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Live Free with Josh Howerton
Was Jesus actually PROGRESSIVE? (React to the Daily Show clip) | Live Free with Josh Howerton
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Pastor Josh Howerton
Welcome to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We're so glad you're here. Lake Pointe Church is a movement for all people to know Jesus, live free and make a difference with their lives. And this weekly podcast is all about helping you do just that. Each episode is a deep dive into the Word of God, tackling life, culture.
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And faith with truth and clarity so you can be equipped to live free in Christ.
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Thanks for tuning in and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and follow us on all our social platforms to stay connected to everything happening with Live Free. Now let's dive into today's episode.
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Here's what we're going to do in the next few minutes. There was a clip that went incredibly viral by a guy named John Fugal Song that apparently has written a very best selling book called the Separation of Church and Hate. And he was on the Daily show with Jordan Klepper. Here's why I'm doing this. This especially this year as we're leading up to the midterms, Christians are going to have an enormous amount of what you are getting ready to see thrown at them. And if you've never really thought clearly about this stuff, it can actually be kind of confusing. So here's what you're going to see and I want to break this down for you in the next few minutes. What this guy's going to do is his very strong argument that he's making is that Jesus was, in modern parlance, a progressive. Now one thing that every Christ Christians should be aware of, this is really, really important. There's a misconception that some naive, newer Christians have that the good guys use the Bible and the bad guys openly hate the Bible. That is not true. In fact, when you read the Bible, what you're gonna notice is the bad guys use the Bible almost as much as the good guys use the Bible. So for instance, Satan, the Bible says, masquerades as an angel of light. So do his lies. They masquerade that way. The serpent in the garden is literally quoting God's words and twisting them back to Adam and Eve. The Pharisees are obviously twisting the scriptures. The book of Galatians talks about how Satan will sometimes appear as an angel of light. The super apostles in 2 Corinthians, all of them are using God's word and twisting it. So here's the big idea that we want to teach people to do is what we're called to do is test everything and then hold fast to what is good. The whole reason Paul called The Bereans Noble is every time he finished teaching, they would examine the scriptures to see if what he said was true. So let's do that. Let's listen to our friend John Fugal song here and examine the scriptures to see if what he's saying is true. Here we go.
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John Fugelsang
You articulate the teachings of Jesus as inherently progressive teachings.
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Interviewer/Host
Word of God killed.
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John Fugelsang
Yeah, yeah. Now why do you think the left isn't able to utilize that?
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Pastor Josh Howerton
Okay, first, this is really important. So what this guy's argument is is that Jesus was progressive. Here's what you need to understand from a worldview perspective is progressivism is not a self standing ide. Think about even the name progressivism. Progressivism is an attempt to listen to progress past something. Now if you're really, if you're a thinking person, the question you should always ask when somebody starts saying they are progressive or talking about progressivism is huh? What are they trying to progress past? What you're going to notice is that secular progressivism is an attempt to quote progress past the historic Christian morality and the teachings of the Bible. This is why I just want to say this and dude, I get, I get crushed for this constantly, but it's just true. You will never meet somebody who becomes more and more progressive but becomes more and more committed to a theologically conservative, historic understanding of the Bible and who Jesus was. You're never going to find that person. This, by the way, is why John Mark Comer, some Christians try to do this by trying to create a species of Christianity. They call it progressive Christianity. What I just said is why John Mark Comer one time pointed out that in his experience, Christianity is just a stopover on somebody's way to post Christianity. So a big idea culturally is that not all change. Progressivism wants to change things. Let's progress past where we've been as a nation, where we've been as a society. But here's what we understand as Christians is that not all change is progress. Some things that the world calls progress, the Bible calls decay. And our friend John is going to show us some of those things.
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Interviewer/Host
I wish I knew because there's so many progressive Christians who pay attention to what the guy actually says. You look at Matthew 25, right? That's Jesus giving his marching orders the night he's arrested. It's the judgment of nations. He says, I will gather individuals and nations. This is the whole. I was a stranger and you took me in. I was hungry and you fed me. He gives four criteria for what Christians or a Christian society will have to do. And it's to individuals and nations and it's take care of the poor, take care of the sick, welcome the stranger and be kind to those in prison. Nothing about screaming at women.
