Top 5 Objections to Christianity DEBUNKED! | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode: Top 5 Objections to Christianity DEBUNKED!
Date: July 21, 2025
Host: Josh Howerton with Carlos Araso, Janet Howerton, Pamela Baltazar
Produced by: Lakepointe Church

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Overview

This episode centers on addressing the five most common objections to the Christian faith, blending robust theological discussion, personal anecdotes, and practical answers. The panel mixes scriptural teaching with contemporary cultural observations—aiming to equip believers for conversations around doubt, faith, and living as followers of Jesus in today's world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Intro and "At the Movies" Themes (00:40–10:30)

• The team shares movie favorites, childhood memories, and fun stories, segueing into their theme—drawing parallels from "Chronicles of Narnia" to childlike faith in Christianity.
• Memorable Moment: Josh’s story of receiving a WWII 101st Airborne patch (04:21).

2. Narnia, C.S. Lewis, and Childlike Faith (10:32–21:39)

• Noteworthy facts about C.S. Lewis, the Narnia series, and Lewis’s correspondence.
• Discussion of Lewis’s belief that animals might talk in the new creation, referencing Genesis and Isaiah as possible scriptural support.
• Notable Quote (Josh, 16:19):
  “C.S. Lewis, and I think I agree with him, almost certainly believed that when Jesus restores the new heavens and the earth, animals will be able to talk.”

3. What is Faith? Theology Deep Dive (21:12–33:09)

• The panel explores Matthew 18:3 ("unless you change and become like little children…") and discusses the theological nuances of faith:

  • Notitia: Knowledge of the facts
  • Assensus: Agreement or ascent to those facts
  • Fiducia: Relational trust/heartfelt commitment

• Notable Quote (Josh, 25:22):
  “You have saving faith when you have knowledge, assent, and trust—or fiducia—which means trust or heartfelt agreement."

• Analogy of a child trusting a father—moving from just knowing something is true to acting on it by jumping.

4. Childish vs. Childlike Faith (30:05–36:47)

• The panel clarifies that childlike faith means inquisitive trust, not gullibility.

• Notable Quote (Pamela, 29:24):
  “There’s no prejudice, there’s no malice…they really, because they trust you, they believe what you’re saying to them.”

• Francis Schaeffer Quote (Josh, 33:20):
  “People who use this argument must never have listened to a little child or been one. My four children gave me a harder time with their endless flow of questions than university people ever have.”

5. Faith and Reason: Are they Opposites? (37:02–44:32)

• Addressing the myth that faith is anti-intellectual.
• Reference to Young Hoon Kim (highest recorded IQ) publicly affirming faith in Jesus.
  “As the world’s highest IQ record holder, I believe that Jesus Christ is God, the way and the truth and the life.” (39:34)
• Trends: Decline in “nones,” increasing public affirmation of Christian faith, and cultural “vibe shift” toward belief.
• Tim Keller Quote (Carlos, 43:17):
  “Christianity, like its founder, does not go from strength to strength to strength. It goes from death to resurrection.”

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Rapid Fire: Top 5 Objections to Christianity

1. “God seems angry and just wants to punish people.” (44:49–49:33)

• Panel addresses God’s justice and mercy.
• Janet (46:19):
  “God’s justice means that he has to deal with evil—otherwise, he wouldn’t be good.”
• God’s anger is always paired with patience and opportunity for repentance (Psalm 103:8; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16).

2. “The Bible is outdated and anti-science.” (49:47–56:46)

• Josh asserts the Bible is a timeless book, not just an ancient book.
• Evolution of scientific consensus over time has actually pointed more toward, not away from, the plausibility of a Creator (Big Bang, DNA language, fine-tuning of the universe).
• Notable Quote (Josh, 53:02):
  “There’s a language underneath who you are…well, where’d that come from? Who wrote that language?”

3. “All religions are just equally valid paths to God.” (56:48–58:38)

• Josh uses examples of harmful religious practices to demonstrate not all “paths” are equally good or true.
• Josh (57:57):
  “Everyone believes they have some standard by which they judge spiritual truths…look for the one where the guy rose from the dead.”

4. “I’m okay with spirituality, but not institutional religion.” (58:42–62:47)

• The church as Christ’s design for believers. No institution is perfect—in any setting.
• Pamela (59:11):
  “…if you come to the faith, you have to belong to the body of Christ. You cannot be on your own.”
• The failures of individual Christians do not negate the truth of Christ or the church (Josh, 62:05).

5. “Christianity is oppressive to women.” (62:47–71:24)

• Biblical teaching valued women far beyond the cultural norms of its time.
• Jesus elevated women in ministry and witness.
• Studies show women who lean into biblical teachings on sex, marriage, and family are statistically happiest.
• Janet (62:55):
  “He [Jesus] elevated women where no one prior had ever done that.”
• Pamela (63:39):
  “He vindicated women, he empowered women, he put them in the right place…equal value, equal love for men and women.”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On faith:
  “There’s a difference between childish faith and childlike faith. Childish faith shuts the brain down…childlike faith ramps the brain up.” (Josh, 31:10)
• On community:
  “Discipleship happens in relationships…You are one relationship away to experience freedom in Christ in community.” (Carlos, 37:02)
• On doubt:
  “You are not going to understand everything about God…If God is the size of the Pacific Ocean and our minds the size of a Coke can, we ought to expect there to be things that don’t fit.” (Josh, 34:07)

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Practical Application and Takeaways

• Faith is not anti-intellectual; ask honest questions and seek understanding.
• Doubt is not the enemy of faith. Honest wrestling can lead to deeper belief.
• Christianity withstands intellectual scrutiny—science, history, and reason can reinforce faith.
• True, saving faith consists of knowledge, agreement, and personal trust in Jesus.
• The most fulfilling Christian life is lived in a community—a church or discipleship group is vital for growth.
• Cultural objections to Christianity often need reframing, empathy, and careful response grounded in truth and real-life data.

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Important Timestamps

• Narnia and Lewis facts: 10:32–19:00
• Definition and explanation of faith: 21:12–29:02
• Childish vs. childlike faith: 30:05–33:09
• Young Hoon Kim/higher IQ & faith: 39:21–44:32
• Objections to Christianity (rapid fire): 44:49–71:24

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Episode Closing

• Encouragement to join a group or “Rooted” discipleship experience: (73:18–74:56)
• Prayer for faith and a closing blessing led by Janet (75:08)

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Shareworthy Quote:
"You are not one podcast, one book, or one sermon away—you are one relationship away to experience freedom in Christ in community." (Carlos, 37:02)

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This episode blends deep, honest, and practical conversations about faith’s role in life, addressing skeptics’ concerns without shying away from hard questions or referencing modern culture. Both newcomers to Christianity and seasoned believers will find wisdom and insight for handling objections—both their own and those of others.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free, and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the word of God, tackling life, culture, and faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ. Thanks for tuning in, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now, let's dive into today's episode.

[B]

Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free podcast. My name is Carlos Araso, and I'm here with Pastor Josh Howerton, Janet Howerton, and Pamela Baltazar.

[A]

Let's talk about that at the Movies that I gave away on last week's podcast. Yeah, he did.

[B]

Week two of @ the Movies. Guys, I can't get over this set. This is, like, legit.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Shout out to the video team and the creative teams.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Am I allowed to also tease, or did you tell them while Jan and I were on vacation what's happening with the other where we were?

[B]

No, I don't think I did. Go ahead. Yeah.

[A]

The part of the reason we're in here is not just because of at the Movies, but because the podcast Live Free has gone so well. Like, it's exceeded every imaginable expectation that we're redoing the podcast set room thingy because this is going to be permanent and we want it to be awesome and have room for podcast guests.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

So when we're back in the old room, it's not going to look like the old room we have. Pretty. It's pretty sweet. Sweet.

[B]

It's gonna be pretty sweet. By faith, if it's ready.

[A]

We're gonna talk about faith today.

[C]

Hey, hey.

[B]

Hey. Man at the movies. Week two. We didn't plan on this Rapid fire favorite movie on a spot of all time. What would you say?

[D]

I already know mine. Oh, you gotta go ahead and prejudice dude. 2005 Keira Knightley version. Not the 1980 something with Colin first. Not that one.

[B]

Okay. And just real quick, out of curiosity, why is this your favorite movie?

[D]

Oh, I love it. Just. Just everything about it. I feel like it was really well done. I love the books, so I think that's important. If you, like, read the book first, you want the movie. I don't know. To have a certain feel, and I like that.

[A]

How many times do you think you've watched that Over, Under?

[D]

I would be embarrassed to say, probably. Oh, definitely. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe under. I don't know.

[A]

It's gonna be right there.

