How can a LOVING God send people to HELL!? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Live Free with Josh Howerton
Episode: How can a LOVING God send people to HELL!?
Date: March 23, 2026
Host: Lakepointe Church
Guests: Carlos Arazo, Pastor Paul Cunningham

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Overview

This episode tackles one of the most challenging theological and emotional questions: "How can a loving God send people to hell?" Pastor Josh Howerton, along with Carlos Arazo and Pastor Paul Cunningham, break down scriptural teaching, historical doctrines, and common misconceptions about hell, the afterlife, and God's justice. The conversation weaves together biblical exegesis, practical implications for evangelism, and responses to both classic and modern objections. The episode is characterized by candid, sometimes fiery conversation, a sense of evangelical urgency, and passionate defense of biblical orthodoxy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Justice, Evangelism, and Christian Engagement in Culture

Timestamps: 00:00–08:52

• The episode opens with a provocative comparison: society accepts criminals going to jail but rails against the idea of sinners facing eternal punishment.
  • "People don't have any problem saying that people convicted of a crime should go to jail, but they freak out when you talk about somebody that's guilty of sin going to hell. This is justice, man." – Josh, [00:00]
• Call to Christian engagement in public life: "If godly people don’t step into this arena, then godless people will…there is not one square inch of the universe over which Christ does not stand and cry, ‘Mine.’" – Josh, [05:30]
• Discussion of political activism and voter turnout, emphasizing that Christians must be "salt of the earth" and not stay silent on cultural issues.
  • "[T]his stuff matters because it determines the cultural inheritance we will hand to our children..." – Josh, [07:33]

2. Misconceptions About Hell and Afterlife—Biblical & Historical Context

Timestamps: 16:10–29:43, 42:57–69:52

• Explanation of "Gehenna": Jesus refers to the Valley of Ben Hinnom outside Jerusalem—a place of ancient child sacrifice then later a cursed garbage dump.
  • "It’s a place that’s unholy. There’s no worship… and there was fires and death there. And Jesus is going—it’s like that." – Josh, [25:26]
• Language in Scripture: Some biblical references to hell are metaphorical, but regardless, metaphors point to a reality more intense, not less.
• The "intermediate state": Most Christians misunderstand the afterlife's timing. After death and before final judgment, souls exist in an intermediate state—"Abraham's bosom" (for the righteous) and "Hades"/Sheol (for the unrighteous). Final destinations (new heaven/new earth and lake of fire) occur after Christ’s return (Revelation 20–21).
  • "There is no such thing as soul sleep…to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord..." – Josh, [29:04]

3. Historical Doctrinal Views on Hell

Timestamps: 41:34–61:47

Paul reviews four main Christian views plus the Catholic concept of purgatory:

1. Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)

• The historic, majority view: Unbelievers consciously suffer eternally. Supported by passages like Matthew 25, Revelation 20, 2 Thessalonians 1.
• "All who don't repent and believe in Jesus suffer consciously, forever... if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." – Paul, [44:26]

2. Annihilationism/Conditionalism

• The belief that the unsaved will ultimately cease to exist after judgment; historically rare and mostly recent (~1800s), especially in British evangelicalism.
• "[They] will simply cease to exist… this view is extraordinarily rare.” – Paul, [47:49]
• Addressed as a major theological error, but generally not outright heresy.

3. Generic Universalism (Heresy):

• "All are saved regardless of Jesus." Church history and scripture condemn this view.
• "If you don't believe in hell, you don't understand the cross..." – Carlos, [53:13]

4. Christian Universalism (Heresy):

• "All are saved because of Jesus (eventually everyone repents, even from hell)."
• No biblical support for post-mortem universal repentance or "postmortem evangelism."

5. Purgatory (Catholic View):

• A "hell-adjacent" state for believers to complete sanctification before heaven.
• “Not one verse in your Bible… even alludes to the concept of purgatory.” – Josh, [63:26]
• Originates from apocryphal writings, not canon; is at odds with the "It is finished" (tetelestai) statement by Jesus on the cross.

Notable Quote:

• "When Jesus hung on the cross…He did not cry, 'It is almost finished.' He cried out, 'It is finished.'" – Josh, [67:34]

4. The Rich Man and Lazarus: Parabolic Meaning and Social Context

Timestamps: 32:30–37:01

• Parable’s layers: Potentially a prophetic warning aimed at the high priests' family (Annas, Caiaphas), who were powerful, wealthy, and opposed Jesus.
  • "Some people think…this parable is a public prophetic warning to the most powerful and corrupt religious family in Israel." – Carlos, [35:47]

5. Evangelistic Urgency & The Weight of Eternity

Timestamps: 39:13–41:28, 75:12–79:14

• Quoting Charles Spurgeon:
  • "If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies…let not one sinner go there unwarned and unprayed for." [39:09]
• Illustration: life’s countdown clock—each soul only has so much time, then enters eternity.

6. Common Modern Objections to Hell

Timestamps: 70:09 – 100:58 (With responses)

• "How can a loving God send people to hell?"
  God doesn’t desire anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9), hell’s original purpose was for the devil and his angels, and God loves people sufficiently to die for them.
  • Notable line: "God did not create hell…with the intent of people ending up in hell. He created heaven... hell was for the devil and his angels." – Josh, [71:06]
• "It feels unfair!"
  The gravity of sin is measured by the greatness of the One sinned against. Hell is justice; heaven is what’s not fair ("No one has ever asked…how a just God could send me to heaven").
• "What about people who never hear the gospel?"
  Romans 1–2: God judges everyone justly and reveals himself through creation; people are judged by the knowledge they had. Missionary urgency remains.
  • "God has revealed himself in creation... Sociologists point out there has never been a civilization without religion." – Josh, [82:13]
• "Isn’t Jesus all about love/forgiveness?"
  Yes, but Jesus is also judge; he will reign over hell (Revelation 20, 14:10).
  • "Jesus is not your homeboy... the first time he came as a lamb; the second time, he comes as a lion."
• "Hell isn’t real, just a metaphor."
  Video critique of pop-spirituality/relativist takes; the team highlights the biblical and historical realities of final judgment.

Notable R.C. Sproul Clip [76:36]:

• "If I do [go to hell], I could make no just complaint against Him. I've been guilty of treason. Every time I have sinned, I have asserted my will over the will of my Creator..."
• Commentary on the souls in hell: divided between “weeping” (devastation) and “gnashing of teeth” (fury at God).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Go get you one more.” (Evangelism urgency)—Josh, [40:22]
• “There is not one square inch of the universe over which Christ does not stand and cry, ‘Mine.’”—Josh, [05:30]
• On wrongly downplaying mentions of hell: “In eternity, nobody is going to be saying, man, I wish you talked less about hell now.”—Josh, [37:11]
• “Hell is where everyone gets exactly what they deserved. The place where everything is not fair is heaven.”—Josh, [75:13]
• "What beliefs will compel you to be a good, righteous, and loving man that uses his strength for a purpose greater than himself?”—Josh, [95:32]
• R.C. Sproul: "If I know anything about theology, I know that if He sent me to hell tonight, I could make no complaint against Him..."—[77:29]

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Key Timestamps

• Justice and Evangelism: 00:00–08:52
• Hell in Scripture/Gehenna: 16:10–29:43
• Intermediate State Explained: 29:43–39:13
• Historical Views of Hell: 41:34–61:47
• Objections to Hell & Responses: 70:09–100:58
• R.C. Sproul’s clip (on hell’s justice): 76:36–78:35

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Tone & Style

• Direct, sometimes humorous, but pastoral and urgent—heavy topics are addressed with both gravity and compassion.
• Honors the weight of biblical teaching, pushes for clarity and courage, especially when addressing cultural or theological drift.
• Socratic back-and-forth and banter among pastors, but all aimed at equipping lay Christians with sturdy, historic, and biblical answers.

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Conclusion

The episode challenges listeners to confront both the reality and the urgency of hell, not as a relic of religious tradition, but as a critical truth that should inspire reverence, humility, gratitude for Christ, and a burning heart for evangelism. The team dismantles popular cultural (and some Christian) misconceptions while holding out the hope and sufficiency of Jesus’ finished work.

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For Further Exploration:

• See cited episodes for deep dives into annihilationism and other doctrines (links in shownotes).
• Recommended: Reading Luke 16 (Rich Man & Lazarus), reviewing key passages (Matt 25, Rev 20–21).
• Invitation to Easter services and connection to the ongoing discipleship mechanisms at Lakepointe Church.

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"Live Free, brothers and sisters."

Transcript

[A]

People don't have any problem saying that people convicted of a crime should go to jail, but they freak out when you talk about somebody that's guilty of a sin going to hell. This is justice, man.

[B]

Religion without repentance is dangerous and can literally cost you your eternity.

[A]

Satan wants to, like, anesthetize us to the reality of hell so that we will no longer have an urgency of evangelism to tell people about Jesus.

[B]

Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church Online. Every weekend, we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring, exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend and now enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the live free podcast. Oh, we're not.

[A]

Go ahead. Yes, go ahead. Okay.

[B]

Well, my name is Carlos Arazo, and I'm here with Pastor Josh Allerton and Pastor Paul Cunningham coming to you from Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. And today, things will get heated.

[A]

Oh, I see what he did.

[C]

Great dad joke.

[B]

Because we're going to be talking about misconceptions about hell.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What about the Catholic belief in purgatory?

[A]

Whoops.

[B]

What are the. What's Abraham's bosom in Hades that the New Testament refers to? That are different places in heaven and hell?

[A]

Which, by the way, they are.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Well, I want to know more about that. Do people who never hear the gospel go to hell? And how Josh wants to leverage this podcast to flip an election. Pastor Josh, what is going on?

[A]

We're gonna do play the Trump clip first. Oh, yeah, we better. That's what we were laughing. So this is what we were laughing about when the episode started. This has no educational value whatsoever. It does have humor value. I'm playing this. So we were. This is an actual clip today. All right, so what I'm getting ready to play. They didn't know I was going to do this. This is the Japanese prime Minister in the Oval Office with the president of the United States. And this exchange happen.

[D]

But one question. Why didn't you tell us allies in Europe and Asia, like Japan, about the war before attacking Iran? So.

[A]

So he's going, hey, man, you guys surprised us with striking Iran.

[C]

All right?

[A]

Now, wait. He's like, why did you do that? You should. Me and Japan and you guys, we're allies now. Watch this.

[D]

We are very confused about We Japanese. Well, one thing, you don't want to signal, you know, when we go in. We went in very hard, and we didn't tell anybody about it because we wanted surprise.

[C]

Who knows better about surprise than Japan?

[D]

Here it goes.

[A]

Here it goes.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Why didn't you tell me about Pearl Harbor? Okay.

[A]

My Grandpa Hemingway, who's 96, he's been waiting 70 years for that joke. Come on, listen, I don't care who you are. That's funny.

[C]

That's pretty funny.

[A]

That's funny. That's funny. That's hilarious. What were we talking about?

[B]

We were talking about hell.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And speaking of hell.

[A]

Oh, no. Flip an election.

[B]

Oh, that's right. That's right.

[A]

Okay, okay, for real, we're gonna do this. We're gonna embark on a journey on Live Free. So here's what we're gonna do. This stupid little podcast has large enough listenership. I'm starting to realize, like, we could actually. We could leverage. We could leverage. Live Free Nation is a real deal. So here's what's happening. Will you pull up that. Will you pull up that Texas midterm election where this stands right now? So we've hit this, like, twice in the podcast. James Talrico, Synagogue of Satan. Guys, like a literal, actual, biblically defined heretic. Like actual heretic that is Democratic candidate running in Texas right now. Check this out. In. In Texas. Let me say it one more time. Posture dramatic effect in Texas. James Talarico, God is non binary. There are six genders, you know, with. With a mask on his face, doing the whole. My administration has committed to not eating meat because it's bad for the environment. That. That guy is currently. Right now. Let me pause this.

