Annie Rauwerda, Ivan McClellan, and Sami Braman (REBROADCAST)

Summary

Live Wire with Luke Burbank: Episode Summary – January 24, 2025

Live Wire with Luke Burbank, hosted by Luke Burbank and produced by PRX, dives deep into eclectic and culturally rich topics each week. The January 24, 2025 episode features a rebroadcast with insightful conversations from Annie Rauwerda, Ivan McClellan, and Sammy Braman. This summary captures the essence of their discussions, key insights, and memorable moments from the episode.

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1. Episode Introduction

Luke Burbank opens the show with an engaging overview of the episode's content, highlighting the unique guests and topics to be covered:

• Annie Rauwerda: Creator of the social media account Depths of Wikipedia, which showcases the most absurd and delightfully weird entries from Wikipedia.
• Ivan McClellan: A renowned photojournalist whose latest book, Eight Seconds, explores black cowboy culture in America.
• Sammy Braman: A folk fiddle master performing live from the Pickathon Music Festival.

Luke Burbank [00:02]: "This week on the show, we are sinking to some new depths, but in a good way. We're entering the depths of Wikipedia with Annie Ruerda..."

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2. News Highlights

a. Regrowth of a Sycamore Tree at Hadrian's Wall

Elena Passarello shares a heartening story about the regeneration of a beloved sycamore tree at Hadrian's Wall in England. After an act of vandalism in which the tree was chopped down, scientists preserved its genetic material. Recently, a park service officer named Gary Pickles discovered new shoots emerging from the stump, signaling hope for the tree's revival.

Elena Passarello [05:10]: "It's kind of like normal people... the tree is regenerating itself."

Gary Pickles' quote [07:36]: "Oh, you're back, are you? Aw, it's just so."

b. Bowser the Tortoise’s Adventure

The best news segment features Bowser, a nine-year-old tortoise from Southeast Portland, who escaped his home for two days. After a community-wide search involving police officers distributing water during a heatwave, Bowser was safely found and returned to his relieved family.

Elena Passarello [09:02]: "Oh, no, it's Bowser."

Luke Burbank [09:46]: "He's throwing fireballs... Bowser is now safely back at home where Bowser belongs."

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3. Featured Guests

a. Ivan McClellan – Eight Seconds

Ivan McClellan, a photojournalist, discusses his evocative book Eight Seconds, which delves into the vibrant black cowboy culture in America. His work challenges the stereotypical portrayal of cowboys in media and celebrates a rich, underrepresented community.

• Early Perceptions of Black Cowboys: McClellan reflects on his upbringing in Kansas City, Kansas, where black cowboys were present but invisible in mainstream media.

  Ivan McClellan [11:17]: "Like, watching that and the Beverly Hillbillies... I didn't know anything about the history and really didn't identify the people around me like that."

• Journey to Documenting Culture: His transition from feeling out of place in Portland’s predominantly white environment to immersing himself in black rodeo culture in Oklahoma.

  Ivan McClellan [12:58]: "Thousands of black cowboys... a beautiful mixture of western culture with black culture that I was familiar with."

• Photography Challenges: Using a medium format camera to capture fleeting moments in rodeo action, despite the technical difficulties.

  Ivan McClellan [20:02]: "I shoot with a medium format camera... which is the exact wrong camera to shoot action with."

• Founding the Juneteenth Rodeo: As the CEO of the 8Seconds Juneteenth Rodeo in Portland, McClellan highlights the event's role in celebrating black heritage and promoting community pride.

  Ivan McClellan [21:07]: "There's a lot of pride in the community here. It's a gathering of the black community. Everybody's welcome."

b. Annie Rauwerda – Depths of Wikipedia

Annie Rauwerda, the creative mind behind Depths of Wikipedia, shares insights into her project that curates the most peculiar and fascinating Wikipedia entries.

• Origins of the Project: Started during the COVID-19 lockdown, Annie began collecting quirky Wikipedia facts to entertain her friends, which eventually attracted a massive audience.

  Annie Rauwerda [28:16]: "Covid hit and so suddenly I had all this free time and I was reading about stolen and missing moon rocks or the timeline of the far future."

• What Makes a Great Entry: Relatability and the inherent intrigue of the stories featured, such as Penelope the platypus’s quirky behavior or the infamous Kentucky Meat Shower.

  Annie Rauwerda [29:58]: "It's really great when there's an element of relatability in stories."

• Wikipedia’s Reliability and Rules: Discusses how Wikipedia has evolved from a free-for-all to a more regulated platform with hierarchies and guidelines to maintain accuracy.

  Annie Rauwerda [41:16]: "You should be a little bit skeptical of things you read on Wikipedia... it's the largest and most accessible source of knowledge that humanity has ever had."

• Interactive Segments: Engages in a disambiguation game where she identifies the correct term based on various descriptions, demonstrating the complexity and breadth of Wikipedia entries.

  Annie Rauwerda [31:09]: "The pizza meter was an informal measure of if the US is about to have a big military action."

c. Sammy Braman – Riveter

Sammy Braman, a talented folk fiddle musician, discusses his debut solo record Riveter and his experiences performing at the Pickathon Music Festival.

• Musical Influences: Blends traditional fiddle tunes from Appalachia, Cape Breton, and Irish music with contemporary sounds, creating a unique and danceable style.

  Sammy Braman [45:37]: "I'm obsessed with learning and uncovering old tunes from Appalachia... and music from Louisiana and Scandinavia."

• Growth and Performances: From forming a string band at age eight to touring extensively and winning prestigious awards, Sammy's journey showcases his dedication to music.

  Sammy Braman [46:57]: "I feel like it's dance music to the core... that's what the music needs to be—something that makes people wanna dance."

• Life in Nashville: Adapted to the vibrant music scene in Nashville, embracing opportunities to perform live regularly and drawing inspiration from the city's dynamic environment.

  Sammy Braman [47:22]: "Nashville is... inspiring. I wanted to be the worst fiddler in the room, and that's been my experience."

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4. Interactive Listener Engagement

• Wikipedia Deep Dives: Elena Passarello shares listeners' intriguing Wikipedia exploration experiences, ranging from etymologies of fruit names to detailed entries on obscure agreements like the Northeast Interstate Dairy Compact.

