← Live Wild with Remi Warren
Live Wild with Remi Warren
Ep. 221 | Conservation and how hunters are making an impact with RMEF president Kyle Weaver
00:53:10
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. I'm Remy Warren and I've lived my life in the wild as a professional guide and hunter. I've spent thousands of days perfecting my craft. I want to give that knowledge to you. In this podcast we relive some of my past adventures as I give you practical hunting tips to make you more successful. Whether you're just getting started or a lifelong hunter, this podcast will bring you along on the hunt and teach you how to live wild. This podcast is brought to you by Mountain Tough and Yeti. Now, for those that don't know, Mountain Tough is an online based training app that's designed for hunters to train you both mentally and physically for the mountains so you can go on. And there's programs designed with workouts that are specifically made to get you ready for the things you're going to encounter out there in the wild. And while a lot of you probably know that their programs are designed to get you ready, they also have programs designed to keep you ready during the season. It really is a year round process to help you be the best you can be on the hunt. If you're looking for a great gift this holiday season, YETI has you covered with their Rambler drinkware. It's a leak. Fruit, stackable, ton of different colors and everything for drinking water, coffee, wine or beer. They even have shot glasses and flasks. They're great stocking stuffers and an awesome gift to give this holiday season. Welcome back to Live Wild podcast, everyone. You know, as hunters, conservation is at the forefront of what we do. So this week I'm joined by special guest Kyle Weaver, president and CEO of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Today we're going to look at conservation of big game, how improvements benefit all wildlife, and a few of the projects that RMEF has been working on recently. Kyle, thanks for joining me, man. It's always a pleasure to have you on and, and I know as a hunting tips and tactics podcast, we can't do any of that without animals out there, right? Like if there's no elk, if there's no mule deer, if there's no pronghorn, then there's no tags and all of this is for naught. So thank you for joining me. It's fun to have you on and, and to kind of go over some of the stuff that us as hunters have been doing for conservation and some of the fun projects that you guys have been working on.
- [02:18]
B
Yeah, for sure. Thanks Remy. It's always fun to get together and talk hunting a little bit. Don't get to do A lot of it. But, you know, we kind of. For myself in this type of role in our organization, that's what we do, as you said, you know, we. We get out there and fight for hunters and. And do everything we can to keep. Keep the heritage of hunting and the rights to hunting and access and the animals and the habitat, you name it. I almost get as much joy out of doing that now as actually getting out there hunting. Yeah.
- [02:45]
A
That's awesome. I know. You know, I think one of the things that RMEF is really good about is the fact of conserving land and habitat. And I've talked about this, actually, on a very recent podcast. You know, I really believe that. That without the habitat, you have nothing. And habitat is the thing that, you know, right now, a lot of it, especially with migration routes and winter range. And it's like, we've seen so many problems on winter range. We've seen so many problems with blockades to the winter route and animals access to the things that they need. And we look around and we go, oh, man, deer populations are struggling, or this elk population is struggling or whatever. And it's, you know, we can blame a lot of things, but when it comes down to it, we just haven't given the animals access to what they need to live. Really?
- [03:35]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, this. We have this kind of conserving America's big game, our big game initiative. But it really gets around that ecosystem you just talked about, right? Like, they all play in the same ecosystem, and it all feeds off each other, whether it's water or habitat, winter rain, summer rains, migration corridors that get there, fencing, fire, you know, weed control, you name it. Even though sometimes we focus on the biology or, you know, the finances of it in estate agencies around a specific thing, it all works together. And I think that's where RMEF steps in, right, Is, you know, because of hunters, because of our members and our supporters, we have this little kind of. I call it kind of our sweet sauce, which is that land and habitat thing you talked about. We have a system here with our partners at the federal, state level and our private landowners with all our conservation easements and access easements that really can make impact, and it's really around this entire ecosystem.
- [04:37]
A
Yeah, that's. That's the other thing that, you know, people see. I think they see like, oh, Elk foundation, right? And they're like, rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. It's like, yes, elk is a. Is a big one. It's a. It's a keystone of the Organization, but how many. How many other species and animals? And, you know, I know you guys have been really pushing this big game initiative. It's like, it's not just for elk. It's for all, you know, primarily big game. And then even with that stuff that we hunt and don't hunt, benefits from it as well.
- [05:08]
B
Yeah, well, you, you know, you go back to 1984 in the beginning of it, and, you know, Deck, Mr. Decker, Mr. Munson and the groups that were involved, the idea was we got to do something for elk. No one's doing anything for elk. And they, you know, they'll tell you, like, it's almost the work of the Lord, right, Of what this thing has turned into and the impact it has made. You know, the. What we're really doing is nothing new. We're just talking about it more, and we're actually focusing on when we go into an area, you got this. This. This pinnacle monarch animal of elk, and people talk about, you know, the damage they do. Yeah, they're a big animal. If there's food, they'll make their way to it, there's no doubt. And they might do some damage along the way. So, you know, we've always focused on. On depredation and help with grants and funding on that side. But there's also reasons around that, you know, well, they're moving here because of this habitat over here or the impact there. And so when you start looking at all those pieces, everything's impacted as this big animal kind of this, that kind of this top of the food chain in the. In the cervid world is doing it. It's like, well, why not be more intentional about it? Why not add that to our science and research and then even focus on some of those projects, you know, some of the ones we've talked about before where we've went in and said, no, this is. This is really a mule deer corridor more than an elk corridor. Well, that's still important to us. It's important to our members. It's important to hunters. We're helping a state or wildlife agency, but in the end, it helps the entire ecosystem. I think that's what probably makes us a little different is just that this, the. The organization, from our lands and habitat program managers down to our fundraising people, that whole thing is connected together. And that's actually what makes it exciting for me is just the amount of impact you can make.
