know, this is the most obvious thing, but it has to be said for a younger generation, man, you're not better, you're not smarter than them, you're not smart. Like, so if you have godly parents, listen to your parents. If you have godly leaders, you know, your group leader, your pastors, listen to them and man, you will be blessed.

[A]

Want to talk to give words to the old folks like me, Pastor Josh. That's great, that's great, man. I will say so if somebody's young, I'll say this and let me put a bow on this thing and we'll move on talking mom, Donnie and J. Jones and everything. Especially for young men, if somebody was like, hey dude, just give it to me straight, straight, what do I need to be doing? Here's what I would say. And I would say, pray, ask the leadership of the Holy Spirit, follow your conscience if it deviates from any of this. But essentially some of these are not deviatable. I would essentially go hey, man, if you want to live in a life of extraordinary consequence, give your life to Jesus, Read your Bible every day, pray every day, and act like it. Go to church, find a cute girl that loves Jesus, and get married young. Young. I'll just. Let me just side note real quick, bro. The more I'm hanging out with, like, young adults in our church, and they're like 26, 27, 28, and they're like, I'm not ready to get married yet. I'm like, what are. Like, are you crazy? Are you crazy? Like, like, you're like. You're like 10 years into historical marriageable age in. In human history. So. So I just, I'm just gonna say, like, in general, people right now are waiting way too late to get married. Like, biologically, like, all the things. Find a cute girl that loves Jesus, get married young, have one more kid than you think you can afford. I'll just like, let me just have one more kid than you think you could afford, and then work hard to build something great instead of complain. You do that stuff and, like, you're. You're gonna live a life of extraordinary consequence. The only thing I would say to, like, the olds. People like me, apparently the Apostle Paul said in second Timothy that was written to a young dude. Paul was an older guy. At this point, he's writing to a younger dude, and he says the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful people, people who will be able to teach others also. So basically what he's going is, hey, man, the most significant thing you do with your life, it may not be something you accomplish. It may be someone that you raise or develop. And once we cross a Rubicon in our lives, our job as disciples is to turn to somebody younger and go, I'm. I'm gonna invest myself in that young man or that young woman and turn them into a web, a force of nature, so that when, long after I'm hugging Jesus, they're firing flaming arrows into the darkness. And so, you know, one, if you're a dad or a mom with young kids, you already know who you need to be investing in. So, you know, one of the, you know, I don't. I try to tell more stories where I'm the failure than I'm the hero. This is one where I got it right. After getting it wrong two years ago, I was, you know, church starts growing, you get more speaking engagement requests, come do this conference. And I did it one year, and I was like, ah, the kids Felt it. And I sat down with them, Jan. I had a conversation. I sat down with them, and I just. I did. I just was honest with him. And I was like. And I'll just pick a number. I was like, hey, guys, when daddy goes and speaks somewhere, you know, right now, let's say it's $5,000. Yeah. Hey, if I go speak somewhere, you know, I can make $5,000 in a. In a. In a night. And. And I just told him. I was like, you know what I realized, guys, is that I would rather have one night with you guys than $5,000. Amen. And now you. I mean, you guys know from hanging out, I don't. I just don't do it. You know, I'm speaking one place next year. I say no to everything, because the most significant thing you do with your life may not be something you accomplish. It may be someone you raise or develop. And so I would just say that's the reason why I shoot you really straight. Me and Jan are. When we decided to lead a Rudy group, I was like, give me young adults. I want a young adult rooted group. Is that so? Get in there and invest in it. By the end, you're gonna have a blast. That's what I'd say. What do y' all got?

[C]

I. I just got a quote off of that. And again, this is. This is a guy who's talking about ministry, but I think this is applicable to all people. Charles Spurgeon. So, you know, greatest preacher of all time. So, you know, preachers. He was.

[A]

He.

[C]

He was a big deal. But here's actually what he said at one point. He said, train up a band of young men who shall preach the gospel when our tongues are silent in the grave.

[A]

So, I mean.

[C]

Yeah, right. Of course that was person who said that. What I'm saying is, like, I mean, he was the greatest preacher ever, and yet he realized, hey, my time on earth is limited. And so one of the biggest things he had to do is to try to raise up a next generation. And that's true. Not just with preachers and ministry. That's just true with everybody, with all believers. Like you said, one of the best things we could ever do is just to raise up people in our wake. And so I think with that, if you're investing in the next generation, whether it's parents or really anybody is. I'm just really big on, man. We need to make sure that we're not simply giving them rules to live by, but a calling worth living for. By all means. We want our kids to obey God 100%. But. But too many times it becomes so focused on simply raising good boys and girls instead of great men and women of God. And you can have people that are squeaky clean adults, but they don't ever necessarily do anything with their lives because they're distracted or for whatever reason. And so just I would say, actually most of the time what I've seen is when young people, again, whether you're talking about kids, teens, 20s, whatever, when they get a calling of God on their life that captures them, the other falls into place. Because they realize God has put this calling in my life and I have this vision for my life. Oh, I don't need to wreck it.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

By then disobeying God and living unfaithfully. Whereas if you simply decide to get them to.

[A]

For parents, that's huge. Yeah, I just want to like highlight that for parents. When your kid, like, man. Because that's what happened to me. It's like if you can get your kid, their young teenage whatever it is, if they can get captured by a vision for their life, their behavior will follow what it requires to accomplish the vision.

[C]

But it doesn't necessarily fall the other way around. You might get kids who are well behaved, but they don't necessarily have any kind of a sense of calling your vision for their life. Whereas if you do the other, it usually follows around like a caboose. So that'd be the only other thing I'd say, well, that's really good.

[B]

We run out of time. Let's talk. We have pastors.

[A]

Bring on some pastors. Talk. Mom. Donnie, what's going on in our nation? We just elected a Muslim communist, this jihad friendly in New York City, and a guy that talked about slaughtering his political opponents. What is going on?

[B]

Coming up real soon. Stay tuned. Well, hey, before we jump back in, I want to take a quick moment to tell you about something close to our heart here at Lake Point. It is something we call our annual missions offering. Every fall, we set aside a season of radical generosity where 100% of what's given goes straight to missions. And this goes to help plant churches in some of America's hardest to reach cities, strengthening local churches around the world, meeting needs in our own communities, and even sending students to camp to encounter Jesus. And so here's what you need to know. Your giving fuels real stories of life change. And so to be a part of, part of spreading God's love farther and faster than ever. Text the word give to 2-04-11. Or visit Lakepoint Church. Giveamo. Well, hey, lift. Free family together. Let's make this a season where our generosity moves the mission of Christ forward.

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the back half of the Live free producer with my two new friends. Actually, not new friends.

[D]

Old friends.

[A]

I was gonna say. I got, man. I got my. I got my elderly friend Darren Tyler. He's got his cheaters right in front of him. That's right. If we get rowdy, he'll pick up his cane.

[E]

Call down the she bears.

[A]

Yes. So I got Darren Tyler and then my buddy Nolan. Jaden Nolan planted a church in the west valley of fish, Phoenix, like three days ago. And they're like 6,000 people. And I think they baptized like fourth. I think they baptized like 40% of Phoenix yesterday. And.

[E]

We'Re trying, man. It's.

[A]

There's not a lot of water out.

[E]

Here, but we're baptizing them.

[A]

That's right, buddy. That's right. And then me and Darren. Darren, you can say hi, you're here in a second. Me and so both these guys. Darren. Both these guys are pastoring churches that are like, absolutely exploding. Darren. Me and Darren used to pastor five minutes from each other. Yeah, right. Yep. In. In the Spring Hill, Franklin, Nashville area. And both these guys. Churches are just absolutely exploding. They're good men. So we're going to talk. We're going to talk the fact that America just elected a jihad friendly Muslim communist to be the mayor of the largest city in the United States. States. And then we also, on the same night, we successfully elected a progressive guy in Virginia that advocate. I should probably say this while smiling, but that advocated for the political assassination of Republicans and their kids because, quote, people don't change until they feel pain. So, guys, this will be fun. You want to say hi?