[B]

You have it memorized?

[D]

No, but I have close. I have a lot close.

[B]

That was funny.

[D]

It's been fun because Eliana is kind of into reading all of Jane Austen's books too.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Okay. Usually when somebody asks me that question, my usual go to is the cliche Braveheart or Tombstone. My dark horse for that, though, is Darkest Hour, the Winston Churchill movie with Gary Oldham.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

That was good. I'm a huge World War II Winston Churchill guy. That movie is unbelievable.

[B]

I've never seen it, bro. I went to the museum in El Salvador.

[A]

Is that like, you know? I know. Like America. We're like, yeah, we've. We won World War II. It's like, we're super into it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it. Is it as much of a thing?

[B]

I mean, I took. I took some classes in high school, but. No, really?

[C]

No, we were not part of it, so.

[D]

Right.

[A]

I'm glad you all did that.

[C]

That makes sense for you.

[A]

I mean, it's.

[B]

It's rich history.

[A]

Wait. Oh, can I tell an amazing story? Okay, so Jan and I recently. I'm gonna tell about that gift that guy sent me. Oh, that was Jan and I recently on weeks when I'm not teaching and I'm in town, we visit all of our campuses and we pray with people in the lobbies. We were at our shout out North Dallas campus. We're in the lobby, and I see this guy talking to. He's an adult guy. Super. He's talking to Eliana and the conversation looks really good. We walk up to him and he's talking to Eliana about West Point, which is like the. The greatest military academy in the United States. So I'm like, this is really interesting. Well, this guy goes on to explain. Now, by the way, if you don't know this, I'll just give you a little. Little American World War II history real quick. So, like, arguably the most consequential unit or fighting force for the United States in World War II was the 101st Airborne. So it's like the whole band of brothers movies or miniseries on. It's all around this one fighting unit. It was called the 101st Airborne. And I'm all in. Like, I've read all the books and seen all the movies. Well, this guy explains to me that he graduated. I think as a Battalion commander at our North Dallas campus. He retired as a battalion commander from the 101st Airborne. So I was like, geeking out and he's. Which is a big deal. Like this. That's a big deal. Well, this guy, he sends our family this little gift package. And he sent Eliana a book about the history of West Point. He was trying to recruit Eliana to West Point.

[D]

She's reading it too. She's very into it.

[A]

Literally yesterday at the pool, I look over and she's reading this book about West Point. I was real proud of her. Wow. And then this dude sent me an Original World War II, 101st Airborne screamin Eagles uniform patch, like, worn in combat.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

In that same gift package, I totally geeked out.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Yeah, it's amazing. Like a literal. I was explaining the kids like, hey, a literal war hero wore this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's awesome.

[B]

Hey, man. I took AP U.S. history. And I was a fan. I loved U.S. history. Did you? So you said. What's the name of the movie again?

[A]

Darkest Hour. The Winston Churchill movie. Darkest Hour.

[C]

Mine is Pride and Prejudice.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. No, you can't. You can't.

[C]

Thousand times yes.

[B]

I thought.

[A]

You have bewitched me. Body and soul.

[C]

Body and soul.

[A]

And I know. Serious. I love you. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

That is not the movie that I was expecting you to say it would be your favorite.

[C]

It's just. I love it because it's romantic, but it's not corny. Yeah. And it's not like, you know, like dirty stuff. Like, it's like real romance. Yeah. There's not. So I, I, I really.

[A]

Pamela, do you know what Jana named our dog?

[C]

Yes. Mr. Darcy.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yes. That's hilarious.

[B]

I didn't know that. Connection.

[A]

Favorite movie, man.

[B]

You know this already, Everybody. Wait, you know this already? The all time classic from.

[A]

Oh, Back to the future.

[B]

1985. Back to the Future.

[C]

Really?

[B]

That's it. That's gonna be. It's just hard to beat.

[A]

So did you see that? You saw that before you moved the States, or you see it in El Salvador?

[B]

I saw it in El Salvador as a kid.

[A]

Did you see it in Spanish or English?

[B]

In both. And vhs, by the way.

[A]

So you do know what a vhs.

[B]

So I do know what a VHS is. And yeah, I basically have all three trilogies memorized in English and Spanish. And I collect Back to the Future memorabilia, which is funny thing. My brother and I, we went to the. There's like a Dallas 40 year anniversary for Back to the Future and all the cast Showed up. So I saw them in person.

[A]

Michael J. Fox.

[B]

Michael J. Fox was there. Christopher Lloyd. And it was amazing.

[A]

We were, we vacationed at this place in England where Christopher Lloyd was at the thing with us. And I talked to him.

[B]

What?

[A]

Yes, I said, great Scott. Yes, I talked to him. I said hi, and he said hello.

[D]

I mean, it's one of those things. You just, you leave him alone. It's like they don't want to talk to anybody. They, you know, so you're best friends. We left him alone.

[A]

Me and him, we're close.

[D]

We left him.

[B]

I have a holy jealousy. That's amazing. Well, I saw him from far away. You could get a selfie and a signature and I asked. You just have to pay 400 for that.

[A]

Are you serious?

[B]

Something like that. There's like 200 for the. Some. Something like 200 for the selfie and 200 for the signature and like a three hour line, which I did not do. So I thought I was a fan. There's some real fans in this place. I, I just, you know, I'm interesting.

[A]

He apparently vacations in the countryside of England. We were in this little hotel out in the middle of nowhere in England.

[B]

I love that. That's amazing, man. Well, we had a really good movie this weekend. And that's. That's the one that you teased. Sorry.

[A]

And we keep the. At the movies. Movies tight. Like it's top secret. I totally blew it.

[B]

That's. It's all right. It's all right.

[A]

Can I give you some. Can I give you some little known facts about the Chronicles of Narnia?

[B]

Before you do, I just want to invite people to. To share, like, subscribe, comment. By the way, we love when people comment on YouTube as well. We love when people listen in, but we love it when people comment.

[A]

When people come on YouTube, we read and respond.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah. And by the way, it helps the algorithm. Yes.

[B]

And people, we love to hear about your life groups, which by the.

[A]

We got pictures.

[B]

We got pictures of people telling us about their life group with their show notes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we got a couple here.

[A]

All right, so this is one, I'm sure. So this is one. Some guy sent this to me. These guys meet at a. A breakfast diner. Like, look how many dudes are there? Yeah. Wow. This is what they're doing. There's an incredible story about one Mexican restaurant. This is. It's like, it looks like it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

These guys sent me a picture. But what, what groups are doing is they're listening to the sermon Then they're listening to the Deeper Dive Bible teaching podcast. That's this live free. Then they're showing up. It's just like guys doing this. They're showing up at these diners and coffee shops. This is. That's another one. I got sent this yesterday. People are starting to tag us in pictures on these on Instagram. Please keep doing that. And then it's just like they get in, they talk about what God showed them in the Word through the Bible teaching. They confess sin, talk about what's going on in their life. Like how do I apply the Word? They encourage and pray for each other. And then they get at it. They're doing it before work, which is awesome.

[B]

I love it, man. There's discussion questions in the show notes, Bible verses, whatever we discuss here so that you can take it with your group and go even deeper. So to download those, go to Lakepoint Church show notes or find the link in the description. And today we're going to talk about Narnia. We're going to talk about the. The highest IQ in the world confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

[A]

Really? We will talk about this. He's a guy for his Asian guy. He's Korean.

[B]

Korean, Yeah.

[A]

I don't want to mispronounce his name, but I'm probably going to. I'm not even going to try. How do you say it?

[B]

And I don't speak Korean, but I believe you said Young Hun Kim.

[A]

Yeah, that's. You did better than me.

[B]

Oh, well.

[A]

Highest IQ in the world. We're going to talk about this in a second. He's gu. Like a very outspoken believer. He's talking about this. That's going to be cool. We're going to talk about what faith and faith is not and we're going to answer some objections to belief in Christianity. A lot of people have. It'd be fun.

[B]

This is good episode, man. Tell me about Narnia.

[A]

I'm curious. Let's do some little known facts. Little known facts. So my mom shout out. Her name's Julie, but I call her Mom. Mom read these to me growing up. We've read some of them to our kids. I have very distinct memories of mom finishing book four, the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Reepa Cheep was my favorite character. I have very distinct memories of crying when Reepicheep, quote unquote. He doesn't die. He kind of dies. But he goes to like the afterlife. And I just have. I have good memories. You remember that?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Did I read that to you we first got married.

[D]

Well, we did. I'm trying to think which one we started with, but. Yeah, like on our honeymoon. You. You read.

[A]

We start. I read to her.

[D]

Which I read some of his books. I love. He has great reading voice.

