How is Empathy Weaponized to Manipulate You?! (ft. Allie Beth Stuckey) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary

Live Free with Josh Howerton – Lakepointe Church

Episode: "How is Empathy Weaponized to Manipulate You?! (ft. Allie Beth Stuckey)"
Date: February 9, 2026
Guests: Allie Beth Stuckey (host of "Relatable")
Hosts: Pastor Josh Howerton, Carlos Laroso, Paul C.

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the idea of "toxic empathy"—how empathy, when misapplied, can lead to the affirmation of sin, the validation of lies, and the support of destructive policies. The discussion is sparked by recent public criticism of Allie Beth Stuckey, particularly a hit piece by Hillary Clinton regarding her stance on empathy and public policy. The hosts also address important theological questions, including the place of the Jewish people in salvation history, biblical stewardship, the nature of gospel teachings on wealth, and the dangers of conflating popularity with anointing. Practical and cultural issues (such as immigration, abortion, and gender) are examined through a Christian lens.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Lighthearted Banter ([00:00–10:00])

• Opening salvo: Notable early quotes about empathy, popularity gospel, and God's faithfulness underline the episode’s main themes.
• Burger Wars: The team jokingly debates Whataburger vs. In-N-Out vs. Shake Shack vs. Cookout, including a blind taste test.
  "[Blind taste test]... you accidentally threw your beloved Whataburger under the bus." – Paul C. ([09:04])
• Transition: Segues from light banter about food to the "deeper stuff"—Bible, theology, and culture.

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2. Stewardship, Eschatology, and Reigning with Christ ([11:30–25:00])

• Luke 19 Parable Discussion: Pastor Josh explains the Parable of the Ten Minas and its deeper theological meanings, contrasting popular misunderstanding with a Christ-centered interpretation.
• Inaugurated Eschatology:
  "Churches are quote, outposts of the kingdom... Whenever you walk into a church, that's an outpost, it's an embassy of the kingdom of God, and the laws of the kingdom of God apply there." – Josh Howerton ([12:36])
• Reigning with Christ: Explores the biblical teaching that believers will reign with Christ in the new creation (Rev 20, 2 Tim 2, 1 Cor 6).
• Genesis and New Creation Parallels:
  “The book of Romans calls Jesus the second Adam... How he created in the beginning was through breath. How he does new creation in the new covenant is through breath.” – Josh Howerton ([18:04])
• Historical Fulfillment: Detailed historical context of Jesus' prophecy regarding Jerusalem and the Temple, its fulfillment in A.D. 70, and its apologetic impact.
  "If what he said would happen, did happen. Here's good news—what he said will happen is going to happen. Come quickly, Lord Jesus." – Josh Howerton ([24:52])

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3. Salvation, Jewish People, and Theological Clarification ([25:00–43:00])

• Romans 11 Explained:
  "[Romans 11] says, Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in... And in this way, all Israel will be saved." – Josh Howerton ([32:53])
• Are Jews Saved Without Faith in Jesus?
  “No one, I repeat, no one is saved by their ethnicity or by their sincerity, but by their faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God.” – Paul C. ([34:01])
• Old Testament Salvation: Faith in the Messianic promise—not works or mere ethnicity—always lay at the heart of salvation history (Hebrews, Galatians, John 8).

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4. False Gospels: Prosperity, Poverty, Productivity, Provision, Presence, and Popularity ([43:11–51:03])

• Prosperity Gospel: Promises of material return for giving—critiqued as producing users of God, not lovers of God.
• Poverty Gospel: Equating material lack with godliness—also rejected as a distortion.
• Productivity & Provision Gospels: Diligence generally brings provision; God is a good Father who delights in giving to His children.
• Popularity Gospel:
  “The popularity gospel will basically tell you that the more popular you are, the more anointed you must be… but the gospel says, you seek to be faithful.” – Carlos Laroso ([48:35])

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5. Tithing: Mandate and Principle ([51:04–57:27])

• Biblical Principle of Firsts:
  “I just call it the principle of the first... God is first... He just wants you to return the first tenth of everything He’s entrusted to you back to Him.” – Josh Howerton ([51:21])
• Personal Testimony: Josh shares his early marital struggles, tracking God’s faithfulness in provision as they tithed on a tiny budget.
• Heart of Faith:
  "You will never—no one will ever convince me that my God is not faithful to provide for his kids when they walk by faith with Him." – Josh Howerton ([57:15])

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FEATURED SEGMENT: Allie Beth Stuckey Interview

(Begins [58:53])

6. Empathy as a Weapon: The Hillary Clinton Piece & Public Controversy

• Context: Hillary Clinton criticized Allie Beth Stuckey’s “toxic empathy” stance in The Atlantic, provoking both a social media and political firestorm.

• Allie’s Summary:
  “Empathy becomes toxic when it leads you to do three things: affirm sin, validate lies, or support destructive policies.” – Allie Beth Stuckey ([00:00], [69:15])

• Response to Clinton: Allie clarifies that her critique was about empathy being misused in support of gender ideology—specifically, the case of “trans kids”—not about empathy itself.

• Examples of Toxic Empathy:

  • Gender Ideology: Affirming a child's confusion about sex/gender leads to lies and harmful interventions.
  • Abortion: Compassion for a rape victim should not lead to support for abortion.
  • Immigration: Compassion for one party cannot erase the rights, safety, or justice owed to others affected by illegal entry or crime.

• Selective Empathy:
  "The higher you rate on empathy, the crueler you are to those outside your group... When you name something, when you show people this is bait, this is not real, they’re not going to latch onto the hook." – Allie Beth Stuckey ([74:26], referencing Paul Bloom)

  Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Manipulation By Empathy:
  "They don’t want you to think your way through things, they want you to feel your way through things." – Josh Howerton ([75:27]) "Empathy, when misapplied, blinds you to reality and morality." – Allie Beth Stuckey ([76:02])

• Strategic Weaponization:
  "As long as progressives can convince women that the images... are real examples of where their compassion needs to be pulled, they can effectively persuade them." – Allie Beth Stuckey ([73:34])

• Christian Clarity:
  “At some point you’ll face a choice: does the word of God stand in authority over your feelings or do your feelings stand in authority over the word of God?” – Josh Howerton ([87:03])

• Final Encouragement:
  "I actually want [Christians] to have softer hearts towards the people who are truly vulnerable… Expand your compassion—but then do not be led by your feeling. What does the Bible say?" – Allie Beth Stuckey ([85:53])

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• 00:00 – Allie Beth sets out her toxic empathy framework.
• 17:14 – Discussion of what it means to “reign with Christ.”
• 24:52 – Jesus’ prophecy of the Temple’s destruction and its fulfillment.
• 32:53 – What is the future for Jewish people in God’s salvation plan?
• 34:01 – Are religious Jews saved? Paul C.’s definitive biblical answer.
• 43:11 – False gospels explained: Prosperity, Poverty, Productivity, etc.
• 48:35 – Popularity gospel and critique of seeking influence vs. faithfulness.
• 51:21 – The biblical principle of tithing and God’s economic faithfulness.
• 58:53 – Introduction and background to Allie Beth Stuckey’s segment.
• 69:15 – Clear definition of "toxic empathy" ("affirm sin, validate lies, support destructive policies")
• 74:26, 75:27, 76:02 – Empathy as a weapon; pathos vs. logos.
• 85:53 – The call to robust, biblical compassion and discernment.

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Conclusion

• The episode challenges listeners to discern when empathy is manipulated for anti-biblical ends, to root their responses in Scripture rather than emotion, and to pursue faithfulness over popularity or cultural approval.
• Listeners are exhorted to think critically, verify narratives, and always filter their compassion through biblical principles—not manipulated feelings.
• Allie Beth’s contributions clarify that true Christian compassion considers all who are vulnerable—not just those cast into the spotlight by emotional or political manipulation.

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For More:

• Listen to Allie Beth Stuckey's "Relatable" podcast, especially with daughters.
• Read Romans 9–11 for a deeper biblical understanding of Israel’s place in salvation history.
• Reflect on personal stewardship, giving, and the motivations behind them—seek faithfulness and trust in God’s provision.
• Be vigilant: “Gird up the loins of your mind” (1 Peter) when engaging with emotionally charged news or debates.

Transcript

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Empathy becomes toxic when it leads you to do three things that's affirm sin, validate lies, or support destructive policies.

[Carlos Laroso]

The popularity gospel will basically tell you that the more popular you are, the more anointed you must be.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

No one will ever convince me that my God is not faithful to provide for his kids when they walk by faith with him.

[Paul C]

No one is saved by their ethnicity or by their sincerity, but by their faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the son of God.

[Carlos Laroso]

Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the live free podcast. My name is Carlos laroso and I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton and chat G, Paul C. Hey, hey.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Vamos, petier este cerdo.

[Carlos Laroso]

Almost there.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What did I say?

[Carlos Laroso]

You meant to say vamosa.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Is this. That's right, man.

[Carlos Laroso]

We just believe in from Spanish to Italian real quick.

[Paul C]

We just traveled around the world. It was awesome.

[Carlos Laroso]

Hey, man. Coming to you from Lakewood Church in Dallas, Texas. Today, we're going to have a great episode. We're going to have Ali Beth Stuckey from the show Relatable join us later in a bit.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It's coming on, man. We're going to ask her why Hillary Clinton wrote a hit piece about her this week. It's going to be amazing.

[Carlos Laroso]

It's going to be a great conversation.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So essentially, we're having Hillary Clinton join the podcast by proxy.

[Carlos Laroso]

That's right. That's exactly how it works.

[Paul C]

Hey, Jason. Hillary Clinton.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, none of us are suicidal.

[Carlos Laroso]

If you get it, you get it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Come on, man.

[Carlos Laroso]

If you get it, you get it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It's a joke. I can tell both of you were like, that's funny, but can we laugh?

[Carlos Laroso]

We're also going to go. We're going to ask the question, sound.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Mind and able body are Jewish people.

[Paul C]

I'm with you.

[Carlos Laroso]

That do not believe in Jesus, but faithfully practice Judaism. Are they saved?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Pastor, we are going to answer that question. That is a very common question.

[Carlos Laroso]

Is also. I also want to know, is tithing a biblical mandate? Bro, the Internet's going to go crazy for this one.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

A mega church pastor will respond. This is a filthy mega church pastor.

[Carlos Laroso]

Will you preach on money?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We'll get to this.

[Carlos Laroso]

Okay, great.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, look. Pop quiz. What percent of Jesus teaching was about money stewardship or giving?

[Carlos Laroso]

I have a number. He probably. I'm going to go 25%.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You're high.

[Paul C]

I'm going to go 24. Then I'm going to go 18%.

[Carlos Laroso]

Hey, last week, Josh, Paul, he said that he had never tried a whataburger burger. Oh, okay, wait, hold on. And so when I heard that, you know, I said, I made it clear that I'm an in and out kind of guy. Hey, hold on. We're gonna talk about this at some point. But he, you know, he should have whataburger. So I felt the pastoral slash moral obligation to fix that. So I took Paul.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You took Paul to one of them?

