ICE Shooting in Minneapolis: How Should Christians Respond!? | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Live Free with Josh Howerton

Lakepointe Church | Episode: ICE Shooting in Minneapolis: How Should Christians Respond!?
Air Date: January 12, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Live Free with Josh Howerton dives into two major topics:

1. Frequently "Shouted" Questions about Baptism—A deep theological discussion on the meaning, methods, and necessity of water and Spirit baptism, including an extended critique of Catholic and Protestant paedobaptist (infant baptism) perspectives.
2. Christian Response to the Minneapolis ICE Shooting—Analysis of the Minneapolis incident where an ICE agent fatally shot a woman, the ensuing cultural reactions, and a call for Christians to seek reflective, justice-minded responses rather than reactive activism.

Throughout, the tone is lively, engaging, and intentionally practical, aiming to empower Christians to live thoughtfully and biblically in a chaotic world.

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Key Participants

• Pastor Josh Howerton (Host, Lead Pastor at Lakepointe Church)
• Carlos Arazan (Co-host)
• Pastor Paul Cunningham (Guest/Pastor)
• Occasional references to other public figures, e.g., Father Mike Schmitz

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1. Frequently Shouted Questions About Baptism

Main Questions Discussed

• If I was baptized as a baby, do I need to be re-baptized?
• Does baptism save you, or is it symbolic?
• What's the difference between water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
• Is there a biblical case for infant baptism? What are the main positions in Christianity?

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[07:26] The Three Main Theological Positions on Baptism

Paul Cunningham:

• Roman Catholic Position: Baptism (usually as infants) initiates salvation, removes original sin, confers regeneration, and is necessary for entry into the Church.
• Protestant Paedobaptist Position: Baptism is for infants of believers, not to save but to signify entry into the congregation, expecting future faith. (E.g., Presbyterians, Methodists.)
• Credo-Baptist (Team Lakepointe): Only professing believers are baptized, by immersion, as a public declaration after personal faith.

Josh Howerton:

"If baptism is a symbol and sign that I am beginning the Christian life, it should be for those who have begun the Christian life." ([30:02])

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[17:28] Shared Beliefs and Key Differences

Shared:

• Baptism is a step of obedience.
• In NT church, “there is no such thing as a Christian who intentionally refuses baptism.” ([17:53])

Differences:

• Who is baptized (infant vs. believer)
• How (pouring/sprinkling/immersion)
• Essential meaning (salvation, expectation, or sign of faith)

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[25:24] Why Credo-Baptism? (Lakepointe’s Position)

Paul Cunningham:

• Best Scriptural Case: Always a sequence—faith and repentance, then baptism. No example or command to baptize infants in the NT.
• Preserves the Meaning: Baptism symbolizes union with Christ; infants cannot express this faith.
• Protects the Gospel:

  "Now, we'll be careful here because... it's hard not to slip into [‘works’ salvation] if you add anything, like baptism, to faith alone." ([30:08])

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[31:23] Major Scriptural Passages Discussed

• John 3 (“Born again by water and Spirit”)—Context in Ezekiel 36: not a command for baptism, but a promise of spiritual cleansing and rebirth.
• Acts 2:38 (“Repent and be baptized...”): Emphasizes immediate response, but faith is what saves; baptism is not the means of salvation.
• 1 Peter 3:21 (“Baptism now saves you...”): This is a complex, debated verse; interpreted as baptism being an outward pledge of a good conscience, not the literal water saving.
• Romans 10; John 3:16—Overwhelming clarity: Salvation is "by grace alone, through faith alone, apart from works" ([42:14]).

Notable Quote:

"The number of verses that make it clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, apart from works is stacked a mile high."
—Josh Howerton ([42:15])

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[47:26] FAQs and Pastoral Wisdom

• Should I get baptized if I was only baptized as a baby?

  "Yes, you should... Baptism is an outward expression of an inward reality of grace... That was not true of you when you were an infant." ([47:38])

• Should young children be baptized immediately after a profession of faith?

  "Be discerning about the why... Don’t rush them to avoid false assurance—look for signs of genuine conversion." ([50:04])

• Do you need to be baptized to be saved?

  "No, you don't.... We're saved by grace apart from works. Yet, it's real dang important." ([52:11])

• Should I be baptized again if I’m ‘rededicating’ my life?

  "No—baptism is one and done... Just repent and start following Jesus anew." ([54:59])

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[55:48] Baptism of the Holy Spirit: Is It a Thing?

Josh Howerton:

• Avoids denominational fights about terms; what's important is the biblical concept:
  • All believers have the Holy Spirit at salvation.
  • The NT pattern shows subsequent fillings for power, assurance, and deeper encounter.
  • Cites Jesus, the disciples (John 20, Acts 2, Acts 4), and Pauline teaching (Ephesians 5:18: "Be filled with the Spirit," present continuous).
• Key Purpose: Power for witness, assurance of salvation, deep experience of God’s love.

Historical Testimonies:
Examples from D.L. Moody, Jonathan Edwards, John Wesley, Blaise Pascal, Thomas Aquinas—each encountering dramatic post-conversion "fillings" or assurances of the Spirit.

Notable Quote:

"If Jesus needed [the Spirit’s filling], heads up, bro—you need it desperately."
—Josh Howerton ([59:53])

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2. ICE Shooting in Minneapolis: How Should Christians Respond?

(Discussion begins ~[74:31])

[75:45] The Playbook: Manufactured Outrage and Christian Discernment

Josh:

• Describes the incident: ICE agents executing a lawful warrant, fatal shooting of a woman (blocking, then ramming an officer with her car).
• Immediate social media outrage—often based on unclear, selectively-edited footage.
• Political and media figures seize the narrative before investigation or full information.
• When full footage/evidence emerges, it often tells a more complex story, but anger has already been weaponized.

Notable Quote:

"If you have already decided who the good guy is and who the bad guy is before you hear anything, you are not interested in justice. You're just an activist for a cause." ([13:00] referenced later at [92:37])

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[81:35, 94:00] The Christian Call: Slow Down, Reflect, and Seek Justice

• Proverbs 18:17 cited:

  "Whoever states his case first seems right until another comes and examines him."

• Cautions against intersectional/critical theory lens that pre-determines innocence/guilt by identity or social status.
• Biblical justice: investigate and weigh evidence; wait for all the facts.
• Empathy for All: tragedy for all involved (mother killed, officer traumatized, children left motherless).
• Slow to React: In the age of viral outrage, Christians must intentionally be “ten times slower,” letting due process unfold.
• Pray for All Parties: Officer, woman’s family, the city.

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[98:29] The Underlying Spiritual Reality: Lawlessness

Carlos:

• Sees a “spirit behind all this that rejects authority, wants to tear down systems, and rebels in nihilistic outrage. The Bible calls that a spirit of lawlessness.”
• Jesus warns in Matthew 24—in the last days, lawlessness will abound, and love will grow cold.

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[99:31, 102:24] Lawlessness vs. God-Ordained Authority

• The enemy (Satan) is “the spirit of lawlessness.”
• God instituted three authorities: Family, Church, State, and secular progressivism often targets all three for deconstruction.
• Christians are called to submit, honor, and reform—not destructively rebel.

Notable Quote:

“If you watch in secular progressivism, what does it teach? Instead of ‘honor your father and mother,’ the whole vibe is ‘blame your father and mother.’... When it comes to the state, that’s what it does. The spirit underneath the situation is a spirit of lawlessness.”
—Josh Howerton ([99:31]–[102:24])

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[102:27] Prayer and Final Thoughts

A closing prayer for wisdom, peacemaking, Spirit-filling, the city of Minneapolis, the woman’s family, and the ICE agent.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, apart from works, is stacked a mile high.” —Josh ([00:00], [42:15])
• “If baptism is a symbol and sign that I am beginning the Christian life, it should be for those who have begun the Christian life.” —Paul ([30:02])
• “If you have already decided who the good guy is and who the bad guy is before you hear anything, you are not interested in justice. You're just an activist for a cause.” —Josh ([13:00], [92:37])
• “We want reformation, not lawlessness.” —Carlos ([99:07])
• “Lawlessness is the undergirding spirit underneath critical theory and everything it embodies.” —Josh ([99:31])
• “Ask, seek, and knock—your heavenly Father wants to give you [the Spirit’s fullness].” —Josh ([73:03])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [07:26] Start of Baptism Theological Divide
• [17:28] Common Ground and Key Distinctions
• [25:24] Why Lakepointe Holds to Credo-Baptism
• [31:23] Major Passages (John 3, Acts 2, 1 Peter 3, Romans 10)
• [47:26] FAQs (Baby Baptism, Young Kids, Re-baptism)
• [55:48] Baptism of the Holy Spirit Discussion
• [74:31] Cultural Analysis—ICE Shooting Reactions
• [81:35] Manufactured Outrage Patterns
• [94:37] Call to Reflect Before Reacting; Justice, Not Intersectionality
• [98:29] Spiritual Drivers: Lawlessness and Authority
• [102:27] Closing Prayer

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Tone and Style

The episode's tone is a mix of theological rigor, pastoral wisdom, and energetic real-talk. Humor and practical analogies (football, famous theologians’ mystical experiences, social criticism) abound. The hosts aim for biblical clarity and layman accessibility and urge listeners to “live free” by thinking and responding, not just reacting, to intensely emotional events.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Show

• You’ll gain a robust, practical understanding of the baptism debate, its impact on faith, and nuanced answers to tough questions about faith, obedience, and children.
• You’ll hear a passionate defense of “salvation by grace alone,” and warnings against conflating tradition, ritual, or activism with biblical faithfulness.
• Regarding cultural events like the ICE shooting, the podcast challenges the listener: don’t get swept up in weaponized outrage or partisan reaction. Be “people of thoughtful reflection, not just emotional reaction.”
• Throughout, you’ll be invited to experience more of God’s presence through the Spirit and be empowered to bring wisdom and peace into turbulent times.

Transcript

[A]

The number of verses that make it clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, apart from works, is stacked a mile high.

[B]

If baptism is a symbol and sign that I am beginning the Christian life, it should be for those who have begun the Christian life.

[A]

If you have already decided who the good guy is and who the bad guy is before you hear anything, you are not interested in justice. You're just an activist for a cause.

[C]

There seems to be a spirit that basically just rejects all authority and. And the Bible calls that a spirit of lawlessness. As Christians, we want reformation, not lawlessness. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the live free podcast coming to you from Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. My name is Carlos Arazan. I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton and Pastor Paul Cunningham.

[A]

We are kicking the pig.

[C]

Let us kick this pig.

[A]

Let us say it in Spanish again.

[C]

Vamos agol pier este cerdo.

[B]

It just sounds so much better.

[C]

And welcome. And today we're going to be talking.

[B]

About you combined Italy.

[A]

I always do that. Dude, It's. It's the. It's the culturally ignorant Kentucky kid.

[C]

I just became Italian right now.

[A]

It's so that's probably demeaning. I. I don't know why I do that. It's me. I'm the problem.

[C]

This is an emoji, too, by the way.

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's the chef's kiss. The chef's kiss.

[C]

We'll take it. We'll take it.

[A]

Wait, wait. Before you wait, tell them what we're.

[B]

Going to talk about.

[C]

Yeah. Hey, we have an episode today, by the way.

[A]

Heads up. Juicy episode. Yes, heads up.

[C]

Very much so. We're going to be talking about frequently shouted questions about baptism.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Such as if I was a baby. It was. If I was baptized as a baby. Do I have to get re. Baptized?

[A]

Does baptism save you responding to Father Mike? Is his last name Schmidt?

[C]

Yeah, I think it is.

[A]

The handsome Catholic priest.

[B]

A really handsome Catholic priest.

[A]

The dad. Come guy. We can't be number one on the religion podcast on itunes.

[B]

It's hard to beat a handsome Catholic priest.

[A]

Dad comment.

[B]

It's really hard.

[C]

And we're going to be talking about. Is baptism of the Holy Spirit a thing?

[A]

Yes, we are.

[C]

And we're going to be wrapping up with the ice shooting in Minneapolis.

[B]

Conversation.

[C]

Yes, we are, Pastor Josh.

[A]

Juicy, juicy episode. Before you go anywhere, I want to give a shout out. And I have. You guys have not seen this video. I have permission to show this video. So if you let me set this up. If we have A podcast listener who sent this in. If you ever been to a LakePoint service, whenever I do an invitation, at the end, I always do the same thing. Everybody makes fun of it. Where I'll be like, hey, on the count of three, if you pray that prayer and from a sincere heart, raise your hand and you know, can anybody remember the three things I say? I say one.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

I do remember.