[A]

Thank you. So little known facts about Chronicles and Narnia Number one. It was not planned as a series. CS Lewis planned originally to only write one book and there'd be none. He's gonna want it done, by the way, the first one. Do you know which one? Which one do you think is the first one, Carlos?

[B]

Not the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

[A]

Yes, it is. So here's the deal. He wrote lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe first. Then after he turned it into a series, I think he wrote Magician's Nephew fifth. But he wrote it as a prequel to lie in the Witch and the Wardrobe. But he wrote it fifth.

[D]

Okay. I didn't know.

[A]

So I'm all. I'm like Chronicles and Aria nerds fight about this. I'm all in on. You're supposed to read line the Witch and the Wardrobe first. So that's. That's the first one.

[C]

He wrote the first one. But why?

[B]

Well, the first one written not in the order.

[A]

That's the first one that was written.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

He wrote Magician's Nephew fifth, but he wrote it to come first in the timeline.

[C]

Got it. Got it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. So not planned as a series to turn into a series. When it got popular. Number two, it was inspired by a real wardrobe that I have touched. So I have been to CS Lewis. Did you know this?

[D]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

I have been to C.S. lewis's house in England, and the wardrobe that it's inspired by is right there in his bedroom. By the way. Here's another. This isn't in my notes. Here's another little known fact about C.S. lewis. Right above his bed, hung and still hangs. I'm 99% sure that's correct. A depiction of the Shroud of Turin. Very interesting. Someday we're gonna do a podcast on.

[B]

The Shroud of Turin for the people that don't know what that is.

[A]

Oh, sorry. So the Shroud of Turin is a highly debated piece of cloth that there are at least some very credible reasons to believe in. Is the piece of face cloth Jesus was wearing when he was resurrected. And there's like an actual imprint of the. Supposedly the alleged face of the risen Christ almost like burned into the cloth. And there are a legitimate. Some. It's debatable. Just going to get it out there. There are some Credible, legitimate reasons that people are like, no, that thing's real. Okay.

[B]

That's coming soon in a different pot.

[A]

Bro, if you want. We didn't plan to talk about this. If you want an interesting podcast to listen to after you're done listening to Live Free, Michael Knowles, K N O W L E S. He. He did a podcast with a guy from Dallas who we should get on the show.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

About the Shroud of Turn. It's got like 2 million views. I listened to it one night while I was like, kind of nerding out. And it's legitimately. All right, so anyway, CS List. Go back to this. All right, so fact number three about Chronicles in Arnia. J.R. tolkien, who wrote the Lord of the Rings and was CS Lewis's best buddy that brought him to Faith. Tolkien hated the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. He hated it. He thought that, like, the whole thing of, like. So there's like a Jesus lion and, and. And. And there's Santa Claus is in there. He was just like, ah, this is too easy.

[B]

Too easy.

[D]

Well, I'm glad you didn't listen to him because we love it.

[B]

I will say this, though. Jesus, lion in a Santa Claus. And it's a little. I mean, I can empathize a little bit with.

[D]

It's a good story.

[A]

Sounds a little. You just hear that. You're like, oh, you're like, huh. Interesting fact number four. Turkish delight is awful. Has anybody tasted Turkish delight?

[D]

Because when the last time I was reading it to the kids, I was like, okay, I'm buying some of that. And so I did.

[A]

You're such a good mom.

[D]

And they. They were not fans.

[B]

It's awful. But would. Would British people agree with that?

[A]

I don't know, dude. British people. Listen, I love. If you're British. We love you, man. You're a taste buds. That is not my thing.

[D]

I don't know. I. I like it, but that's fair.

[A]

Baked beans for breakfast.

[D]

Well, that's great.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's very different, though. It's not beans. It's not British baked beans.

[A]

I love how offended Pamela was.

[C]

Like, we eat.

[A]

We eat beans for breakfast. I mean, we like beans.

[C]

Just had beans today for. Not the British style with my gorbitas.

[A]

Carlos, El Salvador beans for breakfast?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Okay. I love how you're like.

[B]

You're like, would you do that too? We do, man. We Latin American people, we like beans.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Yeah. But just to clarify, they're very different than British beans.

[C]

Oh, yeah. They're not so sweet.

[B]

Or you can keep. You keep going.

[A]

Well, Turkish Delight is terrible.

[B]

Okay. What is it?

[A]

Is it.

[B]

I don't even know what it is.

[A]

How would you describe it?

[D]

It's almost gum. Maybe.

[C]

I'm.

[D]

I don't know. It's almost like a gummy, but not a gummy. I don't know. I don't know how to describe it at all.

[A]

I just tasted it years ago in England. It was real bad. And then here's the last one. You know, obviously, Chronicles of Narnia is filled with talking animals. C.S. lewis, and I think I agree with him, almost certainly believed that when Jesus restores the new heavens and the earth, animals will be able to talk.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So here's a. Here's a fun little. He was. C.S. lewis was famous for responding by hand to every letter that was sent to him.

[D]

That's amazing. That had been a lot of letters.

[A]

So what people did is as many as they could find is they found all the people he responded to, and then they compiled his letters into little books that you can still buy. In 1960, a little boy wrote him a letter about his dog that had just died. And I love this. CS Lewis, the senior saint, world renowned theologian and apologist, Oxford professor, took time to write this little boy about his dog that just died. And he wrote to this little boy that animals like dogs, he thought, might join us in heaven. And then this was his quote, perhaps with even greater powers than they have now. And then he. Isn't that awesome? Yeah, it was awesome.

[B]

Wait, so did he say specifically that they might talk or.

[A]

He did not specifically say that. That's what I'm assuming based on how he depicted them in chronicles and Arnia. And then he also. He wrote a book called the Problem of Pain that was about the problem of evil. I read in college. And in the Problem of Pain, he has a whole chapter on animal pain. It's very interesting. I remember reading it. And in that chapter, he also talks about how he thinks that some animals might be resurrected in the new Earth. You might get Boomer back and then.

[B]

And shout out to Mr. Bingley as well.

[D]

Maybe this will give you greater affection for Bingley.

[A]

I'm not a huge fan of Bingley.

[D]

I love him.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

You're gonna see him in eternity.

[A]

I hope not.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

Hey, I know Mr. Bingley.

[B]

That's fair. That's fair.

[A]

If in eternity, he's perfectly potty trained, that'd be great.

[B]

Hey, there you go.

[A]

That'd be greater powers. But anyway, in greater powers. But in in the problem of pain, man. In the problem of pain. He also mentioned, I think, this whole concept of potentially, he. This is. These are guesses.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That animals in the new creation having more powers than they have.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

There's your facts. Wow.

[D]

That is that. I don't know. I'd like to know where he got that from.

[A]

Well, he's guessing. Yeah, he's guessing now. Here. I will. We didn't plan on talking about this. The reason that some theologians legitimately have believed that is because of Genesis 1 and 2. And you have a talking serpent. And. And they're like. You know, they're like, hey, you know, maybe. Okay, maybe, you know.

[C]

So you may hear from Mr. Bingley what he thinks about you.

[A]

Maybe.

[C]

That would be interesting.

[A]

I wonder if he'll have a British accent. Maybe you'll eat beans for breakfast. Yeah. May.

[B]

And, you know, people will ask us. People ask, like, will my pet be in heaven? And, you know, there's a. There's a. You could. You could say that there's a theological case for animals to be. To be in heaven. Well, I can't. I can't remember where exactly, but there's a prophecy. I'm trying. I just try to Google it, but there's a prophecy somewhere. Maybe somebody can help me. In the comments, that says something about the gazelle line with the lion.

[A]

Thanks. In the book of Isaiah, the lion shall lay down with the lamb.

[B]

Okay. So again, there's, like, a. An apocalyptic vision of the future where, like, there's animals involved. And so I guess some people. Yeah.

[A]

So it's totally gonna be animals.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Oh, so it's. It's a done deal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, there you go.

[C]

Yeah. The question. Because Mr. Bingley, with my kids, like, I. I think there's gonna be animals for what we read, but, like, our pets, like, are gonna be there. Like, can they be safe? Do they have a soul to go to heaven?

[A]

Definitely. They definitely can't be saved.

[C]

So we were talking about those and talking about all the possibilities, but I was at the end, we concluded that we. Our pets, could be in heaven.

[B]

Yeah. I just want to know if Mr. Bingley will be there. That's all I want to know.

[C]

Maybe he doesn't make it.

[A]

By the way, we don't believe in purgatory. We're Protestants.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

The Bible. Let's go, man.

[B]

Hey. So there's obviously many themes in Narnia. We could. There's so much there. But one of the themes that you see in this movie is when Lucy Believes in Narnia before anybody else believes in it. And, and so there's a, there's a theme there of childlike faith. And this is from Matthew, chapter 18, verse three. And so I just want to. Let's start there, man.