[Carlos Laroso]

That's right. So I have a photo to prove that. Trinity. Look at that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And Jason's in there too. Look at the Howard team.

[Paul C]

Look at how happy he is evaporating off my life as I'm eating that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

He does.

[Carlos Laroso]

He looks really happy.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

He just looks so happy.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Paul.

[Carlos Laroso]

Paul, what did you think?

[Paul C]

It was fine.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Are you kidding?

[Paul C]

Okay, so here a couple things. So number one, it's kind of like the Waffle House of like burger places, right?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And I consider that a high compliment.

[Paul C]

I was about to say. I'm not saying that's a slam. I like that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Have you heard the thing that Waffle House is Southern hibachi.

[Paul C]

That's perfection.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's awesome.

[Paul C]

If only they would, like, in the time they flip the shrimp into your mouth, if they can do that, like with a hash brown or a piece of bacon would be fantastic.

[Carlos Laroso]

Josh.

[Paul C]

I'm never gonna get that image out of my head.

[Carlos Laroso]

Obviously, we know where you stand on the In N Out slash Whataburger.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm for the one that's from Texas, not California.

[Paul C]

And so here's the thing. It was fine. Here's the thing, it was bad. I actually got burgers. I got a bacon cheeseburger. You said basically go basic, so I was like, let me go basic. I got a bacon cheeseburger and then I got something called the Monterey. I only could eat half of both, cuz they're massive. Monterey was great. I was actually. Man, I'd go back and get that. The bacon cheeseburger, I mean, it's fin. It's like eating a bigger Wendy's thing.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

How dare you? I mean, did you try the. Did you. We need to talk about the Bible here.

[Paul C]

Oh, we will.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Did you. Did you try the spicy ketchup?

[Paul C]

I did. It's fine.

[Carlos Laroso]

I did not.

[Paul C]

I should have. But here's the deal.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

They don't do spicy in El Salvador.

[Carlos Laroso]

Do they not? It's not a thing. Yeah, yeah, but you know, we do, but it's just not a thing.

[Paul C]

Yeah. So I knew the first question you'd ask and the first question everybody asked. So what did you think was better? Whataburger in and out. And I'm just going to be honest. I really don't see much of a difference. And if people weren't biased, I don't.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We just lost, like, 100,000 subscribers.

[Paul C]

Because I was like, for the record, I'm more of a Shake Shack guy.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And my brother worked at Shake Shack.

[Paul C]

I like Shake Shack. And then for our people that are from the Southeast, you'll get this. I think the really best one that's more regional is a little place called Cookout. Cookout, to me, is the absolute best. Anyways, my point is, I actually want to prove it, if you don't mind conducting an experiment with me.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What is happening? What is legit? What is it?

[Paul C]

Because I really feel like if people were honest, they couldn't just tell the difference based on taste.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Oh, dude.

[Paul C]

So we have.

[Carlos Laroso]

Don't.

[Paul C]

Don't bring it out quite yet. You can bring out the blindfold. So I have an in and out whataburger behind me.

[Carlos Laroso]

I do.

[Paul C]

I do, bro.

[Carlos Laroso]

This is fancy, by the way.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So in a second. Real fancy. I asked for a blindfold, and I got a question.

[Carlos Laroso]

I don't even know what this is.

[Paul C]

My admin, Nina. She's the. She does whatever it takes. She goes above and beyond. So she didn't just get you a blind vote. She's like, you may fall asleep when you're doing this test.

[Carlos Laroso]

Here you go.

[Paul C]

Okay, so we're gonna give you a burger. Now, I did find out you're not a vegetables guy, so, Carlos, we're gonna have to take the vegetables off.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

No, I don't do vegetables.

[Paul C]

So we'll have to take them off. So here's what we're gonna do. You're allowed to hold the burger with one hand. You can't, like, feel around it or anything like that. You just gotta hold it, like, really simply and just take a bite. And we're gonna have you take a bite of each. We're not gonna show you anything. And then you're gonna have to tell us first which was better. So just objectively, which burger was the better bite? And then we're gonna ask you to gu.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Object to the methodology. All right. Hey, hey, hey. Well, let me ask something. Let me ask something.

[Paul C]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Are you guys gonna try to juke me and give me two in and out?

[Paul C]

I thought about it. I thought, that's the George Costanza. You know, we're not gonna do this method. I'm not gonna do that. I thought about it, but I'm like, that's just devious. That's wrong. Okay, so we're gonna do this. We'll try to do this fast to save us some time. All right?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So we have the Bible to talk.

[Paul C]

We do have the Bible.

[Carlos Laroso]

Get rid of the.

[Paul C]

Yeah, let me get rid of.

[Carlos Laroso]

Hey, by the way, Paul's touching it. So if you get sick, Josh, I'm.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm not very germ.

[Carlos Laroso]

Okay, okay.

[Paul C]

Oh, wow.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Here.

[Paul C]

Yeah, that's. There you go. Just do the edge. So I'm gonna hand it to you. Yeah, I'm holding the back end of it. Wait, so don't eat the back end of it. You're holding it actually here. Like, just grab it and take a bite out, bro.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

If you guys do. If you guys. I can. I already know this.

[Paul C]

You're feeling around it. All right. Take a bite. I feel like he cheated a little bit right there.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Is there anything for real? Are you messing with?

[Carlos Laroso]

There's no point.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There's nothing on it.

[Carlos Laroso]

That's a real burger.

[Paul C]

I don't like mustard.

[Carlos Laroso]

That's a real burger.

[Paul C]

Okay. Okay.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What is on? Is there anything on this?

[Paul C]

No, we took it all off. You said you didn't.

[Carlos Laroso]

Bro, that's like a normal order of whataburger.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Horrible. This is. There's nothing on this.

[Carlos Laroso]

That's a normal waterburger since I was 4. Oh, I guess I shouldn't have said that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What'd you say?

[Carlos Laroso]

Nothing, nothing. Don't worry about it. Okay. No, you're good. Okay. You're good.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Take that away.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

This.

[Carlos Laroso]

This proves my belief. This only confirms my belief.

[Paul C]

The other burger. This has cheese on it, so that's.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

A little bit better.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well, you didn't even do apples to apples. We did.

[Carlos Laroso]

We did. Go ahead, try that one.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, for real, you're punk. I can tell from your tone of voice you're punk.

[Carlos Laroso]

No, you're good. Go ahead and grab the. Grab a bite.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What are you doing to me?

[Carlos Laroso]

Which one's better? Reality hits you hard.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What are you doing?

[Paul C]

Which one's better? Are they both the same or which one is better? First or second?

[Carlos Laroso]

It's time to decide which one's better.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well, but the second one had cheese on it.

[Paul C]

Okay, taking the cheese off. Just besides that.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

The second one was better because it had cheese on it.

[Carlos Laroso]

Oh, look at that.

[Paul C]

Qualification. All right, Pastor, you can take the burger. I hate to break it to your. But you're holding it in and out burger right now. Now, I did not mean for that to happen because I think they're both eating.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

The first one was waterburger. Okay.

[Paul C]

Yes. The first one was.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So you spiked the test by putting cheese on the in and out burger.

[Paul C]

I. I thought they were the same. I'm crying over here because part because I'm looking with you, that mask on your face.

[Carlos Laroso]

I think you just like if you know they only have cheeseburgers and then on Whataburger you have to ask for cheese to be added on it.

[Paul C]

So I'll give you a redeeming moment because you just accidentally trashed whataburger was saying it's the worst thing you've had since you're like four. I will say is the burger with.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Nothing on it to give you some.

[Paul C]

Credence and to move this along. I will say that was. I will say looking back, I did not mean it that way. We kind of did kind of lead you a little bit unloaded. You know, again, I'm just more of. I think they're just both okay.

[Carlos Laroso]

They're just keep this consolation price.

[Paul C]

But that being said said, you know, we. We're doing some Spotify hat giveaways. I want, I want to give you some love right now because I feel like we put you on the spot and and you accidentally threw your beloved water burger under the bus. So we are giving away hats. And one of the things that one person wrote and I think we actually going to have on the screen because you know there's some controversy over the arm wrestling competition and that maybe you had kind of loaded up.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Listen, I'll do it right now.

[Paul C]

You were having too Mitch create team. But there was someone who wrote in to defend you. This is Mike Barnack, who we're going to give a hat to this week. He said, josh, I'm with you, bro. Just because a 5, 8 dude beats a 6, 3 dude doesn't mean he's taking something. It just means he was a better man that day.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

But I do check.

[Paul C]

But we just got to redeem it a little bit.

[Carlos Laroso]

Is he the winner of the.

[Paul C]

He is the winner of us along a little bit. And also just say, hey, we kind of put you on the spot there. Let's redeem it. And fine.

[Carlos Laroso]

Because we're having this conversation to this week's giveaway comment. Whataburger or in and out below on YouTube or Spotify. Be honest, which one is better? Pastor Josh already told us which one's better. And so. I'm kidding. And so. And we have another winner as well. John Foxwell, 11 from YouTube. Hey, thanks for participating.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I also just want to say. And then let's Start talking about the Bible. I do just want to point out the guy that thinks in and out is on the same level as Whataburger just moved here from the Pacific Northwest. And I just need to clear, clearly state this for the public.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes.

[Paul C]

Although I will say we don't have time for this, but when we're off, when we're off camera off air, I'll describe to you just his experience there yesterday. It was.

[Carlos Laroso]

That's a different part. We, bro, we got. We got to get to the Bible. We got to get to the Bible.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We have things to talk about.

[Carlos Laroso]

Hey, also, shout out to, like, if you're a part of the LI Nation and you come visit us in person to any of our physical locations, come say hi. We have a gift for you this week. Trinity. Can you pull that real quick? We had Eric and Anna fly in from London.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, we did.

[Carlos Laroso]

To come say hi.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It was awesome.

[Carlos Laroso]

They joined last year because of the relationship series. They got married four months ago, bro. Love that. And then to download the Lakepoint app. Also, if you're looking for a daily Bible reading plan, we got you. We got the daily Bible reading plan, plus the weekly sermon, plus an early release of the weekly live free podcast, plus the discipleship guide. Go to Lakepoint Church, slash. Actually, no, just kidding. Text Award app to 20411 and we're going to hook you up. Pastor Josh, how are you doing?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm cleansing my palate. That was a little rough. That's great.

[Carlos Laroso]

Why did it make into the sermon?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, this is. This is a good one. This is. This blessed me to study. So first of all, what we did this week, we're in week whatever of the boot camp series. We're talking about a disciple, stewards all that he has. So this week was the Luke 19 passage. Honestly, I've never preached this passage for my life. This is the parable of the 10 Minas, which a lot of people confuse with the parable of the talents. So one's in Luke, one's in Matthew, I think.