  Elena Passarello [26:17]: "Carl's latest Wikipedia wormhole involved going through fruit names one by one and reading their etymologies."

• Disambiguation Challenge: Annie participates in a live game where she identifies correct terms based on multiple disambiguated descriptions, enhancing listener engagement and showcasing the depth of her project.

  Luke Burbank [38:08]: "It is a brand of automobiles produced by the Ford Motor Company from 1938 to 2011... metallic chemical element with the symbol H.G. – Mercury."

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5. Musical Performance

Sammy Braman delivers a captivating live performance of his track "Riveter" at the Pickathon Music Festival, illustrating his mastery of the fiddle and his ability to blend traditional and modern musical elements seamlessly.

Sammy Braman [48:03]: "This is a tune called Riveter, which is the title track of my album."

The performance resonates with the audience, showcasing the emotional depth and infectious energy of his music.

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6. Closing Remarks and Credits

Luke Burbank wraps up the episode by thanking the guests—Annie Rauwerda, Ivan McClellan, and Sammy Braman—and acknowledging the support from sponsors like Powell's Books and Secret Aardvark hot sauce. He previews the next week's special Black History Month episode, featuring conversations with poet Tracy K. Smith and writer Saeed Jones.

Luke Burbank [53:20]: "A huge thanks to our guests Annie Rueda, Ivan McClellan and Sammy Braman."

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Notable Quotes

• Ivan McClellan [20:02]: "I shoot with a medium format camera... which is the exact wrong camera to shoot action with."
• Annie Rauwerda [41:16]: "You should be a little bit skeptical of things you read on Wikipedia... it's the largest and most accessible source of knowledge that humanity has ever had."
• Sammy Braman [46:57]: "I feel like it's dance music to the core... that's what the music needs to be—something that makes people wanna dance."

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Conclusion

This episode of Live Wire with Luke Burbank masterfully intertwines diverse topics—from the resurgence of a historic tree and the adventurous journey of a tortoise to the rich tapestry of black cowboy culture and the whimsical depths of Wikipedia. With compelling conversations and lively performances, the episode offers listeners a profound and entertaining exploration of culture, history, and the quirky corners of knowledge.

For those who missed the episode, Live Wire with Luke Burbank continues to deliver thought-provoking and delightful content each week, blending insightful interviews with captivating stories and music.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, there. Welcome to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank. This week on the show, we are sinking to some new depths, but in a good way. We're entering the depths of Wikipedia with Annie Ruarda. She created the social media account which highlights some of the more absurd, more delightfully weird entries found on Wikipedia. Like the Kentucky Meat show, which I'm guessing exactly none of you have heard about, which is why you tune into Livewire each week. Anyway, we're gonna hear from Annie. We're also going to talk to photojournalist Ivan McClellan. His work has been featured in all kinds of places. His latest project is the book eight Seconds, which explores black cowboy culture in America through some incredible photographs. After this interview, I bought two copies of this book. That is how good the book is. Then. Speaking of things that are very good, we've got music from folk fiddle master Sammy Braman, recorded live at Pickathon. Stick around for this week's Livewire. It's going to be great. And it gets started right after this.

[Lacey Healey]

Hi, it's Lacey Healey. When members of Congress and even the vice president are sworn into office, they say an oath to protect the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. But what does a domestic enemy look like?

[Luke Burbank]

January 6th, it was coming from the top. Some of them are bad people, but most of them are just normal people.

[Lacey Healey]

As if we weren't all stressed out enough. This season on Things that Go Boom, we're turning our eyes on the US how violence starts, how it stops, and how we stop it before it starts. A new season of Things that Go Boom is available now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Luke Burbank]

Livewire is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it at Progressive, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. This episode of Livewire was originally recorded in August of 2024. We hope you enjoy it. Now let's get to the show. Hey, Alaina.

[Elena Passarello]

Hey, Luke. How's it going?

[Luke Burbank]

It's going great. Hey, are you ready to play a little station location identification examination?

[Elena Passarello]

Absolutely.

[Luke Burbank]

This is where I quiz Elena on a place in the country where Livewire is on the radio. She's got to guess where I am talking about. This city is home to something called the Two Cent Bridge, which was built in 1901 as a privately owned toll bridge. Can you guess how much the 2 cent bridge charged Elena for toll.

[Elena Passarello]

It better be 2 cents.

[Luke Burbank]

It was exactly 2 cents. And then in 1981, they abolished the toll altogether. This is in the Northeast.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay, good. Yeah, I worried that maybe there might be a bunch of places with 2 cent bridges, but I know Colby College in Maine. There's a two cent bridge. Right by there is the town Colby, Maine.

[Luke Burbank]

Passarello, you've done it again. Because Colby College is in Waterville, Maine, home of the two cent bridge. The place we're talking about, the place where people tune in on WM EW on Main public to listen to Livewire. So congratulations, you've. You've. You've won the game once again.

[Elena Passarello]

Thanks to the good people of Colby College for putting that factoid in my head.

[Luke Burbank]

Exactly.

[Elena Passarello]

All right, let's get to the show from prx. It's Livewire. This week, the depths of Wikipedia founder Annie Roerda.

[Annie Rauada]

Today, in the age of AI, when Google results kind of already are deteriorating, sometimes it's the only search result that you get that's written by humans.

[Elena Passarello]

Photographer Ivan McClellan.

[Ivan McClellan]

Like, my mom took us to see Tombstone and there were no black people in that movie at all. Like, no extras. I don't even think there was a black horse in that movie. Like, it was this.

[Elena Passarello]

With music from Sammy Braman and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello. And now the host of Livewire, Luke Burbank.

[Luke Burbank]

Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in from all over the country, including waterville, ME on wmew. We have a corker of a show for you this week. Of course, we asked the Livewire listeners a question. The question was, tell us about your most recent Wikipedia deep dive. This is related to Annie Ruerda's hilarious social media feed, the Depths of Wikipedia. We're going to hear those responses coming up in a moment. First, though, we got to kick things off with the best news we heard all week. This right here is our little reminder there's good news happening out there in the world. Elena, what is the best news that you heard all week?