- [07:07]
A
That's awesome. One of the, you know, there's a couple of land conservation access projects that I wanted to talk about. I know that you've got a new one that's kind of been in the works for a little bit, and that's that Windmere Hills one in Elko, Nevada. That one's kind of near and dear to my heart because it's. It's my home state, and I've actually done a fair bit of hunting over the years in and around that area. You know, I don't like to give away too much, but, you know, I'm very familiar with the area. I'm very familiar where this project's going, and I'm also very familiar at the. The impact that this project's going to have, which is it, you know, as we. As we break it down, I think that obviously it's a. It's a. It's a. I'll just kind of preface what I know about it. It's a major winter range for a lot of animals, elk being one of them. And the. The funny part about that area is sometimes we get locked in, right, and we think, like, oh, this is Nevada's elk or Utah's elk or Idaho's elk. Well, the elk in this area are Utah, Idaho, and Nevada elk. And. And honestly, the success of the elk in all those areas depends on a lot. In a lot of ways, this winter range. And then the other thing is, it's a big winter range, not only for elk, but mule deer as well, and a herd that I think is very kind of iconic to the state of Nevada, that northeastern Nevada. And also many of the deer from that area move in and through those three states as well. And they're definitely, definitely transition from some summer range to that winter range there. And then when you get on that winter range, what you see is massive amount of cheatgrass. You see a lot of recent burns. You see a highway that goes right through the middle of where these animals move, and a lot of problems that are kind of unique to it. And when I was growing up, that area was flourishing with mule deer. There weren't as many elk then, and now the elk are actually doing really well there, but we see a lot of problems with primarily the mule deer herd. And. And that was, you know, one of our largest mule deer herds in the state. So I think this is. This, to me, is a really exciting project, and it's cool. You know, every. The thing about RMEF is you can find a project like this wherever, any state that you live in, where there's always projects like this. But this one, to me, kind of calls to me because I'm so Familiar with the area.
- [09:34]
B
Yeah. And it's special for a couple reasons. Right. Like it's a great landowner. It always starts with a great landowner who has a bigger thought other than I just want to make a ton of money or they want to make impact. Checkerboard. This is a huge checkerboard area, which is, we all know in the west, right. That's trying to find ways to make connectivity in checkerboard areas is really hard. And it takes a landowner. You know, this landowner has. Is really focused on this for many years. And this project kind of all came together and that's where we step in. That's where the Elk foundation can step in and do something. I believe it's around 22,000 acres on this, on this easement. But the connectivity of it's like 73 to 75,000 acres. That's a massive piece. And I'm just trying to remember the notes a little bit. I think that herd is somewhere around 12 to 15% of the total population. Mule deer in Nevada is in that herd there. As you said that that migration corridor, which I think has probably become one of the most important parts of mule deer's future is those corridors. Elk tend to be a little more flexible and find ways where you protect these long standing migration corridors from mule deer is even more important. This checks that box and then it also checks the box of it has an access easement around it for hunters. So that when you say a special, not just because it's where you kind of grew up and know the area, it's special because it hits so many parts of our mission when we go in to do a project. A lot of times you don't get all those parts together.
- [11:05]
A
Yeah, that's. That's one of the things. So, like growing up in Nevada, there was. It's like every majority of the state's public. Right. But there are some specific areas that were used for the railroad and every other section is. Is public and private. In Nevada. It's always been like when I was growing up as a kid, it's always been kind of the tradition of you could really. You could actually hunt the private land for the most part, because it was never posted. People kind of encouraged it in a way, and nobody was ever blocked out or locked out. And then as things have changed, that whole landscape of that access for hunting and all those things has changed as well. And it's not like it used to be like you used to be able to go anywhere and hunt anywhere. And that's actually not the case. Anymore. And so I think that these, these conservation easements and access issues are huge for hunters in the state of Nevada, especially in this, this area that is so, so checkerboarded. I mean, the entire unit is public, private, public, private, public, private.
- [12:10]
B
Yeah.
- [12:10]
A
So if you can take a whole chunk of that and conserve it and then also include access to it, I mean, that's, that's game changing because it's not just for how things used to be. It's. It's protecting it for the way things are gonna be in the future. And that is what excites me, that I know that my kids are gonna be able to enjoy. My kids are gonna be able to enjoy the places that I used to enjoy as a kid. And I know as somebody that grew up in Nevada, we, we run into that a lot where we're going. Remember, this is. I mean, we. There's a place that my buddies and I went and it was like my buddy's. Like, this is where I went on my first chucker hunt with my dad and had all these memories. And we go to go up that canyon and there's a big no trespassing sign. And you're like, what? We didn't even know. Like, that's new, right? Oh, okay. We got to figure out, right? And that's just the changing of the landscape. And I understand it on both ends, but just to be able to have that access and other things, it's awesome to know that it's going to be protected for the future.
- [13:08]
B
Well, to me, and also kind of on those, like sometimes you hit a home run, this is kind of the grand slam, right? You hit the home run with a bunch of things on base at the same time. And that's really what makes this a neat project. And in Nevada, as you said, you know, the land is tough in Nevada, it's really hard to not just have all the impact for the land, for the ability for us to have access to it, honeywise, but then this multitude of animals that get it, like, it's, it's the, it's the, it is the grand slam almost of a project.