[D]

Is.

[A]

This is serious. Is currently leading. Leading in polling leading up to the midterms in Texas over both of the potential conservative candidates. So you're talking about a d. This, like, radical, transgender ideology, socialism, light, all the things. Like, he's just. He's. Is it as an actual heretic? So here's the deal. Some People, this may not be some people's cup of tea. We love you and we. And we don't care. So what I would say is I just want to remind us why we're going to do this. I'm going to tell you what we're going to do. You guys, you guys, actually, I don't think know all of this right now. Here's the deal. I'm going to keep saying this. People are like, hey, Josh, you know, stay out of politics. No, because all we're doing is taking the Bible and applying it to every area of our lives. There is not one square inch of the universe over which Christ does not stand and cry. Mine. Okay, so the deal is, let me remind us, Live Free Nation, if godly people don't step into this arena, then godless people will. Right now. 40 million. I'm a pause and just say this. 40 million Bible believing Christians don't vote in presidential elections. Let me just pause and just say we had a president presidential election a few years ago that was decided by less than 1 million votes. And 40 million Bible believing Christians sat out that election, a tiny fraction even of that vote in midterm elections. So here's the deal. Satan doesn't stay out of politics, so Team Jesus should not. We are commanded to be the salt of the. Not the salt of the church, the salt of the earth. Earth is what we're supposed to do. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to step into this and literally we're going to make this little theme run up. We won't. It's not going to dominate the podcast. That's not what I do. But I want to leverage Live Free Nation to activate Christians into actually stepping into being the salt of the earth and not letting morally disproportionately degraded policies get enacted in. In your state. And very frankly, my bigger play is if we can do it and actually leverage something that's going to send a signal to other churches in America, like, wait, we can actually win. So, like, it's that Rocky IV moment. He's got.

[C]

He's got a bad guy.

[A]

You know, I want to do that. Okay.

[B]

I'm a fan of rock.

[C]

I was really nervous.

[B]

I don't know that I recognize the

[C]

quote, but I have definitely the turning

[A]

point of the fight. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Oh, got it.

[A]

It's a fight that rock. Nobody thinks Rocky can win.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

And then he. He gets the. The right. It's a left hook on Ivan Drago cuts him and like, he's cut. He's cut and it's a bad cut.

[C]

He's not a machine. That's amazing.

[A]

Okay, so listen.

[E]

He bleeds.

[A]

That's it. He bleeds. That's right. So here's the deal, man. What this stuff matters because it determines the cultural inheritance we will hand to our children and our grandchildren. And it matters for the purposes of the Great Commission. We are determining now by how Christians engage in a public square how easy or difficult it will be for the future church in America to accomplish the Great Commission. And again, it's like super awkward and uncomfortable. It's kind of thing like people don't like it when pastors say it. It's just a reality everywhere that progressive policies advance in cities and states, those are the places with the fewest churches. It becomes very, very hard for churches to get built and grow and advance in those regions. Obviously, nothing's outside of the power of God. I'm just saying, from a human perspective, it gets really difficult. So as a dad, I'll be honest. Here's what I'm unwilling to do. I'm unwilling for my kids to have to live in a much harder world where it's hard to be a Christian, where it's, you know, where it's much harder to be a Christian. And then them look back and go, why didn't my dad try to do something about it? I'm just not. I'm not going to do that. And I'm not going to do it for the sake of future. So here's what we're doing, man. Live Free Nation. We're going to do this. We're going to. We're going to. We're going to try. We're trying to flip.

[B]

We're going to try to flip it

[A]

like an election right now. It's not up yet. I got a guy, a buddy of mine that's working on building a. It's going to be a very, very simple website where somebody can text. I think we're going to have it where they text. Either vote or salt. Stay tuned to a number it will send. Anybody you send that to, to a website where all somebody's got to do is they're going to put in their home address and it will automatically spit out to them voting locations and dates. That's it. And then we're just going to try to make that thing go viral. And then especially pastors, because pastors a lot of times, like, dude, I don't know how to do this without, like splitting my church and Feeling really awkward. It's actually really easy. You don't even need to tell your people who to vote for right there. Honestly, you just need to get them to vote. And spirit filled Christians will generally do the right thing.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So honest man, let's see what we can do live free nation. Let's see if we can flip an election.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Okay, so stay tuned more for coming soon.

[A]

Well, first of all, you can comment all of the angry, you hate this comments on YouTube and help our algorithm. There you go.

[B]

There you go. Pastor Josh, we. We missed you last episode.

[C]

Welcome back, man.

[A]

I love you.

[B]

How was the Disney trip?

[A]

You know, it was so good that I didn't miss you and I didn't go to Disney. Oh, wait, wait. What? We were at Universal.

[B]

Who said that? Okay, okay, we were at Universal, but

[C]

I. Yeah, but then I said last joking.

[B]

Oh, I didn't. Ye. Okay, well, how was Universal?

[A]

It was amazing. Okay, well, we're. We're universal people, man.

[B]

It's, you know, not universalism, but we're

[A]

going to talk about that. That's right.

[B]

That's right. But go ahead.

[A]

I mean, do we had a great time? The best. The chase. The best time is at the end of every day. I would do this thing where it's like, okay, girls, you can torture dad now. And I would ride any ride they wanted. So then, you know, it's like every ride that gets you soaked.

[C]

Dad's in the front, you guys in front, dad.

[A]

Yeah, I'm walking around the park, you know, totally soaked. Or Eliana is whatever goes fast. Like she's. Dude, she does that, the doom drop thing that just takes you. Drops you. She loves that stuff.

[B]

You like that stuff?

[A]

I hate it. So she, she pulled me on the. The biggest coasters. They got her velocicoaster and the Hulk and she had me whipping all over the place. And Ron42, man, I feel that now.

[B]

So back. Okay.

[A]

No, but it was awesome, man.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

It was great. Hey, y' all did a good job last week. You had a good job talking about Nephilim. It's great, dude.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for watching.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hey, Easter is coming up in a couple weeks here at Lake Point. It's a big deal. April 3rd to 5th. Eight campuses here in the DFW area. Big celebration. Resurrection of Jesus. Pastor Josh, would you invite our live free nation to come hang out?

[A]

You're crazy if you don't come. So if you were ever going to come to an in person service, come at Easter. You're gonna get. It's gonna be, you know, 200 proof Jesus and gospel. We're gonna worship our faces off. It's gonna be a big, big dang celebration. And honestly, man, if you're like, not a church dude yet, like, man, just dip your toe in the water. It's gonna get on you. Yeah. And this is your spot, man. This is where you want to be. It's like, these are like our Super Bowl. They're like my favorite services of the year.

[B]

And so if you're part of the Live for nation and you come visit us in person, please come say hi, find us at our first time guest tent. We got a free merch for you, bro.

[A]

We're giving away tons of those, by the way. Tons, bro.

[B]

We have people visiting from, like, literally outside of the stupid.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you got this? We'll do this real quick and then we're going to talk about hell.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So, okay, so this is last week. So, dude, this couple grabbed me in the lobby this week. They flew in from Switzerland. They're listening to Live Free over in Switzerland. So here's what's starting to happen, dude. You know, as the, you know, first of all, Shout Out Live Free Nation. This podcast, I think we're over 8 million downloads at this point. So what's starting to happen now is people in these, you know, more godless city states, regions like, dude, it brought tears my eyes. This family, they were telling, they were explaining to me, hey, we. We listen with our family, Live Free every week. So shout out to y', all, to David and Jana. Her name's Jana. I like that. And they were like, hey, man, man, we listen to you and we're Christians in a country that's not very Christian. They're like, it helps us remember we're not crazy.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

And it put. It puts courage in them. So hit that. Who's the other one we got? Yeah, this guy Jordan came in from Hawaii. Shout out Live Free Nation Hawaii. Flew in to worship with us. We got another one, this one from British Columbia. They said the same thing. They were like, hey, man, Canada's going nuts right now. British Columbia area. And same thing. It's like, man, listen to you. It helps us remember we don't. We're not crazy kind of thing. And this was my favorite one. So this dude. Shout out Stan. Let me get a shout out Stan. Stan flew in from. From Canada. Crushing it. As businessman, owns a big old ranch up there. He started four businesses. Christian dude in Canada, lives in the, like, the Wilderness of Canada on a 500 acre ranch. If I remember right. This guy Stan, he starts listening to some of our stuff online and he converts. This is legit, man. He showed me a picture. He converts his barn into a video venue little hundred seat worship thing because there's not like a good Bible preaching church close by, if I understand correctly. And he starts a house church with some of our online content so they'll play our stuff. This dude just starts a little pop up Lake Point campus in Canada.

[D]

Canada.

[B]

Let's go. Lake Point, Canada.

[A]

Lake Point. And he's playing our stuff, listening to Live Free. And this guy, they had, they baptized four people last week at his little ranch house church. And then when we did the whole marriage thing where it's like, hey, if you're shacking up and you're acting like you're in a covenant when you're not in a covenant yet, you need to get married and honor Jesus. They did it. And somebody in their house church was like, we're getting married.

[C]

No way.

[A]

So shout out to Stan.

[B]

That's called, man.

[A]

It was legit, man.

[B]

Live for nation, man. That's amazing. Honestly, in the comment section as well, we have people from like India.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. If you're listening, head over to YouTube and tell us where you're listening from in the comment section. That actually helps us know what's going on. And there's some things we do to sort of use that data.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That'd be awesome.

[B]

Shout out to last week's giveaway winner, Carson Johnson. And he won Green Kid who? Yes.

[A]

Yeah, that's a bowling Green kid. Yes.

[C]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

They. He responded to who did it better, McDonald's CEO or Pastor Josh. Pastor Josh, you were selected by most people.

[C]

Runaway vote.

[B]

Not surprised. And so to comment on this week's giveaway, text, not text, comment on YouTube or Spotify the word hat. We'd love to give some free merch. Also, if you want to purchase a hat, go to Live Free shop or text the word hat to 20411. We got. We've already sold over a thousand hats by the way.

[A]

That's awesome. We got some everywhere. Dude, I ran into. No joke. I think I would conservatively estimate we ran into 40 people at Universal who we ran into some people at Attend Lake Point in person and then a bunch of Live Free Nation folks. Like, I'm conservatively guessing 40. That's cool because it was a bunch of families that kept running up to Wild Man. In fact, I'll let Last thing. And let's talk about hell. This is. By the way, this is gonna be a very spicy episode for people who are listening. And that's not a joke. And we're gonna answer. There's a ton of misconceptions about hell that, very frankly, most Christians believe wrong things about hell, and they have no idea they believe wrong things. We're also going to get into some of the Catholicism purgatory stuff. That's actually kind of a big deal.

[B]

It is.

[A]

What was I talking about? Oh, I was on the Hulk. This is like the fastest roller coaster at Universal. And so, like, we finish, and I'm not a profanity guy, and I did not cuss on the ride. And when I was done, I was very glad that I did it because we finished, and the guy, the seat in front of me turns around and he goes, pastor Josh, we listen to Live Free. And you know, that's amazing. It was. It was awesome.

[B]

That's awesome. Hey. To find our daily Bible reading plan, plus the weekly sermon, plus an early release of delivery podcast, plus our discipleship guide with extra resources for you to use for your life group, download the Lake Point Church app text store at app to 20411 or go to Apple or Google Play Store. Pastor Josh, I have a question for you.

[A]

I will allow it.

[B]

What did it make to the sermon?