[A]

What, did you read the verse?

[B]

Yeah, I do not. But you know, I memorized it a lot.

[A]

Matthew 18:3.

[B]

I got it here. Jesus says, truly, I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Big statement. Sounds like it's important. So let's talk about this. What does it mean to, to become like little children or have a childlike faith?

[A]

I'll start and then we can maybe we can add in. So one, I think let's zoom out and just talk about what faith is in general. By the way, this is like arguably the most important discussion a Christian can have. Because we are saved by faith. We are sanctified, which is a big fancy word that means to become holy, to be conformed in the image of Jesus. We're sanctified by faith because the Bible says anything that does not come from faith is sin. I think that's the book of Hebrews. So faith is a really big deal. So I think we need to talk about what it is and then let's get to that specific verse. Let's do a little theology nerd thing here real quick. The Protestant reformers typically have looked in the Bible and said, hey, saving faith. Because we use one word, faith, to refer to what the Bible actually would have. Many, many different categories. We have one word and it's. It encapsulates many different categories, not all of which are saving. Okay, so the Protestant reformers, theology nerd moment. They have always looked in the Bible and talked about saving. Faith has three aspects. The Latin words they would use are noticia, ascensus and fiducia. Spanish is a Latin based language, isn't it? Yeah, noticia, ascensus, fiducia. So noticia, it just means knowledge. So this is just an awareness of facts. Okay. Obviously you have to know something to believe in it. Now obviously we all understand that does not mean that you have belief in that thing. There are tons of non Christian people who completely reject Jesus that know facts about Jesus. So we all know, but you, you gotta have some facts. So noticia number one, number two, a census. I think, by the way, these were originally identified by the early, quote, unquote, early church Father St. Augustine. A census. It means ascent or agreement. I'm aware of those facts and I agree with Those facts. Okay, so you know, I'm aware that Jesus was crucified. I know that Christians claim that that's knowledge. But I agree he was crucified. That's a census, is a scent. But now what we all know is that just those two things, knowledge and ascent. And by the way, this is going to lead to. What does Jesus mean when he says you have to become like a little child to enter the kingdom of heaven? This is going to lead to that it's possible to have knowledge and assent and not be saved. How do we know that? Because literally the James says this. Even the demons believe and they shudder. That's why this was in my daily Bible reading. Literally today, throughout the Gospels, the first people to acknowledge Jesus as Lord are demon possessed people. They said. They say things like, I know who you are. You're the Holy One of God. So they had knowledge, and they even agreed with that knowledge, you're the one of God. But they weren't saved because they still rejected Jesus. Which leads us to the third aspect of saving faith. You have saving faith when you have knowledge. Noticia, assent, a census. And the third one is fiducia, which means trust or heartfelt agreement. Okay. That's what. That specifically is what Jesus is referring to when he says, hey, you have to become like a little child. And what he means is when he says that, he's not talking about gullibility. Like, sometimes people like, oh, you got to be like a little kid. I just believe. I don't ask any questions. That's not what he's talking about. We'll talk about that in a second. There's a difference between childish faith and childlike faith. Okay? What he's talking about is trust or dependence. So that's like Hudson, as my little son going, I know my dad is strong enough to carry me over that thing and he hurls himself in my arms. That's when he practices fiducia. Trust. So that's what Jesus means. So three aspects of saving faith. Knowledge. I know the facts. A census. I agree that the facts are true. But number three is where you're saved. Trust. I'm laying all the weight of my life on the fact that Jesus is good, he's my Lord, and I'm gonna believe him and obey him.

[B]

That's really good. I think, especially in our, in our culture, it seems like the, the emphasis when we use the word faith is, is very much so intellectual. Like, what do you believe? And it becomes at some point, but then if you, you know, to make it practical, even for our people. If you think about it, faith isn't just rational, it's relational. Right. And so you talk about your son when you. What was the third one you said?

[A]

Fiduciary.

[B]

When you trust somebody, when your son trusts his father, there's a relational component to your faith. And so for us, as we talk about having faith in Christ, there's a relational component where he is involved in every aspect of your life. And not just what you do on Sundays or what you do in your. In your. You know, in your. In your time alone with God, but in. In your relationships, in your marriage and with your kids, in your job, what. Everything that you do, there's a. There's an ongoing relationship where Jesus influences every single part of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's part of your faith.

[A]

That's right. This is so important. Let me give one last analogy, because this is, like, it's that important. I want to make sure people get this. So now knowledge, ascent, and trust. All right, so we got a staircase in our house, and Hudson likes to jump off things. So, like, the first time he did this, Hudson's at the top of the stairs. And I yell down to Hudson, hey, buddy, jump to me. And he's like, no way. You know? So I tell him, hey, bud, I can definitely catch you. Now he's heard that fact, so he has knowledge. Dad says he can catch me. Okay. Then there comes a moment. I don't know when it happens, when. When I, like, let's say I ask, hey, buddy, do you believe that? That I can. Do you think I can catch you? He says, yes. Okay, now we have a census. But you can have a little kid that has knowledge and a scent, but he's still not gonna jump. Cause he doesn't. In his heart of hearts, at a relational level, he doesn't trust it. But the moment that Hudson believes it, trusts it. And then he jumps to me, he hurls himself towards me, into my arms. That's the moment that he's exercising fiducia, faith, trust. Okay? It's the same thing for a Christian. When. When somebody becomes a Christian, when you first hear the facts of Jesus, was the son of God, died for your sins, raised on the third day. You got that? When you're like, yep, I believe those things are true. That's when you have ascent. But that doesn't mean you're saved. It's the moment that you're like, know what, man? I'm going to bend my knee to the lordship of Jesus. I'm Going to give my life to him, his way, not my way. I believe somehow in some way, the cross counted for me. And you hurl yourself at him and, you know, you start obeying him. That's saving. Faith has taken place. There it is. Knowledge of sin, trust, thoughts, faith. What do y' all think?

[C]

Well, that's very deep. And I was going to say something more like, practical, but, like, as a mom, like, I think about my kids and how they trust us and how they believe everything we say. And they're not gullible. They have a bunch of questions and they would like, why and why do you say that? I mean, it's not that there's certain, like, how do you say. Naivety.

[A]

Yes, naive.

[C]

Like, in the sense of, like, there's no prejudice. There's no, like, malice. There's no, like, you know, they really, because they trust you, they believe what you're saying to them. And they're not. They don't like, all the cynicism or, like, prejudices or like, all of this, like, you know, cloud their judgment because they're so innocent. So I think to your point, when you, to Jesus, you have to let go of your cynicism, of your, like, maybe, you know, prejudice you have against Christians or whatever. And in that point of surrender, when you become like a child and say, I'm going to trust in God with my life, there has to come to that point. I believe.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

That's exactly right.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, it's interesting because I think when it comes to this conversation, you know, like, nobody thinks today I got to be childlike. Like, just. That's not. Nobody thinks that unless you listen to Jesus and say, man, Jesus helped me be childlike. But a lot of people actually act childish. That's actually a thing for some people. And so where's the difference? Like, how do you. How do you know if somebody is being childish versus childlike?

[A]

Yeah, man. So I think there's. So I'd say there's two things here. Number one, that's really important because the Bible consistently commands us to mature in the faith, to grow up into the full. Fullness of maturity is what the Bible says. So we don't want to be childish. Okay. So I think what I would say is the difference between childish faith and childlike faith is actually Pamela, I think, nailed this. Christians, the hammer is so like the Hispanic hammer. That's the.

[B]

Literally. Nailed it.

[A]

Nailed it. Oh, there it is. Okay.

[D]

Oh, man.

[B]

Too much.

[A]

Yeah. There are more inquisitive, curious, maybe more intellectual Christians that they'll hear a verse like that, and it actually really bothers them, like, man. So you're actually just asking me to, like, just believe everything and never ask any questions? No, I'm not. That's childish faith. That's childish, okay? So here's some distinctions. A childish faith shuts the brain down. Don't ask any questions, just believe, okay? A childlike faith ramps the brain up, depend on him, and now seek some understanding, okay? A childish faith says, I believe, so I just. I'll never ask any questions, okay? A childlike faith says, I believe, so I'm going to go find some answers, okay? The motto of a childish faith is kind of like the Santa Clauses. Just believe. You know, it's the movie the Santa Claus.

[B]

Just believe.

