Why Socialism is a Disastrous Idea (and UNBIBLICAL)?! | Live Free with Josh Howerton

Summary

Podcast Summary: Live Free with Josh Howerton

Episode: Why Socialism is a Disastrous Idea (and UNBIBLICAL)?!
Release Date: January 5, 2026
Host: Lakepointe Church
Panel: Pastor Josh Howerton, Pastor Paul Cunningham, and Carlos Arazo

---

Overview

In this episode, the hosts dive deep into why socialism is, in their view, both disastrous in practice and unbiblical in principle. The discussion weaves theological clarity with cultural commentary, analyzing the rise of socialist sentiment in America, referencing recent political events, and grounding their arguments in biblical doctrine—especially around the concepts of individual rights, property, and the true nature of compassion and freedom. The episode is peppered with personal stories, apologetic reasoning, vivid biblical exposition, and even a debate about tattoos and New Year’s resolutions, all held together in a casual yet passionate tone.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. New Year, Listeners & Discipleship (00:30–05:00)

• The hosts start with banter about the New Year (2026), church rhythms, and the podcast’s focus on discipleship over “viewership.”
• Engagement with the audience: Encouraging interaction about New Year’s resolutions.
• Notable Moment: Josh recounts a touching story of a listener (Brian from Indiana) whose life changed due to the podcast, emphasizing the goal of life transformation, not just content consumption.

---

2. Tackling Race, Family, and Speaking Truth (05:00–15:00)

• Josh addresses what it’s like raising minority adopted kids and talking frankly about race without awkwardness.
  • Quote: “Doing the transracial adoption thing... eliminates every ounce of awkwardness around race that you ever had. So it’s like, I’m uncomfortably comfortable with that.” — Josh [05:13]
• Transparency and the importance of dealing directly with difficult topics in a Christian family context.
• Illustration: At-home “react videos” to news coverage about race, and teaching kids to use “lie detectors” on narratives they hear.
  • Quote: “I have, like, an aggressive, almost like a violence in me as a dad that, like, I will not let anyone plant a thought in my kid's heart that 'I can’t because of my skin color.'” — Josh [12:53]

---

3. Social Media, Culture, and the Elon Musk Retweet (06:00–13:50)

• Josh’s tweet criticizing San Francisco’s reparation policy (despite California never allowing slavery) goes viral after Elon Musk retweets it.
  • Quote: “A state that never allowed slavery wants to make residents who never owned slaves pay reparations to people who never were slaves. You know... I was just showing how absurd this is.” — Josh [07:15]

---

4. Sermon Deep Dive: “It Is Finished” & The Cross (15:00–41:00)

a. Greek Roots and Biblical Theology

• Tetelestai (“It is finished”) as the core of Christian identity—parallels to business receipts, judicial sentences, and military victory.
  • Quote: “When Jesus cries out, ‘It is finished,’ he’s saying three things:... the debt for your sin has been fully paid... the penalty... fully satisfied... and the battle... fully and completely won.” — Josh [32:11]
• Intricacies of Jesus’ final moments (John 19)—connections between Passover (hyssop), leprosy purification, and the cross.
  • Paul: “With Jesus, when a clean thing touches the unclean things, the unclean things become clean. That’s why John 19 mentions the hyssop thing.” [26:52]

b. Gospel Clarity & Atonement Theories Explained (41:52–56:37)

• Paul runs through six classic “atonement motifs”:
  1. Moral Influence (Christ changes us)
  2. Christus Victor (Christ conquers for us)
  3. Ransom/Redemption (Christ pays for us)
  4. Satisfaction (Christ upholds God’s honor)
  5. Recapitulation (Christ restores/renews our story)
  6. Penal Substitution (Christ dies for us—as foundation for all the above)
  • Quote: “Christ dies for us... this is actually at the heart of all the other ones I just mentioned.” — Paul [49:51]
• The cross is shown as more than “divine child abuse”—a voluntary, Trinitarian, and loving act.
  • Quote: “No, God willingly went to the cross. Himself, himself.” — Josh [58:14]

c. Alistair Begg’s Iconic Illustration (36:21–39:15)

• A moving clip dramatizes assurance of salvation: “The man on the middle cross said I can come.”
  • Quote: “If you answer that... in the first person, we’ve immediately gone wrong... The only proper answer is in the third person: ‘Because he... Because he [Jesus].’” — Alistair Begg [37:13]

---

5. Socialism: Current Events, Ideology, & Biblical Response (64:43–95:07)

a. Context: Zoran Mamdani’s Inauguration & “The Warmth of Collectivism” (64:43–71:57)

• Analysis of Mamdani’s quote: “We will replace the frigidity of rugged individualism with the warmth of collectivism.”
  • Quote: “Rugged individualism built the greatest civilization that humanity has ever seen. And let me just say, the warmth of collectivism has killed 100 million people in the last century.” — Josh [71:10]

b. Christian Response to Theocracy & Morality in Law

• Every nation is a de facto theocracy—it just depends which “Theo” (god/ideology) is in charge.
  • Quote: “Every human government is some form of a theocracy. The question is, whose Theo?” — Josh [68:24]

c. Socialism Unpacked: Historical, Practical, and Biblical Critiques

• The Old Testament presumes individual property rights (10th Commandment).
  • Quote: “Literally in the Decalogue, one of the Ten Commandments is the assumption of personal property rights over against the state being able to infringe those things.” — Josh [75:39]
• Socialism’s “generosity” via compulsion is unbiblical versus biblical voluntary charity.
  • Paul’s rebuttal to Acts 5: “Actually, if you go to Acts 5... Peter is actually going overboard to try to make the point of: you didn’t have to do this. Whereas in socialism, it’s coerced.” [82:40]
• History lesson: The collapse of Venezuela and USSR as warnings; Scandinavian countries are not true socialist examples.

d. Why Socialism Fails (81:42–88:10)

• It centralizes—doesn’t remove—greed, creates state as the new god, destroys incentive for hard work and responsibility, and leads to violence (“socialism is communism before it gets guns”).
  • Quote: “Socialism very much penalizes those things. If you’re really successful, we’re actually just going to take it away from you and give it to somebody else.” — Josh [89:33]
• Real life video clips: Venezuelans celebrating liberation from socialist rule.

e. Finale: Spurgeon vs. Marx (89:45–95:07)

• The “legendary story” of Charles Spurgeon publicly preaching against Marx’s socialism in Victorian London.

  • Quote (Spurgeon, read by Josh): “They are going to regenerate the world by democratic socialism and set up a kingdom without new birth or the pardon of sin... It is, by the confession of its inventors, the outcome of the period, the monstrous birth of boasted progress... It is, when it touches the cross, an enemy.”

  • Key message: If Christian leaders don’t speak up, secular ideologies will fill the void.

  • Quote: “Unleash the pulpits. Do your job. That’s our job.” — Josh [95:08]

---

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• On raising adopted minority kids:
  “I just fired right back. I said, you never been a slave, and I’ve never owned a slave. Do the dishes.” — Josh [11:38]

• On gospel assurance:
  “The man on the middle cross said I could come.” — Alistair Begg [39:15]

• On social systems:
  “All socialism is, is communism before it gets guns.” — Josh [66:21, 88:10]

• On biblical charity:
  “Generosity is to the individual. It’s not forced. So... he says, what remained unsold, did it not remain your own?” — Paul [82:40]

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• Race and Family Transparency: 05:09–13:50
• Sermon Insights—Tetelestai & Greek Exegesis: 15:13–33:39
• Alistair Begg’s Preaching Clip: 36:21–39:15
• Six Views on the Atonement: 41:52–56:37
• Penal Substitution & Theological Drift: 56:37–64:37
• Socialism and Collectivism Critique: 64:43–89:45
• Spurgeon vs. Marx: 89:45–95:07

---

Conclusion

This episode operates both as a theological masterclass (especially in the area of the atonement and salvation by grace) and an urgent call for Christians to understand how biblical convictions should inform cultural, political, and economic beliefs—especially regarding socialism. The conversational, sometimes humorous tone never loses its earnestness or depth, making the content both challenging and accessible.

The central message: Freedom and transformation are found in Christ’s finished work—not in self-effort, collective utopian dreams, or statist solutions. Christianity offers a true vision of compassion, justice, and liberty, far richer and more proven than any political system or new ideology.

---

For Further Study:
– Listen to Alistair Begg’s full sermon (as referenced)
– Recommended resource: "Death by Love" by Mark Driscoll
– Biblical passages unpacked: John 19; Romans 3; Ephesians 2; Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24; Colossians 2

---

End Note:
Pastor Josh closes in prayer, thanking God for Christ’s eternal kingdom and praying that listeners would be freshly stunned by God’s limitless love in the cross. The tone is pastoral, equipping, and rallying: Christians should “run with endurance... as men and women of God” (95:15).

Transcript

[A]

The only way the government can redistribute is to take it. And people don't want to give it up.

[B]

We're not set free because of our own capacity or effort or because of chance. The only way we are set free if somebody pays the penalty in our place. And that's Jesus, and he sets us free.

[A]

We're not freed to sin. We are freed from sin.

[C]

The cross is a picture of how much God hates sin. It's also a picture of how much God loves you. What?

[B]

Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Live Free Podcast 2026.

[A]

2026.

[B]

Coming to you from Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas. My name is Carlos Arazo and I'm here with Pastor Josh Hton and Pastor Paul Cunningham. And today we're going to be talking about some things.

[A]

Oh, wait, go and tell them.

[B]

We're going to be talking about socialism. Why Christians are sometimes gullible for their compassionate compassion narrative. We're going to be reacting to a Zoran Mamdani video where he will be talking about the frigidity of R individualism and the warmth of collectivism. And I want to hear your thoughts.

[C]

Everywhere collectivism has gone, it's been really warm.

[A]

It's gone really warm.

[B]

Those are his words. And I also want to hear your thoughts on how he was sworn in with the Quran. We're going to go there and we're going to do a deep dive on the legendary story of Charles Spurgeon beefing with Karl Marx.

[A]

That's a true story. Not a lesser known story, by the way.

[B]

It's really interesting.

[A]

Lesser known story, but up top, when we talk about Jesus and the Bible.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah, man. It was week one of boot camp training for team Jesus. Come on, man. A disciple believes it is finished.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

New year 2026, man. You doing good with your resolutions.

[A]

You know, dude, that's not my thing. I've never been that guy.

[B]

Speaking of that, that's the question for this week's giveaway. Oh, do you think resolutions work or do they not work?

[A]

So people are going to respond to the comments?

[B]

That's right. So if you want to participate in this week's giveaway, go to YouTube and let us know in the comments. Yes or no? Do you think New Year's resolutions work?

[A]

Hey, Josh. No, no, no, no, no. Before you go there, pop quiz. Carlos, I don't want to be. Do you know what BC and AD Stand for?

[B]

I do.

[A]

What are they? Do it.

[B]

Do it before Christ. And the year of our Lord, Anno Domino.

[A]

That's it. Okay. Because most people think it's after death. Most people think before Christ and then AD is after death, which obviously is not the case because there'd be like a 33 year gap and Odomini, Latin year of our Lord. All right, well, good man.