[A]

All right, this a lot. So let me do this fast, because this week in investigating Jesus, we're asking the question, what did Jesus say about hell in the afterlife life? We did the Luke passage about Lazarus and the rich man. It's Luke 16. What you got? By the way, a lot of people mess this up. Different Lazarus than the one he raised from the dead. A lot of people don't. They miss that. So let me do a few things. This is the exact type of passage that makes me really glad we got this podcast because there is a ton that did not make it in here. So a few things real quick. First of all, if you're Catholic especially, you're probably like, rich man of Lazarus. That's not what I've heard it called traditionally, especially in Catholic circles. This is the parable that will get called the parable of dives and Lazarus. Little interesting, little fun fact there. Church history later started calling the rich man dives. It's the Latin word for rich man, from the Latin vulgate. So a lot of Catholics think the dude's name was dives. That's not what it is. It's just the Latin vulgate for rich Man. So this is where this comes from. Now, in this parable, Jesus talks pretty extensively, obviously, about. Actually, he's not talking about hell. He's talking about two places that he refers to as Abraham's bosom and Hades that a lot of people think he's talking about heaven and hell, and he's not. He's actually talking about something that theologians have historically called the intermediate state that, very frankly, most Christians don't know anything about. So I'm going to explain this here in a second. That it's actually kind of important, but it has implications about heaven, about hell in particular. So I do just want to say this. Jesus talked about hell two times more than any other Bible author. Roughly 13% of Jesus teaching references or is about hell, punishment, judgment.

[D]

Half.

[A]

This is shocking to me. I came across this in prep. Half of Jesus parables are references about hell. Now, here's something. This kind of thing, I touched on this. I didn't have time to do deep dive. Will you go and pull up that. That first picture? So what will confuse a lot of Christians? And there's some misconceptions. Misconceptions about this? 11 times in the Gospels, the word that gets translated as hell is the Greek word gehenna. And a lot of Christians have heard this first part, but they don't know the second part, the gehenna. This gehenna is a. It's a Greek word that is. It refers to something. It's called the Valley of Ben Hinnom. This right. Right outside of Jerusalem. Paul, have you been. Oh, that's right.

[B]

He has not yet.

[C]

One day.

[B]

One day.

[A]

He has not. He has not been. That joke's played.

[C]

No, no.

[B]

I'm sure that whatever it is you're gonna tell us, it's gonna be amazing.

[C]

It was whatever you had said.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If I'd have seen it in person, I'm sure right now my mind looks

[A]

like your mind would be blown.

[B]

Paul, there's a photo right there. You can probably appreciate it.

[A]

This is the closest.

[C]

I'm sure it's the exact same as seeing it in person. Yeah.

[A]

All right. So it's a great photo, by the way, when Jesus 11 times uses the word gehenna, he's referring to this spot right here. You'll see right there. So you got the Kidron Valley over there. If you look up at the back, there's the Mount of Olives. That's where Jesus ascended into heaven. And then the Book of Zechariah says that his feet will touch that place. I Think when he returns. And then this is important, Paul, especially for you. If you look to the left, there's a little arrow there that points to Jerusalem.

[C]

I'll imagine it that you haven't seen.

[A]

Now, right outside of Jerusalem, when you look over the walls is this spot the Hinnom Valley. Now let me explain why Jesus 11 times, when he's talking about hell, uses Gehenna. So this is a little like, you got to really be a theology nerd to understand what's going on here. If you go back to Genesis 32, 35, it's, I think, the Bible's first mention of the valley of Ben Hinnom. What are you laughing at, Carlos?

[B]

I was just trying to contain my blood. Go ahead. We need to keep going.

[A]

So here's what it says. They built the high places of BAAL in the valley of. Of the son of Hinnom. So Ben is just the Hebrew word for son of. So it's translation Valley of Ben Hinnom. This is important to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech. Though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind that they should do this abomination. Now, this is really gross, but it actually is important. When this says they were offering up their sons and daughters to Molech, what they would literally do is Molech was a demonic false God. In the Old Testament, when they were worshiping, what they would do is they would cast a. If I understand this correctly, they would cast a graven image of this demon God, Molech. And very often what they would do is they would cast it in bronze with a big hole in the belly of the Moloch idol. And then they would put fire in there. They would heat it up to where it was glowing ember red. And then it's very gross and demonic. In order to make a sacrifice to this God, they would literally take newborn infants and burn them a lot, put them in this scalding bronze and burn them alive. Okay, so. And where was this happening? The Valley of Ben Hinnom. Okay, so bookmark that in your head. Now you fast forward a few hundred years, you get to second kings 23. All this is going to make sense what Jesus is doing here in a second. You Fast forward to 2 Kings 23. Josiah comes. You remember, he's a little. He's a young king, discovered the book of the law, leads the nation in national revival. He comes along, and that is still happening. So these detestable, pagan, demonic, gross practices that we still do in America, we just call it abortion they were doing this still in the valley of Ben Hinnom. So then this is what he did. Listen to this. Verse 2 Kings 23, During King Josiah's reforms, he. And it uses the word defiled. Some translations say desecrated or profaned. Nobody knows exactly what this means. He defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of Ben Hinnom, so that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech. Now if you go check out Bible, I did a little deep dive this week. If you go check out Bible scholars and you ask, okay, what did he do? Nobody knows. All they know is he did something that was so disgusting to holiness that he ensured no one would ever worship there ever again. Okay, so some people are like, you know, he made it ceremonial and clean according to the Old Testament law. Some people say that what he probably did is he scattered human bones, dead bodies, graves there. Because according to, you know, Leviticus, you can't be around that kind of thing if you're a Jewish person. All they know is he profaned that valley so much that no one could ever use it as a place of worship or sacrifice ever again. So then there was a development that happened here, and there are some. This is actually a little debated, but I'm going to say it anyway. There are some testimonies that eventually, because of that, everybody stop going there. It's right outside of the walls. And there are some testimonies that it became like a garbage heap or a dump where people would cast dead bodies. Anything that was ceremonially unclean, they would just toss it in that little valley. Human excrement, we take out their trash, all that kind of thing. Now, I want to show you again from a different angle, and I'm going to. To. I'm going to show you something here that the Valley of Ben Hinnom. Show that second picture. So what I want you to notice is it's a janky, pixelated picture. But you can see in the back left of the picture that's Mount Moriah. And that gold dome is the Dome of the Rock. That's where Al Aqsa, the Muslim mosque. It's actually. It's a holy place. Muslim holy place. This right there, that's where the temple was. So it's in the middle of Jerusalem. Now notice in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to this day, no homes, no sidewalks, no dwelling places whatsoever. No one to this day will build a home in Gehenna, because thousands of years ago, Josiah desecrated and Defiled it. And to this day, Jewish people are like, that is a no go zone. So think about this. It's a place that's unholy. There's no worship and no manifest presence of God is condemned forever. And there was fires and death there. And Jesus is going to. It's like that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Wow. Whatever hell is. It's like that. So we may get into probably at least some of the language of the Bible that talks about hell is probably metaphorical. We know that. I'm gonna give a reason. We know that. We know that because, for instance, it talks about hell as a place of, quote, utter darkness. But it also talks about hell as a place of eternal fire. Yeah, well, hey, you know, if there's a bunch of fire there, how's it dark? So we at least know in some sense it's a metaphor. But I will say this. If it's a metaphor, typically with a metaphor, the metaphor points to something even greater.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So there. There you have it. Let me say a couple other things about this passage. And then, Paul, I actually want you. Here's what we're gonna do in a second. I'm gonna say a few things about this passage. What I'm gonna have Paul do here in a second is there's about. Is it five?

[C]

Yeah, four or five.

[A]

Four or five, yeah. There's four views that Christians have. The people who call themselves Christians have historically held when it comes to what the Bible says about heaven, hell in the afterlife. I'm going to have Paul run through these very hotly debated views real quick so that we can do a little theological deep dive. But let me say a few things about this passage. That's where we're getting into purgatory and stuff. One very interesting thing that this passage does, and it trips up a lot of. A lot of Christians when they read it. So Jesus in this passage, you know, he tells the whole deal about the rich man who feasted sumptuously and was in purple and fine linen. And he's in. He uses the word Hades, which is interesting because that was like in Greek. That's a Greek mythology word. So people. Sometimes people like, huh, wonder what's going on there for where that dude was. Then he talks about Lazarus, who was a beggar, and he uses the phrase that he was in. He used the phrase Abraham's bosom. Now this is really interesting what's happening here. A lot of Christians have no idea. This is a thing. Jesus is talking about what theologians have historically called the intermediate state. So here's the question. The final destination for believers and unbelievers is at the end, when Jesus returns. He's going to cast the devil, his angels and unbelievers, According to Romans 14 and Romans 20, into the lake of fire. And that's hell. That's actual hell. But that didn't happen till Revelation 20. And then for believers again, Revelation is 21. Revelation 21. He's going to come and he's going to make all things new. He's going to actually renew the. A lot of Christians don't know this. The earth you are standing on, Texas and the Swiss Alps and the Ozarks and all the things. He's actually going to renew this earth. And he, with all of us, will live, rule and reign on this earth in its renewed state. But that doesn't happen, and that's heaven. And that doesn't happen until the end. So here's the question. What happens to people who die now? What happens in the intermediate time between now and when those things happen? That's what Jesus is talking about in this passage. So check this out. First of all, there is no. This is a misconception some Christians have. There is no such thing as soul sleep. That's a doctrine some people get because the New Testament will sometimes refer to death as sleep. We know that there's a million passages to be absent from the bodies, to be present with the Lord, thief on the cross.

[C]

Today, today you'll be with me in paradise.

[A]

You will be with me in paradise.

[D]

That's it.

[A]

Okay, so there's no such thing as soul sleep. So here's what happens in some sense that we don't fully understand right now. When you and you and me, if Jesus doesn't return before we die, we will die and go to some place that Jesus is referring to here as Abraham's bosom. What he's doing there is. It's using the. If you go read for you Bible nerds, go read John 13:23. It's the exact language that he uses when he describes the Apostle John leaning back against his chest at a meal. And so it's. It's Jewish language to say, like, hey, man, you're real tied up against somebody's chest and you're in a place of honor.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So there's a. There's a place that our soul goes that Jesus also refers to as paradise when he's talking about to the thief on the cross that we'll go as soon as we die. You're right there. But that's not Your final destination. And that's actually not the final heaven. It's an intermediate state of bliss and no suffering. And the presence of Jesus that will be in until Revelation 20, whenever that happens. And then for unbelievers, they will go to an intermediate place of suffering that is not the full suffering they'll experience. Tragically referred to in Revelation 14 and Revelation 20, called in the New Testament, Jesus is referring to it as Hades. It just means the place of the dead. When you read in most translations of the Bible in the Old Testament, you're going to see a word called Sheol. And it's actually really difficult. You could do a whole podcast just on Sheol. Sheol, it really just again, it just means the place of the dead. But in general, it's referring to an intermediate place of partial suffering and partial judgment that unbelievers go to for a temporary time until Revelation 14 and Revelation 20 happen. Jesus returns, casts unbelievers, the devil and Satan into the lake of fire. That's the final hell. So this is an intermediate state is what's going on right here. So that's what's happening now. I'll just say this. Some people hear that and they're, oh man, that seems mean. And you know, I wouldn't have done it that way. Well, I will, I'll just say this. I'm a quote. There's an old Baptist preacher named J. Vernon McGee. Paul, you probably heard it too. Okay, good job.

[B]

Definitely. Thank you. Definitely before my time, but go ahead.

[A]

He was on radio a lot when I was growing up And Jay Vernon McGee had a. Is that. This is throwing a little shade for sure.

[B]

It's on radio. I know that for a fact. Definitely not. Definitely not on Spotify or YouTube, that's for sure.

