NO, Christmas Is Not A Pagan Holiday... | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Live Free with Josh Howerton — Episode Summary

Episode: NO, Christmas Is Not A Pagan Holiday...
Podcast: Live Free with Josh Howerton, Lakepointe Church
Date: December 15, 2025
Host & Guests:

• Josh Howerton (Lead Pastor)
• Carlos Rasman (Co-host)
• Paul Cunningham (Co-host)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode tackles widespread claims that Christmas is a "pagan holiday," exploring the origins of Christmas traditions such as December 25th, the Christmas tree, and Santa Claus. The hosts fact-check popular internet arguments, provide Christian theological context, and encourage listeners to keep Christ at the center of their holiday celebration. The conversation is lively, humorous, and packed with historical and biblical insights.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is Christmas a Pagan Holiday?

• Common Claims: Online discourse (TikTok, memes, History Channel, etc.) often asserts that Christmas borrows from Sol Invictus, Saturnalia, or other pagan traditions, and that elements like the Christmas tree are “pagan.”
• Hosts’ Main Argument: These assertions are either historically inaccurate or misunderstand how Christian tradition evolves.
• Framework for Discernment:
  • Mark Driscoll’s paradigm: "Should Christians receive, reject, or redeem cultural practices?" ([49:12])

2. Debunking the Myths

December 25th and Pagan Festivals

• Claim: December 25th was chosen because of Sol Invictus or Saturnalia.
• Fact-Check:
  • Early Christians believed Jesus died March 25th, and by a tradition of holy people dying/born on the same date, they calculated His conception at that time, leading to a December 25th birth ([53:53], [54:38]).
  • The first links of Sol Invictus to December 25th appear after Christians were already celebrating Christmas on that date ([52:36]).
  • Roman emperor Aurelian possibly moved Sol Invictus to compete with Christian celebrations, not the other way around ([56:01]).
  • Saturnalia ran from December 17–21, not the 25th ([58:09]).
  • No historical evidence connects Saturnalia directly to Christmas traditions.
• Quote:
  • “It’s literally the exact opposite of what you get in your little TikTok deconstruction videos. It’s not that Christmas tried to take the place of Sol Invictus, it’s the opposite.” (Josh, [56:17])

The Christmas Tree

• Claim: Trees are pagan, and Jeremiah forbids them.
• Origins:
  • Three possible Christian origin stories:
    1. St. Boniface (8th century) cut down an oak worshipped by pagans, used a fir to point to Christ ([63:38]).
    2. The ‘Paradise Tree’ used in medieval Europe represented the Garden of Eden, decorated on Dec 24th ([65:18]).
    3. Martin Luther (16th century) brought a tree indoors, decorated with candles to illustrate Christ as the Light ([69:46]).
  • Not linked to pagan idol worship; European traditions developed independently ([62:17]).
• Jeremiah 10:
  • The passage condemns making idols from trees, not decorative trees ([72:23]).
• Quote:
  • “Jeremiah’s not talking about Christians putting up a tree in their house... He’s talking about craftsmen making idols.” (Josh, [73:12])

Santa Claus

• Myth: Santa’s roots are pagan.
• Origins:
  • St. Nicholas, a 4th-century Christian bishop, known for generosity and theological zeal (including slapping the heretic Arius at Nicaea!) ([75:05]).
  • Dutch ‘Sinterklaus’ comes to America, merges with other traditions to become Santa Claus.
  • 1800s poets and 20th century Coca-Cola marketing solidify the modern image.
• Practical Approach:
  • Families should avoid lying but can distinguish “lies, secrets, surprises, and pretend” ([75:05]).
  • Encouraged: teach the history, let kids enjoy “pretend,” but keep Jesus at the center ([83:26]).
• Quote:
  • “We say no to lies and secrets... but we say yes to surprising and pretending.” (Josh, [75:05])

3. Deeper Theological Reflection: Joy vs. Happiness

• Joy Defined:
  • Joy is not the same as happiness; the world offers happiness based on circumstances (“happenings”), but Christian joy is rooted in Jesus ([15:41]).
  • Examples: Paul in Philippians—rejoicing while imprisoned; perseverance under trial ([15:41]-[32:39]).
• Ecclesiastes Parallel:
  • “Everything is meaningless… under the sun”—lasting satisfaction can’t be found in earthly things, but only in Christ ([20:50], [26:19]).
• Practical Advice:
  • Joy is both gift and discipline; to recover joy, confess sin, recount God’s works, reclaim Christian practices, and worship even in hard times ([35:17], [40:53]-[44:57]).
• Quote:
  • “Happiness is based on happenings. Joy is based on Jesus.” (Josh, [15:41])
  • “You have to realize Christianity is not a whole bunch of 'has to,' it's a bunch of 'gets to.'” (Carlos, [27:51])

4. Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I’m for sure polytheistic pagan when it comes to trees.” (Paul, joking about having five Christmas trees, [02:36])
• “Maybe you ought to tell him... Him.” [reading from Home Alone’s original script, showing Christian themes] (Josh, [12:35])
• “Don’t try to be tougher than Jesus.” (Josh, [44:57])
• “Keep the X in Xmas.” (Josh, explaining the Greek letter chi, [85:21])

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “We are sorrowful, but we are always rejoicing.” (Josh, [15:41])
• “Jesus... was anointed with the oil of joy beyond all of his companions—he’s the happiest guy who ever lived.” (Josh, [41:34])
• “If you want to walk with Jesus, long-term, guilt will not be enough, or a fear of hell… it has to be joy.” (Carlos, [27:37])
• “If you look at your life, what you will notice is in every season of your life, there is one of these things… under the sun that my heart is… chasing more than the Creator.” (Josh, [32:46])
• “Anything short of hell is a gift of grace.” (Paul, [38:35])
• “Let’s not give Jesus our leftovers.” (Paul, [83:29])

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Important Timestamps for Key Segments

• Debunking "Christmas is Pagan": [46:23] – [62:13]
• Christmas Tree Origins: [62:13] – [71:13]
• Discussion of Santa Claus: [73:36] – [83:20]
• Joy vs. Happiness Reflection: [15:41] – [44:57]
• Ecclesiastes & Christian Desires: [20:50], [26:19], [32:46]
• Practical Joy Application: [35:17], [40:53], [44:57]
• “Keep the X in Xmas": [85:21]

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Summary Table: Common Internet Claims Addressed

| Claim | Hosts’ Response | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------|------------------|-----------| | Christmas is based on Sol Invictus| Not true; the Christian date predates Roman use; possibly the Romans copied Christians | [52:00]–[56:17] | | Saturnalia is the source of Christmas| False; Saturnalia ended before Dec 25th | [58:09] | | Christmas trees are pagan / Jeremiah forbids them | No, origins are Christian; Jeremiah refers to idol-making | [62:13]–[73:12] | | Santa Claus is pagan | No, he’s rooted in St. Nicholas, a Christian bishop | [75:05]–[80:12] | | 'Xmas' erases Christ | No, 'X' is chi, the first letter of Christos (Greek for Christ) | [85:21] |

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Takeaway & Application

• Christmas Celebrations: Christians can joyfully celebrate Christmas, including traditions like the Christmas tree and Santa Claus, without guilt. The origins are either Christian or have been redeemed by Christians for worship.
• Keep Christ Central: Teach children about the real St. Nicholas, highlight Jesus’ birth and its significance, and treat symbolic traditions as pointers—not replacements—for the gospel.
• Joy in Christ: Seek a joy that transcends circumstances, rooted in Jesus and cultivated through worship, confession, and purposeful living.

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Final Thought

"The real Christmas gift did not come wrapped in a beautiful package and set under a tree. It came wrapped in flesh and it was offered nailed to a tree. Don’t miss that." (Carlos, [86:20])

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For further resources, detailed discipleship guides, or to revisit source material, visit lakepointe.church/digital.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now let's dive into today's episode.

[B]

Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. Welcome to another one.

[A]

I don't know why I did that.

[B]

Coming to you from Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. My name is Carlos Rasman. I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton and Paul Cunningham. And today we're going to be talking about. Is Christmas a pagan holiday? And what's up with the story of the real Santa Claus?

[A]

I've been reliably informed by the entire Internet that Christmas is actually a pagan holiday.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

And that Christians are. Are. Are ruining it by talking about Santa.

[C]

Claus or we're accidentally committing idol worship by doing it. All the kind of fun things.

[B]

And in light of that, should Christian parents tell their kids about Santa Claus?

[A]

We do want to talk about that. And you know what else we got a working merch shop.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

A working merch shop.

[B]

The people asked. And by the grace of God, we, our teams have worked to deliver.

[A]

That's right.

[D]

So.

[B]

That's right. So online store now available for the live free hat.

[A]

The live free hat online orders.

[B]

No matter where you are, we are here to make it, deliver it to you wherever you are. So text the word hat to 20411.

[C]

Is that how you get it?

[B]

Yeah. And go to Live Free Shop. And we're going to see this on the screen right now. Hey. Also, we had a. A winner last weekend. Shout out to Taylor Laureno and 8793 with the giveaway. And we have another giveaway this week as well. So we also, every single episode, we want to give away a hat for you guys to participate in this week's giveaway jump on YouTube if you're listening on audio and comment below. Real Christmas tree or fake Christmas tree?

[A]

All right, so this is. So comment on the YouTube video. Just comment. Either real or fake team Real Team Fake.

[B]

What are you. I'm curious.

[A]

I'm all in on team. Fake. All in. On team.

[C]

We have like four or five fake Christmas trees in our house.

[B]

When was the last time?

[A]

Four or five?

[C]

My family loves Christmas trees.

[B]

That's a lot.

[A]

Listen to how pagan is. That's a lot of pagan trees.

[C]

I'm for sure polytheistic pagan when it comes to trees.

[A]

We did, we did a real tree one time and I will say I liked it. I like the smell.

[B]

It's the best.

[A]

You're a real guy.

[B]

Well, I, I've never. In El Salvador we don't have those trees. So like literally I came to the US and with Brooke we're like, hey, let's get a real tree. And then I'm like, this smells good. I just.

[A]

Did you cut it down?

[B]

I did in Michigan when I was in Michigan.

[A]

Are you serious? Yeah, bro.

[B]

My.

[A]

You bare handed?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

A tree cut down Clark Griswold?

[B]

Yes. With the help of my father in law. Shout out to Kevin Kazara. He's listening.

[A]

So impressed.

[B]

Well, I have a photo that at some point I'm going to show you. I don't think I'm going to be that impressed. And so but yeah, now we do. Now we do fake.