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Pastor Josh Howerton
All right, so first of all, really quick, this is important. What you're going to notice with progressive Christians and progressives that use the Bible as a weapon against Christians. What you're going to notice is that here's their shibboleth. If you know what that is, the shibboleth for progressive Christians is that the Bible distinguishes between the role of the individual and the role of the state. So here's a quick theology. If you want to do a little fun homework, do a little fun. Google Search Abraham Kuyper Sphere Sovereignty this is called Kuyperian sphere sovereignty. What you're going to notice in the Bible is that in the Bible God establishes three institutions and that when those institutions stay in their God given lanes and do their God appointed roles, that it results in incredible flourishing for human societies. When one of the institutions tries to get out of its lane and do something that was assigned to one of the institutions in another lane, stuff gets really sticky. Just like if all the cars on a highway started disobeying the lane lines. So what? Abraham Kuyper, great Presbyterian theologian that also ended up being the prime minister of Switzerland. He pointed out that in the Bible God establishes three institutions of the family, the church and the state. The role of the family is reproduction, the rearing of children, education, discipleship. The role of the church is what theologians have historically called word and sacrament, care for the poor, things like this. And then the role of the state. In the Bible. In both the Old Testament and the New Testament, the role of the state are things like law and order, enforcing justice, the common defense. These are the biblical roles of these three things. When all three of these institutions stay in their lanes and do their God given roles, great things happen. When they get out of their lanes, bad things happen. Now what you just saw this fusil. I don't know how to pronounce this guy's name. What you just saw this guy do is he is conflating the biblical role of the individual with the role of the state. Now what he's wrong about is he says in Matthew 25 when Jesus gathers everybody, the end of time that he's judging and he says he gathers both nations and people. In Matthew 25, go read it for yourself. It says that Jesus will gather the nations to himself. But notice that in Matthew 25 Jesus is not Judging governments. It specifically says he's judging individuals, sheep and goats. And so here's my rebuttal to what he's saying, is that the Bible simply, simply distinguishes between the role of the individual and the role of the state. This is why, for instance, the Bible, for instance, it forbids individuals from, quote, living by the sword. But the Bible commands governments in Romans 13 to bear the sword. This is why the Bible commands individual Christians to be people who love and care for the poor and feed the poor. But then when the Bible is speaking to a church government in First Thessalonians, it tells that church government to operate by the principle, if a person will not work, they shall not eat. Differing roles, individual of church and state. This is also why you can apply this to immigration. Why the Bible? And he alludes to this mistakenly. This is why the Bible tells individual Christians, welcome the stranger, love the sojourner, you know, welcome the immigrant. But then that same God and same Bible blesses a government when it builds a wall book of Nehemiah and other places to protect his borders. So it's distinguishing between the role of the individual and the role of state. This really, really important to understand because here's what Jesus never commands. Jesus never commands governments to take money from people forcibly and then redistribute it as the government tries to step into the primary role of charity giver. The role of charity in the Bible is assigned to individual Christians and we should do that and to churches. Okay, so what the Bible wants is big church, small government. The Bible doesn't want small church, big government. I also, I'll point this out. This Fugal song guy does this. When progressive people talk about generosity to the poor, what they really mean is voting for the government to take other people's money and use their money to be generous to the poor. This is why, like a few years ago when Bernie Sanders was running, he was like the generosity candidate and then his tax returns came out and I think he gave somewhere between like 1 and 2% of his personal income to charity. Because when progressives talk about generosity to the poor, they're not actually talking about being generous to the poor. They're talking about voting for the government to forcibly take other people's money to be generous to the poor. Here's the other thing I want to say and then I want to move on. What you're going to notice, this is really interesting is this is left coded Christian nationalism what this guy is advocating for. So what you'll notice is that in public discourse, when progressives apply biblical commands to government policy, it gets called things like mercy, compassion, seeking justice, all those things. But then when conservatives take biblical commands like you shall not murder and apply them into pro life laws or the biblical definition of marriage, and then want to apply those into how the government defines marriage, when conservatives do it, it's scary Christian nationalism. And you can't force your beliefs on other people. But again, when progressives do it, it's just seeking justice. And so here's what this is. This is left coded Christian nationalism. Let's keep going.
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Interviewer/Host
Women outside clinics. Nothing about being mean to trans kids, nothing about believing in a talking snake. Jesus gives his marching orders right there.
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John Fugelsang
Where is, where is that?