[Paul C]

Yeah, Matthew 25.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Matthew 25. That's what I thought. Thank you, ChatGPT. So a few things. Here's what's going on here in this passage. It's really interesting, this passage. So here's what didn't make it into the sermon. I don't have time to talk about this. This passage is after Jesus has, quote, unquote, set his face towards Jerusalem. What he's doing in this passage is it start. I'm going to read starts saying this as they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable because he was near to Jerusalem and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. Then he goes in and he tells a parable about a quote unquote nobleman that goes off into a far country to receive a kingdom. While he's there, he puts these guys in like, sort of like his, you know, his senior VPs. He puts him in charge of resources and asks them to steward the resources. Then he comes back after he's received the kingdom. This is really important. We're going to talk about a theology of the Jewish people and some things around Jerusalem here in a second. And then he awards each of them. Reign over cities. This is really interesting and has theological implications. Reign over cities according to how well they stewarded the minas, which was a. A month's wages while he was gone. So basically, whoever turned the highest return on investment on what he put into their hands, they received rulership over a certain number of cities. And then at the end, I'm going to read it because it sounds like pretty savage at the end, I'll read this. It says, I tell you that to everyone who has more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. So it's like Jesus is like the anti Bernie Sanders. It's like literally. It's like literally, I'm. It's the opposite. And there's a reason for that. It's the opposite. And then in verse 27, it says, as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me. Now, let me say a couple things real quick here that didn't make it into the sermon. So what Jesus is doing here is he's correcting a misunderstanding for people who were listening because they all thought that as he was going to Jerusalem, they thought he will walk in, it'd be immediate coronation and that he would be crowned like the new. Like the what? David was the Old Covenant. Jesus would be even better to the New Covenant immediately. He'd become the king of Israel. Israel would ride in and overthrow Rome and he would establish his earthly kingdom. Jesus is correcting that here, and he is alluding to something that theologians now call inaugurated eschatology. That's George Ladd. Inaugurated eschatology. Eschatology is a big theological word that means a study of the end times. So what he's doing here is Jesus is correcting. He's going, actually, man, the kingdom is already launched because I now I am ruling and reigning through the power of the Holy Spirit. And you're going to go and make disciples of all nations. So the kingdom is already launched and the church churches are quote unquote, outposts of the kingdom. So in the same way that if I go to, you know, to Israel or wherever and there's the US Embassy, when I walk into the US Embassy, the laws from another kingdom apply on those grounds, a lot of people don't know that. It's very interesting that little square footage. Whenever you walk into a church that's an outpost, it's an embassy of the kingdom of God, and the laws of the kingdom of God apply there. So the kingdom is already launched through the church. But Jesus is saying it's already, but it's also not yet. That's the big theological terminology George Ladd popularized inaugurated as Ketology. He's going, it's not yet. Because I'm actually not. He's going, I'm not right now going to become the king and make Israel the, you know, my earthly kingdom. So what he's doing here is he's answering the question, well then what should you guys be doing in the meantime? That's really what should you be doing in the meantime? Now a couple things are really interesting here that have theological implications a lot of people miss. One, the fact that these guys, his like senior VPs, they receive cities that actually is pull. It pulls on a little thread that runs its way through the entire Bible. A lot of people don't know this. We do not fully understand what this means. What we do know is that when Jesus does return in some way that we do not fully understand, Spirit filled Christians will reign alongside of him over the new earth and in his new kingdom. Here's some verses to talk about this. Revelation 20 says, and I saw thrones and they sat on them and judgment was committed to them. They talking about like, honestly, like us three, dude, someday we're in this verse, they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. So second Timothy two here is a trustworthy saying. If we died with him, we will also live with him. If we endure with him, we will also reign with him. That's interesting. Now here's the one that's the most interesting. Anytime there's verses about angels, I'm like, bro, I don't know what the heck's going on, but I bet it's going to be cool. First Corinthians 6. Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world. So like in some way that we don't understand yet, when Christ returns, we're going to be part of the final judgment. And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? This whole different thing. Do you not know that we will judge angels? Do you have any idea what that means? You got any thoughts?

[Paul C]

I don't think the idea, excuse me, that we're ruling over and somehow we're apart. We partner with God even in the judgment, specifically of the demonic angels.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So like when they're casting a lake of fire, you think we're there going like, toss them in.

[Paul C]

Well, and even that's where sometimes, and obviously I don't say it in the moment, like at funerals or other times. Oh, when they, you know, so and so's become an angel, mom. Like, good for you. Someday.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, no, you don't become an angel.

[Paul C]

You don't become an angel. Yeah, in fact, if anything, we're going to rule over angels and judge them. So.

[Carlos Laroso]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So that's interesting that in this passage, that's the reason he sets them over cities, is pulling on that same theological thread.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Okay.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Two other things that were really interesting that I wanted to make it. Do you have a question?

[Carlos Laroso]

Yeah, I was just going to say.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

What's your face saying?

[Carlos Laroso]

That's consistent. You can read my face actually pretty well. I was just going to say that's consistent with Genesis 2 of giving dominion over Adam and Eve. Garden, Garden to a city. Anyways, there's dominion and yeah, bro, you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Know, some of my personal bull rabbit trail for 30 seconds. Okay, so my personal Bible reading time this week, the whole thing of like the gospels as Genesis 2.0. So like, dude, it just went a layer deeper for me. So okay, you've got. Obviously Adam is the first man and his sin gets imputed to. We didn't plan to talk about this. Let's do this real quick. Let's do a little theology really quick. So you got Adam the first. Theologians call it the federal head of mankind, the representative of mankind. His sin is imputed to all of his children, God. Notice this, this is what notices. We never noticed before. When God creates Adam, the Bible says he gets face to face and he quote, breathes the breath of life into him. Interesting. Then he comes to life through the breath of the Father. And then he gives him a dominion mandate, you know, go and cultivate the earth and basically bring my kingdom and my rule, you know, to everything. And then, you know, obviously had it all, all the fall happen. Adam Failed at a tree. All right? So you start putting all this together, bro. It's amazing. And then Genesis 1 begins in the beginning. In the beginning, God created heavens and the earth. All right? So then think about Jesus. So you put all this together. This starts becoming, like, absolutely fascinating. So in the Gospels, John chapter one begins in the same way Genesis chapter one begins. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. And the Word was God. So you have a Genesis 2.0. The book of Romans calls Jesus the second Adam. We know that, okay? In when we are saved. So think about this. God breathes the breath of life into Adam. That's how he comes alive. In John chapter 20, Jesus turns to his disciples and he. This is really he. He breathes on them and he says, receive the Holy Spirit. So how he created in the beginning was through breath. How he does new creation in the new covenant is through breath. Jesus succeeded at a tree. The book of first Peter calls the cross a tree. Jesus succeeded at a tree. Where Adam failed at a tree. God did creation in Adam. What does the Bible say about us? We are a new creation, and now we're remaking the world. And he gives in the same way that he gave Adam, a dominion, mandate. Hey, go and cultivate the earth. He gives us new creations, a new covenant, dominion, mandate. Go, therefore make disciples of all nations, baptizing them. So honestly, just went a layer deeper. Like, bro, the parallels are insane.

[Carlos Laroso]

There's a lot.

[Paul C]

It's crazy.

[Carlos Laroso]

I love it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm taking up all of our time. Let me keep going. Okay, great. All right, so here's the other thing. And this is really. This is. Honestly, dude, when we go to Israel, you got to see this. This is like, one of the coolest things. Okay? So here's what you got. You got in this passage. Jesus at the end of the passage goes, hey, these enemies of mine, take them and slaughter them. All the things. And he's lamenting over the fact that he's going to Jerusalem. Now, here's what we know. When he gets to Jerusalem, they do not receive him. He gets to Jerusalem. And Jerusalem does what Jerusalem did with all the prophets. The New Testament says they kill him and stone him. So they killed Jesus. Now then you get to the end of Luke 19, and it says this. I'm going to read this. As he approached Jerusalem, he saw the city. He wept over it and said, if you even you had known on this day what would bring you peace. But now it is hidden from your eyes. Now, here's a prophecy he makes verse 43. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and your children within your walls. Now here's listen. They will not leave one stone upon another because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you. So Jesus is prophesying and he's going, hey man, that temple that's in Jerusalem, not one stone will be left upon another. Now, in 70 AD, after the completion of the writing of this gospel, that's really important. So after the completion of the writing of at three of the gospels, this dude named Titus, a Roman military leader, he comes and they sack Jerusalem. Okay? This is AD 70. It's one of the most important post gospel events in history. Titus reportedly, according to Jewish historian Josephus, specifically tells his soldiers, don't destroy the temple. Okay, here's the problem. But Jesus had prophesied they would destroy the temple. So here's what Josephus records. This is really interesting. One of his soldiers throws a burning torch into the temple. When he does that, the temple's full of all this gold. Now this is debated, but the end of it is not debated. As the temple's burning all the gold in the temple. Some people report that that gold melts and then it gets in the cracks of the stones that form the temple on the top of the Temple Mount. We're going to go there later, okay? And so all the soldiers, they start looting the temple to get all that gold out of the temple. So even though Titus commanded his soldiers not to destroy the temple, Jesus prophecy from decades earlier overrides Titus command to his soldiers. They get in there and they start, bro, these stones, when we go, they are 2 to 3 tons each. So when you go to the Temple Mount, if you look over the west side of the Temple Mount, I took this picture while I was over there. That's what you see looking over the west side of the Temple Mount. What that is, bro, that is. This will send a chill down your spine. Here's what that is. That is every single stone, I repeat, every single stone from the temple that Jesus said right here in Luke 19, quote, one stone will not be left standing upon another. Wow. And those dudes ripped apart literally every single stone, tossed them over the side of the west part of the Temple Mount. And to this day, when you go there, you are walking through the rubble of the fulfilled prophecy of Jesus. Not one stone. Now let me just say this. If what he said would happen, did happen. Here's a good news then. What he said will happen is going to happen. Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

[Paul C]

Amen.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's it right there, Matt. That's the thing.

[Carlos Laroso]

That's amazing.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's the thing.

[Carlos Laroso]

Wow.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We want to talk about Jewish people real quick. Yeah.

[Carlos Laroso]

I want to know.

[Paul C]

Just even one little bit of encouragement. I'll do it fast. There's something I'll use a fancy phrase like, can I sneak this in today, please? Since it's plenior and it's the idea. Census plenior, the idea of the fuller sense. And it's the idea.

[Carlos Laroso]

And for people that don't know Paul, what language is that?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Sounds like Latin.

[Paul C]

Like you're trying to make a joke on me right there. You had a.

[Carlos Laroso]

No, I just, you know, he whips out. If you don't know, Paul whips out random languages once.

[Paul C]

I got makeup earlier for every new Italian food one week to make it up for the earlier. What we did to you. But no, since.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I'm sorry. Just keep going.

