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Live Wild with Remi Warren
Ep. 172 | Beat the Creep- ways to beat point creep and draw sooner
00:54:49
Remi goes over his best secrets for beating the point creep game.
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Remy Warren
Foreign I'm Remy Warren and I've lived my life in the wild as a professional guide and hunter. I've spent thousands of days perfecting my craft. I want to give that knowledge to you. In this podcast we relive some of my past adventures as I give you practical hunting tips to make you more successful. Whether you're just getting started or a lifelong hunter, this podcast will bring you along on the hunt and teach you how to live wild. This podcast is brought to you by Mountain Tough and Yeti. A lot of the tactics I talk about here require you to be in top physical shape, so I partnered with Mountain Tough to help get you ready for the mountain with their science based hunter specific training app. You'll get in shape and mentally tough able to tackle any hunt. Because we really believe this will help you be more successful. As a listener to this podcast, we're giving you six free weeks to get you started. Just use code livewild welcome back to the Live Wow. Podcast everyone. It's that time of year where we're well into application season and a lot of things are starting to heat up on the application front as applying for more states is becoming available. You know, every year around this time I field a ton of questions about point creep, which is this phenomenon where in preference point states there's a number of points to gain tags and that just seems to continually increase, making hunters keep chasing this moving goal post. So today we're going to look at application strategies to help you secure a tag and look at ways to get into good hunts sooner by looking at what to look for and when you keep your finding yourself on that unsuccessful side of the draw, maybe some strategies to implement to get into those tags and not chase that point creep. So let's dive in and look at some ways to to beat the creep. So this time of year one of the things that I really like to dive into is a little bit of draw strategy and we've talked about different states in the past, we've talked about different hunt strategies in the past and different application strategies in the past. One of the things that always comes up is this kind of idea of point creep. We talked about it a little bit a couple weeks ago, but today we're going to go into a few more specifics on things to think about in your application strategy when you know this point creep is definitely a problem that a lot of states are facing. So what it is to just kind of define it is it occurs when the average number of points needed to draw a tag Just continues to increase over time due to more hunters applying for these very limited tags. And what it does is it makes it harder to draw these coveted tags with that kind of moderate point count. So on one end of the spectrum, you've got your upper echelon, let's say call it like the best hunts in a state. And now the point creep is really happening in states that run a preference point system. And so just as a review, that preference point system is a system where the people with the most points are awarded the tags first. And so it goes down the list. Everybody with, let's say in this particular area, everyone applies. The highest amount of points is 10. This is just an example. Everybody with 10 points that applies gets tagged first and then it goes down the list issuing them in order of people with the most points. That's what a true preference point state does. Now, a lot of states have kind of moved away and created a modified preference point system because they know that what's happening is these tags with the highest demand for points are essentially going only to max points players and the people underneath that have like little to no chance of drawing these top tier coveted tags. So these modified systems are allowing, okay, a lot of the tags are going to the people with the highest amount of points. And then a certain portion of them might be going to a random draw of some way. But the odds are so low in those random draws. It's tough. But there's still a chance if you don't have those max points to potentially draw a tag. Now there's a lot of states that do utilize some form of a preference point. Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking Utah has some sort of preference. Colorado's preference, California, Wyoming. Those are, I know there's others. Those are just the ones that are pinging off the top of my head. But. Well, actually, Montana General is a preference point. And so there's a lot of states that have this preference point system. Oh, Oregon's another one. So. So preference point system is utilized in, I would say at least a vast like half of the states that I apply for that I can think of. So there's some form of preference. Now what happens is this point creep happens where, let's say five years ago, I don't know, this is just examples, right? Say five years ago there was a decent elk hunt that took five points to draw. Maybe I was a guy going in, I started and I've got like four points and I go, oh, cool. Well, I can't, I can Draw that next year. So I apply for it because everybody with five points last year, Drew. And so I apply for it and I don't get the tag and it's like, well, people with six points, Drew, or seven points, okay. And then I apply for it again and that that goal post keeps moving up. So I keep thinking that for a while, you know, it was pretty steady at 3, 4, 5 points and now it's continually growing. What's happening is, you know, the early, there was a group of people that applied a long time ago and they're chasing maybe those top end tags. And then there was some that people weren't in from the ground floor or chasing these mid level tags or other tags. And yet it's continually taking more and more points. So you think that you're going in with this kind of, I should be the guy next. Now obviously people are the guy next, but it's, it's a higher level of points than what's been statistically shown. So you look at the, you look at draw data, you look at the regulations, you look at this and you go, oh man, 70% drew, with my point level, I'm going to apply next year. And then for some reason, you know that that point keeps jumping up. So that goalpost is continually moving. And this is especially true in those like mid range or mid level hunts. Now there's also those top tier hunts where you go, man, it would be awesome to hunt the best unit in the state. Let's say you've got five points off max and you just keep applying, applying, applying. And you're kind of like continually chasing this, this goal that keeps moving out further and further and further. Because what you got to do is you got to weed through everybody that has points ahead of you to even get a chance at some of these top tier tags. And so the point creep happens on the high end and