[Elena Passarello]

Okay. Starts with worst news, ends with best news. Okay. So bear with me. Have you ever heard of Hadrian's Wall?

[Luke Burbank]

Yes, I have. It's that cool stone wall in, like, England or something.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, it's at the tippety top of England near the Scottish border. It's like 1900 years old. It's a Roman wall. And for several centuries, there was this gap at this gap in Hadrian's wall, There was this beautiful sycamore tree that stood right where the kind of. The wall had kind of fallen down. And it was the source of, like, multiple Instagram things and calendars, and people got married under the tree, got proposed to under the tree. It was really a community staple. Generations of families would have certain kinds of rituals that they would do near that tree. And last year, Luke, someone chopped it down. Someone just felled the tree.

[Luke Burbank]

I saw a photo of that. It was so depressing.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, act of vandalism. The trial is actually set for this fall, so they've apprehended people and have put them on trial. But here's some good news. So everyone's still sort of reeling from this tragedy. And actually, when the tree was felled, scientists immediately took these cuttings from the tree, seeds and genetic material. So even though the tree wouldn't stand anymore, the stump is still there. Its offspring maybe would get a chance to thrive there or somewhere else. But not too long ago, a few weeks ago, there was a park service officer named. And I love this person's name. Gary Pickles. Gary Pickles was walking past the gap in Hadrian's Wall, and he bent down and he saw these little sycamore shoots popping up right next to the trunk. And now, I told you that they took those cuttings. Those haven't been transplanted at all. These were actually offspring of the actual tre. The stump and roots of which still stand. So the tree is regenerating itself. And so he took a bunch of pictures and then tried not to draw too much attention to it, because not only did they not want too many tourists to be aware of this or to. To maybe trample it or whatever, they're also very worried about deer. So they put these barricades up around the sycamore gap, and hopefully this is the sign of rebirth, regrowth. And I have to tell you, Gary Pickles, my favorite Northumberland park ranger, this is what he said when he saw the chutes, according to the New York Times. Oh, you're back, are you? Aw, it's just so.

[Luke Burbank]

So English to be a mosquito flying past Gary Pickles as he uttered that standing by Hadrian's Wall. I love that. Yeah, that was such a bummer when that tree came down. It's nice to know that it's on its way back, however long that takes. Speaking of things that take kind of a long time, my best news, Elena, this week comes from Southeast Portland, an area that we know well, and a tortoise named Bowser, which I'm just gonna tell you. Great name for a tortoise. I'm assuming it's related to Mario Brothers, right? Bowser. Bowser is a nine year old tortoise. And Bowser, in a very untortoise like way, escaped from his home and was gone for two days. And Bowser's family, including Jasmine, Spur Greg, were very bummed about Bowser disappearing. They love Bowser. They say it in their family. They love to joke that their great grandkids will hang out with Bowser because Bowser's gonna live to be like 125 or something. So Bowser goes MIA and they're looking everywhere. They can't find Bowser. Bowser gets a mile and a half away and is like walking down the spring water corridor, which if you're from Portland, you know what that is. These police officers are out with water because it's been very hot and they were out trying to, you know, give people water and just check on everyone, make sure they're okay. They look over, they see a tortoise strolling down the path.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, no, it's Bowser.

[Luke Burbank]

And so they take Bowser to an animal shelter. And the animal shelter got in touch with Jasmine Sprague and said, we might have your tortoise here. And so they were reunited with Bowser. By the way, this story was sent in by listener Julie in Portland. We always love to get best news suggestions from the listeners. This was the part that really, really shocked me. This was Bowser's third escape. Like, we may need to invest in some new security measures. Bowser has been found chasing chickens.

[Elena Passarello]

He's a Mario Brothers character.

[Luke Burbank]

He really is.

[Elena Passarello]

He's been hopping from mushroom to mushroom.

[Luke Burbank]

He's been throwing fireballs. He's been punching boxes that have coins in them. Like, Bowser is apparently a very active tortoise, but is now safely back at home where Bowser belongs. So that is the best news that I heard all week coming right out of Portland, Oregon. All right, let's bring our first guest out. He is a photojournalist and designer whose work has been featured in ESPN, GQ, and the New York Times. His new book is 8 Seconds, and it explores black cowboy culture in America through photographs. And this is a culture that has been around for a long time. In fact, it predates Beyonce making it cool with her latest album, if you can believe that. Also, this guy is the rodeo boss, right? Which is the real term of the 8 seconds Juneteenth Rodeo that happens in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen to Ivan McClellan. We recorded this at the Patricia Reaser center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. Ivan, welcome to the show.

[Ivan McClellan]

Yeah, thanks for having me on here.

[Luke Burbank]

This book is phenomenal. I mean, just the photography in it is incredible. The subjects. The subject matter, which I think a lot of people maybe aren't as aware of. I'm curious, growing up, what was your sense of the existence of black cowboy culture?

[Ivan McClellan]

You know, I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas. There were black cowboys around, but I didn't really think of them as cowboys because, like, my mom took us to see Tombstone, and there were no black people in that movie at all. Like, no extras. I don't even think there was a black horse in that movie. It is pristine white. And so, like, watching that and the Beverly Hillbillies and Bonanza reruns and Gunsmoke and stuff like that, I thought, well, Mr. Wills down the street has cows, but he's not a cowboy, because that's what white guys do. We would go to church on Sundays, and we would stop by a place called Benjamin Ranch, and we would ride horses in our church clothes every once in a while.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm surprised that you were allowed to do that.

[Ivan McClellan]

Yeah, Grandma would let us do it every once in a while. We couldn't do it every Sunday. It was something that I enjoyed. Whenever we'd have, like, the church picnic, they would have pigs and cows. So we were like country, and we kind of thought of our upbringing like that. But. But cowboy in really wasn't. Wasn't anything that I recognized or identified.

[Luke Burbank]

With because the pop culture of it was so dominantly white.

[Ivan McClellan]

Yeah, there was. You know, I didn't see any black country singers. I didn't see. You know, we would see, like, you would see a black man in a cowboy hat, but that was like in Blazing Saddles, Sheriff Bart, or Pee Wee's Playhouse.