[A]

The motto of a childlike faith. This is another early church. Father St. Anselm, he described it as faith seeking understanding. That's actually a really important phrase, faith seeking understanding. So when I, as a Christian, I see something in the world or, you know, and we'll talk about this later in science or whatever you want to say, and it's like, huh, I don't know how to square that with. With my faith, okay? A childish faith goes, well, I'm not supposed to ask any questions and just da, da, da, da, da. A childlike faith goes, no, I trust my father and I know that the word is true. And now I'm gonna go find out how. And even if I might not understand everything, I'm still gonna trust my heavenly.

[B]

Father or honestly, even not going too far. Like, when you read the Bible and you read something, like, you're like, huh? Like, what do you do with this verse? Or what do you do with this text? Or what did Paul mean by that thing? I think there's a. There's a sense in which man, you have a, you know, responsibility to say, lord, let me. Let me seek to understand this versus. I think what a lot of people will do today, they'll just kind of brush it off and be like, well, I don't. I don't know, but whatever. I don't really, really care. Now you. We're called to seek understanding so that we can. Because ultimately, it's not just about receiving answers, about knowing who God is.

[A]

That's right. Carlos, this is Pamela. This nails exactly you said earlier. So one of my favorite. I went through a period right after. It was like the second year of our marriage or. Yeah.

[D]

I mean, it was like year one or two.

[A]

Yeah. Like. Like dark night of the soul. Like deep doubt like. And it ended up being one of the best things that happened to me on the back end. We can talk about that here for podcasts. But it was like, I mean it's big enough. The old Janice still remembering exactly when it was. That was a big deal. I read this book called the Francis Schaeffer Trilogy. Strongly recommend it if you're like a. More I'm not a super intellectual guy, but I was reading stuff like that a lot still every now and then. Still do. Francis Schaefer was like a Christian philosopher, artist, cultural analyst in the seventies during the Jesus movement. Anyway, so here's what I'm going to read this quote because it's so good. He said, but someone will say, didn't Jesus say that to be saved you have to be as a little child? And he was talking about how it's good for Christians to ask questions. And then he says, of course he did. But did you ever see a little child who didn't ask questions? People who use this argument must never have listened to a little child or been one. My four children, this is him, gave me a harder time with their endless flow of questions than university people ever have. Wow. What Jesus was talking about is that the little child, when he has an adequate answer, he accepts the answer. He has the simplicity of not having a built in grid whereby regardless of the validity of the answer, he continues to reject it. Wow. So that's fantastic. That's fantastic. And I will I'll add a quick caveat to something Schaefer said. You are not going to understand everything about God. So I say this all the time, is that if God is the size of the Pacific Ocean and our minds are the size of a Coke can, we ought to expect there to be some things that don't fit. So we should expect that John Calvin we're doing a lot of dead church fathers this this week at the end of John Calvin's life. And John Calvin was absolutely brilliant man and theologian. Somebody asked him what his favorite Bible verse was and it was a verse from Deuteronomy. The secret things belong to the Lord. He's like, dude, I've been writing about Jesus for a long time. Here's what I figured out. I'm not going to understand it all.

[B]

I could be wrong, but somebody can fact check me. If this is wrong, that's fine. But I believe he John Calvin, when I don't think he ever preached on the book of Revelation. And when people asked him why, he said, I don't understand it.

[A]

I love it so much, dude, it's John Calvin.

[D]

That's good.

[A]

I actually love it.

[B]

So, yeah, feel free to fact check it if anybody's like, ah, is that true? Check it out.

[A]

I do know. I'll give you one more. Let's see. We're doing a bunch of theologians. Probably the greatest theologian of our lifetime. I think a lot of people would agree his name, he's gone with the Lord. Now a few years ago, J.I. packer, a lot of people would go like, that's the greatest theologian of our generation. It was hilarious. One time I was preaching on, there's a verse in Hebrews that says like, hey, let us move on from the elementary things of faith, that Christ died for our sins and stuff. And I was like, I don't know what that means. That didn't make any sense to me. And, and so I went and googled it and, and to see what J.I. packer said about it. And somebody asked him about it in an interview and the greatest theologian of our generation said, I got no idea what that means. It was like genuinely very comforting. This 90 year old towering theologian was like, I got no idea what that means, man.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And very accurate too. You know, it's been said, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so smart people saying, I don't know.

[D]

I was gonna say there's wisdom in saying I don't know rather than giving an answer, you really don't understand.

[B]

Well, hey guys. One of the reasons we are intentional in creating this kind of podcast episodes is because we believe that discipleship happens in relationships. Having said that, what we want to do through the live free podcast is model what it looks like to be in a discipleship group where we come together and open up the word of God and honestly just grow together as followers of Jesus to live free in Christ. And so for this reason, we love that you're tuning in, but honestly, we don't just want you to be a passive listener. We want you to be an active participant. And so if you have not yet joined the group, whether in person or online, I want to challenge you to test drive one. And so to do that, just text the word group to 20411 or go to Lakepoint Church groups because listen, you're not one podcast away, one habit away, one decision away, one book away, one sermon away. Listen, you are one relationship away to experience freedom in Christ in community. And now let's get back to the podcast. So we're talking about faith. Some people would Say, well, I thought faith. You're talking about faith seeking understanding. I thought faith and reason were opposites, you know, especially today when it comes to. We'll talk about this person. Korean iq, highest IQ in the world. A lot of people think that if you're, if you have faith that you're not supposed to think things through reasonably. Or people that are really smart, they, they're too smart to have faith. I've heard other people say, Bill Maher, he, he meets with smart people and then he'll say things like, I don't understand how you can be so smart and still believe the Bible, like things like that. So. And C.S. lewis actually would be somebody that he used to have. He used to be an atheist.

[A]

Is that right? That's exactly right, yeah. Until I think he was 31.

[B]

And, and so today, many reject Christianity based on little false ideas like that. Ah, faith and reason, they're not, you know, compatible. Let's, I want to rapid fire some of the, the most common objections today that people intellectually have when it comes to faith. And then we can just kind of, because we have faith, because we have a trust in Jesus, we can, we can debunk them.

[A]

Hey, you want to go ahead and let's, let's, let's show that thing from the Korean guy.

[B]

Yeah, let's do that.

[A]

All right, so this is what we're talking about. And then we'll get to this in a second. So there it is. So this, this went like mega viral. And Carlos, pronounce his name again.

[B]

Yeah, Young Hoon Kim.

[A]

Okay, so if you got it wrong, then you're in trouble.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Does that feel right? That's great. I don't know. All right, good. So this is what he just tweeted as the I love, like how his tweet is hysterical. As the world's highest IQ record holder, I believe that Jesus Christ is God, the way and the truth and the life.

[B]

You're right. I love the way he introduces himself. If people were wondering who I am.

[A]

This is who I am now, by the way. That's, that's true. We look, we look this to fact check. Fact check. This, this guy actually is tested at a 2. His IQ tested 276. Let me put that in perspective. Albert Einstein's reported IQ was 180 and Elon Musk is 165. So it's got tested 276. That was retweeted about 50,000 people and 22 mil. Are they still saying retweeted it's not Twitter anymore.

[B]

Yeah, I think, I think retweet it re X people.

[A]

It was viewed by 22 million people.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

And then he's been on like a terror. Like he's. I almost played some of his stuff, but he's been talking about why he's a Bible believing Christian. There's like a three minute video for like that he posted about here's exactly why I believe that Jesus is the son of God. Yeah, it's really interesting, man.

[B]

Yeah, it is, it is. It seems to me like, and you know, there's a reason why he kind of went viral too. Like, just feels like a lot more people today with bigger platforms are kind of coming out for like a better term. Just saying, hey, I actually, this whole Christianity thing, there's something here, it's vibe shift. It makes me think of like, if you think of, if you zoom, like if you go back 25 years, some of some people would say that there's been like movements along all these years and so, and these movements kind of build on each other. And so if you think about it, in the, in the 2000s, the new atheist movement was like a thing huge. Like everybody, it was cool now to.

[A]

Be Hitchens and Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. Like when I was in college, that was like the thing. And it's totally dead now.

[B]

It's funny because, you know, at the time people were asking, this was after 9, 11 by the way. So I think this kind of sparked a little something. People were asking like, hey, does God really exist? Is religion actually good for people? And science versus religion kind of, you know, and so that happened. But then after that came in the 2010s, the progressive Christianity movement started to gain traction. And so basically this is, this is Christians going like, well, you know, did God really say, is the Bible really inerrant?

[A]

You know, deconstruction movement?