it also happens on the low end where you go, hey, last. Seems like, I don't know, in 2018 it took two points and now it's taking something that might be seven points. So the, the goalpost is continually moving and it makes it hard to kind of plan out when you might be able to hunt. And that was kind of the, the system for preference point is like, okay, the guys have been applying the longest should get the tags because they've been in the game longer. And then those with those higher number of points could kind of plan out and say, oh well, in three years I'll get a tag. And that's how it used to be for a long time, the point levels would kind of have this max cap. And there's a lot of places in Colorado that were like two or three points for archery hunts, three points and have bumped up to seven or eight points. Now there's a lot of places in like Wyoming and everywhere across the west where it was like for years, for a very long time, there was kind of this set number of points that you knew, hey, I can go on that hunt in Wyoming every time I get three points. And it was just, you know, you could draw it and then wait three more years and get it again. And now that goalpost is continually moving because there's this bubble of applicants. A bubble of applicants, and also in many places across the west, decreases in tags. So it's created this imbalance in the system that was originally set up and was pretty equitable for kind of being able to assume when you draw a tag. And now, like, over the years, it's just kind of become something different. And I've seen it in, you know, personally, you know, I've chased tags that well in Utah or whatever, where I've applied for. I think I started applying in Utah as a non resident when I was 16, something like that. I've got a lot of points there. And I started applying for, you know, places like, oh, I can draw this elk tag in six points. And then I kept applying, kept applying it kept going to 7, 8, 9, and I was always a couple, one or two behind. Then I would reach that point level where I was like, oh, I could draw that tag now, but I would continually kind of chase a higher tag is. Is what I was doing. So I would just kind of keep chasing those top tier tags. And now I've acquired a lot of points and I'm glad that I'm sitting on a lot of points because at some point I could cash them in. Probably, you know, I kind of assume like, oh, I could cash them in. And you know, I haven't cashed them in. And places that I was thinking I would cash them in now are just like one or two points ahead, but I'll get there. I think I've got 24 points or something like 23, 24 points, something like that. But also, you know, in some states, I'm not super concerned with withdrawing right away. There's other states where it's like, man, I would like to draw because there's other opportunities in those states where, okay, man, I'd rather go hunting more often there or I'd rather, you know, take advantage of some other opportunities that maybe don't need as many points and would like to cash in. And I talked about this last year with my Wyoming points when I just decided to cash in. I, you know, I bought down and we'll talk about some of these strategies. I went on a hunt and I'm glad I did and I shot a, a phenomenal bull with my bow first day out, really, you know, in an area that took a lot fewer points than I needed. And there's a few other things that we'll talk about that allowed me to get into that hunt or you know, get into a hunt sooner. And then now it opened up some opportunities to. I'm, now I'm back at zero. But I have a completely different strategy from this, this point going, okay, I'm going to find places that I can get into more often. I'm going to find places that don't need as many points, maybe chase some of the more general areas as the regulations and other things have changed. And so one thing that we're going to really highlight today is, you know, a couple of my strategies when it comes to preference point states. I've got, I mean I have a lot of real life experience applying in these states for, for years and I've pulled tags in a lot of states. I've also, you know, built and strategized in holding points in a lot of places or maybe my schedule and other things didn't line up where I was guiding and you know, I'm applying in a state that has similar seasons as where I was guiding and had to work so I couldn't, I find seasons outside of those guiding time frames and so I end up just accumulating points. And now I'm looking, going, oh, okay, cool. I have the opportunity to cash in. So I'm on a, I'm on a, a little bit over the hump in some places. But for those of you maybe just starting out or those of you that have been you, you've got a moderate number of points, a high level of points. There's kind of this, this, I don't know, tail chasing section of points where you've got a lot of point, like enough points where you don't want to cash in on something lower because you waited so long but not enough points to cash in on this higher tier. And there's kind of like no tags available in your particular point level. And that is true for a lot of people that started maybe 10 years ago, eight to 10 years ago. You've got like half, like a decade invested in this. And you go, well, I can either get in at four points or I have to wait till I get 15 to 17 points. What do I do? We're going to talk about that as well. That's like this, this point area that you can definitely find yourself in and I find myself in actually as well in a lot of places. So we're going to talk about a little bit of strategy of hunt planning and then ways to kind of, in some ways beat this creep. And in some ways by beating the creep, you're actually contributing to it more. But we'll go through. And I'm just going to kind of go through these strategies. I got, I don't know, a whole list of things that I do or think about when it comes to applying in preference point states. And we're going to just talk about this as like going after tags to draw with preference. So we aren't really going to be like, even if it's a modified point system where there's the opportunity to draw randomly, we're just looking at strategies here for drawing on your preference, if that makes sense. So what that, well, I'll just describe that is like, that means that you're drawing with, in that pool of someone with the most points for that particular hunt. So the first thing that we have to do, and this is like something that is very, I think, good to think about when, say, you're new to the tag draw game. You're like, man, I'm just starting out, you know, I, I don't know where to start. I know that I want to hunt elk. What should I do? Where should I go? I hear point creep and I'm like, ah, I'm never getting a tag. That's absolutely not the case. The idea of like, oh, the point creeps moving and I'm just starting and I can't go on a hunt is not the case. You probably won't hunt the best unit in the state. Actually, no, I'll say that you will not hunt the best units in the state, but that