[D]

Dude, I'm just happy to be here, man. To bump into each other at Starbucks writing sermons. You've come a long way since then, Josh. You actually have your own office now.

[A]

That's true. So legit. When we were planting the church in Nashville, the Starbucks on that. I don't remember the name of that road. That was like, you know, literally my office. Nolan, do you have an office yet? This is it, you know, this is it. Okay. Small space. Well, for real, for onlookers, you should really check out both these guys because both their churches are absolutely explod. But we were doing the church plant thing, and so I would walk in and order a black coffee and sit at Starbucks for eight hours because I ordered the Black coffee because it was $1.86, and I would run into Darren.

[E]

$1.86 is church planter coffee.

[D]

The sad thing was, is that your sermons were decidedly better than mine. So I don't know if I needed.

[A]

To change my coffee order, but whatever, Darren.

[D]

No, it's a true story. Like, you think I'm blowing sunlight up your dress, but it. Like, that church went from like, what, a hundred people to like, thousands, you know? And you were what, 30 years old? Something like that. It wasn't. I was really. It was fun to watch from up the road. I was really, really fun to watch.

[A]

That was special. Run, man. Dude, I got there. We're gonna get right into this, but I got there when I was. I became a senior pastor when I was 25, which is a little surreal, bro. He's 25. Nolan, how old are you?

[E]

You were actually 25. Yeah, I was 36. I'm 36.

[A]

Dang. Okay. All right.

[E]

But church planting ages you, so I.

[A]

Feel like it does something. Well. If. If I could have experienced what's happening in Nolan's church when I first started there at the bridge, I would have ridden off into the sunset and felt great. Great. Okay. All right. You guys ready? Let's talk. So let me just. Let's. Let's do it, man. So, like, we're all in a group text together, so this would be fun. So let me just. Here we go again. America just elected on the same night this week, a jihad friendly Muslim communist dude was literally taking selfies with an actual jihad jihadi Muslim guy that was part of a World Trade center bombing from threat. It was on the COVID of New York magazine. And then on the same night, elected a guy in Virginia. I'm gonna read the text, actually. Trinity, can you pull up those texts? The J. Jones texts on the same night in Virginia elects this guy right here. You got it. Oh, man. There ain't no way I can read that. Hang on, Trinity. That's. Okay. So let me read these. I'm gonna need. I'm gonna need Darren's cheaters to read that. So this is. So this is like actual text messages from this guy. He's texting three bullets, two people. Gilbert. And this is like the Republican political opponent that he was running against, Gilbert Hitler. Paul Pot Gilbert gets two bullets to the head. Spoiler, put Gilbert in the crew with the two worst people, you know? And he receives both bullets every time, bro. And then he goes on and talks about the guy's kids, talking about his shooting the Guy's kids. And then he finishes and essentially goes, I'm not joking, and says, yes, I've told you this before. Only when people feel pain, personally, do they move on policy. And this dude gets elected. So before we go anywhere else, what y' all think? Thoughts?

[E]

Yeah, we're a long way out from needing character to be a politician anymore. Not that you have perfect politicians, even in the White House, but at the end of the day, you look at something like this, this could get you canceled overnight. And now we just elected him.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And it speaks to the ideology, specifically in leftist circles, that anything is kind of justified as long as the mean get what they believe to be successful. So that, I mean, I've seen those statistics. You guys have seen them, too. Like, the percentage of young people, especially, that are okay with violence if it gets whatever policies they wanted put in place, which is brand new, as far as I can tell. Some of this Islamist stuff is not new. But this whole thing about being okay with violence, like they weren't trying to sweep it under the rug. They clearly couldn't. And then he still wins.

[A]

Yeah, it was like, go ahead. No one.

[E]

I was going to say it's the same thing. The day after Kirk died, you had people justifying his death on the basis of him talking about gun control and being opposed to gun control. You know, jokes like, hey, thoughts and prayers. You know, thoughts and prayers for Charlie Kirk after he died, died. And I think there's a move towards violence in the political left because at its core, it's Marxist.

[A]

Dude. So I totally agree with you. Can you connect those dots, Nolan? So, like, just for. By the way, for listeners, Nolan's interesting, because, Nolan, you grew up in Portland, right? Yeah. All right. Yeah, you go ahead. So what we're seeing in other places, you saw, like, 10 years ago go 100%.

[E]

So I grew up in Portland, Oregon, like, in my high school. And you gotta remember, I went to High School 2004-2008, before it was as amazing, before everything that was happening in Portland became a national reality and across the globe. I remember being a freshman and having a teacher actually address the class and say, you know, gender is actually a social construct. And so this is 2004. I had a friend a little older than me that actually encouraged me to. To explore my gender by wearing female clothes. Now, I didn't do it, okay? Because I'm.

[D]

You can tell I won't tell anybody.

[E]

Way too much testosterone. It's a safe place here on Live Free.

[D]

That's right. Didn't do it.

[E]

But now we're looking at that being a national reality. This progressive ideology, which I believe at its core is Marxist ideology. Now Karl Marx has been quoted again and again very famously saying that that revolutionary terror is the means by which you overthrow the status quo, the means by which you overst overthrow the bourgeois. So it, at its core it's a. It's a violent worldview.

[A]

So. So like, let me, I'll connect some dots on this and then I'd love to know what you guys think. So like the thing that I'll try to get out as frequently as I can is that like that political violence is a feature, not a bug of secular progressive. Because to Nolan's point, because it's built on top of a critical theory lens rather than a Christian theology lens. In a Christian theory lens. In a critical theory lens, it views the entire world through a Marxist ideology and it views the entire world through an oppressed and oppressor categories. Whereas Christianity views the world through the lens of. Of a sin righteousness set of categories. Well, you know what that does is in Christian theology, if I look at somebody and they think differently than me, well then I'm going to think that they're mistaken and I'm going to try to persuade them. That's like what Charlie Kirk did. In a critical theory lens, if you're viewing everything through an oppressed oppressor category, then that person that disagrees with you, they're not just mistaken, they're an evil oppressor. And when somebody is mistaken, it's like I can try to persuade you, but when somebody is an evil oppressor, they feel a moral obligation to stop you. And obviously that, yeah, it like lends itself to like actual political violence. Agree. Disagree. Additional comments there.

[D]

I mean I was listening to.

[E]

Oh, sorry, you go ahead, Darren. Before beauty here.

[D]

Yeah, a little janky connection on my side. So that's again, I'm an older guy with old Internet apparently, but.

[A]

Stop, man.

[D]

It is literally. I appreciate the way you phrase that, Josh. That it is a feature and not a bug in the system and.

[B]

We.

[D]

Can connect it to Islam in a minute. Because it's literally the same theory that convert or die, but from the leftist ideology. If you truly believe that he was Hitler or whatever, like, then of course you'd be the first guy with a gun in line. But they have framed the entire thing. Oppressed oppressor in a way which is obviously the complete opposite of Christianity.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Which is about my sin is so bad that I needed a Savior.

[A]

That's right. That's right.

[D]

The Marxist ideology is. My sin is their fault. And so if I take them out. All right.

[E]

Yeah, I was just listening to this dude, Corey Miller, who's the president of Ratio Christi. They do a lot of campus ministry. Are you guys familiar with him? Interesting guy. He was talking with Frank Turek, and what. He rattled off all of these really interesting stats from a Yale study done about five years ago. And he said 48% of students on campus support free speech codes. 81 say words are a form of violence. So today, students on college campuses, 81% of them say your words simply, if you disagree, that is a form of violence. 33% say physical violence is justified to prevent hate speech. He goes on to say, you know, then what is hate speech if you don't want to face those consequences? He says 66% of these same students define hate speech as, quote, anything that is found to be hurtful to any particular individual.