[A]

What do you. What is it?

[B]

1.

[C]

1. God loves you.

[A]

2. Do you remember, Trinity, you came here for a reason today. 3. Raise that hand in there.

[C]

Lock that elbow.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, now. All right, now check this out. So this is Steve Harden's niece. I guess I'm going to May get the deals details wrong. Had a bit of a medical issue or something. A little scared of taking her medicine, that kind of thing. So they texted me. They're like, she found a way to get herself to take the medicine. And this is the video she sent. Check this out. God loves you. 2.

[B]

You are here for a reason. 3.

[A]

Drink it. Lock that elbow. Come on. I love it. She said, one, you gave you a reason today. Two. God loves you. Three. Lock that elbow.

[B]

She just throws it back.

[A]

She did.

[C]

That's amazing.

[A]

That's incredible. So shout out. We love you, Steve Hart's niece.

[C]

Hey, man. That's amazing. That's. That's great.

[A]

Awesome.

[C]

Did you know that we are now on video on Spotify, by the way? That's a new thing.

[A]

Oh, my.

[C]

So just so you know, technology, my.

[B]

Preferred way of watching video.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Spotify.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know why Apple is so behind. I don't know how they don't have video at this point.

[A]

I don't know either.

[C]

Hey, man, every single week, we do a hat giveaway.

[A]

Yes, we do.

[C]

And we got a winner. Shout out to 9 KC row from last week's giveaway to comment on this week's giveaway. We got a hat for you. Comment hat below on YouTube with the little cap emoji. Because, you know, because we can.

[A]

Hey. Also do this. So by the way, we're moving tons of these things.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

By the way, somebody comment. I don't keep. I don't get any of the money from the hats. I think some people thought I was, like, pocketing hat money.

[C]

Wait, we don't get money from the hats.

[A]

Are you getting? No, I'm not getting. We're not. That's just helping fund the pocket.

[C]

So.

[A]

So anyway, if you get one of these, tag me on Instagram. Like, do an instagram story and tag me in it or a post and I'll reshare it. We can spread Live Free Nation.

[C]

And by the way, if somebody's like, where do I get a hat? Online store for Live Free is available as well. You can get that hat if you Text Hat to 20411 or go to Live Free shop. And by the way, do you want to hear something exciting?

[A]

Oh, I would love to.

[C]

If you are part of the Live Free Nation.

[A]

I've been waiting all day to hear this. Exciting.

[C]

That's why I'm here. If you're part of the Live Free Nation and you come visit us in person to any of our physical locations for the first time and you tell us that you came because of Live Free, we got a free gift for you.

[A]

Oh, so is it a hat?

[C]

I will not say because. Because it might. You. You need to find out.

[A]

So they said they go to the. They go to the first time guest tent and just say, hey, I. I came because of Live Free.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

And we give them the gift.

[C]

We gotta get the hair.

[A]

And it might be a hat. I don't know.

[C]

Stop by for the. And if that's you. That's right, it might be a hat, it might be something else. But that's. That's happening.

[B]

So no cheating. No, not. Not like you've been here for 10 years. Don't. Don't cheat.

[C]

First time guest.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Last thing. Al you can also participate for if you're here. One thing you need to know that a lot of people have been asking us about man. People want a daily Bible reading plan. And so here's what we did. We basically re engineered our LP Lakepoint app to help our listeners basically align their discipleship rhythms. And so when you download the Lake Point app, you can find a daily Bible reading plan plus the weekly sermon, plus an early release of the live free podcast and a discipleship guide with discussion questions you can use for your group to help you with your discipleship. So go to download the Lake Point Church app, text the word app to 20411 or go to Apple or Google Play store. You can get it now.

[A]

Good job, Carlos.

[C]

Thank you, man. I. You know, we're people. No, no, no, there's more. Oh, like the podcast is just starting. Hey, Pastor Josh, I have a question for you.

[A]

Yeah, I. I just want to say.

[C]

I was looking forward to hearing you say that. What did I make into the sermon?

[A]

Okay, so this is week two. This is a big week. Obviously this is a big week this week two of the boot camp training for Team Jesus series, where basically we're walking people six, seven weeks through how we make disciples. At Lake Point this week was a disciple is baptized in the water and spirit, and water and spirit. So we're going to talk about that. So obviously, message was on both water baptism and whatever you want to call it. I'm gonna talk about this later in the podcast. Whatever you call it, I don't care what you call it. You can call it baptism, Holy Spirit, you can call it being filled with the spirit. You can call it. Presbyterians can call it unction. I don't care what you call it. But whatever that thing is that happens to a Christian after they are saved, where they get a fresh encounter with the Holy Spirit, you need that. So that was the whole sermon this week.

[C]

Unction's gotta be the coolest way to call it.

[A]

Those the Presbyterians?

[B]

Yeah, they got the corner on cool terms.

[A]

They do.

[C]

Unction, man.

[A]

Unction. He's got the unction.

[B]

They may not. They may not show the unction always, but they have it sometimes.

[A]

That's right. That's right. They don't show it. You walk into their services, it's like, man, if y' all are happy and you know it, tell your face. We love our presence here, brothers and sisters. All right, so here's what did make into the sermon. A few things. Number one, obviously, preached on Jesus baptism. I preached from the Gospel of Luke. So I do want to show this. Hey, Trinity, will you go and toss that up there? So I've been here. This is the reported or likely location of Jesus baptism. The reason that people speculate this is in John 1:28. So this Jesus baptism account, this is actually very significant. It is one of only, I think, four or five events that are recorded in all four gospels, the Synoptics and John. It's recorded in all four. So it's obviously like, this is a big deal. Okay. And we're gonna talk about why here in a second. The Gospel of John Only in John 1:28 says that the baptism of Jesus happened at quot Bethany beyond the Jordan. It's the only gospel that specifies a geographic marker. So this is people's best guess. And I've been here. This is people's best guess. Heads up. If you go there, it's kind of a downer. It's honestly, like, you get there and you're like, huh, Thought it'd be better. Seriously, it's like a glorified puddle. I'LL be honest. It's one of those things where in like, four minutes, you're like, all right, let's. Let's find a McDonald's, and there's a billion Israeli guards all over the place. So anyway, it's called Almagtas. That's that spot right there. So that's just kind of cool. Number two, obviously interesting that the Holy Spirit descends as a dove. Dove is obviously a bird that represents peace throughout the scriptures. And as we'll talk about here in a second, that is one thing that the felt experience of the Holy Spirit does is he brings a peace into your life that surpasses understanding. This is thing. Honestly, man, I almost built a whole sermon around this last year, and I may do it at some point. So this is one of two events in the Gospels where the audible voice of the Father speaks to the Son. Very interesting. A lot of Christians miss this. Both times, the Father says the exact same thing to the Son. So we only hear him twice. And both times the Father says, I love this. The dad says to his boy, you are my beloved son, and with you I am well pleased. Now, this is. I don't want to do a whole sermon. Let me just say a quick thing on this. What I think one thing the scripture's showing us is that the heart of a good dad is towards his kids. You are my beloved child, and with you I'm well pleased. So what should our presence like? Three of us are dads. What should our presence feel like to our kids? It should feel like, you are my beloved child, and with you I am well pleased. I will say some. This was, like, real popular, like, 10 years ago. Christians, especially in, like, counseling world, they'll get this mixed up where they'll be like, oh, man, I had a bad dad. And so I can't understand God as a heavenly father. I do just want to gently say, hey, man, we're not supposed to live earthly father up. We're supposed to live heavenly Father down. And what I mean by that is we shouldn't be looking at our earthly dads, who are all flawed and imperfect, and then transmuting that up and going, well, God must be like, it's the exact opposite. We should be looking at a perfect heavenly father and then transporting that down and going, this is what a good earthly father should be like. So I will just kind of quickly say that one last little thing that.

[C]

Can I have one more thing on that?

[A]

Please do.

[C]

It's interesting because, you know, you probably heard this before, but at this point, When Jesus hears this from God, there's no miracles, no ministry, no healing, no cross yet. And yet the Father is basically already telling Jesus, hey, like, I'm your dad, you're my son, I'm pleased with you. And we've heard that before. And yet people Forget Jesus is 30 at this point. And so he's been living in hidden, faithful service to the Lord for 30 years. And so, you know, if you think about what he's been doing, he's been basically practicing faithful, ordinary, not flashy, unseen obedience for 30 years. God sees what you do in secret, quiet, faithful obedience honors the Lord.

[A]

That's exactly right, man. It's the perfect. It's perfect picture of the gospel, that in the gospel, the verdict comes before the performance. And then before he's done anything good or bad, the Father's like, hey, I love you. I'm pleased with you. Yeah. Let me keep going on two other quick things here. Little side note, this is kind of a fun one. So only the Gospel of John records that. I think it's in John 1 or 2. It records that whenever John the Baptist looks at Jesus and goes, behold the Lamb of God, that takes away sins of the world. Only the Gospel of John, it sort of mysteriously records there were two people who became Jesus disciples at that moment. It mentions in verse 40 that Andrew, Simon, Peter's brother, was one of them. And then the other one, it doesn't give a name. Almost all Bible scholars are assuming that's because it was John himself that wrote the gospel. Because in the Gospel of John, he refuses to say his name. You'll notice that when you read the Gospel of John, he'll say, the one whom Jesus loved. He'll do the thing where he tells Peter, it'll say that the two of them took off, sprinting towards the empty tomb. And then he'll just say, you know, the other one outran Peter, I don't.

[B]

Even need to say my name.

[A]

I don't need to say my name. The other one outran Peter, you know, and it's like, it's him, it's clearly him, but he won't say his name. So it's interesting that John, who wrote the gospel, this was probably the moment he saw Jesus for the first time and became a disciple of Jesus. That's a little interesting. One last thing that we touched on but didn't deep dive into, that is just crazy cool. So, okay, so this is like one of the coolest things in the whole New Testament. So, all right, John the Baptist sees Jesus and he goes, behold the Lamb of God that takes away sins of the world. We've done the whole deep dives on lamb imagery before. There's one thing we have not mentioned that this is explicitly referencing. All right, so if you go back, this is so awesome. If you go back to the day of atonement in the Old Testament, remember, the whole day of atonement revolves around two goats, right? And what you got, just get this in your head. This can be really important. About 10 seconds. What you got is you got two identical goats. Bookmark that. Two identical goats, they end up having different purposes. They cast lots. On the day of atonement, one goat becomes the sacrificial goat, where they, they place the sins of the people on the goat and then slaughter it on behalf of the sins of people. The other goat is called the scapegoat. In fact, there's a very mysterious word in the Old Testament. Nobody really knows what it kind of meant. If I understand correctly, it's called the Azazel is what they call it. And it's called the scapegoat. So one goat gets slaughtered for the sins of the people. This other goat, the priest lays his hand on the head of the scapegoat, and then the scapegoat just is released to go free out into the wilderness. Okay, so fast forward to the crucifixion of Jesus. John the Baptist says, behold, the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. Fast forward to the crucifixion of Jesus. So the guy that was supposed to get crucified was a guy named Barabbas. Some texts, it's really interesting. Homework assignment. Go in your Bible and go read that account in the Gospel of Matthew only. And some of your Bibles are gonna have a little footnote. And if you go to the down to the bottom of the footnote, it says that his name, check this out, was Jesus Bar Abbas. Jesus Barabbas. Okay, now, so what does Barabbas mean? We've briefly hit this before. Bar obviously means son of Abba means father. So, bro, here's what you have. You have Jesus Christ, the son of God, the Father, and then you have a sinful criminal whose literal name is Jesus, son of the Father. Guess what? You got two identical lambs. One gets slaughtered and one goes free. Goes back to the day of atonement.

[B]

So cool.

[A]

Wow. Bald lamb. God takes away the sins of the world. Now let's get nuts. Let's get. Let's just, let's go, baby. So we, we're going to hit a bunch a few controversial things on this pod. We talked a lot in a sermon about the necessity of water baptism. And I don't care what you call it being filled. The Spirit. So let's do this. Let's theology nerd out for like 5, 6 minutes here. ChatGPT, will you please give a quick rundown of the. There's three primary theological positions on baptism. There are. There's the Catholic position, which I'll let you articulate and respond to here in a second. There's what's historically known as the paedobaptistic position, which is infant baptism. And you can talk about who does that and why they do it. And then there's There's Team Lake Point. There's Team Correct. There's what's called credo baptism. Yeah. Now will you please, for listeners, just explain the three primary positions and. And why we are what we are. Yeah.