[A]

Okay. So anyway, comment on the YouTube video, either real or fake. We will choose somebody from the comments and we'll send some hats. There's also one other way we'll get that. You can get a hat in addition to just buying one off the little thing.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Show notes.

[B]

That's right. Wait, what?

[A]

New subscribers to the Show Notes. Right. We're going to send a hat to email. I don't know. I don't think you don't.

[B]

Wait, what's going on?

[A]

I thought we were gonna do the. If somebody. New subscribers to the Show Notes email subscription, we would choose somebody from that and send out. Do you not want to do that?

[B]

I'd love to do that.

[A]

Let's do it. I was gonna say we would love to do that this week.

[B]

So that's a great idea. Let's do that. And so hey, if you subscribe to the Show Notes this week we're also gonna pick a winner. And so by the way, and the reason we do Show Notes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships. And so if you're listening to this podcast, your next to join a group, a life group. Find your band of brothers, find your tribe. And this Show Notes that we are now calling the discipleship guide is actually we just put all together the questions, discussion questions. You can use key Takeaways, all the highlights, all of chat GPC's wisdom is in the discipleship guide. So to download this discipleship guide Text Guide to 20411, or go to Lakepoint Church guide. And speaking of Christmas, Pastor Josh, we have something very, very exciting happening next week, my brother.

[A]

We got 52, 52 candlelight services coming up at Lake Point.

[B]

That's a lot.

[A]

I'm preaching all of them live.

[C]

That's awesome.

[B]

That's a lot. And by the way, not really.

[A]

I'm not. I think there's, if I remember right, there's either seven or nine at the rock wall.

[C]

You're still putting.

[A]

I am doing those. I'm doing those.

[B]

It's like a workout, man.

[A]

It's. I, I, yeah, there's some things I do physically to make it through those.

[C]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. But I mean, it is. You got to get in. You got to be in game shape to preach.

[B]

Nice. People think you look like John Cena, but I think you are in great shape.

[A]

Hey. Hey, man. Thank you. Wait, I understand.

[C]

Like a backhand.

[A]

People say, do you look like John Cena? But I think you're in great.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I meant to say.

[C]

So is John Cena or Pastor Josh not in great shape? Which of those.

[B]

And by the way, what the heck, bro? We were just talking about that, people. The reason I brought it up is because, Paul, you, You told us that people say that about.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

My wife sent me a picture earlier today. She works as a teacher at school.

[A]

You need. I was going to say, get to the other part of the story. That sounds weird.

[C]

She works as a teacher at school.

[B]

Explain what you mean, sir.

[C]

We were making gingerbread houses, and for some reason, when the people for the gingerbread house put John Cena at the top of the house, I don't know if he was supposed to be Santa or whatever. And so all the kids at the school began saying, oh, oh, it's Pastor Josh on top of their gingerbread house. And actually, it was John Cena.

[A]

That's the background from what I've gotten is. Let me just be very clear. From the shoulders up, I. There was a phase in John Cena's life where I looked like John Cena from the shoulders up very clearly. The other one that I get, someday we should actually do a side by side on the pod. The other one I get is young Jean Claude Van Damme. Like, I get that a lot.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

All right, let's. Before we start talking about the Bible. Oh. So first of all, any pod Listeners, you. If you've never made it to an actual Lake Point service, you need to come to the county. So come hang. Bring your fam, men. That's a Christmas tradition. Especially if you're a dude. Especially if you're a dad. That's something you want your kids growing up going. And I'm going to be honest, like, low bar. Even if you're not a church guy yet, you want your kids growing up going. You know what, man? On church or on Christmas? We were at church with dad.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

All right. We were at church and mom, so come hang out. You can get those at Lakepoint Church Christmas. Hey, before we start talking about the Bible, can I follow up on the Home Alone thing from last week, please, bro? Okay, so last week we did this thing where we showed the whole. What are you laughing at?

[B]

I just. Well, we had some hats, and you.

[A]

Just said, bro, we'll get to that.

[C]

Okay, go ahead.

[B]

Yeah, I don't even know.

[A]

We're seven minutes.

[B]

Okay, I know.

[A]

So the. What he's talking about is a podcast listener made us. Made the three of us hats. Wait, we can't show them real quick. They made the three of us hats. This is a consistent podcast listener with things that are. That correspond to our show character. So he made me one that says bro, literally. And I said beforehand, I was like, I don't say bro, literally. And everyone in the whole podcast. Dude was like, you always say bro, literally.

[C]

Literally.

[A]

So mine says bro, literally. Carlos is.

[B]

Mine says, I got to read it. Vamos a pegar le este serdo.

[A]

Which means.

[B]

Which means, let's kick this pig in Spanish.

[A]

It's got an actual pig on the hat. That's it.

[B]

That's it, man.

[C]

And then, Paul, I've got a pistol missile. I've got a rocket or missile with the missile. Yes, on the hat. And chat.

[B]

Gpc.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Oh, yeah, and little small thing chat.

[A]

Pretty cool.

[B]

That's Marcus G. By the way, from Michigan. Shout out. To Michigan.

[A]

Shout out. Okay. Before we start talking about the Bible, So last week we did the Home Alone as a Christian movie. First of all, that went super stupid viral. It was amazing to see the comments. Yeah. Okay, so then we have all these podcast listeners that start, like, sleuthing this thing. Dude, I learned some stuff this week that makes it even better.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

All right, so let me go layer deeper. All right, this is amazing. So if you didn't know what we're talking about. So Home Alone Christian movie. So think about this. Okay. What's the Whole movie about. It's a story of a lost son. Luke 15. Lost sheep, lost coin, lost son. Jesus says that's the whole parable for Christianity. So then when we hit last week, I got to get a running start into this. So what do we hit last week is if you see that, the church scene. And we showed all the screenshots and everything. He walks in there. Cross is going across the foreground of the shot, signifying the presence of Christ. He sits down with a Christ figure. Old man Marley. We hit this last week. What's old man Marley doing when you introduce to him in the movie? He's salting the earth. Kevin makes a confession to him. Somebody pointed out that it's actually the moment Kevin makes the confession to the Christ figure that the movie turns and that that's when he's like, we're going to defeat the enemy. Sounds a little familiar. Okay. And then the thing that we really hit was the pierced hands. Okay. All right. So pierced hands, if you go back. We hit this last week. You go back, you see Old Man Marley's hands are pierced. All the way through, front and back. Nobody knows why. Okay. So, bro, we have a podcast listener who works in Hollywood. This guy. This is going to blow your mind. This guy sends me this, and he's like, oh, yeah, dude. The two guys that wrote Home Alone. Devout Christians. Devout Catholics. So then he sends me the original script of Home Alone.

[C]

No way.

[A]

I'm looking at it right now. I'm looking at it right now. So, Trinity, you're gonna toss these up. I'm gonna do a brief reading of what was supposed to happen in the original script of Home Alone. Whoa. When Kevin is in the church with Old Man Marley, the this is gonna blow your mind. So this is the original script. I'm not making this up. Okay. This is what was supposed to happen. Now, it's gonna take me a second. Just stick with me. Picture Old man Marley. Picture the church. Picture Kevin. Okay, now I'm gonna jump right in here. Marley looking up. I was baptized in this church. Kevin looks up. Then Marley says, I got married in this church. My boys got married in this church. I said goodbye to my wife in this church. Then Kevin, after a long pause, says, you got divorced in a church. This is supposed to be funny, right? So then Marley laughs and he snorts into his little handkerchief is what it says. Then Kevin smiles and Marley says, I don't laugh too much anymore, but you got me. He puts his hanky back. Then Marley says, what I meant was, was that the services for my wife when she died were here in this church. The script says Kevin feels terrible. Marley says, it won't be too long before they have my services here. Kevin, you shouldn't say that. MARLEY I'm an old man. I've had a lot of living. I'd like to be with my wife again. Kevin Is that possible? MARLEY I believe it. Up in the kingdom, not here. And then the script says. He points up there. Kevin says, oh, Marley. This time with my wife for eternity. Long pause. Marley says, so you've been a. You've been a good boy this year. Kevin looks up at Marley. After a long beat, he shakes his head no. Marley. You've been fighting. Kevin nods back. Talking, disrespecting? Kevin nods, telling fibs. Kevin. Thanks. He says a few. Marley says, maybe you ought to tell him.

[C]

Who?

[A]

Kevin says. Marley shifts his eyes up to the ceiling. Him. KEVIN. Should I bother him on Christmas? He's open all year round, 24 hours a day. KEVIN. Okay. Marley. He'll listen. You're a good soul. I'm not sure if I am anymore, Marley. You are. Bad souls can't bring themselves to come in places like this. Bit of a gospel mess, actually. What we believe is that it's actually when you realize you got a bad soul, you stumble in because you need some help. But that's all right. We'll forgive it. Kevin says, is that true, Marley? That's true. And you tell him about the trouble you had with your folks. Kevin is startled that Marley knows. Stick with me for just a second here, Kevin. You know about them? MARLEY Just a guess. You get on your knee and you ask him to fix things for your folks. And you say, please, and you say, thank you for all the other things that he's done for you. And then you go on home where you belong. And then it says, kevin kneels and he prays. And then he finishes and he looks back at Marley. And Kevin says, how long does it usually take for things like this to work? Marley says, give him till morning. Kevin says, okay. And then listen. The last thing it says is. Marley holds out his hand. Okay, now check this out, bro. I didn't hit this last week, so we learned earlier in the movie. It shows his hands are pierced all the way through. So think about this. What do you learn about old man Marley? He's like, I got a son. I haven't talked to him in years. He's got a prodigal son. So then you hear that, bro in the last scene of the movie. When Marley has just finished saving Kevin and you see him reunited with his prodigal son. Look at this. Throw that up. His hand is healed. He's like sort of a symbolic. A completion of the redemptive work of Christ. So there you go. Part two, Home Alone.

[C]

That's good.

[A]

A Christian movie.

[B]

Paul had a week to. Because he was skeptical last week.

[A]

Yeah. Paul, did we convince you?

[C]

I am way more convinced now. I'm not just saying it.

[A]

Come on.

[C]

They are definitely Christian themes that are undeniable. 100%.

[A]

Thanks for your admission.

[B]

That's amazing. I wonder what the original script said about the Pierce hands.

[A]

Don't know. I've got the whole script right here, but I haven't looked at it.

[B]

Okay. That's amazing. That's awesome, man.

[A]

Let's talk about Jesus in the Bible. Good.

[B]

Hey, Pastor Mike did a great job this weekend.

[A]

Crushed.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

And we went. Luke, chapter 2, verse 8 to 14. Fear not. Good news. Great joy, all people. Yeah, man. And so let's. Let's go a little bit deeper there. As we talk about joy. There's a joy seems to me like a word that Christians use. And so if somebody's listening right now and they're wondering, so is joy the same thing as happiness? Is this just one of those Christian words, like from the Bible, but it just basically means happy? Is there even a difference between joy and happiness?