[A]

So you want to talk about 6% of students. This is.

[D]

That's a shock.

[E]

Is what's coming up on the campuses. And so when you. When you. When you consider this whole idea of, like, the means, you know, the ends justify the means. The means today are violence, because that is the only way to stop logic when your reasoning is illogical. And we looking at students today that are enacting. This is why, you know, that's to keep beating the Charlie Kirk drum over and over again. But this is why you have a young man shoot Charlie Kirk and his text messages that have been released say, you know, we couldn't tolerate his hate anymore. It was just, quote, too much hate. That is. That is, case in point, a flawless example of end. The. The means of violence, justifying the ends of. Of overthrow.

[A]

Jeez. Jeez. Okay, so let me. Can I come at it from a different angle? And then this one's a little incendiary. And then if you guys are like, that's too. That's too. Hot potato. I don't want to touch that. I'll take it for you. Okay, so, like, Trinity, can you toss up. So, dude, what's really interesting is, like, everybody's starting to notice there is a radically widening gender divide between how, like, how votes are falling. So, like, I'm gonna show you. Like, this is. I'm gonna show you three things. So, like, number one, go ahead and toss up the J. Jones. The Virginia one. Let me see that. Okay, I'm gonna need to adjust my strategy here because that screen is too small for me. All Right. So on this one you got Jay Jones. So the highest percent voting for J. Jones was. Women 18 to 29 voted for Jay Jones. J. Jones, by the way, was the progressive guy that joked about kill. Not actually not joked, that advocated for killing his political opponent and his kids. So 76% of women 18 to 29, Jay Jones. Abigail Spamberger. So this was the. This was a different. The other person was running also progressive. 81%. 80 women voted for her at an 81% clip. Now, Trinity, go to the. Go to the momdani one. You got the same thing here. So women 18 to 29 voted for mom Donnie at an 84% clip. 84 story, bro. That's it. 84% clip. And then this is why, like, it's awkward, especially when it's like three dudes talking. This is the one that's, like, really awkward. I'm gonna. So I'm toss up what the electoral map would look like. You're going to see two things. Don't toss it up yet. Trinity. You're going to see two things. You're going to see what the electoral map would look like if only men voted, and then you're going to see the electoral map, what it would look like if only women voted. And I want to talk about why you think this is. So toss that one up. Trinity. So what you got right there is obviously on the left, that's what the electoral map would look like if only women voted. And I can't say, Trinity, what. How many electoral votes is that on that side? 461. Okay, so it'd be 461 blue. 461 blue. So. And then on the right hand you got if only dudes voted. And what is it? No, how many is it for red on the right? 1. 350.

[E]

What?

[A]

350. 350 what? 350. Like right on the dot, Darren. All right, so I like, this is like every election that that gap seems to get wider and wider and wider. I got thoughts. Somebody. Somebody want to take this first?

[D]

I mean, I'll take the first shot at it. Nolan. I'm curious because you. You live obviously in an area that would much more resemble maybe a purple area than I do. But the biblical ideology, right, is that a husband and a wife, and I'm. My wife's protector, I'm. My wife's covering the family unit. And as the universities have begun to dismantle that and we've seen those statistics of how many females are just opting out of marriage altogether.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And I wonder if this is all anecdotal and theoretical for me, but I wonder if it's because they now are. I don't use the word married, but married to the state. So if the state becomes their protector and not their. Their husbands, then they would vote for that. And when you reverse it, with the men especially voting the other direction, we've. If you're under 30 right now, you don't even remember a time where you weren't being blamed for being the entire problem of society of a young white male. I'm at least old enough to remember before we were blamed for that. But. So you've got men who've been literally completely marginalized saying, okay, someone's finally speaking for me, voting for them, and then women saying, I don't want a man, I don't want a husband, and I'll let the state be my God, and not God be my God. That's my theory. Curious what you think, Nolan.

[E]

Yeah, I think you're exactly on the money, Darren. People are exchanging God for government. Government. Government makes a terrible God. What we're looking at is a culture that has so vilified and, you know, removed the role of men from society that women are looking to the government for protection, provision, these things that are natural and innate to women, a beautiful thing that God has placed in them. And so now they're looking to government. And I think my big concern is twofold. One, when you make government your savior, you become a slave to that government. Government. When you're talking about Mount Donnie, his entire thing is affordability. And so he's ran on a campaign of, I can provide for you now. Making the oldest trick in the book, making promises he will not be able to deliver on. But at the end of the day, that's. That's the longing. And it's. It's an imago day longing, right? Like it's something deep within, especially females longs for that protection. And so now the government's stepping in. It's. It's biblically speaking, being always a rejection of God that results in an embrace of government. First Samuel, 8, 4, 7. There's that classic between that. That. So you have the people of Israel looking to. Looking to the other nations, saying, they have a king. We want a king like them. The prophet Samuel rebukes them, and ultimately they say, now give us a king to judge us. And at the end of that passage, this beautiful line, it says that God tells Samuel, hey, man, look, don't take it personally. They have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over you. And it's this story of Israel all throughout the Bible. And so for, for me, here's where my heart goes. I want to see. And this is what we are seeing all the time at the Garden Church. I want to see young men rise up into their God given responsibility.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[E]

And so rather than simply pointing at the government as the problem, like my heart is, I want to raise up young men.

[A]

Men.

[E]

And so this is a huge theme for us. Like you were saying, we baptized 65 people Sunday, which is a huge, exciting gay God.

[A]

Let's go.

[E]

But the story all day for us was watching young men, majority young men, get up, get into those waters, declare allegiance to Jesus, be dipped in, and then turn around and baptize their wife, baptize their kids. And so this is what I get excited about, about that in a world that criticizes and prevents masculinity, Jesus came as a carpenter and overturned the darkness through 12 mostly blue collar young men.

[A]

That's right. It's the gospel, bro. That's fantastic. So I'll. I'll piggyback and take it a step further and then you guys can step in and tell me where I'm wrong. So, like, so this is really interesting, first of all. It is so first, let me just quick caveat. We do not believe. We believe that men and women are equally created in the image of God. We also believe that they're equally corrupted by sin. So we do not believe that men are more sinful than women, which is generally what, by the way. That's generally what progressivism kind of like eludes or asserts. And we also do not believe that women are more sinful than men. And sometimes like, people that are kind of lean conservative can kind of like, I don't know, almost. It can kind of give that vibe. So let me just say we are not saying that like we're three dudes. We believe the Bible equal, equal dignity and equal depravity. I will say this. This is really interesting. George Orwell. Do you guys. There's A George Orwell 1984 quote. Does anybody know where I'm going with this?

[E]

I would expect Darren to know because.

[A]

Of his wisdom, because he was alive in 1984. Nolan.

[D]

Yeah, I was there when it was written.