[B]

I'm a fan of Spanish. Came from Latin, so I'm a fan of Latin.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

There you go. So, yeah, that's right. So shout out to as well to the last week's or actually last year's winner, Deidre Gray. She or he won a hat.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

Come on, man. We want to give away some hats.

[B]

Hey, great sermon, by the way.

[A]

Thank you, man. Thank you. Just finished preaching it twice. I had fun doing it.

[B]

Your sermon's finished and you preached on. It is finished.

[A]

Yes, that is true. And then I'm going to go home and eat my feelings and carbs.

[B]

And by the way, we just met Brian from Indiana.

[A]

He bro, this guy, can I just brag on him? So this never happens. Like, I've been here seven years. I have never before a sermon, walked out in the lobby before preaching because I'm like praying through it. But today I did. And it, quote unquote, just so happened. A live free listener named Brian, he started listening to the pod, started getting into his Bible, God starts changing his life, and then he asked his dad for Christmas for plane tickets to fly here with his father. Wow. And worship in person at Lake Point. I'm just saying, man, like when, when young men are opening the Word, their lives are getting changed and they want to fly with their dad to worship at a church together. Something's going good. So shout out Brian, Live free nation.

[B]

Let's go, man. One thing we're excited about this year as well, and you mentioned it in your sermon, but basically because we're not especially here for Live Free, we're not in the viewership business. We're in the discipleship business. We have re engineered our LP app, our Lake Point app. And so basically, we want to make sure that the discipleship rhythms here in our church are aligned. And so we want you to be in the Word daily. We want you to listen to the sermon, then jump into the live free podcast and then find a discipleship group with the discipleship guide. And so you can do that by basically just downloading the LakePoint app. You can text the word app to 20411 or you can go to the Apple Store or Google Play Store. And find it as you look up Lake Point Church's app. It's great. Let's go.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Hey, man, before we start, I actually have a question for you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I was wondering if you're gonna allow it.

[A]

I will, I will. I will, actually.

[B]

No, no. But, hey, do you mind if I ask you a more sensitive question? Of course you have. Pastor Josh, you have three beautiful adopted children.

[A]

I do.

[B]

Who are minorities. And I wanted.

[A]

They are. I have noticed.

[B]

I wanted to ask you if. Does it ever.

[A]

First of all, let me just say this. What's funny is, anytime I talk about this, the only people that are uncomfortable is everybody except me. Seriously, whatever you ask, that'll be a part of this. It's like having. Doing the transracial adoption thing, it eliminates every ounce of awkwardness around race that you ever had. So it's like I'm uncomfortably comfortable with that.

[B]

I wanted to ask you, does it ever create tension for you to say things like what Elon Musk retweeted?

[A]

Okay, so from you.

[B]

All right, go ahead. Explain what. Explain what happened.

[A]

Yeah. So. Okay, this is actually a good question. This is a really good question. So I went to Passion this week. It was amazing. And then in the middle of. In the middle of. I think it was while John Tyson was preaching, my phone explodes. And. Yeah, we did. I did get the. Let me.

[B]

I'm.

[A]

I'm pulling it up. I got the Elon Musk retweet. And he responded. He, like, actually responded to a tweet last time.

[B]

A year ago. Yeah, a year ago, he. He retweeted you, but now he responded.

[A]

We're friends now. The third time, Elon, Live free nation. Come join.

[C]

Come join.

[A]

And tithe.

[B]

Next time he retweets you, he'll follow you.

[A]

That's. I hope so.

[B]

And then the fourth time, he'll be here.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Uh, so here. Here's the tweet. I just wanted to.

[A]

Okay, so let me just. Let me cap this. So this is on X, and X is where I'm a little. I'm less filtered on X than anywhere else. I specific, by the way. I specifically have my X profile byline. This is where I talk about culture and politics so that people don't think, well, this freaking guy. That's all he talk. This. That's my space to. You know. So. Okay, so this is actually a really interesting question. So San Francisco just. They're moving towards. They signed a bill to give African American residents of San Francisco $5 million each in reparations. And then. But, you know, they didn't fund it yet. So I tweeted, a lot of people don't know this. California's in its original state constitution, when it joined the union, from the first time California ever became part of the United States, slavery was outlawed. So it literally never legally allowed slavery. So I was trying to highlight how stupid the, you know, San Francisco reparations thing was. And I said, a state that never allowed slavery wants to make residents who never owned slaves pay reparations to people who never were slaves. You know, I'm just showing how absurd this is. And. Yeah, Elon Musk. Oh, you have it right there. Yeah, he just said insane. And I was glad he wasn't talking about me. He was agreeing with me. And then he retweeted it, and my phone exploded.

[B]

2.3 million views later.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so you were. You were gonna say, like, do you ever.

[A]

Wait, what was your question?

[B]

Yeah, my question was, does it ever create tension for you to say things like, what, you like that?

[A]

Okay. Like, because. Because we have, you know, our kids are black.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So here's what I'll say is. So a few things on this. Number one, I'm less uncomfortable than anyone else in the room talking about this. And it's just nature having kids. In fact, I'll give an example of this, and Kias may have to edit it out later. We'll decide later. But seriously, I just want to give you an example. When we did the transracial adoption thing, what some people advised us to do is like, dude, just be really careful. You want to be super sensitive, and da, da, da, da. And we just decided we were going to do the exact opposite. So we were like, no, we're just going to literally talk about everything. We're going to have no weird feelings about it at all. And. And we talk about everything all the time. We will watch the news with them. And because race stuff is constantly news, we'll watch the news with them. And honestly, we'll do, like, at home react videos where we'll watch the news, and I'll be like, so they just said this thing. And I'll pause it, and I'll be like, y' all put on your li. We call it put on your lie detectors. So I'll be like, hey, kids, put on your lie detectors. And. And we try to train them how to think about those things, because everybody's shoving it, you know, shoving it in the conversation all the time. So, like, I'm gonna give an example of how comfortable we are in our house. And then y' all can decide if we should take this off the pod. It's like, this is a true story. I'm gonna give an example, and then I want to answer your question. It's a true story. It's like, we talk about. They learn about slavery at school, and then they'll come home and you will, you know, hey, so here's what's true. Here's what's not true. That you'll sometimes, like, one time they came home and they literally thought white Americans invented slavery. So I had to, like, take them back. Like, okay, no, it's like, let's talk about, you know, all the things.

[B]

Wonder how they got that idea.

[C]

I.

[A]

It was. We talked about that at last. Do you know why? It's because literally the only form of slavery anyone ever hears about in an American public school system is white colonial slavery. That's the only kind. So it leaves the impression that, oh, white people invented. So we had to. When we walked them through. Actually, no, guys. So, like, every human culture that ever existed before Christian cultures took root in the west had slavery. And you probably had some ancestors that may have been slaves. So did me and your mom at some. Like, everyone has, you know, it was mind blowing to them. So here's my example that may be a little uncomfortable is one of our kids. So one of their responsibilities is they have to do the dishes. Oh, Paul.

[C]

I feel like I telegraphed first.

[A]

Paul already looks uncomfortable. Carlos, you're not very comfortable. So they do the. This is so one time. This is literally true. One time. One of our kids, we had just finished talking about this stuff, and one of our kids literally joking. They're, like, joking. And one of our kids is like, oh, well, your people are always trying to make us slaves, aren't you? And I just. And she was joking. I won't say which one of my kids, by the way. I just want to say this. What I've learned is if somebody can joke and laugh about something that's a symptom, that their soul is usually in a good place. It's. There's not like, some gaping open wound if they can. So I just fired right back. I said, you never been a slave, and I've never owned a slave. Do the dishes. You know, I was big. So it's just like, you just get used to, like, all the things that are awkward for other people. You know, as a dad, it's like, I'm going to run at that conversation. I'm not going to avoid it and tiptoe, like, it's super sensitive and we can. Makes it bigger in their hearts. So anyway, to answer your question, not at all. And, like, the stuff that I tweeted, there is stuff that we talk about with our kids, all three of whom, you know, have. Are at the very least, biracial. So, like, honestly, dude, here's how I think about it. And this, you know, some people may disagree with this. I'm just telling you how I look at it. And they're my kids. And you can deal with your kids. I'm gonna deal with my kids in 2025. 2026. I gotta get used to that. In 2026, United States of America, our kids, we live in what some people would probably call, like, the epicenter of racism. They would be like, oh, us, you know, a red county in southern Texas. I bet it is super racist. Our kids. I'm not saying it's true for everybody. I'm talking about my kids. My kids. I got one that's 14. They have literally never experienced an instance of racism yet, like, actual biblically defined racism. And the reason that I tweet stuff like that and the reason that I talk to my kids about stuff like that and it's not awkward at all is because in 2026, in America, like, very honestly, my kids are more likely to experience somebody indoctrinating them with a victim mentality than they are to experience actual racism. So, honestly, I just run right at it. And I'll just be honest. Like, I have, like a. An aggressive. Almost like a violence in me as a dad that, like, I will not let anyone plant a thought in my kid's heart that I can't because of my skin color. I'm gonna. I will viciously fight any narrative that makes them believe that they are helpless because of et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, no, it's not awkward for me at all. And no, it creates no tension whatsoever. And Elon can keep retweeting it.

[B]

Let's go, man. Well, 2.3 million people saw that tweet.

[A]

Are you for real?

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[C]

Yeah, so far.

[A]

That's stupid.

[B]

So far. It's probably more now at this point. That was a screenshot.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

That's interesting. That's a great conversation. At some point, we're gonna have to do a little deep dive on this conversation.

[A]

I think we should, man. At some point, we should. It's just sometimes I'll get a smidge of, you know, just a Smidge of hot water. Because I'm so comfortable with the conversations, and I know I view it differently than some people. Yeah, I get that.

[B]

Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, Burke and I have some conversations on, you know, race, but I guess I don't think about this, but I guess I'm. I'm married, and I have an interracial marriage. I suppose. I guess I never think about this, but. And my son is biracial. I suppose he doesn't look like it, but. But, you know, it's. It's one of those things that's like, the more you talk about it, you know, the more you, you know, just kind of be transparent and have conversations.

[A]

Yeah, that's great. That's right, man.

[B]

Pastor Josh, I have another question.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

Okay. You're going to allow it?

[A]

I can't. Wait.

[B]

What did it make into the sermon, bro?

[A]

So this was a. This is a big. This is a big sermon series for us. I'm going to pull this up real quick. We started this week boot camp training for team Jesus. This is going to be a year of discipleship at Lake Point. And we began with. We began with a disciple believes that it is finished. So who sermon was really on? Jesus cry from the cross to tell us die. If I was ever gonna get tattoo, it would be the word to tell us die.

[B]

You're not gonna get a tattoo?

[A]

No, I said my body's already perfect.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

That's a joke.

[B]

No, you did say that.

[A]

I did get that in the term. You did. You did.

[B]

But I was just curious if you ever. You know, because some people might be wondering, never gonna get a tattoo?

[A]

No. I'm not a tattoo guy.

[B]

Okay. Because this is not what we plan.