[B]

I would love to actually start with what we all have in common. What these positions have in common. All. And this would be brief. All of them believe that baptism is a step of obedience.

[A]

So, like, wait, I'm sorry. I'm gonna say one more thing. All right, as you're listening, here's what I need you to do while he's talking in the next few minutes. So there's some very emotional questions that people. That's why we called them frequently shouted questions. There's some very emotional questions people will ask about. Okay, my parents sprinkled me as a kid. Are you saying that I got to be baptized? There's a bunch of questions like that we're going to answer. If you have any of those questions, I need you to have those questions in your head while Paul is explaining the positions, because that's going to help de. Emotionalize it and help you get a biblical answer to your question.

[B]

100%.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

No, there's a few things that they would all hold in common. Number one, they all believe that baptism is a step of obedience. So in the New Testament, there's no such thing as an unbaptized Christian.

[A]

Just let's say one more time. Yeah, say that one more time. That's important for all the views.

[B]

What they would all say is that in the New Testament, there is no such thing as an unbaptized Christian.

[A]

Interesting. I'm not sure I agree with that.

[B]

Except you say the man on the cross.

[A]

I'll give a couple. I'll give a couple. We'll come back to it. This is fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Number two, I'll say this. There's no such thing as a Christian in the New Testament who intentionally chooses not to be baptized.

[B]

That's probably a better way to say it. I was trying to say it way too simply and cleanly. That's a much better way to say it. Number two, it's a one time event. All of them would say it's a one time event. Number three, it demonstrates our union with Christ and his death, burial and resurrection. So we all have some things in common, but we do differ on basically kind of three different categories. Who it's for, how it's done, and then what it does, who it's for, how it's done, what is. Actually, I think we have a chart that we're going to put on the screen.

[C]

It's going to be a great episode today.

[B]

We got to bring a table out.

[A]

Shark baby.

[B]

If nothing else, just to help keep it simple, especially for those of you who are watching. Yeah. So three views. Roman Catholic. Although as I'll, I'll go and say now, Lutherans and Church of Christ also believe some of what Roman Catholics believe, but I won't focus as much on them. Roman Catholic, Protestant Pedo Baptist and Protestant Credo Baptist. So I'll actually just go through each category one time. Who is for a Roman Catholic would say infants of those who are already in the Catholic Church or believers who come to know Jesus but they weren't a part of the Catholic Church as an infant. And so for Protestant Pedal Baptist it.

[A]

Would be again, heads up here if you're curious here. In a second we're going to respond to a quick video from Father Mike maybe Schmidt, I can't remember.

[C]

I think, I think so.

[A]

Where he articulates why Catholics believe that.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And we lovingly disagree. We lovingly know they're wrong.

[B]

Yeah. And maybe even after I go through the three, these three, I'll give kind of three big reasons why we land where we do.

[A]

How about that?

[B]

Protestant paedobaptists also would baptize infants of those who parents are already in the church. And then believers come to faith outside of the church. Protestant Credo Baptist would say, nope, only believers who have themselves personally placed a profession of faith in Jesus Christ. So we would not baptize infants how it's done. Roman Catholics typically pouring. Protestant paedobaptists would be typically sprinkling or pouring. Although sometimes emergent, it's not completely universal. There are some exceptions. Protestant Credo Baptist almost completely by immersion, except in extreme circumstances. So if you're out in the Middle east or someplace that doesn't have water, you can completely submerge in. There's allowances allowed. But the reason we do that is because baptizo, the word that baptism comes from most commonly means to dunk, to immerse.

[A]

Can I interrupt and ask a question you may not know the answer to this question is the reason that paedo Baptists do the sprinkling? I may be answering my own question in my head. Do they do that because of old? Do they do that because in their minds it's an old Covenant, new Covenant continuity thing? And in the old Covenant they did that deal where they would sprinkle the blood on the. Is that where they get that?

[B]

I think that's some of it. I honestly I, I, I can't, I don't know enough of all the details to give a confidence off the top of head. But that would be one others that I've heard that talked about it. There's actually reference in John 3 which Father Mike talks about some about the idea of cleaning with baptized, not Sorry, it doesn't say baptized. Basically you have to be born again by water and spirit. That's actually referencing Ezekiel 36 where it talks about I will sprinkle you with clean water. So that's, that's actually reference to that, not to baptism, but that's why they do it.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

And okay, yeah. So let' about what it does. This is where I'd even say the bigger differences really start. Roman Catholics would say it initiates the person into salvation. It removes original sin and confers regeneration and saving grace. Put it shortly, baptism actually saves you, but I put it initiates the person tells salvation. Because people have to understand. Catholics and Protestants have a very different understanding of salvation. For a Catholic, it's more of a state of grace that you can go in and out of and so you can initiate a person into salvation. But they, they can fall out of that state by what they would call mortal sins, which you deal with confession and penance kind of a thing. But basically I believe that baptism saves you and it brings that person into the Catholic Church. A Protestant Paedo Baptist would come at differently. Baptism doesn't save a person, it points expectantly to their salvation in the future. That must still happen. So a Protestant paedobaptist, Presbyterian, Methodist mothers, they would say this isn't saving this baby, but we are doing this in faith as a family, in the expectation that one day they will be saved.

[A]

Is it true, false or neither? That what dedicating your child is to a Baptist pedo baptism is to a Presbyterian.

[B]

I would argue it's very, very close.

[A]

Because I've heard them. I've heard paedobaptists kind of half jokingly make fun of people like us when actually we don't do baby dedications at Lake Point. We do parent dedications. And there's theological reason for that. But I've heard them sort of half jokingly make fun of baptism that dedicate their babies and they call them. Oh, that's a dry baptism.

[B]

Yeah, it's close. There are some slight differences, but that's actually, I'll go ahead and say it now in case I forget to say it later for my fellow Credo Baptists out there. For people who had only baptized believers, one of my pet peeves is when those who would agree with me would look at a Paedo Baptist and say, oh, well, that was stupid and it didn't mean anything. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Your parents were dedicating you to the Lord. They were doing that and what they believed was obedience. And they were doing it with the expectation and hope and prayer that you're one day faith of your own. So please, if you're a fellow creative Baptist, don't, don't mock it. Don't be a jerk. We can say, hey, in a minute like we were going to talk about. We don't believe it's the biblical model of baptism, but still affirm what the parents were wanting to do for their child. The other big thing it does in the Paedo Baptist tradition is it brings the person into the visible local church. So they are actually a part of what they would consider the New covenant community. So big thing here, they believe that baptism is the New Testament equivalent of circumcision in the same way that circumcision was the entrance into the covenant of the Old Testament people of God. Baptism is now the New Testament equivalent of that.

[A]

So again, they're not saved, but believe that as well. Just with a nuance, Right?

[B]

A little bit of a nuance. We would say that they are.

[A]

We still say it's a covenant symbol.

[B]

Yeah, we would. Oh, big time. That's why, actually, what makes this conversation really tough is that there are caricatures and straw men in every direction, and then we lean into those and it's hard. We end up talking past each other instead of actually having meaningful conversations with each other. Okay. A Protestant Credo Baptist is different. So whereas a Roman Catholic would say we're baptizing and therefore Saving them. A Paedo Baptist is Protestant, say, no, no, we're pointing to their future salvation. A Credo Baptist say, we're pointing to their salvation. That's already happened. So they're not being saved right now. We're not hoping they're going to be saved. We're doing this because they are already saved. That's the huge difference. I'll tell you why we do that here in just a minute. And then finally they would. It signifies that a person is part of the invisible universal church. They're already a part of the global people of God.

[A]

You're talking about incredo baptism.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In credo Baptism, we're saying baptism is the public symbol. You are born again in the invisible heavenlies. And part of the. That's right, exactly.

[B]

They're already a part of the universal church when they place their faith in Jesus. And now they're going into a local church. Good.

[A]

Yeah. For listeners, Paul's using. He's using a little theological distinction that's really helpful is theologians will often distinguish between the visible and the invisible church. And the visible church is when you walk into a church, all the people you see, that's visible church. But all of us know Jesus said, hey, man, I'm going to separate wheat from tares. And you're not going to know who those are until the end of time. So when. When Paul is talking about the invisible church, he's talking about people who are actually regenerate, born again, saved. And really, until Christ returns, we're not going to know who among the visible church were also a part of the invisible church. That's what he means there. Sorry.

[B]

No, it's good. Let me just give a brief reason, three big reasons why we land where we land at Lake Point, and we believe creative baptism is the right way to go about this. There are really three big things. Number one, it has the strongest scriptural case. Number two, it preserves the meaning of baptism. And then number three, it protects the gospel. Now, let me kind of double click on each of these. It has the strongest scriptural case, both in the sense of the clear pattern. That is, there is that baptism always follows personal faith and repentance. But then also there's a lack of a clear command. So there's the presence of a clear command.

[A]

Always?

[B]

Yes, always.

[A]

Literally every time. In the New Testament, baptism is subsequent to salvation.

[B]

Some people would throw out there, well, what about the household baptism? That's an argument of silence.

[A]

You talk about the Philippian jailer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And his whole household. But we don't but what we would say is, bro, you know, nothing. That's an argument from.

[B]

Argument from silence.

[A]

What we would say is that. That good dad went home, shared the Gospel with his family, and they came to faith.

[B]

Exactly. And in some places, like in the Book of Acts, Cornelius and his household, it says they all spoke in tongues. So if you're saying an infant was there at that point, you're gonna have to believe that. So an infant was speaking in tongues. So that's not every case.

[A]

I mean, Hudson, there were things that I wondered.

[B]

It's a stretch. Well, but so maybe say so again. What is there is a clear pattern. What is not there is a clear command. So here's if, like, let's say I was sitting down with either Roman Catholic or Presbyterian methods, really any who's paed a Baptist, here's the conversation of how to go with them is to say, okay, so do you think an infant can be baptized or should be baptized?

[A]

That's good.

[B]

They're going to say should. They're not going to say. They're going to say should. So I'm like, okay, so what you're telling me is you're binding not just my conscience, but the conscience of every Christian everywhere, that this is something they have to do. And should they say yes. I'm like, but you're telling me there's no clear command to tell me to do that. Whereas in the Old Testament, there was a clear command to circumcise children and not even, by the way, alternate just boys. But now you're saying to me that I have to do this, even though there's no clear scriptural command. And by the way, anywhere else that people do this, you would say they're illegitimately binding someone's conscience if there's no clear command. And they would say, yes. And then they would probably fire back at me and say, well, Paul, it's because it's so obvious that this is the New Testament version of circumcision. So of course they don't have to say it because it's not there. My response to that would be, well, if it's so obvious, why do we have no record of infant baptisms until the late one hundreds?

[A]

Early.

[B]

I'm sorry, the late. Yeah, late one hundreds and early two hundreds, the first references to infant baptism. And even then, Tertullian, at that time actually wrote a treatise against infant baptism.

[A]

I didn't know that.

[B]

So if it's so obvious, really, why.

[A]

Is it that Tertullian did.

[B]

Yeah, we have no record of infant baptism, Clear records for the first 150 years after Jesus and the early apostles. And when we do have records, there's some early church fathers who are actually saying, don't baptize your infants. If it's so abundantly clear and obvious.

[C]

Paul, somebody might say to that. And we're about to respond to Father Mike Schmidt's. But then, but then the church did for like thousands of years, right?

[A]

Oh, it did.

[B]

For thousands of years.

[C]

The Catholic Church.

[B]

That's right, it did. But this is actually one of the.

[A]

Classified popes and they also did indulgences and they also had a bunch of artifacts.

[B]

One of the classic things that mysticans say, oh, Protestantism is new. Well, it is in the sense of. It is a renewal movement. When you renew something, you're actually trying to go back and take it back to the way it originally looked. And so say, yeah, it's long standing. But again, if I don't have a clear practice, let's say it again. For the first 150 years after it was done. So, like this is. Oh yeah, there's no clear record of us having a congress or a president or whatever for the first 150 years of the Constitution at that point. It's like, that's a long time. That's a long time.

[C]

Between the two Protestant groups, what's the majority right now?

[B]

Say that again.

[C]

Between the two Protestant groups, Credo and peto, what's the majority numerically?

[B]

I would say credo.