- [13:38]
A
So. So let's run through like exactly how this one works, because this is a little bit different than some. So It's a, it's 22,000 acre conservation easement. So this is private land that you guys have worked out a deal where you're essentially making it where it can't be built on. Right? Assuming that within this conservation easement, because not all conservation easements include access. It's including an access area easement portion that will be managed by, I think. Is it managed by the Department of Wildlife, if I remember correctly?
- [14:11]
B
It is, yeah. NDOW is managing it. Yeah.
- [14:14]
A
And then it opens up and improves that access. Access for the public land that's within. Within that zone. So. And then I know too, I don't know if this is already in the works or whatever, but I know Endow has been doing a lot of habitat receding and all this other stuff, but you gotta have the landowners on board. So I'm assuming with this it's also gonna open it up to the ability to mitigate the cheatgrass, to plant, you know, plant some other stuff and really allow that migration corridor to exist and to flourish for mule deer particularly, and all the elk and antelope that also utilize it.
- [14:52]
B
Yeah, you know, this one's almost backwards sometimes how we do stuff. If you take East Canyon that we did out of Salt Lake, we had been doing work there for years, you know, had the habitat work, the grass, the, the collaring and tracking animals. And then we came back in and actually secured the land with the department there for another huge mule deer corridor and population. This was kind of the other way around where we're getting all the land done and we're not going to go away. Right, right. We're going to come back in and now do all the habitat work to go with it, which then we can actually be even more effective as it goes. So it's, you know, it's a step one of, of hopefully a long relationship there of now determining. Okay, we've really done the hard part here. The easy part for us, a lot of cases is that habitat work, that cheat grass work, if there's fire or if there's water issues or, you know, you get some kind of terrible flood or freeze or whatever. We're really set up to go in and help the states with financially do that. The landowner is always the key in this piece. Having a landowner that really sees all these parts you're talking about on the private land side with the easement, the access easement, and then this connectivity to all the public land. It's a neat one. You know, this, this is hopefully this is one of those type of projects that really means something to our members. Yeah. And they see what I call the investment they've made in us as an organization. This is us putting that back on the ground and make an impact for. For hunters and animals.
- [16:24]
A
Yeah, that's exciting. I'm really excited about that one. And just Knowing, you know, for people that don't know that area too, there's. That's actually one of the first places that I had ever seen those migration overpasses over Highway 93.
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B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
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A
And, you know, I don't know. I know that. That they did those quite a while ago, and that was kind of like a pilot program for that. And you see that being adopted a lot more places in a lot more states. And, you know, this has been a long. It's been a long road to really, you know, focus on this because I think for a long time people didn't realize what was going on. Why, why. Why are these, you know, why are these populations suffering? What's. It's that. Is that habitat fragmentation, the access to what they need, and then, you know, obviously to, you know, being able to conserve that. And I love the thing that, what. One of the things that you guys do the best, I think, is the fact that you are a hunting organization that thinks about their members as hunters and it's about access as well. We want the population, but we also need places to go. We need places to hunt. So that was a really cool project that I'm really excited about to see that go through. So that's really cool.
- [17:34]
B
Yeah, I think it closes here quarter one here in 26. So hopefully we'll have a nice celebration and some good promotion and come out there with our crew with ndow and make a big deal of it, but hopefully not reveal your best hunting spots.
- [17:51]
A
Yeah, exactly. Well, I don't hunt there, but, you know, within the unit, I, I've. I've definitely benefited from that herd in the past. So it's a. It's an awesome herd to. To chase and, and like I said, you know, it is a large. A large herd with a lot of a big deer population. And what I've seen over the years is, you know, that used to be one of the areas where you could, like, growing up, you could get a tag there every year. And it wasn't a problem because there's so many deer. And that is. It's not the case anymore. It's very difficult, and there's a lot fewer. And the cool thing about that area, though, is the elk population has. Has definitely benefited from a little bit of that fire and. And other stuff in there. And you. You see that too, where it's like, growing up there was hardly any elk there, and now the elk population is booming. It's really cool. So it's really cool to see. So, yeah, that is awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. So there. There's another project you guys had that I. That I noticed, the Cumberland Forest Project.
- [18:46]
B
Yeah.
- [18:46]
A
And that's in. That's in Virginia, if I'm correct. Is that right?
- [18:50]
B
Yeah, it is. It's kind of weird. We talked about one in Nevada, where you're from, and Virginia is where I'm from. So.
- [18:56]
A
Yeah, that's where I grew up on it. Let's go. This.
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B
This is quite a bit west of where I grew up, but kind of, you know, very, very different atmosphere and environment for hunting compared to the West.
- [19:07]
A
Yeah. So. So let's run me through this project a little bit, because I think people hear Virginia Western guys here, Virginia, and they're like, what? Virginia? And yes, they're there. So. So what's the. The premise behind this project? And then what are some of the benefits of, like, you know, jumping into this project?
- [19:28]
B
Yeah, you know, this is down in that really southwest part of Virginia. And if people look at Virginia, where it really kind of skinnies down there borders West Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee, that's where the elk are in Virginia, which are flourishing. I mean, they're doing great. And, you know, I remember when I was back in Virginia, the elk were coming over the border from, you know, mostly from Kentucky and Tennessee. And you could, you could harvest them, you could take them, and people would. You put a deer tag on them, basically. And we had to work with the state say, hey, if we want help, we should take advantage of this. And really, in those. Those counties down there, there were some private landowners that got together and said, we'll help support it. RMEF jumped in and said, we'll help financially because building an elk management plan is not cheap.