[Paul C]

Getting the Monterey burger. Amazing. Anyways, the idea, there can be multiple fulfillments. And so to even. What you're saying, what you're saying is the idea of, on the one hand, Jesus was protected, predicting a event that was going to happen within a set within a few decades, and then it did happen. But there's another sense that that was a lowercase J, judgment. There's a capital J, judgment day coming. And so in the same way that the Jews did not heed the warning and then look what happened to them, in the same way, Jesus is still giving to every warning today that, hey, there's going to be a capital J, judgment day coming. But the good news is, is that Jesus faced a judgment day so that we wouldn't have to take him to go. What you say he went to the cross and took on the wrath of God so that wouldn't come on us. So I think it's also just an encouragement to say, hey, as we're talking about the Jews rejection and some of the theological things to say, hey, in other words, that applies to all of us.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Paul C]

That if we don't heed Jesus warnings and repent and place our faith in him, that day will come on everyone at one day. And that's the final day.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right, dude.

[Paul C]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Now, let me. Let's dovetail this one last thing. And then we want to ask. This is a very, very common question people have, and there's a thread that runs Right through this passage. So we're gonna, we're gonna get a running start into it. And we want to answer the question A, Do Jewish people who do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, but they do faithfully practice Judaism, are they saved? We want to answer that question. And that's a very important theological question to answer. Let's get a running start into it. So what people will do is they'll point to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. And some people, there's actually like a little. It's a weird little theological sect that they'll say, oh, God divorced his people and then now he has no affection for the Jewish people whatsoever. So let me just do a quick, a quick deal. So when this happened in AD 70, everybody started asking the question, hey, what's this mean about God's affection for the Jewish people Now? Okay, now gentiles are being saved. Acts, chapter 10 and all the things Gentiles are being saved. So, hey, what's the deal here? If here's some homework for pod listeners? Romans 11 answers that question. Really? Romans 9 through 11 is a parenthetical part of the book of Romans to specifically answer questions about what, how, how did the Jewish people fit into God's new covenant plan, you know, for the unfolding salvation? And here's. I'm going to give a quick postage stamp on this. And then we're going to specifically. I'm going to have Paul, we're going to specifically answer this question. So what you got here is in Romans 11, what. What Paul does is he says, hey, man, he says branches. This is the analogy he uses. He says branches were broken off. And basically he's going back to the Gospel of John analogy of Jesus is the vine and where the branches. He's going, hey, some of the branches and he's talking about the Jewish people were quote, unquote, broken off. Stop me if I start lying, Paul, so that gentiles could be grafted in. Now what he says is really interesting. If you read Romans 11 later, he says, this happened to, quote, stir the Jewish people to envy. So this is a whole deal. And this is not. I don't want to. People won't take this racially the wrong way. I don't think they will. But if you just look in history, it's just a fact, dude. I mean, you just got to get it. You just got to accept it. The Jewish people are high performance people. When they harness that for good, it is high performance for good. There is a radically disproportionate Number of Jewish Nobel Peace Prize winners for a reason. And when they harness it for evil, they are. They are high performance for evil either way. Okay, so they're just high performance people. Now what essentially what Paul is saying in Romans 11 is he's going, hey, man, I know the psychology of Jewish people. Here's how we're going to get them. They're going to see the blessing of God on gentile people, and they're going to want it. So he's going, this is what you're going to see. So in order to, quote, stir them to envy, that's what Romans 11 says. Then he says this. So if you're asking the question, what is going to happen to the Jewish people in the future before Jesus returns, he begins answering that question in Romans 11. That dovetails into what's happening in Luke 19. So this is why I'm a quote him Romans 11. He says, for if their rejection talk about the Jewish people brought reconciliation to the world, in other words, God, quote unquote, broke off some branches so that he could graft the Gentiles in. All three of us are Gentiles. He says, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? He's nodding. He's given like a tip of the cap. I think what he's saying is that whenever you begin to see the Jewish people grafted back in and salvation happening in mass among the Jewish people, he's saying, when he says it will be life from the dead, he's saying, you watch out, watch. The resurrection is right around the corner. That's what he's saying. Then he says this in the very next verse. He says, if the part of the dough offered as first fruits. Talking about the Jewish people, why does he say that? Because God began to work to save the Jewish people first. In the Old Covenant, if the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then so will be the whole lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches. And then he says, I'm just going to read it. He says, I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery. Now, if you're listening right here, here's why what I'm getting ready to read is important. If you have ever asked the question, what will be the clear signs we will see before the second coming of Jesus? His feet are going to come right down on that Mount of Olives someday. He's going to crack the skies and everybody's going to be looking east. If you've ever wondered what are some of those clear signs, I'M getting ready to read to you. What is one of those clear signs I do this. Romans 11. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited. Pause. There's this whole weird, weird thing right now. It's like, you know, and people can use the term antisemitism, like they use racism where it like literally means anything. And it's like, if it means anything, it means nothing. But there actually is. There actually are people who are like, the Jewish people are uniquely more evil than anybody else. That's like literally in direct defiance of Bible verses from Romans 11. It says, don't be conceited. They are not more sinful than you. They are not less sinful than you. We have a command in Romans 11 to quote, boast not against the branches. And it's like literally these verses. So read your Bibles, people. And then it says, Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the gentiles has come in. Talking about predestination election there. We should do a whole podcast on that sometime. And then he says this. And I love this dude. This like, actually makes me tear up. And in this way, all Israel will be saved. And then he says this as it is written, the deliverer will come from Zion. He will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I will take away their sins. So what he's saying here is someday, right before the return of Jesus, there will be a massive outpouring of the Spirit on the Jewish people and a massive revival.

[Paul C]

Amen.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Like, massive. So many Jewish people will place their faith in Jesus and bend their knee to His Lordship that you will be able to accurately say, all Israel is getting saved. Oh, I don't know what's happening, bro. All Israel's getting saved. And let me just say this for our listeners, man. When you see revival among the Jewish people, I'm going to quote the King James, lift up your eyes and look to the heavens, for your salvation draweth nigh. If you ever see that in your lifetime, you be ready, brother. That moment's getting ready to come. Wow.

[Carlos Laroso]

So that's something that we look forward to if somebody's asking. But what about now? If somebody is a citizen Jew, are they saved?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. So Paul, answer. Let's phrase this clearly. I get this question a lot. Yeah. Are Jewish people that do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, but faithfully practiced Judaism, are they saved? G, Pal T, you're probably going to be real Anti Semitic. Here, go ahead. That's a joke. That's a joke. Yeah, I lost Jesus.

[Paul C]

No, bring it back. No, but that's not because they're Jewish. It's because no one, I repeat, no one is saved by their ethnicity or by their sincerity, but by their faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God. So everything I just said applies both to Jew and to Gentile. So you could be someone who's a non Jew, but you are sincere in your religious devotion, but your sincerity does not matter. Again, neither does your ethnicity, but only your faith in Jesus Christ. Because that's part of the overarching argument of Romans 9. 11. So, for example, even in Romans 9, Paul is speaking. We have to remember, by the way, in this context, Paul is a Jew who had come to faith in Jesus. And also he's speaking to the Roman Church. Part of who is Gentile, part of who is Jew. That was actually part of what he was writing about because there was conflict. So it's not that literally every single Jewish person had rejected Jesus, but a large part of them had. And so he's trying to explain, hey, why is that? But it's interesting. He says, I'm speaking the truth in Christ. I am not lying. My conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in heart, for I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen in the flesh. He goes on, that's huge.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Hey, let me just pause, like I just. If you're listening, don't let that verse slip by you. Paul was literally saying, I would give up my seat in heaven if it meant that my kinsmen in the flesh, the Jewish people could get saved. Here's a side note, little pop quiz for you. Actually, I'm not going to quiz you. That's annoying. Did you know that Puritan pastors, in order to get ordained, they were asked in their ordination trials, would you be willing to go to hell if it meant that the people in your church would make it to heaven?

[Paul C]

I did not know that. That's crazy. Yeah, that's about being put on the spot in your ordination.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Richard Baxter in Richard Baxter's old Christian directory is. I think that's in there. Go ahead.

[Paul C]

Well, no, but with that, I mean, to that it's like all Christians should have that heart. I mean, think of what he just said. I'd be willing to spend eternity in hell if it would mean that they would come to faith in Jesus and be in heaven with him. And so even, like, to your thing. That, by the way, leaves. 0. 0 room for anti Semitism.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Paul C]

0. But with that, the question we have to ask is why would he be willing to do that if they were already going to be going to heaven? And then also say that one more time.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It's a really important point.

[Paul C]

Why would he have to be willing to do that if they were already going to go to heaven, if they were sincere? Because even in Romans and in other books Paul talks about they were zealous. But it's not enough to be zealous. It had to actually be zealousness of passion towards Jesus Christ. Because no one comes to God the Father except through his Son, Jesus Christ. And also, even as you said, Romans 11, they will be saved. Well, again, like, will be saved. If they already are saved, then there's no point in saying that. And so again, just to be clear, it's not because they're Jewish that they're not saved. It's because ethnicity and sincerity aren't what saves you. It's faith in Jesus Christ for both Jew and gentile and everyone in between.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Dude, it's. I can't say that on the pod. That, that verse, that Romans 9 verse, that great sorrow and unceasing anguish for my kinsman of the flesh to be saved. Man, if, if anybody's ever had, you got a prodigal son or a prodigal daughter or a relative that you love that's like your kinsman according to the flesh. All that Romans 9 verse is a great one to pray. Yes, dude, and here's one. And I want to make sure you agree with this. What a lot of people don't know is that even the Jewish people in the Old Testament, before the incarnation of Jesus, the New Testament seems to say they were in a certain way saved by faith in Jesus. Okay, so let me explain this in two seconds here, and then you can dovetail and tell me where I'm wrong. So essentially, what you're getting here is the theology people really, Some people think, oh, in the Old Testament they were saved by works, and in the New Testament, we're saved by faith. That's the discontinuity of the covenants. No, no, in both covenants, people were saved not just by faith, but by faith in Jesus. A lot of people. Now you may be going, well, what do you mean, Josh? Jesus hadn't come in the old covenant. Well, here's. Here's what so I'm going to read you two verses. John 8. 56. Jesus says, Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day. Listen, he saw it and was glad. Now, how in the world did Abraham, who I think was around 2,000 years before the coming of Jesus, how did he see Jesus Day? Here's how I take. I want to know if you see it. So when Abraham does the deal where God tells him to take his first son, your only son, whom you love, and take him up on the top of the mountain, and he tells his son to listen, to carry some wood on his back up the top of a mountain, and that the. The Father is going to slay the son. And then his son gets up there after he carries. Listen, every. Every little warning light in every Christian's head should be flashing right now. The firstborn son carries wood on his back up a hill to be a sacrifice. And then they get up there and God provides a substitute. So I think when Jesus says in John 8:56, you, father, Abraham saw my day and he was glad, I think Jesus is saying he saw the foreshadowing of I was gonna be the firstborn son that would walk up Golgotha Hill with wood on my back, and I would be the substitutionary sacrifice for your sins. Jesus is saying Abraham was prophetically seeing what was going to happen in Jesus. And then you go a layer deeper. Galatians 3. 8 says this, and the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, in you shall all the nations be blessed. And when Galatians 3. 8 says that, it's talking about the promise that God had given Abraham. And it says, through your offspring. And then Galatians points out that this is really important, that semantically when God promises through your offspring, the nations are gonna be blessed. The word offspring is singular. So he wasn't saying, through all your lineage, Abraham, the world's gonna be blessed. He was saying, no, no, there's gonna be one of your offspring that's gonna come someday, and through that one guy, all nations will be blessed. Guess who that guy was? Jesus Christ. That's right. So what do you think? Is that accurate to say, No, I.