[A]

To plan about, but I'm kind of curious. Yeah, no, I'm just not a tattoo guy. It's not my thing. I don't. I feel like I'm gonna regret it if I do. That's fair. I don't know. It's not my thing.

[B]

Paul tattoo.

[C]

I have a few. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, dude, Paul's loaded up.

[C]

He didn't know that gangsta I was this.

[A]

Actually, dude, I was this close to.

[C]

Getting one on, like, New Year's Eve.

[A]

Seriously, what were you gonna get?

[C]

I've had to show it to you to describe it to me. It was gonna be from the 19th century.

[A]

You were gonna get a live free tramp stamp, weren't you? Weren't you?

[C]

I mean, maybe. Maybe I have it now, but I just ashamed to show it on the. On the Season? No, it's from the Nice and Creed. I'll show you a picture of what I'm thinking of, Chad.

[A]

Gpawt. He was getting Nice and Creed.

[C]

Of course he would. Yeah, of course you would get the divinity and humanity of Jesus. It's actually a pretty cool idea. Like, my kids saw that, the idea for it, and they're like, dad, that's awesome. So I was this close. If I get it going back and forth between my forearm. Oh, we'll see.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Okay, we'll see. As of right now, are you going.

[A]

To tell us what it is?

[C]

Are you going to say no tattoos? I'll save it and I'll see you later.

[A]

Wait, for real? Yeah. 30 seconds. Before I talk about what you're making in the sermon, will you show your left arm? Right arm, Cat, because this is awesome. Did you not know this?

[B]

I have no idea, bro. Paul, who are you?

[A]

Oh, you know this?

[B]

No, I didn't know.

[A]

Paul's gangsta.

[B]

He is gangsta.

[C]

So, yeah. So my first tattoos I got were from Ephesians 2. So I've got one on my right arm and then one on my left. And so.

[A]

Oh, look at those ones.

[B]

Look at that.

[C]

I can instinctively flex.

[B]

Look at that.

[C]

More impressive.

[B]

He's like, you see this part over here?

[C]

You see this Greek. Let's zoom in right around here. So you've got technon orgas, which is from Ephesians 2. It means children of wrath, the idea that we were by nature children of wrath. And so I have this one to remind me of what I was before Christ. Because then in Ephesians 2. Let me turn a little bit. In Ephesians 2, you then have hode theos, which literally means but God. So I love. Because basically for a few verses, it talks about who we were before Christ, of how we were enslaved, says Satan, and how we are by nature children of wrath. But then in Greek it literally just says, but God. And so I have this one to remind me of what I once was. But then I have this one to remind me of what God did on my behalf. And so that's what I've got. And then I may always make the joke that I really hope I don't, like, lose my left arm. I guess it would be. Because then I would just be a shout of wrath. I guess I could just get the tattoo of God beneath. But yeah, so those were the first tattoos. I've got another one on my chest, though.

[B]

It is Greek, right?

[C]

Obviously, yes, this is Greek.

[B]

So in your sermon, you shared about the Greek word for it is finished.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. So let me say a few things on this. I'm going to read the passage because it's short, and then let me just say a few things that didn't make it in. And then I would like to. Because I almost played this clip. I literally almost played a preaching clip from another preacher in my sermon, and I didn't feel like I had time. In my opinion, it is the greatest three minutes of preaching I've ever heard in my life. Wow. And I. So I almost just played it. All right, so here's the passage. And this is where the Christian life begins. John 19:28. After this, Jesus, knowing Jesus, he's always on the cross, obviously knowing that all was now finished. So here's one thing I didn't have time to make it to. So in. In verse 28, when it says knowing that all was now finished, and then later he obviously cries out, it is finished. It's the same root Greek word, it is finished is tetelestai. The Greek word that gets used in knowing that it is now finished is like tell, tell, tell, something like that. It's hard to pronounce, but it's the same root word. One thing that's very interesting that I did not have time to talk about is when it says knowing that all was finished, bro, what this means. Most Bible scholars think Jesus literally was had either memorized in his humanity or was aware of in his divinity, of every single prophecy in the Old Testament that he had to fulfill, and he spent his entire life doing a checklist. So when it says here, knowing that all was now finished, an astute Bible reader asked the question, well, what's finished? Jesus is up there going, okay, I'm choking to death on my own blood. And he's like, now we did what we were supposed to do. So he says, to fulfill the scripture. Now this is really interesting. Then he says, I thirst now, bro. This is. I want to know what you think about this. You got a dovetail on this. So it's really interesting. How can the same guy who says, I'm the living water, if anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink, and out of him will flow living waters. How can that guy say, I thirst now? This is. This is a little bit of a deep cut. I heard Tim Keller say this one time. So obviously what the book of Hebrews says is that everything in the Old Testament was written for our instruction, and it points forward to Jesus. So one way to read the Bible this is also a deep cut. Old school killer. One way to read the Bible is a lot like watching the movie the Sixth Sense, where you watch the whole movie and you're like, bro, this doesn't quite make sense. Why is that happening? Why is that happening? Why is that happening? And then it gets to the end and there's the big reveal. Have you seen the Sixth Sense? I feel real bad.

[C]

I wanted to save it.

[B]

I was like, I think I have at some point.

[A]

No, bro, you would know.

[B]

You know, I know the ending. I know the whole line. I see dead people.

[C]

I was trying to save it because he didn't give too much detail.

[A]

He had to see it.

[B]

I'm culturally aware of.

[A]

All right, so you get to the end and you find out he was dead the whole time. Then you go back and you listen, you watch the movies, the rest through the lens of the reveal at the end. Okay? That's how to read the Bible.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You read the whole Testament and there's all this stuff like, bro, why are they painting doorposts with lamb's blood? Why is there a sacrificial lamb on the day of atonement? And they put the sins on the one and he leaves, and then this one stays. Okay, well, here's one. Okay, you get to the. Why does he say, I thirst? So Moses is in the wilderness. God commands Moses to speak. The children of Israel, they need some water. God commands Moses to speak to the rock. Moses chooses to take his rod and strike the rock instead of speaking to it. When he strikes, the rock waters. Living waters flow out of the rock to satisfy all the people's thirst. Now there's a whole thing of God actually judged Moses for not obeying him to speak to the rock. And you know all the things. Well, bro, here's the deal. This is fascinating. This is a little Bible as sixth sense moment. Moses rod is constantly used as a rod of judgment. It's an instrument of judgment. That is why all 10 of the plagues of God's wrath being poured out on Egypt are instituted and executed through the rod of judgment. Moses has. So then Moses comes up to the rock, strikes the rock with the rod of God's judgment. And when the rock is struck with the rod of God's judgment, water flows to satisfy the thirst of the people. All right, well, now fast forward to Jesus. Jesus comes and he is the stone the builders rejected that has now become the cornerstone. On this rock, I will build my church. What is the rock? The confession that you are the Christ, the son of the living God. And then at the cross, Jesus is struck with the rod of God's judgment. And when he is struck with the rod of judgment, living water flows to satisfy the people of God. The reason he cries out, I thirst is in the same way all the water flowed out of the rock for the people is he was being struck with the rod of judgment, living water was flowing, and it was divesting itself from the rock himself. Wow. And, bro, that's amazing.

[C]

It's the Bible, and in John, it specifically says this. This little detail of. They held it up with a hyssop branch. Yeah, a hyssop branch is what would be used in the Old Testament to put the blood on the doorpost at Passover.

[A]

Okay, bro.

[C]

And Jesus is the new Passover lamb.

[A]

Okay, you're beating me there. You're beating me there. So I want to know. This is big, dude. This is a big deal right here.

[C]

Big detail.

[A]

All right, so I'm gonna. So this is the next. So verse 29, dude, this is the kind of stuff that never makes it into sermons. It drives me nuts. Verse 29, A jar full of sour wine stood there. So they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. All right, so then you ask the question, man, why do they actually take the time to Paul's point to specifically point out it was a hyssop branch? All right, well, hyssop, honestly, you do your little word study. Hyssop is only mentioned. It's four times. If I understand correctly, there's four times in the Old Testament. Hyssop is significant. And it's mentioned. All right, One, at the Passover, whenever the sacrificial lamb at the first Passover, children of Israel in there, when they tell him to put blood on the doorpost and the lentils, God specifically commands. He didn't say just put them up there. He commands, you got to use hyssop. And every Israelite dude would have been like, why? Yeah, well, that's a six sense thing. You'll find out in about 1500 years. Okay, all right, here's the other one. After David commits adultery with Bathsheba, Psalm 51, David prays, purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean. So we already know there's some level of awareness in the people of God's interior. Dude, there's something sin cleansing about hyssop. I can't figure out what it is. Here's the other one. I love this so much. Here's the Other one in the purification ritual that's outlined in Exodus and Deuteronomy for a leper. So this is really important. This is a little, little theological deep cut. In the Old Testament law, if somebody was unclean for any reason, and leprosy would make you unclean, if an unclean thing touched a clean thing, the unclean thing would make the clean thing unclean. Bookmark. Mark that in your head. Okay, so then you know, if you have leprosy, you were declared unclean. But then if somehow the disease went away, Exodus, Deuteronomy outline a way for you to go to the temple and go through a purification rite with the priest for you to be cleansed and declared clean. And guess what plant it specifically prescribes had to be used in the cleansing process for an unclean leper. Hyssop. It's hisop. Wow. So ro. Then you fast forward and to the New Testament. Jesus constantly has these lepers that are walking up to him. And remember, in the Old Testament, if an unclean thing touched a clean thing, the clean thing becomes unclean. But Jesus in the New Testament touches lepers. And when Jesus touches them, he works it backwards. And when Jesus touches lepers in the New Testament, their leprosy is healed and they're cleansed. So with Jesus, when Jesus, a clean thing touches the unclean things, the unclean things become clean. What this passage is saying that I didn't have time to get to in the sermon is it's drawing on all those Old Testament analysis. He's the Lamb's blood that they spread on the doorposts with hyssop there. He is the only one who could cleanse David from the spot of his adultery and murder. Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean. He's the one who can wipe away the uncleanliness of your soul and your sin and reverse the thing that was done to lepers. That's why John 19 mentions the hyssop thing.

[B]

Wow. And so you're saying, so hyssop all throughout the Old Testament is salvation, cleansing, purification, forgiveness. John 19:29 says that hyssop was basically, it touched the lips of Jesus right before he said, it is finished. And so in that it is finished, Jesus is bringing that salvation, the healing, forgiveness, and the reconciliation. That's.

[A]

That's it.

[C]

That's why, like in the book of Revelation, it's also written by John. It says, behold, I'm making all things new to what you said. And do we have time for a small little detail?

[A]

Come on, man, give Me it.

[C]

So I often tell people reading the Bible is. It's almost like a diamond where it's one thing, it can't be anything you want it to be, but you can turn it and see different facets of it. And so the biggest facets from this text of tetelestai in the links to the testimony, what we just hit. But there is a cool little detail that is easy to miss. So in Genesis 2, it says, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished. So if you go to the Greek translation of the Septuagint, it's not Tetelestai, but it's the same root word, same word where it's finished. And then what happens next? Sabbath. So God completes the work, it is finished. And then comes the Sabbath, Jesus dies on the cross, saying it is finished. And then what happens that night?