[A]

I do think, first of all, what some people say is that man, if you actually do a word study on happiness and joy in the New Testament, the semantic range of the words is really similar. So really, is there a difference? What I would say is man. Even if there's a similarity in the lexical range of the two words in the New Testament, there is a difference in the concepts as people understand them. That's what I would say. So what I point out is. Let me get a run and start into it. What I will point out is it's in Second Corinthians, I think, where Paul starts running through this stuff, and he's like, hey, man, we are persecuted, but we're not abandoned. We're struck down, but we're not destroyed. We are treated as unknown, yet well known. He does this whole thing, and then he says something that does not make sense from a human perspective. He says, we are sorrowful, but we are always rejoicing. I think that verse alone provides a distinction from how most people think about happiness and joy. And here's what I would say is when I'm. When I'm teaching The Bible on this thing. What I'll say is the difference between joy and happiness is that happiness is based on happenings. Happiness is based on what is happening to you. So if the things that are happening to me are good things, then I can be happy. And if the things that are happening to me are bad things, then I cannot be happy. But when you get into the scriptures, what is very interesting, in fact, the thing that starts separating Christians and the people of God from the people of the world is that Christians are people who can have sorrowful things happening, happening to them and still be, quote, always rejoicing. So, dude, honestly, this is really interesting, man. If you go. Arguably my favorite book of the New Testament is the book of Philippians. If you go read Philippians, dude, this is really interesting. Paul writes Philippians from a jail cell where he is assuming or wondering that he is awaiting a death sentence. And yet when you read the book of Philippians, he mentions joy, rejoicing how happy he is more than any other book of the Bible. Why? Because there is a difference between joy and happiness. And Paul is able to have joy even with the things that are not happening to him are good. Okay, so what I would say is happiness based on happenings. Joy is based on Jesus. Let me just say one last thing here, because actually, I want to show an example of this from a really great golfer. Okay? It's Scotty Scheffler, isn't it? That's who that clip is. I want to show this real quick. What you're going to notice in the Bible is that joy is very often something that people come to when they actually exhaust resources for happiness. It's like, dude, I'll be really, really honest with you. My life, if I look back at my life, it's kind of like happiness, this thing. I also feel like a shadow where it's like, when I get here, then I'll be. Then all. And then you get there and the shadow is just a little farther out. So, like, honestly, man, if I don't know about you guys, when I look at my life, you know, it's like, man, as a kid, I was like, dude, if I can whatever the toy was that year, then you get a little older and it's like, man, if I just had a girlfriend, that'd be really, really great. And then you're in high school, it's like, I'll be happy when I get to college. I got a little more freedom. And then you get a college, I'm just gonna shoot you really straight. You know, you're. You're 18, 19. I'm like, oh, man, you know, when I can finally get married and have sex, so then. Then I'll be happy. That'll be then. Then you get married. Jay and I get married, and our first year of marriage, we. We lived. We lived with my parents and shared a bedroom wall with my parents.

[B]

Like, first year of marriage.

[A]

Yeah, it was within the first couple years. I do not recommend doing that. Let me just. And you know, it's like, ah. So then I'm like, oh, man, we. You know, man, maybe we can buy our own house. We got our own place. Then we'll be happy. And then you get it. You're like, well, that ain't it. When we have kids, Shannon did the infertility thing. Maybe when we have kids, we have a full family. They'll be happy. And then, dude, I look back at my life. It's like, man, maybe when I have a successful ministry and I'm like, successful, maybe then I'll be happy. And, dude, I be. It was the first year I preached Easter at Lake Point when I was in high school. I remember I had to write an essay in my class for like, man, what's your life dream? And in high school, you know, I was like, man, is. Maybe there was some flesh in here, but whatever. I was like, man, if I could ever. I wanted to preach. And I was like, man, if I ever got to preach to 10,000 people, I just think that that's life dream, you know? And I remember the first year I was at Lake Point, I finished preaching Easter and attendance was well over that. And I got off the stage and I remembered high school Josh thinking, if I ever preached 10,000 people, I will have made it. And I walked off the stage that first year, I was like, that wasn't it. And I honestly think you gotta come to the end of the happenings to realize, man, I need some joy. That's based in Jesus. So I'd say yes.

[C]

Yeah, I think on that, it reminds me a few things you said about the shadow. It reminds me. And I think you'll see this in the Shoffler video, the things he says. It's almost like from the book of Ecclesiastes.

[A]

Oh, I got that in my notes.

[C]

I keep actually stepping. You stole it again? No, go for it every week. But what's interesting is in the book of Ecclesiastes, he talks about vanity. Vanity. Everything is vanities. The word there is actually like the idea of vapor or mistiness. Think the idea of a mist that you can see or a fog, or even now that it's colder outside when you breathe and you can see your breath and you go out to grab it and you think you grabbed it, but then it just slips through your hands. That's the picture here. And so as you spend your whole life chasing these things that eventually make you happy, and then all of a sudden you get there and it just slips through your hands and it actually doesn't give you what you want. Because we were designed for more than even in Ecclesiastes, it talks about how eternity was set in our hearts. So if we're grat grasping anything besides God that we cannot possibly give us, but only God could give us is going to slip through and not give us the joy that we actually most want and need.

[A]

That's exactly right.

[B]

You have a video you want to show about that?

[A]

I honestly do. Like, so there's a million. So there's different things. I was like, show this. Jim Carrey's got that famous deal where he's like, I wish everybody could get rich and famous and whatever. So they could see that it's not the answer. Tom Brady has the famous 60 Minutes interview where he's like, man, I think at that time he'd won three Super Bowls. You know, he had a Victoria's Secret supermodel wife and most famous guy in the world. And you know, whatever. And he literally, in the 60 Minutes interview, he's like, he literally says, God, it's got to be more than this. Yeah, it's like, surely there's something more out there. And then this is. This is Scotty. This is. And this is. This was right after he won. Anybody remember?

[C]

I think he says the Byron Nelson or something like that.

[A]

No, dude, I think this is after you want to make. I think this after you're one of Masters. So for a non golfer, like, Scotty's like, punch in the world. He's like on fire right now. So, like, we won't watch this whole thing. So here's what this is. This is a living embodiment of the book of Ecclesiastes. He. He just finished his winning, whatever, how many majors he's won. He's number one golfer in the world and it's not close. And a reporter asks him, bro, what's it feel like to be the guy. You've got everything you've ever wanted. And I think the reporter's expecting like a, this is awesome. And instead you get a living embodiment of the book of Ecclesiastes. Run this real quick.

[D]

You know, I think it's kind of funny. I think, you know, I think I said something after the Byron this year about, like, it feels like you work your whole life to celebrate winning a tournament for, like, a few minutes. It only lasts a few minutes. That kind of euphoric feeling. It's a Miss Championship at home. I literally worked my entire life to become good at golf, to have an opportunity to win that tournament. And you win it, you celebrate. Get to hug. Hug my family, my sister's there. It's such an amazing moment. And then it's like, okay, now. Now what are we going to eat for dinner? You know, life goes on. This is it great to be able to win tournaments and to accomplish the things I have in the game of golf. Yet, I mean, it. It brings tears in my eyes just to think about. Because it's literally worked my entire life to become good at the sport and to have that kind of sense of accomplishment, I think is. Is a pretty cool feeling. You know, to get to live out your dreams is very special. But at the end of the day, it's like, I'm not out here to inspire the next generation of golfers. I don't. I'm not here to inspire somebody else to be the best player in the world, because what's the point? You know, this is not a fulfilling life.

[A]

It's.

[D]

It's fulfilling from the sense of accomplishment, but it's not fulfilling from a sense of, like, the deepest, you know, places of your heart. You know, there's a lot of people.

[A]

Okay, so, bro, that dude is literally preaching the book of Ecclesiastes, and he doesn't know it. So think about what he just said. I got it. It lasted two minutes. It's a mist. It's a vapor. No matter how much I get, I can't grasp something that will actually satisfy me. Okay, dude, so let me read these verses. So this is Ecclesiastes, and that dude just preached the book of Ecclesiastes. So this is. This is Solomon. Richest, most powerful dude in the world. He's got 700 wives and 300 concubines, or vice versa. And this is what he says, okay? He says, I undertook great projects. I built houses for myself and planted vineyards. I made gardens and parks and planted all kinds of fruit trees. In them, I made reservoirs and water groves of flourishing trees. I bought male and female slaves and had other slaves who were born in my house and others going, bro, I don't even got to work Is I got everything. I don't got to do anything, is what he's saying. I also owned more herds and flocks than anyone in Jerusalem before me. I am as silver and gold for myself and treasure of kings and provinces. I acquired male and female singers and a harem as well. The delights of a man's heart. In other words, he's going, however good you got it, I got it better than you. However much you won, I want more than you. However rich you are, I'm wealthier than you. I became he, even just. He just like dunks on him. I became greater by far than anyone in Jerusalem before me. In all this, my wisdom stayed with me. Then check this out. Verse 10. I denied myself nothing. My eyes desired, refused my heart no pleasure. My heart took delight in all my labor, and this was the reward for all my toil. Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done and what I had toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless. A chasing after the wind. Nothing was gained under the sun. Happiness is based on happenings. Joy is based on Jesus.

[C]

And then the counterpoint, in part, we go back to Philippians, which Philippians is one of my favorite books, too, is you then have Paul, who basically lists all of his accomplishments, and then he says, I count them as rubbish, as crap compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Jesus Christ. And so when you're like, it's not what Scotty says. Scotty's a believer. He's a strong believer. He's not saying, oh, life is meaningless, it's pointless. Is that, hey, if you chase anything except for Christ and anything except for the eternal God who's put eternity in your heart, man, you are going to come up empty. But then conversely, if it's like, not Solomon, but the apostle Paul is like, on the other hand, if you realize that everything in life, not that it's bad, but compared to knowing Jesus.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Is crap.

[B]

Yeah. And I think it's important to note that the reason why this is important is because Christianity is not only a belief system, but it's also a relationship that we enjoy. So the reason why that matters is because you can accomplish all the things and you can. Like again, we. We say this before, we don't follow Jesus because he makes life better. We follow Jesus because Jesus is better than life. And so joy is important because if you're, if somebody's listening and like, well, I, you know, I'm maybe interested in being a Christian or I've been a Christian for a bit, guilt will not sustain your A faithful walk with God.

[A]

Yeah, that's good.