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Pastor Josh Howerton
So here's the other thing you're going to notice again, left coded Christian nationalism is what you just saw. So high school debate team understanding is whoever controls the terms wins the argument. So you always got to watch for how someone frames what is happening. And this plague gets run on Christians constantly. So he says what he says. There is. He says, let me get that. He says, Jesus says nothing about screaming at women outside of, outside of abortion clinics. Okay, okay. But Jesus did say something about, you shall not murder. Matthew 5, 7. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus reinforces the biblical command not to murder and he actually elevates the biblical command to not even have hatred in our hearts. So yeah, he did say something about that. He says Jesus didn't say anything about being mean to trans kids. Again, watch this. As a Christian, you got to watch this. Whoever controls the terms wins the debate. If you reclassify disagreement as hate, that's like the go to play of progressivism. To differ is not to hate. Okay. And yes, Jesus did speak to this about disagreeing with, with queer theory and transgender ideology. Jesus specifically said in Matthew 19, I'm just going to read it. He said, haven't you read that at the beginning the Creator quote made them male and female. Jesus is affirming the biological vertical alignment between gender and sex right there and said, for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate. Which had right there is, is Jesus himself. One affirming biological, biologically determined gender and sex. Jesus is affirming in the New Testament the definition of marriage as a covenant between one man and one woman. And Jesus, this is a whole different discussion. Jesus right there is, is affirming something that would be contra no fault divorce laws. That's what's happening there. And then last he says he didn't say anything about believing in a talking snake. Yes, Jesus did very explicitly believe in a quote unquote talking snake from the book of Genesis. You'll notice when Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees, he says, you brood of vipers, referencing a snake snake. And he says, you are of your father, the devil. Okay, so actually, yeah, Jesus said something about all of those things.
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John Fugelsang
That stuff that's in Genesis, that's in Genesis.
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Interviewer/Host
Yeah, but it's why you'll never see the right wing fight to put a Jesus quote on a building, on a courthouse, or on a classroom wall.
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Pastor Josh Howerton
Yeah, yeah, okay. I just disagree with this. Here's one thing that you'll notice. You gotta watch out for this. What progressive people do, and progressive Christians especially, is they want to divide the words of Jesus from the rest of the Bible and it's an attempt to divorce, or rather, here's. It's an attempt to rescue Jesus from the other things the Bible says that they don't like. This was the movement of, if you're around in like the 80s and 90s, this was red letter Christians. And then what I'm noticing now is that progressive Christians, they really, really focus on, hey, we need to build an ethic on the Sermon on the Mountain, the Sermon on the Mount, and the Sermon on the Mount. And it's a goal to try to rescue the character of Jesus from the rest of the Bible that says things that they don't like.
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Interviewer/Host
They don't do it. They don't follow the guy, they worship him because that's a lot easier than following his inconveniently woke teachings.
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Pastor Josh Howerton
Okay, so the implication that you'll see here is that conservative Christians, they don't follow Jesus. It's the progressives that do. And again, I'm not trying to beat up on a movement, but I will say that ideas have consequences and that when an ideology is explicitly trying to progress past historic Christian morality and ethics, it bears that fruit. So what he's saying there is like, it's just legit, not true. And Christians get gaslit with this a lot. So, for instance, this is not to say that people who are conservative are perfect and people who are progressive are evil. It's just data. So, for instance, while progressive people, again, their definition of generosity is voting for the government to take other people's money and be generous, conservatives, according to data, are about three times as more generous to the poor with their own Personal money and time than progressives. If you remember this few years ago when the Syrian refugee crisis happened, the New York Times did this article and their minds were blown. The New York Times, like they could not comprehend this because when they went around to all of these refugee centers and they were finding like, who are the people who are volunteering in these refugee centers and caring for Syrian refugees? They couldn't understand. It was almost all evangelical Christians and their minds were blown. So they had to do like an entire article about it and they couldn't understand. Wait, why are the people that are voting for strong borders, the people who are also the ones helping the refugees that ended up crossing the borders? Again, we just keep going back to this. It's because Bible believing Christians have a theological biblical understanding of the differing roles of the individual and the state. And godly spirit filled Christians, they want the government to do its God given role. Romans 13, bear the sword. We are law and order people. We are support police officers people. We are protect borders, common defense people. But then at an individual level, spirit filled Christians naturally love, serve and bless anybody that's in front of us. Again, I'll just point this out. Conservative Christians adopt children. You hear this a lot progressives will say about conservatives. They'll say, oh, they're not really pro life, they're just pro birth. That's like literally insane. The data is that conservative Christians adopt children at a rate almost three times higher than the national average. And the other thing I just want to say is he said, oh man, you know, they don't follow Jesus. Like, like us progressives. I just want to say. So really what he's implying is, man, you know who does follow Jesus? The people who are trying to trans the kids and voting for policies that have killed 40 million babies. Like actually committed like a six time, a six time over. Holocaust and LGBT, all the things. So those are the ones who are actually following Jesus, according to Mr. Fugelsong. Let's keep going.