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Sabbath begins.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And so Jesus is ushering in the new creation. Well, through the work of the cross, where he is making all things.

[A]

Never heard. That's. That's brand new to me. That's what we gotta start doing this pod before our preaching.

[B]

It's consistent with the. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And then John says, in the beginning was the Word.

[C]

That's great.

[B]

And then at the completion of the. Of the creation, you know, it is. It is. The creation work was finished.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Jesus says tetelestai. It is finished. The salvation work was finished. The recreation.

[C]

That's right. The work needed to bring about the recreation. The new creation.

[A]

I've never heard that before. So let me say two other things. And then I want to. I want to show the greatest three minutes of preaching that may have ever happened. And I mean this here in a second. Hey, will you toss up that this is a little Bible nerd thing? I did get this into the sermon, but not at length. And people need to know this because this is interesting. Will you pull up that tersorium? So this is really interesting. This is a. This is a picture of it. So when it says they put a sponge full of the sour wine on the Hisa branch. This. I didn't know this until a couple years ago. Obviously, the person that's doing that is a Roman soldier. This is almost certainly what that dude would have been using. That thing right there is called a tersorium. That's what that is. This was so, like, when Roman soldiers got commissioned, they would be given little field kits, just like soldiers today. That was one of the things that were given. And it was a hygienic. It was a hygienic thing. It's a sponge on a stick. And this is real gross. But it literally. That was like Roman toilet paper. So when a guy. You can. You can go online and watch, you know, whatever. So when a guy probably don't want to watch. You don't want to. Well, that's not what I mean. I mean that. Sorry. There's, like. Let me. There's diagrams.

[B]

Clarify. What do you want us to watch?

[A]

You're not gonna watch a guy use it. There's diagrams of Roman latrines, and they'll show you where they would be stored. That came out wrong. I just finished preaching two sermons.

[B]

I got you, man.

[A]

I got you. Sorry. All right.

[C]

Middle schooler never leaves you.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. You can take the boy out of middle school. You can't take the middle school out of the boy. So what this is. Is, bro, think about this. So Jesus says, I thirst. A Roman soldier apparently heard that. And it says they put a sponge on a stick. He literally pulled out in a mocking way and put disgusting vinegar wine on his toilet paper. Tersorium. And then he put a used tersorium, probably in the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ. And so with the. Jesus cries out, you know, father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And then with the taste of a Roman soldier's bowel movement on his lips, he fulfills his own prayer, dying on the cross for their sins. And then he cries out, tetelestai. It is finished. Yeah, yeah. Now, Carlos, because we've talked about this before. Do you remember, off the top of your head, the three ways tetelesta was sometimes used in Roman culture? You want me to do it or you want to do it?

[B]

You should probably do it.

[A]

Let me do it real quick, because this is important just in case people miss it. So tetelstice was not a theological term. Like this was like, just a cultural term primarily used in three ways. One, it was used in a financial or a business context when somebody owed a debt, whenever the debt was completely paid, what the banker would essentially do, the person that the debt was owed to is they would take out a receipt. And some Bible scholars will say that they would scribble the word tetelestai on the receipt to signify that the debt had been paid, was also used in judicial context whenever a guilty convict's sentence had been fully served. Then they would inscribe on the deed of sentence, they would put, okay, this is done to tell us it's finished. You know, to Signify for the Roman court system. Amen. The penalty for this person's crime has, you know, been. Been. Been paid. Then the other one, that I won't go into the full thing. I did it in the sermon to go listen to sermon is. It would be used in military context. It would be like a battle cry. Whenever they had won a battle, you know, the battle cry. Part of what they would cry is to tell us, die. It is finished. So when Jesus cries out, it is finished. He's saying three things. He's saying, the debt for your sin has been fully paid. He's saying, the penalty for your sin has been fully satisfied. And the spiritual battle between sin, death, hell, and Satan has been fully and completely won. I've done it for you. So saying right now, in Christ, all those things are accomplished. Ladies and gentlemen, it is finished.

[B]

Yes, that right there. Because we hear this, and, you know, it's amazing. But, like, that should literally, literally change how you live your life today.

[A]

Everything.

[B]

Absolutely everything.

[A]

Everything. I will say this. Some people will sometimes what you. That's really important. Some people will sometimes be like, well, man, if you really believe that there's no work necessary for your salvation, then people are going to do whatever they want. It is important to make sure people understand we're not freed to sin. We are freed from sin. Grace frees us from sin, not to sin. And there's a whole. Whole theology of this John Bunyan guy who wrote Pilgrim's Progress. He was one time. I need. We need to move on. John Bunyan. One time, somebody was. They accused him of this because John Bunyan was a rough. Like, before he was saved. Like, drinker, fighter, brawler, rough around the edges dude. And so he was real heavy on preaching the grace of God. And somebody one time was like, john, you know, if you preach the free grace of God apart from anything that anybody ever does, people are gonna do whatever they want. And his response was, no, no. If I preach the free grace of God based on the finished work of Christ and not on anything they have to do or work for, he said they're gonna do whatever he wants.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And he was pointing out that it just. The love of the Father explodes in your heart when you understand it, and it makes you want to obey him.

[B]

It sets you free.

[A]

Sets you free.

[B]

Live free, brother.

[A]

Live free, brother.

[C]

Live free.

[B]

You got a video?

[A]

Yeah. Okay, let's. Y' all want to see the best, the greatest three minutes of preaching? Maybe.

[B]

I'm looking forward to it.

[A]

All right, so here's what this is. I almost finished sermon with this. And then we can talk about Mamdani and socialism and the warmth of collectivism. So here's what this is. So in the same way that like basketball players, they'll watch like Michael Jordan clips before they play games to get, you know, juiced. Preachers.

[B]

I'm kidding.

[A]

Stop.

[B]

I'm kidding. Huge fan.

[A]

Preachers. I'll watch preaching clips to get myself jacked before preaching. This for real, I think might be the greatest three minutes of preaching that has ever occurred that I've seen.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

I watch on average about a sermon a day, five days a week. This is the best three minutes of preaching I've ever seen. It's from a dude named Alistair Begg. You're gonna hear it in a second. He's Scottish. Makes him sound real awesome. Sounds like Braveheart's preaching the gospel to you. It's real great.

[B]

I've seen that movie.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you. Good. That's good. That's good, man. And then, and I will say it's totally unfair. People with British accents. It's like adds 20 points to their IQ. So here we go. This is the man on the middle cross, said I could come. Here we go.

[D]

Without the preaching of the cross, without preaching the cross to ourselves all day and every day, we will very, very quickly revert to faith plus works as the ground of our salvation.

[A]

Okay, pause real quick. Let me just say if you don't get. You need to get that in your soul. If you do not continually preach the reality of the finished work of Christ, you. You will. Your heart will default mode to believing that God's level of love for you depends on your level of obedience to him. Which is why Protestant reformer Martin Luther, he's got a famous little quote where he said, most necessary. Is it that we know this article well, talking about the gospel, teach it unto others and beat it into their heads continually. Cause you will. Your heart will default mode back to law instead of grace. So, all right, so here we go.

[D]

So that. To go to the old Fort Lauderdale question. If you were to die tonight and you were getting entry into heaven, what would you say? If you answer that and if I answer it in the first person, we've immediately gone wrong. Because I. Because I believed. Because I have faith. Because I am this. Because I am continuing loved ones. The only proper answer is in the third person. Because he. Because he. Think about the thief on the cross. What an immense. I can't wait to find that fellow one day to ask him how did that shake out for you because you were cussing the guy. Out with your friend. You'd never been in a Bible study. You never got baptized. You didn't know a thing about church membership, and yet you made it. You made it. How did you make it? That's what the angel must have said. You know, like, what are you doing here? Well, I don't know. What do you mean, you don't know? Well. Cause I don't know. Well, you know. Excuse me. Let me get my supervisor to go get the supervisor. Ranger. So just a few questions for you. First of all, are you clear on the doctrine of justification by faith? The guy said, I never heard of it in my life. And what about. Let's just go to the doctrine of scripture Immediately. This guy's just staring, and eventually, in frustration, he says, on what basis are you here? And he said, the man on the middle cross said I can come.

[A]

Now.

[D]

That is the only answer. That is the only answer. And if I don't preach the gospel to myself all day and every day, then I will find myself beginning to trust myself, trust my experience, which is part of my fallenness as a man.

[A]

Stop right there. The man on the middle cross said I could come.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. This is not of your own doing. It is the gift of God.

[C]

Amen.

[B]

It seems to me like we know what Jesus did on the cross, and yet scripture is packed with different illustrations. Like, what does it actually mean for you and I today? And this is what, historically speaking, has been known as the multiple theories of atonement.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

And so I'm curious. Pastor Paul.

[A]

Yeah. Paul did it for us.

[B]

Chat G. Paul C. Tell us about that. In fact, the cross, what we're talking about right now, is also known as something has been described as a multifaceted jewel with different sides, right? And so, like, when you, every single side has, like, a beautiful explanation of what that actually means for you and I today. Paul, take it away. Well, hey, Lifter Nation, let me share something exciting with you. We want to invite you to the most important night of the year for our church. That is our night of prayer and worship. This is a night where we come believing that God still heals, he still restores, and he still moves. And so on January 21, from 7 to 8:30pm that's central standard Time, we'll gather to worship and pray with faith for miracles, for breakthrough, for the next generation, and for the one more God is still reaching. And so this is a Night to bring your need, your burden, your unanswered prayer and trust God to do what only he can do. We are believing as a church for chains to break, for hearts to be renewed and and lives to be changed in the presence of God. And so to hear more about this event, text the word event to 20411. Or you can visit Lakepoint Church Event and select Night of Prayer and Worship. If you are in the DFW area, or maybe you live in a different state or city and you're willing to drive or fly and come visit, join us in person at any of our seven campuses. Or you can also worship with us by joining church online via YouTube, Facebook or Lakepoint Live. Hey, come expecting, come hungry, come believing. Mark your calendar January 21st and be a part of what God wants to do.

[C]

Yeah, sometimes people call these theories of the atonement. I don't like actually the word theories because it makes it sound like, oh, we can't know for sure. It's like, no, I'm like, they're the themes or pictures that the idea of a mosaic or mosaic is made up of multiple pictures. And we see these pictures repeatedly said in Scripture. And if atonement is a new word for people listening or watching, it's an English word that originally came from the phrase at one ment, which really just that means to bring back into unity of how do we set aside an offense so that reconciliation can occur? And so obviously we know that Jesus Christ, the son of God, died on the cross. But the question is, okay, but what was actually happening? Like, what did that accomplish? What was actually happening there? And so you see multiple pictures, multiple facets that you've said, as you said, of that diamond in Scripture. So I just want to listen. I'm going to do these pretty quickly and maybe we can maybe have some questions at the end. But I'll just try to roll through these because there's a bunch of them. But I have six that I'll give. There's more than that, but I'll give six of the main ones throughout church history. The first one is called the moral influence. Picture or motif is the idea that Christ changes us. So what it says is the cross displays God's love so powerfully that it moves sinners to repent and transformation to love other people. It's like we get a picture of this, for example, in 1st John 4, in this is love, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our Sins propitiation is the idea of God putting away his anger through a sacrifice. And then it goes on. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. A second picture we see in scriptures was called Christus Victor. The idea that Christ wins for us. What it says is Jesus's death and resurrection defeat Satan, sin, death, and the powers holding humanity captive. So the cross wasn't just a payment, it was a conquest.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

It's like in the book of Colossians, for example, it says, he Christ disarmed the rulers and authorities. And when it says that, it's not talking about specifically human authorities, that's talking about Satan and demonic forces. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame. That's referencing what the Romans would do whenever they conquered an enemy. They would lead them through the streets just to shame them and dishonor them. So it says he.