[Elena Passarello]

Cowboy Curtis.

[Ivan McClellan]

Cowboy Curtis, yeah, was on there. And so it was just sort of like a joke. Like, what if a black guy was a cowboy, wouldn't that be funny? Was sort of the thinking that I had. But I didn't know anything about the history and really didn't identify the people around me like that.

[Luke Burbank]

How did you then end up at the Roy LeBlanc Invitational?

[Ivan McClellan]

So I left Kansas City, Kansas. I moved to New York City, started a design career, ended up getting a job out in Portland in 2011 at the companies that I worked for. There would be like 200 people there, and I'd be the only black person. So I felt really uncomfortable. I had Imposter syndrome and was just sort of wearing chinos, and nobody knew who Luther Vandross was. And it was just like, sort of, like, awkward. So I was at a party one day, and this filmmaker came up to me, and I turned around. He's a black guy, tall black guy, salt and pepper Afro. His name's Charles Perry. I asked him what he was working on, and he said, I'm working on a movie about black cowboys. I said, oh, like a western? He said, no, a documentary. And I think I laughed at him because I was like, where did you find these black cowboys at to do your documentary? And he was like, well, come with me to Okmokee, Oklahoma, this summer. There's a black rodeo down there. I want you to come down and take pictures and see it for yourself. And I went. It was 105 degrees down there. It was 100% humidity. There were grasshoppers jumping on my clothes. I was wearing my work chinos, and I was wearing wingtips with no socks. And there were, like, chiggers biting my ankles. It was pretty rough. But there were thousands of black cowboys, thousands of them, and they were doing the Cupid shuffle in their boots, and they were riding horses in Jordans with no shirt and chains. And, you know, women were riding the barrels with their braids blowing behind them and their acrylic nails clutching the reins. And it was just like this beautiful mixture of western culture with black culture that I was familiar with.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Livewire from PRX. We are talking to photojournalist Ivan McClellan about his new book, 8 Seconds, which captures black rodeo culture across America. When we return, Ivan is going to tell us how he learned to dress the part of being a cowboy, which included not wearing his cowboy hat backwards, which was an issue initially for him. So more with Ivan in just a moment here on livewire. Special thanks to our sponsor, Up Up Books, a Portland bookshop specializing in diverse authors, local writers, and independent presses. They're located across from Revolution hall in the Buckman neighborhood, and they offer a space for book clubs, workshops, and events. Check out their website and grab a [e-mail] welcome back to Livewire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. We are listening to a conversation we recorded with Ivan McClellan, talking about his book of photographs called Eight Seconds. It documents black rodeo culture. Let's pick that conversation up now. We recorded this at the Patricia Reaser center of the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. When did you start to think, okay, this Actually should be a book.

[Ivan McClellan]

You know, it was years. I mean, this was 2015 that I went to my first rodeo. And I kept going back year after year just to be immersed in the culture, because I loved it. I loved the fashion. I loved the smoked turkey legs. I loved all of it. Just being there was like a vacation for me. So I ended up going to, like, 10 of these rodeos a year around the country.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, wow.

[Ivan McClellan]

And really didn't do anything with the photos for a long time. My wife eventually was like, hey, this is kind of expensive. What are you doing? What's the move? And I started an Instagram account and started posting the photos on there. And people were really receptive. A lot of people were like, oh, I didn't know anything about this either. Black folks and white folks alike. So that started moving. It was really during the pandemic that I was like, I think I've got something here. Portland was shut down. Everybody was double masked. When they were, like, running, it was like the apocalypse here. Oklahoma. Nope, the pandemic didn't happen there. For some reason. It was completely open. People were eating at Chili's and they were having, like, these rodeos with people on top of each other. So I was, like, taking pandemic vacations down to Oklahoma and really, really got into the work during that period. And it started to get started to develop into a book around then.

[Luke Burbank]

There's a forward in this book that's written by the bull rider who happens to be a black man, Charlie Sampson. And it's kind of charming because he's complimenting you and how he felt really connected to you when he met you, but also that you did not know your way around a horse. Yeah, he was calling you out for being, you know, a bit of a tenderfoot or whatever.

[Ivan McClellan]

In my own book. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, right. And you included it. I wonder what that was like for you to. To immerse yourself in this culture where there's a real value on knowing how to ride a horse, knowing your way around the scene. And you must have not known your way around the scene at all when you started. Was that intimidating?

[Ivan McClellan]

Yeah, absolutely. Like, I mean, the first thing you do is when you meet someone is you shake their hand. And, you know, I met a guy named Robert Crif, and he had hands like 12 grit sandpaper. And my hands are like dragonfly wings because I work in tech and design. And, you know, it's just like the minute that you meet someone, they know that you're not of the culture, but that's okay, that's completely fine. Because they're just as curious about me as I am about them, and they want to know why I'm there and why I'm interested in it.

[Luke Burbank]

When did you add the cowboy hat to the fit?

[Ivan McClellan]

So I was dressing like this, shooting these rodeos, and somebody came up to me and they were like, you can't be up on the bucking shoots. You can't be hanging out on fences dressed like that. You gotta dress the part if you're gonna be here. Huh? And so the next rodeo I came back, I was wearing jeans and a belt and boots and a hat. The first time I wore my hat, I had it on backward. And somebody. It's really difficult.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, like, you know, yeah, honestly, that looks exactly the same.

[Ivan McClellan]

But somebody came up to me and was like, hey, that looked better if you wore it the other way. And I was like, oh, man.

[Luke Burbank]

We're Talking to Ivan McClellan about his new book, 8 Seconds Black Rodeo Culture. The photos in this book are just so spectacular. But the COVID photo, you were telling me backstage, it looks the way that it does because of the particular camera that you're using to take these pictures, which then, when you explain it to me, sounded like you're making your life intentionally way harder.

[Ivan McClellan]

Yeah, yeah. I shoot with a. With a medium format camera, which anybody that does photography knows that that is the exact wrong camera to shoot action with. But when you get a photo right, you get it really right. It's really beautiful. Every other photographer that's at the rodeo has got a long lens and a really fast Canon or a Nikon, and they see me with a short lens, a 35 millimeter lens, and this giant camera, and they're like, what are you doing?