doesn't mean that you can't get on a hunt. So I think what you need to first do is be realistic. Where on your journey are you? Have you been applying for a long time? Have you not been applying for a long time? Are you just getting started? What are some realistic goals and places that you'd like to hunt? What do you want get out of the hunt? And I talk about this every time we talk about tag draws. But you have to be realistic about the type of hunt you want and what you're going for and build your plan first based on that. Think of it as like, don't go chasing waterfalls. You know, don't. I don't know. Like, I don't even know what that means. But I think it's talking about point creep. It's saying, don't go looking at like, let's say Colorado. And they go, what's the best unit in Colorado? And go, I'm going to apply for that unit and someday I'll draw it. You got to look at the data and say, nope, sorry. Unless they change something drastically, you aren't going to draw that. And that's just the way it is. Like, unfortunately, in the state of California, I have. I had been applying for everything there for a long time because I grew up pretty close to California on the Nevada side. And so I thought, well, I started applying over here and I had like, max points for desert bighorn sheep. And then one year is like mail in application. And I don't know, I think I like, you know, it was expensive. I didn't really have the money, so I was waiting till the end. I mean, it's on me. And it's just like hard to do as a teenager or a young adult. And you got very little money. And these things take a lot of applications, take a lot of money often, and you have to buy a tag and whatever. So I either. I think I got my application in, but it was probably received or whatever after the draw deadline, I don't know. And I ended up missing out on one point. So I am one point under max points. If I was in that max point pool, my draws to draw sheep tag there would be like, I don't know, one in 30 or something. Like, I just, I don't have the data in front of me. I look at it every year, but this is just going off of memory. Let's just call it 1 in 30. And by being that one year off max, I think my draw odds are like 1 in 1300, something like that. So I go from 1 to 30 day 1 in 1300 by like an application getting in late. And that's just one year off. You know, I think about it all the time because I'm like, I probably would have re. I would probably realistically draw or have like at least an opportunity to draw a desert tag in that state. If I was max points, I think I would probably become the max points. I think I did the math at like 92 years old or something. By the time you weed through all the other people now, even, even in the max plane pool may not ever draw, but at least you have a lot better chance of drawing. So, you know, I still apply for it. I'm like, well, you never know. You could get lucky. But just being that one point off, you know, is like, okay, realistically, probably won't draw. If I, if I had made that application when I was, I don't know, 19 or 20 and didn't miss that one, then I would be right in there. But that's somebody that started at the ground level. And so you think, like, I'm just getting into it doesn't matter what state it could be Wyoming, Colorado, whatever. You're like, all right, the statistically to run through and to achieve that top level of whatever it is, deer, elk, whatever, probably isn't going to happen. So you have to go into a random draw mode. You have to think, okay, I'm applying for this tag as a random draw while I'm trying to build points to draw something else and that, and that's a good strategy. So you can apply for some other unit or apply for a top tier unit if there's a random draw in there and you go, okay, I'm doing this while I'm waiting to build points for a hunt that has a realistic draw ability for a certain point level. So one of the strategies after we kind of say, okay, well, where am I on this journey and what is something potential and what I try to look for, let's say we're, we're starting out. The first thing that I do as I look and try to analyze trends. So I'll look at all the data. So let's say it's a particular state or hunt. I'm looking at say Colorado and I can pull up Onyx. If you're an elite member, you can use. They've got some draw stats program in there. And so I can pull that up. I can look at each unit in Colorado and I can look at, you know, a trend of the, the unit and the points. You can see some where the trend is rapidly increasing, where the points are climbing. And you'll see other units that just for some reason kind of have held the same or maybe bumped up one, drop down one. Like they kind of have less of a curve. And so if I'm starting out, one of the things that I want to do is look for those, those hunts that trend to a, you know, whatever point level. Or if let's say I have A moderate to high point level. And I go, okay, what's the trend? Above you? What's the trend? Or below me, if I'm sitting in that bubble, let's say you've got 5 points, 7 points, 10 points, whatever. So let's call it 10 points, the easy round number. And I start analyzing all the units and I look and I go, okay, well with 10 points, there's no units. Like with 10 points. Like what? Because everybody has in their head. Like, I want to draw the one that makes it worth it for my point level. And this is one of the other. I jotted this down as a tip, but rarely is there a hunt that's worth the points that it takes in many cases, like for the wait, whatever that wait time is, you're kind of always. I don't necessarily know if it's worth, like, is there a hunt out there that's worth waiting 28, 30 years for? I don't know. I don't think so. I've been on some phenomenal hunts and some, and some of my. And I've had tags in areas that are those upper echelon hunts. Now I have hunted in like some of the most coveted units in the west. And man, they're incredible hunts. Like, you have opportunity for some really good animals, but also some of these really coveted hunts, like, can be phenomenal. And sometimes just depending on the year, they could suck. Like, it could be very year dependent. I found in some of the best mule deer units in the west. And some years like you go in and it's absolutely worth anything that it took to get there. And there's other years in that same exact unit just a year later that you. I've had better hunts in general units that same year. You know, it might not be me hunt like with the tag, but guiding or taking other hunters or hunting with someone in these units. And so I've just seen that flux in like the best units in the country can be a great hunt some years or like phenomenal hunt. And they can also be just a moderate to garbage hunt in some ways, like not worth the quote unquote point level that it took to get them. So you just, you know, you don't know. And in my summation, I think it's better to get out more often, particularly than to wait forever for something that may or may not be a good hunt. If you're