[A]

Not close. Yeah, it's not among Protestants. It's not close. I would guess.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. And even for those. Listen, maybe not familiar with these terms. Credo typically would be Baptist or large non denominational church or really any non denominational church would be.

[A]

We should have done this first. Yeah. Can you just explain what those two terms, why it's called pedo baptism, which pedo comes from shady sounding. Paedo baptism. Explain that real quick.

[B]

We need better words. We pick the worst words, sometimes unction. Okay. These others, whatever. Pedo literally comes from the Greek word that means child. You know, in this case they would say infant. Credo literally just means the idea of belief, the idea of profession of faith or belief kind of a thing. That's what that's referring to. So it's. We've got, I think the best scriptural case. The other thing, it preserves the meaning of baptism. If baptism is a symbol and sign that I am beginning the Christian life, it should be for those who have begun the Christian life.

[A]

Like, ah, that's Good.

[B]

That's. That's really it. Also, it's a picture of our union. I said this earlier, of our.

[A]

Of the.

[B]

Basically our union with Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection. That doesn't apply to infants. It doesn't apply to infants. Finally, it protects the gospel. Now, we'll be careful here, because Roman Catholic, even Church of Christ and Lutheran, who also believe in baptismal regeneration, they would say, hey, this isn't a work. Rather, this is the means by which God works to give us salvation. I'm like, okay, even if that's true, that is such a fine line. That is incredibly difficult for this to not basically go to where Paul goes in Galatians. And what I mean by that is, in Galatians, there were people who were.

[A]

Saying, this is a really good point.

[B]

This is a huge point. They were saying, hey, in addition to having faith in Jesus, you also have to be circumcised. And so now people say, hey, in addition to having faith in Jesus, you also have to be baptized. It's. I'm not, you know, I'm not saying that they all actually believe it. It's just hard not to get there and have it not to slip into that. Whereas you also. See, and this is why it's important not just to read isolated verses, but Amalia. Paul in Romans 10 talks about whoever confesses with their mouth that Jesus is the Lord and believes in their heart that he is raised from the grave, they will be saved. So he doesn't add, oh, and if you're baptized, we're not saying baptism isn't important, by the way. We believe it's a command that has to be obeyed. We're just not. We're just saying that it doesn't actually save you.

[A]

Yeah. And let me just double click on this. And then let's go to the Father, Mike. Deal.

[B]

Please do.

[A]

So to Paul's point, let me just summarize. There's no such thing as a command in the New Testament to baptize your child. There's no such thing. There is. Further, there is no example of an infant being baptized. That. And then you also have just the nature of what baptism is like, even. Just think about the symbol. It's okay. It's, you know, dead, buried, raised. It's clearly implying unification with Christ and the cleansing of sins. We all know from about a hundred bajillion verses, you are not united with Christ and you are not forgiven of your sins until you place your faith in Jesus. That's the entire Gospel. So you stack those three things together. And then I'll just add one thing. So you have. This is why I objected to what you said earlier. I think you have at least three examples in the New Testament of unbaptized, saved people. You have Thief on the Cross. Does anybody want to. This is a little cheating, but can anybody remember any of the others?

[B]

I've been Googling my brain to figure it out.

[A]

All right, so Thief on the Cross. When Jesus does the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, the tax collector does the prayer. Father beats his breast and makes the prayer. And then Jesus says, I tell you, this man went home justified. So Jesus in the parable is saying, the guy that was penitent and had faith went home. And he was. Present tense is justified. No baptism. No baptism. And then the third one, I think is Zacchaeus. So you have Zacchaeus's regeneration. He immediately does this whole. He clearly has faith in Jesus. There's evidence of repentance. Remember what Jesus says? He says, that's it.

[B]

It.

[C]

Salvation has come to this place today.

[A]

Salvation has come to this house. No baptism. So, by the way, let me just say this. What we're not saying is that it's not important. It's real important. We'll talk about that here in a second. Yeah, let's. Let's debunk Father Mike Schmidt. By the way, man, this is a shout out if Father Mike watches this. Bro, we're trying. We can't beat you on the. On the podcast rankings.

[B]

We've.

[A]

I think. Didn't we ping up to number two once?

[C]

We were like, ah, no, we were number two or number three.

[D]

We got three.

[A]

Three's highest. But we can't get old Father Mike, man. So we're coming for you, Father.

[C]

He's got two. He's got like a daily one and another one. So maybe. Maybe this will help.

[A]

I don't know. You know what we need? You know what we need? We just. What we need is, like, however many trillions of dollars the Catholic Church has putting paid ads behind our podcast, and then we'll crush.

[B]

We'll take it.

[A]

That's the joke. All right, so this is Paul. I want you to respond to this. This is his explanation of the Catholic position that essentially, baptism saves you, you. And so watch this. And then I want you to respond to this.

[D]

A lot of times there are some. Some non Catholic Christians who see baptism as merely symbolic.

[B]

It's.

[D]

It's not. It's not efficacious is the word. It just is an expression of an already pre existing faith.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

The interesting thing about that is that that was never expressed in the Bible. In fact, the Bible talks about it like this. You know, actually. Well, how about this? In John chapter 3, Jesus is talking to Nicodemus and he says, unless you're born again of water in the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

[A]

Can you respond?

[B]

Yep, can do. So oftentimes that is taken by people to mean baptism, but it's actually not referring to baptism. Instead that it is referring to Ezekiel chapter 36, where it says, I will give you a new heart and a new spirit. I will put within you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh, and I will put my spirit within you. Which sounds very much like what we hear in John 3 and cause you to walk. My statues, obey my rules, and I will sprinkle you with clean water and cleanse you.

[A]

Bingo. And.

[B]

And so really what you get there is Jesus is alluding to Ezekiel, which is both about really the idea of the new covenant coming out and the idea of him pouring out his spirit. And it's about the new birth. It's not about baptism.

[A]

Okay, so, and then in Ezekiel, what's the water represent there?

[B]

I think it's just the idea of some kind of a cleansing, cleansing act. And also what you see sometimes, even in the Book of John, that oftentimes it'll use the spirit and then another metaphor up beside, but it means they'll.

[A]

Do the same thing.

[B]

Spirit and then wind, it's referring to the same. It doesn't have to mean there's a completely different things.

[A]

Just because it's spirit and fire, that doesn't mean I gotta go hop in my fireplace.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Spirit and wind. I don't gotta go stand in front of a windmill. Yes, yeah, exactly. All right, let's keep going.

[D]

So this is pretty powerful. You know, from the very beginning, the church saw those words of Jesus talking to Nicodemus, baptism, or unless you're born again of water in the spirit, they saw that, that as baptism. Now that wasn't, well, a couple hundred years, bunch of hundred years. A long time later, people had the thought of like, no, no, no, maybe that means something different. Maybe that's Jesus is saying, unless you're born of water, that means like natural birth, you have to be born first and of the spirit, like that's some kind of spiritual kind of a thing, then you can't enter heaven. But for centuries, millennia now, Christians have always understood that to be baptism, the necessity of baptism. In fact, in the Acts of the Apostles, it says, be baptized then for the forgiveness of your sins. The baptism is talked about as if it actually does something right. It's efficacious.

[A]

So he's obviously quoting Acts, chapter two. They say, what must we do to be saved? And Peter's response is repent and be baptized. So Paul, doesn't that clearly mean that in order to be saved, you have to both repent and be baptized?

[B]

Exactly. A few things here. Number one, this actually helps set up to a huge verse that he'll throw out here in a bit, which is 1 Peter 3, 21.

[A]

That's the biggie.

[B]

And I think we need to remember the whole context of scripture and of the Gospels. In the book of Acts, the last thing that Jesus tells the apostles to do is to go and make disciples baptizing them. And so it's a kind of. It's a coupled thing. It is a coupled thing. There's not supposed to be this long delay between someone becoming a disciple of Jesus and being baptized. And in fact, if you look through where Peter is involved in people's baptism, it's always immediate. It's right then. And so you don't have this distance between the two things. So that's one thing is I'd say, hey, part of it is the idea of, hey, you're repenting and being baptized, because it is expected to all happen now. Not that baptism is what saved you. Baptism is the act that you take to publicly identify with Christ because he has already saved you. And if you don't agree with this, I'd say, okay, so let's just imagine a scenario. I've done this before, actually. Some Catholic brothers and sisters. And by the way, I love that he called non Catholic Christians Christians. I. I caught that briefly. And not everyone is that generous. Generous. It's probably why Father Mike is number two or three.

[A]

And he's got good hair.

[B]

He's the beginning of a Catholic. I mean, get into a joke. A handsome Catholic priest comes onto a podcast.

[A]

But if he was El Salvadorian, I think he might look.

[B]

So here's my question. So. And by the way, I would have brought this up with first. First Peter.

[A]

Keep going, keep going.

[C]

Those blue eyes, man.

[B]

I'll bring us back. I'll bring this back.

[A]

Is.

[B]

Okay, so let's imagine a scenario. Okay? So thousands of people were saved at Pentecost, right? They get in a line to be baptized. What if one of them dies in line Hell, does that mean he wasn't saved? Does that mean that he wasn't regenerate? That he, in that moment, he didn't have the spirit, he wasn't born again, he was going to go to hell. And they were like, well, no, of course. I'm like, so what you just told me is that it wasn't actually being baptized that saved him. Because if he was saved but he had not been baptized, you yourself would admit that that is not what saved you. Another thing I'm going to go ahead and do here, and actually we'll have to do a lot less when we get to first Peter 3. This is a fancy term, but it's really important. Metonymy. Metonymy. What that word means.

[A]

You said metonymy.

[B]

Metonymy or metonymy.

[D]

Metonymy.

[A]

I'm about to learn something.

[B]

Actually kind of does sound like.

[A]

The.

[B]

Idea is it is a part of something that can refer to the whole of something. So like, for example, we. This is not so much used now, but. But if your business executives walk into the hall, oh, here come the suits. Now, they're not literally in that moment just referring to the suits they're wearing. That suit represents the whole of the thing. Or even think about in Scripture, do we believe the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin and saves us? Of course we do. Scripture says, well, but does that mean that Jesus could have just gotten a paper cut and bled and that would have covered the deal?

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

No, because in that moment, his blood is not just referencing his blood, it's referencing the whole of the gospel of what happening, including his death. And so often, I believe what is happening is that baptism is used as metonymy. It is used as part of again, because in their mind, you repent, you believe, and you're baptized all at one time. So it is a part that represents the whole. Those are a few thoughts.

[D]

It's not merely an expression of belief. It's not merely symbolic. It is actually powerful. It does something. In fact, St. Peter, when he's writing in the New Testament, he says, baptism saves you now. The baptism saves you now you.

[C]

That's it.

[A]

That's 1 Peter 2.

[B]

Is it says 3:21.

[A]

3:21 baptism quote, which now saves you. That's the biggie.

[B]

And this is the one again, this one, whether you are Roman Catholic, Lutheran Church, Christ, they would say this like, all right, that's it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have any more conversation?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

A few things there. First, the verse and passage that those words are in is incredibly Complex and confusing. Actually, let me just read them for us. Because if you go back to a few verses, to verse 18, it says this. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous, for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey. When God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought from, or brought safely through water baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is one of the most debated passages in the entire New Testament.

[A]

Yeah, it's a. It's a weird, like, what the heck is going on?

[B]

It is a what the heck is going on? People usually land in two or three camps of even, what does it mean? What, Jesus went and preached the spirits. It is a very complex verse that you just took a few words from and presented it as very clear when it's actually really confusing. And then let's even talk about the idea of, you know, now baptism, which isn't a type of this now saves you. Well, a type of what? It's not referring to, actually to the ark. This is what people get wrong about this. It's referring to the water, water in the Old Testament flood, which is kind of weird when you think about it, because the water in the Old Testament flood was not an instrument of salvation, judgment. It was an instrument of judgment. So this verse is saying baptism, which now is a type of this saves you. So you're saved by going through judgment, which, yes, that's what this is saying. But my point is, once you actually zoom out from these few words, it shows it is really confusing. And a core biblical principle is we don't build major doctrines by what is confusing, but by what is clear and consistent through the rest of the Bible.

[A]

So one of the most important rules of biblical interpretation is, hey, let's interpret unclear passages in light of clear passages. Let's not interpret clear passages in light of unclear passages.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And, guys, the number of verses that make it clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, quote apart from works is stacked a mile high, you know, is literally as basic as John 3. 16.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You know, there's nothing, you know, and.