- [20:14]
A
Yeah.
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B
So as this is expanded in this Cumberland Forest area, this is another huge. I think it's a 62,000 acre conservation easement.
- [20:23]
A
Wow.
- [20:23]
B
That also gives, you know, perpetual recreational rights across all that with the Virginia Department of Wildlife. So that. That's a big deal. In the east, that. That is a huge piece of land out west. 62,000 acres, still pretty big. But in the east, that's massive. But as that herd can grow, right now it's been limited to kind of three counties. This starts to let that. That grow and provide a way for other private landowners, because this elk is all. They're almost all on private land. The private landowners working with the state has been the key to that herd growing out there.
- [20:58]
A
That's awesome. Yeah, that. That's one of. I think I haven't experienced that hunting Elk in the east, in Kentucky or Virginia or whatever, but just, just to around and hear him bugle in those hardwoods would be incredible. Like, I don't know. That would be.
- [21:12]
B
Yeah. And there's, there's some big elk. Those, the, the, you know, if you've seen some of the pictures, they kill some, they kill some, some huge elk out there.
- [21:20]
A
Yeah, I know. Well, I mean around here that the elk around here, they've got a, a tough go at it. They don't have the mass crops and the agriculture and the like mild winters that they do over there. It's like, it's ideal for letting those animals flourish. Really?
- [21:36]
B
Oh, yeah. The green grass and you know where they're at there and that there's such easy access, whether it's going up into hardwoods down on more flatland river bottoms through there, it's. For an animal that is adaptable as the elk, they don't have to work nearly as hard there for sure. And not the predator base either. You know, you got, I don't know exactly what you'd have there. You do have black bears and you have coyotes and stuff coming in, but it's not on the mass that the predators are here. So. Yeah, definitely allows a little stressful life there. And the one thing I did remember too is that is the largest open space public access in the history of the, of the state.
- [22:17]
A
Wow.
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B
So that just gives you the impact of the size of something like that back east.
- [22:21]
A
That's cool. I know. And then there was a, the third phase, that landscape project with the Nature Conservancy and some other partners in there. Is that, is that all connected? I think there was like 160,000 acres in that elk range. Or is that just the whole area where these elk are coming from?
- [22:38]
B
Yeah, it's definitely down. It's down that whole Appalachian elk range. So it, it'll it'll kind of connect into that Kentucky, Tennessee and Virginia together, which those again, as you said before, they. Elk don't know the line by any means, but it really helps expand that which will allow that herd to grow. You know, Kentucky has had the best success in the east by far, I think, reaching upwards of 15,000 elk at one point. And. But if you ever go there, I have not hunted it either, but I can tell you it's thick, these elk. I mean, it's tough hunting. Opening those canopies out east is really the key. The meadows and the size of the stuff that the elk have here, you got to really go create that more Often it grows in so fast. That's a lot of where that habitat work comes into. So all of this stuff will help us, as you say. Now we got the land, we got the. You got it conserved. Go back in and hopefully get some more habitat work done. Again, huge benefit for, for turkeys, for whitetail and kind of an interesting piece that will probably come into here. About two years ago, I think it was, we did a, we did an MOU with ruffed grouse society and we found that in those mountain grouse where we're doing work, it is, it is, is lock in step with the work they're doing for grouse. And we have an MOU on these projects working together, which I bet will start to flow into some of this. Oh, that's just kind of interesting that probably the, the largest of the forest and the smallest of the forest are benefiting together here on this deal.
- [24:05]
A
Yeah, that's why like every time you start, get into a spot where you flush a lot of mountain grouse, you know, it's probably good elk habitat. You know, it's funny, they're like, they're all, it's all intertwined. Well, that's cool. Yeah. So the other thing that, you know, I wanted to talk about a little bit today is, I mean, when you're talking about conservation, right? And obviously habitat's key, having the animals is key. You. There was a lot of transplants that happened to get those elk there and all that stuff is huge. But as hunters, another thing that we run into is obviously the threat of a lot of these things on ballot initiatives on. I mean, at the political level, right, where we face a lot of threats of, oh, okay, well, we have all this public land, but maybe some of that public land is going to be sold off or maybe somebody's going to. You've seen it in California, right, Where, hey, we're just gonna say that mountain lion hunting is bad and we're gonna ban it and it's gonna be illegal and every part of a mountain lion, even if legally taken, is gonna be illegal. And all this stuff where you get a ballot initiative that's really just doing the work of biologists from a point of feelings. And it doesn't work, unfortunately. Well, fortunately. And the same goes the other way, right. I don't think that on our end we should have ballot initiatives on the pro hunting side that don't work with the actual conservation, the North American model of conservation. So I think that one of the things that you guys have started is the hunt to Conserve initiative. Right. And that. So walk us through that, because I think a lot of people, obviously there's aspect of conservation, boots on the ground, land. That stuff's straightforward, but this stuff gets a little bit different because it's that political realm. It's fighting those feelings and all the stuff that people try to do to get in to. I mean, like, absolutely could have a ballot initiative that just ends hunting. Right. And then you're like, well, what? Or predator management or big game management. So talk us through that a little bit, if you don't mind.