going in with the mindset of like it took 20 years and you kind of go into that mindset like it's going to be A great hunt. And then sometimes it's not. Sometimes it is, right? The, the hunts that take longer to get often are better hunts. I'm not saying that they aren't. I'm not trying to discount how good those hunts could be. Like, it is a world of difference when it comes to hunting pressure, quality of animals, maybe even like, number of encounters. But it can also be, you know, in some ways not worth what it took to get that. Like, you probably could have gone on three other hunts building up to that, and out of those three hunts, one of them could have, you know, resulted in a phenomenal hunt. I like to think of, like, I've hunted elk a lot, hunted a lot of general areas. I've also hunted a lot of, like a few limited entry areas. And you know, in the limited entry areas, your average elk is, is considerably higher. Like your bottom end is kind of where you near your top end in some general areas. But my best bull is a 390 type bull. It's over 380. Took it with my bow in an, like a, not a trophy bull area, if that makes sense. So, you know, you just don't know where your best elk or your best hunt could end up. Often it is in those more limited, harder to get tags, but it's not always the case. And so what I like to do is when we've got a certain level of points, I'm analyzing the trends and saying, like, okay, I have 10 points and I'm going to look at, okay, let's say I've got 10 points. I'm looking at hunts that I could reasonably achieve. And I see that the hunts above me, it was like two years ago was 10 points. Now it's 12 points, was 10 points. Now it's like a year. Last year was 12 points, and the following year it's like 13. And it's continually climbing. You okay? Well, what that's showing is people that are in this kind of bubble area are seeking after those higher point tags. And there's obviously a fair number that we're probably striving for that top level that just realize they're never gonna get there. So they're dropping down a level and saying, I'm gonna go for this. And that's making that whole kind of goalpost move up. And here I'm sitting and I'm looking at a hunt that I'm trying to go for. As I'm planning out next year, the next couple years, or even this year, and going, man, the trend in these units is it is climbing. And I gotta be realistic, like I, I'm probably not gonna reach it if it's something that I wanna do is go on a hunt now. So then I look at tags below me and I go, oh, well there's this, these hunts that are in this seven point range, that man, they're just, they're pretty much staying consistent there. So what that's telling me is like it's fairly consistent hunt in some ways. And you know, the people with that next level of, of points maybe don't want to drop down to that. Cause they're chasing kind of this idea of this better tag out in the future. Which is if you, if you're wanting to be patient, it's not a bad thing. If you're like, I want to get out in the field, then I start to look for those more stable places down lower or those places that are climbing the ladder below me, below my particular point level and I'll jump in for those. But also, let's say you're just getting started out. You can kind of analyze the trends and go, here's what I'm looking for is I'm looking for areas that kind of have a stable point level in that low to moderate range. So I'd say four years or less. Where are places that is like regularly two to three points and it kind of doesn't really go above that often. These are areas where the hunting is a little bit harder or that's maybe more tags involved, maybe more of a general type hunt. But also on these you can kind of look at it as a way of like it's also somewhere where you can reasonably get in and that it might be limited in some way, which makes it better than another unit that might be zero to one point. Okay, so that's what I'm looking for. Saying like I'm getting started. Okay, where's something I'd like a little bit better hunt than what I can get with no points. But you know, I don't want to wait forever. I don't want to keep chasing these things. I'm looking at the trends and saying where somewhere that's been stable for the last five years. And I can start to look and research those areas as I'm building points for them. So when I find and identify those areas, I'm thinking like, okay, I think I can draw it with three points. That's kind of going to be my goal is like I'm going to build up points for this particular hunt. And while I'm building points for those hunts, I'm looking at, like, e. Scouting it, Trying to talk to people that have been there and building knowledge and information and paying attention to the unit, looking at news in that area, other things, because you're going to go into that hunt with a lot more knowledge than a place that you kind of just randomly applied for that year, because it seems like one that you got the most enough points for. And so that's the way that I kind of build out my potential point. Thinking, there's even been places where I say, oh, oh, there's a. There's an archery hunt that I did quite a few years back, but I had gone into that unit two or three times before apply before getting the tag, just looking around, like, I took a trip, like, hey, cool, it's summertime. I'm gonna go fishing at this little lake over there. You know, it's a. Like, however long to get there. I take a long weekend, go explore around, look around and learn it a little bit, thinking, hey, within the next two years, I'll have a tag here. And when I drew a tag, I knew exactly where I wanted to start scouting. I. You know, I'd seen deer in the area before, and I felt way more confident, and I went in there. Um, I actually had drawn a lot of other tags that year, so I didn't have a lot of time to hunt. And I went in there with. I went and scouted it and then went in opening day and hunted for, like, four days or something like that and shot a really good buck with my bow. And I felt like, you know, I. At the time, it was. It felt like a long wait, but I'd already had enough knowledge in that area that I made really good on that tag, probably way better than there was areas that took eight points to draw. And I think I got a buck that would have been as good as anywhere I would have expected because I kind of had, like, a little bit of insight already into it, just based on, you know, being able to predictably draw that it hadn't changed. The point level hadn't changed in years. It actually went down a little bit before I drew it. And then, you know, being able to, like, get in and get out and go hunting made a big difference. So the next thing that I look at, if we're talking about beating the point creep, and one of the things that I want to look for is looking at regulation shifts and changes. And so this is really important because as things change, like, it's not always going to be the same. And there's going to be things that change in regulations. There's going to be