[A]

Well, Jay Verde Biggie on the radio, hitting a real interesting little voice. Stop laughing at me. J. Vernon McGee, he had this little quote, he said it like this. He said, people say, well, I wouldn't have done it that way if I was God. And J. Vernon McGee would say it like this. He say, well, this is God's universe and he does things his way. You may have a better way, but you don't have a universe. That's fire.

[B]

That's fire. No pun intended.

[C]

And from a non spiritual standpoint, I've seen these people drive on 30 and how mad they get when people just barely cut them off. So don't tell me that if you were God, you wouldn't have done it. I think you'd have actually done probably something Far away, worse.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Right in your, in your prep, I'm curious, because this passage is so rich, did you find anything about how some people think that the rich man could be Kus.

[A]

I have. I, until you just said that now I didn't. I, I, I have heard that before. What is there like there's a little

[B]

bit of a little theory. So many people believe that the, in this parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it is a, actually a prophetic satire and an indictment against the very same leaders that are plotting against Jesus in that moment. And so if you think about it, Luke 16, the story of the rich man and Lazarus, obviously Lazarus is named number one, which is unusual because the rich man is not. And usually at the time. Go ahead.

[A]

Lazarus is Fun fact. The only person in any parable Jesus ever told is given a proper name.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Which is weird that the rich man wasn't, because at the time, if you're powerful, you would be named. But then here's just a little bit of a reverse. But this is where it gets interesting. The rich man says in the parable or in the story, I have have five brothers. Now historically, the historian Josephus would tell us about this man named Annas who lived at the time of Jesus, who had five sons. And Annas was high priest in a different time during that time of Jesus, when he was born around that time. Paul, you can correct me on my timeline, but this family basically, again, high priest, extremely wealthy, powerful, very corrupt. They love power more than people. And they're obviously close to the Sadducees or they were Sadducees, they, which means that they refuse to believe in the resurrection.

[A]

And by the way, I'm lending more credence to this Jesus in this thing. In Luke 16, it comes right after his condemnation of the Pharisees, where he says, you guys love money. You cannot serve God of money.

[B]

That's right. That's right. Right before.

[A]

Right before. That's right.

[B]

And so Anna's high priest at the time, early at the time of Jesus, but then during Jesus time at the time, who, who was actually plotting to kill Jesus was Caiaphas. So he was the high PR in Jesus's trial.

[A]

And in Jerusalem, you get to go to Caiaphas's house. And under his house, you, you actually see it's a number one. We know exactly. We you, you can see exactly where Jesus was scourged. And you, and you know, Paul, have you.

[B]

Oh, he hasn't.

[A]

I'm done. That's the last time Every time though,

[C]

every time I feel like you guys are saying something serious and you like, bring me in, only like punch me,

[A]

like it's the last time.

[B]

So, so, so here's the plot twist. According to Josephus, Caiaphas was actually Anna's son in law.

[A]

Law.

[B]

So from Kaifa's perspective, Anna's five sons were essentially his brothers. And so could it be. Could it be that this rich man is Kaifas, who according to the parable is a rich, extremely wealthy and powerful man who love money, lives in luxury, purple fine linen, ignores the suffering at his gate, is connected to his father's house, which he mentions, and who also has five brothers who will also serve as powerful high priests at some point later. And he wants to warn his other five brothers about their corrupt lifestyle that they're living. And he says, oh, if somebody rises from the dead, they will repent. But guess what? Oh, they're Sadducees. They do not believe in the resurrection. And so Abraham responds in the story, if they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't be convinced even if someone actually rises from the dead. Now hold on, there's more. Fast forward.

[A]

This is fire. I know. Listen, keep going.

[B]

Some people think it was two weeks after Luke 16, John 11 happens. Jesus goes to a man named Lazarus of Bethany and literally raises him from the dead. And what do the religious leaders do? They do not repent. They plot to kill him and Lazarus too. That's exactly what Abraham says, said it was happening, it was going to happen. Now we cannot say we're certainty. Obviously this is just one theory, but what some people would say that there are way too many coincidences. So if this is intentional, then this parable is also a public prophetic warning to the most powerful and corrupt religious family in Israel.

[A]

Bro, bro, I'm gonna, I'm gonna add another layer. So when you go to Caiaphas's house. I'm not gonna make a joke, Paul. When you go to Ky's house. So the parable specifically says, hey, this dude was right outside your gate. When you go to Ky's house, there is a gate right there. You walked. Actually, you're not supposed to go down there. Never mind, I'm gonna say you're not supposed to. The next time I'm supposed to go down there, there's a. There's literally a gate right there. Like right outside the courtyard of his house. That's nuts.

[B]

That's wild.

[A]

So like it could have been. That's right. That's the gate where every time he walked out of his house and this beggar dude was right there. It makes sense. It all fits.

[B]

He's saying that basically his whole point is religion without repentance is dangerous. Again, literally cost you your eternity.

[A]

Wow. Wow.

[B]

Jeez. So anyways, we need to keep going.

[A]

Yeah, let me do. Well, one. It just. It piggybacks. The last thing I want to point out is this guy, his big thing is like, okay, well, he's in hell. If you're ever asking what would somebody in hell say to you, you know the answer now, what they would say is, man, would you. Could I please. Would you please send somebody to tell them this thing's real and you don't need. Please don't go there. Because he's like, hey, go tell my brothers. So I will just say this, man, this happens every time. You know, Carlos, you're starting to preach a little more. Paul, you've been teaching the Bible for a minute. When you teach about hell, 100% of the time you get, people are like, oh, man, stop you on why. Let's do something encouraging, that kind of thing. No, no, because in eternity, nobody is going to be saying, man, I wish you talked less about hell now. Why did you have to hurt my feelings with all that Jesus teaching about, why did you have to do that? No one's going to be saying that. What there will be an eternity is millions or billions of people saying, you knew about this and you didn't do anything. You believed all this and you cared more about your church being full and everybody liking you on social media, everybody applauding you. What they're going to say is, you knew this and you didn't care about my eternity. So if you've ever wondered what somebody in hell would say to you, what they would say to you is, this is real. You don't want to go here. And you need to listen to the guy that's telling this parable about how not to go there. So I'll point this out, and then we're going to. Paul, I want you to hit these five views here. So what I love the Gospel of Luke is my favorite gospel. I like it because it's literally just. Just a guy with a one more writing a letter to help his one more meet Jesus. So if you go Back to Luke 1:1, he writes the whole letter. A guy named Theophilus. Fun fact, the name Theophilus. Theo means God, Phylus means friend of dude's name. It was apparently a very common Roman name. It's not a Christian name. Actually, it's a common Roman name. It means friend of God. Luke writes the whole book going, hey, man, you want to be a friend of God? I want to tell you who he is.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Let me tell you is. And then what he's telling me right here is one thing I want you to know is that hell is real, and real people go there. So what this ought to do for every Christian when we read this is what Satan wants to, like, anesthetize us to the reality of hell so that we will no longer have an urgency of evangelism to tell people about Jesus. So I'm going to finish this little section and then turn it to you. I'm going to read this quote from one of my favorite, favorite, actually probably my favorite preacher in church history, a guy named Charles Spurgeon. Here we go. Spurgeon wrote that. He said this in a sermon. Oh, my brothers and sisters in Christ, if sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them, imploring them to stay day and not madly to destroy themselves. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions. And let not one sinner go there unwarned and unprayed for. Go get you one more. Go get you one more.

[B]

Amen.

[C]

Yeah, before I hit those dudes, I. I. Sometimes it helps me to think about it. On my. On my phone I have clock function and there's actually a few different things you can do. One is a timer. And a timer counts down, down. And so I like to think of every person I'm interacting with, especially people who are unbelievers, is there's an invisible clock above their heads just counting down. And for some of us, it's a week, could be a month, could be a year, could be 70 years. But that clock is counting down. And then when it hit zero, it's over for their earthly life is what they've known it. I've heard someone say that at the end of the day, we're either living in the end of days or your days are going to end. That's right. It's one of two options. But then it goes from a Tiber to a stopwatch. And once I click a stopwatch, it just keeps going and going.

[A]

That's great.

[C]

And going. And so I think with that is the urgency is knowing that everybody has a clock that is counting down. And the thing is, it's even more urgent because I can't see what that clock says. We always assume it's going to be a long time, but for many it's not. And so to me, that drives me live with urgency because, hey, one day that clock is going to change and it's going to go a stopwatch on forever and ever and ever.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And I want them to be in a place of eternal joy, not eternal anguish. I just spurgeon. That quote hits me hard.

[A]

Hey, man, it's money. That's a money quote. All right, Paul, walk us through real quick. Because Christians, you know, there's been some, not a ton, but some division among Christians on different views of heaven, hell and the afterlife, especially for Catholics. Yes. So what I want you to do real quick is, dude, will you run through these four or five theological views and differentiate between them? And let's do this real quick.

[B]

Well, hey, Live Free Nation, Easter at Lake Point is coming and we would love to celebrate with you. So no matter where you're tuning in from, we would love for you to come and join us April 3rd through 5th for a powerful and uplifting service as we celebrate, celebrate the life changing truth that Jesus defeated the grave. Hey, this is a moment for the whole family to come and experience hope, purpose and the story that still changes lives today across all of our eight campuses in the DFW area. Come hang out and let's gather to explore who Jesus is and why his story still matters. Also, if you come and visit us for the very first time and you tell us you're coming from the podcast, we would love to hook you up with some Live Free mercy merch. Just find us in our first time guest tent and let us know. Hey, for service times and details, text the word Easter to 20411 and we will see you there.

[C]

You've kind of started to say this and I'll just, I'll finish it for you because you're kind of going there, which is I'm going to give the views. But the danger of me giving the views is that we could think this is like me giving an overview of views of the end times or views over Calvinism and Arminianism and a. It's actually had a lot of representation across church history. Actually when it comes to views of hell, there has been one utterly dominant view throughout church history.

[A]

Maybe until the last, until the last

[C]

50, maybe expanding maybe 200 years before that there was one dominant view. And that is because The Bible is extremely, extremely, extremely clear. And so when we're going through this, I think we have to remember that, that there are views, but two views that I'm going to give. Of the four have been condemned and are heresies. One is not a heresy, but it is major error. I'm going to save the fifth one, the Catholic view, which is kind of like in a sense like a pre Hell, or not even a pre Hell, but it's kind of almost a hell adjacent view. I'm going to save that one for last. So as I'm giving these, I think just to remember, like even I hear sometimes people tell, like today they'll call it the traditional view of hell.

[A]

I hate that. I don't like when people do that

[C]

because frankly, that's like me saying the traditional doctrine of the Trinity.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Or the traditional divinity of Jesus.

[A]

Let's just the doctrine of the Trinity.

[C]

And I say that not so people don't misunderstand me when I said that is I don't say that to say if you have the wrong view of hell, you're automatically going to hell. I say that because actually, for the first 1800 years of Christian history, there was more debate over the Trinity than there was over hell.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

There is more debate over the divinity of Jesus than there was over hell. Way more. And so I'm more just to say, hey, we got to remember, this has been the dominant view. And the dominant view is the first one I'm going to give. It's called eternal conscious torment, ECT for short. Really, this is the idea that all who don't repent and believe in Jesus suffer consciously. Forever eternal means that if endless, eternal, forever conscious means they're aware of it, they don't cease from existence and torment in the sense that it's suffering. Got tons of passages. Literally every every this passage, this passage, literally the passage literally coming out this passage. And every author in the New Testament talks about this future judgment. Every single one. In Matthew 25, Jesus, who talks about hell more than anyone, by the way, the only other person to use the word Gehenna. Gehenna is his brother. So Jesus is literally the only one who uses the word Gehenna, although everyone talks about this future judgment, he says this in Matthew 25. Then God will say to those on his left, depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteousness into eternal Life. In Revelation 20, which you referenced earlier about that punishment, the devil who had deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they were will be tormented day and night, forever and ever eternal. It's torment, it's conscious, it's suffering. And if anyone's name was not found in the written the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Second Thessalonians 2, 6, 7. This will be my last one. Then I'll go to the next few. God considers it just. I did this one because it's actually because people say, oh, hell makes God unjust. Actually, according to the Bible, hell is actually part of what makes God just not unjust. It says God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you. When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels and flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. So actually, according to scripture, hell is part of what makes God just, not what makes him unjust.

