Podcast Summary

Podcast: Live Free with Josh Howerton
Episode: Was Jesus an “Illegal Immigrant”…!? (What the Bible ACTUALLY Says)
Host: Lakepointe Church
Date: December 22, 2025

Overview of the Episode

This episode explores the intersection of Christmas, biblical history, contemporary politics, and theology. The hosts – Pastor Josh Howerton, Carlos Arazo, and Paul Cunningham – examine persistent questions around the nativity narrative, such as: Was Jesus an “illegal immigrant”? How should Christians think about immigration enforcement? What do the differences between the genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke mean? The conversation is both deep and highly practical, aiming to equip listeners to think biblically and wisely about faith, culture, and their daily walk.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The "Deep Cut" Christmas Story: Caesar Augustus vs. Jesus

(07:03–13:06)

• Historical Context: Josh recounts the origin of the title "son of God" for Caesar Augustus, relating how Augustus used the appearance of a comet after Julius Caesar’s death to claim divinity for his father and thus for himself ("my mom was human, but my dad was divine... that makes me a son of God").
• Advent Coin: The coin Augustus minted was called the "Advent coin," meant to proclaim his godhood and eternal reign ("I'm the King of kings... I'm the one that's gonna bring peace on Earth").
• Contrast to Jesus: The Gospels intentionally highlight Jesus’ advent during Augustus’ reign as a direct refutation—Jesus is the true Son of God, King of kings, and Prince of Peace.

“When Jesus comes... this is Jesus' 'I'm him' moment. Everything that guy [Caesar Augustus] said he was, I am.” — Josh, (13:04)

2. Deep Layers of the Nativity and the Bible’s Narrative

(14:39–28:47)

• "Genesis 2.0": The opening of John’s Gospel deliberately parallels Genesis: "In the beginning was the Word..." signaling Jesus as the new Adam and the start of a new creation, fulfilling ancient prophecies of a “serpent crusher.”
• Typology: John 1 is loaded with echoes of Genesis and Old Testament prophecy, setting up Jesus as both new creation and redeemer.
• Practical Implication: Listeners asked to consider: are you in Adam (old creation) or in Christ (new creation)? The peace of God comes from the presence of a Savior, not the absence of problems.

“It’s just like, dude, anxiety stuff starts stirring up... Peace is not found in the absence of problems. Peace is found in the presence of a Savior.” — Josh, (26:08)

• Invitation: You're either “in Adam” or “in Christ;” to have peace with God you must bow the knee to Jesus—personal discipleship is the practical outworking of these deep truths.

3. Christmas Typology and the Old Testament Connections

(29:30–46:57)

• Behold the Lamb: John the Baptist’s proclamation, “Behold the Lamb,” aligns with Revelation’s vision of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. John’s greatness was found in pointing people to Jesus.
• Face to Face with God: Moses could not see God’s face, but in the transfiguration (Mt. Hermon, in the promised land), Moses stands face-to-face with Jesus, the visible image of God, in the promised land—fulfilling his two deepest longings denied in life.
• Incarnation as Miracle: The hosts underscore the breathtaking mystery of the incarnation—God becoming created, adding to Himself a human nature without ceasing to be divine (hypostatic union).

“The Nativity is not a picture of how far we have to go to find God. It’s the picture of how far God went to find us.” — Paul, (43:35)

4. Understanding the Genealogies: Do Matthew and Luke Contradict?

(48:10–60:22)

• Common Objection: Critics claim discrepancies between Matthew and Luke’s genealogies contradict biblical inerrancy.
• Context: Ancient genealogies were often structured for literary or theological effect, not precise chronology. “Son of” could mean “descendant of.”
• Possible Harmonizations:
  • One genealogy traces Joseph’s line, the other Mary’s.
  • Levirate marriage could lead to different names listed as fathers or grandfathers.
  • Matthew’s genealogy is likely a royal/legal line emphasizing Jesus’ claim to David’s throne; Luke’s is more biological.
  • Matthew structures his list as three groups of 7 (perfection); Luke lists 77 names.
• Early Christians: They understood these differences, accepted them, and did not see them as contradictions.

“Do we really think Luke and Matthew got [Jesus'] grandfather’s name wrong? No. There are good, plausible explanations for these things.” — Paul, (55:51)

• Adoption Analogy: Just as Joseph’s legal adoption of Jesus fulfilled prophecy and lineage, so believers—adopted into God’s family—are true heirs.