[B]

It has to be joy.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Like if you want to walk with Jesus, long term guilt will not be enough or a fear of hell, which by the way, we're going to go into this in just a little bit. You have to realize that Christianity is not a whole bunch of has to, it's a bunch of gets to.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It's a relationship you get to have. You get to have intimacy with the father, you get to pray, you get to dive into the word. We don't read the Bible because we have to. We actually enjoy reading the Bible here at the live free podcast even. And so, and it's ironic because too when you look at Christianity, anybody would think that a religion of a cross, of persecution, of denying yourself and, and a religion that follows a crucified Messiah, that sounds the, the last thing joyful. But, but that's where the joy is found.

[A]

Well, you got, you know, it's really interesting, man. So like if you go a layer deeper on the, the, like a theology of joy, what's really interesting about Ecclesiastes. So Ecclesiastes, obviously written by Solomon. Solomon wrote three books of the Bible. He wrote Proverbs, Song of Solomon and Ecclesiastes. What's re. Here's this is, this is a little conjectures, but it is really interesting is that Solomon writes Song of Solomon when he's a young man. He's real happy. It's all about sex, lust, you know, he's real happy. Okay. He writes Proverbs in his middle age. Because a lot of people don't think about this. Here's all Proverbs is. It's a dad trying to impart wisdom to his boy. That's all Proverbs is. He's a dad trying to impart wisdom to his boy. So he writes Proverbs in his middle age. Then he writes Ecclesiastes. It's very obvious he's an old man. So what a lot of people think is that you get to see this progression of joy or a diminishing return of happiness in Solomon's life throughout the progression of these three books, the Bible. Now when you get to Ecclesiastes, if you read Ecclesiastes, we, we didn't plan to talk about it. Well, someday we're going to preach verse by verse through Ecclesiastes. I can't wait to do it. If you read Ecclesiastes, a lot of people, they read it and they're like, bro, that sucked. I honestly. That's podcast language, not pulpit language. But I'm just being honest. Like a lot of people, they read Ecclesiastes like, that was. That was terrible. Because literally the whole book is like, everything's meaningless and nobody's happy and literally nothing you do matters. But there's this one phrase. If you read Ecclesiastes, there's one phrase that forms the spine of the book. And he keeps saying throughout the whole book, life was meaningless. Quote, under the sun. Over and over again, he says, under the sun, under the sun, under the sun. Okay, so then you get to Ecclesiastes. I think it's either last chapter of Ecclesiastes, either 12 or 14. And basically what you get is he. He puts a reveal at the end of Ecclesiastes. And the last thing he says in Ecclesiastes, man, here's the secret, man. He basically goes, you gotta look for happiness or joy in something beyond and above the sun. And he's like, that's the only way you're gonna get it. That is why, by the way. So it's interesting. ChatGPT. I'll see. I've never had somebody show me the foil between Solomon and Paul. That's really interesting. I've never heard that before.

[C]

There's so many parallels there. And I think, like, oh, goodness. Like, part of what we have to understand when we're talking about this is I wouldn't even say Solomon is saying, don't enjoy life. Because the theme throughout Ecclesiastes is actually like, man, enjoy the life that you're given. And also he says, in other places, man, enjoy the life of your youth. The apostle Paul says, man, receive all good things from God with thanksgiving. So it's not that we're saying you can't enjoy the good things while they're there, it's that you can't build your life on the things that are enjoyable, and that can't be the source of your joy. I was at a church where we were talking about this from Philippians, and I've taken this quote, but I've added it and twisted. So basically, I'm about to give you is. The original wasn't mine, but the version as it is is now is that my joy is not determined by what is happening to me or around me, but what Christ has done for me, he's doing in me, and he wants to do through me.

[A]

Am.

[C]

So my joy can't be determined by what's happening to me around me. As you said earlier, the happenings but it must be determined by what Christ has done for me and then what he's doing in me and through me. So if you go to the book of Philippians, that's actually what you see in the first chapter as he talks about, hey, I'm in prison. But there's this great phrase, but what has happened to me has actually served to advance the gospel. So there's an example of Paul could have focused on what was happening to him around him, but he didn't. He reoriented his gaze towards, hey, what does Christ actually want to do through me right now and in me right now? And that's what allowed Paul to have in indestructible joy in every situation of his life.

[A]

This, honestly, man, what you're talking about right here like that right there is the entire secret of Christian life. When you get to the spot where it's like, hey man, this is not like living the Christian life, reading my Bible, going to church, singing the songs, whatever the things, this is not like doing a to do list. This is like drinking water. That's when everything changes. So then if you take what you just said back to the theology of Ecclesiastes and he's going, hey man, you got to look beyond the sun. This is where I think it was Blaise Pascal, he's the one that did God shaped hole. Or was that Augustine? I think Pascal was God shaped hole.

[C]

Pascal was God shaped hole. Augustine had a quote that kind of communicates our hearts are restless until we find a restart.

[A]

That's right, that's right, that's right. So. So what? So you take that back to the theology of Ecclesiastes. So let me actually, let me back up. Here's why this is important. I'm just going to talk especially dudes. What most dudes do is they go through this life progression. It's like, man, you're really young and it's like it's all about girls and sex. Or you know, if you go really, really young, it's like about toys and four wheelers and then it's about girls and sex and they get a little older and then it's about like, you know, whatever your thing is more expensive toys, more expensive toys, you know, whatever expensive toys. Then it's about success, then it's about status, then it's about money, whatever. It is what most people do. I got a pastor friend name, Joby Martin. He says it's the cul de sac of stupidity. You. I'm not. And it's actually a Good analogy. Most people. And if you look at your life, what you will notice is in every season of your life there is one of these things that is, Listen, it is under the sun that my heart is the. What's the. The hymn says, prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. And in every season, your life, there's a created thing that you begin chasing more than you're chasing the Creator. And, and what you spend your whole life doing is just shuffling the deck between things that do not satisfy you. They are meaningless and it's like a shadow that you can never catch. And so this is where the theology of Ecclesiastes digs in is Blaise Pascal. That's where he gets his little quote of inside of us there is a God shaped hole. He gets that from the book of Ecclesiastes where Solomon, in his old age, as a wise man who got beat up by life goes, God has put eternity into the hearts of man. In other words, nothing less than he who is eternal will actually satisfy you. Which, let's bring it all the way back to Christmas. That's why when the angels declare the birth of Christ, listen, who came from beyond the sun.

[B]

That's good, man.

[A]

They go, finally the thing has come that if you build your life on this thing, you will actually be completely satisfied.

[B]

Let's go, let's make this practical. So to be joyful in the Bible is not a suggestion, it's a command. Like literally all over the Bible, it tells us to rejoice, to find the light, to be happy, to seek that happiness in God beyond the sun. Like you're saying, Pastor Josh, if somebody's listening right now and they're like, well, you know what? I am a Christian and it is clear to me that I am lacking joy, maybe for this or that, maybe I'm going through something, what do I do?

[A]

There's a few things immediately maybe will pop in my head. First of all, a Christian should take their happiness like very seriously. Like you said, to be joyful. That is not a suggestion. The Lord has commanded that of us.

[B]

Rejoice. I'll say it again, rejoice.

[A]

These are commands. I actually had a pastor friend that I will not name who had an elder candidate at his church that he was considering for. And the guy checked every box first, Timothy three, Titus one. And they, they rejected him from eldership because, and I'm going to quote him, he did not take his joy seriously enough. In other words, like man, he's a moral man. He's just not overwhelmingly joyful. And they were like, you know, it's a big deal. A couple things I would say is, one, identify and confess any hidden sin in your life. There's a reason, I think it's Psalm 42, David says about his own sin. He says, when I kept silent, my bones wasted away. And I don't think Christians frequently enough connect. Oh, man. Like, my, like, joy meter is low. And they will not quickly enough make the connection to. I have a. I have a secret dominant sin pattern in my life. So that's one thing I would say. The other thing I'd say I'm gonna say one other thing. Maybe a little counterintuitive. And then I don't know what you. What you guys would say. So let me go back to the example of the Apostle Paul. So very interesting with Paul. The guy has nothing. He's an impoverished tent maker. He's constantly beaten and in and out of prison. Everywhere he goes, people hate him and they're trying to kill him. And he is the happiest man anybody knows. Okay, so, dude, what's really interesting with Paul, what's frustrating about Paul in the New Testament is you can't take his happiness. You can't take his joy away. So it's like, you know, they're like, hey, Paul, we're going to put you in prison. He's like, great, I'm going to convert your guards. You know, they're like, okay, Paul, well then, fine, then we're going to torture you. And he's like, okay, fine. Well, I do not consider the sufferings of this present world are worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed to me. You know, it's like, okay, Paul, we're going to kill you. He's like, great. To die is gain. Okay, we'll let you live. Great to live is Christ. You know, no matter what you do, you can't hit him, can't get him. So, honestly, dude, here's what I've noticed both about Paul and people. The happiest people in the world, they do not have fewer problems than you. The happiest people in the world, they have a purpose that's bigger than their problems. And it. It, like, it makes all of their problems worth enduring because they are aiming at something of surpassing weight and glory. Wow. So what I would say is, like, man, you know, get yourself an eternal purpose that you are living your life for. Like, I'm going to lay this thing down for stuff that matters and live and die for stuff. This stuff that matters, and you're going to notice that all of a sudden, like, your problems feel a little different. It's great thoughts.

[C]

Yeah, a couple of that. I'll just add one, even go back to what I said a few minutes ago about how my joy is not determined by what happens to me around me, but because of what Christ has done for me he wants to do in me and through me. I would just think on those three things then is if you're in a place where you don't have joy, spend some time thinking about what Christ has done for you and just the realization that even if your circumstances are bad, man, anything short of hell is a gift of grace. And then just think about all that Christ is on. Think about the Christmas story and how he humbled himself and took on flesh, ultimately went to the cross. Just recount that. Even if you think about Psalm 51 Connected, how David had a time where he didn't have repentance, but then he had a time of sin and he was repenting. What does he say? Restore the joy of my salvation. And so there's something about just recounting what Christ has done for you. Also just thinking, okay, Christ, what do you want to do in me? Like, it's like, hey, I don't want to waste a pain. I don't want to waste a trial. God, what do you want to do? It's like, the idea is like, hey, in jiu jitsu, you use the energy that is given to you and you kind of turn it. It's the same thing. It's like, hey, if stuff is coming at me or stuff is happening around me, great, okay, well, Christ, what are you going to do in me through this? I want to go be on the other side stronger and a better person. Then also, it's what you really just, you just said is, hey, Christ, what do you want to do through me? Like, if I'm going to endure some pain, I want to turn my pain into a pulpit and preach from there and use it for a purpose. The other thing, practically, this actually is a little bit of a twist on something CS Lewis did. He received this letter where basically the guy was like, he do I do if I'm not in love with my wife? And he would say, begin doing the things you would do if you were in love with your wife. Because if you just wait for the love to return, you're probably, it's never going to happen. Instead, do the things you do if you were. And then what you'll find is those feelings will Come back. And so I would say, hey, what would be the things you probably would be doing if you did have joy in Christ, and if you did have a sense of joy and begin doing those? And so, for example, just as one practical example of this, if you come into church on Sunday and during worship, you just kind of sit there and stare at the screen. You don't sing, you don't do anything. Guess what? Joy's probably not going to come in that moment. But if you begin engaging, even if you lift your hands and not hypocrisy, hypocrisy would be where you don't want it to come. But if instead you're saying, hey, I'm not, quote unquote, feeling anything right now, but I'm going to lift my hands in faith and I'm going to sing and engage, believing that my feelings are going to eventually catch up with my faith. What you will find, I believe, is that those feelings will catch up and you will begin feeling that joy again.