[A]

View one. Eternal conscious torment. That's the mainstream view that has been the near unanimous yes for church history. I will just say we did a whole react episode on this. You got guys like Kirk Cameron who I love, I love him and I think he's wrong. Who, you know, it's becoming a little more popular to question that view. So actually stick that in the show notes.

[B]

We will.

[A]

Yeah. So if you want to see a little react to do a nihilism. Can you do annihilationism next?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, I'll do that one next. So this one was. I was going to say this for last because view two would. I would not consider it a heresy. And I don't think you either. I would consider it, but it is a major error. Major error. And that is annihilation. Or it's also known as conditionalism. This one says all who don't repent and believe in Jesus are eventually destroyed and cease to exist. So most Christianists would say, hey, there is a hell. People go there who don't believe in Jesus, but once they have met the penalty that was due them if they stayed in hell one second longer, it would be unjust for that person to suffer infinitely for finite sins. They will simply cease to exist. Now I think a few things can be said historically, they this view is even rarer than Christian universalism.

[A]

Really?

[C]

Oh, way rare.

[A]

Honestly, didn't John Stott at the end of his life, become an annihilationist.

[B]

John Stot.

[A]

I was about to say, and if I understand this correctly, it's like a mainstream view in British evangelicalism. Yes. Which is not, by the way. That's not good. No, I actually would say that's part of the reason you got a little bit of weakness in the church over there. But that's a whole different conversation.

[C]

Brief history. It's funny, you got into exactly what I was going to get into in the first 3, 400 years. 3, 400. There's really only two explicit annihilationists we can find. One of them is a guy named Arnobius who literally, Jerome says, ah, but

[A]

a bunch of his ancestors named Hudson.

[B]

Really? I know you're a. Whoa.

[A]

Go ahead. I'm sorry.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

And so literally, Jerome warns me. He says he is read with prophet Bob Manny, but is not so much approved on account of his style or his opinions. So literally, like very, very few people do. And then it pretty much vanishes for almost 1400 years, comes back in heretical groups like the Sicinians, but then you have some fringe groups who adopted. And then in the 1800s, British people start writing on it in the Anglican tradition.

[A]

Oh, it's. It really metastasized in Britain, the evangelical side of it.

[C]

You had some fringe groups.

[B]

Charles Spurgeon was against this movement. Yeah, right.

[A]

Oh, Charles Spurgeon was not.

[B]

Obviously not. But I'm saying, like, during this time, so. Yeah, yes, right.

[C]

He had some friends, Seventh Day Adventists. But then starting in the 1800s with British English, and then additionally in the 1900s with British evangelicals, it became more of a thing. John Stott was like the watershed moment, which, by the way, love a lot of his stuff, Cross of Christ ever. But then, yeah, his was the big one that broke this all open. I like to tell people, in the grand scheme of things, this is extraordinarily rare, which obviously doesn't mean it's automatically wrong. But you do have to stop and ask if the same people for thousands of years read the same verses, but did not come to the same conclusions, and it wasn't just one little pocket, but literally Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, they all came to same conclusions. You have to stop and ask why now? What an annihilationist would do. And I want to do too much of this because I think you did a lot of this in that video, was they'll kind of say, well, hey, it really matters what we mean by destruction and by the idea of eternal. So they I read earlier from Thessalonians, they would say, ah, destruction. That means they cease to extend exist. Problem with that is that word is not usually used that way. When it's used in the New Testament, it's more like the idea of if I got in a wreck and I say, guys, my car was totally destroyed last night. You would not think, oh, Paul's car exists. No, you would think the idea of it came to a state of utter ruin. It was nothing like its former self kind of a thing. And also they would say, hey, eternal is really the idea of, hey, it is eternal and its effect that it's forever this way, or it's eternal in the sense of it belongs to the new age. Earlier when I read Matthew 25, it talks about some will go to eternal destruction, others to eternal life. People say, oh, eternal means the coming age. It actually can. And how long is that coming age is usually my response question to that kind of thing.

[A]

All right, so that's view two. View two, annihilationism. I will just say this to give a. Throw a bone to some of these guys. There's varying species within each of these views. So like annihilation, the reason that they call, and we hit this on the Kirk Hammond react episode, the reason Paul mentioned conditionalism, some of them will call it conditional mortality. And basically what they'll say is, hey, man, have you ever noticed this is what they'll say, hey, man. It says that the gift of God is eternal life. So their thing is, hey, your default mode is not to live for eternity. That's only a gift that God gives you when you trust Jesus. So eventually you just cease to exist. And a lot of them think that unbelievers go to the intermediate state, but then when they're cast into the lake of fire, they cease to exist. So anyway, that's view two, three. Yeah.

[C]

And the reason it's not as much of an error is that universal. Universalism, which. Well, there's two different views of universalism. We'll cover these next. These literally rewrite the entire gospel story. Yeah, annihilationism rewrites the nature of the punishment. So annihilationist would say, we believe in the punishment, just that it's everlasting torment. Still, I believe a major error, but it's not a heresy. All right, so two views that are heretical. One is what I would like to call a generic universalism. This idea of all are saved, regardless of Jesus. So, hey, whether you are. Are a Buddhist or a Muslim or a Hindu, whatever, as long as you're sincere, and as long as you're not Hitler, you're going to go to heaven. And who knows, maybe even Hitler is there too. Maybe he was given a second chance kind of a thing.

[B]

Love wins all, Rose.

[C]

Leave to God. Love wins all. That kind of stuff.

[A]

If you have ever. You have a liberal aunt and she used to go to the Unitarian Universalist Church. That's what this is. This is when you're like. Actually, it's funny. Jana and Eliana are in Boston. Boston. And Janet texted me. She was like, man, all the churches up here, they got pride flags on

[C]

them, intolerance bubble bumper stickers.

[A]

That's it. All they got pride flags on them. And they're all empty.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

So here's the deal. This is. This is the deal, man, is those churches, and when you stop believing in hell, the churches die. One reason is God removes his lampstand. Number two. The other reason is, very frankly, normal thinking people start going, now, wait, so, like, it actually doesn't really matter what I do. I don't really got to do this thing and I'm just going to end up in heaven. Well, then I'm. I'm going stay home, I think.

[C]

Yeah, I'm gonna do me. Yeah.

[A]

Well.

[C]

And like, the problem with this view is it's literally straight heresy.

[A]

Yeah, this is. This puts you. You're no longer, in a meaningful sense, a Christian anymore.

[C]

Acts 4:12 says, There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men, by which we must be saved. Go ahead.

[B]

Yeah, and just in one sense, just add to what you guys were saying. I mean, if you don't believe in hell, you don't understand the cross. Like if, like at the cross, Jesus experience abandonment, judgment, and separation from God, which is the essence of what hell is. And so, you know, we would say at the cross, Jesus took that punishment that we deserved. And the reasons Christians make it to heaven is not because we're good, it's because the penalty has been paid.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

So the. The John Stott would be an example of annihilationist universalism is a heresy. That. That was like Robbins Bell, like Rob Bell, popular Bible teacher when I was younger. Actually, if I understand this correct, like, actually went apostate, actually became tragically somebody be like, man, he's actually a heretic and wrote a book about this advocating for some form of essentially modified universalism.

[C]

And frankly, this is exactly what we just heard from Talarico in the months leading up to the election. Is literally, he says, oh, they all point to the God of love in some kind of a way. Like, this is generic universalism.

[A]

There you go.

[C]

Yeah, big time. There is a fourth, which would be called a Christian universalism. So generic universalism is the idea of all are saved regardless of Jesus. Christian universalism would say all are saved because of Jesus. So a Christian universalist would say, hey, it is Jesus's sacrifice that saves us. And they would also. Most Christian universalists would believe in a hell. They just believe that eventually it will be empty. So the idea is that if you have not placed your faith in Jesus, you go to hell, but you're giving chance after chance after chance to repent. Repent and believe in Jesus in hell. And eventually everybody will. So eventually hell will be empty. So like, they would appeal to. Well, it says, hey, God desires all to be saved. Well, if he desires all to be saved, well, then eventually they are going to be saved. Talks about how in Ephesians 1, all things in the fullness of time are going to be united in Christ. And this points to it. I mean, there's so many problems with this part of. We don't get any kind of idea of post mortem evangelism or post mortem repentance.

[B]

All right, Paul.

[A]

Eternal. Well, do we?

[C]

Do we. Are you going to go to first, Peter?

[A]

I'm going to throw one at you. So, so, so I'm going to throw. This is. These are the Bible verses that when you read them, every dude that's listening to this, I guarantee there was a moment in your life where you read this verse and you were like. And I'm going to use this word literally, you were like, what the hell? For real? Like, because actual. And I mean that literally. I'm going to throw two verses at you, Paul, to make it sound like. I mean, Paul, what are you talking about? There's no second chance. It's right here.

[C]

It's right here.

[A]

This is 1 Peter 3, 18.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And finally, for Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous, for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. In which. Paul, Paul. In which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight persons were brought safely through the water. So Paul, it just says it right there. Jesus went, wait, I'm going to do one more. I'm going to do one more, please. This says it right there, that Jesus went and preach the gospel of people who were dead and seems like they got a second chance. Paul, here's another one. 1 Peter 4:6. For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does. So what are you talking about, Paul? I know it's right there.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

People in hell get a second chance to hear it. What do you think?

[C]

I think I just changed my mind and now I'm a Christian universalist.

[A]

Actually, I'm just saying this podcast is over now.

[C]

We're all joking, everybody.

[B]

If you just.

[C]

If you're just tuning in right now. That's a joke. Yeah.

[A]

No, I would actually fire you, by the way.

[C]

As rightly you should. No, for real. I would have said that. As rightly you should.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, and the joke even that I was given there is. My first response would be, generally, how do we interpret the Bible? We interpret what is confusing by what is clear, not vice versa. So in other words, if a mound of evidence. Evidence points in one direction, and there is a mound of evidence here, Jesus talked about hell more than anyone else. And there's a lot of other passages in the New Testament as well. If the mound of evidence goes in one direction, if there's these others, we don't then immediately, like, write off all that other stuff. Instead, we say, hey, these are confusing. Let's slow down. And even if we have to live in confusion, we're going to give proper weight to what the amount of evidence does, not to these few verses.

[A]

So the principle, before you go on, the principle of biblical interpretation for all the listeners is we interpret unclear passages in light of clear passages. We do not reinterpret the clear passages in light of the unclear passage.

[C]

Exactly. Because even, like right here, if I'm

[A]

reading, by the way, that's what heretics always do.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Literally. You watch, we're going to show one at the end of this podcast. What heretics always do is they take unclear passages and they use them to get you to reinterpret all the clear passages. Once you see that pattern, you can't unsee it. It's everywhere.

[B]

That's great.

[C]

So you keep going 100%. So like, even, like with these, if I'm. If I'm reading this, that's what James Calvin. No, it is. If I'm reading this, I think, well, wait a second. Scripture also literally says that the people who Go to hell, are tormented day and night forever. So these things seem to be intention also. It seems like in Hebrews it says that it is appointed once for man to die, and then comes judgment. So I'm thinking of all these other verses. Okay, so then let me dive into this and say, okay, what are some possible scope of meaning? And typically there's actually been two or three different possible interpretations. That's another sign, by the way, if well respected scholars landed in a multitude of places and they all say, hey, we can't know for certain. Don't build a whole doctrine around what people say. We can't know for sure. And three broad views in terms of what people believe about this passage. One is that this is actually referring to how Christ preached through Noah to people in the time of Noah. That sounds really weird to people. But if you go back to First Peter one, it literally talks about how the spirit of Christ was active in Old Testament prophets and he was preaching through them to people in their time.