[Paul C]

Think that's very much. I mean, it's. Think of it this way, even if you go to the Book of Hebrews, because sometimes people say, well, hey, what if Jews don't have faith in Jesus as Messiah, but they have faith in the promises that there would be a Messiah? Hey, they're still having faith. The issue with that is Hebrews talks about how in the Old Testament those were the shadows that pointed to the substance that has come in Jesus. So whereas to your point, in the Old Testament they could have faith in what God had revealed to them. That moment when the substance comes, when the actual thing comes that the shadows are pointing to at that point, it's not enough to believe in the shadows anymore. Have faith in that. You have to believe and have faith in the substance. So even like it says in the book of Hebrews that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin. Well, wait a second. Then why did God command it? Well, for a few reasons. Number one would be it showed that man sin demands death and it's a costly thing. But also because ultimately Jesus would be the ultimate fulfillment. That was a shadow pointing to Jesus and his sacrifice was effective not only for people who put put their faith in the present and people who actually know him as Jesus Christ, but also people in the past to your point, who had faith in God and had done those sacrifices to cover sin, but didn't know the name of Jesus Christ. That makes sense. I think it's basically that same kind of idea is that they had faith in how God revealed to them at that moment. And then Jesus sacrifice covered not only everybody in the future, but also everybody in the past who had already placed their faith.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So all the pre incarnation Jewish people were saved by placing their faith in the promises that pointed to Jesus. And in that way even they were saved by faith in Christ. That's what these verses are saying.

[Paul C]

And if you end up so that now after Jesus it's not enough to put your faith in the promises because the person that the fulfillment has come.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Paul C]

So even some of that because I know we got to get to. I think the tithing conversation is the idea of hey, every human being on planet earth has the same same problem. We have all sinned, we all deserve the wrath of God for our sin. We're separated from God because of our sin. And we all have the same solution that is offered to us, which is Jesus Christ took on our sins on the cross, bore the wrath of God and our guilt on the cross. So that also means that we all must place our faith in Jesus then to receive that benefit. So we all have the same problem. This is not just a Jewish problem or gender problem. It's a human problem with a God solution that's been offered that all misplaced their faith in to receive it.

[Carlos Laroso]

Josh, real quick, because when we have this conversation on this particular parable, there's a lot of misconceptions about money and resources. Man, let's go real quick through the. All the different quote unquote gospels.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, dude.

[Carlos Laroso]

And let's talk about those real quick.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There's a lot of misunderstanding about this. So. Yeah, yeah. So really what we preach about this week is a disciple is a man or a woman of God who quote, stewards all that he or she has. And we talked about the difference between a steward and an owner. Go listen to the sermon. I'm not going to pre preach the sermon. But here's. Here's what a lot of Christians miss. Is there. There's a tremendous amount of confusion around phrases like prosperity gospel and. Okay, well then what about all these verses that talk about, you know, with the measure you use that we make, you shall prosper. Yeah, like it literally says that.

[Paul C]

Yep, yep.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, like it literally says that. Like, we didn't get that from nowhere. Yeah, man. So, like, I'll just do this real quick. Is what Christians have to learn to do is differentiate between. I actually say five of them, and I'm going to rapid fire these. You got the prosperity gospel, which is essentially give in order to get it. So that's the thing, man. If you get, if you, if you sow a seed, you give God a thousand, he'll give you 10,000, you give, you know, and to that I would just say, man, what that does is it produces Christians who actually don't love God. They just use God to get money, cash and prizes. And I would just say, man, like, honestly, if the best thing God can give you is a G wagon, he doesn't love you very much. So you know that. So, number one, you got a prosperity. You got a prosperity gospel is not good. It creates like a very, very, very, very malformed, deformed Christians. Our goal when we give is not to get a whole bunch of stuff back. Our goal is to please God that we love. Okay. So then on the other hand, this became like super popular when I was in college is like, I'll call it the poverty gospel. And it's kind of like I'm trying to decide how inside I want to go here.

[Carlos Laroso]

The pendulum swung basically the other way.

[Paul C]

I feel like I can hear the names in your head.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It's kind of like we can all hear you. Really radical. And, you know, it's like. And that's a misappropriation. That's actually, it's an unfair characterization. But that's how people. It's really like, man, really, the poorer you are. Well, then the more godly you are is kind of the vibe there. And, man, I'll just say, like, it's just, bro, here's the problem, man. Well, here's what that gospel does, is it. Honestly, it malforms your understanding of the character of God. Like, dude, just, just. I'll get to this here in a second. Again, understand, the Bible says all things are to be received with Thanksgiving. Sometimes God jobs you, and he will take you through seasons of suffering and loss. And it's like, man, naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return. Blessed be the name of the Lord. Sometimes he jobs you, sometimes he Abrahams you. And there are people where it's like, man, it's just. Abraham was a very, very wealthy man. Lydia, in the New Testament, very, very wealthy woman. You have that. So God is a good dad that likes to give good gifts to his kids. So we don't want poverty gospel. So those are bad. Now, there's a couple that I'd say are good. One, if you go read the book of Proverbs, it just says a whole bunch of things that essentially are like, hey, bro, if you work hard, you're going to do good. Like, that's not prosperity gospel. That's the productivity gospel. Like, let's get off your butt, let's swing a hammer, let's work hard, let's be diligent. And the way God has designed the world is typically, Typically, that's going to go pretty good for you. That's the productivity gospel. So, yes, we're good for that. There's also the, I'll call it the provision gospel, is that we simply have promises in the New Testament. Can you see all the P's that I'm working with?

[Carlos Laroso]

I like it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I've been a preacher for a minute, man. You're cooking pretty good one preacher for a minute here. None of these are original to me, by the way. I've always wanted to get this in a pod. If anyone ever hears me say something that sounds like another preacher, it probably came from another preacher. We help each other all the time with stuff. My pastor buddy, Joby Martin, who I quote like 30% of the time, he's literally texting me during the Passion conference. Hey, bro, what you got on this? And we're helping you. So anyway, if you ever hear me say something that sounds like another preacher, it probably was because our goal is not originality. Our goal is to be helpful to people. So anyway, where was I.

[Carlos Laroso]

In another P of A. You had the productivity.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You just got all these, these. These verses where God's like, hey, man, if you. If. If you're faithful to me with your firsts, I will supply all your needs in Christ Jesus. So that's a provision gospel. Hey, I'm gonna. Hey, man. That kind of thing. And then the last one, that, that. The last one, I would say I'm trying to. Oh, yeah, I just call it. This is a real stretch to keep a P thing going. Is a. Is a presence gospel. I'll allow it. Pete, thank you.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

You.

[Paul C]

Yeah, you're welcome.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

P, R, E S E N T S presence. And this just goes back to, hey, dude. Like, God is a good dad that loves to give good gifts. Gifts to his kids. And so, yeah, when you're like, you got it right, He. It's literally in this passage because you stewarded the things that I gave you. Well, I'm going to entrust you with more because I'm a good dad and I really like giving good gifts to my kids. There you go.

[Carlos Laroso]

That's great. Can I have one more?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

More? I will allow it.

[Carlos Laroso]

Okay, man. I think if you think about it like in the last 15 years, obviously, I will. I would not do it any other way.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Thank you.

[Carlos Laroso]

So I think, you know, if you think about, especially with this new generation today, I would say a lot of people are buying into the popularity gospel.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Come on.

[Carlos Laroso]

And the popularity gospel will basically tell you that the more popular you are, the more anointed you must be.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Whoopsie daisy.

[Carlos Laroso]

And, you know, especially today, people will assume that if you are growing in popularity, then God must be surely be blessing you, or you're only as anointed as you are as influential. And so I would say, you know, for somebody that's like, probably wondering, you know, is it true? Like, you know, because today everybody wants. Wants a little bit more of that. I would say it is true that God can bless you through popularity and influence, especially as a result of wise, humble stewardship. The Bible actually says that if you humble yourself, God is the one who will lift you up. In fact, you, Pastor Josh, are an example of that. But what that also means is if you are in a season of anonymity or in a season of faithful hidden service, or maybe nobody is applauding you, or maybe you're getting criticized a lot, or you're not getting recognized or the recognition that you think that you deserve, that does not mean that God's blessing and favor is upon you. And I think My fear is with this new generation, you know, especially when social media and all the things, if we examine our hearts most of us care about, how do we become more popular, more even perhaps, than how can I become more faithful and obedient? And the reality is more likes, more applause, more popularity from other people. That doesn't always mean God is blessing you and what you're doing. Jesus said in Luke 6, Woe to you when everybody is speaking well of you. Because that's what they did with the false prophets. John the Baptist ministry grew smaller because his people were turning to Jesus instead of John. And his response in John 3:30 was, Jesus must increase and I must decrease. And so it's like those two went together. And then Jesus said he was the greatest man of all. And so I think that last false gospel of the popularity gospel would say, you know, you seek fame. The gospel would say, no, you seek to be faithful.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Carlos Laroso]

And so I know for me, this is something I'm always wrestling with because I want to make sure that my heart is always in the right place. And I want to live for an audience of one.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Amen.

[Carlos Laroso]

Not of people.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Amen. Carlos. That's the man. If you live for the approval of people, you'll die by their rejection.

[Carlos Laroso]

That's right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right. And it's as just a inviable law of life, right?

[Carlos Laroso]

That's right. I have one more question for you.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I will out.

[Carlos Laroso]

Is tithing a biblical command?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

This is. You know, so here's what. Anytime a pastor answers this, like, oh, of course he's gonna say that.

[Paul C]

Of course he's gonna say, you're incentivized.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It's like people think, never mind.