[B]

That'S where even just as you run into these things, I'm like, does that mean that even Like I quoted earlier, Romans 10. Does that mean the Bible is contradicting each other? No. What happens is you have these different verses and you got to put them up in tension and say, okay, how do we make sense of all this? But to say this, it really, I would say, contradicts the rest. If this. If you take these verses in isolation. Go ahead. I have one more point to make, actually, real quick, just real quickly. I would also have told him, hey, if. Let's say we were just sitting together at this table, say, hey, Father Mike, can we just read the rest of the verse? Because you only just read those few words. I actually read them out loud, but let me repeat them. Baptism, which corresponds to this now, saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body. So it literally says, not simply because you got in the water and were baptized. This wouldn't have made sense if he was literally just referring to dirt on someone's body. No one would have been expecting him to say this. What this is really saying is, like, this isn't about how it somehow magically cleanses your soul. Actually, the word here is not so much. It's sarks, that it's. Your body's referred to as sarks. But some people would say is it's more of a moral state, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience. Well, let's think about this for a second day of Pentecost. Other times that Peter baptized, it was instantaneous, not instantaneously. It was immediately after they placed faith. Probably what would happen is probably what I've seen happen when other people are baptized right after they believe. And I've seen we do spontaneous baptism when people are called, they're being baptized. And usually in that moment is when they are actually saying, father, forgive me of my sins, Jesus, thank you, friend. Cleanse me of my sin. And so in that moment, this actually just said, what does not save is not the water. And just magically being baptized, it is the appeal of a good conscience to God. It is pleading to God to save them, of which baptism is that expression? And so maybe putting it like this briefly. Sorry, Carl. Now we gotta keep moving. When Elisha commanded Naaman to go into the waters to be healed of his leprosy, was it the water that magically healed him?

[A]

Of course not.

[B]

No, it was the faith and obeying the command that did that.

[A]

And you think that's what's going on in the first Peter?

[B]

It preceded that? Yeah, exactly. It's like faith precedes baptism. So again, going back to Pentecost, the people that were in line to be baptized. It's not like all of a sudden, if one died for the gallons of water, that they wouldn't have been saved. No, they had the faith. They were simply waiting to be able to express the faith they already had. Right.

[C]

Trinity. Let's play that one last minute. And then, Pastor Josh, I have a couple questions.

[A]

Just really practical questions.

[C]

Frequently shouted questions. That's right.

[D]

But if there's a baby getting baptized, how can that baby have faith?

[A]

It does.

[D]

Great question, camper. Maybe it's not the baby's faith that's operative in this situation.

[A]

If you go back to Mark's Gospel.

[D]

Chapter two, there's this story. I know you know this story. It's the story of this paralyzed man. Man, the paralytic. He's on a mat, and he has four friends who are carrying him to Jesus. But there's so many people who want to come to Jesus to be healed that they can't get him in the house. So what do the four friends do? They climb up on the roof, they do a little remodeling, make a little skylight there, a little Chip and Joanna Gaines kind of situation, and they lower the man down on the mat in front of Jesus. The next line in Mark's gospel and in Matthew's Gospel is when Jesus saw their faith, meaning the faith of the friends.

[A]

Oh, don't do it, Mike.

[D]

He says to the man, your sins are forgiven.

[B]

Don't do it.

[A]

Don't do it.

[D]

So it's not the man's faith itself. Himself. It's not him. It's not his faith that speaks for him. It's actually the faith of the four friends that speaks for the man. And if that can happen with this man who's paralyzed and his four friends, don't do it, that also is operative. That also can happen in baptism, because here's parents who profess the faith. In fact, the rite of baptism is the parents and God. Parents profess the faith, and this is the faith in which we want this child to be baptized.

[B]

So three things here, and they kind of build on each other. Number one, we have to distinguish between instrumental faith and substitutionary faith. It was their instrumental faith that led them to take the man to Jesus, but their faith was not substituting for his. Because actually, with that, why, number two, do we assume he didn't have faith? Do we really think if he didn't have faith, like, I don't believe that.

[A]

I can believe this guy.

[B]

This Jesus is a fake. Do we think Jesus would have really healed him. Him. In fact, some people believe that when it says it's their faith, it's not just referring to the gods, but it's referring to the guy on the mat as well.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. That's what I've always heard. And when he says there, it's just a general plural.

[B]

And so what's interesting is actually Catholic teaching would hold that once you become of an age of accountability, you have to have faith to be baptized. And so in other words, you can't. Parents at that point could substitute their faith for them. So he used an example where it's a grown man who would have then had to have faith, but now he's saying they're substituting their faith for him. And the Catholics don't believe you can do that. It just kind of goes in circles. It goes number three, if the guy didn't have faith, which I believe he actually did, but if he didn't have faith, then my question is, so what's the limits here?

[A]

So like, can I have. On behalf of the China. Yeah.

[B]

Can I behave on the.

[A]

On behalf of an unbeliever, my friend.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Like, because if you're going to take this and apply it to a context that, as we just showed, doesn't have a one to one comparison, then there are no limits. Can I have faith on behalf of someone actually doesn't believe in Jesus? Of course not. So those are a few points there.

[A]

Frequently shouted questions.

[C]

That's right. So let's get practical. So, Pastor Josh, if somebody says, this is. Honestly, I hear this a lot.

[A]

Oh, this is huge.

[C]

If I was baptized as a baby in the Catholic Church or whatever, should I be baptized again?

[A]

Yes, you should. Here's why I'd say that. So first of all, we got to go back to what is baptism? Baptism is an outward expression of an inward reality of grace. Amen. I have placed my faith in Jesus. By my faith I have been cleansed of my sins and united with Christ. The old me is dead and I've been raised to newness of life. I don't got to do the things I used to do because in Christ I'm not the person I used to be. That was not true of you when you were an infant and you were baptized, baptized before you had faith. So just be really honest. Baptism is an expression of your faith when you are quote. In fact, I would object to using the word baptism. So what I would say is, man, I would just lovingly say, I would just lovingly say that, man, when you got water sprinkled on you as an infant, you got wet. I would not call that baptism because that was not an expression of your faith. And by the way, to Paul's point, this is thing that was an expression of your parents faith. And just heads up, God didn't save last names, he saves first names. So I would say, yes, you absolutely do need to be baptized again. Now the question that especially Catholics, and I've just said this and Carlos, you can object to this if you'd like or correct me here. You're not hurt my feelings. What I've noticed is especially Hispanic Catholics because there's such, by the way, and this is a good thing that we need to learn from them. There's such a high value on family and Hispanic culture. A lot of Hispanic Catholics that were baptized, that were sprinkled as infants, they honestly have a guilt because they're like, dude, I feel like I'm betraying my mom and my dad by doing this. Now what I would say is, no, no, actually it's the opposite is you're ratifying and dignifying what your parents wanted for you. I would just reframe that in your head. No, no. In fact, when you go talk to your mom and dad about it, what you should say is not mom and dad. You really screwed up as a kid. You know, what you should say is mom and dad. Dad, thank you so much for from the time I was an infant pointing me to Jesus and I have now made my own decision to follow Christ and be baptized. And so I'm ratifying the decision you made when I was an infant. So yes, they do.

[C]

I was sprinkled as a baby.

[A]

There you go, There you go. By the way, that's my wife's story. Jana was sprinkled in the, I think it was Methodist church as an infant. And then when she was converted in senior year of college, baptized again. No shame.

[C]

There you go. I'm a parent and my 7 year old trusted Christ last night. Should I just baptize him immediately?

[A]

Yeah. So let me just say this and this is one where it's like, it's more wisdom than Bible verse. There's not a Bible verse I can point to and go, here's how you do it. So then I got to use pastoral wisdom. This is a warning I would give to parents is I do feel like sometimes at really, really young conversions is what you said. My six or seven year old, I prayed with them to, you know, believe Jesus before Bedtime and then they'll rush him into baptism. And man, honestly, with kids more than adults, hey man, we really don't know the why. We need, we need to be discerning about the why of why they prayed with you. Hey man, was it because they saw three of their friends get baptized at church and they want to. I want to be like my friends. That's how six year olds work. So again, let's go back to what baptism is. It's an outward expression of an inward reality of new birth. So what I would say is what you don't want to do is you have a very young child that expresses faith in some way. I would, I would caution, don't rush them into the water and accidentally, potentially give them a false assurance of something that wasn't genuine conversion. Yet what we did with our kids kids is after they expressed faith, we were watching as parents for age appropriate signs of genuine conversion in their life. So it's like a couple things I'll tell you to watch out for. Do they keep asking. So hey man, if they're like consistently like, hey, mom and dad, I really feel like I need to do this, that's a good sign. You got evidence of the Holy Spirit convicting them to do what God wants them to do. Are you seeing age appropriate remorse for sin? Born again people have remorse for sin. Age appropriate. Are you seeing age appropriate love for the Lord? We're not talking about like they're acting like John Owen when they're seven. You know, it's like, no, no, like eight in a, in a seven year old way. Are they showing love for the Lord? And as soon as you see it, I'd say go for it.

[C]

That's great. So somebody still wrestling and just trying to bring clarity to everything that was just shared right now. Okay, so Pastor Josh, are you saying that I do not need to be baptized to be saved?

[A]

I am saying that. I'm saying that again, we're saved by grace. Apart from work works. In fact, I'll go back to this actual passage. So John the Baptist guy's a little baptism line going, and then he looks up, he's like, oh dang, Jesus is in the line. And John the Baptist goes, he essentially has a, you know, who am I? I need to be baptized by you. What the heck are you doing? And Jesus says, this is fitting quote to fulfill all righteousness. I think what's going on there is the whole purpose of Jesus living his sinless life, his perfect life life is for him to live a substitutionary life. So that every work required for a person to have been perfect. Jesus accomplished with his perfect life. So Jesus was not baptized because he needed his sins cleansed. He didn't have any sins. I think Jesus was baptized for the sin. And it is a sin for the sin of saved people who never get baptized. And he did it on their behalf to fulfill all righteousness on their behalf, if that makes sense. So again, I'll point back to thief on the cross, not baptized. Tax collector that went home justified, not baptized. Zacchaeus, salvation has come to your house today. Not baptized. So, no, you don't gotta be baptized in order to be saved. But what I would say is this real dang important.

[B]

Yeah. Can I add something to that? And again, it's going to sound at first like I'm contradicting, but I'm really not. It's like in Christian thought, especially in Protestant thought, is like, are good works necessary for salvation? No, if by that you mean we have to do a certain amount of good and not do a certain amount in order to be saved. But yes, if you mean that after you are saved, man, you seek, you want to please God and you want to obey Jesus. And so there has to be some kind of an evidence, like the thief on the cross, an example that you don't have to do any good works to be saved because he couldn't. But he's also, he died after that. Whereas them the evidence that Jesus has done a work in your life, does that mean you're going to want to obey him and change? And so I will say for those who are like, it's one thing that maybe people aren't baptized because of fear of the water or whatever. But if you're like, no, I just won't do it, I refuse to. I'm like, I would have the same level of fears. May be too hard for. But like, if I met someone who's like, I will not give up this sin in my life, that's not the baptism, but another one, I refuse him. Like, you got to really ask yourself, man, is like refusing to obey Jesus.

[A]

Did I really bend my knee to the Lord's?

[B]

So it's not that you're not going to be saved because it's just, hey, it's probably. If you're just refusing to, it's probably a good to stop and ask, why am I refusing to obey Jesus right now? What made that show the mic state of my heart?

[C]

Last one, I was baptized a long time ago, and when I got saved, I was Baptized a long time ago when I got saved when I was younger, but I strayed from God. Now I'm recommitting my life to Jesus. Should I get baptized again?

[A]

No, you should, man. Baptism is one and done. We already mentioned that. And a lot of people do this. Let me just say it's a. It's a well meaning mistake. Yes, it's a. Let me just honor. It's a well meaning mistake. Nope, nope. If you have been baptized subsequent to your salvation, doesn't matter if you strayed and are come back to the Lord. That's not how you rededicate your life to Christ. Baptism is a visible symbol of salvation, not a visible symbol of rededication. So no man, just. Just repent. Start following Jesus. You're going to do great.

[C]

That's great. Amen. So Jesus was baptized with water. He was a model for us. And the Bible says that the Spirit descended upon him. But then John said some verses literally like right before he said that Jesus would baptize you and I, if you're a Christian, that's you as well with the Holy Spirit and fire. So is the baptism of the Holy Spirit a thing?