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John Fugelsang
What you talk about this Alpha Bro movement that's happening in the the Christ world, I trace.
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Pastor Josh Howerton
I like Alpha Bros. Let's see what he says.
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Interviewer/Host
Trace that straight from the Crusades up to Pete Hegseth's humiliating tattoo.
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John Fugelsang
Now you've gone too far. Now that is, that is blasphemous right there.
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Interviewer/Host
You know what? Secretary of Jagermeister thinks it's all about the violence. God wills it. That's what they said when they were waging violence against Muslims and Jews in the Crusades.
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Pastor Josh Howerton
All right, so here's a Question, does God ever will violence? And let's, you know, he brings up the Crusades. This is really important. Again, one of you got to remember this. The goal of progressivism is to get people to progress past a historic Christian understanding and a historic Christian morality. One of the ways that progressivism does that is it re. Dude, this is huge, man. Someday we can do a whole pod on examples of this. One of the ways progressivism does this is it rewrites history with Christians as the bad guys as often as possible. One of the chief examples of this is the Crusades. So like he's casting the Crusades as wicked, evil, bloodthirsty Christians who just marched in to these, you know, on these innocent, you know, Islamic nations and just started slaughtering people out of their bloodthirsty, hate filled hearts. Very frankly, if you want. Very frankly in general. Now, obviously war is hell. There's a reason that's a quote and terrible things happen in any war. So this is in no way an endorsement of everything that happened in the Crusades or any war. But in general, the Crusades zoomed out, were completely justified just wars according to Christian just war theory. They were defensive wars. They were not a conquest. They were a reconquest that was in response to 700 years of Islamic conquest. Go do this is an easy Google search. Go look and see where the very few the crusade battles took place. They all take place in nations that sometime over the last 700 years had been predominantly Christian nations that 700 years of Islamic jihad, jihadi conquest had come in and slaughtered Christians for seven centuries. So again, this is what progressivism does, is in order to convince you to progress past Christianity, it rewrites history with Christians as the bad guys. And that's a little crazy.
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Interviewer/Host
The opposite of glamorous, unsexy. Jesus who commands us to love our enemies, turn the other cheek. He also gets around to opposing the death penalty. He tells you, don't trust people who pray in public.
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Pastor Josh Howerton
Whoopsie daisy. Okay, that's not, that's not quite true. So here's the implication is. His implication is that it's unchristlike for governments to do any violence. Like when he talks about the Deus vault, the God wills it tattoo or to bear the sword. Very frankly, that's just wrong. Let me read this from Romans 13. When the Bible is defining the role of the government, it says, let everyone be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those that exist have been instituted by God. Verse 2. Therefore, whoever resists the Authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Verse 3. This is huge. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. So Romans 13:3 defines one of the roles of the government as to be a terror to those who do wrong. So whenever people talk about or they cast it as bad that the presence of police forces incite fear in people, that kind of thing. Well, the biblically defined role of the government is to be a terror to those who do bad. Now watch this. How is the government supposed to do that? According to the Bible, Romans 13:3, would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good and you will receive his approval. For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not. Now, before I read this next phrase, again we're asking the question, is it wrong for human governments to do violence? The Fusil Ganger guy is implying that the answer is yes in his best selling Separation of Church and Hate book. But let's see what the Bible says. If you do wrong, be afraid. For he, the governing authorities, does not bear the sword in vain, for he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Okay, so this is what you're seeing right here is the difference between progressivism and Christianity. At their very root is they all boil down to a difference in belief about the nature of mankind. Progressivism mistakenly believes that mankind is basically good. So we actually don't need police forces, we don't need firearms, we don't need militaries. What we actually need are therapists and counselors. Because if we just reason with people enough, they're basically good and they'll eventually start doing good things again. This is why progressivism always veers into things like defund the police, because they believe that people are basically good and that it's actually evil to treat people, you know, to bear the sword. But Christians correctly understand that no, no, people are not basically good. Actually, the biblical doctrine of mankind is, in the words of historic theologians, is total depravity, that all of their thoughts are inclined towards evil all the time. So this is why, check this out. This is really