[A]

Great. Okay, so, bro, this is George. Now, first of all, I saw Nancy Pearcey, who, by the way, everyone should be reading. She's complete. She's a monster. In a good way. Nancy Pearcey tweeted this election data, and all she did was put this Orwell quote at the top from 1984. In 1984, he wrote, it was always the women and above all, the young ones who were the most bigoted adherents of the party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and the nosers out of unordered orthodoxy. And Nancy Pearcy, just like, she just dropped that bomb and walked away. She just put that at the top of the election data, and that's all she did. So, like, dude, she did. She post. That's right. Posting ghost. So, like, so here's. Let me. I got a theory on this. You guys can, you know, you got. You can take this any direction you want. So obviously, like, our theology tells us that men and women are equals, but they are not equivalents. So what that means is, hey, the Lord created them with unique design. They have. You get to Genesis 3, and they have unique curses of the fall. And then you get into the New Testament, and they're given unique commands like, hey, I need to address women about this, and then about this. So equals, but not equivalence. So, like, what? Like, here's where my theology is. Is that what that means is that God has created men for their primary orientation to be towards things like the marketplace. And in historically, when this arises, the need arises, like, marketplace and battle. Like, that's literally what dudes were created to do. Go kill something, drag it home, and take care of the family, that kind of thing. The primary but not exclusive. That's a whole different discussion. The primary but not the exclusive orientation where guys created women is towards the home. That's primary but not exclusive. Now, like, what we know what I'll say. What I. So I don't want to speak for you guys, is that the design is reverse engineered from the function function. So, like, what that means is that God has created men to prioritize things. Like, to be assertive, to care about truth. Like, hey, man, if I need to say a hard thing or do a hard thing, like, God created us to be able to do that, you know? And then women in the home, it's like, man, it's raising kids. You need high empathy. Okay? So, like, sometimes when people will watch the podcast, they'll be like, man, Josh, what does Jana think when you'll talk about gender roles and that kind of thing? And my response is always. Jana's like, 12% more based than me. If you could you stick Jan on the. You stick Jan on the podcast. And so, dude, I was cut loose, bro. So And I got permission to share this Jana, like, last year. And I'm driving somewhere with this Jana, like, last year, we were on a walk and. And the data overwhelmingly shows that Christian women, they struggle to, like, hold the line on their convictions on gender, marriage and sexuality at a considerably disproportionate rate to Christian men. And I was asking Jan about this, and Jana was like, this was Jana's thing. Jana's like, man, Josh, women struggle with that because women, we are empathetic. We care about people. It's like, we don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. And so what that can sometimes lead us to do is to sacrifice truth and convictions for the sake of Mount. I need somebody to feel comfortable and affirmed around me. Well, it's like, man, honestly, I think that's like, playing itself out a little bit in a little bit of the political divide where it's like, if you look at the values, think about the values of the parties. It's almost like the Republican Party conservatives is almost like, that's dad. So it's like, hey, that's the party that generally cares about things like, you know, protection, strong military, you know, be assertive, keep every everybody safe, rule of law. And then Democratic Party is kind of man, in some ways, it's kind of like mom, it's kind of like, hey, man, I want you to. Hey, care about your feelings, want you to be okay. Let's make sure you're provided for. Let's. Let's, you know, let's blow your running. No. That kind of thing. And so, like, dude, if you. If you take it all the way down into some of those. And by the way, when I'm done here, I'm going to ask, agree, disagree, additional comments. And you guys can take wherever you want, but when you start looking at, like, the voting divide, I think you're starting to see, like, hey, man, the ladies are going with the mom party, and the dudes in general are going with the dad party. And then it gets you down into, like, what Ali Bestucky calls, calls the toxic empathy thing. Yeah. Where it's like, hey, man, empathy towards the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. And we can tease all that out, but I think that's at least part of it. And then I'll do one more thing just to throw one more grenade and walk away and let you guys deal with wherever you want to take this is. Dude, Darren, I think you're on to maybe, like, more than you may realize. So, like, so you have. You have more single Women with no husbands and no children than any other time maybe in human history. I actually think that might be possible was like, you can't turn off the part of you this hardwired to like maternal instincts and to look towards a husband. And so like, and I'm not the first guy to point this out is like, man, in the absence of that, it's like, man, I'm gonna look for the government to be husband. You protect me, you provide for me. And then honestly, man, sometimes those maternal instincts, they'll get aimed at what feel like, quote unquote, oppressed or struggling classes of people. And they're like, ah, let's vote for what would care for. Kind of like you would aim at your kids that were struggling, struggling and, and so there you go. Now I'd love to know. Agree, disagree. Additional comments. You guys got thoughts?

[D]

I think that's an astute observation. As far as Democrat versus Republican, feminine and masculine. I'd actually never contemplated that. So I think you're onto something there as well. I guess the only thing I would add is that in, you know, the universities. Well, I say universities, the high school, you know, TikTok, young men have been the enemy for so long that when we talk about women that are not being married for, you know, at record, at alarming rates, they're not doing it because they can't get married, they do it because they don't want to be married. There's just, it's sort of like in the zeitgeist of the culture right now that young men, young white men specifically are the problem. So when you've got one party saying, yeah, you're right, we want to, we'll elect a woman no matter what, whether she's qualified or not. We're gonna, the woman's gonna be the one. So they're seeing that as they're gonna, they are, they agree with me that these men are the oppressors and they're gonna vote for that. And if you're, you know, like, I've got a 19 year old son that, you know, he grew up in a high school that was, you know, teaching that stuff. And for someone to finally tell him, hey, you're actually more not, you know, any worse than a female, like, you know, we're all broken and we're all sinful, that you're not like the problem like that. He needed to hear that from culture, from me. And so I think some of that's probably, it's probably like anything. There's probably like 14 different things all sort of coalescing.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Totally.

[D]

But those are pretty big. The gap is widening, as you pointed out. Like, it's not. This gap is here. And it seems like everybody. Every election is getting wider and wider. And maybe it's because the culture is getting further and further into that.

[A]

No one.

[E]

Yeah, I think you know all the qualifiers for me, too. Like, I'm married to an alpha female, right? Like in some ways, in our church plant, right? Like, she's the boss.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[E]

So there's no. I obviously partly teasing, but she has a higher IQ than me, she's strong. And I. I would say that my wife would 100% agree with, you know, yours in that God has designed men to lead and that she longs to see men rise up and do what God has called us to do. And it's not only that men have been victimized by being villainized in our culture. It's also they have not been challenged. And so it's.

[A]

The tale is old at times, theologically.

[E]

We're in the. We're in a Genesis 3 world right now, right? And Genesis 3, it's. Despite having a desire to see young men lead, I look around and I see a fallen Adam world where it's not. I'm trying not to place all of the blame on the culture or on women, because one of the things we're tapping into right now, when I reference Genesis 3, obviously there I'm talking about Satan goes to Eve on purpose. He is going to play into her empathy in a way that will fall humanity itself. And Adam is not a victim. He's standing there the entire time, not balling up, not stepping up. And what he should have done is throat punch the serpent. What I would say is that there is a humongous importance for men right now to take some of that ownership and to step into the space of leadership. And again, all the caveats involved. I believe in female leadership. I believe in strong ladies, you know, playing their role in society, playing their role in the home. But we need to see more men rise up and lead. And actually, the stories that we find at our church. I actually met with a guy yesterday, and get this. This actually kind of tells you who we're reaching. There were two. There were two dudes that kind of got into it in the parking lot at the Garden church, right? Like, just rough, amazing guys. There was a parking incident. And so I'm literally meeting with this guy because he. He's like some other dude tried to Fight me in the parking lot at the Garden.

[B]

And I was like, tight.

[C]

Let's.

[A]

Let's solve that.

[E]

You know, like, we're trying not to have that happen, but also glad he's here, I guess. And so we're sitting there at, like, a Starbucks, and he. I was like, man, what is your story? And he starts getting into. About a year ago, he moved here from California, longing to establish his home. Couldn't afford a home in California. That's like, I don't know. 80% of our church people have moved from. So choke out. And he. His dad had beat the snot out of his mom, and at the same time was a pastor preaching on Sundays. So he was like, as you can imagine, church was the last thing on my radar. I wanted nothing to do with it. My wife saw an ad on Instagram, came to your church plant, and kept inviting me. And I'm like, dude, I'd rather watch the game. I don't have anything to do with this. And he goes. But then I saw the change that was taking place in my kitchen, kids. And the dude starts bawling.

[A]

There you go.

[E]

He goes, man, like, my life has utterly changed. Checked out the garden, started plugging in, started reading the Bible. He's like, dude, we. We have turned to 180. We kicked booze, we kicked temptation. And I was like, how's your marriage now with all this? He goes, I fell back in love with my wife.