[Luke Burbank]

Because at its most rapid, you can only take a picture every three seconds.

[Ivan McClellan]

Something like that. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

And the entire ride is eight seconds if it goes well.

[Ivan McClellan]

Yeah. So you got two chances to get a photo. Get a photo. Right. But I evolved into this because a lot of what I shoot is behind the scenes. I shoot a lot of portraits. There's a lot of pictures of just people standing with their horse in the book. But then the rodeo happens, and I don't really have anything to do. So I would go in the arena and start taking photos with the same camera. And sometimes I would get it right. And it was. It was just magical.

[Luke Burbank]

Feels like you have gone from being somebody that wasn't particularly familiar with this world to being very, very kind of enmeshed in it to the degree that you're now the rodeo boss for this Juneteenth rodeo that's happening in Portland. What does that actually involve you doing?

[Ivan McClellan]

I own the rodeo. I'm the founder and CEO of the 8Seconds Juneteenth Rodeo. It's the first black rodeo in the Pacific Northwest. Wow. Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of pride in the community here. It's a gathering of the black community. Everybody's welcome. We're going to celebrate the legacy of black cowboys in the Pacific Northwest. But then we also have a heck of a time. I think we're going to play the entire Beyonce album this year.

[Elena Passarello]

Oh, yeah?

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. I was wondering. That's widened the message and maybe the group of people that now have some sense. I mean, the album's called Cowboy Carter. Were you welcoming that because it's more attention, or were you like, hey, I was doing this. I was getting bit by insects in a town in Oklahoma years ago, and now, like, you know, it's Beyonce. So everyone's like, oh, cool. Black cowboy culture.

[Ivan McClellan]

Yeah, that's exactly how I. I am. I'm like, beyonce, you stole my thing. No, no, I think. I think she was riding horses long before I even saw one. But it's. It's nothing but respect and love. The album is incredible. I think. I think it articulates through music what I experienced at that rodeo. It's a mixture of all of these elements of black culture. It's a gumbo, and it's just got a cowboy hat on top of it. But it's a little bit of hip hop. It's a little bit of R and B. That's how it felt. There is. It's like, this isn't so stiff and stuck in one place. It's a collection of inspirations.

[Luke Burbank]

I just have to say, the book is incredible. I'm so excited. I'm picking up a copy after the show because it just. It portrays a version of life that so many people like me and that look like me maybe haven't considered fully. And it's just a really, really special piece of work.

[Ivan McClellan]

Yeah. Much appreciated. It's a real point of pride.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, congratulations on it, and good luck with the rodeo. Coming up, Ivan McClellan, everyone, right here on Livewire. That was photographer Ivan McClellan. His book Eight Seconds is available now, and it's incredible. Highly recommend. Livewire is brought to you by Powell's Books. A Portland institution since 1971. Powell's offers a selection of new and used books in stores and [e-mail]. hey, special thanks this episode to Alex Bezos of Portland, Oregon, and Julie Jones of Beaverton, Oregon. Alex and Julie are part of the Livewire member community, and they are generously supporting our program with a donation each month, which is super important to the financial health of Livewire. So a big shout out to Julie and Alex for keeping Livewire going. This is Livewire, of course. Each week we like to ask our listeners a question. We are going to be diving into the depths of Wikipedia later in the show. So we asked the listeners, tell us about your most recent Wikipedia deep dive. Elena has been collecting up those responses. What are you seeing?

[Elena Passarello]

I am learning so much about our audience members, and it's that I'm fascinated by their deep dives. Like this one from Carl. Carl's latest Wikipedia wormhole involved going through fruit names one by one and reading their etymologies. For example, the coconut was named because the first European to see one said it reminded him of a ghost. I don't know what that means.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, I'm trying to untangle that. I guess I'd never really taken a moment to think about the origin of the name coconut, because that's as good an explanation as any. What's another deep Wikipedia dive someone's been going on?

[Elena Passarello]

Okay, how about this one from Chelsea? Chelsea says, I was trying to figure out if the movie Long Legs would be too scary for me. So I read the Wikipedia page and decided that it probably was because I'm a wimp. But then Chelsea says I ended up reading the pages for a whole bunch of other horror movies that I know I'll never see. So at least I understand what people are talking about. And honestly, the Wikipedia was still too much for me.

[Luke Burbank]

That's a really good idea because I'm also somebody who doesn't really. I don't like scary movies that much. Really? But I. Yeah, I don't know. I was very sheltered as a child. You know, we weren't allowed to watch anything that my parents deemed too, quote, unquote, worldly. So I just never developed that kind of strong constitution for scary movies. But I could probably read the Wikipedia page of, like, Friday the 13th and figure out what's going on. All right, one more deep dive that somebody did in Wikipedia.

[Elena Passarello]

Okay, so this one's from Elizabeth, whose most recent Wikipedia deep dive was the Northeast Interstate Dairy Compact. And that's some kind of a compact, according to Elizabeth, among six New England states agreeing to support the farm price of milk at a higher level than federally mandated minimum prices in the region.

[Luke Burbank]

So they were. They were setting their own price for the. In the Northeast for their. For their dairy products there.

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah, they were. They were. They were revaluing, I guess, their milk.

[Luke Burbank]

That is the kind of fact that I cannot be trusted with, because once I know it, like this listener, I will just be telling everybody that sort of thing. You know, there's nothing worse than Luke Burbank with a little piece of information that he got on a Wikipedia deep dive, because I am not going to shut up about it. Hey, thanks to everyone who sent in a response. Our next guest, speaking of Wikipedia, is a writer, journalist, and Internet personality who studied neuroscience in college, which was also when she started something called the Depths of Wikipedia, which was a social media account to highlight the sort of absurd and delightfully weird entries found on Wikipedia, including Boontling, which was a jargon only spoke in Boonville, California in the 1800s. The project has now grown to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and spawned a variety show. And soon it will be a book. Here is Annie Ruarda on stage at Town hall in Seattle, Washington, on Livewire. Annie, welcome to Livewire.