[B]

So, so that happened in critical theory 2010 is progressive Christianity. This is like Rob Bells, Brian McLaren, all these people. And then in 2020, so 10ish years later, this is where like the deconstruction exvangelical movement was a thing. Some people believe that it was a follow up of the progressive Christianity. And this is again, this is like, this is not Christians anymore saying, yeah, well, let's ask some questions. This is more Christians saying, I'm not a Christian anymore. Christianity is toxic, church is bad. And it's interesting because even with Gen Z coming up in this, in this season, Gen Z is statistically the least religious generation in US History. So you look at the statistics right now, at least church attenders, more nuns, least belief in God. But now we're seeing, like, the highest IQ saying this. Like, the Joe Rogans are saying that, like, people. There's like a. There seems to be, like, something starting. And it reminds me of this quote Tim Keller said. Christianity, like its founder, does not go from strength to strength to strength. It goes from death to resurrection. It just. It just seems like that's kind of what we're at the beginning of seeing at this moment.

[A]

Oh, man, I'm having a brain lapse. What was the British guy? He wrote orthodoxy. Oh, G.K. chesterton.

[B]

Uhhuh.

[A]

G.K. chesterton has this insane quote where he's like, at least five times in history, people have believed that Christianity had gone to the dogs, but it was always the dog that died, and it did. And it's like. And I think he followed it up. The next sentence was for, we worship a Lord who went into the grave and came out again. Or something like that. Like, it's just. But that first sentence is, at least five times in history, people have thought that Christianity had gone to the dogs, but it was always the dog that died. That's fire. So here's my theory on this. So, first of all, it is. There's a. I'm sure you've seen it for the first time, I think, in like, 60 years. The number of nuns, people who don't claim any religious affiliation, has declined in the last two years. And for the first time, like the last 60 years, the number of people who are claiming faith in Christ is going up as a percentage. So vibe shift.

[B]

Well, tide is turning.

[A]

The tide is turning. That's my favorite thing right now.

[B]

I love that. Well, because the tide is turning. Let's help. Let's, by the grace of God, help some people that maybe might have some intellectual obstacles, you know? Well, maybe, but. But there's still this one thing they might say. I'm still wrestling with this. You want to rapid fire some of these objections and clarify something?

[A]

Let's do it, man. You guys ready?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You got to help.

[B]

Ready?

[D]

Okay.

[A]

You guys got to help us. Yeah.

[B]

All right, Jenna. Somebody would say, hey, Jenna, I just. Maybe I think I might be into Christianity, but I'm still just. God seems angry, and he just wants to punish people. That's what I hear. The Bible says that. Help me with this.

[D]

Yeah. I think you kind of need to wrestle with the fact that, you know, God is. He's holy and he's Just, he's also loving and he's merciful. So God, you know, his justice, it means that he has to deal with evil. Right? And there is a lot of evil in the world, otherwise he wouldn't be good. So we also, we need to evaluate things in light of what does the word say. And so Psalm 103:8 says, the Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. 2nd Peter 3:9. God's patient. He's not wishing that any should perish. He doesn't want that for you. He wants good goodness with you. He wants you to be with him. But he wants all to reach repentance. And then like John 3:16, I know we hear this a lot, but it's so, so important for God so loved the world, he gave his only son that who will not perish but have eternal life. So I think you have to settle the fact that God's love for you, it was settled on the cross. He wants you to come to repentance. His wrath was settled there. His anger was settled there. And so for all who come to trust him, he is waiting for you with open arms. And so that doesn't sound like an angry God to me.

[C]

If God was only an angry guy that just wants to punish people, the question would be why hasn't he done it yet? We would all be dead by now. Like there has be to. He has to love us. So he, you know, there has to be a love component for that. If not, we would all be dead by now.

[B]

You know why he hasn't? Because what Jenna said and you quoted Psalms, this is actually the most quoted Bible verse in the Bible, by the Bible. So this is Exodus 34. 6. The reason he hasn't is because Exodus 34:6 says God is slow to anger and he is rich in mercy. And so the most quoted Bible verse in the Bible, by the Bible is the fact that of God, who God is, he is slow to anger and rich in mercy.

[A]

Yeah, let me, let me say a couple things on that because this is, this is a big one. So first of all, when somebody says, oh man, God, God's just angry and he just wants to punish people. You know, one, I just want to point out, you would not want to worship a God that did not punish evil. Like, I'll give. And I'm going to be intentionally vague because sometimes evil is gross. The wickedness is just too much. Like I read a news story this week is going viral about two dudes in Britain, that. And by the way, you know, it was a, it was a same sex couple that adopted a kid and then essayed the kid until, you know, the kid died. Well, this like literally viral. What everyone is saying is death penalty, death penalty, death penalty, death penalty. And guess what? They're right. Like if a, if a judge heard that case and at the end of the case was like, you know what man? Forgiveness, you're good man. Like no one would say what a wonderful judge, like there is some type of evil, I don't care who you are, that when you hear it, something inside of you goes that deserves wrath. And if someone won't pour out wrath on that, then actually that God would not be worth worshiping. So what I want to point out is, and let me just gently say this man, is that, is that people are usually fine with sinners being punished until it's them. And it's that possibility. So we really need to wrestle with is, hey, all of us agree that wrath on some sins is a good thing. What we need to figure out is like, okay, well you know, where's the line? That's what you're really wrestling with there. So what I last thing I'd say on this, it was phrased God is angry and just wants to punish people. I only have a problem with one word in that sentence and it's the word just. It's simply not true that God just wants to punish people. You're like, oh, God sends people to hell. Well, in one sense what I want to say is, oh, actually that's not my God. My God did everything in his power to keep you from going to hell. My God loved you so much that he came and died for you that he literally climbed up on a cross and said, if you're going to go to hell, you're going to have to step over my dead body to get there. So I just think you need to rephrase it.

[D]

And the fact going back to second Peter three, nine, like, like he, he's waiting. He could, I mean Jesus could come back now and he, he wants more to come to him. So he wants all to come to reach repentance.

[B]

That's great. Here's another one. The Bible is outdated. It's a man. This is a book written a long time ago and it's actually anti science as well because you know, talking snakes and all kind of not, not what we know.

[A]

So you know, it's a little phrase you like to say, you make, you make a Carlos, you make a good life. Like Cynical, progressive, Christian apostate. Is that what I believe?

[B]

I'm obviously echoing what people are out there.

[A]

So what we like to say at Lake Point, and this is not original to me, is that the Bible's not an old book, it's a timeless book. And so it's always timely. So what I would say is, I would gently say, actually what's outdated is the idea that the Bible is anti science. That has become an outdated idea. So will you guys toss up that Wall Street Journal article real quick? This went viral a few years ago. Wall Street Journal. Science increasingly makes the case for God. Subtitle the odds of life existing on another planet grow ever longer. Intelligent design, anyone? This went like mega viral. And here's what people. This is really interesting because this has changed in our lifetimes. When I was in middle school in the 90s, in the late 1900s, that's, that's kind of like what people thought. It's like, oh, man. Like science and the Bible are at odds and you gotta choose. Okay. And honestly, as, as some of scientific consensus has progressed, the opposite is now happening. Where instead of this whole like God of the gaps. Oh, just where you can't explain how it happened, you just kind of insert God in the gap. Now it's the opposite, where it's actually scientific discovery. Architecture are pushing people to go, well, that seems like that implies the existence of something. I'm going to give a couple quick examples and then let's move on. And I get bogged down here. Okay, number one, in the early 90s, the scientific consensus was that the universe was eternal, matter had always existed. Which obviously was at odds with the belief that in the beginning, God created the heavens, the Earth. Then in, I think it was like the late 90s, early 2000s, I think it was physicists, they just figured out like, oh, that's, that's like not a thing. And now the scientific consensus is big Bang. Hey, at some point this whole thing exploded into existence. Yeah, well, okay, so then like, yeah, you gotta go, well, where'd that come from?

[B]

Yeah, that's a big bang. We say big.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. You say big demand, we say big God. That's right. So that's number one. Number one. Okay. Number two, back when Darwin did the whole Origin of Species and everything, you know, just he. Dude, back then they literally thought that like, cells were just like globs. Okay, well then like we get in, discover a DNA in the double helix and oops, here's what we just figured out is that like Literally underneath all of organic existence is a literal, sophisticated language called DNA. Like, there's a language. Just stop and think. There's a language underneath who you are and every organic being. Okay, okay, well, where'd that come from?

[B]

Who wrote that?