[A]

Amen. Can I tell you? Amen.

[E]

His wife is a happy woman because he stepped into leadership in his home.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[D]

There is a.

[E]

There is a long longing in. In the female heart to see men step up and lead.

[A]

Amen. Amen, dude. Yeah. All right, well, we're gonna be figuring out that, like, that. That little gender divide thing, that's gonna be a thing for a minute. So we're, you know, we're gonna keep our eyes on that. So let me. Let me go ahead and do this. The other thing that, like, has been interesting to watch in. In the response to the Mamdani election has been, like, the role of Islam there. So, like, bro, this is awesome. Honestly, it's a little. It's a little. Little insane. So, Trinity, can you toss up that video from Times Square? So I don't know if you guys saw this. This is last night, right after either last night or two nights ago, right after the elections. Can you toss it up? Trinity? I was texting one of our mutual pastor buddies that's in New York City. They are very much feeling this right here. Okay? Yeah. Okay. We're done hiding. We're done. We're done being tortured and hurt and judged. This is the culture of religion. All of humanity needs to be a part of Islam. And we will not stop until it enters every home. So I want you to repeat after me. I want to hear it in every single day district. It should tremble. Brooklyn should hear it. The Bronx should hear it. Queens should hear it. Say it as if the Ummah depends on this.

[D]

My brothers and sisters. There is no God worthy of worship.

[A]

Except Allah, the God of Jesus, the God of Moses, the God of Abraham, and the God of the last and final prophet, Muhammad. That, my friends, is where 9, 11 happened 24 years ago. When you see that, I'm interested, especially Darren, because Darren's spent time in, like, every country in the whole world. I'm curious, when you say that, what do you. You think.

[D]

It'S. I'm not even sure sobering is the right word, because we've seen this. The nations I work in, I can't say most of them. This is literally the undercurrent of much of the Middle East. And I don't remember who said it once, but, like, when your enemy tells you what they want to do, you should probably listen to them. And the thing about Islamists especially, you know, and I say radical Islam, I do want to. I guess I want to say, because we do a lot of work in that world, you know, not all Muslims are violent, right? So Muslims, not necessarily the problem, but Islam is the problem because it is not a religion of peace. It's a religion of conquering. And that's their edict, right? They have been told, you know, we can. So for us, we can hasten the return. Return of Christ by love, right? By gospel. In every nation, tribe and tongue, they can hasten the return. And this is specifically in Shia Islam, that guy's probably Sunnis. But in the Shia version, like, which would be Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, they believe they can hasten the return of the Mahdi with bloodshed and with violence.

[A]

Wait, and can you explain? So I'm gonna. I've been starting to read about this. Can you explain what the Mahdi is real quick, Darren?

[D]

I'm sorry, explain what?

[A]

Can you explain what the Mahdi is real quick?

[D]

Oh, golly.

[A]

Yeah, So I just started reading about this.

[D]

Yeah. So in Shia Islam, so they had a split, like a church split, right after, like, Muhammad dies and trying to figure who's taken over. And so one jet stream becomes Sunni Islam, which 90% of the world would be Sunni, and then the other direction was Shia. So Iran. And basically the Mahdi is their version of a messiah that's going to return. You might have heard the phrase the 12th Imam. Some of us remember that the president of Iran in the UN in, I think, 2017, opens his statement with, we want to hasten the return of the Mahdi. It's a theopolitical thing to them, not geopolitical. It is theopolitical for them. And so their idea, like, they're going to. To usher in this new age of a great world where Allah is in control, Muhammad will be there. Jesus is going to be like his personal assistant in their version of this. But they genuinely believe it to the point where, again, violence becomes. In fact, you can find many of these coming out of imams from Gaza that killing the infidel is the highest form of worship for them. And again, not every Muslim believes that. So if you've got a Muslim next door, you don't have to be scared of them. Because I would say one of the things we're doing as a church is saying that, look, the government should absolutely be protecting us. That is the government's job. I have no problem with them protecting us. But you cannot bomb an ideology out of somebody. You can, however, gospel it out. And so while the government's doing their job, the church has got. We've got to step up our game. And I say that saying that I spent all my time in these other nations and realizing, you know, the United States actually is a nation. You know, Jesus didn't say go into all the nations from Washington. He said it in Jerusalem. And so in our own nation as churches. This is a cancer. Like, I've seen it in Africa. It just. The Islamic tide rose, rolling from north into all the way down to Mozambique. It's a cancer. And whether it's Dearborn, Michigan, Plano, Texas, Minneapolis, Minnesota, and now New York, this is a real thing on our shores. And so as a church, we've got to be very purposeful in training, equipping, number one, our own people from falling into Islam that's coming. But also, how do we win and love our Muslim neighbors? Tell them the truth, but lead them to Jesus. Because that's the ultimate. I mean, there's. You guys have heard the stories. I've actually met people. They've had the dream of the man in white, you know, Jesus rescued.

[A]

We got those people in our church. Yes. Yeah.

[D]

I first encountered it 12 years ago. I'm like, whoa, tell me about this man. It was a guy in North Africa. African. And it's proliferated. So Jesus is coming for the Muslims in all the best ways, and we can be a part of that and at the same time, be very politically savvy to know that whether it's in elections, local, state, city, we can't look the other way. Even if you're not, quote, unquote, radical Islamist, you are. Now, we talk about this, right? Right. Like, if we, the Christians, don't step into political offices, then the godless will.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

Also includes Islamists.

[A]

Yeah, bro. Darren, were you there? Were we at the White House at the same time? We were, weren't we? We were. Okay. So, dude, I think you just alluded to this, but, like, one of the most striking things that visit was that guy, the counterterrorism guy that you remember. This guy? Guy, yeah. 100% Christian dude. Overseas counterterrorism for the United States. And he walks up, and he's a deeply Christian man and looks out at this room of pastors, and he essentially says, you guys are more effective at neutralizing terrorism in the world than anything that we can do. And he said exactly what Darren said. He's like, hey, man, we can't bomb this thing out of existence. But he said every time. He said every time this. An Islamic terrorist converts to Christianity, you just neutralized a threat. It was like, bro, yeah.

[D]

I don't know if you remember this, but I got kind of schooled there because I had one question, and it really was. It was, hey, if I get myself into a pickle, which I have many times, is there anything we. Anybody I could call? Is there, like, a hotline to get me out of here? And I wasn't quite as. As good. Glib about it, but. Yeah, but he looked. And, look, he schooled me with a. You know, we really don't have that. And then you started talking about the persecuted church inside of these countries and how they're dying for it. And basically, he's saying, you know, you suck it up, buttercup. This is part of the commission, right? So it kind of hurt my feelings because I was definitely looking for the hotline, but here's somebody in our White House in charge, specific, specifically, of counterterrorism, understanding that this is a theological issue, not a political one. That gave me great comfort.

[A]

Yeah. Nolan, thoughts?

[E]

Yeah, I think it's fascinating. So that guy, if I'm recognizing him, he's actually huge on YouTube, and he's got a really famous video out there. Yeah, He's a big YouTuber. I think it's him. But either way, there's this huge YouTube video that came out, I think, during COVID where, you know, he's a Muslim dude. He's an evangelist for Islam, and he's going up to people at grocery stores and begging for food. And the whole point is if somebody gives him food, even though he's a Muslim, is kind of the point. He'll pay for their entire grocery bill. And he's trying to make the point that Muslims are not treated with fairness, care, love, respect in America, and he does that in New York. And so what I find fascinating about that video is it's almost like the mask comes off there. He starts with, hey, we're victims. Hey, we're being gunned down. We're being mistreated, whatever it was he said. And then he moves to, no, this is the right religion. And he starts into the triumphalism. And really, that is often what I see, that it begins with an appeal for empathy, but it's a Trojan horse for power over and over, specifically with Islam.