whatever. And those can either help or hurt the point creep. A few years ago, Wyoming increased the price of their elk tags and deer tags and pronghorn tags. So people that were sitting on a moderate level of points were like, I'm going to cash in because the price of this is doubling. I've got this many points and I'm going to cash in. So before the price change happened, the number of points needed increased because people were like using that regulation change to cash in. I particularly was like, I'm going to wait, I'll use and I'm going to apply the following year, right when the, the price increases and hopefully, you know, be able to get something a little bit better or like buy down a little bit. Maybe there'll be fewer people applying because a lot of people will cash in. And I, you know, I was like, well, I might be able to get a good area if I spend more points and maybe a little more money. So I waited, right, Knowing that that change was coming into effect. Something like Colorado, where now there's a limited number, well, they're capping the over the counter archery tag. So, you know, maybe the first year, this year you're like, hey, I don't have that many points. I'm just starting out. I was going after this one particular hunt, but it might be a good time to say, well, in one or two years I might, you know, I could cash in and I can guarantee that I'm going to go on what used to be an over the counter non residential archery tag. Well, it's going to take a few points. So I'm going to say, well, there's probably people that were doing that hunt every year that don't want to burn their points on it right now. Probably a few people that have some points that are like, maybe I'll go for that. And there's some people that are like, well, I'll put it as a second choice, so don't burn my points. But maybe there'll be a lot left over of people that didn't apply. Time will tell. So there's going to be people that wait and see what happens. There's going to be people that take advantage of regulation changes. Another change that I really look for when it comes to holding points is an increase or decrease in tags in the unit that I want to apply for. If I've got 10 points and I'm applying for an area that statistically has taken 10 points. And I'm like, okay. Or has a percentage of 10 points. Like, I think I'm there. I'm right there. And they cut the tags in half that next year, I should know that I'm probably not going to draw it, or it's going to. The amount of points it's going to take is going to increase, and vice versa. There's a lot of areas that I've applied for. There's a couple hunts that I've got in where they, you know, watching the regulations, kind of having these particular units in my mind, and I go, okay, I got to this point level, where should I apply? And I see that there's an area that took maybe more points, but they've increased the tag, like doubled, tripled the tags that year. Okay, well, the people that had higher point levels might decide. I don't really know if I want to go for that. I. I was hoping for a hunt with fewer people. And so I'll jump in and say, well, it's the first or second year of tag increases. There's going to be more hunters. But the game doesn't know that there's been tag increases yet. There's clearly booming populations in this area. Maybe I can dive in with a few, a little bit fewer points and kind of level up my hunt from the area that I'm at. Tag increases are a great way to kind of level up in some ways because it either stabilizes the creep or it allows people at a lower level to kind of cash in bringing that point value down a little bit. And there's been a lot of hunts that I've got on that, you know, just by looking at areas that were trending good, they've had light winners, really good grass growth, maybe some burns that boosted the population. And they go, oh, man. Now it's been limited, limited, limited for a long time. And then they go, well, we've got too many deer, too many elk, what have you. We're going to double, triple the amount of tags we're giving out. And jumping in on that early can be a good way to cash in and get a tag sooner. So, like, what I'll do is I'll look for increasing tags if I have a lower point level, and I'll avoid decreasing tags if I have a higher, well, lower point level. If I have a high point level, I might seek out decreasing tags and go, well, there's going to be fewer hunters. Maybe the animals are hurting a little bit, but it's got good genetics and good potential and fewer Hunters, maybe now is a good time to cash in or note those areas and think a couple years down the road might be a good time to cash in after, maybe get a little more age class back in there and you know, look for areas where they've decreased tags recently. Now another option to kind of beat the creep is buying down. And this is, this works to beat it, but it also has a negative effect for creating a point creep. So the buying down theory is where you have a certain level of points and you find a unit that you can guarantee yourself a tag in without having to worry about potentially not drawing. So you go, I can plan this hunt out. Okay, this is going to be my hunt for the year and I know for a fact I'm going to get it because it took, I've got 10 points, it takes six points to, to draw. I'm going to use my points, cash them in and get out in the field and go hunting. I did this recently. I had a great hunt and I don't know if I would have had a better hunt in an area that took the amount of points that I needed. So I think like, it can be a really good strategy, especially after you've seen like, you know, a few factors based on like, oh, it might be a really good antler growth year. There was like a recent burn a couple of years ago, mild winter, wet spring. Now it's time to apply and I go, let's cash in, let's, let's get in right now while the getting is good and not worry about chasing that, that higher point level. Let's, let's drop down, let's buy down, let's cash in and let's get out hunting. And that's a good way if you have a decent amount of points or a mid level amount of points to get out and kind of guarantee that you're going on a hunt. One of my buddies likes to say, increase your success by lowering your standards. It's 100% true when it comes to hunting and tag applications. But you can often get into good hunts, especially just by paying attention to a few things and like cashing in on those, those points that you have. This other strategy, I like to call it party up, doesn't work in Colorado because you go in as a party with the minimum amount of points. But there's a few places where maybe I've been building points, you know, I don't know, Utah or something like that, Utah General tag, something like that. And I just haven't had the time to do the hunt or whatever. But there might be somebody there that's been building points somewhere else. And I might have a really high point level. And I could say, hey, if you have some points and I have a high number of points, why don't we put in as a party