5. Was Jesus an “Illegal Immigrant?” A Christian Response to Cultural Narratives

(60:22–79:13)

• Current Context: Progressive groups sometimes use the nativity scene to equate Jesus, Mary, and Joseph with contemporary undocumented immigrants, sometimes placing nativity sets inside cages as political protest.
• Historical Accuracy: Josh clarifies:
  • During the nativity, Joseph and Mary were obeying the Roman census; they were not unlawfully crossing borders.
  • The journey to Egypt was within the Roman Empire—no illegal border crossing occurred.
  • Jesus’ family registered with authorities, showing obedience to civil law.
• Empathy vs. Truth: Christians called to deep compassion but should avoid "toxic empathy"—when emotional appeals are used to move believers away from truth or just application of law.
• Government vs. Individual Role: The Bible distinguishes between the government’s role (order, justice) and the individual’s (love, charity). Enforcing just immigration laws is not the same as lacking Christian love.
• False Dichotomies: Believers are not compelled to pick between law enforcement and loving immigrants—all are called to both justice and compassion.

“Jesus is a lord, he’s not a mascot. And when we start selectively editing Jesus to justify either the breaking of the laws of a nation or to oppose... we are weaponizing Jesus in a way that contradicts the way that he has commanded us.” — Josh, (71:10)

• Practical Pastoral Reality: Especially in Hispanic communities, the challenge is to pastor people experiencing real fear—leaders should pursue both truth (law) and compassion (pastoral care).

“You do not have to say, 'I disregard law because I care about people.' Nor, 'I shouldn’t care about people because I care about law.' It’s a false dichotomy. We’re Christians before anything else.” — Carlos, (76:59)

6. Political Discourse: On Trump, Voting, and Christian Priorities

(79:13–87:17)

• Trump and Recent Events: Josh addresses Trump’s insensitive comments regarding Rob Reiner's murder.
• Three Types of Leaders:
  • Josiah: righteous, noble.
  • Jehu: flawed, but used to fight a greater evil.
  • Jezebel: overtly wicked.
• Christian Approach: Don’t "saviorize" political leaders, but choose pragmatically for the common good. Critique all leaders morally—hold them to a standard regardless of party.

“A vote is someone making a pragmatic choice about what is the best available path forward between the options given to me.” — Josh, (84:49)

• Ultimate Allegiance: Christians are citizens of Christ’s kingdom first; policies matter, but so do character and truth.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Peace is not found in the absence of problems; peace is found in the presence of a Savior.” — Josh, (26:08)
• “The Nativity is the picture of how far God was willing to come to find us and to save us.” — Paul, (43:35)
• "When people say, 'Oh, the Bible never says Jesus was God,'... I award you no points. We are all dumber for having...” — Josh, (36:35) [jokingly, after discussing textual connections]
• “Do we really think Luke and Matthew got [Jesus'] grandfather’s name wrong? No.” — Paul, (55:51)
• “Jesus is a lord, he’s not a mascot.” — Josh, (71:10)
• “You do not have to say, 'I disregard law because I care about people.'... It’s a false dichotomy.” — Carlos, (76:59)
• “A vote is someone making a pragmatic choice about what is the best available path forward between the options given to me.” — Josh, (84:49)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Caesar Augustus & Advent Coin Deep Dive: 07:03–13:06
• John 1 as “Genesis 2.0” (New Creation): 15:02–28:47
• Moses, the Promised Land, and Seeing God’s Face: 31:29–39:36
• Incarnation and Hypostatic Union: 39:36–46:57
• Genealogies of Jesus Explained: 48:10–60:22
• Nativity, Immigration, and Political Use/Misuse: 60:22–79:13
• Trump, Politics, Christian Allegiance: 79:13–87:17

Takeaways & Discipleship Applications

• True Christmas Peace: Lasting peace comes from Christ, not politics, not circumstances.
• Facing Deep Questions: Intellectual challenges (genealogies, Bible "contradictions") have thoughtful, theologically rooted answers.
• Compassion & Justice: Christians must love the immigrant personally and support just, humane laws as citizens—these are not in conflict.
• Rejecting Idolatry of Leaders: Don’t turn political figures into saviors; hold them accountable as salt and light.
• Stand in Awe: Sometimes the best application is to stand in worshipful awe of the God who came near.

In the words of the hosts:

“Just stand in awe of Jesus. If that is what you’ll be doing for eternity, why not start now?” — Paul, (46:30)