[A]

There you go.

[C]

So if he did it through the prophets, it also makes sense. Noah, who is in a sense kind of a prophet in his day, would do the same thing in his time. Also in 2nd Peter 2, 5 it says that Noah was a creature of righteousness. So one view is the idea that, hey, this is talking about how Noah is talking to people who now, by the way, are spirits in prison. So they're spirits in prison now.

[A]

But they weren't then.

[C]

But they weren't then. Exactly. Same thing with that Second Peter reference. The idea of, yeah, they're dead now, now, but at one point they weren't then a second, I think really plausible meaning is Christ proclaimed victory to fallen angels. Yeah, so this is the idea that often spirits is actually most often used not of human beings, but of non human beings, spiritual beings. And so this is the idea, especially if here he's referencing Genesis 6, which we got into a little bit last time with the Nephilim. Jude uses this language. Second Peter uses this language, talking about these spirits who were disobedient.

[A]

This right here is what I think.

[C]

Yeah. And so basically the view. No, no, go, go.

[A]

Basically the view is it's Jesus dunking on the people. Exactly. It's I'm him, I'm him. I'm dunking on your face like, I just conquered you and I want you. I'm a. I'm gonna tell you the gospel, which is evangelion. That's the good news of I have conquered sin, death and Satan.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

And I'm gonna Come exactly where you are, get right in your face and tell you I just. I just beat you.

[C]

So literally in Colossians talks about how through the cross, like Jesus leads these powers to open church shame. So it's basically him going into hell and saying, I won.

[A]

I won. What's up now? Like, how you like them apples? It.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

I actually watched it.

[D]

Really?

[C]

Before I get to point three, we got to know.

[B]

It's not your fault. It's not your fault.

[C]

Okay, before I actually hit 03, I know this a total sidebar. Was it good?

[B]

Yeah, I actually like that a lot.

[C]

You know, watch it with your kids around.

[B]

No, it was a great day night movie. I will say. Much better than Tombstone.

[A]

It's a great movie.

[B]

And, and I will say this, but I will say that the movie felt old, like I was just.

[A]

It was before hd.

[B]

That's why, you know, Ben Affleck and Matt Damon are super young. But yeah, it was. I like that a lot.

[A]

Come on, keep talking about hell.

[C]

Point three is, is the idea that Christ preached to the human dead. So he did descend to the day and he preached to the human dead, but not necessarily to give them a second chance. It's basically a variation of number two, which is he went to proclaim, hey, this is actually who I was. And really what happened, I would personally hold, and I think the majority of scholars, either number one or number two, or even to potentially both, that he preached both to the people in the days of Noah, through Noah, but then also he went down and descended not to suffer hell, but to actually proclaim his victory in hell.

[A]

So right now we've got four views. We've got eternal conscious torment. We've got annihilationism. We're going to draw a line right there and go, man, past this line. You're really veering outside of the realm of Christianity.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So then the third view would be generic universal. The fourth view, to recap, would be quote, unquote, Christian universalism. Not a good old deity. Don't like that. Don't like that. Now, this fifth view is essentially the Catholic view. This is a big question. Let's Paul talk about it. Hey, purgatory, why do people believe that? Is there biblical support for it? What do we think?

[C]

I like to tell people it's hell adjacent in the sense of this is actually a place for believers, but where believers go to, in a sense, still pay or to have their remaining sins purged. That's the idea of purgatory. It's purged from them so they can be fit to enter not into hell, but into heaven. So that's why I tell people it's hell adjacent in the sense of it's a place of. There's actually not a ton of details that Catholics will give around what the experience is like.

[A]

But there's a reason because there's not a single Bible verse about it.

[B]

That's why Catholics will probably disagree with you calling it hell adjacent.

[A]

Well, yeah, they'd be like, that's fair.

[B]

I'm glad you said that because, yeah, I'll let you explain it.

[C]

Protestant saying, but just go ahead.

[B]

Even the fact that we're putting in this category, I think Catholics would be

[C]

like, what are you doing? This is not related because that's not

[B]

how they see it.

[C]

Here's how the thinking goes is that when we die one day, even if we've walked with Jesus, we're not going to be perfect. So there's still some sanctification left. And before I can get into heaven, that sanctification has to happen according to Catholic thinking, not in accordance to what we think kind of a thing. And so there has to be a place of purging for your remaining sin. And to that we would say, absolutely not.

[A]

Not. It's insane. Absolutely. It's literally antithetical to the very heart of the gospel.

[C]

Now some people say, well, but if, if that's not the case, then there's no motivation to live holy lives and say, well, hey, number one, like because I love Jesus. And number two, which you've talked about before, there is this idea of eternal rewards based on my faithfulness or lack thereof.

[A]

Now so Paul, let's just be really clear. First of all, there is not a, not literally not one verse in your Bible, not one verse in your Bible that even alludes to the concept of purgatory. So where did it even come from?

[C]

This is based on. On the apocrypha. So really the only apocrypha or the

[A]

Deuterocan, the deuterocanonical books that are not in the correct Bible.

[C]

Protestants usually call it the apocrypha. Catholics would call it deuterocanonical. That means second canon because they were received later into the canon.

[A]

Yeah, but we're going to do a whole react episode on this Catholic Bible has seven books in it that should not. All caps. Should not. That's right. Be in there. And you're saying the purgatory doctrine is extracted from the deutero canonical books.

[C]

And by the way, before we do that video, in case There are some Catholic sisters like, wait a second, that's not true. I'm like the guy who originally translated the Vulgate, which you mentioned earlier, Jerome, he himself said that even though he included the men, they are not canon and inspired. So it's just something to think about for a while. All right, yeah. Second Maccabees, which is one of the seven books, 1245, says, therefore he made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin. So this verse with a few others just from the Apocrypha, is what Catholics would bank on. And also, again, just their reasoning of, hey, you're not sanctified yet, more has to happen.

[B]

So it's for safety people. And Catholic theology is for purgatory, is

[C]

for saved people only people only for

[B]

saved people only approach for their sins until they get to heaven.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Because no, they would say, no perfect people enter heaven.

[C]

Exactly. So to your point, we would say, hey, we don't believe this, number one, because the absence of any scripture whatsoever in the 66 books of the inspired Bible that point us at and because the presence of scripture that straight up contradicts it. So you got like Hebrews 9:27. Again, it is appointed once for man to die, and then after that comes judgment. Oh, not first you got to go to another place, and then you can enter into it. Luke 16:26. A great chasm has been fixed. So you have the idea of one man in the parable goes to one place and another to another place. 2nd Corinthians 5:8. To be away from the body is to beware at home with the Lord. The thief on the cross today will be with him paradise. That thief was terrible. You don't get crucified unless you're a really bad guy. So actually, when people hear thief like, this isn't like a guy who went into TJ Maxx and started stole something. He was like an insurrectionist who was probably killing people and doing some really, really bad things. Then finally, Hebrews 10:14. Actually, not finally. Hebrews 10:14 says, God has once or all perfected those who are being sanctified. So on the one hand, we're perfect in God's eyes. That's right, because we are in Christ. On the other hand, we're still being sanctified. But this brings us to the beautiful moment where it says in Corinthians that, sorry, in one John, when we see Jesus, we will become like him, for we will see him as he is. So my justification, my son, salvation is dependent upon Christ. My sanctification is dependent upon Christ and my glorification is dependent upon Christ.

[A]

Let me show you why this. Honestly, man, I got some wonderful Catholic friends. I love them, I believe I'll see them in heaven. That's a whole different conversation. This in particular is a bit, honestly, like a little bit of an enraging doctrine to me as a pastor. Let me show you why. Real quick turning. Will you toss that thing up there, bro? This is fascinating. Have you seen this, Paul? Dude, this is interesting. Interesting. So Ron Burge, great researcher, I follow on X, dude, literally of every religious segment in America, no one is more scared of dying than Catholics. So evangelical Protestants, that's us, we're team Protestant. Only 20% of us are scared of, are afraid or very afraid of dying, by the way. We shouldn't be. No, say man, listen, you're going to blink and then you're going to wake up and you're going to hug Jesus.

[B]

And by the way, we're going to celebrate that in a couple of weeks at Easter here.

[C]

Come on, come on, come on.

[B]

Whole celebration about it.

[A]

So it's only 20% atheists, like atheist agnostic, non religious people. It was 28% interesting, by far the most afraid of dying in America, Catholics at 39%. So here's, here's the big deal man, is it's the slam dunk on this thing. When Jesus hung on the cross and he pulled up on those nail pierced hands and feet, he did not cry. It is almost finished. He cried out, it is finished. Now leading up to Easter, we got to get this. There is something about that little phrase a lot of Christians don't understand about the words that Jesus had on the cross, like last words. So when he does that and he cries out, it is finished. That's a Greek translation of a, it's a English translation of a Greek word, tetelestai. Now this word, this is a great word. It was used in three, three ways. Number one, it was used like in a business, business sense for ancient receipts in New Testament Bible times to indicate that like a literal debt, this is important, had been paid in full, not in part. It had been paid in full. Two, tetelestai, it was used in a judicial context, like in a court when a sentence was fully served, not somewhat served, not completely once and for all fully served. And then three, the term tetelestai, it was used as a military term which literally means that a battle was completely won. It's a word of like triumph and victory. So just put all these together. And, and. And do the math in your head. So when Jesus hangs on the cross and he cries out, he does not cry out, it's almost finished. He cries out, it is finished. He was declaring in that one word that your sin debt is fully paid, the judgment for all your sin is fully served, and the spiritual war against sin, death, and Satan is completely and fully won.

[C]

Amen.

[A]

So in Christ, the work of salvation, victory, reconciliation, new life is fully yours. It is finished. Which is why we do not ever believe in something like a purgatory that kind of essentially says, well, it's almost finished. No, no, that's Jesus thing.

[B]

That's amazing, bro. That's powerful and honestly, like, you know, again, that's. That's what you believe. Believe changes how you behave, what. And what, what you expect in the future. And so there's. There's hope, isn't it? There's a. There's a big hope there, man. Somebody's listening to this right now, and they're like, but, yeah, but I still have some objections about hell.

[A]

Yeah, let. You want to rapid fire some of these objections. Let's rapid fire the objections.

[B]

So, Pastor Josh, I just can't wrap my mind around this. Hell feels unfair to me. How can a loving God send people to hell? Why would he be so cruel?

[A]

Yeah, okay, dude, let me just point this out. So, first of all, there is. There's something in that I had never seen for in my entire life until sermon prep this week. You read it, and it's kind of thing you'll read a million times and you didn't know you read it. All right, so this is this kind of. I love sermon prep. I love the Bible. So in Matthew 25, parable of sheep and the goats. Just make a little face when you realize where I'm going with this. Or you may, like me, have never realized this before. So Matthew 25, parable of sheep and goats. It's talking about the final judgment. So Jesus does the, hey, man, the sheep. You're going to go on my right. And now listen really close. You got to listen right really close. So this is what Jesus says to the sheep. Then the king will say to those on his right, come you who are blessed by my Father. Here it comes. Take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. Okay, now first we, like, oh, okay, cool. That's fine. All right. That's really cool. But then this is what people miss. If you watch what Jesus says a few verses later to the goats, that he's sending to eternity, eternal judgment. Listen really close to what he says. It's different. Then he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Bro, this is a big deal. God did not create hell originally with the intent of you, you and people ending up in hell. He created heaven. That was what he created hell heaven for. That's why at the beginning you have the people of God and the presence of God in the place of God. That's how the he originally, the intent was. Hey, man, this is the place for the devil and his angels. And let me just say this. The Bible's really clear. God does not want. He doesn't want anybody to go to hell. No, this is second Peter 3.