[A]

That's the same passage where it's talks about he always leads us in triumphal procession.

[C]

Oh, that's a different. So there's two places. That's one. That's another one you're thinking of is Is Corinthians. Yeah, Corinthians. And so it says, but God, you.

[B]

Said Chris is Victor.

[C]

Chris is Victor.

[B]

Explain what that means for people that don't speak about.

[C]

It's the idea of Christ and that he is victor, that he is conquering.

[B]

Jesus is a warrior that fights for years.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And then so the idea is like, so Christ changes us, but then also Christ wins for us. He conquered for us a third one. Ransom or redemption. The idea of Christ pays what was owed by us. So this one says, humanity is in bondage to S and its consequences. So Christ gives his life as a ransom to redeem us, to purchase us and rescue us from sin and those consequences. So you see this in places like Mark 10:45. The Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. Galatians 3:13. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. A fourth one is satisfaction, the idea that Christ upholds the honor of God that was offended by us. So this one says that human sin infinitely dishonors an infinite God, but that Christ obedient life and sacrificial death upholds God's honor and it infinitely satisfies God's demand for justice. So for example, Romans 3:23, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory, which is also another synonym for the honor of God. Proverbs 17:15 says, he who justifies the wicked is an abomination to the Lord. So there's this issue of, like, how could God justify the wicked who have infinitely dishonored him? Well, how he does it is he sends the God man, Jesus Christ, and because he's the. His sacrifice infinitely upholds the justice of God while also allowing us to be eternally saved.

[A]

That's Romans. He is both just and the justifier of the ungodly.

[C]

I had written that down as a possible one to go into. Didn't know if we would have to be. Romans 3, 25, 26 Beautiful, beautiful verses. There a fifth one then I'll get to. I should have said this beginning. There's different themes and pictures, but I do think one is at the heart of all of them. And I'm saving it for last. I'm saving the big one for last.

[A]

Before, as he keeps going. Let me just say this, Carlos, what you're doing right now is more pastorally significant than people realize. Because what I've learned is that people need one of the, for lack of a better term, theories of the atonement. People need one or the other preach to them, depending on what they have experienced. So, like, dude, I'll be really honest if you like. In America, we honestly don't talk about Christus Victor a whole lot. And here's why. Because America, secular society, we don't talk about demonic powers, spiritual enslavement stronghold, we don't talk about that stuff. So then when people don't feel that, they don't end up feeling the need for like, oh, dude, I need a spiritual warrior that can bind the strongman and destroy sin, death and Satan and set me free. Because we don't talk about that. But if you go to sub Saharan Africa and it's a very spiritist culture, and people are acutely aware of the reality of demonic possession, oppression, enslavement, while all of a sudden Christus Victor lands like a nuclear bomb.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

So you need each of these atonement theories differently based on where somebody's at. By the way. Last thing I'll say here, and then I'm going to give it back to you. Honestly, dude, one of the best books. Every time I mention his name, people shoot at me. I don't care. One of the best books I've ever read, and I'm not joking, is Mark Driscoll's book Death by Love. That literally the entire book is. Each chapter is, here's one atonement theory. And then it's him writing a personal pastoral letter to somebody in his congregation that needs the reality of that atonement theory applied to their soul. Literally one of the best books I've ever read.

[C]

And just so, you know, put that.

[A]

In the show notes.

[B]

We'll definitely put it in there.

[C]

And this is scriptural thing, because when Paul, for example, writes his letters, he's dealing very specific, practical, everyday problem things that they're dealing with. But almost always, where does he start with the Gospel and with one of these motifs or pictures. And then he draws it out, and so he starts with it and then he gets to the practical implications. So even, like going to a different one of the idea of redemption or ransom, of literally purchasing you back. Sometimes when I'm talking to people and they're definitely saved, but they are just living willfully in an ongoing sin. I'm like, basically right now, it's like I give them sometimes the picture. It's like, imagine being a slave that you're set free, but you decide to put the chains back on, even though you've been freed and you could take them off at any moment, you're choosing to be enslaved. So these have very much pastoral effect if you use them well. So a fifth one that I'll do briefly, and then I was gonna camp out for a few minutes on the one that I think is at the heart of all of them. So a fifth one is recapitulation. Fancy word, but basically means that Christ succeeds for us. So to recapitulate means basically kind of, you go back to the beginning and you do it over. So this one is the idea of Adam.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So the idea of Christ succeeds where Adam failed. So humanity fell on Adam by disobedience. But Christ becomes the new Adam. He lives the fully obedient life that Adam could not. So he undoes Adam's failure and he restores humanity by basically, he restarts the human story. So like 1 Corinthians 15. For as an Adam, all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. So again, I'm just the reason I keep going pictures. I don't want you to think, oh, these are just like. Well, we think this might have been like. No, we see these things in Scripture. This last.

[A]

So before you do this last one, just list real quick, just for clarity.

[C]

That's good.

[A]

Just list the five you've already said here.

[C]

Moral influence. Christ changes us. Christ is victor. Christ wins for us. Ransom, redemption. Christ pays what was owed by us. Satisfaction. Christ upholds the honor of God. Offended by us and recapitulation. Christ succeeds for us.

[A]

Okay, and the last one, this is the biggie.

[C]

The last one's the biggie is penal substitution. Christ dies for us. And I'll get to this in a minute, but I'll go and say now I believe this is actually the backbone and foundation for all the other ones that I just mentioned. I'll talk about why here in a second. But here's what penal substitution says. All to sin deserves a penalty or punishment. Like, I think we understand this as humans. Like when you break a law, you deserve some kind of a penalty or punishment for that. Well, Jesus willingly substituted himself for us because we've all sinned. Romans 3:23 fall off sin and fallen short of the glory of God. And we deserve a punishment for that. Jesus willingly substitute himself for us and takes the penalty our sins deserve, which is God's wrath, so that we can be forgiven. So the idea of penal is penalty substitution is that Christ does this in in our place. So instead of God's wrath having be poured out in us, he receives it in himself. So where you see this in Scripture, 1st Peter 2:24, He Himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, which is referring to the cross, 1st Peter 3:18. For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous, for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God. And then prophesying about Jesus in Isaiah 53, 5, 6, he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. Upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace. And with his wounds we are healed. We have all gone astray, everyone to his own way, and the Lord has laid on him, referring to Jesus, the iniquity of us all. I would argue that this is actually at the heart of all the other theories. So let's just think about a few of them. The moral influence one that we already talked about 1st John 4:10, 11. If God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. But what was the backbone of it? In the the previous verse it says not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be a propitiation. The idea of turning away wrath. Why? Because Christ received it. So the idea of how we could love others is because Christ received our punishment in our place. The Christmas Victor one Because this one is kind of caught on recently. And by the way, I'm like you, I love it too. This is one that's neglected. But some people have tried to say, oh no, this is actually the main one instead of substitutionary atonement. But what people miss when they say that is referring back to Colossians where it talks about how Christ triumphed over to the. If you go back to the previous couple verses, it says how he did that. And here's what it says in Colossians. It says, you who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all of our trespasses. Well, how did he do that? By canceling the record of death that stood against us with its legal demands.

[A]

Bingo.

[C]

And how did he do that? This he set aside. By nailing it to the cross. Yeah.

[A]

Penal substitution right there through the hands.

[C]

And feet of Jesus. Exactly. So we say that because recently penal substitution, missionary atonement has been attacked.

[A]

It always is.

[C]

And derided.

[A]

It always is.

[C]

But it is actually, I would say, is the backbone in the heartbeat of.

[A]

All you lose theories.

[C]

Exactly, exactly.

[B]

So I think so substitution, something takes the place of something else. I think my favorite illustration in Scripture of that is the story of Barabbas. And this is really interesting because I learned it recently. So if somebody's not familiar with the story, Barabbas is this man who is guilty of. Of rebellion, theft, and murder. And Pontius Pilate basically sets free Barabbas instead of Jesus because the crowd ask for Barabbas to be set free and Jesus to be crucified. And so I did not know this, but the name Barabbas has a meaning. And so there's two parts. It's Bar, which means son of, and Abba, which means father. And so the meaning of the name of Barabbas is the son of a father. So here you have a guilty son of a father next to a innocent son of a father. That's Jesus. And there has to be a substitution happening for Barabbas to be set free. And so when the people ask for Barabbas to be set free, Barabbas is not being set free because Pontius was gracious. He was being set free because somebody else was a substitute for him. Somebody else took his place. And, man, that's an amazing picture. What happens with you and I, we're not set free because of our own capacity or an effort. Effort or because of chance. We are the only way. We are set free if somebody. There's the penal part of it. If somebody pays the penalty in our place, and that's Jesus, and he sets us free.

[C]

And this last one, even though it's so derided. It's so important, it actually amplifies the love of God. Like, naturally, none of the others do. Because the cross is a picture of how much God hates sin, that he hates it so much that it took the death of the son of God, Jesus Christ, to pay for it. And it's also a picture of how much God loves you. And so we have to remember, the cross did not make God love us. He already loved us. It says, for God so loved the world that he sent his son. The cross is a picture of that fact that he was willing to actually endure his own wrath to save you. And so even go back to Matt, too, like this idea of man, at once I was a child of wrath.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Right. But then now, because Christ took my. The raft that I deserve, in him, my place, I am now a child of God and a child of his love.

[A]

The way that you got it. And dude, here's the thing. The way that a Christian has to mobilize this in their life is until the love of the Father explodes in your heart, you will never have the power for obedience and sanctification. Sanctification is a big Bible word that just means the process of becoming holy. So it's like the thing that I'll tell, like, if I'm discipling guys, my rooted group or whatever, the thing I'll tell them is like, hey, man, if you feel like the Christian life is just like, it's too hard and complicated and I can't remember all the rules. It's too difficult. What I'll tell them is, hey, man, like, honestly, just take a little season and stop thinking about all that stuff. Just fall in love with Jesus and everything else is going to fall into place. It's like, if you have. That's why Jesus said, if you love me, you will obey what I command. That's not a threat. If you love me, you'll be able to command. No, no, it was a promise. He was like, hey, man, if you love me, you're gonna obey what I command. Yes, just love me.