- [26:19]
B
Yeah. You know, so as you said, I mean, The Elk Foundation RMEF is a C3. So that means it's charitable. Right. All the money we raise, tax deductible, it's charitable. You write off on your taxes, we put it back on the ground for public benefit. That really also limits your ability to lobby in politics against the things you just mentioned. So we've been very effective at advocacy, as we would call it. And that's. You know, you take our position statements. We have 20, 22, I think, position statements around, you know, we believe in public land and no wholesale transfer of that land. We believe in, you know, a lot of them revolve around management and, you know, protection of our ability to own firearms for hunting and all those type of things. We have. We have a bunch of those politics get ugly if you didn't know that. And you got to get ugly with it. Right. There's a lot of rules around it. And as. As you mentioned, unfortunately, the science and the research and the data are ignored most of the time. They really are.
- [27:22]
A
Yeah.
- [27:22]
B
It's. It's emotional. It's. You know, there's. There's a. I think there's. I've always felt. I've been. This is my 30th year in this industry. There's a huge misunderstanding of what hunting is. And I used to always, you know, argue at things. I'd be at people say, you know, illegal hunting. I'm like, there's no such thing. Hunting is legal.
- [27:40]
A
Yeah.
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B
That's called poaching.
- [27:42]
A
Right.
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B
You know, don't. Don't mix that up. And. And. But it is a big thing of people understanding the importance of hunting and what it is. And so you got all this science, you got all this research, but these ballot initiatives, as you just said, they come out and say, hunting's illegal. Stop it. Well, it's happening in Oregon right now.
- [27:59]
A
Yeah.
- [28:00]
B
You know, there's a ballot initiation there that makes it completely legal to hunt or fish. And it's going to get the signatures and probably end up on the ballot. The creation of Hunt to conserve the C4, that's its own separate board from ours. But we, our board helped build it is so the elk founders can focus on what we do best, which is the land, the habitat. You know, we'll continue to advocate for the animal, for access, for management, you know, fix your forest act, fire management, you know, all those things that we do really well. But when it gets into this uglier world, you gotta have a better arm to go fight it. You gotta fight fire with fire a little bit there. You got to get into the emotional game. You got to get in front of these elected officials, you got to have a harder call to actions, be much more in your face with the information of what's really going on. That's what that allows us to do. Because again, there's a lot of people don't like honey. I think if you look at most of the movements of this stuff, they're around a desire to not liking honey. It's an anti hunting movement more than anything. And I don't think hunting's bad. I don't think you do either. Hunting does a lot of good stuff for animals. All of us groups, not just us, all of our sister groups, ducks, turkey, pheasants, mule deer, you name it, we all work hard for the animal. A good friend of mine used to say, you don't own the monopoly on loving animals. We love these animals. Sometimes I'd say we love it more than some of those others. And so I think in a lot of cases there's a lot more in common than not. And we got to get in rooms, we've got to talk this stuff through. And you got to have this ecology, you got to have this balance. And hunting is very important to it. And all that science and all that data is great, but it doesn't win elections. You got to get in there and fight. The C3s can't do that, but the C4s can. A great example would have been Colorado. We just had that big fight on the mountain line issue down there. And we were, we were heavy in it because we know what that imbalance could do to big game. Yeah, and we won that. You know, we turned that thing from a 13 point behind to 11 point win. And the Elk foundation was involved, but we actually had to go through other partners and get involved because of limitations of what we could do. This will get rid of some of those limitations and we can rally as a body around this type of an organization. And we're not the only one. Other people have them. I just think we do it well and we need to be bigger in that fight. So you'll see us be very active here moving forward. It's in its infancy building process right now, just starting to get members to it. But it's one of those things that kind of. It kind of sits ready, and when you need to press the gas pedal on something like that, you kind of press the gas pedal to get active and try to stay ahead and keep people informed on the issues. And it'll be a great asset for hunters of all types because we'll be in all these fights for hunter's rights.
- [30:57]
A
I think that that's definitely something that's needed now. You know, I think when we look back, I mean, you know, it's probably something that we probably even should have had 10, 15 years ago. But right now it's just. It's constantly increasing, constantly increasing. And once the. Once it's gone, it doesn't come back. I mean, we look at. You look at California as the kind of example of what can happen, right? And it's like, man, the mountain lion population there is absolutely crazy. The bear population there is wild. The deer populations and the other ungulent populations. Nothing's balanced, right? And you kind of have this crazy imbalance and it's not coming back. And now you see all these things where managers are like, look, we're about to lose a sheep herd that is extremely fragile. And they're like, they're like, we absolutely have to take lethal action against these cats, right? And yet our hands have been tied. I think they actually made a few changes where they're gonna be able to do that. But, yeah, I mean, they're really seeing the ramifications of it. And it's like, we gotta be able to have something like this that can step in and kind of prevent it from happening in a way. I mean, that's the ideal situation.
- [32:12]
B
I was gonna add. It's also why we've jumped so hard into the research and science, right? I mean, unfortunately, in the political world, you can buy the research and science and data you want, too. It's like, well, what research and science and data are you following? And we've always tried to follow state agencies, but in some states, that's not what it used to be either. In some states, agencies are not allowed even to speak on ballot initiatives. So who's speaking to those? So we've also jumped in higher because we Are if you look at our stuff, research, science, data based. And so we're not just funding research and science, we're actually leading some of those things now. And it all kind of ties together. We're all for the balance. Right. We're not for the. At least the Elk Foundation. We're not for the removal of anything. We're for that balance ecology, using that science. And as you said. Yeah. Can you claw it back when it's gone? Yeah, but it's going to take generations and generations. It's easier to do it now and work together. You know, Again, we all love animals. We love all the animals, but there's a balance that has to be had. And unfortunately, it's fought through politics and, you know, appointments of commissions and, you know, state agencies and ballot initiatives and all these things. And, boy, it's a lot to handle and manage. And, you know, hunters as a whole have to rally together on these things. You know, I think we were looking at this Oregon battle initiative, and the last time it happened, I believe. Don't quote me on it exactly, but I believe they said 11% of hunters voted in Oregon. We got to have a bigger turnout than that on some of these things that are coming out. So we all got to work together. You know, what you're doing with this and all that, just to get people to really just be knowledgeable about what it means. Because it's easy sometimes to go, yeah, but that's not going to affect my whitetail hunting. Well, maybe not today.