[A]

Yeah, this was. Let me just talk about some things that didn't make it into the sermon here. I'll try to do this briefly, but I will be honest. Some of this stuff, this is the exact. This is why I do this podcast, because this is the stuff I would die to fit in a sermon. And I just, I never got time. Okay, so quick, theology of this. First of all, a ton of unnecessary denominational fights happen over quote unquote, baptism of the Holy Spirit. And again, I'm gonna go back to whatever you call it, you want to call it baptism, spirit being filled with the Spirit, unction. I don't care what you call it, whatever you rededicate your life. I don't care what you call it. Okay, so let me just say where Pentecostal people can get it wrong. And let me talk about where some, especially like my team, I come from a Baptist team, where we can it wrong. So what, where. Here's what's wrong. When you'll hear some Pentecostal people say things like, well, if you haven't been spirit baptized, you don't even have the Holy Spirit. Wrong, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Romans 8, 9. Specifically says, if anybody doesn't have the spirit of Christ, they don't belong to Christ. And in fact, you go back to the beginning of the Gospel of John. I'm Going to shoot you really straight, man. No one would ever even get saved, saved if the Holy Spirit was not actively at work in and on their life. You would never have chosen to believe in Jesus and you never would have chosen to repent of your sins unless the Holy Spirit had done a renewing work inside of you. So it's simply wrong when a Pentecostal person is like, oh man, you haven't been spirit baptized. So that's salvation. You don't got the Holy Spirit? Nope. Everyone who belongs to Christ has the spirit of God at work inside of them. Okay, now here's where my team can get it wrong is some people say, no, man, once you're saved, you've got everything. There's nothing else to get. Stop seeking something you've already got. Okay, and dude, I want to point this out, and this does get me in a little hot water because the team I come from, but I'll just point this out. That is simply not the pattern of the New Testament. It is simply not. In fact, I'll point this out. Out. I'll give three examples. You have Jesus breathe. A lot of people miss this. Jesus breathes on the disciples in John chapter 20. And essentially I think the Gospel is signifying. This is the moment when it was clear all of them had saving faith and understood the lordship of Jesus. And he breathes on them and he says, receive the Holy Spirit. This is John chapter 20. Just 50 ish days later, later in Acts chapter 2, after they have already received the Holy Spirit in Acts chapter two, the Spirit of God descends on them, you know, in the form of, you see, wind and fire. And the Acts chapter two specifically says they were filled with the Spirit. Question Paul and Carlos. How did people who already had received the Holy spirit in John 20, 50 days later, how are they filled with the Spirit? Because there is something that God has for Christians subsequent to their salvation that is a unique encounter with the Holy Spirit. I'll do two others real fast. In fact, take those same people. Those same people in Acts chapter two are filled with the Spirit. Do your homework later and go read Acts chapter 4. The exact same group in Acts 4 is filled with the Spirit again in Acts 4. So some impartation of the Spirit they did not have. They receive an experience in Acts chapter four. And then the big one that makes it really clear. And you know, pop quiz. This is not a trick question, class. When Paul writes the book of Ephesians to the church at Ephesus, is he writing to people who are Christians or people who are not Christians.

[C]

Christians.

[B]

What is Christians for?

[A]

What is Christians for Christians? And yet in Ephesians 5:18, he says, do not get drunk on wine. But. But. And he says to Christians, be filled with the Spirit. And the verb tense, there is an active verb tense. It's continually seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit. And he's talking to people who are already saved.

[B]

And it's a command.

[A]

It's a command. You are commanded as a Christian to, for the rest of your life, be seeking a fresh encounter and a fresh filling of the Holy Spirit. I hate this real fast in the sermon, but if you've never noticed this, I cannot emphasize, emphasize the importance of this enough. Jesus in the Gospels never does a miracle, never heals a person, never gives a prophetic word, never preaches a sermon until after his baptism, his spirit baptism. Jesus did all of his ministry in the power of being filled with Holy Spirit. If Jesus needed it. Heads up, bro. You need. Need it desperate you.

[B]

You need it.

[A]

So kind of do this real quick and let's move on. Talk about ice, and we'll, we'll, we'll. We'll lock her down. So this is what didn't make into the sermon that I always wish I had time. Would you mind if I read to you some quick encounters of towering figures throughout church history that most people do not know recorded their filling with the Spirit subsequent to their salvation. Carlos, would you mind if I read some of these real quick? I will allow it, you jerk. Now, keep this in mind. Keep this in mind. What does being filled with the spirit do in the New Testament? Acts 1 says it gives you powerful witness. Romans 8. The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. It gives you assurance of salvation, a direct assurance. You are my child. And number three, Ephesians 3 says, I pray that your. That the Spirit may strengthen your inner being so that you may be able to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ. So the third thing is it gives you a unique encounter with the love of the Father. Right. Now, as I read these, I'm going to do this real fast. This is DL Moody. One day, while walking on Wall street in New York City, Moody was suddenly overwhelmed by a powerful sense of God's presence and love. And then he wrote, one day in the city of New York. Oh, what a day. I cannot describe. Describe it. I can only say that God revealed himself to me. Listen. And I had such an experience of his love that I had to ask him to stay his Hand. And then Moody records that after that experience, he was preaching the same sermons he had preached before that experience, but before nobody got saved. And after that experience, the second great awakening happened. Happened.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Love of the Father, assurance of salvation, power for witness. Okay, let me do another one. Jonathan Edwards. So heads up if you think the only people talk about spirit baptism are like wild emotional charismatics. This is Jonathan freaking Edwards.

[B]

He read his sermons.

[A]

He read his sermons. Monotone. He was arguably one of the most brilliant puritan minds in history. Jonathan Edwards said this, the spirit of God. This is an experience he had subsequent to salvation. The spirit of God seemed to be poured out upon me with an extraordinary influence. My soul was led away in a kind of vision and I had a view of the glory of the Son of God. And it was that experience that led him to write Religious Affections, which is his. Arguably his most famous book on how essentially it's how. How the role of feelings in the life of a Christian. Okay, that's Jonathan Edwards. John Wesley. Right, here's John Wesley and one of a biography about him. About a quarter before 9 o' clock, while he. This is the guy. He was in a spot where somebody was reading the preface to Martin Luther's commentary on the Book of Romans.

[B]

Like you do.

[A]

Yeah. As one does on Friday night. As one does on a Friday night, about a quarter before nine. While he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ. Listen to this language. I felt my heart strangely warmed. Now remember, what did Ephesians 3 says? When the Spirit fills you, I pray that you may be strengthened in your inward being by the power of the Holy Spirit. That you may be able to know how wide and long and high and deep are the love of the Father, is what Wesley says. I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt that I did trust Christ alone for salvation. And an assurance was given to me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death. Love of the Father, assurance of salvation. Let me. Let me do my last. My. My favorite too. So Bla Pascal. Okay, French mathematician. Not exactly your wild emotional Pentecostal.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, French mathematician. This is honestly the most mysterious one, one of them all to me. So Blaise Pascal, later in his life had a radical salvation and he stopped all of his mathematics work. You know, you learned some things that he postulated when you were in high school. He stopped all of his math and at the end of his life he wrote something called the Pences, which is essentially it's like a Christian apologetics book is what it is. I read like half of it in college and nobody really knew, like why did he stop doing math and just start writing about Jesus for the rest of his life? When he died, they found inside of his cloak that he was wearing on his horse a piece of paper that he had sewed into the inside of his cloak. And on it was his journal entry from Monday, November 25, 1654, where he had recorded his experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit. And no one knew until he died. And this is what he wrote. And bro, this is fascinating. This is what was written Monday 23rd November from about half past ten at night until about half past ten, about half past midnight. And this is this way. It says all caps 5. God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob. Not the God of the philosophers and of the learned. Watch. Certitude. Certitude. Remember, what do we say? Baptism. Holy Spirit. Results in assurance of salvation. The Spirit of God testifies with our Spirit that we are children of God. Romans 8. He says certitude. Certitude. Feeling. Joy. Peace. God of Jesus Christ, My God. And your God. Your God will be my God. Forgetfulness of the world and of everything except God. God. He is only found by the ways taught in the Gospel. Grandeur of the human soul. Righteous Father, the world has not known you. But I love this. But I now know you. Joy, joy, joy. Tears of joy. This is a French mathematician. Joy, joy, joy. Tears of joy. I have departed from him. They have forsaken me. The fount of living water. My God, will you leave me? Me. Let me not be separated from him forever. This is eternal life. That they know you, the one true God and that the one that you sent. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. I let now he's what he does right here. This is the last part. Is he starts confessing who he was and describing his salvation. I left him. I fled him. Renounced, crucified. Let me never be separated from him. He is only kept securely by the ways taught in the Gospel. Renunciation, total and sweet. Complete submission to Jesus Christ and to my director. Eternally in joy for a day's exercise on earth. May I not forget your words. Amen. And they found that sewed into the inside of his cloak after he died. That's a man who was, in the words of the New Testament, sealed with the Holy Spirit of the living God. Now do one last one. It's much shorter for our Catholic brothers and sisters. Let me Throw you a bone. So Thomas Aquinas, who Protestants are, are have a love hate relationship with, because Thomas Aquinas, he's the. I think basically every Catholic would say Thomas Aquinas is the greatest Catholic theologian in church history. He wrote a. A massive volume. It's called the Summa Theologica. And what he did is he took Aristotle's philosophy, Aristotelian philosophy, and he tried to like, make it have a baby with Christian theology is what he tried to do. And basically his whole thing was man, actually you can't have a direct experience with God, so you kind of got to reason up to him. So if you've ever heard like the. The eight proofs of God, Thomas Aquinas came up with the original postulation of the eight proofs of God. Okay, but then this is really interesting. At the end of his life, something happened to him and he stopped writing the Summa theological and never wrote again. And this is. This is what it says in his biography. Then, after spending the whole of his life demonstrating how man has no direct contact with immaterial reality, Aquinas, shortly before his death, had such an overwhelming direct experience of God that he wrote no more. Urged by a friend to complete his great work, the Summa Theologica, he answered, this is really interesting. This is why he said, I can do no more. Such things have now been revealed to me that all I have written seems as straw and I now await the end of my life. He had a direct encounter through the Holy Spirit with God.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

So, and I'll just real quick say this, this. This happened to me. It was. It was now, 10 years ago ago. I read. I'mma show it. I read this book, Joy Unspeakable by. By Martin Luther, who's a Presbyterian. There's our shout out.

[B]

Martin L. Jones.

[A]

Martin L. Sorry, Martin. Sorry. Martin L. Jones. Martin Lloyd Jones. Martin Lloyd Jones. Joy Unspeakable. It's about power and renewal of the Holy Spirit. And I was few years into my ministry in Nashville as I read that book. The only way I can describe it, Jana would say, is it. It was as if an agony overcame me. And I mean an agony like I couldn't sleep. All I could do was keep reading. He makes this argument in the book about how being filled with the spirit is something we should seek. And it was an agony. It was like the pain of childbirth. I was in a. I was in my car driving circles around Cool Springs Galleria in Franklin, Tennessee, listening to sermons from two pastors that I want name about being filled with the spirit. And all I can say. I don't know how to say it. Something happened to me. I don't care what you call it. Something happened to me and I started weeping uncontrollably in my car and shouting out loud for God to fill me with his spirit from the top of my head to the bottom of my toes. And it was like a presence of God filled my dadgum car. And the only way I can describe it is it felt like I was being attacked by light. Love from. And dude, honestly, when I read D.L. moody's story, I'm kind of the same. Before that moment, I honestly, I was kind of a failed youth pastor. I shrunk the first youth ministry I had. It grew from 160 students to like 120 students when I led this ministry. I was a few years into my church plan in Nashville, and before that moment, the ministry had grown moderately few percent per year. Year after that happened to me, you got. And I'm not going to tell a story here. Rehash. You ever heard me tell the story of the lady getting healed of near total deafness in the middle of my sermon? That happened right after this. If you've ever heard me tell the story of, like, sometimes God will give me genuine prophetic words while I'm preparing a sermon and I'll know I got to put I got to say this in the sermon. And there's that story where, you know, God told me to say somebody came in high today and, you know, and sure enough is like a kid that stumbled in height. That happened right after that. After that moment, the supernatural manifestations of the Spirit's power have intermittently, not always intermittently marked my ministry. And I don't know how else to say it. Ever since that moment, I have been unable to lead a ministry that did not explosively grow and see radical amounts of salvation. And why. Acts 1:8. You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you. And you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria and in the ends of the earth. So what I would say is every Christian ask, seek and knock. Your heavenly Father wants to give you this gift. And I will just put it to you. This right here is why we do prayer and worship night at Lake Point. The reason we gather at night is I will lead everyone in prayer, praying for a fresh filling of the Holy Spirit. And every year we see thousands of people have a new encounter.