[C]

And I know we gotta get to Mandani and socialism and all the things, but it's what I often tell people is like, if you feel like you're lacking passion for God, you don't start with him like, oh, I'm gonna like, will this passion. It's like, actually start with his passion for you.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And when I say passion, I mean that intentionally is actually. Passion has historically been used as a word for Jesus Christ's. Sufferings. So if you're lacking love for God, it's not now you gotta try to witness yourself. You actually take a moment, you can even like, think through these different things, these scriptures, and just reflect on God's love for you shown in the death and accomplishment of Jesus Christ on the cross.

[A]

Y.

[B]

So this is important because anytime we talk about penal substitution, and by the way, we're going to hit this question and then we're going to move on, people will ask. This is the most popular question that people, you know, normal people will ask. And this happened to me. And now in college, I had, I took a religion class or theology class, and the professor was talking about this same topic. And I remember I quoted it, Isaiah 53. I, I brought it up and I, you know, this is basically, there's a prophecy there that talks about Jesus and this is what it says. It was the will of the Lord to crush him. And I was, we were talking about the same topic and my professor at the time said, oh, no, no, no, no. You're implying that God the Father is a, a divine abuse abuser. And, and, and Jesus is an innocent child. And so that's, that's divine. Child abuse. Penal substitution is not okay. It sounds like God is too violent, too eager, and he's unleashing his wrath on an innocent son. Well, what say you?

[A]

Yeah, I say two things. One, the Trinity solves that problem. So it's like, hey man, that's really it, dude. It's like, hey man, in one sense, first of all, you're never gonna understand the Trinity. You can't understand the Trinity. It's like, if God's the size of the Pacific Ocean and our minds are the size of a Coke can, there's gonna be some things that don't fit. Fit. The Trinity is one of those things. Like literally in human history, no one has ever come up with an analogy that is not a trinitarian heresy. That's like actually a thing. Okay, so number one, you can't understand a Trinity, but in one sense, what you got to get is at the cross when it says it was the will of the Lord to crush him. Well, it was the will of the Lord to crush who? The Lord?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's what you have to understand is. No, no. God willingly went to the cross. Him himself.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And willing. And then Jesus also says, nobody takes my life from me. I lay it down of my own accord. So this was a willful action on the behalf of the Son to drink the cup of the wrath cup of God's wrath that should have come to, to us.

[C]

Those are the two big categories I was about to go to as well as you. Now when I say what I'm going to say is going to sound harsh, but I'm really referring more to like professors or more like academics when they say stuff like this. But when they say stuff like this, I'm like, the problem isn't their theology that they have a crappy theology of the atonement, it's that they have a crappy theology of the Trinity. Trinity, yeah. That's great because a lot is. Because when they begin talking this, they're like, oh yeah, the Father has his own mind and will and the Son has his own mind and will and the Spirit does too. I'm like, well now you have three gods. That's called tritheism. And so we can't think of like, oh, the Father had his will and the son had his own. And the Father says, well guess what? Because I'm the Father and you're the Son, you have to go do this. No, like there is one mind and will in God. So it was really what you were just saying. And then what also you said is so important. It was a willing voluntary act. Whereas abusive is coercive and one sided. This is willingly laying down his life. So yeah.

[B]

Any other thoughts on that?

[A]

Penal. Let me do. I'll just ask you guys one question. Let's move on. Why is it, if you guys don't want to talk about it, that's fine. Why is it that every time somebody starts apostasizing, the first thing they fudge on is they're like, ah, penal substitution. I'm not sure. Anybody got a theory. It always happened. Rob Bell did it.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

In the early 2000s. I've seen a bajillion guys that ended up leaving the fish faith. They, it starts with I don't know about penal substitution. Anybody got a theory?

[B]

Paul, what you got? He's got.

[A]

Paul's got a theory. Didn't want to say it. Are you, are you getting ready to be salty? Let me just say this for listeners. I'm not joking for, for listeners, when you see a prominent Bible teacher start questioning penal substitution, it does not mean that they automatically immediately need to be canceled. I do think that is the moment you need to immediately be like, whoa, oh, I need to watch out on this guy. Personal opinion. I've seen this movie too many times. It starts with questioning penal substitution, then it goes to questioning hell. Then all of a Sudden evangelism is like, ah, you know, people from other faith. So then it goes to the exclusivity of Christ. They deny that. Then, dude, it's the same pattern every time. Then all of a sudden it's like, ah, you know, inerrancy of scripture, I'm not sure. And then it's just on down the line and eventually they're like. Like they're Rob Bell, you know, universalists.

[C]

Yep. I've thought about it. You go, if you guys got a.

[A]

Quick one, because we need to move on.

[C]

Here's what I'll say briefly, maybe we can revisit another time. I think it's worth maybe revisiting another time, which is on the one. I would say, yeah, it seems like it starts there, but I would actually say what I've typically seen. It was Bell. It was with others who I won't name names for right now since we can't do a deeper dive on it, which is they question. But they're also abandoning historic doctrines about God. So even, like I mentioned about their views about the Trinity or like other people have talked about this, usually it's also, they say, oh, God doesn't have complete foreknowledge. The future is open. So they begin pulling out a lot of the classical threads of Christian thought. And it's kind of like a sweater where if you pull it too many, the whole thing begins to unravel a thousand percent. And so with that, too, is you. And the reason I brought those up is because these are historic things that Christians have believed for thousands of years.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

So I think part of what happens in addition to not taking the Bible seriously is they don't take Christian history seriously. And they think, oh, this, you know, let's just start throwing this away and throwing that away instead of asking, hey, why have people for like the last 17, 1800 years believed all these classical things in terms of the main pillars of our faith about who God is away? Like, they don't stop and ask, why? Why should I not do that? They just do it and they lose their ground in history. And then they lose all this stuff. And so they pull enough threads and the whole sweater comes kind of apart.

[B]

I'm curious what your theory is.

[A]

I think it's usually people canonize their feelings so their feelings stand in authority of the Scripture instead of the Scripture standing in authority over their feelings. Because here's really what it always boils down. Think about all of them, okay? Penal, substitution, hell, the exclusivity of Christ all the things, what it really boils down to is that feels mean to me. And God's not mean.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

I mean, seriously, that literally all of them. That's. That's what it boils down to. It feels mean to me. And my God's never mean. And my response to that is always like, actually, you're right, man. The God that you invented in your head is never mean by your own standards, but that's not who God is. You're just inventing one in your head.

[C]

Can I add two things real fast?

[A]

Yeah, let's do it real fast.

[C]

Real fast. One would be really just a different way of saying what you just said, which is when I teach this, actually, sometimes our residents and staff, I'll talk about how to do theology. Well, you've got to do it from the top down, not the bottom up. And for about the last two or three hundred years, since they enlightened me, done theology from the bottom up. Oh, I'm a person. I know. I. This justice is like this to me. Fairness is like this to me. Oh, Since I'm creating the image of God, then God must be like this, neglecting the idea that the scripture says God's ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. And so we got to remember that while we are creating the image of God and we are like God, that he is in a totally different existential plane than we are. And so I do think a lot of that is tied together, is like, oh, well, this seems wrong from my point of view. So God must be wrong. Or, you know, so on and so forth if he's like this. Another thing is. And I think this is maybe a little bit more niche, but I do think apologetics is amazing. But sometimes I do think you can accidentally follow apologetics into heresy.

[A]

Dude, that is a fact.

[C]

And it's like, oh, well, as I'm engaging with people, people don't like the idea of penal substitutionary atonement. Oh, people don't like the idea that God could be all powerful and all knowing and evil exist. Oh, so I'll just water that down to make it, oh, people don't like hell. So you know what? I'll just say that annihilationism is more easy to swallow. So let's go there instead of the.

[A]

Dude, this dawned on me recently. And then we're going to move on. Talk to Mom. Donnie, this dawned on me recently. You know what that is? Is this reverse justification. It's. What it is is. It's them Trying to justify Jesus to mankind when biblical justifications. No, no. Mankind needs to be justified to Jesus. And what people do is they'll reverse the justification. Oh, man, I need to justify. I need to rescue God from, you know, the character as he's depicted in the Bible so that he's justified before men. Hey, very frankly. Frankly, God doesn't need to be justified by anybody. No, you need to be justified before him.

[C]

Yes, that's good.

[B]

That's a word. Hey, man, we're talking about Mom. Donnie, let me, let me, let me.

[A]

Let me make it a little less hard, all right?

[B]

We talk about Jesus saying it is finished. And obviously, as Christians, man, we are reminded that's our ultimate hope.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And what he has accomplished at the cross, not our own effort, not our own religion, not on any political system either. And today you look at our culture and you see different voices rising up, and some of these voices are offering a different kind of hope. Pastor Josh. And that's what seems to be happening in New York with Zora, with, you know, something that people are getting really excited about. At least some people in New York.

[A]

Listen, let me just. I don't want to, you know, so I'll just. For listeners, what I try to do is attack ideas, not people are part of parties. However, sometimes there's like, actual partisan realities that it's just like, hey, dude, we just want to be unfiltered and honest about it. Dude, I looked at this yesterday. Newest research by Pew. So this is a. This is a reputable, bro. 60% of people who identify as Democrats now have a favorable view of socialism. Let me say it again. 60%. I'm just. Pause for effect. 60%. So what we're getting ready to show is, you know, you've got an Islamic socialist. And honestly, the more he talks, the more I'm like, also here's all socialism is, is communism before it gets guns. The language he uses. That's not a joke. Like, I've read some history books. All socialism is. It's the exact same idea. Us, it's communism before he gets guns. The more he talks, bro, this guy is like actually dyed in the wool communist ideals. So you got an Islamic socialist elected, by the way, in the Same City where 9, 11 happened about 24 years ago. Little insane. And in his inauguration speech this week, he said some things that sent chills down the spines of people who are paying attention.

[B]

Attention.

[A]

Do we want to look at it?

[B]

We got a video.

[A]

All right, let's look at this real quick. So this is mom, this is Zoramdani. This is at his. This is at his swearing in. Oh, by the way, sworn in on what, Carlos, before we look at this.

[B]

Not the Bible, but Quran.

[A]

First time in American history.

[B]

In New York City.

[A]

In New York City.

[B]

New York City, that's right.

[A]

So has it happened before?

[B]

I think it's been done like four or five other times.

[A]

Yeah. All right.

[B]

By some recent.

[A]

Other people, but yeah, interesting, but definitely.

[C]

The most consequential city.

[B]

New York City's a little bit different. Yes.

[A]

Right?

[C]

A little different.

[A]

Yeah. So let me just say something on that. Can I say something, please? So whenever we talk about. Whenever we talk about. You talk about Christian nationalism, whatever you want to call it, whenever you talk about. Christians should 100% want their government to legislate from a Christian moral perspective. Why? Because Christianity is true and everything else isn't. All right, so that's why Romans 13 says that the role of the government is to be a terror to bad conduct and to reward good conduct. The obvious natural question that any reader of Romans 13 should then ask is, well, who gets to define good and evil? The obvious answer of Romans 13 is the living God, Jesus Christ. Okay, now before we watch this, go ahead and start pulling this up. We're going to watch this. So this dude gets sworn in on a Quran. Anytime we talk about what we just said on this podcast, we get a million people that are like, you guys are arguing for a theocracy. Now, I just want to point something out. In one sense that's not true, but I just want to say something in one sense. Yep, you're right. And here's what I would say, okay? Every human government is some form of a theocracy. The question is, who's Theo? All right, so if we're going to say that along with a Declaration of Independence that, you know, that all men are created, are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. Okay, we agree. The question is, what's his name? All right, if we're saying that there is a creator that endows us with certain inalienable rights. Rights. The question is, all right, what's his name? Is his name Jesus? Is his name Allah, even?