- [33:59]
A
Right.
- [33:59]
B
But eventually it could. And, you know, and some of that's to see for, too. And that is that education side of understanding these ballot issues. When you read them, they're hard to even understand. And not just in the Honeywell, anybody walking by asking for a signature, and you read it and you're like, I don't even understand what you're asking. That's intentional and really intentional in these ones that we've been fighting on the hunting world.
- [34:25]
A
Yeah. The other thing is, I think a lot of people don't realize, too, is when you get those signatures, right, you have the wording in that ballot initiative that's intentionally deceptive. Right. So it's like you look at it from the title and you might. The average person might think, oh, it would be great to have more whatever. Right. But it's actually, in a way, very deceptive on what that title is. But because they got the signatures, they get the title, and that's a. It's a game that everybody plays. Right. But you look at it. And they, they're confusing to a lot of people.
- [35:00]
B
Well, you know, I remember the trophy hunting one. There was wording in some of the trophy hunting ones that said if you take a tooth, an ivory, an antler, any of the cape, all of that, it's now trophy hunting. That's how it was defined, right?
- [35:16]
A
Yeah.
- [35:17]
B
Like, well, that's not true. I don't even know what trophy hunting is really. Right. Like, I mean, you and I and us. I mean, you're hunting like with your wife. I thought that was one of the coolest videos. That's a trophy. No matter what size the animal is, no matter how big the animal is, how old it is, it's a trophy because of what it went through and, and, and just the whole impact that it had. So that trophy hunting thing gets used a lot. And all of a sudden you or I or you take a Steve Rinella, who uses every piece of an animal for everything goes through. Now it's trophy hunting because you know that trapping, whatever it may be, now you use that fur for something which we should be doing on these things. Now that's considered trophy basically bans all hunting.
- [35:59]
A
Yeah.
- [36:00]
B
And that's where we get to these attempts sometimes is to really shut down hunting as a whole. And that's where we got to get active because again, we're all for humane processes with any animals. That's not what this is about. It's about a culture and the importance of hunting and the ecology and the balance of all these animals going back to 1984. I think it's one of our best sayings we own. It's called working for wildlife. And everything we do is that about this organization. Everything we do is about working for wildlife.
- [36:30]
A
You mentioned research projects, and I know that there was one. I think we talked about it earlier, but I definitely want to talk about this one is the mule deer fire research project in Utah. Because that's one that I think one of the fire is definitely an issue. Right? It's an issue, but it's also how a lot of populations spike and explode and whatever. And some animals and groups of animals benefit more and then some are more affected. And then also we have a lot of problems after the fire, how it regrows. Right. We, we've as humans, we've altered the landscape so much that, you know, we have a lot of, a lot of issues that are not just, you know, it's like, okay, maybe 500 years ago when a fire happened, the regrowth would be a certain way, but it's not that way anymore because of invasive species, invasive, you know, wild horses and other things on the range, lack of water or whatever uses. So things have changed. And I think that it's interesting to see what those changes are and how it affects certain animals. So walk me through a little bit of this project, if you don't mind.
- [37:41]
B
Yeah. This project's in Utah. And, you know, many years ago, I think, I think our biologist here said it was over 10 years ago these, these biologgers were implanted in mule deer.
- [37:51]
A
Yeah.
- [37:51]
B
And the whole point was to really watch, you know, how the animal responded, whether it's heart rate, you know, fat retaining, you know, nutrition, and then also, of course, where they're going and what they're doing. And as you said, we've always really done a good job after fire with the habitat, but this study really figures out, well, how did it truly affect the animal? And if you measure the level of that fire, you know, a prescribed burn, as we know, is very positive in most cases, but as that fire gets larger, as it gets hotter, it has longer impacts. And it doesn't just impact the mule deer. It impacts their predators and all these other pieces. So it really gets into measuring those type of things so we can understand. You know, I think to try to make it a little easier, where, where does fire go from being good thing to bad thing to really a bad thing. And watching how the animals respond to that is kind of the key to this piece. And these, these biologgers. I remember the time I first heard that word. I'm like, what kind of person is that? You know, what kind of logger is that? I didn't even know what it was, but learned a lot about it. And, and then, you know, as we get into, we can really look at, you know, how these, how these changes in a post fire, that vegetation, the deer's diets, this is really all around mule deer at some point. Love to see this in elk as well.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah.
- [39:13]
B
But again, you know, elk are. They just really adapt better. Mule deer a little tougher. So that, that's kind of where we're. We're focusing these things. So I, I'm really, you know, I'm not the smartest guy. I love reading this stuff to learn.
- [39:26]
A
Yeah.
- [39:26]
B
And, you know, this is our second lead research project by rmef. Our first one was on vegetation in the east and learning some of that we talked about earlier.
- [39:36]
A
Yeah.