[Carlos Laroso]

You've been on social media, I see.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

No. So here's. Honestly, man, take the church out of it. And what I would say is, this is, like, really personal to me. So what I would say is, you've got. And we'll just do this quick because I messed with this a little bit in the sermon is. Honestly, man. What I would say is there's a principle that runs its way through the scripture. This is really important. That was in place before the giving of the law in the Old Testament was articulated in the law of the Old Testament and is reaffirmed after the law in the Old Testament in the new Covenant. The principle is. I just call it the principle of the first. And the principle is, God is first. He is quote before all things. Theologians call this the preeminence of God. And so what you get is because God is first and God went first. What God asked us to do as an expression of faith and in order to teach us and our children to walk by faith. He's like, I just want you to return the first tenth of everything I've entrusted to you back to me. You can fire at me all you want. That's like, I don't know how much. I don't want to deep dive this thing. But it's like it's affirmed before the law's ever given. You have, first of all, that's what people miss this. That's what the Sabbath is. It's all part of the same principle. Give me the first day of the week and what you're going to notice is that me plus six days of your productivity can do more than you in seven days without me. It's the same principle. Give me the first, and the rest is going to be blessed. You got that same thing. If you go to the Cain and Abel passage, why did God accept Abel's offering but reject Cain's offering? Is because the Bible says that one of them brought the first, and the other one, it says in the process of time, he brought his. Yeah, obviously you got it in the Old Covenant. It's like all throughout the giving of the law. In Deuteronomy, it says a tithe of everything, which means tenth belongs to me. There's all this stuff that people don't notice. People do not. Not how much this principle is in there. So when the children of Israel go into Canaan, God tells them to bring everything when they conquer Jericho. He says, bring everything, bring every single thing in Jericho. It all belongs to me. Now you may be well, why everything? Why not a tenth? Because Jericho was the first city.

[Paul C]

First.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

First city. The first belongs to me. That's why Malachi chapter three says, hey, man, actually, to not bring me your first is to rob me. Why? Because I am first. So the first belongs to me. And when you keep something that doesn't belong to you, it's actually stealing from it. So you got that? Then Jesus reaffirms it. It's the passage Matthew 23:23. Jesus reaffirms. He's like, hey, this is the NLT says like this. He says, you should tithe. Yes. Jesus said that without neglecting the weight of your matters of the law. And then people miss this again. It's the whole principle everywhere. And then we'll shut this thing down, talk to allies. Beth is if you ever notice this, when Paul is giving Instructions, it's in Second Corinthians.

[Paul C]

You got that up First Corinthians 9, talking about those who get their food by the temple. Is that the reference you're going or. Yeah, keep going, keep going. Hang tight.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So people miss this. He's taken up a collection. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's taken up a collection to bless people at another church. And people miss this. He says, he goes, oh, here's how I want you to do. Do it on the first day of every week. I want you to set aside your increase first. So let's do people miss it. And man, the big idea. And you go, listen, sermon. We don't need a deep dive. The big idea is, hey, man, this isn't to get something from you. I want to give something to you. I want to teach you and your children that's important to walk by faith. And when you return the first to me, the rest is blessed. This is really personal to me. So this. Go ahead and toss that from the journal. My journal entry, this is from 2000 and I won't bore you with this guy. When Jan and I first got married, I was a rural Kentucky youth pastor and my take home salary was $27,000. And Jana did not have a job because she was like, no, no. On, we're in ministry together. We're going to figure it out. And so like the math didn't math. And we just had to make a decision. Are we going to walk by faith or not? And I was a brand new husband. I was real scared about it because I'm a spreadsheet guy. And in my journal, this is from 2005, right here, first year of our marriage, we made that decision. And I opened up a journal just like the one sitting down there. And on the top of the page I just wrote it, God's financial faithfulness. I was like, I'm going to write down every time that God takes care of our needs because we chose to step out in faith and return the first year. And that right there is what I wrote down everything he did in the next year. And bro, there's literally, I wish I could go through them, but when you get Ali Beth on bro, there's like literally stuff on there. Like the Kentucky state government had a law on the books that if there were overpaid property taxes and they couldn't find the people who overpaid the property taxes, after a certain statute of limitations, they had to give it to the people who now live. Lived in the property. Like, I'm the God is so powerful. The IRS paid me. It's like, there's stuff like that. There's this crazy, like, insane stuff. People just dropping stuff in our. Our mailbox, and it was like, dude, so here's the reason I get emotional about this is listen. If you're listening and you're like, you're jaded, and you're like, oh, this big, mega church pastor, of course, he said, don't give to my church. Church. Fine. Don't give. That's fine. I don't care. I just want you to see. I want you to learn to walk by faith. Give somewhere else, whatever. But what I'll say is, you will never. No one will ever convince me that my God is not faithful to provide for his kids when they walk by faith with him. You're never gonna convince me. So, yeah, that's great.

[Carlos Laroso]

That's helpful. Hey, we have Ellie Beth Stuckey coming up next from the show Relatable and Hillary Clinton. And by proxy, by proxy. No promises, but we are all of.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Sound mind and able body.

[Carlos Laroso]

Stay tuned. Well, hey, guys, as you know, Lake Point Church is a movement for all people to know God, live free, and make a difference. But here's the thing. Movements, by definition, move. And so if you're not moving, then are you really being a part of the movement? In fact, somebody once said that two men. Many churches are like football games. 22 people on the field in desperate need of rest, being watched by thousands of people in the stands in desperate need of exercise. And so, hey, listen, we refuse to be a church like that. God has given each of us gifts and talents that were made to be a part of his movement. And so if you have not yet joined a serve team, I want to invite you to take your next step. Like, right now. Just text the word serve to 20411 and we'll help you find your spot where you can make a difference in person or online, whether that's serving in our digital ministry teams to help out with projects like this podcast or our greeter team, or maybe even serving with our kids team. Whichever serve team, you are being called to, go ahead and do that right now. Thank you for being obedient to God's calling in your life. And let's keep doing this together.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome. Allie Beth.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Thank you so much.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We got Ali Beth Stuckey and by proxy, Hillary Clinton.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

That's true. My bestie. She's my good, good friend Hillary. She read my book. I'm sure we'll have a chat about it soon.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So before we get into like what this is. Do you think she actually read any of it?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I think that her millennial staffers probably read it and they put it together. She might have scanned it quickly and approved it. So I don't really think Hillary, there's.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

No way she read it.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I don't think so. I hope. I would love to send signed copy, but yeah, something makes me doubt.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Me too. So what I will say, first of all, for all of, for Live Free Nation, all of you should be listening to Alib's podcast. It's called Relatable. Jana and my girls listen to it on their drives to school.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Well, thank you so much.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So like, so I'll just give a heads up, especially for parents, this is how we use it. Because my kids don't want to hear me talk about all these things all the time. Tom. We do that at dinner table. Is if you're unfamiliar with Ali's podcast, Relatable. She does probably one of my favorite jobs of anybody in America at the intersection of faith, culture, politics, all the issues you honestly, you're thinking about and your kids are processing at school.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So what we like to do is Jan will toss it on during a drive and our kids listen. And so they were like, you're seeing Ms. Allie today.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. That's so sweet. Well, I'm so thankful for what you do. I was thinking about this last night. Night that clear pastors make podcasters jobs easier. Like I want to be an auxiliary feature in a Christian's life. They're already getting their clarity from their pastor, from their husband, from other teachers in their day to day life. And they can listen to Ali Stuckey on the side to help clarify some things. What I don't want, and unfortunately what the state is and so much of Christian America today is that people are having to look to podcasters as their main source of clarity besides the word of God. God. Because they go to church on Sunday and their pastor dances around every issue, not even just politics, biblical issues like gender, marriage, abortion, things like that. And they're like, okay, well that was fine. But like, what should I actually think about it? And so you make my job a lot more fun and a lot easier because you're bringing clarity to your congregants in a way that only really a shepherd can.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Well, that's very mutual. It's like a. It's like a little pastor cheat coat code to point your people to other voices that are like biblically reinforcing what they're hearing from their spiritual father. And so we're very grateful for you.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Well, thanks. Likewise.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, let's talk about Hillary Clinton.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Let's do it now.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Before we do this, I just need to ask a clarifying question. Are you of sound mind and body?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes, checking myself. Okay. Yes, I'm good.

[Paul C]

All right.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Good, good.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes, yes. I love to be alive. I just want to say that. Yeah, that's good. Apropos nothing. I love living. Have a great life. My family. Yeah. Unfortunately, have to announce that you're in the crosshairs.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Good. For Just for clarity's sake. So for listeners who don't know we're talking about. It was, I think, last week, Hillary Clinton wrote a piece in the Atlantic.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

It was kind of like an Ali Bestaki hit piece.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

It was a little bit.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So let me take our people real quick, listeners through what the piece was, and then I want to ask you. The first thing I want to ask you is why you think progressives are, like, aggressively targeting specifically this thing you're saying?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay. So if you don't know what we're talking about. So here's what happens. Let's go to that first one. So this is last week. Hillary Clinton tweets, I believe that Christians like me. Which I have questions, by the way.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wow. I believe that Christians like me and people of faith more generally have a responsibility to stand up to the. This phrase is hilarious. To the extremists who use religion to divide our society and undermine our democracy.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I think that's us.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I think that is us. I think that's us. If I'm going to get that on my office plaque, instead of senior pastor, it's going to say, extremist who uses religion to divide society and undermine democracy. And undermine democracy.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

It's a little long for a sign, but I like it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I think our team can fit it.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, I think so, too.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So she tweets this. Now, before I ask, go on, to what specifically you said that she was not super happy about? What is it like, what happens to your phone in your day when Hillary Clinton tweets about you? You.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Well, I can tell you I was having a nice little chat with my dad and my husband, talking about life, and then my phone starts buzzing. I flip it over, and I have all of these texts in all caps saying, hillary Rodham Clinton wrote an article about you in the Atlantic. And my public had said, don't say anything until you call me. That's hilarious. So I called her and we talked about it, and, you know, it's just another one of those moments where someone decides that what you're saying is uniquely dangerous to the constituents or voters that they're trying to get. And so we talked about how I would respond to it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, so your phone blows up. So then let me take people through what she says. So go to the. This was the article. The article was titled maga's War on Empathy. The crisis in Minneapolis reveals a deep moral rot at the heart of Trump's movement. Do you call yourself maga? How do we. How do you relate to that term?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Well, I don't want to give it away, but later she actually says that I'm the commissar of MAGA morality, which, if there's anything for a sign, I would love to put that on my set, in my room. Maybe bumper stick or something like that. But no, I don't really refer to myself as that. Just a Christian conservative.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, that's me, too. Okay, so then this is what she says. I'm gonna read this, and I want you to. Let's just jump off responding. Why is this specifically aggravating to her? And respond to what she says. This is what she says, Bishop Bud. And by the way, is that the woman that did the thing when Trump visited the church service?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes, yes. And I can. After you read this paragraph, I'll give more context, because Clinton is very, very dishonest. In what she describes as my response to her shocking.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay. Bishop Bud was immediately vilified. One Republican congressman said, quote, she should be added to the deportation list. The pastor and influencer, Ben Garrett, warned his followers, this snake is God's enemy and yours too. She hates God and his people. By the people listening, this is like a. Bishop Bud was like a super progressive, like, like, in not any meaningful sense, a Christian, if I understand it correctly.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes, yes. This was the inaugural weekend for Trump, and they're all sitting in this church, and Bishop Bud goes in there and starts chastising him and says, hey, you know, there are trans kids out there who are afraid for their lives.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