[C]

9.

[A]

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wishing anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Ezekiel 3:33. As surely as I live, declares the sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn. Turn from your evil ways. Why will you die, people of Israel? So here's a big idea, man. God loves you. He doesn't want you to go to hell. God loves you so much that it's like He. He hangs on a cross at the entrance of hell and he's telling every person that walks in, if you're going to go in, in there, you got to go over my dead body.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So that. That's the big thing. That there's a couple things I want to say on this. And then let me just shut her down. You guys can add something. The other thing I would say is what people do is here's what they say. Think about how the. The Fr. The qu. The objection's worded. How could a loving God send people to hell? Well, here's the deal, man. God's only characteristic, he's got more characteristics than one. What a lot of times people will do is, man, they'll say God is love. The Bible does say that. What the Bible doesn't say is that love is God. It does not say that. In fact, the characteristic that is most frequently and emphatically ascribed to God is not love is holiness. And holiness is separation from what is unrighteousness. Okay? So I think what I would say is to somebody that's like, hey man, it doesn't feel fair. Here's the big idea is that the. The judgment that someone Receives for their sin is not based on the significance of the action as much as it's based on the significance of the person the sin is committed against. So it's kind of the deal of like, hey, man, if I go kill a fly, no, no penalty. If I walk out and, you know, if I shoot somebody's dog, you know, they're going to send sentence you to community service or pay some kind of fine. You know, social media would not like that. They would not like that. You know, if I go and I. I shoot a person, hey, man, I could be convicted of manslaughter. I could spend, you know, whatever. If I walk into the White House and I try to assassinate the president, well, then you're going to be convicted for treason. You're. You're going to get the death penalty. Okay? So notice that, okay, there's one penalty for a gnat, different penalty for a cat, different penalty, penalty for the person, President of the United States. So we're seeing this. A sin against a lesser being deserves a lesser punishment. A sin against a greater being deserves a greater punishment. A sin against an eternal and perfect God. It deserves eternal and perfect punishment. Here's what drives me nuts. People don't have any problem saying that people convicted of a crime should go to jail, but they freak out when you talk about somebody that's guilty of a sin going to hell. This is justice, man. And let me just. Here's what really bothers me on this is, hey, man, if you want to talk about what's fair, let's talk about what's fair. Actually, hell is the place where everything's fair. Hell is where everyone gets exactly what they deserved.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

The place where everything is not fair is heaven, man. I lived a life full of sin, and I get eternity in bliss with Jesus Christ. Yes, that's not fair. So here's what bugs me is people all the time, they'll say things like, man, how could a good God send anybody to hell? Which, by the way, the question assumes you think everybody deserves heaven. Okay, you know what nobody has ever asked me in 30 years, whatever, when nobody's ever asked me is, man, I just don't understand how a just God could send me to heaven. Nobody ever says that, and that's tells you something. Okay? Now on this. Let's go. Let's. I want to go to the next objection, but I do want to. The no one has ever responded to this objection, in my opinion, better than R.C. sproul. So here's. I'm getting ready to show You. This is mind blowing, man. This is the best three minutes of. It's the best preaching clip on hell I have ever seen.

[C]

So this dude, then can I tie it back to your passage after we're done?

[A]

Oh, sure.

[C]

Come on, get going.

[A]

This dude, this is our R.C. sproul, who by the way, is hugging Jesus. Now, R.C. sproul ran a good race. This is good. This guy's unbelievable. Now he did this clip actually when he was actually getting kind of close to hugging Jesus and it blew up the Internet and it deserved it. So I want you to see the best, best three minutes of preaching on hell you will ever see. R.C.

[D]

sproul, do you ever wonder what people are doing who are in hell? Jesus doesn't describe every activity that takes place place there. But he does describe two responses of humans who have been consigned there where he says, in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Some people, when they wake up in hell, will be devastated. And they won't find enough water in their eyes to satisfy their need to weep. They'll be sobbing, oh no, not here. Oh God, please have mercy upon me. Be the greatest disappointment they could possibly experience to wake up in hell. But then the other group will be there, won't be weeping a bit. They'll be gnashing their teeth, which is a biblical metaphor for human fury. How dare you, God, put the here. The anger of the damned will know no bounds. I sure don't want to end up in Hell. One thing I know for sure, that if I do, if I've deceived myself all these years, and if I'm one who says, well, Lord, Lord, didn't I do this and didn't I do that? And he looks at me and said, please leave, I don't know you. And he sends me to hell. One thing I can promise you that I'll be a witness weeper, not a gnasher. Because if I know anything about theology, I know that if he sent me to hell tonight, I could make no just complaint against Him. I've been guilty of treason. Every time I have sinned, I have asserted my will over the will of my Creator. I have declared that I am sovereign, not the Lord God. I've worked against his kingdom, not for it. I've sinned against a holy and infinitely righteous being who owes me nothing.

[A]

Stop it now. Listen. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. That's it right there.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Amen.

[C]

You actually see part of that in Luke's 16. What most people, so many people miss about this passage is the rich man is in agony, but he is not in repentance. Because what does he do? He says, send Lazarus here to serve me. He still sees Lazarus is beneath him.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

So nothing's changed except his location.

[B]

And then he says, send him to my brothers.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

He's basically.

[C]

He's like, hey, I'm still the rich guy. I'm still the one in power. So he's in agony, but he's not in repentance. And so there's always this assumption that the people who go to hell don't want to go there. No, it's this idea of, like, I think it was. CS Lewis says there's really only two options. You either say, thy will be done to God, or God says, thy will be done to you. You are my enemy in your sin. If you want to stay that way forever, you can, and there's consequences for that. And to your point, God in his love, went and suffered the wrath of hell on the cross so that we wouldn't have to. And so that's the idea also, before we move on to the next objection, I tell people, God loves all people in some ways, but he loves some people in all always. So what I mean by that. There's this fancy term called common grace. Scripture talks about how the rain falls on the unrighteous and on the righteous. So he loves everyone because they're in his creation. By the way, that rain is undeserved because we have sinned. God, we don't deserve any good things. Like, literally, for unbelievers, this earth is as close as they'll ever come to heaven. So they receive good things from God here, and this is how he loves them. But Scripture says that he doesn't love all people in the same way. He loves his children in a different way and the same way. By the way, that's true of us. You and I are called to love each other in all these kinds of ways. But I love my kids and my wife in a special way. It's the same thing. God loves his kids in a special way. And guess what? We get the choice to your thing to repent and believe so we can become his children.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Obviously, this is very heavy. Somebody might be asking, but Pastor Josh, what about people who never heard the gospel?

[A]

Yeah, this is important, man. So first of all, honestly, the first thing I want to say may surprise you. How do you know that's honestly the first thing I want to say. How do you know? So we have examples all throughout the scriptures of Jesus Christ appearing to people in dreams of Jesus Christ doing miracles to reach somebody like Cornelius. How do you know? Yeah, so people do. Hey, man, the man on the island. I literally, I want to say, like, how do you know, man? How do you know Jesus didn't appear to that guy? In fact, we hit it two episodes ago. There's stories of the man in white appearing to faithful Muslim people all over the world, letting them know, like, hey, I'm the way that truth and life. How do you know? So that's number one, that a lot. A lot of people miss. Number two, let me just. Let's get. We're. We're going to rapid fire this thing real quick. Let's do a little theology really quick. Okay, so we're just going to go. What's the Bible say? It doesn't matter how you feel. Doesn't matter if you think it feels right. I'm just. What's the Bible say? Okay, so first of all, you got Romans 1:18. It's specifically answering your question. All right, so this. Romans 1:18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. Listen, really close. Verse 19. For what may be known about God is plain to them. He's talking about people who are not Christians. Now, you may be going, what do you mean? What do you mean? Because God has shown it to them. Question how. Verse 20. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature. Listen. Have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that that have been made. Listen. So they are without excuse.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So, number one, we saying, man, God has actually revealed himself in creation. Like, just look around, bro. Like, somebody made this. I'll also point this out. Sociologists point out there has never been a human civilization discovered in all of human history that did not have some religion, some form of the divine. Why do you think that is? Because it's obvious to everyone, everywhere. Somebody made this thing. So that's. Number one, there is. Revelations take place. Number two, Romans, chapter two, the very next chapter, starting in verse 12. Okay, well then how they going to be judged? They didn't know about Jesus. How they going to be judged? Romans 2 answers the question about. About this. Starting in verse 12. For all who ascend without the law will also perish without the law. And all who have sinned under the law, will be judged by the law. So what this is saying is this is another misconception about hell won't be the same for everybody. Like, it's going to be different if you're. I don't know. I don't know how to say it. If you're like, I don't know if you're some good, you know, relatively good dude, try to do the best. You know, rejected Jesus but tried to help people. Hell's going to be different for you than it was for. It's going to be for Jeffrey Epstein. So there's a. We could do this later, but there's a bunch of verses that talk about how there's degrees of punishment in hell. Well, how's that meted out? According to Romans 2, you're judged according to the knowledge you have. Well, that's true also for people who never heard about Jesus. I don't know how it's going to work out. I just know they're going to be judged according to the knowledge that they had. And then, last one is Romans 10 is one of the many verses. It just honestly makes. Makes it clear that very frankly, it doesn't matter why somebody did not end up in Christ. Everyone that's outside of Christ is not going to spend eternity with Jesus. We know this. Romans 10:14. But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? He's ass. You see what he's assuming. He's going, hey, man, you guys got. We got to send missionaries. We got to get out there. Have your one more cards. Because how are they going to call on somebody they didn't believe? How are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? How are they to hear without someone preaching? How are they to preach unless they are sent? All right, so. So you just, you got it right there. So then the last thing I would say to this is, hey, man, if God's the size of the Pacific Ocean, your mind's the size of a Coke can. You better expect there to be some things that don't fit. So at the end of the day, I'll lay my head on the pillow and sleep real good going. Hey, man, are there some things that I don't understand? Yes. But is God good, loving, just and fair? Yes. I'm a trust him to figure all that out.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Let's go to the next one.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Say, man, but Pastor Josh, I thought Jesus is about love and forgiveness. How does that fit with him?

[A]

We can do this real quick. Listen, Jesus is not your homeboy. Like, what some people do is they'll take one attribute of God and they'll just blow it up like it's the only aspect of God. And all of a sudden, Jesus is. Mr. Rogers was. Hey, man. Like, yeah, Jesus is really loving. Jesus is also so terrifying that when his best friend John says, saw him in Revelation, he. He fell down in a catatonic state as though dead. So, yes, he's a lamb. He's also a lion. So what you need to understand is, man, the first time Jesus came, he came as a lamb to keep people from going to hell. I'm going to say something that's got a bit. Bit of an edge to it. The second time he comes, he will come as a lion to send people there. This is Revelation 14. It's Revelation 20. In fact, if you. I just want to point this out. Oh, Jesus just. He's too loving. And forgiveness. He would never do that. Okay, well, actually, in Revelation 20, guess who is the person who sends everybody to hell?

[C]

Jesus.

[A]

Jesus. Yeah, go read Revelation 20. In fact, we were talking about this right before podcast. Revelation 14:10 says Jesus is the one who reigns over hell. Revelation 14:10. And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, if anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be. Listen. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb. So in one sense that I don't fully understand, Jesus is actually the one that is justly reigning over all of the judgment that is happening in hell. So, yes, he's a lamb. But, man, just make sure you understand who you're talking about when you're worshiping Jesus. Amen. Because he's going to come back on a war horse with a robe dipped in blood, a big tattoo on his thigh that says, king of Kings, sword out of his mouth and fire in his eyes. And he. And he's. That's terrifying. Yeah.