[A]

Who wrote that language? Okay, the big one is fine tuning. I didn't have time to pull quotes. The argument for the existence of God that shakes Christopher Hitchens, famous atheist, he's got an unbelievable quote where like, actually it was on video where he literally, people think Christians are the only ones who doubt, bro. Atheists doubt. And there's this haunting moment where Hitchens is in this limo, I think he's in a limo, and he's literally going like, dude, that fine tuning thing keeps me up at night. And if you don't know what that is, here's the quick summary of the argument from fine tuning. So all the universe's fundamental, the constants of physics, like gravitational force and you know, the, the, you know, the, the force of proton bonds and magnetic magnetism, all this stuff, the universe's constants, they are exquisitely balanced, like perfectly fine tuned so that any of them was even the slightest bit different. Life would be totally impossible and the universe would be completely sterile. Like, if everything was not exactly to the millionth of a little, not, you know, turn of a dial like it was. So the example is it'd be the chance of hitting a cosmic bullseye from a trillion light years away. That's how fine tuned the thing is. So obviously that leads people to go, well, it sure seems like somebody dialed this thing in and made it so that it could sustain life. And then the last one, I'll just toss this up here. I love this. Throw up that atheist logic meme. So it's like this crazy sandcastle. So this is what's hilarious. This, this was in an atheist Reddit thread called our Reddit slash facepalm. And in the atheist Reddit thread, this, this dude that was an atheist tossed this in here and he was like, can somebody help me debunk this? I know it's wrong, I just don't know how. And it's this amazing sandcastle. Then it says atheist logic. This sandcastle came up by chance after millions of years of erosion. And it's like, this atheist is literally like, help me figure this out, because I don't. But the other argument is. And then, oh, throw up the picture of the cell. That's a picture of the inside of one cell in your body. Like, bro, that's more complex. It looks like A city. It looks like a human city that somebody built. That's one cell in your body. So it's just the complexity of creation. Design implies designer. So anyway, this is a really long bogged down answer to the Bible is outdated and anti science. And I would say, actually, man, what's outdated is the idea that the Bible is anti science. It's that thing. Science increasingly makes the case for God and that's what's leading to some of this vibe shift. Wow.

[C]

It's always funny to me, like, you know, when somebody comes up with a scientific discovery, like, okay, this scientific study discovered that happy people are healthier, whatever. Yeah, the Bible already told us that.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[C]

Or like emotional intelligence. Like it's people that are capable to self restraint. Yeah. God already spoke on, you know, self control. Like, you know, all these things, they come up like big discovery discoveries or big advances. Yeah, God already spoke to that. So that proves that just how timeless like the Bible is.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

What about the people will say to. I don't. Oh, Jesus is just, well, one, one belief. I'm glad it works for you. But that's just one of many paths to God.

[A]

Yeah. What I always. Here's, here's what I do in airplane conversations, like, because that's a, that's a common one, man. I just, I think all religions are passed to God. My response to that is always to say, hey, man, really gently. You don't believe that. So we're in Texas. When we were growing up, Jim Jones started a religion over in Waco. And that little religion for Jim Jones, part of it was like, you know, everybody, all the women being willing to sleep with Jim Jones and you know, you just really sick and twisted stuff, you know, for enlightenment and that kind of thing. Thing. I'm always like, what I'll usually do is I'll describe some like, really sick and twisted religion. Like, hey, man. So like the Mayans, like would take babies and carve their hearts out of them and then in front of everybody and then cheer it on with like a screaming baby having its heart ripped out while it's alive and then sacrifice that to their quote, unquote God. And that was like part of how they achieved, you know, quote unquote, salvation for their civilization. Do you think that that's an equally valid path to God? Like, literally nobody believes that. So we're all. I think what I'm really pointing out is like, dude, everyone believes they have some standard by which they judge spiritual truths or claims that are True and not true. You have that. Everybody has that. The question is, how do we know what's the right standard? And what I would say is look for the one where the guy rose from the dead. And there's only one of those.

[B]

There's only one. Here's one. Because we gotta keep going.

[A]

I know, I'm bogging.

[B]

No, you're good, you're good. No, here's. Honestly, this is probably one of the biggest one today in like, you know, pop younger culture, man. I'm okay with religion or spirituality. I just don't trust institutionalized religion.

[A]

You guys want it or you want.

[B]

Like, I'm okay with the Bible. Jesus is cool.

[A]

I'm dominating here.

[B]

I'm just. I just don't like institutionalized religion because it's all about like, you know, power and scandals and.

[C]

Yeah, well, I can see how people can be aseptic about it because there has been terrible things happening in churches. But like, Jesus spoke about the church. He said he founded it, he is going to build it up, he's going to come back. He spoke about, about the church, a body of believers. He didn't talk about individuals only. So, like, I think it's a false belief that you don't have to belong to a church because if you come to the faith, you have to belong to the body of Christ. So you cannot be on your own. Jesus spoke about it. I don't see where the confusion is.

[B]

So, yeah, yeah, to that, I mean, I would just say man at the center of Christianity is a man dying for people's sin and saying, father, forgive them, for they don't know what they do. So anything that when somebody sees a church or something online and it contradicts whatever, you know, that man on the cross, there's something off there. And again, Christians are not perfect. We are by definition broken and we follow somebody who is. And then to your point, Christianity, the church, you cannot be a Christian without being a part of a body of believers. And in the Bible, Jesus actually calls out hypocrisy. So anytime you see something that you're like, ah, that's probably off. Yeah, Jesus calls out hypocrisy. In the Old Testament, the prophets called out hypocrisy as well. Against like, hey, Israel, like, that's not consistent of you, you know, and so the Bible actually confronts that hypocrisy and that brokenness in our. More than probably the Internet does. And so again, if, if you're like, well, you know, I just don't. At the end of the day. Church is made by people. People are broken. And come be, come join this room.

[D]

The failures of people. It doesn't disprove everything Christ said. And so I think keeping that in mind.

[A]

Yeah, you know what? Here's what will happen. First of all, when somebody says that, usually I always want to be like, hey, dude, do you have a story? Like, I bet you've been impacted by that, haven't you? Because a lot of times somebody does, which you're really not dealing with an intellectual problem. You're dealing with an emotional pain. So it's like, you know, what I've found is connect before you. Correct. That's a little pastoral thing. So usually what I want to do is tell me about a time where you've seen that, and that way they get a chance to, hey, let me get that out and get the emotion out. And you got to get the emotion out of the way before you can deal with the logic of the thing. Then, dude, let's do. Let's talk about the logic of the thing. Hey, I want to acknowledge you are right. In every institution, people usually talk about churches. I would just say, hey, man, let's just zoom out real quick. There is no institution in the entire world that has not had terrible things done in it, through it, and in its name. So the problem is not an institution issue. The problem is a sin issue that sinful people make up and lead institutions at times. That kind of thing. I always want to point out a little phrase I'll say is the abuse of a thing does not negate the use of a thing. Just because somebody did a bad thing while they were part of this thing, this institution, that doesn't negate the entire deal. And then I also just gently want to say, man, if you are that against institutions, I'm sure you don't eat at restaurants, you don't go to doctors, you don't cheer for NFL or college teams, and you would never get a college degree degree, because all of those, you're dealing with institutions. You know what I want to point out is what you really hate is not institutions or organization. That's not what you really hate. What you really hate, I'm hearing from you, is you hate things like abuse, deception, exploitation. Well, guess what? Jesus hates those things, too.

[B]

That's good. Last one. Christianity is oppressive to women.

[A]

I feel like one of you guys.

[C]

Just, I am a woman. I don't feel like that.

[D]

I, I agree. I mean, because we really, when we at Jesus and his ministry, he really, he elevated women where no one prior had ever done that. And so he spoke to them, he taught them in all in public for everyone else to see. They were first to witness his resurrection. And they were considered like valid testimonies. You know, people believed them and Jesus honored them. And you know, like Christianity, like, it teaches like men and women are equal. And so that's something very different from other world religions. And so. So yeah, Jesus just, he did elevate women in a way that, you know, others prior never did.

[C]

Yeah, I was going to say that, like, it's actually liberating. Is vindicating. Is that the right word? Like, he vindicated women, he empowered women. He put them in the right place. Like I said, just. I mean, not only Jesus, but you can see that since God, the creation, like the equal value, the equal love for men and women. So, like, I just don't see it.