are the highest person's points will average down, the lowest person's points will average up. But it's a good way, if you're the low person to maybe average up and get into a hunt sooner. And then often you can maybe find another place where you could do the same thing with someone else or the same person in another state. And it allows you to hunt multiple places, you know, just by kind of strategizing. Within my family and friend group, we have different kind of strategies going this way with different states. I've got buddies that have applied and whatever state, you know, maybe it's Wyoming, Utah, California, what have you. And we go, okay, like you cash in this year with this person, and then next year, the two years after, you can cash in with me in this state, and then I'll cash in with you in whatever state. So we kind of have these strategies of cashing in in different places. So, like, you can kind of continually level up, you know, everybody can kind of continually level up somewhere. El and it also is nice to actually be able to go on a hunt with somebody because you can kind of split travel costs and other things associated with the hunt. You have somebody else that's like, you don't have to go by yourself. You have somebody else that could be glassing or hunting and sharing a camp. So there's a lot of advantages to that system. I've utilized that system a lot in the past just with my friend, group and family of just thinking like, okay, well, I want to do this particular hunt at this time. Okay, cool, well, I can do that hunt now. Can anyone else go now? And then where else is somewhere that you might be able to cash in later? And so kind of thinking of like people that you hunt with within your hunting group, Creating a broader application strategy by communicating and saying, like, where can we share points? Where Somewhere that might be fun to hunt together. Where something that would be mutually beneficial. Like, if I help you out in this state, where can you help me out? It's not always that helping someone out or getting helped out, but oftentimes it does work out like that where, hey, you've got some buddies and like, okay, a couple of us are going to go on this hunt this year. Why don't me and you go on this next hunt two years from now, and we can kind of, you know, or, hey, these guys are going to go and hunt it. And then, you know, a couple people will continue to build points and then go back. You know, like, that group will split up and go back. So they've kind of exchanged knowledge in an area for help getting back into that area. And it's a really cool system to do with your friends and family, because you can. You can get on more hunts that way. You can get into potentially better hunts that way, and you can maybe hunt the same unit more often in a shorter amount of time. Sometimes it might be cutting it by a couple years. Sometimes it might be cutting it by a period of quite a few years, depending on how many points you have and how long everybody's been applying. But it's a really good way to kind of also, like, find somebody to go with you in certain hunts. Like, there's some hunts where I'm like, man, it'd be nice to have another set of eyes. I don't know if I want to drive 36 hours out there to go hunt this unit by myself, but, oh, this buddy of mine's hunted it before. Hey, why don't you apply with me? I know you just drew it last year. I've got enough points for both of us to get the tag and let's go hunting next year. And it's an awesome. It's an awesome way to do it. And think about not just applications individually, but applications with your friends or hunting buddies as well. One of the things that I tell a lot of people is when it comes to application strategies, you know, try to get out of chasing your tail. You know, if you don't want to. If you don't want to wait, you're like, I want to go hunting. I. And I just keep getting beat by the system. It's unsuccessful, unsuccessful, unsuccessful. You have to get yourself out of that system, and you have to do some of these techniques to get into that tag. It is one of the. It is a mental game. Like, I've. I've been a part of it, where I go, damn it, I've got 13 points. God, that's a long time to wait. I don't really want a tag that takes five points. Like, that sucks. I could have had that five years ago. Well, if you could have had it five years ago or whatever, you probably would have or what have you, right? So sometimes if you're just sick of not drawing, you need to do something to draw and get out of that loop of waiting your tail. Now, one of the things that I also look at, and I've talked about this nearly every time we talk about applications, is just like looking at those points and maybe some alternate seasons that have better draws or seasons with better dates. Like maybe the first rifle hunt takes X amount of points, seconds, something. Fourth is a lot, but third is a lot lower. Okay, well maybe I'll go into that or alternate season dates in the same unit, picking a good unit with maybe a, a muzzleloader or a primitive type like let's go archery instead of muzzleloader. Let's go muzzleloader instead. Something like that can always help you get into units sooner. And like I said, you know, one of the things to consider is the reality is, you know, most of the hunts that take a really long time to draw may or may not be worth it. So you have to decide, well, what's my strategy? And one of the strategies that I have often is you could also have this be patient strategy where you go, hey, these preference point states, I'm just playing the long game there. I'm not necessarily looking to hunt there right now. I'm going to look at all the other over the counter zero point places and try to go and draw something somewhere else. Where I'm like, I'm looking for a hunt and I can go find this other hunt somewhere, but I'm continually gaining points as well. So down the road, when I want to cash in, I can. And that's a strategy to think about it. It's the patience game. Sometimes you don't have to beat the creep. You can just kind of wait it out. You can be patient and you can kind of, I guess in some ways be the person that makes the creep. In the future where you go, look, I, I'm waiting. I mean I, I'm sitting at that level right now and in a few places where I go, okay, I could cash in whenever, but I'm waiting for the right time when I don't have something else, when, you know, I, I didn't get a general tag in this particular place, when I feel like, oh, maybe I've got some time and this would be a really good year to cash in. Well, I've got that because I've been patient and I, I was using my preference point state is that down the road hunt. And then at any point I can now just decide to buy down and cash in those points and go on the hunt when I'm ready for it. And that's A, that's another great strategy to utilize in a preference point state. I guess. Like that strategy is just breaking through the point creep with time at some point. Like there was a. There was tags that I was