important. A biblical understanding of evil is that evil never stops itself, so it must be stopped. This is why a Christian understanding the government is one that bears the sword and uses force when necessary, including the death penalty. So you'll see this interestingly in Jesus, in Jesus and the New Testament. So for instance, Jesus specifically tells people to sell their cloaks and buy a sword. Jesus affirms the moral goodness of a husband, dad and father. Having things like firearms in his home, having weapons in his home to defend his family. That's Jesus. You get, this is really interesting. People miss this when people hear John the Baptist preaching and they repent after hearing John the Baptist preaching. There were Roman soldiers who were active military enlisted men who come up to John the Baptist and they ask him, hey, we love Jesus and we want to repent and follow Jesus. What should we do? And this is what John the Baptist said. He said, do not extort money from anyone by threats or false accusation and be satisfied with your wages. Notice what John the Baptist did not say was leave the military because governments using force and doing violence is wrong. He didn't say that. Again, you get to Romans chapter 13 and when Romans 13 says that the biblical role of the government is to quote, bear the sword, it's literally talking about the death penalty. The death penalty is a good, righteous and just thing when administered righteously because it does two things. It stops someone who is going to hurt, harm and murder other people. It stops them from doing it again. And it's a, a public dissuasion against those things. Like actually we should probably see more of that. In fact, this is a whole other podcast. In the Old Testament, when God gives the Old Testament law. In Deuteronomy, the death penalty was instituted actually to be performed publicly. Public executions. Why? To be a terrifying, sobering dissuasion against evil people feeling unrestrained in doing their evil things. So Fugal Ganger, or whatever his name is, is, is simply wrong to be seen.
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Interviewer/Host
He tells you to pay your taxes. I mean this guy could not run for office in the state of Louisiana.
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Pastor Josh Howerton
Let me just say I am not here to say that politics is not a dirty business. And I am not sure that he's wrong that Jesus would not be able to make it in, in politics. There's a reason that a government killed.
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Interviewer/Host
Him, but he's every bit. Whether he's real or not, I'm atheist. This book's for you too. Whether he's a real guy or the original hippie or the original innocent brown skinned man executed by the state, the actual team.
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Pastor Josh Howerton
Oh, you really need to pay attention to this. So he said, the original brown skinned man executed by the state. Now watch out. Stuff like that is going to get snuck at you. Really. It happens so fast you don't even realize it happened to you. But there's actually a little that's getting run on you. What progressives will do and by the way, everybody does this but progressives are the chief offenders is they'll selectively edit and reframe Jesus to make Jesus sound like he fits as a one to one correlation to a modern progressive like impulse or cause. So you know 2015 Ferguson, Missouri happens and all of a sudden everybody's talking about how Jesus was a brown skin man, a brown skinned man executed by the state. And again it's selective editing and reframing of Jesus to make him sound like a progressive cause. But what you'll notice is that it's selective editing and they'll always like leave out other parts of Jesus. So I just want to Again, you may have heard me say this before. You can selectively edit Jesus to sound like he fits any cause. Again you can say yet Jesus grew up as part of a traditional patriarchal family. Jesus was unvaccinated. Jesus was part of the majority culture in his area. Jesus commanded people to buy weapons. Jesus loved his country and his home nation. Jesus fed the poor without raising taxes. But what this guy does fugal song is he's trying to selectively edit Jesus as a mascot for his cause. But you got to remember this, Jesus is a Lord. He is not a mascot.
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Interviewer/Host
Teachings of the guy are as threatening to authoritarian power now as they were 2,000 years ago.
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Pastor Josh Howerton
That's true, that's true.
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Interviewer/Host
And I keep waiting for the Democratic Party. I mean Buddha judge does it. James Talarico in Texas is doing some great stuff. I want to see more because I'm sick and tired of seeing my parents faith used as a cloaking device for meanness.
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Pastor Josh Howerton
And we are sick and tired of seeing people use his parents faith as a cloaking device for evil.
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Thanks for tuning in to Live Free with Pastor Josh Howerton. We pray today's episode helped you take a step forward in life, culture and.
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Faith as you live free in Christ. If it encouraged you, be sure to.
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Rate, review and share the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Join us for Lake Pointe Church Online every weekend and find more resources at Lakepoint Church livefree.
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We'll see you next time.