And that was the one where Jaden Vance is looking over at his wife like, what is going on? So that's what everyone is responding to here.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

She continues, the right wing. This is Hillary Clinton. The right wing Christian podcaster Ali Beth Stucky called the sermon, quote, toxic empathy that is in complete opposition to God's word and in support of the most satanic, destructive ideas ever conjured up. Toxic empathy. Exclamation point. I love how she writes this. Yeah, exclamation point. What an Oxymoron. I don't know if the phrase reflects moral blindness or moral bankruptcy, but either way, say it's appalling.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. What she doesn't say is what I was responding to, which is what I just specified earlier, that this Bishop Bud person was talking about transgenderism in kids. It's not possible for a person to be born in the wrong body. There's no such thing as a trans kid. It is evil. People are getting permanently sterilized. They're becoming permanently infertile. They're butchering. Their body is being pumped with cross sex hormones. It is one of the most satanic and destructive ideas has ever conjured up.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Amen.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

And so Hillary Clinton doesn't say, that's what I'm responding to. She basically says, bishop Bud went out there and told us to love our enemies. And then she puts my response as that's toxic empathy.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right, I want you to explain in a second what you mean by toxic empathy here. In a second. But let's continue because there was another part of the article where you were mentioned. She goes on, this is exactly the kind of mainstream Christian view that enrages Ali Beth Stuckey, the author of Toxic Empathy, who styles herself a voice for Christian women. Women has more than a million followers on social media. You get a lot more than that. If I understand. Right. In between lifestyle pitter patter and her demonization of IVF treatments, she warns women not to listen to their soft hearts. This. Here it is. This commissar of Maga morality targets other evangelicals whose sympathy, she warns, has left them open to manipulation. Maybe they recognize the humanity of an undocumented immigrant family and decide that mass deportation has gone too far. Or they make space in their heart for a young rape survivor forced to carry a pregnancy to term and start questioning the wisdom and morality of total abortion bans. It's all toxic to Stuckey. Alabeth Stuckey, what say you?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

So so many things. I would love to know what she thinks is lifestyle pitter patter. I've started to think maybe I should do lifestyle pitter patter, because I don't even know what it means. I might have a whole segment on my podcast of lifestyle pitter patter. For Hillary Clinton, the next thing, the demonization of ivf. Obviously that's a mischaracterization. I think all life matters, from the point that there are embryos onward and how we treat them matters. IVF treatments can very often lead to unethical ways to treat those babies. And then moving on, she Actually gives me perfect examples of what toxic empathy is. We should see the humanity in the illegal immigrant. That scene of humanity shouldn't lead to us advocating for open borders. We should have compassion for the rape survivor. That should not lead us to advocating for the death penalty for a baby because of the circumstances surrounding his or her conception.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, that's right. So, okay, see, you're diving right into this. Can you explain what is toxic empathy? Ali Beth, why do you hate empathy so much?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. So it's funny, I was thinking about this the other day. Progressives, they talk about toxic masculinity. They talk about toxic positivity. And if you say, well, masculinity isn't toxic, they'll say, no, no, no, not all masculinity, but this form of masculinity is toxic. And yet when I say toxic empathy, they pretend that I am saying, all compassion and all sympathy and all kindness and all love is toxic. It's not. I say that empathy becomes toxic when it leads you to three things that's affirm sin, validate lies, or support destructive policies.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Wait, will you say this one more time? Those three things?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes. What it teaches you, or leads you rather, to affirm sin, validate lies, or support destructive policies. And I can kind of explain what this looks like. If you feel so deeply for the person who thinks that he's trapped in the wrong body, and he says, the only way that I can be liberated and happy and fulfilled and live my life life is if I can identify as woman and go into women's bathrooms and play on women's sports teams. If you feel so deeply how that person feels, because that's what empathy means, to feel what someone else feels, then that could lead you to one affirming his sin, which is pretending to be something that you're not denying your biological reality, validating the lie that you can become the opposite sex, and then supporting the destructive policy of infringing upon the rights and the fairness of women and girls. And so that's what that looks like. And we see that across everything. We see that on immigrants, immigration, we see that on abortion, we see that on crime, empathy can actually lead us to making really stupid decisions.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So, like, so just for clarity, you are clearly not saying, man having compassion and care and empathy for people who are hurting, you are not saying that's toxic.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

It's actually just the opposite of that. There's this book called Against Empathy, which is even stronger than mine, but it's by a secular psychologist, Paul Bloom. He wrote it in 2016. And he argued you is really that empathy in general is not that much of a helpful feeling. He says that there's this phenomenon, especially among young people, that the higher you rate on empathy, the crueler you are to those outside of your group. He calls it full of empathy and mean as hell, if I can say that on this podcast. And so what he says is when you feel so deeply for one person that you see as the victim, maybe it's the person being picked on. You perceive everyone outside of that group as opposed to that person. So you justify cruelty against them. We see this when it comes to the immigration debate. Someone who is for deportations a progressive might see as opposed to that little five year old boy who is being detained by ice, they would justify then cruelty, hatred toward you because you have become the enemy of the person that they feel empathy toward. So I actually think yes, being led by what Christians are supposed to be led by, the truth in love is just a much better and more compassionate way to navigate these complex issues.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So I want to know what you think about this. I heard somebody say, first of all, on the Paul Bloom book, I've got a pastor who will remain nameless right now. He's a fairly well known guy. He's in a very progressive city. He told me this is a high compliment to, to you. He told me that that Paul Bloom book is the gateway drug to Ali Beth Ducky's book.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I love it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And what he said is, I can't get my people to read Ali Beth's book. This is a very progressive city. But he's like, I can hand them Bloom.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And he's essentially saying the same thing as Ally, but they'll receive it because he's progressive and secular. And secular. And then I can get him over here.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. Well, there you go. Thank you. Paul Bloom.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, that's. That's it.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Y.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So you responded. I'm gonna read something. You said you responded. You wrote an article in the Free Press. Is Barry Weiss still over there?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

She is. I think it's a part of CBS now. Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

You respond to the Free Press. Here's what you said. You said. She just accused me of thinking empathy is a sin. That's not my argument, but there's a reason she's mischaracterizing me, writes Ali Bestucky. Why is she mischaracterizing you? And why is it that like this obviously is so upsetting to Hillary Clinton and just really secular progressivism in general that they're choosing. We have to destroy this Target. Why do you think that is?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Do you fish?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I fish. Yes, I do.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Okay. So my husband and I, we like to dabble in fly fishing. And what I have learned. I know, I know. I don't it surprising I didn't think.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We could like you even more.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I know. Here we are. Okay. Okay. So what I know and what everyone knows who has ever fished before is that bait only works if the fish doesn't know it's bait. It has to look realistic. It has to look like something that they would want to eat.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

This is a great analogy.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

And so as long as progressives can convince women that the images that the headlines, that the stories that they're showing them are real examples of where their compassion needs to be pulled, they can effectively persuade them.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Them.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

But if women can spot the decontextualized image of that little kid in the blue hat or can spot a headline as I think they're trying to manipulate my emotions and I feel like they're not telling me the whole story, that's propaganda or. Ooh, my empathy is actually leading in a toxic direction because now I've forgotten about the other person on the other side of the moral equation. Oh, this story about this woman who had to carry this baby has made me forget about the humanity and the rights of that little baby inside the womb. Maybe my empathy has become toxic. When you name something, when you show people this is bait, this is not real, they're not going to latch onto the hook.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So that's what. That's why you think they're like. I mean, they're aggressive. It's like, we have to stop this. You think it's because they do. Like their whole movement is running on that thing.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes, it is the sharpest tool they have in their toolbox because we know this. You do this so well. Whenever people are manipulated by a decontextual image that grabs at your heartstrings, that punches you in the gut, it is really hard for us to come alongside that emotionally evocative image with logic, because you gotta get people to stop. You gotta get people to think. You gotta get people to shut off their emotions for a second and just think logically. So much harder to do than to make people feel. And so if we take away that really sharp tool that they have in their toolbox, they don't really have much, because progressivism isn't logical.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's fat, dude. So you actually, you said something that I talked with my kids about at the dinner table. I'm pretty sure you said this Weren't you the one that was like a week and a half ago. You said, you said they don't want you to think your way through things. They want you to feel your way through things.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

They don't want you to think your way through politics. They want you to feel your way through politics. So then we're talking about at the dinner table and my daughter Eliana, the one I was just showing you pictures of before we started in school, she's doing the, she's learning the ethos pathos, logos thing.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

And then it's the, the so toxic empathy. I've heard it, maybe you said it defined as it. They try to get the pathos to override your logos, which is the. Obviously pathos is emotion, logos is logic. So let me play on your pathos emotion to override any logical thinking.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Accurate.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, I would say that's totally accurate. And I will just say this is not a demonization of all emotions, but the problem with empathy, and specifically toxic empathy, is that it blinds you to reality and morality. And so actually it's not that you're so compassionate, it's that you are so narrow in your feeling that you forget about this person over here. I mean, we see it with abortion all the time. Wow, I feel so deeply for this story of this woman that's written about an NPR that she was poor, she had eight kids, her child was diagnosed with this life limiting anomaly and, and she's forced to carry this child to term. Think about all the financial, physical and emotional hardship she's going through because of this draconian pro life law. But you have completely forgotten about the baby on the other side of the moral equation, who, if it weren't for that pro life law would be poisoned, would be dismembered, would be discarded like toxic waste. But instead, because of that legislation, that baby got to be born and held and loved and named and buried. And so I'm actually asking people to expand your compassion and to expand your, your virtue when you're navigating politics rather than only allowing your outrage and your empathy to be dictated by what the liberal media says it should be by.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