chasing. I was continually behind, continually behind, continually behind. And then I just decided, you know what, I'm not going to even chase those. I'm just going to either build points or, and just focus on getting tagged somewhere else. And then after a few years I go, oh man, that place that I was chasing, I guess I'm actually over the point cap for that now. In some ways you kind of just put it on the back burner. And sometimes that take, that might be years of waiting, and other times it might be three or four years of waiting. You know, it just depends on the type of area that it is. Another little strategy, and one last strategy that I think is one to think about depending on your point level is you can kind of often buy up with your points on bad years. And what I mean by that is there are certain states that are highly affected by drought. There are certain states that are highly affected by winters. There are certain states that are highly affected by whatever. And I think that oftentimes, hopefully tags, the amount of tags directly correlates with these things, but sometimes it doesn't. And I think that, like, if you're sitting on a certain amount of points, I have some friends that have drawn top tier areas without the maximum amount of points because it was like a drought year. This happens in Arizona a lot where the guys with the most points go, okay, they're waiting, they're waiting. They're waiting. Because antler growth, especially with mule deer and elk, is so tied to water in that country. Like when there's good water years, it's phenomenal, like 20, 30% difference in antler growth. So you got waiting your whole life or whatever and you go, nope, maybe this is, you know, a year that isn't that. Well, the top point holders are probably going to hold off and wait. They've been waiting long enough. They might as well just wait a few more years and see what happens next year. And so that allows people with potentially lower points to jump in the draw. Maybe that offers more, more tags into the random draw. Which has happened to two friends of mine. They both drew strip tags in, in bad water years and they both shot really good bucks. I mean, I think both their bucks were in that like high 180s, 190 class bucks. And you go, okay, that's on a, on a bad water year. Obviously, like it's one of the best mule deer units in the world really. And when it's a good water year, it is the best in the world. And so on those good water years, like, I don't even know if it would have been possible to draw. Like you're just very lucky. And they were still very lucky drawing those. But you know, cashing in and applying like shooting for the moon on those when you've got, you know that it's like the top tier point people aren't going to be shooting for. Trying to take advantage of those particular hunts that year could be a benefit that can happen in whatever point. Not even just the top tier units, but mid level units where you go and there is a bad winter and people are kind of like, well, do we wait it out? What do we do? And sometimes when you have like a, maybe you've been getting point creeped in that unit for a couple of years or you've had your eyes set on a particular hunt, you go, oh, I know that unit. Or I, that would be a cool area to hunt. Maybe some, some of these places that I apply for. Man, it's just a nostalgia type hunt. Like, I don't know, I, I really want to hunt. I don't even like to talk about units or whatever, but I like to. I just want to hunt region G in Wyoming because it's like a famous area. I know there's other areas that I could get into with fewer points that are better right now especially. But that's just an area that I want, I want to experience hunting in that area, you know, and I've been kind of like point creeped out of it for a while and now I can like, okay, well I could draw it. Well, I'll probably try hunting in there. Unless of course I find a. I don't know. I know there's some sleeper units of other places that are just as good or better, but it's one of those things where you go, okay, well on, on bad weather years or whatever, people could get into some good hunts with fewer points. So paying attention to, you know, the cyclical things and the news within a particular area pays, I would say it pays dividends in like that application strategy. It's a ton of information to absorb and think about. You know, I mean, honestly, like I use a lot of resources. I mean I read through every hunting fool like magazine I think I have ever since they've started. You know, I read through like all of, I mean Epic Outdoors is another good one. I Read like a lot of, like just I got like a Google News feed of places that I think about and like, okay, let's see, what's the, what was the snowpack like this year? What's the word on the ground? Talking to people in different states, you know, and sometimes it, it makes a difference, sometimes it's not going to make a difference. There's been people chasing it and they're all going to cash into what have you. But you know, you can often in downturn years for whatever buy up in a unit. Which means like even right now there's, there's a lot of states where the state of, well, the state of elk hunting I would say is as good as it's ever been in most places. The state of mule deer hunting is probably as bad as it's ever been in. In a lot of places. There's a lot of top tier units that I mean like, I'm thinking like me personally, a guy that has a lot of points in places, I'm like, I'm not gonna cash in now. I'm just gonna see what happens in the future. But then there's people that could take advantage of that and say like, well, I don't have that many points. I've got enough. Probably rather go hunting than never get out and hunt these particular places. Maybe cash in and you'd probably find a better deer or a more mature deer than you might in a general area or a place that took fewer points traditionally in the past. So you can kind of look at those downturns kind of like think about it like the stock market, like the best time to buy is in a bad market, right? It's like when the market's crashing, that's when you want to buy, that's when you want to cash in. Because people like that don't, haven't cashed in their points can get into maybe a potentially better deal sooner. And that's kind of the last strategy, you know, for taking advantage of utilizing preference points in a preference point state and trying to beat the point creep. Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that podcast. I know one of the things going into this upcoming hunting season so important is just understanding the draws and some potential hunts to get on. If you are thinking of like, I, I want to get on an elk hunt, you know, I, I maybe don't have enough points or I just want to bring home some meat and you want some more information on those. I, I think of it as, I guess the other elk meat I actually had have an article in this upcoming Bugle episode, talking about targeting spikes or spike tags. There's a lot of places where you might not be able to get into a bull tag super easy, but you can fill that time in between by chasing cow elk or spike elk. And so it's a really good way to get out in the field, learn an area, hunt in potentially an area that you might draw down the road for a limited entry draw, or in some trophy areas and get in there and be able to take a spike elk or even a cow elk. It's a really good way to just kind of get out in the field. So if you aren't members of the Rocky Mountain Elk foundation, make sure you subscribe and get a membership and you'll get Bugle magazine, you'll get my upcoming spike tactics article. I kind of wrote that article just because I got a lot of questions about it. Not just at the hunt expo, but also online as well. Like, I've been getting a lot of questions of like, hey, I got a spike tag. What are some tactics? Because there's just not a lot of information out there. And honestly, it's a lot harder than some of the other elk hunts, to be honest. But it's easy to get a tag. So I thought I'd dive into that. I thought it'd be just a really fun article. If you like this podcast, you like that kind of information, check out the next issue of Bugle, find that article in there and as I like, you know, make sure you subscribe. Join Rocky Mountain Elk foundation because it's an awesome organization for conservation and land conservation. And then you get the added benefit of, you know, just like a, a cool magazine with a ton of awesome elk hunting info and, and tips as well. So I think you guys will enjoy that. Like, it's a really good one and a thing to think about, maybe that I didn't even mention in this last podcast is, you know, looking at alternate type hunts. I do that often where there's been a lot of units that I've been applying for and I go, you know, I'm, I'm probably going to get that in X amount of years and can go and pick up an over the counter cow elk tag or something like that, or apply for a spike tag and get in there and I'm hunting and I'm learning the unit. And man, if you can hunt a unit one more time than once, that second hunt is absolutely, I would say, like a greater benefit from that first hunt every time you can get that infield knowledge it pays such dividends like just to be able to get out in the field. So that's something to think about is, hey, I'm building points. I think it's going to take me five years to draw this, but man, I could go cow, elk, hunt that every year up until that point. I can fill my freezer, I can have an awesome adventure, I can learn the unit when I draw my bull tag. It's game on. Like, I know where I'm going when the opening day starts. I've done that so many times and it's just been so beneficial. So something to think about that I guess I probably should have mentioned in the, in the main podcast, but that is, that is an awesome strategy. Another thing that I would like to mention before we go, if you haven't tried my new Wilderness Athlete flavors, we've got a prickly pear, orange are huckleberry, lemonade. They're phenomenal flavors for energy and focus, hydrate and recover. They're available. There's, there's still some left. They've been selling really well. Like everybody that got to sample it and try it has really enjoyed the flavor. So if you like that, you know you want, you're bring some drink mix on. Whether it's for working out. Like, I do the tubs off season and then I do the single serve packs for in season, you know, like for pre workout, after workout, whatever, I utilize it. And then when I'm hunting, hiking, I just do. I like the single serve packs, but that's available on the Wilderness Athlete website and you guys can use code livewild for a discount on that stuff. So give that a try if you haven't tried it out yet. And then the last, I guess one last thing before we go, you know, a great support of this podcast, Vortex Optics. One of the things that I was thinking about, you know, I was kind of, kind of going through in my head of like, all right, this time we're prepping and planning and thinking about the season coming up, application season and potentially what I might draw. One of the, you know, things that I kind of think about before the season is really going through gear and is like, is there anything that I can upgrade? I always suggest, like if you're going to spend money on one piece of kit, one piece of gear, it's probably going to be my optics and primarily my primary optics, my binoculars. But another thing, like if you're, you know, rifle hunting or whatever, like a really good piece of gear would be that range finder, whether you're rifle hunting or bow hunting. But if you're, if you've got a rifle that you can have an adjustable turret and you've got, you know, your dope charts and whatever. As we go into the season of like prepping for the hunt, having a ballistics calculating rangefinder is pretty awesome. I've been utilizing one for the last few years and I don't know, just something I was thinking about the other day because I was like I was going out to get a new rifle dialed in and like, all right. And I kind of run the ballistics and I can get out at the bench, like essentially ping targets. And within my first after initial sight in, I'm shooting targets out at pretty good distance. And it just builds a lot of confidence preseason. So I don't know, I was like thinking about him. Like, man, if I was to suggest a piece of gear that maybe you don't have in the optics category, if you're a rifle hunter, that is, if you have that ability to adjust, like you've got an adjustable rifle scope, that's a really good option. And if you guys are interested, we do have some of those on our website currently. There's a few in stock and then we do have some scopes and things on there that are still in stock as well. So something to think about, something to check out. Remywarren.com We've got our store on there. If you haven't checked out our store, go check it out, man. We've got. Oh, the people that ask for kids stuff it it. Some of it's back in stock on there. We've got kids hats, kids shirts. A couple of onesies left. We sold the majority. I didn't do that many of them, but I did a few that we brought to the hunt expo. So those should be in the store now. Unless they've sold out. There wasn't a lot of the onesies. There's quite a few shirts and hats left. And then we've also got some cool kids yonder bottles. I got one with like a little, I guess it's a little rag horn, five point bowl and then a little fork and horn. Mule deer. They're just fun bottles. My kids have loved them. Like my son's just so stoked on his little mule deer. He like keeps putting his. He's only two but he keeps putting his like fingers up by his head when he wants his water and he's like buck, buck. So it's been a lot of fun. Like if you guys have kids out there want some live wild gear for them. We got some youth sized shirts, a couple of little onesies, and some kids yeti water bottles, which are pretty cool. So check that out. I'm gonna say until next week, beat the creep. Catch you guys later.