[Annie Rauada]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[Luke Burbank]

So great to have you here. When you started this project, okay, it was. You were in college still and you just thought, I want to start kind of compiling things that I find interesting from Wikipedia, mostly for your friends.

[Annie Rauada]

Well, Covid hit and so suddenly I had all this free time and I was reading about stolen and missing moon rocks or the timeline of the far future. And I thought, this is so fun. Let me collect these tidbits and put them out there. And at first, mostly, you're right, it was mostly my friends that followed. But eventually it picked up a bigger audience.

[Luke Burbank]

Now, I saw that you did something called wiki racing when you were young.

[Annie Rauada]

I'm definitely not the only one that has done this, but yes, I love the audience response.

[Luke Burbank]

You might be, I don't want to other you, but it doesn't seem like a crowd of wiki racers. What?

[Annie Rauada]

You never know.

[Luke Burbank]

I was unfamiliar. How does wiki racing work?

[Annie Rauada]

You choose a starting line, which is an article, let's say sexually active popes. And then you choose a destination, which is an article, let's say Penelope the Platypus. And then you try to get from the starting line to the destination just by clicking those blue hyperlinks.

[Luke Burbank]

Wow.

[Annie Rauada]

And we would do it during study hall because it. It was sneaky enough that it looks like we might be being productive if.

[Luke Burbank]

They walked by, it would be like, Wikipedia is open.

[Annie Rauada]

So, okay, you know, they're getting the gist of something they're probably learning in school. But no.

[Luke Burbank]

When you were starting out, I'm guessing that you were sort of compiling this stuff. You were just going through Wikipedia looking for interesting things. Now because the feed is so popular, people are sending you stuff constantly. I'm curious, what is it that you're looking for? It's not just, what, a weird piece of information, Right. Is there some other essential quality that makes something great for the depths of Wikipedia?

[Annie Rauada]

It's really great when there's an element of relatability in stories. Penelope the platypus who I mentioned earlier, she's a platypus that we all know.

[Luke Burbank]

Her from sex popes.

[Annie Rauada]

No, she's not. Well, listen, she's the opposite of sexually active. She was the first platypus at the Bronx Zoo to survive for a while. She was there with her partner Cecil, and then she did not want to mate with Cecil, and she pretended to be pregnant to eat extra food. And then she disappeared. And I found that there was an aspect of Penelope that was somewhat relatable. I don't know. Yeah, we've all had sex that we're not particularly fond of. That's okay.

[Elena Passarello]

I often want to eat a lot more than usual and then just disappear. That's February for me.

[Luke Burbank]

We're talking to Annie Rauada from the depths of Wikipedia. I am one of the 1.3 million people that follow you on Instagram, and there are some posts, recent posts, that I would love to get a little bit more of an explanation on the pizza meter. What is that?

[Annie Rauada]

Okay, so the pizza meter was an informal measure of if the US Is about to have a big military action. Basically, there was a Domino's pizza in Washington, D.C. that knew when serious events.

[Elena Passarello]

Were Situation rooms were being.

[Annie Rauada]

Because there were way more pizza orders to the Pentagon.

[Luke Burbank]

So if Rumsfeld is in there just being like, yes, cheesy bread, send it in. We know that maybe something is afoot.

[Annie Rauada]

That's the story. That's what the Domino's Pizza guy said. But then all the examples are from the 90s, because it seems like the US government figured it out and now they probably diversify their takeout orders.

[Luke Burbank]

They're spreading it out amongst the different. This is related, but not what is the Kentucky meat shower.

[Annie Rauada]

That was when meat fell from the sky in the 19th century in Kentucky. And there are newspaper reports of it. And so Wikipedia has used those newspaper reports. To write the article.

[Luke Burbank]

Is there any theories about where the meat got initially sucked up from before being redeposited?

[Annie Rauada]

There's one theory that it's like vultures barfing.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh yes. They have very acidic bars. This is an area of interest for Elena.

[Elena Passarello]

I love a barfing vulture.

[Luke Burbank]

True story. You're actually here in Seattle. Well, to be on our show, but you're also doing some research for this book that you're working on about Wikipedia. You told me backstage that there's somebody in Olympia, Washington area. You want to talk to this person. Why?

[Annie Rauada]

He has made more than 90,000 edits on Wikipedia all doing the same grammar switch. He believes that using comprised of is not ideal for an encyclopedia and that you should use more specific terms like composed of or includes. And so he's done that 90,000 times.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm sorry, that was my trickier. Did you say 90,000 times?

[Annie Rauada]

90000. It's actually. Actually more than that.

[Elena Passarello]

How did you find him?

[Annie Rauada]

There was a little bit of press about him in 2015. That's when people started realizing, oh wait, this guy is actually serious. He's not gonna stop. Also, he has a brother that also fixes grammar mistakes but isn't quite as active.

[Luke Burbank]

Do you happen to know, does the brother have a specific mistake that he likes to correct?

[Elena Passarello]

Yeah. What is his pet peeve comprised of?

[Annie Rauada]

He does, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

[Luke Burbank]

We're talking to Annie Rauada here on Livewire. We're at Town hall in Seattle this week. Annie is the person behind the depths of Wikipedia. I think a lot of people assume that Wikipedia is a total free for all and that anyone can put anything up there. But my impression is that's not exactly how it works. What are the rules? Who can have a Wikipedia page? Who can post on Wikipedia?

[Annie Rauada]

I think that in the past 15 years it has really gone from total free for all to well oiled operation with occasional elements of free for all. Anyone can edit. But there are some pages, the most important ones, maybe the most controversial ones, where the editing is limited to people with say 500 edits. So you have to be a serious person. There are certain powers that are bestowed upon people that have been in the community for a long time. You can be an admin. So there is a hierarchy, there is a lot of respect. And I think that even though there are times where things are wrong on Wikipedia, earlier today I corrected vandalism that said Philippines was a fictional place. That's obviously not true. It was only up for two minutes though. I think that at large it is like the best result of this early Internet experiment.

[Luke Burbank]

Wait, I want to just go back to the Philippines is made up thing. Did you happen to be on the page for the Philippines and note it two minutes after it was posted? Do you have some sort of an alert? Does a W go up into the sky to tell you that something is amiss?