[A]

So, all right, to this point. So Trinity, I'm gonna pull up that three phases of Muslim immigration thing. So there's a guy, he's a great follow on X. It's Dan something. I'll see if I can find it. He's a former Muslim guy converted to Christ, and now basically his whole feed is like, helping people understand Islam's strategy and kind of what it does. So, dude, he pulled this up. Go ahead and toss it up, Trinity. He pulled this up, and he was like, hey, man, Americans need to understand there are three phases. So here's his big ide. He was like, hey, man, 1400 years ago, there were literally no Muslim countries. So his point is like, hey, man, you guys think that it's just like, oh, man, there's, hey, we have, you know, a couple million, not a big deal, that kind of thing. He's like, hey, so like, we actually have history books that tell us exactly how this is going to happen. And his point is it happens in three phases. He goes, phase one, when Muslims are few in number, he's like, man, what they historically do is sort of play kind of the card of oppressed Islam. And it's to what you're pointing on. He's like, man, that's the play. The victim claim Islamophobia, more tolerant of others. Then he's like, hey, man. But then phase two is when there's a large minority, it's like, man, that's the indignant Islam phase. And then it becomes threatening. It's triumphalism start to kind of at least move towards things like Sharia law. And again, there's different parts of Islam and how they handle that differently, more intolerant. And then phase three is when they get to clear majority. He's like, read it. His point is, read a history book. These three phases happen every single time. And phase three is clear majority. This is dominant Islam. This one becomes militant, strict Sharia law, kill or subdue infidels, et cetera, et cetera. And his thing is, hey, for 1400 years, the pattern hasn't changed. Thoughts?

[E]

Irony of the fact that one of the primary.

[A]

Oh, sorry, go ahead, Darren. Darren, go ahead.

[D]

I'm sorry, Yeah, I was. I've never seen that. That clearly before, but I have actually seen that in practice in some of the nations that we're working in that are sort of flipping toward Islam. And it does start. It just fits the whole thing. In fact, most Muslims inside the Middle east, they still kind of view that, that we're the oppressed. And that's why Israel is the enemy. And Satan, the big Satan, which is us, is the enemy because we are the reason that they are not successful is what they would say, notwithstanding the billions and trillions of dollars we spend in gas and oil with them, you know, somehow we're still the fault of that. So the framing of them as a victim and hesitate to use the word them because surely someone's going to tweet. So go ahead and tweet Josh about this. He gets.

[A]

Absolutely.

[D]

But as a whole Islam, that is the tone, whether you're in uae, whether you're in Lebanon, like that we are oppressed by these people, these evil, wicked, little Satan and big Satan people. And so that becomes the play. And by the way, that's why they are very successful in oppressed areas like.

[E]

Africa.

[D]

They go after the oppressed first. They don't start like in the city center, they're starting in villages with them and then moving towards the cities. They don't start in the cities and move towards the villages when you see their evangelism with it. So that's what's happening in pockets in our country. And I know that, I don't know, 25 years ago, whatever it was, this, we couldn't say anything like this because this Islamophobia. But the facts are the facts, and the Quran is clear. My friend in North Africa who came To Christ about 25 years ago, he leads 250 underground house churches. He told me that the only way out of Islam is deeper into Islam. And what he meant was most Muslims are kind of like most Christians. They just sort of kind of know the basics. I don't know the real things. But he said, the deeper I got into Islam, I got to the bottom of it and I realized I'm either going to be a terrorist or this is the wrong religion.

[A]

Wow.

[D]

Came to Christ. We call him Cleo. We can't say his name. But that guy, to this day, literally could lose everything if he's found out. The house, churches, there have to meet like eight people at a time in an apartment.

[A]

To your point, Darren. So like, I just. That same guy that I follow on X, he again, like, essentially what you just said was his exact story was like, dude, he gets in, starts realizing like, man, what are the actual commands? And he tweeted this the other day, like just a list of commands. And that's all it was. I won't even read them all, but like, Quran 2:1 91, Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them. Quran 3. 28. Muslims must not take infidels as friends. Quran 3:85. Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable, obviously. Quran 5. 33. Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam. Quran 8. 12. Terrorize and behead those who believe in the scriptures other than the Quran. Quran 8. 60. Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels. Quran 8. 65. The unbelievers are stupid. Urge Muslims to fight them. Quran 9:5. When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them. Quran 9. 30. The Jews and the Christians are perverts. Destroy them. Quran 9:1 23. Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood. So to your point, it was like that's exactly what happened. The farther he got in, it was like, bro, this is. He just kind of came face to face with it. Nolan, any thoughts there?

[E]

Just real quick, just, it highlights the irony that one of the primary voting blocks of Mamdani was, was, you know, white educated women, dude. So yet Sharia law, not that he is a promote proponent of that lived out, oppresses women. So I, I do find also there's this interesting correlation or similarity between the strategy of the far left and the strategy of Islam. So I find that fascinating that it's. That it's often this Trojan horse of victimhood that results in power. Whether that's big government, you know, a reversal of morality, or Sharia law, the caliphate. And then lastly, I also Just find this fascinating, that when you. When you look at. Excuse me. When you look at. When you look at any of this stuff, you're. You find yourself going, what country are we in? It was just 2008. It was just 2008 that Obama got elected. Having to pretend to be a Christian and also at least. At least come across like he was against gay marriage. Today, the mayor of New York, the central nervous system of the American economy is openly Islamic, openly communist. So just kind of a fascinating world. We're in wild time to be alive.

[D]

I wanted to say one thing just to save you on some emails that you might get, which inevitably, when you start talking this way, someone's going to.

[B]

Go down the road of.

[D]

Well, Christians have done all the same things. You know, the Crusades, the Inquisitions.

[A]

That is. That's, like, actually not true. But. Go ahead, Darren.

[D]

It's not true. But one of the main reasons, what is important to note there is that anybody that has done anything like that in the name of Christ cannot use the word words of Jesus to justify their actions. They are in open rebellion to Christ and sin. And anybody who does not do that, who is a Muslim, cannot justify their actions because they are in rebellion against Allah and Muhammad, who does command them to. So that's a complete false equivalency just based on the text that they would revere as holy and the text that we revere as holy.

[A]

Dude, that's actually like. That's our. Tom Holland points that out. The guy that wrote Dominion, I think he's the guy that pointed that out first where I heard it, where he was like, hey, man, when a Christian. And he's not. He's not a Christian yet he pointed out that when. When a Christians have historically, quote, unquote, taken up the sword, they're doing it in rebellion against the words of Jesus. When Muslims historically have taken up the sword, they're doing it in obedience to the words of Allah and the Quran. Just radically. It's not. There's not a moral equivalence. Yeah. Okay, let's do one last thing. That is. Again, it is. It's a little awkward. And if you guys are like, I'm not touching that, then that's fine. You can just kick it back to me and we'll figure it out. So, honestly, it's. To Nolan's point. The other thing that I think people are trying to figure out is honestly, just immigration in general. Huge discussion right now. I don't think Christians have any idea how to think. Christians historically are very different than Muslims in that we have not historically done very well at articulating a clear political theology. That's not historically a strength of Christians, especially Protestant evangelicals. Trinity, do you have that? The grab the. The chart? Yeah, the how long have you been in New York City chart. So this is. And this is what a lot of people are like, dude, I don't know what to do with this. So this is who voted for Mamdani. And somebody tweeted, man, the people of New York City. This is how he tweeted. The people of New York City just elected a Muslim communist. And then the response was, well, actually, the people of New York City didn't. And they pointed to this data because people who have been in New York city less than five years voted for Mamdani at an 83% clip. People who were born in New York City voted for him at a 34% clip. Now, I don't have this one right in front of me. I should have had this one right in front of me. The other thing was, is they contracted. I said, dude, I know it's awkward, but it's like, again, it's like, hey, man, we're data people. Was that foreign born New Yorkers voted for him at like a 70% plus clip. And then people who were born in the United States, I think it was more like a 30 to 40% clip. So you guys got thoughts there? I mean, that's a thing I think Christians are going to have to figure out. How do we think about that kind of. Of thing?