So for listeners like just, you know, most of the, a lot of people listen to podcasts are my church members. So like, let me just pastor you for a second. What Alabeth is talking about right now is the book of First Peter it, by the way, this is a command and not a suggestion. It says gird up the loins of your mind. So what she's talking about right now is, hey man, whenever you're wading into something that is high emotion, when emotion gets high, logic tends to get low. And what the book of First Peter is saying is, hey man, whenever you're in that spot, you need to be a man or a woman of God who can. Okay, let me check my emotion for a second. Let me quote, gird up the loins of your mind. What that means is put your mind in a position to do battle. That's what the analogy is. And this is exactly what Ali Beth is encouraging you as a man or woman of God to do is hey man, okay, right now I'm not feeling my way through something. I'm asking the question, hmm, what does the word of God say about this? Okay, so what you just did, because I want to give my people like clear targets, how much time I got, okay? I want to give my people like clear targets on this so that they can do what you said and know when it's happening. So you just gave. I'm going to ask you to give two more examples of how quote unquote, toxic empathy gets weaponized by secular progressives to advance evil legislation. You just gave one. And I'll just reiterate it on. For instance, abortion is. Hey, let's tell a story of a 16 year old girl that was raped or taken advantage of and then she tried to, you know, she was not able to receive an abortion and so she had medical complications and she died. Which if I actually remember right, there was a story like that that wasn't actually true. True, but that was huge a couple years ago. And what they'll do is so think about emotionally gripping story, which by the way is legitimately emotionally gripping, like, oh my gosh, are you kidding me? But to stir up your emotions so great that actually you're willing to disobey commands of God like, hey man, that is terrible. But. But you shall not. Murder is still a thing.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Right?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, so that's one example. Can you give two more? Do the however you want to take it on gender, marriage and sexuality, you can go trans thing, however you want to do it and then do the immigration thing. Just quick examples in each of those.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, so on the abortion one, that's a good example and something that we haven't said very clearly. So someone tells a story about this woman, she went to the emergency room, she was having a miscarriage, she wasn't able to get the care that she needed, needed, and so she died. That is a legitimately sad story. We should feel so Sad for that woman. And so I'm not trying to arrest your emotions there. I'm not saying that you shouldn't feel for that woman. But when we feel so deeply, we tend to accept whatever narrative, narrative or accusation is attached to that. So the narrative and accusation that is attached to that story is. Well, it's because of Roe v. Wade was overturned. That's because of pro life legislation. And what just needs to happen in that moment for us is to say, is that true? Wait, how do I know that's true? Wait, how does this law connect to this over here? Well, what does the law actually say? Oh, I see. That the law has a protection for miscarriage care. And actually, legally, she could have gotten the care that she needed. So those two things aren't connected. That takes more time. That takes more diligence. But that is what Christians are called to do because we are given this incredible mind that can think. And that is true about all things. Certainly that was true with the little boy, Liam. We see this story. It evokes our emotion. We should feel for him. I do feel for him. But immediately we just buy whatever story is attached to that image that he was kidnapped and used as bait without even asking, how do I know that's true?

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's not what happened.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. Yes. And you've done such a good job of debunking that they cared for this little boy. The father apparently ran away and all of that terrible thing. You should feel for him. But that doesn't mean you accept whatever story is immediately attached to him. So when it comes to, for example, gender, I kind of already gave this example earlier. You hear this story, and this is told all across the news of this child who feels like, oh, my gosh, I've always been trapped in the wrong body and I can only be happy. And in fact, I won't commit suicide only if I can get cross sex hormones, if I can go on puberty blockers, if I can have some kind of surgery to make me look like the opposite sex.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, it's the, hey, do you want a living son or a dead daughter?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes, totally. Which is not true. And I've talked to parents who are completely duped by that and allowed their minor to get the double mastectomy. And that is, of course, very compelling to us. We don't want anyone to feel like they're uncomfortable in their skin. We want them to be happy when we want them to be free and to feel fulfilled. The problem is that stops us from remembering the consequences that they are going to bear on their body. Like, I have talked to woman after woman on my couch, on my show. They were a teenager. They felt like they should have been a boy. Because of the empathy and the love of the people in their life, they were allowed to go on cross sex hormones, get a double mastectomy. I can think of three girls off the top of my head who then realized later on, oh, wait, I'm not actually a boy. Detransitioned or living who they are as women, but all of them are devastated that they cannot breastfeed their babies. They're married, they have kids, their milk comes in. Not to get too graphic, but as a mom, like, I, I can just imagine how devastating this is. And they can't breastfeed their kids because of the toxic empathy of the people in their lives who affirmed them into making that choice and so on. All of these things, we just have to remember that there are motivations of people who want to capture our consciences and extort our emotions for very nefarious purposes. And we as Christians have to ask a couple questions, like what is truth actually true scientifically, historically, all of that, but also what is biblically true? At the end of the day, it's not about the stories that can pull on our heartstrings. It's what does God say? For example, on gender, we only have to go 27 verses into the entire Bible to read that God made us male and female. So no mo. No matter what someone feels about their gender or their identity, we can look to God's word for that clarity. And agreeing with God is actually the most loving thing we can always do.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, do the. You've, you've teased it, but because it's the one that's in everybody's head right now.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Immigration.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Apply it to the immigration thing. How does toxic empathy get weaponized to advance, you know, potentially destructive policies?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, well, we hear the story, and sometimes it's true, maybe. And a lot of times it's not true. The story of the person who was here, totally innocently, they've worked here for 20 years, and then mean old Donald Trump and his ICE agents come along and deport them, separates them from their family. And we only hear those stories and that makes us think, well, maybe all of these deportations are unjust. Maybe we shouldn't enforce these immigration laws. These are people who are our neighbors and our friends. But then when you look at the other side of this, okay, if we weren't to enforce this law, who gets to stay? I think of Kate Steinle, for example, she was the 30 year old woman in San Francisco going on a walk with her father one afternoon and an illegal immigrant who had already been deported five times but was able to come back and stay because of the 2015 San Francisco Sanctuary city laws that actually shielded him from deportations. He stole a gun, he shot her in the chest. Her last words were, help me, Daddy. And she died. When I think of Lake and Riley, when I think of Molly Tibbets, when I think of Jocelyn Nungare down in Houston, I think of all of these people who would still be alive if we enforced the policies that people today are seeing are so draconian. And the fact of the matter is, yes, we can have one side of the story that's sad. The person who, besides crossing the border illegally, hasn't committed a crime and now has to go back to Mexico. We can look at the sad story of Kate Steinle and Molly Tibbets, but at the end of the day, we have to just look at what is actually true. And the truth is, is that every nation has a right to sovereignty, has a right to legitimacy, has a right to borders. We see that principle all the way throughout Scripture. God being a God of order, nations and laws and borders were all his idea. And so sad stories aside, it's just legitimately the right legal and biblical thing to do, to have borders and to enforce that how a government sees fit.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

But Ali, you're training Christians to be heartless. What's that at you?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I actually want them to have much softer hearts towards the people who are truly vulnerable. I just want them to remember that Lake and Riley is also their neighbor. I want them to remember that the unborn child is their neighbor. I want them to remember that the little girl who just lost his scholarship because there's a boy competing against her in track is also her neighbor. I want them to remember that the children that are being forced to be raised in fatherless and motherless homes because we've redefined men marriage, that's also our neighbor. I want them to know that the people in communities that are now getting murdered and assaulted because of soft on crime social justice policies, that those are our neighbors too. I want you to expand your compassion, but then I don't want you to be led by your feeling. I want you to ask yourself what is politically true and what is biblically true. What does the Bible say about gender, about not murdering people, about life inside the womb, about the definition of justice and how, how the state should work and the authority of the state and about borders and we could have debates about those things. I think that's fine. But what we cannot do is just be led by our emotion which is being weaponized against us for very nefarious purposes.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah, dude. So man, so again I'm just, I'm verbally highlighting things for our people. So you, every one of you, because we got a, we got a ton of people who are like brand new Christians who are not Christians yet. Listen to, listen to Live free. So like you just need to know this. You're going to have to make a decision at some point in your life. Does the word of God stand in authority over my feelings or do my feelings stand in authority over the word of God? And so you're going to have to make that decision. So does the word stand over my feelings and judge and evaluate what I feel? Or do my feelings stand in authority over the word of God and judge and evaluate what the word of God says? And then you decide based on your feelings what you accept and what you reject. So for instance, to what Ali just said, man, if you're listening to the example of that is, hey man, oh my gosh, that really rips my heart out about the, you know, the 16 year old that was seeking an abortion. I have feelings, feelings about that. Okay, I understand you have feelings about that. But does the word of God have authority over your feelings or do your feelings have authority over the word of God? You have to make that choice and we all know the right choice. So Ali Beth, let me just finish and kind of do some quick hitters, will ya?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Sure.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Okay, let's quick, quick hit quick hitters here. So you know, you can take this whatever direction you want. Let's go two to three sentences on these things.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

All right. Situation right now with ice.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I am praying for ICE officers. I'm just very thankful for people who go out there and are willing to enforce totally legitimate immigration law. And that doesn't mean that you justify every single thing that every officer does. But I'm just, I'm very thankful for them and we should be praying for their protection and praying for their morale. It's a very hard time to be doing your job in that arena right now.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There has been speaking of. So it's not just, just that, that the empathy. When progressives do empathy, it's not just that it's toxic. Jan and I've talked about this. It's also selective.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Totally. So it's like that's the nature of empathy.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We're going to highlight this person that needs empathy and hide these people who are also deserving of empathy. So, like, heads up. There's an over 1100% increase on violent assaults on officers on ICE officers in the last. Well, hey, man, most of those guys are dads.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That are risking their lives and making $55,000 doing it. So it's like, hey.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

And arresting sexual offenders. Some of the most grotesque crimes that you have ever heard of are being committed by the people. Not all of them, but a lot of the people that they are arresting and deporting. So thank God for ice.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Yeah. Yeah. And again, we're not. Neither of us are giving a blanket approval to literally every action of literally every ICE agent. That's not we're doing.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Or anyone.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Nobody's doing that. No, he's doing that. Epstein for files.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Okay. Sin makes you stupid. And when you covet power or people, you end up getting way too close to criminal activity and perversion than maybe you originally intended. And yeah, that's. That's one of the lessons that you take away from this. And also I wrote. I read an article a few years ago that I thought was so interesting that the reason why we have a right for revulsion to Jeffrey Epstein is because of Christian civilization. Because, Chris, that's really good. Yes, because really good. Yes. Christianity and Christian morality and the definition of marriage is between one man and one woman. To be fruitful and multiply, that precludes pedophilia. And so there have been a lot of Jeffrey Epstein's throughout history in all different cultures. It's the vestiges of the Christian conscience here in America that make. Make us rightfully hate Jeffrey Epstein.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's fantastic. So listen, if you did not just pick up on what she just said, that's brilliant. Essentially what she's saying is, hey, man, throughout history, nobody really cared about people messing around with 13 year olds until Christianity came along.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Still in many countries today that are non Christian.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

That's right, dude. That's fantastic. Okay, midterms. What you think?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Ooh, I think Republicans got some work to do. I think we got some messaging like. Messaging work to do to make sure that people know that this is. If it is the party of justice and the party that is doing its best through its capacity to make your life freer and safer.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Preferred next presidential candidate.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Ooh, that's tough. You know, I really. I really like J.D. vance. I think he could do a good job. But I love Marco Rubio. Have since. I love the guy.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I like.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I like him more than I did in 2016, actually seven times. Yeah, I know he does. I think he's doing great at all of them.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

I got a pastor buddy who will also remain nameless for the second that he was in his small group and this guy tells me like, no, no. He's like real deal.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Well, at Charlie's memorial, he went up.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

There and I was like, oh, he.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Crushed what is happening. He crushed the full gospel. He just. He can't be the commissar of MAGA morality because that's me. But he can have every other role. I guess.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

We're going to send her plaque. Okay.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Thank you. Yeah, I want it.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Ladies and gentlemen, Ali Beth Stuckey. All of you need to be listening with. I would encourage you especially if you have daughters with your daughters to her podcast relatable. The Howard team are big fans. You should be too. Alet, thank you for coming.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Thanks so much.

[Pastor Josh Howerton]

Sam.