[Annie Rauada]

No. There's a recent changes feed and if you see someone that's never made any contributions before and suddenly they're editing the article about a video game with no summary of what they just changed, then you might have some suspicions. And so I checked that it was the article about a video game and it just happened to sneak in the untrue fact that the Philippines is fictional.

[Luke Burbank]

And so then you just. Do you flag it? Do you report it? Do you call the Philippines?

[Annie Rauada]

No, not. Can you imagine? Hello? I just press undo and then I send them a warning and I say, hey, please don't do that. And usually people don't respond, but sometimes, believe it or not, they say, oh my goodness, I didn't think anyone was paying attention. Thank you. How can I help?

[Luke Burbank]

So they were just. It was a desperate cry for attention, which you answered.

[Annie Rauada]

Some of the very best Wikipedia contributors started as vandals.

[Luke Burbank]

This is Livewire. We are talking to Annie Rauwerda, the founder of Depths of Wikipedia. It's also a live show and it will soon be a book. As you know, maybe better than anyone. There is a lot of stuff on Wikipedia. In fact, as of this month, we just checked this, there are 6,802,658 articles. That's as of press time of us recording this at town hall, which is of course, a lot of stuff to keep organized as such. Sometimes you go on Wikipedia and you're looking for something, something that you thought was like a pretty specific thing, and then you realize it's actually multiple, pretty extensive entries for this thing that you thought was just one thing. And that process of listing the other things is called disambiguation, which I found out from you backstage, is pretty much made up by Wikipedia as a term.

[Annie Rauada]

But it has sort of entered the lexicon.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, beyond Wikipedia, what I'm going to do is I'm going to give you a variety of descriptions that have come up that all refer back to the same term. So these are all the other things that have been basically disambiguated on a Wikipedia post. And you got to try to figure out what the Core thing is what we were kind of looking for. Okay. All right. So this thing that's been disambiguated. It is a brand of automobiles produced by the Ford motor company from 1938 to 2011. It's also a metallic chemical element with the symbol H.G.

[Annie Rauada]

Should I buzz in?

[Luke Burbank]

Yes, Buzz, Buzz. Yeah.

[Sammy Braman]

Mercury.

[Luke Burbank]

That's exactly right. Wow. I didn't have to give you the easy part. A Roman God. It's also listed as. It's disambiguated as the nearest planet to the sun, so. Okay, that was an easy one. We're starting it off easy and then getting easier. How about this one? It's the Anamana. Poetic sound effect, sometimes used for striking someone. It's also the name of an American radical feminist activist group. It's the device that allows wireless devices to connect to a wired network and to each other. It's also a 2020 song by Cardi B featuring Megan Thee Stallion.

[Annie Rauada]

Buzz.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes.

[Annie Rauada]

Is it WAP?

[Luke Burbank]

It's WAP.

[Annie Rauada]

WAP.

[Luke Burbank]

It is WAP.

[Annie Rauada]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

By the way, the feminist group was, I'm told, sort of ironically named Women Against Pornography. That was the other WAP that we were looking for.

[Annie Rauada]

So you could. So if you're part of the women's group wap, you would probably hate the Cardi B. Wap.

[Luke Burbank]

I think you, I believe, against it.

[Annie Rauada]

I'd have to WAP against wap. Fight. Fight.

[Luke Burbank]

You hate to see it. You just absolutely hate to see it. All right, how about this? These are things that are all disambiguated from this particular term. Partly made pottery that has been fired, but not yet glazed. Okay. A drinking game originating in France using a pair of standard dice. If that brought anyone closer to the answer, that is a miracle.

[Annie Rauada]

Yeah, I want to hang out with them if they know these European drinks. Ranking games.

[Luke Burbank]

A minor league baseball team from Montgomery, Alabama. And this one also will not help, but it's fascinating. This is the name for a card carried at all times by whoever the current US President is, containing the gold codes, which are the launch codes for the nuclear weapons. It's called the. Does anybody out there know Town Hall Biscuits?

[Annie Rauada]

What about a fun buttery carb?

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, listen, we are only listing the disambiguation that was on the Wikipedia page. It's not a guessing game based on just. We could have thought of a better hint for Biscuit that wasn't like. How do we give some hints that will lead her towards it? Those are just what they've disambiguated on Wikipedia.

[Annie Rauada]

Maybe I need to go and make some edits tonight.

[Luke Burbank]

Last question, Annie. And like, should people. I know part of where this started for you was the idea that particularly teachers would say to their students, don't use Wikipedia as a source. Is, in your opinion, Wikipedia something that people can put a certain amount of belief in or that they can trust?

[Annie Rauada]

You should be a little bit skeptical of things you read on Wikipedia. That does not mean that there is no use for Wikipedia. It is the largest and most accessible source of knowledge that humanity has ever had. Today in the age of AI, when Google results kind of already are deteriorating, sometimes it's the only search result that you get that's written by humans. I think that Wikipedia is invaluable. It's kind of amazing that it works. No one's getting paid. We're just writing this stuff for free. Sometimes there are mistakes, but hopefully when you see mistakes, you fix them. So I think Wikipedia is incredible because.

[Luke Burbank]