[D]

I. I agree.

[A]

Yeah. So there's. Man, there's a few things I would say here. So first of all, what's funny is the argument for Christianity in the Roman Empire was the exact opposite of this. The reason that an enormous number of people flock to Christianity because was because they saw the exact opposite. Dude, these people, they care for and value women unlike anybody else. Now here in a second, I'm going to talk about what makes this unique in our culture. Because our culture wants to erase any gender distinctions and any acknowledgement of a gender distinction in our culture, people automatically label, as you're saying, that they're different in value, and that that's not true. So the Bible talks about equal in value, different in function, and the people get hung up on that. We'll talk about that here in a second. So I just want to point this out. So in the Roman Empire, Jana alluded to this, women were literally legally property of their husbands, men. Now remember that when I read the verse I'm going to read here in a second. Obviously, men were not property of their wives, but women were legal property of their husbands. Men could divorce women for infidelity. They could be charged with crimes, actually. But women could not divorce men for their infidelity. It was just assumed, like dudes in the Roman Empire had mistresses. Okay, now remember, that's the culture that Paul is writing into when he writes this in First Corinthians 7. Okay, now concerning the matters about what you wrote, it is good for a man. Now this is going to talk about sex, but that's just what Paul's doing. 1 Corinthians 7, we're big boys and girls. This is the Bible. It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman. So he's answering an objection the Corinthians were giving him. Let's go to verse two. Actually, we're going to go to verse three. For the husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights and likewise the wife to her husband. Now listen to this. Remember when Paul's writing this, women were the property of their husbands. Men were not obviously the property of their wives. But Paul says this, for the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And all the Roman men would have been like, yes, we've always believed that. And then Paul says this. But likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. And everybody would have been like, are you crazy? What? We've never heard anything like this before. And then he goes on and talks about all this stuff, stuff. And it was just like nobody had ever heard that a husband and a wife should be valued equally in their relationship to each other. I'll point out a couple other things here. Since the 1970s in America, we've been in what people called the sexual revolution. Church historians have pointed out this is the second sexual revolution in history. There was a sexual revolution in the first century that the Christians led. So this is. I don't want to get too bogged down here, but this is really interesting. The Christian sexual revolution. In the first century, both sexual revolutions were trying to deal with the fact that there were unequal weights and measures, a double standard between men, men's sexualities, and women's sexualities. So both sexual revolutions were trying to deal with that fact. Like, men get applauded when they're sexually promiscuous and women get shamed. They were kind of trying to deal with that thing. Women are supposed to be chased, and men are supposed to be like, you know, out there. But the two sexual revolutions tried to solve the problem in exact opposite ways. The Christians came along and said, you know, we need to do. Jesus restricts the men just like the women have been restricted. No sex outside of marriage. You belong to her. You do not belong to any other woman. So he. The Christians restricted the men like the women. The 21st century sexual revolution started in the 1970s, did the exact opposite. And they were like, we're going to quote, unquote, liberate the women so that they can be as sexually promiscuous as the men. They tried to solve the unequality in the opposite way. And, oh, by the way, it's been absolutely devastating. Guess who for? Women.

[B]

Women. Yeah.

[A]

So will you guys toss those? You can. There's like three graphs here. I just want to toss all these up. We can do them one by one. We'll do this really fast. Like, literally every study shows the same thing. Guess, guess. Which women are the happiest women in America? It's the ones who obey the Bible's teaching on sex, marriage, gender. So here's what I'm trying to show is when somebody says, man, Christianity is oppressive to women. Well, actually, what the studies show is that when women lean into God's design, that they're happier. Okay, so you're going to see this. Here's one study. Married moms are more likely to report high happiness levels. This is like the exact opposite of what you read in, like, every New York Times article. But you can just see it right there. Who are the. Look at the very top married women with kids. The highest percentage, percentage of them self identify as very happy, and the lowest percentage of them identify as not too happy. Go to another one. You can go to whichever one you want. You see the exact same thing right here. Different study. Women's happiness by marital status in children. And there it is. You can just see it right there. Stay there for a second. Second. Stay there for a second. Make it. Make. Yeah. Can you. There you go. Yeah. But married women with children, you can see it's the second bar from the left. Those are the happiest women in America. 39.5% going very happy. And then the smallest percentage of that category are like, ah, not too happy. Only 12 points. 12.9%. And then you can go to one other one and you'll just see it right here. Married mothers are the happiest. You see it again. It's right there. But you're going to see the same thing. What I should have done is I've got some graphs that show as far as disobedience to the Bible's sexual ethic, it's the exact opposite. It's like, man, it's the women who are doing this sexual revolution. Just hook up, shack up, breakup. Those are the women that are the least happy. So anyway, all this to say. I'm talking way too long. All this to say, man, you're telling me that Christianity is oppressive to women. But what all the studies show is that when women lean into the ethics that are in that book, that they're the happiest ones.

[B]

That's good.

[C]

And I know this is in the context of God's design towards sex and toward family and the women's role in a family. But that's not saying that for women that are listening that for some reason haven't been able to have children or haven't been able to get married. I've just, you know, the disclaimer is that Jesus and God just gave value to women and, you know, vindicated them. But we're talking about the design of the women's role in like a family and all of that.

[A]

Just to clarify that that's really important.

[D]

That's good.

[A]

Yeah. Obviously for any listeners, if you were like, I can't believe he's saying that. Like, hey, Jan and I literally. Infertility. And you know, it's like, we get it. We totally get it. What I'm pointing out is kind of the narrative of this is like the New York Times kind of like the Sex and the City narrative. Like, oh, you know how you're gonna be really happy as a woman, hate men, stay single, travel, hate kids, do the girl boss thing. Definitely never, like, you know, you read a Bible verse about wives submitting to husbands, Lose your mind. Like, I'm just pointing out that narrative is like the exact opposite of what that data says produces happiness.

[B]

Do some work.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah, just point that out. But definitely want to go over that with a verbal highlighter. What Pamela just said is very important. And truth.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, we're talking about faith today and I love that because honestly, I could say for me, the way you grow your faith, the way you solidify your faith, the way you build each other up is doing. Is doing this. Basically what we're doing right now. Again, the reason that we are here, actually, it's not just because one, yes, we enjoy hanging out with each other for sure, but we also just want to model what it looks like for faith to grow in community. We actually have. Have rooted coming up.

[A]

Dude, this is a big deal.

[B]

We're launching this. You want to tell us about it?

[A]

Yeah, man. Here in a few weeks you'll hear about. Hear about More Rooted is like it's going to become like the discipleship mechanism for Lake Point 10 week discipleship experience. I'll be honest, man, it's a high bar. It's like, hey man, I want to be a church. It's like, hey, man, we're going to call you to something that is actually following Jesus and is actually going to change your life and family. Yes. So, yeah, Rooted. Coming up. Up. We've got, I think over a thousand lay pointers that Went through it early to become leaders. It's going to be awesome. Launches here in about four to six weeks. It's a big deal. So if you're going, man, how do I grow in my faith? How do I fight sin and temptation? There's your spot.

[B]

10 week discipleship experience where you meet in a group and you learn and practice these seven rhythms from Acts, chapter two. This is daily devotion. This is literally everything. We're talking about growing our faith, man. Daily devotion, prayer, repentance, generosity, community, and more. And so for people that are interested, maybe they're not part of a group yet. We'd love to tell you more about it. Text the word root it to 20411 and we'll send you an interest form as well. And then again, fall session kicks off on September 9th. And so it'll be great. It'll be fun, man. I'm sure we'll be hearing story after story, man. Yeah. Any. Any other thoughts on faith? C.S. lewis, Narnia. Growing in the faith. Strengthening in the faith.

[A]

Faith. I mean, I got a lot of.

[C]

But I mean, what to your point of rooted and all that? I mean, you. If you want to grow in your faith, you need to be in a community. Sometimes people like, struggle with doubt or struggle with sin or like any. If you're by yourself, it's going to be way harder. You need to rely on other people. Like the Bible, speak about how we can carry each other's burdens. So how can we have, you know, all that accountability with each other? So, like, I would encourage you, encourage people to just seek that community, to be connected so they can grow in their faith. Definitely.

[A]

Jan and I are gonna. We're gonna leave. We just, we led a rooted group with the elders of Lake Point. It was unbelievable. Help lead that thing.

[C]

And I was actually in the rooted group with Jenna, so it was. It was amazing.

[A]

Oh, you've done two.

[D]

Yeah, I have. I did one with the campus pastor's wife.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

Yeah, it was amazing. It was awesome. Yeah, we had. It was the best time.

[B]

Yeah, it's amazing. Well, thank you, guys.

[A]

And we're on to week three of @ the movies.

[B]

Let's go, man. We'll see you for week three.

[C]

Do you want to spoil and say hello anymore?

[A]

Not spoil anymore.

[B]

Not spoiler alert. And so, Jenna, would you pray for us?

[D]

I would love to. Oh, Father, thank you so much that you are just the founder of our faith and that you don't just start there, but you just continue to work in our hearts and our lives to grow us to become more like Christ. Thank you for never leaving us alone, always walking each path and each part of life with us and I just pray Father that you will just give us hearts that just wanted to know you deeper, to go deeper with you, to just have a strengthened relationship with you, just a daily time with you Father. So I just pray that you will solidify our faith and grow our faith and help us to become more like Christ. In Jesus name we pray. Amen.

[A]

Amen. Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step step forward in life, culture and faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to rate, review and share the podcast and don't forget to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church Online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church. Live Free. We'll see you next time.