[C]

Holy Spirit, teach us how to want you more.

[A]

Come on, man.

[C]

Well, hey, Lyford Nation. Let me share something exciting with you. We want to invite you to the most important night of the year for our church. That is our night of prayer and worship. This is a night where we come believing that God still heals, he still restores and he still moves. And so on January 21, from 7 to 8:30pm, that's central standard Time, we'll gather to worship and pray with faith for miracles, for breakthrough, for the next generation and for the one more God is still reaching. And so this is a night to bring your need, your burden, your unanswered prayer and trust God to do what only he can do. We are believing as a church for chains to break, for hearts to be renewed and love lives to be changed in the presence of God. And so to hear more about this event, text the word event to 20411 or you can visit Lakepoint Church Events and select night of prayer and Worship. If you are in the DFW area or maybe you live in a different state or city and you're willing to drive or fly and come visit, join us in person at any of our seven campuses. Or you can also worship with us by joining church online, online via YouTube, Facebook or Lakepoint Live. Hey, come expecting, come hungry, come believing. Mark your calendar January 21st and be a part of what God wants to do. We're gonna shift gears a little bit.

[A]

Here as we hard, emotional gear shift very hard. And we gotta do it quick if.

[C]

You'Re new to the lift. Free podcast. We wanna address practical discipleship issues every single time, such as baptisms like we just did. We're gonna call that ground war. But we also want to address things happening in culture, in society from a biblical perspective. We call that air war. And just recently, something happened in Minneapolis that was pretty significant and a woman was shot and killed by an ICE agent. And so some are saying it was murder and what happened to her was totally unjustified. Other people are saying the woman was using her vehicle as a weapon against law enforcement. And so what the ICE agent did was self defense. And now there are protests and Vice president speaking into this right now. Governor Waltz has issued an order to prepare the Minnesota National Guard.

[A]

Don't pull my punch. I want to get into this. Pastor Josh, here's the big idea. The big idea is, as of the moment we're recording this podcast, I'm texting with pastors in that city. The big deal right now is it's getting spun up into like they're telling me, hey, man, it's Starting to feel like the beginning of the BLM thing right now. Like, riots are forming. So I actually. Y' all want to talk. You ready? It's good for me to talk about this.

[C]

How should a Christian respond and make sense of this?

[A]

All right, so what. What Christians need to understand is heads up, man. The same dad gum play is getting run on you a million times. And if you don't start to under. This is why this is really important. If you don't start to understand the play that's getting run on you, bro, it's like the football team. It's like the defense is playing against the football team. And hey, man, we keep running up the middle every single time. And they keep getting eight yards on that run every single time. And you're adjusting your linebacker. Hey, man, you need to know the play they're running so that you can adjust your defense. So, man, they're trying to run the same daggum play. So here's what I'll point out. And some of this stuff is a little. I'm always nervous. I'm going say something you guys don't want to be associated with, but I'm just going to go there and then you can disavow me later. So. So heads up. Here's the same dad gun play that's getting. This getting run. All right? So here's what it is. It's manufactured outrage in service of an activist called cause. Here's the play that you need to know is getting run over and over and over. Manufactured outrage in service to spin people up in service of an activist cause. So, like, heads up, if you go back to blm, all right, so you go back, and there was a whole deal. How did BLM start? It's 2014, 2015. You had the Michael Brown deal where he was killed by a police officer. And then immediately everybody was like, hey, man, he said, hands up, don't shoot. That's what the narrative was. He said, hands up, don't shoot to the police officer. And this police officer just shot this guy down in cold blood. And so all over the nation, you remember this? All over the nation, protests and riots happen here in Dallas. Like, we had two or three city blocks that were set on fire and destroyed. I think it was like, 13 police officers in Dallas were injured or murdered. And remember what the battle cry was was? The rallying cry was, hands up, don't shoot. Hands up, don't shoot. Okay? So that's what happens. And everybody just reacts instead of. They just react instead of reflecting and then it gets spun up. All right, so that happened. Well, then, whoopsie daisy, the Obama. Remember, I want to highlight this. The Obama administration. The Obama administration. The DOJ does the investigation into the thing and guess what they find? Okay, go to that first one. Eventually they find out this is the Obama administration. The Obama Democratic doj. Actually, we're really sorry, Hands up, don't shoot. Didn't happen in Ferguson. They started. They start interviewing all the eyewitnesses. Actually, that's not what happened. It sounds like it actually was a justified self defense thing on behalf of the officer. Officer was not charged. And that's the Obama administration saying that you saw the same thing. Go to the political article, Politico. Same thing. Years later. No, no, yeah, go back to the last, last one. Yeah. This is actually npr. Npr. Years later, hands up, don't shoot. Movement built on false rumors. Columnist says, go to the Politico one. Years later, after massive riots and enormous amounts of damage and murders all over the country, Politico, hands up, don't shoot. Ranked one of the biggest Pinocchios of 2015. So here's what happens. You get, you get an immediate false claim based on just, we're just reacting instead of reflecting. It's then leveraged to spin people up into a destructive sort of activist thing. And then way after the fact, people like, ah, man, we're really sorry. That's not actually what happened. I'll give you another one. Let me. Yeah, yeah. Okay, this is from. This is from this same incident up in Minneapolis. This is, I think two days ago. Show the Proud Socialist. Okay, so this is one. So this post. Now, first of all, notice the title. The handle of this X account is proudsocialist. I don't have time to talk about this. Essentially what they're doing is a play out of a book called Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals. At some point, we should do an entire episode on Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals. It's the playbook of, of progressive deconstructive socialists on here's how we're going to destabilize societies and usher it in. What they're doing. This is a, this is right out of the salt. Alinsky's Rules for Radical. So this gets. By the way, this tweet has, as of right before this podcast, 14 million views.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So 14 million people. Here's all they see. Okay, here's all they see. It reads another horrifying image out of Minneapolis. Look at the terror on this man's face. As a federal agent points a gun at his face and threatens his leg life. Enough is enough. Our government is committing war crimes abroad and murdering and terrorizing citizens at home. Listen to this last sentence. We need a revolution. Okay? So we're trying to manufacture outrage to spin it up. Why? Because we need a revolution. And it's. What? What's that handle again? Proud socialist. Okay, so if. If. No, no, keep it up. So if that's all you saw, you'd be like, bro, that actually does look really bad, man. It looks really bad. Okay, does look really bad. Until you see what actually happened. Go to that first video. Here's the reality. What happened. Watch this dude is over a line that they had already drawn. The agent is pushing him back peaceably. He grabs the agent's firearm. He initiates contact with the agent's firearm, and then it just, incidentally, because he grabbed it, points at his face for one second while the agent is trying not to point it at him, at him. But they freeze frame one little moment from the thing and use it to manufacture outrage. Now, let's go a layer deeper. Here's what we also know. This tweet says the agent was pointing a, quote, firearm at the man's face, implying he's trying to shoot him in the face. Okay, let's see the actual video. It's not even a firearm. Check this out. Boom. His pepper spray.

[B]

I was wondering.

[A]

It's pepper spray. So that's it. You can take it down. So here's the point. Somebody will free. Go back to the original image. The. The first one we showed. Somebody will freeze frame a deceptively edited moment for the purpose of manufacturing outrage. Why? To destabilize law and order. Why? So that we can usher in an activist moment that we want. So I've. I've given you two examples of this. So here again, bro, if you're a football team and the offense keeps running the same running back at the same gap in the line every single time, and they keep getting eight yards through play. Move your linebacker. So this is what Christians need to get better at. Having actual discernment. Discernment when stuff happens. So I want to show you how this exact same thing happened in this whole Minneapolis ice thing, okay? So first of all, what you have, I'll set it up again. Christians are law and order people. Romans 13 and the book of First Peter. We are commanded to, quote, be subject to governing authorities. Okay? That's what we are commanded to do. We can talk about this at some time on a different Episode of the podcast. There is such a thing as a Christian theology of civil disobedience. That is where Christians disobey laws. Christians have done that all throughout church history. But the only time that Christians should do that is when the government either commands something the Bible forbids or when the government forbids something the Bible commands. Otherwise, we should be law and order people, people who are subject to governing authorities. I'm just going to tell you, like how I do it with my kids. We teach our kids all the time. I will regularly do this actually. I'm going to get to that later. I'm going to get to that later. All right, so let's set it up. What you have right here in, in Minneapolis is you have lawful governing authorities enforcing just laws with lawful warrants for lawful arrests. That's what you have. All right, now, the play that I told you was getting run, it's the exact, exact play they got run this week. And that is getting spun up into a, a mass hysteria, a deal. So now, heads up, if, by the way, if you are a pod watcher, we're going to show a video right here of the incident. A woman is killed in this video, but you can't see the woman. I don't watch videos of people. I don't like seeing people die. No, you cannot see it in this video. So to heads up, but if you don't even want to see a shot fired, you do see a shot fired, I totally get it. And you can, you can skip forward, but here, here's the so fir. This was the first video of this incident that went viral. So go ahead and, and play this guy. So she's the one in the Honda right there, and she's blocking ICE agents to try to keep them from doing the job that they have been commanded to do by government. So these guys come up and we're going to bleep out some things and they're telling her, hey, get, get your car out of the way. You're impeding law enforcement. Okay, so there it is. So, dude, in of front, front. And then she, you can, you can stop right there. So if that's all you see, it's honestly, it's a little unclear. It's like, hey man, it's hard to see the officer in the front. She ends up, the car ends up swerving to the right. And so it is it, it leaves you with a question like, hey man, was that, was that necessary? Like, was that. It left you a question. Now when you first just see the unclear video Again, remember, the play that gets run is deceptively edited or unclear image or video weaponized. Let's spin people up into something so that we can activate for an activist cause. And that's exactly what happens. So unclear video comes out and instead of reflecting, everybody just starts reacting with like anti law enforcement rhetoric. So show that one from 10. So Tim Walls Hobbs up and he literally is using language that Minnesota is, quote, at war with our federal government. Okay, so this is before any investigation. This is before any more footage has come out. They've just seen one thing and just we're just firing from the hip and using words like Minnesota is at war with the federal government. I'm going to read some quotes from the mayor of Minneapolis. This guy's name is Jacob Frey. He said this was an agent recklessly using power that resulted in somebody dying. And again, no investigations taken place place. He's seen unclear footage. Another quote, they are already trying to spin this as an act of self defense. That is bull. I won't read what he said. He gives another message to ice. Get the F out of Minneapolis. He's, you know, he's cursing these guys. And then he, he encouraged citizens to quote, show up in front of ICE before the shooting. So he was, he was instructing the citizens of his city to impede legal law enforcement before they came. And heads up, somebody did it. Somebody did it. You have a million other things. Jimmy Kimmel, you can toss that up. Jimmy Kimmel again, no investigation has taken place. Jimmy Kimmel just hops up and he says about President Trump. He isn't just about President Trump. He's saying he isn't just killing people overseas. Get the bad word out of Minneapolis, get the bad word out of all these cities. And then he holds up a T shirt on national television that I think it said, president Trump will try to kill you too. So again, these are just no reflection, just reaction. Immediate assumption. Police officer was obviously wrong then just as happened in the other two incidents. Then the next day a little more clear footage comes out and this shows you the incident from a different angle that somebody got footage of. Show that slow motion deal and you can kind of see it. So wait, wait, pause it, pause it and go back to the beginning now, which it's grainy. So watch really closely and you're going to see. So again, here's the question. What everybody was saying was, oh man, she didn't even hit him with the car. She was trying to avoid him. And there's no way this was self defense. Defense until you see a different angle. You can play that guy. Boom. I mean, you see it right there, It's a hard smash right into his body. Boom. So you got it, there it is. And. But wait, it's too late. The damage is done because everybody took an unclear footage and just spun it up immediately to destabilize, destabilize society and weaponize them against law enforcement. And then I'll go a layer deeper. Then it came out the next day. Again, no investigations taking place. Then it came out the next day, throw that next thing up. That exact same. If you're wondering like, man, why did that guy act in self defense? I know he was hit by a car and a car can for sure kill you, but I wonder why he acted in self defense. Came out the next day. That exact same ICE agent that had to defend himself when that comes, car got rammed into his body. That same dude was dragged 300ft attached to somebody else's vehicle while executing an arrest warrant. Warrant on an illegal, illegal immigrant, resulting in 33 stitches not six months ago. And this guy they had to arrest was a sex. Convicted sex offender. So it's like, dude, it's like, dude, this guy literally was just dragged 300ft on pavement six months ago. Exact same thing starts to happen here. So here's the deal, ma'. Am. Let me just. Like, as Christians, how do we need to think about this? Because kind of thing, number one, two things can be true. Two things can be true. Is it a tragedy anytime somebody is killed? Yeah, man, yeah, it is. That's a tragedy. It can also be true that her choices resulted in that tragedy. Those two things can be simultaneously true. Okay, so let me just talk about, like how Christians. Because listen, man, I have a feeling you're going to see that same play get run over over and over and over. And notice this. It is always in service of galvanizing people against God, ordained sources of governing authorities. You're going to notice that there's a spiritual reason for that. Okay, so first of all, let me just say Christians, Christians need people who reflect and not just react. So like, we have Bible verses for how this stuff should happen. All right? Proverbs 18:7. Whoever states his case first seems right until another comes and examines him. Whoever states his case first seems right until another comes and examines him. If you see a selectively edited video or image, one thing seems really true. But we're supposed to be people who reflect and go, hey, let's pause. Let's wait until we understand the situation and then let's make a judgment. I will say this. Just watch this. So, so, so watch how this works. So again, we talk about this frequently. What critical theory trains people to do is it trains them to view society through an oppressed oppressor lens. What that does is it trains you to, to where you already quote, unquote, know who the bad guy is and who the good guy is before you know any of the details, just based on where they stand in the social structure. So I know this is super awkward, but I'm just going to say it. So like for instance, what critical theory does is it's like, hey man, there's, you know, there's oppressed minorities and then there's oppressor white police officers. So then if you start thinking that way, whenever you hear a Michael Brown or whatever the situation is, you predetermine who the good guy is and who the bad guy is. Not based on any evidence of the case, just based on where they fit into in the intersectionality structure. Well, heads up. If you're already, by the way, the same thing happens with a million things. It happens with abuse allegations. If you're the type of person who you have already decided who the good guy is and who the bad guy is before you hear anything, just based on their identities and where they fit in an intersectionality structure, you are not interested in justice. You're just an activist for a cause. Okay, so like, you know, if there's a, if there's a shooting and it involves a white police officer and a black resident, and you're just like, well, I already know who the good guy is and who the bad guy is. You're not interested in justice at all. You're just an activist for a cause. Same thing. And I'm going to use a biblical analogy. You have an analogy in the Old Testament, the book of Genesis, where there was a claimed sexualist assault and Potiphar's wife looks at Joseph and she's like, he tried to rape me. Well, if you're running an intersectionality play and you're like, well, you know, you have a woman and women obviously are oppressed by the patriarchy. You have a woman and a man and she's claiming to be a victim of sexual assault and you just predetermine who the victim is and who the perpetrator is, just based on the identities of the people and where they fit in an intersectionality structure. You're not interested in justice.