In fact, it is the trusted source to turn to to find out if the Philippines is real. Annie Roued out depths of Wikipedia, everybody. That was Andy Ruarda right here on Livewire. Make sure to check out the depth of Wikipedia on various social media platforms. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarella. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we are going to hear some music from folk fiddle master Sammy Braman live from Pickathon. Stay with us. Livewire is sponsored by Secret Aardvark hot sauce, celebrating 20 years of awesome sauce plus a whole line of hot sauces and marinades. From their classic aardvark habanero hot sauce to their fiery reaper smoked and red scorpion. There's a sauce for every heat lover. Stay connected by following Secret Aardvark on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok for recipes, hot sauce fun and more. Okay, before we get to our musical guests this week, a little preview of what we are doing Next week on the show. We will be celebrating Black History Month with a special episode of Livewire. We're talking to the poet and author Tracy K. Smith about her memoir, To Free the Captives, a plea for the American soul. She'll tell us about how she looks to uncover black strength and community through the lens of her own family, which involved her going to Sunflower, Alabama to trace her roots. Then we're going to talk to the writer and poet Saeed Jones. He'll chat with us about his latest collection of poems. It's called Alive at the End of the world. In it, he explores grief and life and what it means to be a black queer person in a world that, I'm going to be honest, sometimes feels like it's ending. Plus, we'll hear some music from the performer McLeet. That's all coming up next week on Livewire. This is Livewire from prx. Our next guest formed her first string band, the Onlys, at the tender age of 8. Now while this may sound cute, the band which still exists, is actually seriously good. They have toured the US Extensively. They won first place at the Clifftop Appalachian String Band festival back in 2017. And these days she's released a debut solo record. It's called Riveter and it features original fiddle tunes as well as experiments with unconventional fiddling textures and rhythms. We got to chat with Sammy Braman during the Pickathon 2024 music festival. And for those of you who don't know, Pickathon, of course is a four day experiential music festival that brings talent from around the world to an idyllic farm in Happy Valley, Oregon. And I was there. Elena and I can report back. It's idyllic. Take a listen to this. It's our conversation with Sammy Braman recorded at the Lucky Barn from this year's Pickathon Music Festival. You have an album out, Sammy Riveter, which you wrote these amazing original tunes for. But I'm curious how it is for you to write something that both reminds folks of a style of music but is new and yours.

[Sammy Braman]

I feel like it's all very influenced by just my love of traditional fiddle tunes. And I mean, I'm obsessed with learning and uncovering and digging up old tunes from Appalachia or from. I mean, I also am obsessed with Cape Breton fiddle music from Canada and Irish fiddle music and music from Louisiana and Scandinavia. There's just so many different influences that I got to have growing up in the Pacific Northwest.

[Luke Burbank]

I had read that you started playing fiddle at a very, very young age, like maybe six or something.

[Sammy Braman]

Yeah, I was six years old.

[Luke Burbank]

Did you. Was it a fiddle? Was it a violin? Did you have a violin period that turned into a fiddle period?

[Sammy Braman]

It was very fiddle driven. The fiddle and the violin are the same instrument, but I feel like this audience knows that. But it's.

[Luke Burbank]

This host may or may not have known that. Just keep it moving, we'll cut that out. I think it's so interesting because looking at this crowd here in the Lucky Barn, the joy on the faces of everybody hearing this kind of music. Is it's you can't miss it. I don't think there's anybody that could listen to this and not find themselves just feeling emotionally moved. And yet it's still a somewhat niche thing. You know, it's like, if, you know, you know, why is this not the most popular music in America, dominating all genres?

[Sammy Braman]

I don't know. I listen to so much fiddle music, it's embarrassing.

[Luke Burbank]

You're listening for the rest of us.

[Sammy Braman]

Yeah. And I feel like it's dance music to the core. That's like, what the music. The fiddle music in America and in other places is most often tied to a dance tradition. And so that's what you gotta, you know, make the music that makes people wanna dance. And that's a good thing to do with your community.

[Luke Burbank]

You all are from the west coast, everybody in this outfit, and yet now you all live in Nashville.

[Sammy Braman]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

So what's that like?

[Sammy Braman]

Nashville is. It needs more sidewalks and fewer freeways. That's my. Those are my critiques from an urban planning standpoint. Yeah, urban planning standpoint. But musically, it's incredible to be able to go out to hear live music most nights of the week. There's just a lot to take in, and that feels very unique to Nashville. I feel like that's inspiring. And I really wanted to go someplace when I moved there where I was going to be the worst fiddler in the room. And that's been my experience.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, let's hear a little bit more music then. All right. What are we gonna hear?

[Sammy Braman]

This is a tune called Riveter, which is the title track of my album. Thank you all for coming out to this barn and to Pickathon and to Luke for the interview.

[Luke Burbank]

Sa.

[Ivan McClellan]

Sa.

[Sammy Braman]

Thank you so much. Have a good afternoon. Good afternoon.

[Luke Burbank]

That was Sammy Braman right here on Livewire. Her album Riveter is available now. We recorded that at the Lucky Barn as part of this year's Pickathon 2024 music festival. To learn more about the festival, visit pickathon.com or you can follow them on Instagram icathon. And keep an eye out for next year's lineup. That's going to do it for this week's episode of Livewire. A huge thanks to our guests Annie Rueda, Ivan McClellan and Sammy Braman.

[Elena Passarello]

Laura Haddon is our executive producer. Heather D. Michelle is our executive director. And our producer and editor is Melody Savchenko. Leanna Kinderman and Eben Hofer are our technical directors. And our house sound is by Dee Neal Blake. Trey Hester is our Soul assistant editor, and Becky Phillips is our intern. Our house band is Sam Tucker, Ethan Fox, Tucker, Al Alves, and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Trey Hester.

[Luke Burbank]

Additional funding provided by the Oregon Arts Commission, a state agency funded by the state of Oregon and the National Endowment for the Arts. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members Alex Bezos of Portland, Oregon, and Julie Jones of Beaverton, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to livewireradio.org I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Livewire team. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week. Hey there, Livewire listeners. Luke Burbank here. You know how a lot of people, like ring in the new year with a cheers or a toast? That's pretty common. Well, something kind of special is happening here at Livewire this month as we have entered 2025, we have launched a brand new limited podcast series. It's called Damp January. Throughout the month, we are going to be going on like a little journey to try to better understand our relationship with alcohol. And by that I mean my relationship with alcohol and also drinking culture at large. It's such a big part of our society and we wanted to find out more about sort of how it's working for people. We're going to talk to friends and family and cultural luminaries who are just at various points on the booze spectrum. By the way, just a practical heads up, you're gonna see the Livewire podcast logo changed to something new. This is just for the month of January. Do not worry. The regular Livewire episodes that you know and love and crave are still gonna be in your feed every Friday. That's just gonna be alongside a Damp January episode that's gonna drop every Wednesday. We have never tried anything like this before, but I think it is a really interesting project. Like if somebody else made this show, I would listen to it. Okay? But nobody else did. So we're making it and we hope it's interesting to you. It's called Damp January and it's every Wednesday in January.

[Elena Passarello]

From prx.