[A]

Exactly right.

[B]

Yeah. Just echo what you said, Paul. I think, you know, basically what you're saying is joy is not a feeling. It is also a choice and a skill that we learn as we follow Jesus. You know, you look at different passages in scripture, like Habakkuk 3, 17, 18, it says, when things don't go as expected, it says, yet I will rejoice. It's basically, it's when you're going through something and you say, man, I don't feel okay, and yet I'm here to worship. And yet God is still good.

[C]

Right?

[B]

And so, and then, you know, Jesus, The Bible says Jesus was a happy man. The Bible literally says, for the joy that was set before him, even as he. He's about to go to the cross, he had joy set before him. Hebrews chapter one also says God had anointed Jesus with the oil of joy.

[A]

That's right. By the way, it says, beyond all of his companions, he's the happiest ever. The book of Hebrews is literally saying, Jesus happiest guy that ever lived.

[B]

Luke, chapter 10. Jesus is full of joy through the Holy Spirit at the end of the day. The Bible also says joy is a full fruit of the Holy Spirit. So if you want to be joyful, be more like Jesus. Be filled with the Holy Spirit, and you will be joyful. Let me just wrap with this quote because we got to keep going here. Charles Purgeon said this. Those who are beloved of the Lord must be the most happy and joyful people to be found anywhere upon the face of the earth, Christians are the happiest people in the world.

[A]

Wait, can I. Can I. Can I dive on that Habakkuk 3 passage? Okay, so that Habakkuk 3, that's one of my favorite ones. So you said. I was like, bro, I got to get this. So. All right, so this. So here's what it does. End of Habakkuk 3. There's a little language in there that most people do not understand. This like, dude, this is like the. I feel like it's like the secret to the happy Christian life. So this is. The author of Habakkuk is like, things are really bad. So here's what he says. Okay? He goes, though the fig tree does not bud and there are no grapes on the vines. So it's like, hey, man, the bank account's empty, though. The olive crop fails and the fields produce no fruit. I'm in sales and I can't lock down a single daggum contract right now, though there are no sheep in the pen and no cattle in the stalls, man, our pantry is empty at home. And I don't know what I'm going to do this week, he says, yet I will rejoice in the Lord. I will be joyful in God, my savior. So he's going, you know what I'm going to do? I'm a worship now. Listen to this language, bro. The sovereign Lord is my strength. Here's a language people don't understand. He makes my feet like the feet of a deer. Some translations will say, he gives me hinds feet. So like, check. Check this out. And it says, he enables me to tread on the heights. So, like, this is a YouTube. You're going to have to watch to see what I'm going to show you my butt and thighs for a second. Be kind of awkward. So this. So this is what I saying is like, if you ever. You've been hunting and you see the hinds feet of a deer, it's like they got these real thick. I mean, real, real, real thick. It's like button thighs. So all the ladies who hear, he's going to make my feet like the hinds feet, they're like, please. No, he's talking spiritually. He's talking spiritually. And what he's saying, the reason that deer have those, like, these real thick, muscly, because God designed them to be able to jump, like, climb mountain. What he's saying. What he's saying is when you choose to worship in the middle of pain, it's almost like it puts these powerful hinds feet in you and it gives you the ability to walk through valleys with joy. So like here, here's what I've noticed is to what Paul just said. Is it like what I'd say is especially for dudes, man, don't try to be tougher than Jesus. Like, don't try, don't try walking a church service and like, oh man, I'm not going to worship. Be people lifting that. Like these are like biblical, actual biblical commands. Lift your hands. Clap. Shout for joy. Okay, what I've noticed is when I walk in before I worship, it's like my problems are big and my God feels small. And then what will happen? Habakkuk 3. Worship. Worship. Worship. Worship. Worship. Worship. Worship, worship, worship. And by the time I'm done, my God feels big and my problems feel small. There's the joy.

[B]

Rejoice big. That's great, man. Well, hey, lift. Free family. Before we jump back in, I've got something you cannot miss. Christmas at Lake Point is one of the most meaningful moments of the entire year. And our candlelight services are happening next week, December 21st to 24th. If you've never experienced it, imagine this. Thousands of people gathering across all of our campuses, worshiping together, singing carols, lifting candles in the dark as we celebrate the moment light stepped into the world. It is powerful, it is moving and it is also a chance for you and the people you love to come and encounter Jesus in a fresh way this Christmas. And so here's my invitation for you. Bring your family, bring your friends, bring your one more. And by the way, if you are a live free listener who lives in a different city or state, we would love for you to come visit and meet your you in person. For service times and locations, just go to lpchristmas.com or text the word Christmas to 20411 and we'll send you everything you need. Live free family. Let's celebrate the hope of Jesus together at our Christmas candlelight services. Well, now that we established that Paul has like 10 pagan trees at home, I want to know, I want to know more about this. Hey, is Christmas a pagan holiday? Yes. No. Paul, what say you?

[A]

Wait, do we have. Are we reacting?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we got a couple.

[A]

Let's show an example.

[B]

What do you got? Which one you want?

[A]

I don't know. You call me.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Well, Christmas.

[B]

Let me see. Trinity. We got, we got a couple people saying that Christmas is pagan and we wanna. Let's, let's play that one. You got that you found a tick tocker one. There's like a. Let's play the one you played before Trinity.

[A]

Which one are you talking about?

[B]

Oh, wait. Just kidding. Big Bang theory.

[A]

No, no, no. Okay, hang on. I want to do this in order. Okay, let's do this in order. Okay. So the. So the assertion is you're gonna hear this a ton at Christmas. You're gonna hear Christmas is a pagan holiday, Carlos. Did you know that?

[B]

Well, Paul clearly is living it out.

[C]

I went from five trees to 10 in the course of half an hour. But I mean, it's fine.

[A]

So here's what you're gonna hear. Christmas is a pagan holiday. And you're going to hear that, you know, actually it came from things like Sol Invictus or Saturnalia Christmas trees. They're actual idols. Paul, did you know you have idols in your house?

[C]

Apparently. Apparently the druids use them. So. Apparently I'm a modern day druid.

[A]

The druids use them. The book of Jeremiah specifically forbids cutting down trees and putting them in your home. So do you want to talk about this?

[B]

Yeah, please, let's go.

[A]

All right, let's. I mean, how do you want.

[B]

Okay, you want to show the clip of the. The big.

[A]

Let's do that. Let's take this in order. Yeah, okay. Let's take this in order. And then. And then we'll have fun with it. Okay, so here we go. We're gonna do a few Christmases of pagan holiday assertions and then we're gonna debunk them. So I'm gonna go ahead and give. Give away my. Give my cards away. No, Christmas is not a pagan holiday. No, the choice that it was on December 25 has nothing to do with paganism. Know the Christmas tree in your house has nothing to do with a pagan holiday. And I'm going to go a step farther and know you are not lying to your kids if you talk about Santa Claus. We're going to talk about all these. We just. All the bombs right there.

[B]

There you go. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think with that, and maybe it's just a teachable principle, it even goes back to a little bit what we talk about last week at the book of Enoch or things that are said about the Bible. When you see some of this stuff, especially on social media, I just count to a thousand on every side and just do a half decent little bit of research and you will find that almost all these assertions are based just on joke. I don't know if we'll get to this specific video but one we were shared around together is this even as a Christian basically saying, oh, you other Christians should stop doing all this because you're basically celebrating this pagan holiday. And he was pointing to this article for proof. And it was from the History Channel website, which most famous shows are about aliens and pawn stars. Just saying, you gotta do a little bit of research. Let's not freak out. But that being said, let's debunk some stuff together.

[B]

Okay, so the first assertion is December 25th. 25th was a date borrowed by a pagan festival.

[A]

Okay, let me say a few things, first of all, about this. So first of all, I don't think that that's true in any way, shape or form. I will say this, and we're going to apply this framework to both this and to Santa Claus, okay? With anything like this, Christians have three choices. And this is from an old paradigm from Bible teacher named Mark Driscoll. That's really helpful to me. So with things like this, Christians have three choices. You need to ask the question, is this something to receive, reject or redeem? There are some things in culture that Christians can receive. All truth is God's truth. All things are to be received with Thanksgiving. So there's some things that we just go, that's amazing. You know, there's a million examples. Some things can be redeemed. And this is what some people think that early Christians did with, for instance, the date December 25th at Christmas. Some people falsely, I think they think that what was happening was early pagans in Rome were celebrating things like Sol, Invictus or Saturnalia and that, honestly. So a whole bunch of pagans became Christians. And then everybody was like, well, dad gum, man, everybody's off work this week already for Saturnalia, and mom already made the dip and the uncles were already coming in. And so we might as well just celebrate Jesus birth, you know, so boom, we're just, voila, Saturnalia is now Christmas. Some people think that's how it happened. Now you're about to find out that's not how it happened. But what I would say is there would be nothing wrong with that. That would be an example of Christians redeeming something that was evil and redeeming it for a good purpose.

[C]

And so you basically what you're saying is it didn't happen that way. But even if it's did, let's stop freaking out. Because what it is, if anything, is early Christians would have said, hey, you've been given false worship to a false God, but we're going to lean into your traditions and then redirect it to become true worship of the true God. Even connecting to something we talked about earlier is the Apostle Paul would sometimes quote Greek pagan poets, and they were praising Zeus. He was obviously not telling them, oh, Zeus is real and you should worship him. Basically, he was starting where they were, but he was actually saying, no, Zeus isn't real, but Jesus is. Right? And so he was using things that they knew to be able to help them to worship the true God who wanted to know them, and he wanted them to know as well.