[B]

They're not the same.

[A]

They're not the same. Even. Even in a secular democracy, that's still a theocracy. Yes, the people are Theo. In that scenario, the people are functionally God. It's just pure will of the masses. So this is what Christians need to understand before we watch this. What Christians need to understand Is you've been getting this play run on you for forever, where anytime you say you advocate for your beliefs in the public square, people are like, oh, you're advocating for a theocracy? That person is advocating for the exact same thing. They just want somebody besides the one true God to be at the top of the system. So here's the big idea. When you remove God, the actual true and living God, Jesus Christ, when you remove God from being over the government, the government becomes God. Okay? So. So let's. So that said dude gets sworn in on Quran in New York City. Now, bro, this language he uses right here. Bone chilling. All right, check this out.

[C]

This is two.

[A]

Two days ago or so. We will draw this city closer together. We will replace the frigidity of rugged individualism with the warmth of collectivism. Okay. Boom. Pause. Well, I just want. We will. Now listen. That'll slip past you. You. We will replace the frigidity of rugged individualism with the warmth of collectivism. Bookmark that in your head. We're coming back to it now. Watch the rest of what he says. If our campaign demonstrated that the people.

[C]

Of New York yearn for solidarity, then let this government foster it.

[A]

Because no matter what you eat, how.

[C]

You pray, or where you come from.

[A]

From the words that most define us are the two we all share. New Yorkers. Okay.

[B]

Now, by the way, that's a diverse group of people over there. That's interesting, huh? It's just, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, There's a lot there that ties into a lot of the.

[B]

I'll let you do your thing.

[A]

All right, bro, so here's. So here's the thing. That's kind of thing that'll slip past people. It's just a real quick statement. Okay? The fr. We're going to replace the frigidity of rugged individualism with the warmth of collectivism. Number one. I just want to say, well, hey, brother, rugged individualism built the greatest civilization that humanity has ever seen. And let me just say, the warmth of collectivism has killed 100 million people in the last century.

[C]

And let's just start practical. In any place, collectivism has flourished. It's not hot because they literally cannot feel any heaters. It's cold. They can't have the money or the ability actually to heat buildings kind of a thing. So I'm not sure where this warmth is coming from. Just practically, but different things. Sorry, that's my history major coming out of me and just saying, dude, that's right. They haven't read any History books.

[A]

So let me. If so, for people who don't know what the quote unquote the warmth of collectivism is. Let me read you, let me read you some quotes to help you understand what he is saying. By the way, lest you think, oh, why are they making a big deal out of this? This is one mayor in New York City. I want to remind you where I start. Started right now, for lack of a better term, warmth towards socialism is skyrocketing in our country, especially with like Gen Z and down. And again, I want to remind you of this. The most recent polls are that 60% of people identify as Democrat are favorable towards socialism. So here's a question, Paul Carlos, what is the warmth of collectivism? Well, let me read you a few quotes. The individual is nothing. The collective is everything. Joseph Stalin the interests of the individual must be subordinate to the interests of the collective. That's Mao. Everything in the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state. And by the way, the state is the collective. That was Benito Mussolini. And then you have will replace rugged individualism with collectivism. Zoran Mamdadi. He's quoting like actual communists who have tried to institute actual communism. All right, so here's the difference between quote unquote rugged individualism and the warmth of collectivism. Here's the question. So by the way, Christians have to learn to think and apply their worldview to governance. Okay, if, here's why. Because if godly people don't, don't godless people will. Okay, so he's doing it. We better learn how.

[B]

All right, and by the way, Pastor Josh, because I, when people hear this, they might be asking, wait, but why is a pastor talking about socialism? Isn't that like, like this is. Doesn't sound like Bible. What does the Bible have to do with socialism?

[A]

A lot. Yeah, a lot. So first of all, let me just say a few, few things. So first of all, so here's the question. The, the question is I, I wrote this down. I want to make sure I get it right because it's really important. Important. The question is, so in collectivism we sacrifice the rights of the individual for the good of the many, the collective. In individualism, you protect the individual, the individual, human rights from the tyranny of the state or the many. So this is the question. Whose rights do we protect and which rights rights do we infringe upon? Okay, Are we trying to protect the quote unquote rights of the many or are we protecting the individuals from the tyranny of the collective? Okay, so this is what you get. Now you ask the question, hey, Josh, what is this? You know, what is social. What's this got to do with the Bible? Well, a whole lot. First of all, the entire Old Testament is based on the concept of personal property. Right. Rights, socialism. Obviously, the end game of socialism is you'll own nothing and be happy. It's the state owns everything and the state redistributes all possessions, you know, equally, so that, you know, ostensibly we can have equality of outcomes for people. So it's, you know, totally undermines and eliminates personal property rights. Okay, well, can I remind you of something called the 10th Commandment? Like literally the 10th Commandment in the 10 Commandments, kind of a big deal is you shall not covet your neighbors. And then it lists a bunch of stuff. So literally into the decalogue. One of the ten Commandments is the assumption of personal property rights over against the state being able to infringe those things. Okay, so that's number one. Now, before I go on.

[B]

And don't steal too.

[A]

Other thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Don't steal is another one. It implies ownership.

[A]

Yes. Now the question that people ask is, is it stealing if it's the government? Yeah, yeah. Governments can commit theft.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. What collectivism does is it simply. It doesn't eliminate greed. It centralizes and localizes it.

[A]

Right, that's great. Yeah.

[C]

Instead of it being kind of spread, by the way, greed is not good. But like, oh, there's too much greed. We should go this way. I'm like, you just basically centralized it.

[A]

That's. That's right. Like, that's great.

[C]

And get rid of it. You centralized it because, by the way, for fun, I almost did this as a picture, but I thought. I was afraid it would take us too. Is just go Google the houses of Stalin and Ma and Maduro, who got removed today, by the way. Like, just go look at their houses and all these socialistic places and just let me know if greed was eliminated.

[A]

They're doing just the ass or if.

[C]

They just did a really good job of centralizing it in the hands of a very few people.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

So go ahead, keep going.

[A]

So, dude, here's a big. I mean, you want to go back to it and again, almost always. Now it's a little different with. With Mom, Donnie. Although I got. I got thoughts on this. Is the vast majority, if not all of communist regimes, they're atheistic. So again, the big idea is once you remove God from the picture, there is no authority higher than the Government. And once that happens, you remove God. The government becomes God. The government becomes the highest authority in the system. So then people, the government starts acting like God. We'll protect you, we'll provide for you. We'll own the cattle on a thousand hills and we will distribute it as we see for fit. Okay, so remove, remove God. And. And the government becomes God. There a couple other things I'll say here and then we can just, you know, we can riff. I want to know if you guys got any thoughts here. I will just say this. So as you watch this, what you're going to notice in socialism and socialism light, you'll even see this in California. You're seeing this right now. Whenever wealth red wealth redistributive policies get like max boosted in absurd ways. I want you to remember two axioms. So every Christian listening, you need to remember two axioms. Number one, one, progressives think in terms of solutions. Conservatives think in terms of trade offs. This is really important. Okay, so what you'll notice is when progressives see problems, what they tend to do is just try to think of immediate straight line solutions. Oh, some people don't have enough. Well, this is really obvious. We'll just take a whole lot from the people who have more and then get it to the people who have less. Duh, problem solved. Well, here's the problem is they never stop to think about second and third order unforeseen consequences. So for instance, why is it that literally this week half a trillion dollars in net worth left the state of California after they announced that they would be essentially doing a 5% wealth confiscation on the super wealthy? Okay, so progressives, they just think in terms of straight line solutions without ever thinking in terms of second and third order consequences. Wait a second. If we start like excessively taxing the people who create jobs, build businesses and generate the most wealth, they might leave our state and then the last state becomes worse than the first. Okay, Whereas conservatives, what conservatives tend to do is they. Conservatives tend to think in terms of those trade offs. The biblical category, food. This is just wisdom. Yeah, when the Bible uses the word wisdom, it just means the ability to maneuver the world in light of its complexities. Okay? So that's number one. The second axiom that you understand is you watch this with mom Donnie. You watch in the next few years if he actually executes the policies that he says he's going to. The thing you got to remember is with governments you tend to get more of what you incentivize and less of what you penalize. Okay? This is really important. Okay, so, for instance, whenever you get high welfare states or high welfare cities, what ends up happening is you're not solving poverty, you're incentivizing it. Okay? So this is one thing that conservatives generally, because conservatism, not perfectly. There's like a loose correlation between Christian theology and conservative. Conservative ideology. Conservative. They tend to think in terms of when legislation happens. They tend to think like, huh, what behavior will this incentivize? Okay, so. So here's what you got to get is like, in the cities, real progressive cities are like, dude, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna max boost. This is like what mom, Donnie's saying he's gonna do. We're gonna max boost, you know, homeless care. Error. Well, what doesn't end up happening is you solving homelessness. What does end up happening is you incentivizing it. And so you end up with cities overrun with more homelessness. You do not end up solving homelessness. Why? Because with governments, you end up giving, getting more of what you incentivize and less of what you penalize. That's why. Like, there's that old axiom. The best argument against progressive policies is progressive citizens. Cities. That's why you're seeing what's happening in San Francisco. All the cities. Yeah, that's it, man.

[C]

San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, all the same thing.

[A]

They never stop to think. They just think, oh, what problem are we trying to solve? Straight line solution. They never stop to think, huh, what behaviors are we incentivizing? Because this last thing. And then we'll. I want to tell a story about Charles Spurgeon, and we'll lock her down. Dang it. I forgot what I was gonna say. What was I gonna say? Say, I can't even remember.

[C]

I got a few things, if you want. If you take a minute to think.

[A]

About it, go for it.

[C]

Yeah, I wrote down three things when we were getting ready for this in terms of just about socialism. Just three things. It isn't biblical, it doesn't work, and it's incredibly stupid and harmful.

[A]

That's a pretty strong argument.

[C]

It's a pretty strong. Let me just go through each of those and maybe even go through maybe some rebuttals of what people often say it isn't biblical because you guys laid out some things about private property. But they'll say, well, like, what about in the New Testament? It seems way more collectivist. Like, everybody was sharing. But. But what you don't neglect was even in there. Usually when people think about that, they're thinking about Acts 4, where it talks about how there was no needy among them, but they shared everything. If you go to Acts 5 in the story of Ananias and Sapphira, a lot of times we say, oh, they were struck dead and judged because they didn't give everything and they were selfless. That's actually not it. It's because they lied. Cause actually, if you go to Acts 5, he says, when. Yeah, why did you keep back part of it? But then he says, what remained unsowed, did it not remain the same? No, that's not what it says.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Did it not remain the churches? No, it. Did it not remain your own?