- [39:37]
B
But this is kind of the second one where we've jumped in and we're taking lead on this deal. So I think it's going to be really interesting and then how we, how that impacts and overlays other research we may do around, around fire and other animals as well.
- [39:51]
A
Yeah, that's awesome. I mean it's one of those things like you have your theories, right? And I mean as an outfitter and guide and been in an area that had a massive fire and you see, okay, you see this population boom and then it now like you see a lot of pine encroachment and other things where you go okay, well maybe the animals are a little bit safer from predation then. But there's not as much nutrient and all these other things. Like it'd be really interesting to link that to their body condition, their stress levels, their, all those things and say and have actual clear data that you can say here's what this means. And also on the conservation side it really lets you know, okay, when you look at an area, what exactly in habitat is the right combination of things? What are we looking for here? And it allows us to provide feedback and so many things based on that science and not just emotion which as long as we keep doing that we really do have the winning argument every time. And just having that data is so important.
- [40:56]
B
Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like we've done like man, we've researched everything that can be researched. And like you say it's always changing, the landscape's always changing, animals are changing, evolving, the ecology is always moving. So there's always more research to be done. And that's kind of, I think where this is at. It's not, this is not the first time, you know, any kind of fire research has been done. But when you look at, you know, the really our objectives but is to create these lasting benefits from this forge and cover is really understanding when you understand the impact of these fires, you know where to go back and do targeted prescribed burning. Not just because it, you know, a lot of times we do and we, and we support this as well. You're doing fire mitigation around saving houses and farms and all that kind of stuff. But then this is really targeted on where can we go in and do these, these burns because of the impact it has on the animal in that, in their forage and so forth. So it's a little different approach I think than, than what we've done in the past. And then if I'm right On this like 10 year of data with these biologgers, however, whatever that time frame is, it's a really good amount of data to base this science on. And anytime you can do the work with good science, yeah, you're going to get good results.
- [42:11]
A
That's cool. I'm really interested to hear more about that and see just even for the fact of on the hunting ass. Well, the other thing too is like, as a hunter, I love those kind of research projects because it gives me a little bit of insight and edge. Right. To apply to your hunt strategy. And the thing that I talk about more than anything is understanding the animal is key. If you know the animal and every in and out of the animal, what they're thinking, what they want, you can go anywhere and be successful. And so if you like, okay, after this many years, what are some of the plants that we're seeing after a 4, 5, 6 year burn, where are they benefiting? Because they're going to be seeking those out. And then you can match up your tactics with the knowledge that you have that comes from that kind of research. And it can be beneficial. I mean, I've read through a lot of studies and a lot of things and it's benefited me in a lot of ways because it allows me to kind of pinpoint or focus on a hunting tactic that maybe other people aren't thinking about or maybe they don't understand. They see something, but they don't understand why. And I think that that why is really important for successful hunters. So these studies are always fun. Like there, there are a lot of hunters out there that read them for that, like additional knowledge just to understand the animals that we're hunting.
- [43:28]
B
I say that with, you know, even our outdoor class stuff a little bit. And we've got, we've got this new thing working on. Next time we get together, we'll be further down the road on these best practice management practice. Internally, we call them BMPs.
- [43:40]
A
Yeah.
- [43:41]
B
But, but externally, what we're going to call them is restore an elk country. Right. That's what it's going to be around. But we've got about 10 or 12 different programs of best practices we're working on. And one of those big ones right now is aspen restoration, which I've learned a ton about how hard that is and encroachment, weed encroachment and what that all goes into. But ultimately, in the end, as I've talked to staff, here I go. The good thing about all this, it's great, all the science and the biology and all that, but we can make people a better hunter.
- [44:15]
A
Yeah.
- [44:16]
B
If, if they really understand all you're. I mean, you're nailing it. And, you know, I. I'm not a great hunter from that standpoint, by any means, but some of the best outfitters I've been around. Exactly. But they can read the habitat and. And they've just learned it through experience. I think we can turn that into being a part of this outdoor class a little bit. Here's why we do it for the animal. But then here's really how that animal reacts and how it can maybe make. Help you. Help you read that. Read the land a little better.
- [44:43]
A
That's awesome. Yeah. I actually think I was like, if you broke down some of these studies and other things, people. To where people can understand what that means, you can learn so much. And that's like. I know, like, one of the first outdoor classes I did was mule deer hunting one, and it really just like, broke down. Understanding the animal. Why does a meal deer do what it does? And if you can understand why it does what it does. You know, I think it's like that thing of you can give someone a recipe or you can teach them how to cook. That's what I like about outdoor classes. A lot of it is teaching people how to cook. It gives you that, like, when you get out there and you get in a different situation, it teaches you how to understand that situation and find success. And it's a good. It's a great way to do it because it's easy to learn. You can see it. You can. Here. There's experts that are. That's the one thing that I enjoy about it is, like, I would go on and listen to these people because they are absolutely the expert in that field. You know, I mean, you got guys. Randy Newberg's got stuff. Corey Jacobson, I mean, that guy. Like, we have, like, very similar. It's funny, I love talking with Corey because, like, the way he elk hunts and the way that I elk hunt are almost identical, yet we came to that conclusion completely separately. So it's like, sometimes you just find the best solution and you're like, wow, it's really validating to hear that somebody else likes to hunt the way that I like to hunt. But then there's other people that hunt completely different, and yet they're still successful, and there's. There's something to be learned from that. So it's cool. It's a. It's a cool program. And you guys. The RMEF has pretty much taken over outdoor class now, correct?