[A]

All right, so then. So you can. You can receive it, you can redeem it, or then there's some things that just be rejected. Like there's no such thing as Christian heroin, Christian pornography. There's no Christian pornography. You know, it's like, so receive, reject, redeem. We got to figure out what it is. Okay, now, so, but let's. Let's do a couple. Because you're going to get this stuff thrown at you at Christmas as a Christian. So let's debunk a few of these things. You ready?

[B]

I'm ready.

[A]

All right, play, play the Sol Invictus one. You got that? December 25th is not even in the Bible. That date. December 25th came after Soul Invictus. December 25th is actually the birthday of Sol Invictus, the Sun God, not Jesus. Okay? Wrong. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Okay. Even with the Napoleon down in, my voice still does not work. Okay.

[B]

I love the Dwight reference, by the way.

[C]

I was wondering if you'd catch it.

[A]

I guess Battlestar Galactica. Okay, so. So here's. And by the way, a lot of this I got from our buddy Wes Huff. By the way, Wes, we need you on the pod.

[C]

Yeah, let's go.

[A]

All live free listeners. Go spam Wes's content and tell them to come hang out with us on let's go. Please do. Please do. So, a couple of things. So the assertion was. So here's what you got. Sol Invictus was a Roman festival of the unconquered sun. Now here's the point is Wes points this out. It's not until at least the 4th century that anybody connects the Roman pagan holiday sol Invictus to December 25th and any earlier descriptions of Sol Invictus. They put it like March, September. It's literally all over the place. Okay, so here's what's really important. Christians had already. Before Sol Invictus was connected to December 25, Christians were already worshiping Jesus and celebrating his birth on December 25, before the Romans do it. And this is amazing. You go a layer deeper, actually, what a lot of historians think is the Romans moved their holiday to the Christian December 25, because they were seeing so many people worship Jesus. And they were like, we got to try to take this holiday and maybe.

[C]

It'D be good right here before we get to some of these, these other festivals, to explain why Christians did that. Because a lot of times this is the information that is left out. The reason that Christians celebrated his birth on December 25th is actually because they believed his death was on March 25th. And it was a common tradition at that time that if someone is a really holy person, you would say that they were conceived and that they died on the same day. Which this is another thing for another time. Goes to show you, from the very beginning, they believe that life began when, at conception. Another thing for another time, though. So think about it. If he was conceived on March 25th and we fast forward nine months, what day are we on? December 25th. And so that began celebrating on then based on that theory. Now, it doesn't mean that they are right, but that's why they were celebrating on that day.

[A]

So to make this clear, because it was interesting diving into this this week. So what they. Here's how they got to that date. Early Christians got to that date. So they started with the assumption, hey, if a very holy person, they would die on the same day that they were born. So then we know Jesus, we know around Jesus death day because he died right there, you know, Passover time. So they, they extrapolated from the date of the Passover of his death forward nine months. And that's how you get December 21st.

[C]

And we have primary sources that tell us this. So when we say primary sources, that's again, a good thing just to know is that when you see people refer to this stuff, usually times they're just taking secondary sources. Books people have written that have contained falsehoods or agendas. You go to primary sources of people who are actually there at that time. So we have the phileokalan calendar of 354. It had Christmas listed on December 20.

[A]

Like two weeks ago.

[C]

Yeah, Chrysostom in the 4th century. At first I thought you were serious. And I looked upon his nightstand, the Philo collection.

[B]

That's his devotional book this morning.

[C]

I'm gonna bring it as a gift for you guys next week. Chris Austin was a preacher in the 4th century, one of the greatest preachers in Christian history. He said Christmas was on December 25th. And it had been a tradition for a long time. That's really important tradition.

[A]

So Chrysostom even mentions.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That it was a long standing tradition by the time he writes about it in the. In the three hundreds.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so when we even talk about. Oh, that they didn't establish that festival Sol invictus until the 4th century, the idea is that this was already been a tradition of Christians before then. So if anything, we can make the assertion back to what you said earlier that they copied us, not vice versa.

[A]

So this is, it's really funny actually. People should be walking into whatever remaining Roman pagans and being like, you're doing a Christian holiday, take down that tree. Okay. In fact, so I'll point this out. This is a historian, Thomas Talley. He wrote about this. So this is a historian. He even says this. It's more likely the Roman emperor Aurelian placed sol Invictus on December 25th to compete with the growing rate of Christianity. So it's literally the exact opposite of what you get in your little TikTok deconstruction videos. It's not that Christmas try to, you know, take the place of Sol Invictus. It's that the opposite. They tried to. Okay, so that was number one. Number two, very common assertion. Okay. Hey guys. It wasn't Sol Invictus. Chatgpt. It was Saturnalia.

[C]

Saturnalia.

[A]

Yep, it was Saturnalia. So show that one real quick. Well, you got your happy. This is like an often atheist little subreddit. Happy Saturnalia and then do the big bang. Yeah, do the Big Bang theory. This even makes it a Big Bang theory. Gather round kids. It's time for Sheldon's beloved Christmas special. Hey Sheldon, are you and Leonard putting up a Christmas tree? No, because we don't celebrate the ancient pagan festival of Saturnalia.

[C]

Saturnalia.

[A]

In the pre Christian era, as the winter solstice approached and the plants died, pagans brought evergreen boughs into their homes as an act of sympathetic magic intended to guard the life essences of the plants until spring. That part's true. This custom was later appropriated by northern Europeans and eventually it becomes the so called Christmas. That's not true. And that, Charlie Brown, is what boredom is all about. Big Bang theory. So chat. Paul C. Chris, Christmas actually you're worshiping on the pagan holiday Saturnalia. What say you, Chachi?

[C]

Pauly, that would be an amazing coincidence and an amazing argument to make. The only problem is Saturnalia is not on December 25th.

[A]

Whoopsy daisy.

[C]

It starts on December 17th and goes to the 21st, 4th. And so just because you're close does not count. Close counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. But not when we're determining whether Christians copied pagans.

[A]

Yeah, I was looking at this this week. There's literally not a single example in recorded human history of Saturnalia being celebrated on December 25th. Yeah, like not even one. And so he talks about wreaths and bows and what he, he makes the assertion that's where we got Christmas trees. That is not at all where Christmas trees came from. We're coming to that here in a second. Okay, now, TikTok deconstruction assertion number three. Christmas is bacon holiday. ChatGPT. I'll see. Actually, actually, actually, what's happening is pagan false gods like Tammuz, Horus, Hora Mazda, Mithra, Adduce, Dionysus, they were born on the winter solstice. And actually Jesus was modeled after all of these pagan gods and goddesses that were born in the winter solstice. And so Paul, actually, Jesus just fits right in with these long line of pagan gods and goddesses and you're worshiping him. In fact, show the. Show the Mithra. You got. This is, you can see this. This is like a atheist subreddit thing. They do this. Mithra is the reason for the season. Happy winter solstice. So you got Chad G. Palsy.

[C]

Again, false. You really have no official text from any of the original languages that put them on there. There are some Romans who do in terms of, for example, the Horus. There's a common thing about Horus, but there's no Egyptian texts that ever say it was on December 25th. Later in Rome, there were a few people in the 4th century, again around the same time, again as Christmas was already being celebrated, who had put it on there. But we have to be very careful not to immediately say correlation equals causation. That is actually a huge thing here in general with this entire discussion. Just because other people have stuff around there or do some similar things does not mean that one caused the other. In fact, one of the silliest videos I watched in all this would try to connect Horus to Ishtar and that, oh, you know, Ishtar was about the birth of babies on, guess what, March 25th. And then it was the death of those babies in sacrifice. And with the. I think it was with Horus on December 25th. The problem is that Ishtar, Ishtar and Horus are from completely different countries and religions. Ishtar is a Mesopotamian God. So I'm just giving these examples that when you kind of get some half truths here and there, you can weave this really fanciful tell. Once you dive into the actual history of it, there's nothing there. And anything that is there is correlation, but not causation.

[A]

That's right. So what I want to go back to. So let's. Let's just pound the nail in for listeners. Okay, so here's the deal. Nobody knows when Jesus. Nobody has any idea when Jesus was actually born, as I've pointed out before. And I think Christians should understand. It's a good little thing to understand at Christmas is Jewish historians tell us that shepherds would have been in fields with their flocks probably from sometime like March to November. And the Luke 2 account says when Jesus was born, they were with their flocks by night. So probably Jesus was not born in December. We probably know that during the winter rainy months. Totally unlikely. But again, I just want to say it one more time so listeners understand where it came from. So where did December 25th come from? Again, there's that early Christian idea that somebody is probably that's very holy is born on the same day that they die. We know when Jesus died because we have that around the Passover. They extrapolated nine months forward, December 25th. But the big idea is. Has absolutely nothing to do with a pagan holiday.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah, but. But the trees are pagan, though, right?

[A]

I love it when we get deconstruction.

[B]

Yeah, but the trees are definitely pagan.

[A]

Oh, man. You want to do this? You want me to.

[C]

You can start.

[A]

All right, let's go.

[C]

I'll finish if anything.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Because I don't see them in the Bible. And Jeremiah.

[A]

You don't see any trees in the Bible. Whoa.

[B]

I don't see. In the Bible.

[C]

There's a very prominent tree.

[A]

Very important tree in the Bible there. Yeah, a few of them. Yeah.

[B]

But there's no pagan trees in the Bible. But there's a verse in Jeremiah that actually literally forbids putting on.

[A]

Let's do that. Okay, let's do this. So you get. You get like, really angry fundamentalist Christians and they. So here's the things they throw at you. Okay, let's take these in order. Okay. First of all, Christmas trees, not remotely pagan from any reputable source. Three, I'm aware of three. I'm aware of three potential origin stories for Christian Christmas trees. Okay. And they're all kind of awesome. All right, so number one, in the 8th century, St. Boniface, there's a whole St. Boniface was awesome. This is a whole different thing. St. Boniface cuts down a sacred oak tree that converted pagans where they had been worshiping Thor. Saint Boniface, my brother was a bro. He walks up and chops it down in front of the village.

[C]

And if you don't go Google an oak tree, this is not like a skinny little pipe.

[A]

Chops it down, okay. Chops down the tree dedicated to Thor. They're worshiping this tree dedicated to Thor, as the story goes. When he finishes doing that, he points to a nearby fir tree and dedicates it to Christ. This is around the 8th century. So this is 7 hundreds. That is one potential origin story of the Christmas tree.

[B]

And I believe there was like a revival happening after that. So I think that's why, you know, it picked up.

[A]

That's. I'm unfamiliar.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Is that. Is that.

[B]

That's what I read.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Chad, gpc.

[A]

That's great.

[C]

I haven't researched that part.