[D]

You want to go first, Nolan? You live in Phoenix.

[A]

Nolan's like, let the old guy go first, Darren. Yeah, yeah.

[E]

I mean.

[A]

Take it, Darren.

[D]

That's what I would say. The idea of Christians, God in general, Jehovah, Yahweh, about this heart for immigrants is on full display in Scripture, right?

[A]

That's right.

[D]

But if you go to the Old Testament and you start looking at those commands, there's like six or seven of them. And by the way, three of them seem like they fit really good with the Republican Party, and three of them kind of fit really well with the Democratic Party because it does say, hey, welcome, love. But it also says these are different commands that are worth reading. It was conditional entry. If you're going to welcome an immigrant in, it depended on moral and spiritual alignment. Deuteronomy 23:3.

[A]

You're talking about essentially the immigration. The immigration principles of the Old Testament. This is what you're referring to? Yeah, keep going. I just wanted listeners to know what you were talking about keep going.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. Sorry if I wouldn't clear on that because that's what. Especially from Christians right now. That's one of the debates. There's churches in Nashville right now that would. They're just really angry at all the immigration policies happening right now because they read the welcome the immigrant and love the immigrant.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

And then they skip over the. They have to obey the laws. Just Deuteronomy 23, right. Moral alignment. You have to leave your foreign gods behind. You know, that's 100% what God was saying. That's Deuteronomy live under Israel's law. Numbers 15, 15 and 16, their borders were not open. Their borders were protected and they were closed for purity. And they had to decide who went in and who got to stay in and who had to leave based on whether or not they would adapt to Israeli as to Jewish customs, laws and religion, as opposed to coming in and saying, we could have a false God here and a false God there, there. And in America, you know, we've. We've said over the years that pluralism is our strength. And I guess the more I think it's just nonsense like we need to be unified around something. And what we're seeing in the UK was, is the fall, the disaster of pluralism. And you know, I think as a nation right now, we, we're in a place right now where we don't have a unifying set of the truth that we go around. And so there's war because you're true and my true with it. So, you know, reverse engineering it back what we're seeing, even with that guy in New York, you know, he's. He is literally an immigrant in our country who is now, you know, blasting our nation, demanding that we're going to all do this. He's everything in those commands of Moses of God to Israel. That is kind of. I don't know if it's. It's thrown in my face. I don't know if it's thrown in your face. Which is ironic since we give away millions of dollars to helping people in other nations. You know, I don't know why they would throw that at me, but they do here in Nashville. But they skip over the rest of that part like it's. We have to have both of those for successful immigration for our nation to survive. And I was talking to Steven Mansfield, I don't know if you know who that is, but really well versed in this. And he's saying, look what's happening in Europe. If you get plans for Europe in your bucket list list, you better do that in the next 10 years because Europe is mid fall right now in Islam UK is mid fall. And there doesn't seem to be a way back from it. And so we as Christians in America, not about Islamophobia, it's about unity. It's about protecting our family, our wives, our children, our way of life. And again, you've said it, Josh, so many times. Like if the godly will not step into the these political arenas, the godless will.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

And the only thing I would add to that is false God's will as well, bro.

[A]

Okay, so let me toss two things up. Trinity. I'm going to toss two things up right here and then Nolan, I'm going to come to you. So first of all, I went ahead and grabbed toss up the contrast between American born and foreign born. The polls for Mamdani real quick because I referenced it. So this was like shortly before the election. So you've got it right there. Among American born New Yorkers it was. Mamdani only had support at 31%. Among foreign born New Yorkers it was 62%. So dude, it's really awkward, but like what people are pointing out is like, hey man, like in one sense, like what they were saying was demographics is destiny was the way they were saying it. The other thing that I'll point out to what Darren just said and it's like this is the thing that Christians, I think Christians are just now trying to figure out out how are we supposed to think about this? Because we are the love, the immigrant people. If you know anything about Lake Point, like that's like, that's like our thing. The other thing people are pointing out is like, do you have that thing, trinity of the most popular names of children born in European cities? So check this out. This is to Darren's point. So you run down the list. Obviously in Warsaw you got John. So okay, there you go. London, Muhammad, Manchester, Muhammad, Berlin, Mohammed, Brussels, Muhammad, Amsterdam, Muhammad, the Hague, Muhammad, Oslo, Muhammad. The most common baby names in the cities. And people are just pointing out like, hey man, like in like essentially Europe has fallen. Is kind of the vibe.

[D]

Yeah, it is. It's the foundation. Is, is, is gone. And now it's just a matter of of time. We actually had some kids in Italy just doing a little trip. They ended up having to leave early. This is just like last month because the Palestinian protests were breaking out in the streets. They were literally just all over Italy, Rome, blocking train stations, Hundreds of thousands of Muslims across Germany, France, Italy, uk And the one thing that they're doing right now, long game strategy, is out immigrating us and out breeding us. They're going to outvote us. You know, inside of Israel, I know that most people don't know this, but there are 2 million Arabs that live inside of Israel. Like, that's, you know, they're apparently really terrible at genocide, but that's a battle that they're facing is how do we, you know, keep our values with. And by the way, many of those Arabs I know personally and they, they want to be in Israel, they don't want to be anywhere else. But what's happening inside of UK right now is they're out. They're being out cultured, they're being outnumbered and outvoted is what is, what's next. And they did the same thing, by the way, the Syrian war. We want to welcome the immigrants. I totally get it. I totally understand. I've stood on the northern shore of Morocco with immigrants, like trying, just literally trying to get. They're desperate. So there was a good heart behind it, but the execution of it with a wide open door coming right alongside of genuinely people that probably needed the help were the terrorists themselves sneaking in and their families sneaking in and then radicalizing them. Again. If you're an oppressed versus oppressor, really religion, which is Islam, and you get into uk and now I can't find a job because for whatever reason, in their mind, the reason is because I'm Muslim and I'm being persecuted. So even in that, if they didn't come radicalized, they can get radicalized real quick by just spending a bunch of time on TikTok.

[A]

Wow. All right. But, but Nolan, I'm gonna ask you. But Nolan, you can't oppose these things because Christians are supposed to love the sojourner and the immigrant. Pastor Nolan, what, what, what response?

[E]

We do love the sojourner. We do love the immigrant, but we are also a nation with laws. And we need to be a place that maintains a certain upholding of the law, the laws of the country. You know, it's funny because for me, I am the son of a first generation American. My, my, my grandparents immigrated here legally. My dad is first generation American and I was raised being told what a great country this is, and there is a reason we immigrated here. And so I think as we see folks immigrate into the country, a lot of people are escaping something. That's true of my family. And we came here because of the values in America that made America a country of worth immigrating to. And so what I would contend is that there is in New York kind of the opposite, where you say, hey, I came here to escape something, but I'm going to bring values from outside of this country into this country. And in particular, I'm talking mandami, I'm talking communism, I'm talking fundamentally non American values. So I think as, as, as the, the grandson of an immigrant and the son of a first generation American, this is a great country to be, and it's a country founded on Christian virtues. But there is a revolution happening from the inside out, dude.