- [46:22]
B
Yeah, we did. You know, we. We were partnered with a couple other people on it, Randy and Corey were both partnered in on it. And you know, the beginnings of this go back to, to, to Corey's Elk 101 is where the basis of this was. But we 100% own it now. And we're, we're turning it much more into a member benefit. As, as it progresses and changes as, as, as a, you know, level of a member of this organization, you get, you get access to all this stuff all the time and you know, the goal and one of the issues gets back into kind of the C3, C4 thing we're talking about. As a C3, we struggled working with a partner that was for profit and we're a nonprofit. Well, we weren't really into this to make money per se. We're in it to gain members and do all that. But we were in to educate.
- [47:08]
A
Yeah.
- [47:08]
B
And get the best SMEs. You can get those subject matter experts like yourself and Randy and Corey and you know, John and Christy. I mean all the people we have coming up and build this thing out to be. Nothing against YouTube videos. There's great stuff out of there, but as you said, the platform and how we're doing it and how we approach it and the modules and the layers of those modules and going back and revisit how deep we can get into specifics, I think it just becomes the, really the home of where you can go to and learn this stuff, especially by animal. You've been applying for that mule deer tag for 10 years and you get it. I go listen to what Remy's got to say on outdoor class. Before I went out there, I can tell you that, you know, I don't know where there's better information before you hit the woods and understand that, but it also never ends. You know, two more years of hunting, you're going to go back and say, hey, I want to redo some of this. I learned something new. I changed something. And we're always going to do that as well. So us owning it really allows us, I think, to expand the use of it and grow it beyond just being a for profit endeavor, to really make it a mission endeavor for us and a benefit for our members and supporters.
- [48:17]
A
That's awesome. Yeah, that's great. And I know you can still go outdoorclass.com and, and get those courses and that's, I mean, if you, if, if you haven't done it, I mean, you can, you can listen to the podcast and you get a ton of information, but to be able to see certain things, I think it's very beneficial and Then you can get. With the. Once you're on outdoor class, you can get all the. All the courses within there. The other thing I wanted to mention, too, so the. We talked about the Hunt to Conserve is that that's its own membership. Correct. And then does it have. It has its own website to get on that?
- [48:52]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's just hunt the number two conserve.com and you can go join. It's its own board, its own entity, its own finance. It's separate from the rmef. The RMEF was like, the founding creator of it for a reason, but it's its own deal.
- [49:09]
A
Okay. Yeah. So the Hunt to Conserve, I guess, or probably is it.org it might be.org.
- [49:16]
B
Sorry. Yeah, that's true. Yep.
- [49:18]
A
Obviously. Rocky Mountain Elk foundation, if you guys aren't members, be a member. This is the kind of stuff that your contribution goes to. And if you are a member, consider being a life member. Or consider. You know, there's always those things you get in the mail, and it's like, hey, this whatever. You know, these are the projects that we have coming up. You know, consider an extra donation. Because this is. This is what it does. It allows, you know, habitat improvements. It allows access for hunters. It allows the critical thing of growing populations. It's like we're all concerned about the hardest. My podcast last week was talking about how difficult it is to draw tags in application strategy. I'm like, if there's more animals, there's more tags. Problem solved, right? Like, if you got way more animals, there's way more tags, and we don't have to worry about. And how do we do that? Through habitat, through conservation, through efforts like this that Rocky Mountain Elk foundation are putting forth. So, you know, I always encourage everyone, be a member, support it, find a local chapter, get out, do some helping. There's so many ways that you can, you know, get involved. It's. It's awesome to be able to kind of give back to the animals that we love to chase for. Sure.
- [50:32]
B
Yeah. We appreciate that. And, you know, we have a great staff. We have great partners like yourself, a board that's very dedicated. But in the end, we're successful because of our volunteers that help raise. I always say they raise, you know, millions of dollars, 20 bucks at a time. They give us their most precious thing, which is their time. You know, the amount of time these volunteers put into this organization and our members and our, you know, our donors and supporters in the industry, and we bring all that together in this machine, and that's what allows us to do what we do, and I think we do a good job of it. I know every conversation we have, we had a board meeting yesterday, and we're constantly talking about our fiduciary responsibility with our money. Are we making the best impact that we think we can make with those funds? And that's always at the heart of every decision we do, and it allows us to do this work. And I think we're really on kind of the precipice of some. Some really impactful stuff may not be as big. You know, we have the saying here. I think since we started, we've conserved nearly one square mile a day since we've been around. I don't know if we keep those numbers up forever because there's only so much land, but I think the impact we can make, whether it's, you know, reserving that right to hunt, to create the habitat or. Or those, you know, those levels of access to the animal and the animals themselves. I always joke with elk. The elk's probably the hardest one. You have this scientific quota that states have. This is the population we need. And you talk to hunters and go, man, that ain't enough. And you talk to the right rancher and he goes, man, we got way too many. And so sometimes you're trying to meet all those demands in there. And we work hard to try to do that.
- [52:17]
A
Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Kyle, for joining me. I know people really appreciate you jumping on and hearing this kind of stuff, and it's fun to. You know, we talk about hunting a lot, but without the conservation aspect, once again, there is no hunting. So thank you so much for all the work that you guys do and thanks for. For taking the time today to. To jump on the podcast.
- [52:40]
B
Thank you. I just want to thank you and thank you for, like, your partnership with us and the work you do. So it means a lot.
- [52:45]
A
Yeah. Thank you. So, until next week, we're just going to say I like an awkward goodbye elk on. We'll catch you guys later.