[B]

Let's go pretend somebody can go. You can. You can fact check it.

[A]

There you go. That sounds right to me. Here's another one. Okay. Another potential origin story of the Christian Christmas tree. So in the 1500s, there was something called a paradise tree. Okay. Now this is in Europe. This is where they're doing this in Europe. And what they would do is they would take. This is a Christian tradition, an explicitly Christian tradition, they would take an evergreen tree and cover it with fruit to represent the Garden of Eden. Then in these little European towns, they would have a play on December 24, Christmas Eve, telling the Genesis story around the paradise tree. Then at the end of that, they would take the fruit off the paradise tree. And then that night on December 24th, Christmas Eve, they would decorate the tree for Christmas to sort of point to the restoration of all things and a new earth. And that is another theory about where the Christian Christmas tree comes from.

[C]

Little small wrinkle in detail at that you may have hit. Part of it is that December 24th was the feast of Adam and Eve. So you had different feast days.

[A]

I did not know know this.

[C]

And so feast of Adam and Eve. Adam, the first Adam. And it's his sin that causes sin to come into the world. And then guess what we celebrate the next day, Christmas. Who. Jesus is called the second Adam.

[A]

So if you want to. So, by the way, for listeners who are like, first Adam, second Adam, that is one of the most fun little theological parallels in the entire Bible. So, like, if you know. If you know. So this is a whole podcast episode someday. So Think about Adam. Adam is what theologians call the federal head. It's called federal headship. The federal head of all mankind. So Adam sins and Adam's sinfulness is imputed to all of humanity. Think about this. Where did Adam commit his first sin? At a tree. Okay, so then the reason that Jesus, the book of Romans calls Jesus the second Adam, because Jesus comes again as a federal head of mankind. By the way, there are only two people in all of human history who had God as their biological father. Adam and Jesus. Federal headship of Adam and Jesus. Where Adam failed at a tree in the New Testament. The New Testament consistently. This is very interesting. The New Testament consistently refers to the cross not as the cross as a tree. Peter in particular. Peter in particular refers to the cross as a tree. So whereas Adam failed at a tree and his sinfulness was imputed to all of humanity, Jesus, the second Adam succeeds at a tree. He sees the cross, and for the joy set before him, endures the cross, despising its shame, succeeds at a tree. And because the second Adam succeeded at a tree, his righteousness is imputed to all mankind who place their faith in him.

[C]

In the garden with Adam and Eve, Adam says, don't blame me, blame my wife.

[B]

Oh, bro, there you go. There you go.

[C]

And at the second tree, Jesus says, don't blame my wife, blame me.

[A]

I love the Bible. Oh, my gosh.

[C]

Christmas trees.

[A]

There you go. Christmas tree. So anyway, that's where you get the paradise tree, by the way. That's why. That's why people historically have liked putting the Genesis narrative right next to the Christmas narrative. There's a reason that for all of church history, people have liked, especially Catholics, Protestants should really start. Team Protestant. We should start working that in. Yeah, but that. That's the reason people have historically liked putting the Genesis narrative right next to the Christmas narrative. That's great. Okay, now the third one. Can I do the third one? Yeah, please. Christmas tree theory on why Christians. The third one is connected to probably like one of my three favorite figures in church history, Martin Luther. So it's just a. A story attributed Martin Luther that he's taking a stroll. He's obviously in Germany. Martin Luther's a German. Martin Luther is a super interesting dude. Super interesting dude. He's taking a stroll at winter in Germany, and supposedly he's just looking around. He's overcome with the beauty of the stars, and he's looking out over all these evergreen forests and all this stuff. And he was so overwhelmed by it that he cuts down a tree in the Winter in Germany puts it up in the hall of this little house or castle he was staying in, lit a bunch of candles and then put them on the tree to sort of recreate this, man. The stars over the fir trees, all this stuff. So that tradition became well known in Germany first where Martin Luther did this. Then eventually it gets brought over. This is as. This is how people trace it eventually. It's only practiced in Germany eventually in the 19th century. So this is the 1800s, Queen Victoria in England, in Great Britain, she marries her German cousin, dude named Prince Albert. He brings over the Martin Luther tradition of chop down a tree around Christmas, put the candles on it. He brings that over to Britain. People begin associating that practice with royalty. It becomes like a. Well, if the Queen's doing it must be awesome. And then it spreads throughout Christianized Europe. So that's your third theory on where it comes from.

[B]

Yeah, but. Okay, so sure, but then Santa Claus is definitely pagan.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. We're not there yet.

[C]

Before we get there, I will say on that, going back to my. Gotta remember that we shouldn't equate correlation with causation. And it's an important point for here and so many other symbols is that just because that there are some symbols that span different religions and stuff like that doesn't mean that one is immediately borrowing from the other or that's causing the other. It just means that there's common symbols and practices. And so even let's put it like this. Did pagans pray? Oh, so wait a second. Christian prayer is pagan.

[A]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[C]

Did pagans sing? Of course they did. Oh, wait a second. So no, it means there's common practices that span everything. And the same thing with some common symbols. Wait a second, you mean that other religions use water to symbolize that they have cleansing? Does that mean that Christian baptism is taken? No, if anything, actually I would turn it. Usually it's atheists making these silly arguments. I would actually say, hey, so why is it that 99% of the world all point to these common things, but you're the only ones that are right and everyone else is wrong? Actually, I would argue that some of these common practices and symbols go back to Ecclesiastes. Is the idea that God has put eternity into the hearts of people. And yes, sometimes they. Unfortunately, many times they do that and they falsely worship God and God has no one to account for that and they cause them to repent of that. But it also should show us that man, these common things we see all over the world of civilizations who, by the way, were completely separated from each other. It's not like today, like, I don't think Martin Luther necessarily knew about druids. Okay.

[A]

Why not?

[C]

But I actually would say that it actually shows there's something in people that's drawing them these things. But then Asius Lewis once talked. Go, just look it up. He talks about how Christianity is the myth that became fact.

[A]

That's right. That's right.

[C]

It's the idea that so many of the longings of people were actualized in a real person named Jesus Christ who came really to the world. So.

[A]

So one last thing on this, Carlos, because you. You. You mentioned it. So what. What angry fundamentalist homeschool moms will do?

[C]

And I'm.

[A]

And by the way, I'm allowed to make that joke because our family is like a fundamentalist homeschool family. I'm allowed to make the joke. So what they'll do is they'll point to Jeremiah 10. Oh, yeah, okay. They'll point to Jeremiah 10 and they'll go, carlos, the Bible literally forbids you chopping down trees and putting them in your house. You have an idol in your house, Carlos. So this is the Jeremiah passage. Jeremiah 10 starts in verse 2. This is what the Lord says. Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the heavens, though the nations are terrified by them, for the practices of the people are worthless. They cut a tree out of the forest. Here we go. They cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold. They fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. Now, a lot of people are like, there it was, bro.

[B]

There it goes, man.

[A]

No Christmas trees specifically says in the Bible. Well, here's the problem with that, okay? Jeremiah is not talking about Christians putting up a tree in their house. Oh, by the way. That every time we look at it, we should remember the tree that Jesus was born to go die on. That's not what he's talking about. In the very next verse in Jeremiah 10, he makes clear Jeremiah's talking about craftsmen who were cutting down trees to fashion them into idols. He uses the analogy of a scarecrow. He's like, you're making this so. In the same way that a scarecrow looks like a human, it's got eyes and a mouth and ears, but it can't see, it can't talk, it can't hear. He's going in the same way. These dudes are making these little idols. He's not talking about. He's talking about. What he's forbidding is idol worship.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And unless I'm missing something, I don't think we got a bunch of Lake Point families who are gathering around their Christmas trees and offering sacrifices to the trees.

[B]

Yeah, we hope not.

[C]

If you are, stop it.

[A]

Repent. Yeah. If that's you.

[C]

I don't think there's any of that.

[B]

If that's you. This verse is for you.

[A]

Yeah, I'm good with that.

[B]

Okay, so. But. Yeah, but. Okay, sure. But Santa Claus, though, who's Santa Claus?

[A]

Okay. All right, so let's talk Santa. So here's the question. This is the Christmas episode. Here's the question. Should Christian families do Santa Claus? Now, I'm going to kick it to you, Chad G. Paul C. Here in a second because the origin story of where we got Santa Claus is stinking awesome. Okay, but let me just go back to original, our original paradigm. What Christians should be asking with anything like this, whether it's Halloween or Christmas trees or December 25th or Santa Claus, is this something we receive, reject or redeem? Okay, so here's what I would say is. And again, total credit because this is really helpful. I got this from Driscoll. Also is what we want to distinguish as families. If you're a dad or a mom, we want to distinguish between four things. Lies, secrets, surprises, and pretend. We do this with our kids. We teach them the difference between lies, secrets, surprises and pretend. So as a family, what we say is we don't do lies and we don't do secrets. But we do. We say yes to surprising and pretending. So no lies, no secrets. But we're good with surprising and pretending. Okay. Santa Claus, modern, modern day version of Santa Claus, It's a myth built on top of a very, very Christian history. Okay. We even have saints punching heretics. So Chad G. Paul C. Will you talk about the origin of where Santa Claus came from?

[C]

Gladly. I love this man. This is Nicholas St. Nicholas, so 4th century pastor, Bishop from Myra in Greece. And he is known for a few things. Number one, he's known for being an insanely, just godly, generous man and so constantly would be dropping money in to people's shoes that were left out chimneys. Basically just gifting people and helping the poor, buying back females who'd been sold into slavery. Just an incredibly generous man, but also not afraid to stand up for Jesus and to confront heresy. And so this is amazing right here.

[A]

This is amazing right here.

[C]

My favorite stories about St. Nicholas is that at the Council of Nicaea 1700 years ago, they were debating what we. I think it was a week ago, talked about what was called something called Arianism. Aryans believed that the Son of God was not God, but that he was a created being. He was the first being created by God, which is not orthodox Christianity whatsoever. That is a heresy. And so they had this council and Arus came and presented his views. And it is said that St Nicholas slapped him across the face, rebuking him for those views. And this is the origin of probably one of my favorite memes that I think we actually have. That's right about St. Nicholas Down. I think it's San Diego right there. It's time to give presents and punch heretics. And I'm all out of presents.

[A]

It goes so hard.

[B]

Merry Christmas. Filthy animal.

[A]

So, yeah, and Paul, there's also.

[B]

We, you know, they found a photo of how it happened. Trinity. Go ahead and put that photo. That's. That's basically.

[A]

That's basically no way.

[B]

That's the photo that they discovered. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you see? This is my meme. And then the other one was Paul's meme. So, you know, okay, anyways, you can take that down.