[A]

So this is what I think, where I think a lot of Christians really struggle with this is category confusion. And you guys can feel free to push back on this. But in the scriptures there's consistently, there's a differentiation between the role of the individual and the, the role of a state. And this is why people will read the Bible and they'll be like, man, it says this thing over here and it seems to contradict over here. Actually, there's no contradiction. There's just a differentiation between the role of the individual and the role of the state. So this is why, for instance. That's right. This is why, for instance, the Bible will command individual Christians. Jesus will say, hey man, we should not be people who quote, live by the sword. But then it will command a government. In Romans 13, it will actually command the government to, quote, unquote, quote, bear the sword. This is why, for instance, the Bible will command individual Christians to, quote, love the sojourner and the alien that resides among you. But then it will actually bless and affirm a government in protecting a wall to protect its borders. Okay, well, why? Because there's a differentiation between the role of the individual and the role of the state in the scriptures. Then you take it a layer deeper and this is a whole different discussion. Catholics call it ordo amoris. It means ordered loves. But it's like, we all know this where it's like, hey man, like all three of us are dads. My God given role. And this is really interesting. Watch. So I'm gonna say three things. And the first two, everyone would be like, well, of course. And then when I say the third one, there's gonna be like, you know, people tend to have like a big cringe. I'm a dad. My job is to care about my kids in a way that I do not care about your kids. That's my job.

[E]

That's right.

[A]

Okay. And I'M supposed to prioritize them in a way that I do not prioritize other people's kids. I'm the pastor of Lake Point Church. My job is to prioritize Lake Point Church in a way that I do not prioritize and care for every church in the entire world. I give disproportionate affection and attention to Lake Point Church because God has given me this leadership role. Well, the role of governmental leaders, guess what, Is to prioritize the nation over which God has put them in authority. They have a responsibility for the good of that nation that they do not have for every nation in the entire world and the citizens of every nation in the entire world. You stack those two things together, differentiation between the role of the individual and the role of a state. State and the unique responsibility of a leader. God given responsibility for the thing over which he has been appointed to lead. And man, it's all of a sudden you get like, hey, man. Yeah, it's like, it's actually righteous to have a clear immigration policy. Make sense? Yes. No, Agree. Disagree. Additional comments Totally agree.

[D]

Because we do this.

[A]

You're right.

[D]

In your own family. We do it in our church. With what's happening right now with the government shutdown, we drew the concentric circles. Like, we're going to start with our church here with our families. If you're struggling with SNAP benefits, we're going to cover you first.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

We're covering the community next. And so we could, you know, these. Because we're going to run out of money before the world runs out of need. We do that. We have to make that decision every day in Haiti.

[A]

That's great.

[D]

We can only feed so, so many people because I only have a finite amount of resources for that. So, you know, in the world, I think what, you know, Mandami's, you know, I think his most troubled constituent is going to be reality because he has this idea that we can just make money out of nowhere, you know, like Santa Claus.

[A]

Darren, did you see that? Literally, I think it was literally this morning. He was, he was asking for a donation to cover the campaign promises that he made because he, like, literally this morning began realizing, like, oh, I can't pay for this stuff that I like, bro. Got mugged by reality in a day.

[D]

Yeah. Be watching for the GoFundMe coming out of Mandami's office. But that's the thing, right? I mean, I heard you say this in another podcast. You, you know, secular progressives especially, they're really Generous with other people's money.

[A]

Right.

[D]

But it's our own. But when it comes to that, like, as a nation, we're $37 trillion in debt. Like, that's a real thing. And I think it was Thomas Sowell that said that inflation is the cost of all that free money. And what we're seeing here right now, everybody's trying to figure out where all inflation came from. Well, how about we just printed $15 trillion out of nowhere? So my point of all that, if we're talking about Christian and Christian love, it is not loving for me in Haiti to give so much food to so many people that now nobody's helped. As Nolan was talking earlier, it's the Genesis 3 world. This world is curved on the edges. There's no straight lines here. So we have to. To make really tough decisions. And it's the least favorite part of my job is that we have to say no to more people than we can say yes to. But if I don't, then I'm not loving the people that God has charged me to love and to protect.

[A]

That's right. Starting with our own church. Right.

[D]

Starting with my own family.

[A]

So let me. First of all, everyone should read Thomas Sowell. I'm literally reading Thomas. I'm literally reading Thomas Sowell right now. Like, great. Potentially the greatest economist and kind of like almost like an economic philosopher of our generation. Like, the dude is an absolute machine, a unit. So. But let's land on this. All right, to your point, Darren. And then Nolan alluded to this a second ago. For a lot of people, the most terrifying they heard. Terrifying thing they heard from Mahdani was in his. In his celebration speech, post, post election results. So then go ahead and toss that. It's the one that I put at the very bottom there. Trinity. This is. Oh, my gosh, listen to this. Holy cow. We will prove that there is no problem too large for government to solve and no concern too small for it to care about. I have no words.

[D]

He said that out loud.

[A]

He said it out loud. I think it was Ronald Reagan that said the nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm here from the gov. I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.

[D]

Yeah, I'm old enough to remember when he said that the first time, by the way. You guys had to Google that. But I remember hearing it on tv.

[A]

All right, Nolan, respond. Respond to the statement of an actual communist saying, we're going to prove there is no problem too big for the government to solve. And no problem too small for the government. Government to care about. Nola Jaden, what say you?

[E]

Well, Bishop. Bishop Howerton, I was at the DMV yesterday, and I do not want the DMV solving any of my problems. Like, I think government is part of the problem. Yeah, yeah. So we're looking at God becoming government, and I think it's a form of idolatry that that's going to grow and grow. And it's, at its core, fundamentally not Christian thinking. The biblical worldview would insist that we depend upon God, that we have sphere sovereignty. It's Jesus who looks at every square inch of creation and says, mine.

[A]

Shout out. Abraham Kepper.

[E]

Yeah. And so I'm. I'm looking to the authority of Christ. I'm looking to the hope of Christ. And I think because we're in a world that is so post Christian, the government is becoming the next best savior. But again, as you embrace the salvation of government, you also embrace slavery to it.

[A]

Bro, I will just say this is really interesting. My first thought when I saw that quote was, if you replace the word government with the word God, that is something that every Christian would say. So think about that. He said, man, we're here to pray. There's no problem too big for the government to solve and no problem too small for the government to care about. What are we as pastors trying to disciple our people to? Hey, man, there's actually no problem too big for God to solve for you, and there's no problem too small for God to care about. So, dude, I will point this out. Historically, socialism and communism are inherently atheistic philosophies. And when you subtract God from the equation, there, therefore now is no authority higher than the government. So what happens? The government becomes God. And he's literally saying it out loud. Exactly what we would say in Christian theology about the role of a sovereign God.

[D]

Yeah, I've said so many times on Sundays, Mike is sitting here. He's probably heard me say he could memorize it. But, you know, infinite God means infinitely large, which means he's infinitely powerful, but he's also infinitely small, which means he's larger enough. He's small enough to know your problems and powerful enough to solve them. And you're right. That's literally what he was saying. That's the Antichrist, Bizarro Superman version of that. The exact opposite, which is the government version. And look, I have a lot of empathy in that world because I grew up extremely poor. Food stamps, government assistance. And the thing about that was and social justice in general is you get a free sandwich, but you don't get get any hope. And it was, it was the gospel that brought me out of that broke the entitlement, even just something simple as giving, right? That helped me to break the entitlement thing. Because if you're just getting, getting, getting, it's something we teach our people when we're in other. In developing nations. There's a book called When Helping Hurts that I read once a year. And every year I'm like, oh, God, we did that. I feel like everybody in government should be forced to read this book because you can try to help somebody and then end up creating an entitlement thing. And I've done it 25 years ago when I started, I was young and stupid and created kind of this little entitlement thing in the first mission we did. And I've discovered that book. And so here's what I would say to this. We're all talking. I say we all, both sides seem to be talking to the same problems, right? We want to help the poor, we want to help the disenfranchised. But the message is different. The solution is different. And their solution is government. Our solution is God. And, you know, may the best God win.

[A]

Amen, bro. That's a great place to land. Darren Tyler and Nolan Jaden, thank you all for hopping on Live Free. Welcome. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today. Today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church Online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church. Livefree. We'll see you next time.