[A]

Bro, that's great. That's a great catch.

[C]

And after it was sowed, was it not at your disposal? So Peter is actually going like overboard to try to make the point of you didn't have to do this. Whereas in socialism, it's coerced. Actually, what you see here is it's private property and generosity is to the individual. It's not force. So then, for example, if you go to 2 Corinthians 9, there is this idea where Paul is collecting money for people who are in greater need than the people he's writing to, but he specifically says he does not want them to give under compulsion, because God loves a cheerful giver. So socialism is unbiblical. It also just doesn't work. Like, if you go to any place where this is actually.

[A]

Because it destroys the incentive structure.

[C]

It destroys it totally.

[A]

Yeah, it destroys the incentive structure.

[C]

So obviously you got like the ussr, but also people get like Venezuela, where it was just outside at one point. Was it?

[B]

We're literally seeing a case study right now on unfold.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So it's funny because it's interesting. New York City just elected a socialist leader while Venezuela was just liberated from one. And there's a. There's a photo real quick on. On that note, Paul Babylon B posted this, which I thought was interesting.

[A]

Alistair B.

[B]

So Democrats confused. Why Venezuelans cheering Downfall of nice warm collectivism.

[A]

I love the Babylon B guys are hilarious.

[B]

So just, you know, and, and you know, this is just a real quick on what you're saying. I think Venezuela is a. It's wild that this same week those two things are happening again. Mamdani doing this. If you know the history of Venezuela, it was at some point it was one of the wealthiest nations in Latin America because of its oil. It's even today Venezuela is known to have the largest proven oil reserve in the world. And in 2006, Hugo Chavez, who no longer lives. Now this is Nicolas Maduro. He wanted to usher. He was not always socialist. He had a. He won as president, but then in his second term, he wanted to usher what he called at some point, socialism of the 21st century for Venezuela. And he ran his re election campaign on that promise. And this is what he argued, he argued at the time, this is 2006. Venezuela is a wealthy country. He argued capitalism led to poverty. And he saw socialism as the solution, framing it as a choice between capitalism being hell and socialism being heaven on earth. And he won. So that people bought it. It's like, this is new.

[A]

This always happens.

[B]

Nothing new under the sun.

[C]

He campaigned on inequality and reform. Sounds kind of like a playbook from this past year.

[B]

He, he won. Twenty years later, what happened was this is literally history. The government massively expanded welfare programs, controlled prices in industry, nationalized many private businesses. And some people notice this. It reduced poverty temporarily, but it discouraged investment. It reduced productivity and reduced overall economic growth. At some point the government's like, ah, we need to fix this. So we take more power, we take more control, we remove checks and balances. We ran out of money, we printed more money, caused hyper inflation, government corruption increase. And today poverty in Venezuela is like 90% collapsed economy, shortage of food, medicine and electricity. This is real people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, man, we don't, we don't have what we need to like literally survive. People fled Venezuela and this is why we're seeing today literally like millions of Venezuelans all over the world celebrating, cheering.

[A]

Bro, they're going nuts in the streets.

[B]

We have a video real quick.

[A]

Do you really?

[B]

We do. So let's do the.

[A]

So this is what happens when people are liberated from what Zoran Mamdadi is trying to institute.

[B]

This is the video. Let's do the top one. Trinity. Yeah, there you go.

[A]

That's Venezuela today.

[B]

That's people outside of Venezuela celebrate rating. And then there's another video if you want to do the other one, Trinity. That's literally in Venezuela, people in the streets celebrating, bro, that their, their leader Nicolas Maduro was taken because for them it's like, it signifies like, hey, this is a. Hopefully a potential end to his authoritarian rule and a hope for freedom and recovery.

[A]

That's it.

[C]

And if you want more proof of how this never works, go back even 20 or 30 years and look at videos when the USSR fell, like, even like the Berlin Wall, like they did not build the Berlin Wall. To keep people from moving there.

[A]

That's right. It was to keep people from leaving. That's right.

[C]

And so it just, it doesn't work. And so some people might put push back. Like what about Scandinavian countries? It seems to work. Well, those are not social, they're not socialist countries.

[A]

In fact, the president of one of the, I think it was Denmark. Denmark, Denmark, he, he got ticked at American progressives calling them a socialist country. And he finally was like, stop saying that we're not.

[C]

That they have free markets, they don't do price control, they do none of the hard marks of socialism. They do have extremely high taxes to do more of a welfare state type of thing. But it is nowhere near socialism.

[A]

And I have recently read, it was a thread I came across recently of Silicon Valley tech investors talking about how essentially all of the investors have left their company country. Yeah, they're having the exact same thing.

[C]

So that's the, my last one of. It's incredibly stupid and harmful. Some of it's that stuff. It's, it's the low level stuff of like, hey, actually when this happens, the economies over time plummet. And so even if it seems like it's working, that's just because capitalism is still doing the heavy lifting at that point. But once it completely leaves, the country completely falls apart. But also, and you said this like, if people really just want to see how harmful it is, just go look up the amount of people that Stalin and Ma and Pol Pot in Cambodia get killed.

[A]

It's 100 million. Yeah, 100. Because. And here's the same thing always happens with socialism. Whenever massive wealth redistribution happens, you know, the only way the government can redistribute is to take it. And people don't want to give it up. And so eventually the government has to forcibly do that, which is why I said socialism is communism before it gets guns. And eventually it just, it becomes violent redistribution. And you get, you get that over there. So what Christians need to learn to do. Christians are people of wisdom because we are the ones who understand human nature. Socialism and communism are atheistic. They're generally atheistic worldviews that are built on the false assumption that mankind is basically good. So man, actually, mankind's basically good. If we just ask them to, People will do the generous altruistic thing. Christians have a much more realistic view of human nature. No, we are not. We are instinctively naturally bad. And so as a result, we have to put in incentive structures to incentivize positive things like hard work, ingenuity, et cetera. Capitalism. Think about this. I'm not saying capitalism always ends up with perfect outcomes, but capitalism incentivizes good things. Hard work, ingenuity, grit, creativity, building businesses. Socialism very much penalizes those things. If you're really successful, we're actually just going to take it away from you and give it to somebody else. So then normal people start going, well, then why would I work really hard? And why would I be really ingenuitive? And why would I have a bunch questions of grit? They're just going to take it from me. Now, do you want to finish with a fun Charles Spurgeon?

[C]

Yes, please.

[A]

All right, dude. All right. So while we're talking about this. So the question is, what should Christians and pastors do? A lot of people don't know this. Karl Marx moved to London while Charles Spurgeon was at the height of his ministry in London. For listeners, you don't know who Charles Spurgeon was. He's generally known as the Prince of Preachers, arguably the greatest preacher to ever live in church history. Had a mega church before there were megachurches. Dude had a church, about 10,000 people in the Metropolitan Tabernacle in the late 1800s in London before there were microphones. So, like, just radical move of God. So Karl Marx moves to London while Charles Spurgeon is there. A lot of people do not know. Spurgeon aggressively and relentlessly attacked what was called then democratic socialism in his preaching. Like, from his pulpit, he quote, unquote, got political. Political. Hello, Prince of preachers. Prince of preachers got political. In fact, I'm going to read a segment of a Charles Spurgeon sermon from Isaiah 66, where what he's doing is he's publicly confronting the growth of, quote, democratic socialism that was coming down from Marx and Engels who had moved to London. So this is Charles Spurgeon doing his deal in the pulpit now. Now it's an elongated quote. Stay with me. For many a year. By the grand old truths of the Gospel, sinners were converted and saints were edified. And the world was made to know that there is a God in Israel. But these are too antiquated for the present cultured race of superior beings. He's talking about all these people, who they were, even they back then were talking about, we're making progress, we want to be more progressive. And he mockingly calls them the present cultured race of superior beings, beings. They are going to regenerate the world by democratic socialism. This is Charles Spurgeon from his pulpit. Okay, so again, people always Like Josh, y' all shouldn't get political, okay? No, no, no. Our job is to bring the lordship of Jesus Christ to bear on everything in the world, okay? If godly people won't, godless people will. The question is not whether. The question is which. Okay, he goes on. They're going to regenerate the world by democratic socialism and set up a kingdom without new birth or the pardon of sin. Truly, the Lord has not taken away the 7,000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal. This latter day gospel is not the gospel by which we were saved. To me, it seems a tangle of ever changing dreams. It is, by the confession of its inventors, the outcome of the period, the monstrous birth of boasted progress. Bro, think about this. 140 years ago in London, the exact same stuff was happening. We want to be progressive. We want to progress past these antiquated ideals of how Christians said society should be set up. So he says, the monstrous birth of a boasted progress. He goes on, the scum from the cauldron of deceit. It has not been given by the infallible revelation of God. It does not pretend to have been. It is not divine. It has no inspired scripture. It is back. It is when it touches the cross, an enemy. When it speaks of him who died thereon, it is a deceitful friend. Many are its sneers at the truth of substitution. It is irate at the mention of the precious blood. Many a pulpit now, bro, this is fascinating. He starts noticing 140 years ago in London that progressivism was seeping into the pulpits in London. This is what he's saying here. Does that sound familiar? Many a pulpit, where Christ was once lifted high in all the glory of his atoning death is now profaned by those who laugh at justification by faith. In fact, men are not now to be saved by faith, but by doubt. So they were. Bro, does this sound familiar? There were all these people like, you know what, man, let's talk about it. Question everything. You know, a doubt's not bad. Maybe if you deconstructed some of the things that this happened 140 years ago in London. Ecclesiastes. There is nothing new under the sun. All right, so he keeps going on. Those who love the church of God feel heavy at heart because the teachers of the people caused them to err. Even from a national point of view, men of foresight see cause for grave concern. Now, bro, this is really interesting. And this is why God designed the church to do what it does. So, Karl Marx. This is really fun fact. He lived in five urban centers in Europe during his life. Paris, Berlin, Cologne, Brussels, and London. All of them ended up developing significant communist movements, except one. London. Why? Because a man of God was willing to open his Bible, stand up in the pulpit and oppose evil wherever he saw it rising, even if it was happening in the political realm. And he was willing to, quote, unquote, get political if he saw that Satan was advancing an evil agenda through that realm. So here's my message that all of us should heed. Unleash the pulpits.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Do your job. That's our job.

[B]

Pastor Josh, Would you pray for us?

[A]

Father, thank you. That we belong to a kingdom that will never end, of the increase of his government and of peace. There will be no end. You promised Jesus Christ. Thank you for being a king who was willing to die on the cross for our sins. Father, I pray that the fresh reality of the limitless grace of God in the crucified Son of God would crash over our hearts. And that, Lord, we honestly, we would just, just like, be absolutely stunned afresh by how much you love us, no matter what we're doing. And so, Father, as that happens, I pray that we would love you with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength, because we see how much you loved us and that we would run with endurance, a good race marked out for us as men and women of God. I pray those things in his name. Amen. Amen.

[B]

Amen. They free, brother.