[C]

So what happens after his death is that legends begin spreading just about his generosity and inspires people to basically go into the same. So people begin putting gifts and things into shoes specifically around St. Nicholas's death, which is on December 6th. I love it because I share that birthday with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So it becomes basically his death. His death day becomes a day where they say celebrate him and they celebrate by giving gifts. So because comes to tradition for the next thousand years, spreads all over Europe, eventually go to the time of the Reformation, our boy Martin Luther is about to make a reappearance. So Reformation comes along and they're trying to do away with a lot of things, all things Catholic. And one of the things they really want to do is do away with is venerating saints. But they want to hold onto the tradition of giving gifts because, man, that's just an expression of how the Father gave his son as a gift for us. We give gifts to others. And man, it's just a beautiful expression of that.

[A]

Really quick, let me just say something because this is really important. Important. So that Protestant Catholic distinction on the veneration of saints is really important. So. Because this is going to make sense of some stuff in the Santa Claus story. So obviously with Catholics, you have individual people and there's a very like a highly defined Process about how somebody eventually gets canonized as a saint. What the Protestant reformers came along in starting. It was starting in 1499, right? Was it 14 or 15 guys?

[C]

Like 15? Well, like Luther is like 15, 16, 17.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So early 1500s.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So they come along and they insist, if you've ever heard of the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, or the saint or the sainthood of all believers, that was the aggressive Protestant assertion over and against the Catholic Church's tendency to canonize saints. So in other words, the Protestant Reformation comes along and says, no, no, no. It's not like special dudes who confirmed three miracles. No, no, all of us are saints.

[C]

We can honor the heroes of faith, the past, but we don't have to venerate them.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And so that's. Even St Nicholas became the patron saint, obviously of children, but also of the falsely accused pawnbrokers, archers, and unmarried people.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

So if you're single, sorry, no need to pray to St. Nicholas, because that's not how this works. But just know he is your patron saint. But anyway, so eventually, Martin Luther wants to get it all that. So he says, hey, why don't we move the gift giving from December 5th and 6th to December 24th and 25th and associate with Christmas? And he, instead of making it about St Nicholas who was giving the gifts, he made it about Kris Kendall, the Christ child, which later from the German became Kris Kringle, who then became synonymous with Santa Claus. Okay, so speeding up a little bit in terms of how we get to where we're at today. You do have the Dutch who bring over into the Americas this idea of Sinterklaus, which is just their way of saying St. Nicholas, and so bring over some of those traditions. Same thing of gift giving. And then eventually, in the 1800s, you have a couple of big poems towards the night before Christmas that we all know and a few other things that basically made the popularization of it explode. And I believe it's sometime around the 1930s that you had the popular depiction of Santa come. So basically starts with 4th century amazing Christian pastor who gave gifts. Then other people continue that tradition. Reformation. We move it from December 5th and 6th to December 24th and 25th comes over to America and you kind of get more of a popularization of it.

[A]

So here's. I'd say if we go back to the original question, so should Christians do the modern version of Santa Claus? North Pole elves, red hat, you know, coal, cookies, milk. Should Christians do it? Let's Go back to our original question. Is this something Christians should receive, reject, or redeem? And let's go back to our original thing. Here's what we're going to say. We say no to lies and secrets. So I'm going to tell you how the Howards and family does it. In our family, we do not do lies and we don't do secrets. So we're not going to lie to our kids. So anytime our kids, here's what we did. We've got a book. And I wish I had the name of the book. I'm a text channel. Literally, right now, we've got a book. Chad G. Paul C. Can you say something? One of you start talking for five seconds.

[C]

No, I like it. No lies and secrets. Yeah, same thing. We basically say we're not going to outright lie. But, man, there is a difference between that, to buy you a little time of that and pretending. Because even just is a thing that I point out here for some of our very adamant people of no, you should not do this at all is I doubt those same people would go to Disney and when their kid runs up to see Mufasa, say, hey, just so you know, that is not a real line called Mufasa. It's a man dressed in the costume. No, it's the idea of like, man, we can play along with our kids pretending, pretend, but don't cross the line of lying. And a lot of this is about the intent of your heart. Are you intentionally trying to deceive your kids and lead them on? That's even then a little bit different than playing along with something pretend. 10.

[A]

So here's our things. I'm a what Janet? I'm going to see if Janet takes me back. So here's our things. Number one, Christmas about Jesus, not about Santa Claus. That's like in the Howard, where that's a big thing for us. Christmas about Jesus is not about Santa Claus. So we talk about that a lot. Okay. Number two, we, we grow up from the time they're like real, real, real. Little Jana's got a like. And it's awesome. Like, I love reading it. We got a little book about the real story of the original.

[B]

Great story.

[A]

It's a great story about the original St. Nicholas. And we tell them him he was a Christian man, an amazing godly man, loved kids, gave gifts, gifts, worshiped Jesus, punched heretics, all the cool things. Okay. I'm not recommending you walk out and start punching heretics, but he did. Okay, maybe right time, right place. So we read all that to him, we do the little, you know, the Santa Claus, hey, Santa Claus bring gifts, that kind of thing. But it's very clear in our home, hey, man, this is a pretend. This is the category of pretending. She just texted me back. So this is the category of pretending. And then if our kids. We had. And I won't say which ones are which, we had one kid that didn't immediately get like, oh, so, like, this is a pretend thing for St. Nicholas. And what we'll do is we'll just say something like, when we talk about Santa, we'll say, hey, there's something about Santa that we're not telling you yet. And we can't wait to tell you. You. And that way it's like, you know, hey, when they get to whatever the age is, we're like, you know, what we didn't tell you is this is pretend. And what we're really doing, it's all about St. Nicholas. So that's how we do it. Janet just texted me. It's called the captivating story of St Nicholas, a man who spent his life secretly helping the poor and giving gifts. That's it. I strongly recommend parents grabbing that book. Awesome. To read to your kids around Christmas.

[B]

We'll include in the discipleship guide.

[A]

There you go.

[C]

So even to kind of recap and consolidate, what you said is that you're saying, hey, don't lie.

[A]

Don't lie.

[C]

And then number two is that, hey, don't give Jesus your leftovers.

[A]

That's it.

[C]

It's like saying, man, if you do decide as a family, and probably, I think on this is also like, if you really feel convicted in your heart and mind that you should do it. Okay, well, then don't. Now I will say, then don't have your kids be those kids who go to school and try to ruin it for everybody else. You obey your conscience and let other people be able to obey their conscience kind of a thing. But basically, hey, don't give Jesus your leftovers. Like, the way I like to think of it is this. And even I think I told you guys a few weeks ago, the closest that Amy and I came to breaking up, either during or just before engagement was over.

[A]

Santa, bro, you gotta give me the 30 seconds.

[C]

Okay, so she already had had Nate, and they had already been celebrating Christmas for a few years. And Christmas is also a big deal in the family she came up in. And I just was like, well, hey, you know, I think I would maybe want to celebrate it because Santa gives all the attention. Maybe can we Just do something like, I don't know, celebrating on December 24th of, like, the Santa part, and then, you know, focus on Jesus. 25th. She did not think that was a great suggestion. And I'm not blaming on her, by the way. I could have done a way better job of broaching this and then leading through the conversation. And then there was misunderstanding. We didn't talk for, like, a couple days. Eventually we did, but part of it is I was like, you know what? If the obituary of my relationship is gonna happen, I'm not gonna let it say Santa is the reason for the cause of our death. So anyways, no, we made it past that. But my heart behind that was, hey, let's make sure that the same amount of energy and time we're putting into Santa or Elf on the Shelf or whatever, that we're not then giving Jesus, by the way, far greater miracle of the incarnation than that other stuff could ever be. Let's not give him our leftovers. That basically what you're saying, it's like, hey, don't lie. Don't give Jesus your leftovers.

[B]

Mistletoe.

[A]

I don't know anything about mistletoe.

[B]

Oh, I thought you say. Okay, I don't know. Just kidding.

[A]

Never mind.

[C]

Even if it's. Even if it's pagan, it's not like churches are hanging up in the auditorium. I mean, I think single people maybe would want that sit strategically in some places. But.

[B]

Yeah, okay, but Pastor Josh. But, you know, like, one thing that really bothers me is when people, instead of saying, Chris, mushroom Christ, must they do X? That's wrong, right?

[A]

Ah, okay. Yeah, that's wrong. This is fun. Okay, this is a little fun. All right, so real quick, keep the X and Xmas. That's what I would say. Okay, So a lot of Christians miss this. There is. I. There is absolutely nothing wrong, in my opinion, about abbreviating Christmas as Xmas, because it's actually not being abbreviated as Xmas. That is a Christian tradition. Early on in the Christian in church history, people started abbreviating the word Christ. The Greek word is Christos. The first letter of Christos is the Greek letter chi. That looks like a big X. It's actually a Christian tradition to abbreviate Christ as that big X. It's not an X, it's a chi. So when you see that. I think it started in the 16th century that Christians started doing that. When you see that people are literally. They're keeping the Christ in Christmas by putting that abbreviation that Christians. It's a Christian tradition Christians came up with. And so absolutely nothing wrong with it. Keep the X in Xmas.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

There you go, man. Bottom line, the real Christmas gift did not come wrapped in a beautiful package and set under a tree. It came wrapped in flesh and it was offered nailed to a tree. Don't miss that.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Pastor Paul, now that I know that your 10 Christmas trees are not pagan, would you pray for us?

[C]

I would love to, yeah. Even off of Father what, what Carlos just said. Thank you you for sending your son and Jesus, thank you for coming. You, who were infinite, became intimate that the incarnation is arguably the single greatest miracle that has ever happened. That you who were uncreated, somehow, in a sense, became created as a human being, that you were with us and that because of you being with us, you also ultimately were for us because you went to the cross for us and instead of us. And so, God, in this Christmas season, Lord, I want to pray that you would help us to truly have you be the center of all that we do. That, God, all these other traditions that we've talked about, Lord, which you let all of them be simply used as tools to point us towards you who came and died for us, God. Even go back to what we talked about earlier in the podcast. Lord, I want to pray in this season, especially for those who maybe the circumstances of life are hard, God, in the middle of the pain, in the middle of the trial, help them to remember that you came down to a world that was broken. You came down to a situation that was really tough. And I want to pray that they would know that you are with them. And then also I pray they would begin based on their joy, not anything happening to them, but what you have done for them, what you want to do in them, and what you can do through them. It is in your name we pray. Amen.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Free.

[B]

Live Free, brother.

[A]

Live free, brother. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you to take a step forward in life, culture, and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review and share the podcast and don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church. Livefree. We'll see you next time.