[B]

Justice.

[A]

You're just an activist for a cause. That is why you have to Again, whoever states his case first seems right until another comes and examines him. The whole reason we do that as Christians is so here's what people say is if you, in these emotionally charged situations, if you say, hey, man, actually, let's pause and let's wait until we know all the details to figure out if the officer acted justly. What people say, oh, well, you're just propping up this oppressive white supremacist. Same thing with the sexual abuse allegation. If you say, okay, there's an allegation that's really important. We take that very seriously. Now, we need to conduct an investigation to make sure that we understand what actually happened. People say, oh my gosh, you're just. You're re traumatizing the victim. You're supposed to believe all. Well, think about the biblical situation of Joseph and Potiphar's wife. You don't know who the victim is until you do the investigation. Potiphar's wife claimed to be the victim, but Joseph actually was the victim of a false allegation. So this is why Christians need to be people. Hey guys, let's de emotionalize. We need to completely deprogram ourselves from intersectionality instincts that pre decide who the good guys are and who the bad guys are just based on where they fit in. Intersectionality, structure. Structure. And we need to be people who, again, I don't know if people realize this whole different podcast, the entire American ideal of innocent until proven guilty. Guess where that came from? The Old Testament. The Old Testament. So we need to be people like we care about justice. We de. Emotionalize. We ought to be the people who are like, okay, we're not going to walk out and riot before we know what actually happened. Happened. No, no. We're people of thoughtful reflection, not just emotional reaction. And that's how we need to understand these things.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Further. Further thoughts. Agree. Disagree. Additional comments. You're not hurt my feelings.

[B]

A couple things, I mean, you said earlier, I mean, multiple things can be true. And I mean this, as you said, is tragic. I think she was a mother of three.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That's three kids who lost a mom.

[A]

That's a tragedy.

[B]

That's a tragedy.

[A]

Tragedy.

[B]

And I saw another angle of the video that FBI agent was breaking down and from the other side of the vehicle, it look, the wheels were turned, right? So she may have been trying just to get away. And by the way, we'll never know. We don't know her intentions. And so it's very possible that she wasn't trying to hit the guy. She was trying to get away, but she got afraid. She active impulsively. And the rest was a tragedy, was an accident. But you also have to remember, as you kind of talked about, there's also the officer's point of view where he acted impulsively. And I didn't even know the story before you shared that about what had happened to him is put yourself in his shoes.

[A]

That's exactly right, man.

[B]

And all of a sudden a vehicle is coming at you. And she had seemed angry and aggressive. And I just imagined that most.

[A]

Not just coming at you. I just want to emphasize this. Not just coming at you. We saw the video. It strikes you forcibly. Yes. And six months earlier, you were just dragged 300ft on pavement by somebody who tried to do this same thing. Oh, by the way, why? Because. Because progressive governing authorities are calling you. Things like the Gestapo.

[B]

Exactly. And if you're at his angle, he doesn't have time to look to see where the wheel is turned. He just know he's getting hit by a car. And I. I think if most people were honest, they would have impulsively pulled their guns too. Like, this is not nearly the same, but I've been out hunting or hiking, and twice a bear's been within 10ft of me. Or I thought a cougar or a bear was right behind me. You know what I did? Both times, I instinctively pulled a weapon straight at him. The second time there was nothing there. And I felt a little bit of a fool. And luckily no one was around me to. But the first time a bear I was hunting, one came out and sprinted. It made a right turn, ended up 10ft away. Looking at my son of me, I seems to be. We were hunting. I grabbed the rifle.

[A]

A bear.

[B]

I grabbed the rifle and point. I'm like, run away. I just like.

[A]

Did you shoot it?

[B]

No, but I was like, run away right now. And my fingers on there. You didn't shoot it. If he had not immediately. We were trying to get an elk. If he had not immediately turned away. I'm just saying, I. I didn't think. I didn't say, oh, is he aggressive? To me, I just instinctively wins that mode. And if we are going to empathize and put ourselves in the shoes of the woman, we have to do the same with the officer.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

We have to do this. I mean, I think to your point. It's been my thing, Carlos, to hear what you say. I think we all have to. You said it right. The idea of man reflection not reaction. I just want to say with that, we've got to train ourselves to be slow.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

To take our time. And I'd say especially now in our day, I mean the stuff you mentioned before in 2015 and then further riots in 20, 20, 21, that was before a. And so I just want to say Christians. And by the way, this applies by the way, to accounts that maybe you're putting out stuff that you usually agree with.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Don't immediately trust what your eyes see. It's the world we live in now. We always have needed to be slow to react. We now need to be almost 10 times slower. Let do process happen. Let the truth come out. In the meantime, I just say to people it's like, don't get me wrong, if injustice has been done, for sure there's a place to raise our voices respectfully and in the right way. But then also say, man, let's just me. My gut reaction has been like, can I pray for that woman's family? Can I pray for that officer? Because he may have just been active instinctively. Now he has to live with that. Yeah. Those are just a few thoughts.

[C]

Yeah. I think back to what you were saying, Pastor Josh. I think the situation points to something greater going on. The Bible says we don't wrestle with flesh and blood, but against spirits and principalities. There seems to be, every time you see something like this just overall in our nation and you see it all over on social media, there seems to be a spot spirit behind all this that basically it just. It rejects all authority. It wants to tear down all the systems. It wants to rebel against everything in outrage is very nihilistic. And the Bible calls that a spirit of lawlessness.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And so Jesus talked about this in Matthew chapter 24 when he was talking about the end times. And he says that in the last days lawlessness and will be increased and the love of many will grow cold.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And so again, it's this rage. This wants to tear down everything. It's a reactive rage. It's. It's filled with just anger. And I think back to what you were saying. As Christians, we want to acknowledge that there's a spiritual reality to this. But also we want to be sober minded. We want to respond, not react. We want to destroy arguments and we want to love people.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And if something is not right, we want reformation, not lawlessness.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

We don't just want to tear down. We want to point towards Solutions. And we also want to submit to our earthly authorities, knowing and having the confidence and reminding our earthly authorities that they are also submitted to a higher authority, and that's God. And so that's why we trust our earthly authorities, because we know that there's a higher authority there too. And so I think, yeah, to, you know, just to, to remind us, like man, there's a spiritual reality behind it as well.

[A]

So can I. Let me connect it out for you and then we're done. All right, so you are laying your finger on the issue underneath all the issues. All right, so what does the Bible call Satan? It calls him a spirit of lawlessness. The Bible says in the last days, lawlessness will abound. And then do you remember what the Bible calls the Antichrist? It calls him the man, man of lawlessness. So think about why did sin. Now I'm going to connect this directly to this situation. Why did Satan rebel against God in. In heaven? Because he refused to be under any authority. What is at the, at the epicenter of the beating heart of the black heart of Satan? I refuse any authority over me. Now, if you watch, you will note that there is a. There's a spirit of lawlessness is the undergirding, undergirding spirit underneath critical theory and everything that it embodies. In fact, if you watch it, what critical theory essentially does is it. Think about this. The Bible says that God has established three. He's instituted three. Created, Instituted three institutions. That's a little double there to structure society. Three authorities. What are they? The family, the church and the state. Those are three authorities that have been established by God. The Bible commands. He commands people to submit to all three authorities. Children, obey your parents. Honor your father, mother and the Lord with the church. Obviously it's, you know all the Hebrews passages about submitting to your leaders and honoring them. The state were specifically commanded. First Peter, Romans 13. Submit to Governing authorities. If you watch very interesting as this question. Why is it that this entire like secular progressive movement, why is it that it just violently seeks to overthrow all three of the exact institutions that God gave as authorities? If you watch in secular progressivism, bro, what does it teach that instead of honor your father and mother, the whole vibe of secular progressivism is blame your father and mother, blame your father and mother, blame your father and mother. What does it do when it comes to the church? Secular progressivism is. This is so obvious. That's where the whole deconstruction movement comes in. It's the whole apostasy thing. The Pastors are the bad guys. Rebel against their authorities, overthrow the oppression and then what does it do when it comes to the state? That's what it does. So listen, it's the spirit underneath the situation. Situation is a spirit of lawlessness. It absolutely has a spiritual impetus behind it and it is this. It's the spirit of the, of the enemy that refuses to submit to any authority. And so it's specifically, he specifically targets the exact three authorities established by God, family, church, state, rebellion, period.

[C]

That's it, man. Pastor Josh, in light of that, would you pray for us?

[A]

Yeah, I will, man. Father, we do even right now we want to be people who are sober minded who let all that we do be done in love. And so even right now we pray for that situation. I pray for the city of Minneapolis and the state of Minnesota and the precious people who are there that you would protect them from, from evil and a spirit of lawlessness and any, anything that would happen because you love those people and you want their good. I pray for that woman and her children and I pray for that officer who's going to be having a hard week. So Father, would you be with them? Lord, more than that right now I pray for everybody that's listening that you would make us into patient, peaceful peacemakers like your words says. Sober minded disciples of the living God who everywhere we go we are people of, of wisdom and prudence and, and we bring the peace of the Lord Jesus Christ with us wherever we go. Salt and light in society, in our families and our churches. Father, I pray for a lot of people to hear this and take the step of obedience to be baptized. And I'm going to go ahead right now and start praying for mass outpouring of your spirit at prayer and worship night for us at your church. Holy Spirit, come, you are welcome here. We pray those things in Jesus name. Amen.

[C]

Amen. Lay free brother, live free.