[B]

Those are the people that are gnashing their teeth at the person whom they rejected. Here's another one. Well, hell isn't real. Like, you know, it's actually a metaphor.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's actually symbolic. We have a quick video, unless you want to skip the video.

[A]

Oh, you want to do the Adam all red? Let's do it, man.

[B]

We can do. So there's A quick video that has gone fairly viral. Okay, go ahead.

[A]

Yeah, so let's set this up real quick. So this here's why we're going to finish the episode on this. This is the kind of thing, if you're a Christian, like, just normal, going to work, working a normal job, this is what you're going to get thrown at you. If you're a Christian who walks into your junior college religious examination survey course or the gender studies class at UT Austin, this is the type of thing you're going to get thrown at you, and people will just like this guy. You rarely see people so confidently say dumb things and listen. Again, I'll just go back to this. Sometimes people, I say people, things like that. People like, hey, Josh, you're being mean. We treat people who are refugees from the world different than we treat people who are apostles of the world. This guy, this went mega viral. This thing about hell in the afterlife right here. And this dude is teaching and seducing and deceiving people in ways that will impact their eternities. So, no, I'm not going to go super soft on that. So this is. Yeah. All right, so let me set this up. This is a dude named Adam Allred. He's every atheist favorite Christian. Let me just say this. If you're. If everyone who hates God likes you, you're doing it wrong. So when Jesus said to love your enemies, he said, love your enemies, he didn't say you weren't going to have any. In fact, what he said is, woe to you when all men speak well of you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So if you find yourself as a Christian, twisting and contorting scripture to try to make everybody like it. Hey, man, like, we're way off the rails. So let's just. We're going to walk through this real quick because this kind of thing, everybody gets thrown at them. And then we'll shut her down here. All right, so here we go. Add them all. Red.

[E]

If you think heaven is a place you go after you die, you've already missed the whole point of being alive.

[A]

Jesus said, if you think heaven is the place you go when you die, you've already missed the whole point. Okay, well, then Jesus missed the whole point, because Jesus is things. Like, today you will be with me in paradise. To a dude, like, when you die, that's where you go.

[B]

Sounds like a place.

[A]

Sounds like a place that you go when you die.

[C]

And the apostle Paul literally says, if the resurrection is real, we should be pitied. Above all people, it is only just this life, that we have hope in Christ. I'm pitied more than anybody.

[A]

The apostle Paul. My desire is to depart and be with Christ. For that is like when you find yourself, quote unquote, smarter than Jesus and Paul. We're doing it wrong.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Let's keep on. Let's keep going. Okay.

[E]

Kingdom of heaven is within you. He didn't say it's in the clouds. He didn't say it's coming someday in the future if you behave. He said it's within you right now.

[A]

Pause, pause, pause. Now, first of all, this is the kind of thing that it will, because he's mixing things that are true with things that are untrue. Okay? So first of all, he's saying Jesus said the. The kingdom of heaven is within you. That's not quite what Jesus said, but it's close. I'm going read the. The verse. Once, when being asked by Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, here it is. There it is. Because the kingdom of God is in your midst. That's what he's referring to. Now, what Jesus is doing here, this is a little theology. When you read your New Testament, you see the phrase kingdom of God. It's just talking about anywhere. The reign of Jesus is extending. Extended anywhere. Okay. So here's what the New Testament does, and this is a super theology nerd thing. There's a dude named George Ladd that coined the phrase inaugurated eschatology. And what he pointed out is the New Testament talks about the kingdom of God in terms of already and not yet. It's been inaugurated, so it's already, but it's not fully realized. So it's not yet. So you got both of these things. I'm not going to read all the verses here because, you know, I don't. Whatever it is. Yeah, you got both.

[B]

Yeah. He also said Jesus didn't say it's coming someday in the future. Revelation 20. The new heaven is coming down out of heaven from God. Like, it is coming.

[A]

That's literally what it. Literally.

[C]

Yeah. So it must be in the future.

[A]

I think. I think so. So here's the point, dude. What you got to watch is people will just say stuff.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And they'll be really confident. And they say it in a soothing, masculine voice. And you're like, oh, man, it sounds very wise. Claiming to be wise. They became fools, Right? All right, here we go. Let's keep going.

[E]

Which means heaven isn't a destination, it's a decision. We create heaven or hell in real time by how we act, how we think, how we live, how we love. And one of the greatest traps of religion and one of the most subtle poisons of culture is the idea that heaven is somewhere out there in the sky in the future after we die, or when some second coming finally arrives and sets things right. But what if that very idea is the thing that is keeping you from being the most powerful version of yourself right now?

[C]

What if.

[A]

Wait, wait, do the next sentence.

[E]

The second coming isn't an event, but a metaphor. It's you rising from the deadness of your own apathy.

[A]

Okay, first of all, he's literally. That's literally the exact false teaching the apostle Paul rebukes in 2 Timothy 2. So he said, hey man, what if the second coming isn't an event? It's a metaphor. I'm just going to read a Bible verse, 2 Timothy 2. Paul says, Avoid godless chatter. Heads up. There's a lot of reels that you're watching for everybody listening. There's a lot of reels that you're watching and TikTok little segments that you're watching that are godless chatter. That is godless chatter. So here's what he goes. Because those who indulge in it will become more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Case in point, that went mega viral among them. And he just calls out these two false teachers by name. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus who have departed from the truth. Watch, watch what they. How do they depart from the truth? Watch this. They say that the resurrection, AKA second coming has already taken place. In other words, it's already happened in the, in the salvation that you experience. A metaphor is what they were saying. And they destroy the faith of some. He's literally this thing about mega viral. He's literally committing the exact heresy, the exact false teaching. Paul's rebuking in second Timothy. The other thing I just want to say real quick, and then if you guys got any context, we can do it now. Let's move on. So, dude, he says, essentially he pulls a Karl Marx where he. This is what he does, what he's doing. He's. Hey man, you know, you know, this whole religion, heaven and hell thing, what if it's keeping you from becoming the most powerful version of yourself? You need to be the kind of man, if this is all I got got. So that's repackaged. Marx, Karl Marx was the religion is the opiate of the masses. I just want to point this out. We need to do a whole episode on Karl Marx at some point. Let me point this out. Karl Marx was like a horrible, awful man. Oh yeah, A horrible, awful man. Refused to bathe, refused to ever work or provide for his family. Made his friend Friedrich Engels pay for his whole life. So if you start going, man, I wonder, Karl Marx, communism, socialism, man, I wonder why he really, really wanted to. To set up a government where everybody else paid for, for. For people who don't work. Because dude literally never worked. He lived with his mom for part of his life, if I understand this correctly. And he made his buddy Friedrich Engels pay for his entire life. He either slept with or raped one of his servants, got her pregnant, and then refused to father the child. And not one, but two. Both of his daughters committed suicide. That's car. That's. That's Karl Marx. Now let's go back to the original. That's the dude who said, you know what? Religion is the op to the masses. Well, you look at Karl Marx's life, it seems like irreligion was the op of the masses because it convinced a guy. It really actually doesn't matter how I live at all because there's no coming judgment. So what this guy says is, he's like, ah, you need to ask yourself what kind of man I choose to be. If this is all I got, a better question would be, what beliefs will compel you to be a. A good, righteous and loving man that uses his strength for a purpose greater than himself?

[C]

Amen.

[A]

That's the question you need to be asking.

[C]

And even just if you think, historically speaking, if you want to go find places that were the most like hell on earth, go find the places that didn't believe in a hell after earth.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

In places that are built on more social, socialistic, communistic ideology where there was no God. Those were the places that if you went there, it was like living in hell on earth. So historically, that may sound cool and vibey on a, on. On a real something like that. It is just divorced from historical reality of how the world has actually worked.

[A]

That's exactly right. Let's keep going.

[E]

I had a conversation with my sister once. I said, you know, for all the fear that people have of atheism, there's something actually freeing in it. And I'm a believer, but if there's no reward waiting for me after this, real quick.

[A]

So here's all right here, watch this. Dude. If you here's your red flag. Oh, man. This is not somebody I should look. Listen to. If you start noticing that if somebody. This James Tal Rico does the same thing. If you start noticing that somebody claims to be a Christian, but everything they say hates Christianity. Bingo. Like, there's your flashing light. He's like, hey, man, so what this news doing is I'm a believer, but really the atheists got it right. Like, James Talrico did the exact same thing in like, three different clips. You know, I'm a Christian, but really, the Muslims and the atheists, they really act more world Christ. Like, it's like that's what every progressive Christian. It's really just somebody that calls themselves a Christian that hates Christianity. That's what this dude's doing. Keep going.

[E]

No gold stars from God, no mansion in the sky. Then I have to face the real question right now. What kind of man do I choose to be if this is all I got? Not what religion expects, not what culture demands, not what my family wants.

[A]

Pause. I just want to. That's great, actually. Good, good. That's right. It does not matter what the people around you, what you, what your family. I just want to point this out. Props. Correct. Why? Because Jesus Christ will judge you and no one else. It does not matter if you came from a Christian family. You're not going to be judged by your family. You're going to be judged by you. What did you do with Jesus? God didn't save last names. He saves first names. So props. I like that. Let's keep going.

[E]

But what I decide in full awareness right now, God gave us a canvas. What we paint on it is up to us. You want to wait for heaven or do you want to build it? He gave you breath. He gave you the will. He gave you the divine spark to observe, assign meaning and create. That's what God does. And he gave us the same power. So stop wasting your time waiting for some reward. Stop pining away your power for some cosmic carrot in the sky.

[A]

Yeah. Pause. I just want to. Again. You always just got. What's the word say, literally. Jesus is constantly like, hey, behold, I am coming soon, and I'm bringing my rewards with me. And I want you to work real hard to get some, because I'm excited to give them out. And then this dude comes along with a very sophisticated Instagram reel. He's all of a sudden smarter than Jesus. Let's keep going.

[E]

Heaven is within you right now. So act like it, create it, Live like it.

[A]

Okay, I just have one response to this, Mr. Madison, what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on you. No, we're obviously joking. Yes, but for real, you should ignore everything that says.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man. Pastor Josh, would you pray for us?

[A]

I might have Paul do it.

[B]

Pastor Paul,

[C]

We just stop now and we confess that you are a God that is infinitely loving and infinitely just and infinitely holy. That you care about this world now, but you also care about the world, world to come. And Lord, you look down and even though this world you created was perfect, we rebelled against you and we screwed it up. And God, you could have just left us for our own. You would have not have been unjust to let every single one of us go to hell, but instead you sent your son and Jesus, you came and you lived a perfect life we couldn't live. And yet you suffered the horrors of hell through your sufferings and ultimately your death on a cross to save us from hell. We just up and we thank you for that. God, I want to pray that the reality of. Of hell would come just home to us in a real way. Number one, for those of us who are already believers, would you, Lord, let it be a source of gratitude, of just a recognition of what you saved us from, but would you also use it to drive an urgency in us? Because, Lord, you want to save others as well. That, Lord, at the end of the day, every person we're interacting with, they have an invisible timer that is counting down their lives. And then the stopwatch of eternity goes on forever and ever. And if they do not know you, they will be away from you for eternity. Lord, let that be a weight and an urgency to compel here in this world. That's right, to seek and save the loss, just like you came to do so, Lord, would you do that? And, God, I want to pray that with this and with all things, would you you give us discerning minds, Lord, to be aware of when people are saying things that are partly true or almost true? Would you help us discern truth from error so that we could live lives and think thoughts that are glorifying to you is your name we pray. Amen.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Amen. Live free, brother.

[A]

Live free.

[C]

Live free.

[D]

Sam.